/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-04 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 04 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: porneL (~kl@96.95.187.81.in-addr.arpa) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  4. # [00:08] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  5. # [00:08] * Quits: cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-99-62-185-125.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  6. # [00:10] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-gppwfklltzhbfpij)
  7. # [00:18] * Joins: Jon_Neal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  8. # [00:20] * Joins: cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-76-254-71-89.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  9. # [00:21] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  10. # [00:25] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-65-39.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  11. # [00:26] * Quits: Jon_Neal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  12. # [00:28] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  13. # [00:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-164-149.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  14. # [00:28] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  15. # [00:33] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:dc72:144e:8e9c:3a92) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  16. # [00:35] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@82.76.237.249) (Remote host closed the connection)
  17. # [00:42] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  18. # [00:47] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  19. # [00:48] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  20. # [00:48] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  21. # [00:50] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  22. # [01:09] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: davidwalsh)
  23. # [01:16] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: zzzzleepy!)
  24. # [01:18] * Quits: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-mmfhzjontxnrepxh) (Quit: dave_levin)
  25. # [01:31] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.135)
  26. # [01:38] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYYMYDCLXXIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  27. # [01:40] * Quits: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-gppwfklltzhbfpij) (Quit: ojan)
  28. # [01:55] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  29. # [01:57] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  30. # [01:57] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  31. # [01:59] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@4.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  32. # [02:00] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  33. # [02:01] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@74-95-43-121-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: oknoway)
  34. # [02:01] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYYMYDCLXXIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  35. # [02:01] * Joins: Aleoss (~AleossIRC@204-83-16-179.regn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca)
  36. # [02:04] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  37. # [02:10] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc6-seac20-2-0-cust102.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  38. # [02:10] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@ool-45719f33.dyn.optonline.net)
  39. # [02:10] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@ool-45719f33.dyn.optonline.net) (Changing host)
  40. # [02:10] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  41. # [02:25] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  42. # [02:27] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.203.15.167) (Quit: ap)
  43. # [02:32] * Parts: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  44. # [02:46] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-qabvzqvxxlzheags) (Remote host closed the connection)
  45. # [02:49] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:a4ae:76c0:bf6e:4d94)
  46. # [02:51] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.135) (Quit: estes)
  47. # [02:56] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:a4ae:76c0:bf6e:4d94) (Quit: mdelaney)
  48. # [02:57] * Joins: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  49. # [02:58] * Quits: oknoway (~oknoway@173-8-201-137-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Client Quit)
  50. # [03:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.168) (Quit: othermaciej)
  51. # [03:14] * Quits: Aleoss (~AleossIRC@204-83-16-179.regn.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca) (Quit: We love you, Dark Continent! Good night!)
  52. # [03:19] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1465.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  53. # [03:27] <oojacoboo> are there any plans to allow for font type specific styling?
  54. # [03:27] <oojacoboo> other than through the use of @font-face?
  55. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: What do you mean?
  56. # [03:28] <oojacoboo> I had a specific case the other day where I had two fonts that rendered different x-heights and by using something like font-size-adjust, I could have corrected this issue, if I could have applied to a specific font
  57. # [03:28] <TabAtkins> What, did you need font-size-adjust to apply to one and not the other? I dont' understand how that would be useful.
  58. # [03:28] <oojacoboo> would you just use @font-face and local?
  59. # [03:29] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: b/c fonts differ in their default x-height renderings
  60. # [03:29] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  61. # [03:30] <TabAtkins> Right. Taht's what font-size-adjust is for - it resizes fonts so that all their x-heights match.
  62. # [03:30] <oojacoboo> so, while I might want to push Helvetica Neue on the Mac and another on the PC, for a matter of breaking the page layout, often times, you need to alter one or the other font's x-height value
  63. # [03:30] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: ah... so it's absolute, not relative?
  64. # [03:31] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure exactly what you eman by that, so I'll instead just quickly explain what f-s-a does.
  65. # [03:32] <TabAtkins> f-s-a takes a number between 0 and 1. It multiplies that by the declared font-size of the element to get a desired x-height. It then adjusts the *used* font-size for all the fonts so that their x-height matches that number.
  66. # [03:33] <oojacoboo> ah ha, perfect
  67. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> There's plans to also add an 'auto' value that somehow figures out what the 'default' font is supposed to be, and figures out what the f-s-a number should be based on that font's x-height.
  68. # [03:33] <oojacoboo> thanks for explaining that
  69. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> No problem.
  70. # [03:33] * Quits: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k459.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  71. # [03:33] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: an auto would kick ass ;)
  72. # [03:34] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-vkopgdmifzoztbet) (Quit: Lost terminal)
  73. # [03:38] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@99-59-125-34.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  74. # [03:46] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-kkazlvmljpnhueyt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  75. # [03:50] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.104.22)
  76. # [03:53] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  77. # [04:03] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  78. # [04:16] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@4.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  79. # [04:19] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@4.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  80. # [04:32] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  81. # [04:32] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  82. # [04:37] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.104.22) (Remote host closed the connection)
  83. # [04:44] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  84. # [04:45] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  85. # [04:45] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-whtoguqxogydejtb) (Quit: jamesr_)
  86. # [04:47] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  87. # [04:51] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  88. # [04:53] * Quits: brendaneich (~brendanei@nat/mozilla/x-vqawxhanziopbqcd) (Quit: brendaneich)
  89. # [05:01] * Joins: BlueG (~blue@c-69-246-159-182.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
  90. # [05:29] * Quits: yusukes (~yusukes@2401:fa00:4:1000:224:81ff:fec1:6444) (Remote host closed the connection)
  91. # [05:40] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com)
  92. # [06:12] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  93. # [06:12] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Changing host)
  94. # [06:12] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  95. # [06:13] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  96. # [06:20] * Joins: brendaneich (~brendanei@adsl-71-131-200-57.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)
  97. # [06:29] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-65-39.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  98. # [06:38] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  99. # [06:45] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-52-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  100. # [06:57] <BlueG> Has webm reintroduced consideration of standardizing on a video codec for html5?
  101. # [06:59] <oojacoboo> I thought h.264 was the standard?
  102. # [07:00] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:ea06:88ff:feca:2f45) (Quit: weinig)
  103. # [07:12] <BlueG> oojacoboo: My understanding was that at some point it was in the draft to specify ogg theora, but that it was removed because of the debate between theora getting poor compression/quality while h.264 was patent-encumbered.
  104. # [07:14] <BlueG> But vp8 in the webm format is said to be comparable to h.264 in terms of compression and quality, and it is now unencumbered by patents.
  105. # [07:14] <oojacoboo> BlueG: but h.264 has such great adoption so far with Apple behind it, I doubt it will change
  106. # [07:17] <BlueG> oojacoboo: Hrmmm, I don't know, theora already has significantly wider native support than h.264, and webm will probably soon catch up. Firefox will probably never support h.264.
  107. # [07:18] <oojacoboo> maybe, I'm not a huge guy, but all I come across is h.264
  108. # [07:18] <oojacoboo> of course, I am a mac user, so maybe that explains it
  109. # [07:18] <oojacoboo> huge video guy*
  110. # [07:19] <oojacoboo> damn it's late :/
  111. # [07:19] <BlueG> Well of course Apple has been pushing h.264, which they have a patent stake in.
  112. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> BlueG: the question of the quality of theora did not factor into the decision to remove mention of it from the spec
  113. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> the issue is that we had browser implementors who are not planning to implement support for it
  114. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> and we still do not have any single codec that every browser project is willing to add support for
  115. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> and they are not going to implement support for a codec just because the spec tries to mandate it
  116. # [07:22] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a) (Quit: -)
  117. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> the spec largely reflects what implementors are actually willing to implement
  118. # [07:23] <BlueG> But looking at visitor stats from a blog I have been working with recently, about 44% of users had a browser natively supporting theora (Firefox, Chrome, Opera) while only about 27% had support for h.264 (Safari and Chrome)
  119. # [07:23] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  120. # [07:23] <oojacoboo> MikeSmith: funny how that works
  121. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> BlueG: it's not a popularity contest :)
  122. # [07:24] <oojacoboo> BlueG: when it comes to the web h.264 rules, and much of html5 is revolving around that
  123. # [07:24] <oojacoboo> s/web/mobile
  124. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> oojacoboo: not funny… sad
  125. # [07:24] <oojacoboo> wtf is wrong with me tonight
  126. # [07:25] <BlueG> At this point it seems that Firefox, Chrome, and Opera will implement webm, IE will support it the codec is installed separately (Will it come with h.264? I don't remember, or does that have to be installed too? I don't recall.) Safari seems to be only major holdout that won't implement webm at all.
  127. # [07:25] <oojacoboo> MikeSmith: sarcasm ;)
  128. # [07:27] <BlueG> MikeSmith: I was providing those stats for the benefit of oojacoboo, simply saying that theora currently has wider support in browsers than h.264.
  129. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  130. # [07:27] <oojacoboo> BlueG: but I look to mobile mostly as a base
  131. # [07:28] <oojacoboo> since that's where most of the push comes from anyway
  132. # [07:29] <oojacoboo> webkit runs mobile, at least currently
  133. # [07:29] <BlueG> Well, in terms of supporting the user base that is out there, these stats have only about 8% mobile users.
  134. # [07:30] <oojacoboo> well, I am looking at what's pushing the adoption, and it's iOS
  135. # [07:31] <oojacoboo> and seeing as how that's the case and webkit is the target, h.264 seems the most logical at the moment
  136. # [07:32] <BlueG> oojacoboo: Only if you want to ignore the 31% (and growing) of users on Firefox.
  137. # [07:33] <oojacoboo> BlueG: firefox on mobile?
  138. # [07:33] <BlueG> I suppose that is why we are all still double and triple encoding our video
  139. # [07:33] <BlueG> *sigh*
  140. # [07:33] <BlueG> No, I meant of users in general.
  141. # [07:33] <oojacoboo> the point is, <video> is being used as a fallback currently
  142. # [07:33] <oojacoboo> and will be for quite some time
  143. # [07:34] <oojacoboo> meanwhile, the main reason for adoption is the fact that iOS doesn't support flash, therefore, forcing people to use <video>, and since webkit rules mobile decides, that's the most natural fit... h.264 fallback to flv
  144. # [07:35] <BlueG> oojacoboo: I don't know, youtube is in the process of implementing <video> with a commitment to support webm.
  145. # [07:35] <oojacoboo> BlueG: that's fine, they will support flash and h.264 as well then
  146. # [07:36] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@174-21-111-3.tukw.qwest.net)
  147. # [07:36] <oojacoboo> firefox is holding out, but I think they will have to bite the bullet sooner or later
  148. # [07:37] <oojacoboo> and as far as firefox's growing market share, last I checked, chrome was grabbing a nice little chunk of firefox and safari
  149. # [07:39] <BlueG> Actually it looks more like Firefox, Chrome, and Safari are grabbing up a nice chunk of IE, but I believe all three are still on the rise.
  150. # [07:39] <BlueG> And Chrome will support theora and webm, as well
  151. # [07:39] <oojacoboo> BlueG: yes, they are, at least until IE9 is released, but Chrome seems to be taking the most share at the moment
  152. # [07:40] <oojacoboo> only reason Safari is taking any is b/c Apple's Mac sales are still booming
  153. # [07:40] <oojacoboo> BlueG: but why would I want to encode my video in something that won't work on iOS?!?
  154. # [07:40] <oojacoboo> that's 75% of the reason to use <video> at the moment
  155. # [07:41] <BlueG> And IE9 will support whatever codec is installed on the machine.
  156. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> IE9 won't necessarily support whatever codec may happen to be installed on the machine
  157. # [07:42] * Joins: izico (~izico@113.115.133.136)
  158. # [07:42] * Parts: izico (~izico@113.115.133.136)
  159. # [07:42] <BlueG> Unless you want to support <video> to replace proprietary plugin crap in the first place. In which case it seems silly for 31% of the users who have support for <video> to fallback to Flash, and then fail if they don't have it installed.
  160. # [07:44] <oojacoboo> BlueG: something like 98.5% of users have flash
  161. # [07:44] <oojacoboo> maybe less with iOS traffic rising each day, but regardless
  162. # [07:45] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-tmcenbjhscsysskb) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101027155446])
  163. # [07:45] <BlueG> MikeSmith: Well, the announcement was that they would support vp8 when the codec was installed and that they were committed to supporting all widely used formats. http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2010/05/19/another-follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx
  164. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> right
  165. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> which is a little different than whatever codec is installed on the machine
  166. # [07:48] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-sqbdncuzpgxyqhnn) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  167. # [07:49] <BlueG> I don't have Flash. Eliminating the need for things like Flash is a major reason for implementing <video> in the first place. <video> was not invented to work around the lack of Flash on iOS, it was invented to make video a first class citizen on the web, and enable video through open standards. It just happened that iOS supports <video> and not Flash (mainly so that Apple can keep better control of its users).
  168. # [07:50] <BlueG> MikeSmith: Yes, it is. Although I would have guessed supporting whatever codec is installed on the machine would be the simplest way to do what they said.
  169. # [08:10] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  170. # [08:10] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com) (Quit: zzzzz)
  171. # [08:26] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  172. # [08:29] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  173. # [08:34] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com)
  174. # [08:37] <nielsle> I just wondered. Will the html5 video tag allow you to zoom forward in a video, or to resume viewing after the connection has been lost?
  175. # [08:37] <nielsle> I am trying to watch html5 videos on youtube, but they ofter stop loading when half the video has been loaded.
  176. # [08:45] <nessy> what browsr? that may be a bug...
  177. # [08:45] <nessy> while you are watching, tht shouldn't happen
  178. # [08:45] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-171-40-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  179. # [08:45] <nessy> if you browser to a different page and return, then it will happen
  180. # [08:50] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  181. # [08:50] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  182. # [08:51] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  183. # [08:53] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  184. # [09:08] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com) (Quit: zzzzz)
  185. # [09:09] <nielsle> I am using epiphany on debian sid
  186. # [09:10] <nielsle> I will try with iceaweasel/firefox and see if I can reproduce
  187. # [09:19] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  188. # [09:24] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  189. # [09:29] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.211.104)
  190. # [09:29] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-171-40-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  191. # [09:48] <nielsle> Thank you for the advice. I watched my video with Chrome and iceweasel/firefox twice, and it works. So this must be a bug in epiphany.
  192. # [09:51] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.235.236)
  193. # [09:52] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  194. # [10:00] * Parts: murz (~mmurraywa@174-21-111-3.tukw.qwest.net)
  195. # [10:04] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  196. # [10:20] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  197. # [10:20] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  198. # [10:21] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  199. # [10:48] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.52.124)
  200. # [10:58] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  201. # [11:09] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  202. # [11:13] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  203. # [11:15] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  204. # [11:17] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  205. # [11:20] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  206. # [11:20] * mhausenblas_ is now known as mhausenblas
  207. # [11:31] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc6-seac20-2-0-cust102.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  208. # [11:45] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-171-40-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  209. # [11:48] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-171-40-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  210. # [12:00] <Dashiva> The lack of kite references in mark's amazon post disturbs me
  211. # [12:02] <Ms2ger> Dashiva, you are as high as a kite
  212. # [12:03] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Remote host closed the connection)
  213. # [12:10] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  214. # [12:16] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GZMMDCCCXXII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  215. # [12:19] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~Henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se)
  216. # [12:26] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-129-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  217. # [12:29] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-52-140.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  218. # [12:29] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  219. # [12:34] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  220. # [12:36] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  221. # [12:37] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@82.76.236.194)
  222. # [12:38] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  223. # [12:39] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  224. # [13:04] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  225. # [13:04] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  226. # [13:05] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101)
  227. # [13:13] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  228. # [13:23] * Quits: crash\ (bouncer@lubyte.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  229. # [13:25] * Joins: crash\ (bouncer@lubyte.de)
  230. # [14:03] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-171-40-30.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  231. # [14:07] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.211.104) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  232. # [14:16] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  233. # [14:16] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  234. # [14:20] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.232.121)
  235. # [14:21] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@cD970BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  236. # [14:30] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  237. # [14:32] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@82.76.236.194) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  238. # [14:39] * Quits: toyoshim (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  239. # [14:41] * Joins: toyoshima (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  240. # [14:42] * toyoshima is now known as toyoshim
  241. # [14:47] * Quits: toyoshim (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  242. # [14:47] * Joins: toyoshim (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  243. # [14:47] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  244. # [14:48] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@82.76.238.238)
  245. # [14:49] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  246. # [14:49] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  247. # [14:49] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  248. # [14:50] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-169-135-161.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  249. # [14:54] * Quits: toyoshim (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  250. # [14:57] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  251. # [14:57] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  252. # [15:01] * Quits: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  253. # [15:02] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  254. # [15:03] * Joins: toyoshima (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  255. # [15:04] * toyoshima is now known as toyoshim
  256. # [15:16] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  257. # [15:19] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  258. # [15:41] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk)
  259. # [15:44] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@89.204.153.102)
  260. # [15:45] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-171-40-30.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  261. # [15:47] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.101) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  262. # [15:55] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
  263. # [15:56] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.102) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  264. # [16:02] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@4.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  265. # [16:05] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@4.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  266. # [16:16] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  267. # [16:19] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  268. # [16:19] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Client Quit)
  269. # [16:45] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  270. # [16:46] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  271. # [16:53] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  272. # [17:08] * Quits: Anti-X (~duckmysic@cD970BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  273. # [17:09] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1465.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  274. # [17:20] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com)
  275. # [17:27] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  276. # [17:31] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: zzzzleepy!)
  277. # [17:33] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  278. # [17:34] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  279. # [17:38] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GZMMDCCCXXII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  280. # [17:39] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@cD970BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  281. # [17:58] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  282. # [18:02] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@82.76.238.238) (Remote host closed the connection)
  283. # [18:06] <hober> http://cafe.elharo.com/xml/xml-2-0/
  284. # [18:08] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  285. # [18:10] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  286. # [18:12] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  287. # [18:26] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-158-72.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  288. # [18:29] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-129-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  289. # [18:29] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  290. # [18:31] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  291. # [18:32] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.66)
  292. # [18:37] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  293. # [18:48] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Remote host closed the connection)
  294. # [18:49] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  295. # [18:50] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Client Quit)
  296. # [18:51] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  297. # [18:54] * Parts: toyoshim (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  298. # [18:56] * Joins: toyoshim (~toyoshima@y168217.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  299. # [19:09] <Dashiva> "Encourage a variety of different APIs and data models appropriate to their respective domains and languages. However be very clear that the actual text of the document is the normative form. The data model is a representation of the text. The text is not a serialization of the data model."
  300. # [19:09] <Dashiva> That sounds like a whole lot of trouble waiting to happen
  301. # [19:15] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  302. # [19:26] <GPHemsley> Maybe this is a CSS thing, but is 'padding' supposed to be inherited from a {footer} to {footer > p}?
  303. # [19:27] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.66) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  304. # [19:30] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Read error: Connection timed out)
  305. # [19:31] <Dashiva> GPHemsley: Not actually inherited, no
  306. # [19:36] * Quits: brendaneich (~brendanei@adsl-71-131-200-57.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) (Quit: brendaneich)
  307. # [19:40] <GPHemsley> oh, nevermind, it was just a calculation of a percentage width, it wasn't actually being inherited
  308. # [19:41] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  309. # [19:45] * Joins: Sosby (jsa@70.32.34.100)
  310. # [19:47] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  311. # [19:50] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  312. # [19:50] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  313. # [19:52] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  314. # [20:02] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  315. # [20:04] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  316. # [20:10] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  317. # [20:11] * Joins: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  318. # [20:11] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  319. # [20:12] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  320. # [20:16] * Joins: cooto (~coto@pc-115-153-83-200.cm.vtr.net)
  321. # [20:17] * Joins: romeo_ (~romeo__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k459.webspeed.dk)
  322. # [20:19] * Quits: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  323. # [20:21] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  324. # [20:33] * Quits: cooto (~coto@pc-115-153-83-200.cm.vtr.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  325. # [20:37] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk)
  326. # [20:39] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  327. # [20:44] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  328. # [20:53] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com) (Quit: zzzzz)
  329. # [20:54] * Joins: adamdecaf (~adam@k6219a.resnet.uni.edu)
  330. # [20:57] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  331. # [21:04] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  332. # [21:06] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2)
  333. # [21:24] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  334. # [21:24] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-191-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  335. # [21:27] <bga_> hi
  336. # [21:27] <bga_> yet another question %)
  337. # [21:27] <Ms2ger> Welcome
  338. # [21:28] <bga_> why whatwg invent wheel called webforms2.0 when we have excelent xul
  339. # [21:28] <bga_> ?
  340. # [21:29] <espadrine> The purpose is different
  341. # [21:29] <bga_> user want native tabs
  342. # [21:30] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  343. # [21:30] <bga_> all native controls
  344. # [21:30] <bga_> trees..,
  345. # [21:30] <karlcow> bga_: xul is implemented where, html forms are implemented where
  346. # [21:32] <bga_> if we will have xul - all wheels like extjs, yui, qudoxo will not need :)
  347. # [21:32] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  348. # [21:33] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  349. # [21:35] <bga_> if you do not want exactly xul - please add tabs, trees and other missing controls
  350. # [21:41] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-169-135-161.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  351. # [21:42] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk)
  352. # [21:47] <bga_> :(
  353. # [21:50] <romeo_> bga_, XUL is going to die. I hope you are aware of that.
  354. # [21:51] <bga_> and what is replacement?
  355. # [21:51] <romeo_> "HTML5"
  356. # [21:52] <bga_> but i as user want tabs in browser according OS gui theme
  357. # [21:53] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  358. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> "Out of luck"
  359. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> Or, wait until Tab writes a CSS spec for it
  360. # [21:54] <bga_> very funny
  361. # [21:54] <bga_> web apps needs it
  362. # [21:55] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  363. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> They're coping well enough, if they need it
  364. # [22:00] <bga_> yes but plz explain me.
  365. # [22:01] <bga_> why whatwg wants checkboxes and buttuns according OS gui theme, but other controls not?
  366. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> There are very limited resources, and adding any more forms features at this point would probably cause more Chrome-style implementations
  367. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> Once the current features are implemented well, more might be added
  368. # [22:04] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  369. # [22:06] * Joins: llrcombs (~11rcombs@c-67-173-106-77.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  370. # [22:07] <llrcombs> may I make a reccomendation for a change to the mouse event standard?
  371. # [22:08] <llrcombs> I think all mouse events should include leftButtonDown, rightButtonDown, and middleButtonDown (or something similarly worded)
  372. # [22:08] * Joins: brendaneich (~brendanei@adsl-71-131-200-57.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)
  373. # [22:08] <llrcombs> because right now, there's no reliable way to check if the LMB is down in a mousemove event, for instance
  374. # [22:09] <bga_> hi brendaneich :)
  375. # [22:10] <brendaneich> hi
  376. # [22:11] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  377. # [22:11] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
  378. # [22:11] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  379. # [22:20] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  380. # [22:41] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-191-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  381. # [22:41] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-191-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  382. # [22:45] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.235.236) (Quit: .)
  383. # [22:56] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  384. # [23:01] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  385. # [23:02] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  386. # [23:02] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  387. # [23:02] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  388. # [23:02] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  389. # [23:04] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  390. # [23:06] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-191-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  391. # [23:07] * Quits: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-191-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  392. # [23:13] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FBEC.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  393. # [23:14] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~Henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  394. # [23:29] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.232.121) (Quit: nn)
  395. # [23:29] * Quits: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
  396. # [23:42] * Joins: ormaaj (debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj)
  397. # [23:44] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  398. # [23:46] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@adsl-242-206-29.rmo.bellsouth.net) (Quit: shepazu)
  399. # [23:46] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.52.124) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  400. # [23:51] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  401. # Session Close: Sun Dec 05 00:00:01 2010

The end :)