/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 02 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> does that mean i should stop adding this feature
  4. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Oh, no. No effect on what you're doing.
  5. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Just rejiggering the syntax on my side.
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> k
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  8. # [00:02] <Hixie> what reference should I use for this "specified CSS element reference identifier" term btw?
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> [CSSGENCON]?
  10. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> CSSIMAGES
  11. # [00:03] <Hixie> k
  12. # [00:04] <roc> is there an actual use case for reading back from this map?
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> well presumably it's not unusual for code to reference the current slide
  14. # [00:05] <Hixie> why have the JS and the browser maintain this mapping separately if the browser can just expose the current setting
  15. # [00:05] <Hixie> it's less likely to go out of sync if there's nothing to sync
  16. # [00:05] <roc> because developers are likely to have a variable 'currentSlide' somewhere and find that more natural then using document.cssElementMap['currentSlide']?
  17. # [00:06] <roc> but OK
  18. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Dammit Hixie, your UTF8 decoder does not cater to my needs. I have space-separated binary bytes!
  19. # [00:07] <Hixie> doesn't it support that?
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie> what's your input look like
  21. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> 01010101 01000111 01001010 ...
  22. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> And it takes a trivial amount of effort to convert it to one of your accepted binary input forms!
  23. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Hm, now I've converted to the 0b-prefixed form and selected "Freeform numeric", but it's claiming I didn't provide any bytes.
  24. # [00:12] <Hixie> odd, freeform wfm
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  26. # [00:13] <Hixie> anyway i've added "binary" as an option
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  28. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Huh. Same error still, with the "binary" option. How odd.
  29. # [00:15] <Hixie> paste the start of your data?
  30. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> 01010101 01000111 01001010 01101000 01100100 01000111 01010110
  31. # [00:15] <Hixie> hm
  32. # [00:15] <Hixie> only the first got converted for me
  33. # [00:15] <Hixie> odd
  34. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Hm, all these bytes are in the low half, so if they're text decoding them as utf8 wont' do anything special.
  35. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> I already got gibberish doing a plain ascii conversion.
  36. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> This looks like base64 maybe, though.
  37. # [00:17] <Hixie> ok i got it working again
  38. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> All right, almost certainly base64. Looks like it's now enciphered.
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  41. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Somebody with the java runtime wanna help me out real quick?
  42. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> (Need to run an applet that'll crack a viginere cipher key.)
  43. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Wait... this is rot13.
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  45. # [00:20] <Rik`> TabAtkins: aren't you decoding some Opera stuff ? :)
  46. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  47. # [00:21] <Rik`> I have a Python one liner on my twitter account if you need :)
  48. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Finished already. ^_^
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  62. # [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: checked in
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  65. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> What section is it in?
  66. # [01:17] <Hixie> search for cssElementMap
  67. # [01:17] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#dom-document-csselementmap
  68. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Sigh. To do that I have to load the single-page version.
  69. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Ah, that works.
  70. # [01:17] <Hixie> (it's in the DOM tree accessors section, for lack of a better place to put it)
  71. # [01:18] <Hixie> the single-page version works fine with chrome, fwiw
  72. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> You messed up a <dfn> tag in the first sentence.
  73. # [01:18] <Hixie> oops
  74. # [01:18] <Hixie> will fix
  75. # [01:18] <Hixie> thanks
  76. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Looks good to me, Hixie. Thanks.
  77. # [01:20] <Hixie> np
  78. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Hm. The "specified" seems redundant. Wanna drop that?
  79. # [01:21] <Hixie> sure
  80. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, one thing.
  81. # [01:23] <Hixie> yes?
  82. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Only img, canvas, and video should be assignable to the map while out-of-document.
  83. # [01:23] <Hixie> can't enforce that since you can add it to the map and then remove an element
  84. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Any other element shouldn't be assignable while out-of-document, and should remove itself from the map if removed from teh doc.
  85. # [01:24] <Hixie> that would be rather confusing -- better to just make it that a reference to an unusable element gets ignored on the CSS side, imho
  86. # [01:24] <Hixie> or i can make those elements not define the mapping for you
  87. # [01:24] <Hixie> but still have them be in the API's map
  88. # [01:25] <Hixie> it'd be confusing because you don't want it to matter whether you create, then add to the list, then append to the doc, or create, then append, then add to hte list
  89. # [01:25] <Hixie> and you don't want things to break when all you're doing is moving an element around the dom (which involves being removed from the doc briefly)
  90. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah, makes sense. So yeah, make it so they don't map to the CSS identifier while not in the document.
  91. # [01:25] <Hixie> k
  92. # [01:26] <Hixie> img, video, canvas is a rather arbitrary list
  93. # [01:26] <Hixie> what about <input type=image>, <object>, <embed>...?
  94. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> <input type=image>, sure. object, embed, iframe I'm not sure of right now - I've already asked about them on the list.
  95. # [01:27] <TabAtkins> I think the answer should be "yes", though there are wrinkles, like iframes not loading until they're added to the document.
  96. # [01:28] <Hixie> do i have to have the HTML side also handle the case of the <img> element's bitmap not being available yet?
  97. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> It should just be any element whos rendering is unaffected by surrounding elements by default.
  98. # [01:28] <Hixie> or of a <canvas> with height=0?
  99. # [01:28] <Hixie> it really seems best to have this be all handled in the CSS side
  100. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> No, CSS should handle that with "with an appearance exactly equivalent to that of the referenced element"
  101. # [01:28] <Hixie> well then if you can handle <img alt="x" src="bogus"> out of doc why can't you handle <span>x</span>?
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  103. # [01:29] <Hixie> battery's dying, gotta go. will check in once i'm near power again.
  104. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> The problem with doing this on the CSS side is that CSS has no notion of elements outside the document. So I'm not sure how to talk about them.
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  112. # [01:41] <karlcow> http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/layout_tables/history.htm
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  129. # [02:29] <karlcow> about implementing current practices - http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/HTML-WG/html-wg-94q3.messages/0042.html
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  133. # [02:43] <karlcow> Where ... might be any number of idioms, including nothing at all, i.e.
  134. # [02:43] <karlcow> <!DOCTYPE HTML>
  135. # [02:43] <karlcow> I would take this declaration to mean "gimme the current version of the
  136. # [02:43] <karlcow> HTML DTD."
  137. # [02:43] <karlcow> in http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/HTML-WG/html-wg-94q3.messages/0056.html
  138. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> Heh, that's exactly what it means now, except without the whole nasty DTD business. ^_^
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  141. # [02:54] <karlcow> TabAtkins, I spend a bit of time in the archives on a regular basis. And the discussions are *always* the same.
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  146. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> we really should just write a separate spec for <!doctype html>
  147. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> and take it to Rec
  148. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> unattached from HTML5
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  150. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> which would enable anybody to use it on any doc they wanted for whatever purpose they wanted
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  152. # [03:08] <karlcow> MikeSmith: ahahaha :D
  153. # [03:08] <TabAtkins> Man, this is a fascinating read: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-CSS-potential-19981210
  154. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> Most of it is stuff we're either just now doing, or plan to do in the very near future.
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  156. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> They had the future of CSS mapped out over a decade ago. ^_^
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  159. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> (Seriously, there's very little that we're doing now or plan to do soon that isn't already on the list.)
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  162. # [03:10] <MikeSmith_> karlcow: really -- because as TabAtkins said, it really has nothing to do with any DTD at all
  163. # [03:11] <MikeSmith_> it's not asking for a gimme of anything
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  166. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> and it's not asserting the document is an HTML5 document
  167. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> if it's asserting anything at all, it's simply that the document is an HTML document, period
  168. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> what the spec should say is that it's only needed to prevent UAs from processing the document in quirks mode
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  170. # [03:14] <TabAtkins> Remember - all sequences of bytes are HTML documents. They may not be valid, but they can be processed as HTML.
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  173. # [03:25] <karlcow> [21:02] <MikeSmith> which would enable anybody to use it on any doc they wanted for whatever purpose they wanted
  174. # [03:25] <karlcow> I thought you were proposing doctype html for word, wordperfect, multimate and wordstar documents
  175. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> ah, no
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  178. # [03:28] <karlcow> hmm I haven't found a page which explains the history mess of html mailing lists such as w3c and ietf one running in parallel.
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  183. # [03:45] <karlcow> MikeSmith: :)))) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2010JulSep/0001.html
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  186. # [03:54] <karlcow> ok that is a start :) not perfect but still gives a way to people to find their ways http://www.w3.org/html/wiki/HTML_Mailing_Lists
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  190. # [04:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't understand what "with an appearance exactly equivalent to that of the referenced element" means. Consider an inline element, what is its appearance?
  191. # [04:03] <Hixie> give line breaking, e.g.
  192. # [04:03] <Hixie> or consider an element with a top-margin collapsed with a larger following margin -- what is its appearance? specifically, what is its origin?
  193. # [04:03] <Hixie> or consider an element with display:runin
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  195. # [04:06] <roc> In Gecko, we draw the border-box of the first CSS box
  196. # [04:07] <roc> er wrong
  197. # [04:07] <oojacoboo> is it really recommended not to use quote with html attributes?
  198. # [04:07] <oojacoboo> quotes*
  199. # [04:08] <roc> what we do is
  200. # [04:08] <roc> we take all the CSS boxes for the element
  201. # [04:08] <roc> we compute the bounding box that contains all those CSS boxes
  202. # [04:08] <boogyman> oojacoboo: depends on the context, single word attribute values its acceptable, multi-word values must be encapsulated by quotes
  203. # [04:08] <boogyman> it's*
  204. # [04:09] <roc> er, the bounding box is the union of all the border-boxes of the CSS boxes
  205. # [04:09] <oojacoboo> I would think that just for semantics and good use, using them all the time, would be the most appropriate
  206. # [04:09] <roc> that defines the image bounds
  207. # [04:09] <boogyman> however in the spirit of consistent coding technique, I always use quotes and lower-case
  208. # [04:09] <oojacoboo> html5 spec is littered with attributes without quotes
  209. # [04:09] <roc> then we render all the CSS boxes into it in flow order
  210. # [04:10] <othermaciej> use of quotes or not is a matter of taste
  211. # [04:10] <othermaciej> html5 examples strive to use a variety of styles, to avoid expressing an opinion on what is best
  212. # [04:10] <othermaciej> particular quoting conventions are not more or less semantic
  213. # [04:11] <oojacoboo> othermaciej: then what is it?
  214. # [04:11] <othermaciej> what is what?
  215. # [04:11] <oojacoboo> the use or not use of quotes
  216. # [04:11] <othermaciej> it is a matter of taste
  217. # [04:11] <othermaciej> like I said
  218. # [04:11] <oojacoboo> it's not a matter of taste or semantics, what is it?
  219. # [04:11] <oojacoboo> you said it's NOT
  220. # [04:11] <othermaciej> no, I said:
  221. # [04:11] <othermaciej> "use of quotes or not is a matter of taste"
  222. # [04:12] <oojacoboo> :P
  223. # [04:12] <boogyman> oojacoboo: <element class=one> and <element class="one"> are both acceptable, however <element class=one two> and <element class="one two"> have separate meanings
  224. # [04:12] <othermaciej> you sometimes need quotes for certain values
  225. # [04:12] <oojacoboo> othermaciej: don't write confusing shit like that at this hour ;)
  226. # [04:12] <othermaciej> it's just like the Unix shell
  227. # [04:12] <oojacoboo> boogyman: right
  228. # [04:12] <othermaciej> sometimes you need quotes around command parameters
  229. # [04:12] <oojacoboo> yea
  230. # [04:12] <othermaciej> much of the time you don't
  231. # [04:12] <othermaciej> you can still use them when you don't need them
  232. # [04:12] <oojacoboo> I'll stick with my anal quoting routine :)
  233. # [04:13] <othermaciej> most people choose not to
  234. # [04:13] <othermaciej> in HTML, some people feel you should quote even when you don't need to
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  236. # [04:13] <oojacoboo> yea, like me
  237. # [04:13] <othermaciej> others feel you should quote only when needed
  238. # [04:13] <othermaciej> HTML5 lets you do it either way
  239. # [04:13] <oojacoboo> anyone here familiar with the <figcaption> element?
  240. # [04:14] <oojacoboo> I was trying to get some specifics on it's intent for block level use
  241. # [04:15] <oojacoboo> the spec is extremely vague on this element, so far, I've just gone ahead and done it the way I think it should be, but if someone has some intimate knowledge into this element, I'd love to ehar it
  242. # [04:15] <oojacoboo> hear*
  243. # [04:15] <oojacoboo> http://dev.rentpost.com/managers (you'll see where I have used it in the <figure> at near the bottom on this page
  244. # [04:15] <oojacoboo> +)
  245. # [04:15] <Hixie> <figcaption> is allowed in one place only, and that's as a child of <figure>
  246. # [04:16] <oojacoboo> ummm... duh ;)
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  249. # [04:26] <oojacoboo> curious on all the new input type values. How are the current UAs interpreting these?
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  251. # [04:26] <oojacoboo> are there any backward compatibility techniques
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  260. # [04:39] <Hixie> oojacoboo: they're doing some stuff on them, not great so far
  261. # [04:40] <Hixie> oojacoboo: the back compat story is that older browsers treat them type type=text
  262. # [04:40] <oojacoboo> mmm, ok
  263. # [04:40] <oojacoboo> I was considering trying to code up some forms with html5, but I think that's probably going to be a waste at this time
  264. # [04:41] <oojacoboo> maybe type would be ok to use if they fall back to "text"
  265. # [04:41] <oojacoboo> at least for email on mobile you might not get the uppercase default onFocus
  266. # [04:44] <oojacoboo> Hixie: do you have any resources on backward compatibility at least for safe use, even if you have to replicate functionality in certain instances
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  268. # [04:56] <Hixie> not off-hand
  269. # [04:56] <Hixie> diveintohtml5.org might have some useful stuff
  270. # [04:56] <oojacoboo> are people using things like modernizr and just using multiple form elements?
  271. # [04:57] <oojacoboo> not really wanting to write the html twice, doubling the markup
  272. # [04:57] <boogyman> oojacoboo: how about you do a couple of simple test cases before making templates for your "production" site
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  274. # [04:58] <oojacoboo> boogyman: what do you mean?
  275. # [04:58] <oojacoboo> I don't plan on coding this straight to production, we do have a dev and stage server...
  276. # [04:59] <boogyman> create a simple html example and test in some user-agents
  277. # [04:59] <oojacoboo> I'd prefer not to waste the time coding up a bunch of things that someone already has the answer on
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  287. # [05:27] <Hixie> roc: except for <img>, <video>, and <canvas>, right?
  288. # [05:28] <Hixie> roc: my point was just that the css spec would have to define all this, so having the css spec define what happens when the referenced element is an <img> with broken image data, or a <video> that's still spooling, or a <canvas> with height=0, etc, is something that would have to be defined in css anyway
  289. # [05:28] <Hixie> roc: so it's not something the html spec should define
  290. # [05:28] <roc> sure
  291. # [05:28] <roc> we actually treat <video>/<canvas>/<img> differently depending on whether they have CSS boxes or not
  292. # [05:28] <Hixie> makes sense
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  307. # [06:15] <oojacoboo> Hixie: you write the lang type for the spec?
  308. # [06:15] <oojacoboo> html lang="en-US-x-hixie"
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  328. # [06:53] <jamesr_> Hixie: you there? i'm trying to figure out how to upload something to your live dom viewer
  329. # [06:54] <jamesr_> i want to look at a test page i've created on an ipad
  330. # [06:54] <jamesr_> i tried clicking 'upload' and have no idea what happened
  331. # [06:55] <jamesr_> oh i probably want 'save'
  332. # [07:03] <jamesr_> figured it out!
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  343. # [07:36] <Hixie> oojacoboo: i write the spec
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  345. # [07:37] <jacobolus> oojacoboo: it's sort of a joke I think :)
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  347. # [07:52] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/News/2010.html#entry-8967
  348. # [07:52] <hsivonen> I'm very confused by that announcement. When did the election start?
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  350. # [07:53] <hsivonen> I thought just a couple of days ago, JeniT was contemplating whether to run for the election
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  370. # [09:07] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there was a nomination period, it just ended
  371. # [09:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: apparently, the number of nominees was the same as the number of seats up for election, thus making it a bit of a banana republic election
  372. # [09:08] <jamesr_> everyone wore a neutral-colored fleece and a scarf?
  373. # [09:09] <othermaciej> shows how much you know
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  375. # [09:10] <othermaciej> banana republic is all about semi-desaturated non-primary tones
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  377. # [09:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I see. It would have been helpful for the announcement to say that it was an election without votes.
  378. # [09:15] <hsivonen> I guess it also means that Jeni Tennison chose not to run.
  379. # [09:16] <othermaciej> I guess so
  380. # [09:16] <othermaciej> there would have been more nominees, but I couldn't convince Dave Singer to nominate people who explicitly said they'd refuse
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  388. # [09:45] <hsivonen> good to see some chairing on bugs that attempted to circumvent the WG Decision on ISSUE-30
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  393. # [10:02] * asmodai eyes the latest chrome dev build
  394. # [10:04] <asmodai> It's not even loading the html5test.com test anymore :|
  395. # [10:06] <hsivonen> Chrome no longer supports HTML5!11!11!11111!!!1
  396. # [10:08] <asmodai> hsivonen: yea :)
  397. # [10:09] <asmodai> anyway
  398. # [10:09] <asmodai> so me and my colleagues are wondering wtf WebSQL stopped
  399. # [10:09] <asmodai> I mean, isn't it a good thing if all vendors settled on an implementation?
  400. # [10:09] <asmodai> So what's so much a problem about them all using SQLite?
  401. # [10:13] <asmodai> Mmm, funny, same version of Chrome on Mac works
  402. # [10:18] <asmodai> aha, chrome --disable-accelerated-compositing makes it work on Windows at least
  403. # [10:20] <hsivonen> asmodai: Staying compatible with the version of SQLite that Safari used for the JS-exposed SQL database isn't a goal of the SQLite project
  404. # [10:20] <hsivonen> asmodai: thus, keeping compatibility will potentially involve forking SQLite and being on the hook for security patches independently
  405. # [10:22] <asmodai> hsivonen: ok, I can understand that not being a goal of SQLite, but it shouldn't be an issue if some fork for webbrowsers was available? Would only ease maintenance for all vendors if they cooperated on that. Maybe I just see things too rose-coloured :)
  406. # [10:22] <hsivonen> asmodai: also, it's considered healthy that a feature practically requires all vendors to ship the same code
  407. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> unhealthy? :)
  408. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: oops. s/healthy/UNhealthy/
  409. # [10:23] <hsivonen> I think gzip might be an area where everyone ships the same code, but it's not clear if everyone *has* to
  410. # [10:23] <hsivonen> for PNG, everyone probably ships the same code, but probably wouldn't have to
  411. # [10:24] <hsivonen> investigating how realistic it would be to ship a JFIF impl. other than the Independent JPEG Group's would be an interesting exercise
  412. # [10:25] <asmodai> s/gzip/zlib/
  413. # [10:25] <asmodai> At least, I see more acknowledgements for zlib rather than gzip ;)
  414. # [10:25] <hsivonen> but at least the zlib project itself aims to keep compatibility
  415. # [10:25] <asmodai> fair enough
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  438. # [11:38] * jgraham notes that if you have <div class="wrap1">…<div class=wrap8> all nested inside each other, you are probably doing it wrong
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  440. # [11:48] * Workshiva endorses the idea of w3c member archives on wikileaks
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  444. # [11:55] <jgraham> Seems kinda dull for them. This week on wikileaks: New secret emails reveal that Sir Tim Berners-Lee prefers Fudge Ice Cream to Vanilla"
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  448. # [12:03] <zcorpan> that's what they discuss in TAG
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  453. # [12:29] <asmodai> jgraham: sort of like: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Wikileaks-Cables-Reveal-That-Canada-Is-Boring-2668
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  473. # [13:44] <annevk> ooh, the TAG thing was not even an election? hahaha
  474. # [13:46] <jgraham> annevk: You should "stand" next time
  475. # [13:46] <jgraham> cat amongst the pigeons
  476. # [13:46] <annevk> Maciej threatened to get me nominated during TPAC
  477. # [13:46] <annevk> I have since been wondering what I have done to upset him
  478. # [13:51] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to remember if removing a script from the DOM before it has been executed resets 'already started' in IE and Opera?
  479. # [13:53] <hsivonen> now that I'm implementing execution prevention for scripts that have changed docs between "run" and "execute", it would kinda make sense to clone the IE/Opera behavior of canceling a script and unblocking the parser if a pending script is removed from the doc
  480. # [13:56] <hsivonen> awesome. the m-c was closed because a test tried to load .swf from zombo.com
  481. # [13:56] <jgraham> tests + external servers === evil
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  484. # [14:00] <gsnedders> m-c?
  485. # [14:00] <jgraham> mozilla-central
  486. # [14:00] <jgraham> I assume
  487. # [14:00] <annevk> hsivonen, not using http://html5zombo.com/ ?!
  488. # [14:06] <hsivonen> html5zombo.com is superior to zombo.com except as a plug-in test case
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  493. # [14:22] <karlcow> annevk: there is still a chance. The last seat is to be nominated by tim ;)
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  509. # [14:46] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder what MikeSmith's plan regarding build.py updating was
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  512. # [14:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I started hacking on build.py
  513. # [14:55] <annevk> I hate resolving URLs across multiple windows
  514. # [14:55] <annevk> before XMLHttpRequest I never even contemplated stuff like self[0].EventSource
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  516. # [14:57] <annevk> kind of funny that I suspected the "first script" to be incorrect and the first time I run an actual test it does not appear to match implementations
  517. # [14:57] <annevk> I am disappoint
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  528. # [15:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've migrated build.py over.
  529. # [15:40] <hsivonen> next step is to detect if the user has MQ enabled and use hg pull --rebase instead of --update if so
  530. # [15:40] <hsivonen> but not today
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  541. # [16:04] <annevk> 'When Microsoft says "HTML6," I hear "X-UA-Compatible-We-Fucking-Mean-It-This-Time."'
  542. # [16:04] <annevk> -- @diveintomark
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  557. # [16:27] <annevk> hsivonen, btw, we have our own image code
  558. # [16:27] <annevk> hsivonen, re discussion earlier today
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  679. # [20:11] <annevk> Used <s> in a blog post
  680. # [20:11] <annevk> had to hack my blog software
  681. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> jgraham, s/DOM3 //
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  684. # [20:26] <annevk> anyone with ideas on structuring weblog archives?
  685. # [20:26] <annevk> especially for blogs without tags
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  687. # [20:26] <hober> annevk: http://diveintomark.org/archives comes to mind
  688. # [20:26] <Philip`> annevk: Add a link to your favourite search engine
  689. # [20:27] <Philip`> Nobody's going to bother reading the archives any other way
  690. # [20:27] <annevk> search engines are
  691. # [20:27] <annevk> and I am too
  692. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> http://ln.hixie.ch/?command=index comes too mind
  693. # [20:27] <annevk> hober, yeah, thinking about that
  694. # [20:27] <annevk> oh, Hixie's one should be a lot easier
  695. # [20:28] <annevk> but it'll be a long... very long
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  697. # [20:29] <annevk> there's 2500 entries
  698. # [20:29] <annevk> (this includes links)
  699. # [20:29] <annevk> (called HREF at one point)
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  702. # [20:34] <zcorpan> have one page for each year
  703. # [20:34] <annevk> I guess I should start with the yearly and monthly pages indeed
  704. # [20:35] <annevk> yearly already exists, but currently excludes link posts
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  707. # [20:38] <zcorpan> oh. maybe http://annevankesteren.nl/archives could list the years instead of the months then?
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  714. # [20:45] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah prolly
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  716. # [20:46] <karlcow> annevk: what do you mean by structuring archives
  717. # [20:46] <karlcow> access to old entries? I do this http://www.la-grange.net/map
  718. # [20:47] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2009/ http://www.la-grange.net/2009/01/
  719. # [20:47] <annevk> yeah, I suspect I will do something like that
  720. # [20:47] <annevk> I like how your archives match the style of the site at the time
  721. # [20:48] <annevk> I can probably not do that
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  724. # [20:49] <karlcow> annevk: yes I always kept the old style. There are part of the history of the content.
  725. # [20:50] <karlcow> I have a few broken links to fix here and there.
  726. # [20:51] <annevk> such a rebel
  727. # [20:51] <annevk> content != style karlcow
  728. # [20:51] <annevk> after so many years at the W3C you should know
  729. # [20:51] <karlcow> hehe
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  731. # [20:51] <karlcow> but style is part of the memories ;)
  732. # [20:52] <annevk> no, you're right
  733. # [20:52] <annevk> my content is stored in a dumb database, rather than something smart like HTML
  734. # [20:52] <karlcow> hehe
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  751. # [21:22] <karlcow> " I see my job as making the Mozilla developer outreach channels the Switzerland of HTML5, explaining and showing how to get all the cool new things to work across browsers, platforms and markets." -- http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/html5_mozilla_and_the_future_of_the_web.php
  752. # [21:22] <karlcow> does it involve secret funds?
  753. # [21:24] <annevk> ok, yearly archives are now better
  754. # [21:24] <annevk> including a special style sheet for 2004 and 2005
  755. # [21:24] <annevk> (because of HREF)
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  758. # [21:26] <miketaylr> seems like a standards body would be a better switzerland
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  761. # [21:32] <annevk> oh yes http://annevankesteren.nl/archives
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  763. # [21:34] <karlcow> annevk: cool
  764. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/01/multicol-spacer
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  788. # [22:24] <oojacoboo> anyone familiar with the pseudo class that targets the red outline/border for required input elements with html5
  789. # [22:24] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.17.47)
  790. # [22:25] <oojacoboo> particularly seems to be an incredible eye sore with gecko/-moz
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  794. # [22:26] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  795. # [22:26] <oojacoboo> it's way too loud/in-your-face, whomever made the decision that that'd be the best method of indicated a required field either did it b/c they already had the code for :focus or just doesn't know what they are doing
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  798. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> -moz-box-shadow: none?
  799. # [22:27] <oojacoboo> is that the style element?
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  803. # [22:27] <oojacoboo> what's the pseudo class?
  804. # [22:27] <oojacoboo> :required ?
  805. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> :invalid, I guess
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  807. # [22:27] <oojacoboo> I don't mind having this after a submit, but sitting before is insane
  808. # [22:28] <oojacoboo> I actually want it after a submit
  809. # [22:28] <oojacoboo> but not before!
  810. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> volkmar would know, but we might be fixing that
  811. # [22:28] <oojacoboo> something not so loud, PLEASE!
  812. # [22:29] <oojacoboo> it ruins the on page eye flow and funneling
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  815. # [22:31] <oojacoboo> Ms2ger: that did the trick though, thanks
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  843. # [23:40] <oojacoboo> anyone know what the style element is for the annoying 2px border around <button> on webkit?
  844. # [23:40] <oojacoboo> a border: 0 !important won't even nix it
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  847. # [23:50] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: I don't see a border on => data:text/html,<button style="border:0">NoBorder
  848. # [23:51] <JoePeck> do you have a sample page / picture?
  849. # [23:51] <oojacoboo> it's not a "border" really, I think it's the accessibility border
  850. # [23:51] <oojacoboo> although, it kicks down the element 2px which I do not want it doing
  851. # [23:52] <oojacoboo> inspector says the ua stylesheet is styling border though
  852. # [23:52] <oojacoboo> which can't be overridden
  853. # [23:52] <JoePeck> hmm, "-webkit-box-sizing: border-box;" help at all? Just a thought. I am not familiar with accessibility items
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  855. # [23:52] <oojacoboo> tried that, nope
  856. # [23:52] <oojacoboo> that's the default for it anyway
  857. # [23:52] <oojacoboo> one second, I can get an example
  858. # [23:56] <oojacoboo> http://dev.rentpost.com/managers @ JoePeck
  859. # [23:56] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1465.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  860. # [23:56] <oojacoboo> JoePeck: see the button at the bottom with the contact form, notice how in webkit it's positioned lower
  861. # [23:58] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: it has a margin of 2px
  862. # [23:59] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: although I don't know where it comes from
  863. # [23:59] <oojacoboo> it's not a margin, I don't think so
  864. # [23:59] <oojacoboo> almost 100% certain
  865. # [23:59] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: setting margin:0 made it look fine in my Safari
  866. # [23:59] <oojacoboo> :/
  867. # [23:59] <oojacoboo> sec
  868. # [23:59] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: check the "Metrics" section of the inspector
  869. # [23:59] <oojacoboo> yea
  870. # Session Close: Fri Dec 03 00:00:00 2010

The end :)