/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 07 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> "One of [some company's] large public sector clients has asked if we can deliver a presentation to their developers and architects, presenting the pros and cons of moving to HTML5 immediately"
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> (I mean without it there would be no Black Sabbath and hence no heavy metal)
  5. # [00:00] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> well i've told the guy about brucel, if anyone else is interested let me know and i'll forward your details also
  7. # [00:00] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  8. # [00:01] <jgraham> (given which there wouldn't be constant metal gigs in Linkoping taking up all the avaliable concert venues)
  9. # [00:01] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  10. # [00:01] <annevk> whoa
  11. # [00:01] <annevk> bcc world news talks about HTML5
  12. # [00:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh come on, there are almost none.
  13. # [00:01] <jgraham> (and so preventing me seeing any bands I actually like)
  14. # [00:01] <jgraham> (so yeah, fuck you Birmingham)
  15. # [00:01] <annevk> it is processor hungry
  16. # [00:01] <annevk> worse than a cookie monster
  17. # [00:01] <annevk> or something like that
  18. # [00:01] <annevk> and that was it, lol
  19. # [00:02] <karlcow> DOMContentLoaded is not defined in HTML5? (or am I missing something)
  20. # [00:02] <karlcow> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-end.html#the-end
  21. # [00:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well yeah and even if there were it wouldn't make good people suddenly play here. But if there was no metal maybe good bands would have more fans in Scandinavia
  22. # [00:02] <zcorpan> "Queue a task to fire a simple event that bubbles named DOMContentLoaded at the Document."
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  24. # [00:03] <annevk> karlcow, you don't need much to define an event
  25. # [00:03] <karlcow> hehe
  26. # [00:03] <annevk> karlcow, i.e. what HTML5 says there is sufficient
  27. # [00:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: Bleh, just think of all the good music there :)
  28. # [00:03] <jgraham> and stop doing "european tours" that consist of the UK, The Netherlands, France and Belgium
  29. # [00:03] <jgraham> I mean. Belgium
  30. # [00:03] <annevk> they have chocolate
  31. # [00:03] <jgraham> How awful is it to be below Belgium on the pecking order
  32. # [00:03] <annevk> and beer
  33. # [00:04] <jgraham> Belgian chocolate is not actually that nice
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  36. # [00:04] <annevk> o_O
  37. # [00:05] <jgraham> Well there is probably some good stuff but all the great chocolate I find comes from France or Italy
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  39. # [00:05] <jgraham> Possibly the belgians are just keeping it to themselves
  40. # [00:05] <annevk> that sounds really odd
  41. # [00:07] <jgraham> Not really. Valrhona: French. Amedei: Italian. Heaven in bar form.
  42. # [00:07] <erlehmann> can any one of you canvas experts explain to me why stroked shapes are always drawn a frame later than filled? http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/schwrkrft/test.html
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  45. # [00:07] <erlehmann> (click on a particle in the main canvas and it gets hilighted in the secondary)
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  47. # [00:09] <jgraham> Anyway the point is that The Decemberists are playing frickin' Belgium and ignoring Scandinavia entirely. Let alone anywhere I could actually get to on a weeknight
  48. # [00:11] <jgraham> And with that irrelevant rant, I will go to sleep
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  50. # [00:13] <annevk> you could take some vacation ;)
  51. # [00:13] <annevk> but then you don't like the chocolate there and you don't drink beer... might be sad ;p
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  55. # [00:16] <erlehmann> any one of the web cabal attending chaos communication congress at the end of the month?
  56. # [00:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: I didn't see any dates announced anywhere near here :(
  57. # [00:17] <annevk> erlehmann, that's in Germany right? which days?
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  59. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Yeah, they're playing in London, nowhere else in the UK :(
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  61. # [00:18] <gsnedders> Or, alternatively, I can't read.
  62. # [00:18] <gsnedders> They're playing in Glasgow in March. Win.
  63. # [00:19] <gsnedders> Meh, it's the weekend I have people trying to convince me to go LARPing…
  64. # [00:19] <erlehmann> annevk, every year from 27.12 to 30.12 — but all complete-event tickets are sold out, so (as i understood it) they'll only sell day passes at the counter.
  65. # [00:20] <annevk> probably not going to make it then
  66. # [00:20] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  67. # [00:20] <annevk> bit unfortunate timing for me if it is the same each year
  68. # [00:21] <erlehmann> ahaha, i was just "don't worry, i'll ask again next year", but then …
  69. # [00:21] <annevk> heh
  70. # [00:21] <annevk> could organize our own one day
  71. # [00:22] <annevk> put a banner on the spec and I'm sure the masses will come :)
  72. # [00:22] <erlehmann> our own congress with thousands of hackers? hehe
  73. # [00:22] <annevk> and then when everyone arrives we announce the secret program
  74. # [00:23] <annevk> writing testcases for three days straight
  75. # [00:23] <erlehmann> “Nooooo! HTML5 testcases is … PEOPLE!”
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  100. # [01:52] <Hixie> could some opera people comment on whether they're interested in having the spec spec http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-August/028107.html ?
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  121. # [02:59] <lhnz> NGEN
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  171. # [06:32] <hober> OK. My ISSUE-27 CP is getting pretty close to where I wanted it to be.
  172. # [06:33] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-27
  173. # [06:33] <hober> any and all feedback welcome
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  187. # [07:27] <othermaciej> hober: that looks quite thorough
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  213. # [09:28] <phrearch> morning
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  222. # [09:50] <phrearch> hm, are there any conventions yet how to do pageviews over websockets?
  223. # [09:51] <phrearch> like i do a xhr request now for /frontend/wiki/home/ , but i rather do this over a websocket, so i can keep track of where a user is on the site without much hazzle
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  230. # [10:38] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10970 What happened to the claim that RDFa 1.1 is a superset of Microdata?
  231. # [10:41] * jgraham didn't realise that RDFa was non-deterministic (that is: different consumers may produce different graphs)
  232. # [10:41] <jgraham> That seems bad
  233. # [10:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: I assume that the answer is that it's conceptually a superset i.e. any triple that you can produce with microdata you can also produce with RDFa, but it is not necessarily a superset at the markup level
  234. # [10:42] <jgraham> Or did they make the stronger claim at some point?
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  237. # [10:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't know if someone meant to make a stronger claim at some point, but I certaintly thought someone made a stronger claim.
  238. # [10:50] <othermaciej> RDFa is not a syntactic superset for trivial reasons (e.g. doesn't support itemscope)
  239. # [10:50] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@charlvn.za.net)
  240. # [10:50] <othermaciej> I don't recall exactly what claims were made though
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  243. # [10:54] <hsivonen> I like the title of http://www.adambarth.com/experimental/websocket.pdf
  244. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> heh
  245. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> the graphics are great as well
  246. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> figures
  247. # [10:57] <annevk> Firefox' encoding menu looks even worse than Opera's
  248. # [10:57] <annevk> I'm impressed
  249. # [10:57] <othermaciej> hah, I didn't even look at the graphics before
  250. # [10:58] <annevk> Although admittedly it only goes wrong when you open the "more encodings" subdialog
  251. # [10:58] <othermaciej> I am sad that the paper didn't do much to win people over to the true path of handshake righteousness
  252. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Don't countries have legislation that bans tampering with communications in transit the way transparent proxies do?
  253. # [10:59] <othermaciej> even though it shows a rather awful vulnerability
  254. # [10:59] <othermaciej> hsivonen: you mean, besides the countries running such proxies themselves?
  255. # [10:59] <annevk> So bored with hybi...
  256. # [10:59] <hsivonen> othermaciej: well, those countries could have laws, too
  257. # [10:59] <annevk> Would be nice if they settled on something already...
  258. # [11:00] <annevk> Same with the HTML test suite stuff by the way
  259. # [11:00] <hsivonen> othermaciej: e.g. Finland has a law that authorizes the police to tamper with the DNS records of foreign sites, but they are known to tamper with the DNS record of at least one Finnish site, too.
  260. # [11:00] <othermaciej> I might try my own attempt at hacking the test framework to be more convenient for simple script tests
  261. # [11:01] <othermaciej> hsivonen: some intercepting proxies are national firewalls but some are corporate firewalls, or set up on public wifi networks by the operators of said network
  262. # [11:01] <othermaciej> I doubt the latter two categories are illegal
  263. # [11:02] <annevk> ooh hey
  264. # [11:02] <annevk> did we pass one of the HTML WG deadlines December 1?
  265. # [11:02] <othermaciej> there was one on December 6
  266. # [11:02] <hsivonen> I *think* my ISP in the late 1990s had a transparent proxy for a while but it resulted in much complaining
  267. # [11:02] <othermaciej> all bugs are supposed to be resolved by editors
  268. # [11:03] <annevk> actually, that's tomorrow
  269. # [11:03] <othermaciej> I think there are a tiny handful of open pre-LC bugs
  270. # [11:03] <annevk> per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
  271. # [11:03] <hsivonen> or I know it had a transparent proxy at one point, but I *think* it was found to be a bad idea 10 years ago already
  272. # [11:03] <othermaciej> ah, right, the 8th
  273. # [11:03] <othermaciej> my mistake
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  276. # [11:04] <jgraham> othermaciej: You saw I committed the change I made to add generate_tests?
  277. # [11:05] <othermaciej> jgraham: no I didn't, but generate_tests doesn't seem at all like what I want, based on your prior description of it
  278. # [11:05] <jgraham> Oh well
  279. # [11:05] <othermaciej> it is confusingly indirect
  280. # [11:05] <jgraham> I used it and found it worked rather well
  281. # [11:05] <hsivonen> I didn't read the full paper yet, but by skimming it looks like Flash and Java can poison transparent proxies, too
  282. # [11:06] <hsivonen> did I skim it right?
  283. # [11:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: yes
  284. # [11:06] <annevk> http://www.cafepress.co.uk/sk/w3c_shop -- not cashing in on HTML5
  285. # [11:06] * hsivonen wonders if Flash and Java are now also considered to have serious security flaws
  286. # [11:06] <othermaciej> I would really just like a way to write test assertions in a normal straightforward way, and have the results of each one reported, without having to double-nest them all in calls
  287. # [11:06] <hsivonen> (as opposed to transparent proxies having them)
  288. # [11:07] <othermaciej> generate_tests instead adds an obscure way to generate tests+assertions from arrays of stuff
  289. # [11:07] <othermaciej> it seems like almost everyone who has commented finds the test vs. assertion distinction confusing and painful
  290. # [11:07] <jgraham> It's really not that obsucre
  291. # [11:08] <jgraham> Yes, it feels like I am fighting a losing battle there
  292. # [11:08] <jgraham> But nevertheless I think it is a highly useful distinction
  293. # [11:09] <othermaciej> it is a lot less readable than just writing individual assertions
  294. # [11:09] <othermaciej> also the way you write it seems to lose the exception catching on the assert expressions
  295. # [11:10] <othermaciej> (I infer from generate_tests(assert_equals, [[1+1,2], [2+3,5]]))
  296. # [11:10] <phrearch> hm this may be nice for websocket routing. combination of crud and urls
  297. # [11:10] <jgraham> I don't think it is less readable if you want something more than a simple assert_
  298. # [11:10] <jgraham> Which is a rather common case
  299. # [11:10] <jgraham> Or at least was the case the only time I used it so far
  300. # [11:10] <phrearch> myws.remote('/path/to/my/resource/action',{params})
  301. # [11:10] <othermaciej> yeah, but just wanting a simple assert is a rather common case too
  302. # [11:10] <othermaciej> which is quite poorly served right now
  303. # [11:11] <jgraham> Right, so having one solution that works for both cases seems strictly better than having a whole bunch of special cases for each assert_
  304. # [11:11] <othermaciej> compared to other frameworks for browser-based tests that folks have experience with
  305. # [11:11] <jgraham> To be honest the vibe I get is that everyone wants to do what they are used to
  306. # [11:11] <othermaciej> but this does almost nothing to fix my complaint even for the simple assert_equals case
  307. # [11:12] <othermaciej> it can't catch exceptions in those expressions
  308. # [11:12] <jgraham> I'm not saying that my thing is perfect or even good, but you proposed something like the webkit tests and Mozilla folks basically proposed Mochitest
  309. # [11:12] <jgraham> othermaciej: Why can't it catch exceptions?
  310. # [11:12] <othermaciej> mochitests and webkit tests are much more similar to each other than to your thing
  311. # [11:13] <othermaciej> jgraham: what exception handler is in effect when the expression "2 + 3" is being evaluated in your example?
  312. # [11:13] <jgraham> Maybe I have been looking at the wrong Webkit tests then
  313. # [11:13] <othermaciej> what if instead of 2 + 3, that expression was getElementById("foo").tagName (or something else that could throw)?
  314. # [11:13] <jgraham> othermaciej: That's a fair point, but in practice I wouldn't exprect a complex expression there
  315. # [11:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: my learning experience when I was writing my first mochitest was more successful than my experience when first writing an HTML WG test
  316. # [11:14] <jgraham> I would typically expect you to pass a primitive to a function
  317. # [11:15] <othermaciej> how would you use generate_tests to check that DOM calls which may throw have specific expected results?
  318. # [11:15] <othermaciej> I don't see any way to do it
  319. # [11:15] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-149-104-90.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  320. # [11:15] <othermaciej> and that's exactly what my id test is
  321. # [11:15] <jgraham> How would you fix the problem but preserve the property that the code is run in an exception handler?
  322. # [11:16] <othermaciej> I can think of three ways
  323. # [11:16] <othermaciej> (1) make each assert_* macro report its results, no matter how they are grouped in test() calls
  324. # [11:16] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  325. # [11:17] <jgraham> I don't see how (1) helps
  326. # [11:17] <othermaciej> (2) make assert_* macros just work at top level without being nested in test(), but take strings to eval, or thunks
  327. # [11:17] <othermaciej> (3) make test_* macros that are variants of assert_* which combine the creation of a test
  328. # [11:18] <othermaciej> (1) helps because I could rewrite my id test to have one test(function() { .... }); wrapping it
  329. # [11:18] <othermaciej> instead of one per assert
  330. # [11:18] <othermaciej> and still get the same output
  331. # [11:18] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  332. # [11:19] <jgraham> I am really, really skeptical of systems that require output for each assert. One assert passing is not typically sufficient to indicate that the test passed
  333. # [11:19] <jgraham> Except in trivial cases
  334. # [11:19] <othermaciej> who said anything about "systems that require"?
  335. # [11:20] <othermaciej> it makes it easier for browser engineers running the test to determine exactly which parts are failing
  336. # [11:20] <othermaciej> and which parts are working
  337. # [11:20] <othermaciej> more so than a single pass/fail result
  338. # [11:21] <jgraham> Anyway, what implementation of "thunks" did you have in mind?
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  341. # [11:21] <othermaciej> I am assuming here that the goal of the tests is to improve interop, and therefore optimizing the output to be useful for implementors
  342. # [11:21] <jgraham> Yes, I agree with that
  343. # [11:22] <jgraham> And I can see that adding stack traces where the test fails is useful
  344. # [11:22] <jgraham> and adding the asserts that passed for failing tests might give you some indication of what code flow you had
  345. # [11:22] <jgraham> (I am thinking of async tests here)
  346. # [11:22] <othermaciej> by "thunks" I just mean 0-arg functions used to delay expressions (rather than quoting them as strings)
  347. # [11:23] <jgraham> Isn't that roughly what it uses already?
  348. # [11:23] <jgraham> That seems to be the thing that is drawing all the complkaints
  349. # [11:23] <othermaciej> that plus the two separate concepts that you have to layer together by hand each time
  350. # [11:25] <jgraham> (fwiw I *could* make generate_tests exception-safe in the same way. That is I could make it take a function that is evaluated to return the parameter lists, or something)
  351. # [11:25] <othermaciej> I haven't really thought about async tests, but even there I think it is useful to report results for all steps that actually run, even if you don't end up running all the steps
  352. # [11:25] <othermaciej> especially so if the failure is that one of your async steps never runs (e.g. because some event never fires), even though all asserts up to that point passed
  353. # [11:26] <gsnedders> Is it not implicit that all asserts up to the point that it failed at passed?
  354. # [11:26] <othermaciej> see comment above about optimizing output for ease of use by implementors
  355. # [11:27] <jgraham> You can't fail because a step never runs and keep the common pattern where you add an assert_unreached() to indicate that an event that was not supposed to fire did not
  356. # [11:27] <othermaciej> yes, you could stare real hard at the test, figure out the control flow, and surmise where you must have failed, or the test output can tell you that
  357. # [11:28] <othermaciej> how will async tests detect failure by an event never firing?
  358. # [11:28] <jgraham> The test will timeout
  359. # [11:28] <othermaciej> so presumably you know what step was pending at that point
  360. # [11:28] <jgraham> "You"?
  361. # [11:28] <othermaciej> I assume a timeout is a failure
  362. # [11:28] <jgraham> The harness doesn't know
  363. # [11:28] <gsnedders> FWIW, in our case, as I believe jgraham said on the list already, for our automated testing system (or any that does regression tracking, which I think would include MS as well), having tests/asserts that sometimes appear and sometimes don't are actively harmful for tracking stuff
  364. # [11:29] <jgraham> A timeout is a failure
  365. # [11:29] <othermaciej> how is that compatible with steps that are expected to never run and assert_unreached()?
  366. # [11:29] <jgraham> But the test harness doesn't know about the order of things, so it doesn't know what, if anything is pending
  367. # [11:29] <jgraham> It just knows that the test hasn't declared itself finished
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  371. # [11:30] <jgraham> Anyway, it is easy to add some information about the asserts that passed to the output of failed tests
  372. # [11:30] <othermaciej> anyway, this only further makes the case that printing partial results as the test runs is useful
  373. # [11:31] <jgraham> It is also easy to add stack information via non-standard apis
  374. # [11:31] <othermaciej> if there is a way to meet Opera's specialized needs (that WebKit and Gecko don't seem to share) without making it harder to write good tests, I'm all for it
  375. # [11:31] <jgraham> I don't think either of these things are fundamental design issues though
  376. # [11:32] <othermaciej> I'm not sure stack information is very important
  377. # [11:32] <jgraham> Well it's hard to tell exactly which assert we are talking about without it
  378. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I must admit I do not really understand the details of Opera's needs, but I'm willing to take your word for it that the test/assert distinction somehow serves it
  379. # [11:34] <jgraham> Our needs are mostly that we get consistent output from files containing multiple tests
  380. # [11:34] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Basically, we need a constant set of tests/asserts/whatever to be reported back to the regression tracking
  381. # [11:34] <othermaciej> but I'm not sure I am willing to write three times as many lines of script per HTML5 test to meet those needs
  382. # [11:34] <jgraham> That is, if they give 10 results one day we need 10 results the next day even if we broke something in the middle
  383. # [11:34] <othermaciej> compared to what I am used to in other script tests frameworks
  384. # [11:35] <gsnedders> FWIW, something like what qUnit does of showing all the asserts that ran works for us, provided we still have the tst output.
  385. # [11:36] <jgraham> Yes, ease of authoring is a concern. But maybe this is best discussed with a patch
  386. # [11:36] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-169-135-161.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  387. # [11:36] <othermaciej> I'll write a sample modification to the test framework (maybe more than one) and show how my test case would look with and without it
  388. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: btw, https://bitbucket.org/validator/html-spec
  389. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> mirror of the subversion repo for the spec
  390. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> the mercurial clone is only 31MB
  391. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> I had made another attempt at making a git clone of it, but stopped when it got to 8GB
  392. # [11:40] <jgraham> Yeah, something crazy there
  393. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> disk space limit at github is 300MB anyway
  394. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, I have no idea what would cause it to balloon like that
  395. # [11:41] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  396. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> also, I think the subversion python bindings that hgsubversion uses by default leak memory
  397. # [11:41] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  398. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> making the hg clone kept causing my server to run out of memory
  399. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> and then kill the process
  400. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> all of the available ways to create DVCS clones of subversion repos seem to have some serious problems when working with a subversion repo for any large project
  401. # [11:44] <jgraham> I choose to blame svn
  402. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> hell yeah
  403. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> as usual
  404. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> I dislike subversion enough I'm tempted to say I hope subversion's death is slow and painful
  405. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> as payback for all the wasted time it has cost
  406. # [11:46] <jgraham> It is dying slowly and painfully. Sadly the pain is for the people still using it and those trying to move away from it
  407. # [11:47] <rimantas> MikeSmith, creating svn clone requires to check out every revision out of subversion
  408. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> rimantas: yah, I figured as much
  409. # [11:47] * Joins: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@220.109.219.244)
  410. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I just hope that people have enough sense to quit using it for new projects at least
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  412. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> why anyone would voluntarily choose subversion for a new project at this point is beyond me
  413. # [11:48] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  414. # [11:48] <rimantas> actually it shows one of the ways how subversion sucks - everything (almost) over the net, and slow
  415. # [11:48] <gsnedders> othermaciej: Would something like having setup/teardown would work? There, IMO, needs to be a way to capture exceptions from each and every part of an, e.g., @id testsuite
  416. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, we could write a book about all the ways it sucks
  417. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> mutli-volume book
  418. # [11:49] <annevk> hmm, Obama failed with tax, Julian Assange arrested
  419. # [11:49] * Joins: pauld_ (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  420. # [11:49] <annevk> not a great day
  421. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> arrested?
  422. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> where?
  423. # [11:49] <annevk> in London, he turned himself in
  424. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> damn
  425. # [11:49] <annevk> according to twitter anyway
  426. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
  427. # [11:50] <jgraham> MikeSmith: For some kinds of things git et. al. really suck. I'm thinking huge repositories with many files some large and where partial checkouts are useful
  428. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> well, we still have cvs for that
  429. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> for the other stuff
  430. # [11:50] <jgraham> It is not clear to me that CVS sucks less
  431. # [11:50] <jgraham> I mean, there is some competition
  432. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> heh
  433. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> yeah, svn and cvs and going head-to-head there
  434. # [11:53] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  435. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway, he's let the genie out of the bottle… it'll be hard to imagine things just going back to normal. They are not going to be able to prevent leaks from getting published going forward. I think others can see now that it's possible to get the information out
  436. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> jgraham: the bitbucket repo provides an RSS feed
  437. # [11:54] <zcorpan> partial checkout is nice
  438. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/validator/html-spec/rss
  439. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: partial checkout?
  440. # [11:55] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: checkout just one folder
  441. # [11:55] * Quits: pauld_ (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  442. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> ah
  443. # [11:55] * Joins: pauld_ (~chatzilla@194.102.13.2)
  444. # [11:55] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  445. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> bitbucket can do twitter notifications, so I got them turned on now for the @html5 user
  446. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> e.g., http://twitter.com/#!/html5/status/11940556187897856
  447. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> if anybody wants, I can get notifications (re)set up for @whatwg from there too
  448. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> but first I need to step away for a bit
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  455. # [12:22] <zcorpan> interesting that in the first version of WebSocket (then called TCPConnection), the handshake was client: "Hello\n" server: "Welcome\n"
  456. # [12:30] * pauld_ is now known as pauld
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  458. # [12:34] <phrearch> hm, i got a solution for my ws problem: http://hwios.blogspot.com/2010/12/websocket-routing.html
  459. # [12:35] <phrearch> applying urls on a websocket kinda makes sense
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  461. # [12:39] <phrearch> either via ws or via http should just point to some resource. maybe have some simulation of get/post in there as well
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  464. # [12:42] <zcorpan> phrearch: in theory you could talk HTTP over a websocket
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  466. # [12:43] <phrearch> zcorpan: im not sure if i understand :)
  467. # [12:44] <zcorpan> like ws.send('GET /foo/bar HTTP/1.1\r\n ...')
  468. # [12:44] <phrearch> im using it now just as a messaging medium(json) with html as payload for layout
  469. # [12:44] <phrearch> aha
  470. # [12:45] <phrearch> i guess that would take a custom server implementation?
  471. # [12:45] <zcorpan> i'm not sure if HTTP is more useful than JSON though :)
  472. # [12:45] <phrearch> im pretty happy with json atm, but i havent found a consistent routing mechanism yet
  473. # [12:46] <phrearch> having a router that can decode the url to some function would be nice
  474. # [12:47] <phrearch> django had a websocket implementation, but that one seems to try to fit the websocket in a http request/response
  475. # [12:47] <phrearch> it doesnt seem to make sense to do a http handshake every time
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  491. # [13:33] <MrWax> Will the WebSQL API be continued in some kind of way? now W3C doesn't do it?
  492. # [13:33] <gsnedders> No
  493. # [13:34] <MrWax> So WebSQL will definitely something we won't see in our webpages in the future?
  494. # [13:35] <gsnedders> Inded
  495. # [13:35] <MrWax> Actually wondering, why not? I mean, it could be quite handy in the light of the more offline apps
  496. # [13:35] * Joins: sean``` (~Sean@h183194.upc-h.chello.nl)
  497. # [13:35] <gsnedders> Because there's a lack of interest from implementors, apart from those who've already implemented it
  498. # [13:35] <gsnedders> And that all of them like it anyway
  499. # [13:35] <MrWax> That's kinda bad
  500. # [13:35] <gsnedders> IndexedDB is the future
  501. # [13:36] <MrWax> ok let me look it up
  502. # [13:36] <MrWax> Actually, for a presentation of HTML5, in the light of a CMS i have completely renewed (non HTML5 techniques, just a year ago) I was trying to convince people in a presentation how HTML5 offline web technologies will come to the rescue in a CMS like this
  503. # [13:36] <MrWax> WebSQL was a part of the story but I have to remove it now
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  505. # [13:39] <phrearch> hm, offline storage is going away?
  506. # [13:39] <gsnedders> localStorage will contain to exist, and IndexedDB will come into existance
  507. # [13:40] <gsnedders> *continue
  508. # [13:40] <gsnedders> ergh, I can't spell
  509. # [13:40] <MrWax> no no
  510. # [13:40] <MrWax> ok
  511. # [13:41] <phrearch> hm, as long they dont do that for websockets...
  512. # [13:41] <gsnedders> WebSockets has wide support, and is implemented by almost everyone. It's far from in the situation Web SQL ever was.
  513. # [13:41] <MrWax> gsnedders: so basically, what I could explain is something like: The CMS could have an option to work offline, as in, indexedDB will store the pages and their rights etc in tables, localStorage will store the page contents, App cache will store pictures Icons
  514. # [13:42] <phrearch> ok, glad to hear websockets arent scheduled for removal :)
  515. # [13:42] <phrearch> will read up on the websql thing
  516. # [13:42] <zcorpan> websockets is scheduled for disabling in firefox 4 at least
  517. # [13:42] <zcorpan> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=616733
  518. # [13:42] <gsnedders> Though that is temporary
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  520. # [13:42] <zcorpan> yeah
  521. # [13:42] <MrWax> gsnedders: is that a correct approach simply said?
  522. # [13:42] <phrearch> ow dear
  523. # [13:43] <gsnedders> MrWax: localStorage is just for any key->value pair, really
  524. # [13:43] <phrearch> ah well, as long it can be enabled in about::config
  525. # [13:43] <MrWax> gsnedders: so bulk page text contents of a CMS page - how would they be stored for offline usage?
  526. # [13:44] <gsnedders> phrearch: The issue is that the handshake makes it possible to exploit a number of buggy deployed HTTP proxies
  527. # [13:44] <gsnedders> MrWax: Either as key-value pairs in localStorage, in a table in IndexedDB, or as standard content in the app cache
  528. # [13:44] <phrearch> gsnedders: any radical changes expected there?
  529. # [13:44] <gsnedders> phrearch: At a protocol level, yes.
  530. # [13:46] <phrearch> gsnedders: i guess it wont hurt, as long its keeping a persistant connection like now
  531. # [13:47] <MrWax> gsnedders: I also have made a list of HTML5 (and HTML5 related) APIS .. just main, primary not every exact, but the important ones to present.. is this a list which farely represents the more important APIS?
  532. # [13:47] <MrWax> canvas, video/audio, drag & drop, app cache, geolocation, workers, localstorage, microdata, indexeddb
  533. # [13:48] <MrWax> I know there is a lot more, but this is just a small presentation
  534. # [13:48] <phrearch> well, websockets...
  535. # [13:48] <phrearch> :)
  536. # [13:48] <gsnedders> Well, most of them aren't actually in HTML5
  537. # [13:48] <MrWax> (and some that are not maintained by WHATWG HTML)
  538. # [13:48] <MrWax> yes
  539. # [13:48] <MrWax> thats why I said related
  540. # [13:49] * gsnedders isn't great judge of this off the top of his head
  541. # [13:49] <gsnedders> Because I'm probably forgetting half of what is in the spec
  542. # [13:49] <MrWax> ok :)
  543. # [13:49] <MrWax> anyone else maybe?
  544. # [13:52] <zcorpan> canvas: yes (but 2d context is not in w3c version), video/audio: yes, dnd: yes, app cache: yes, geolocation: no, workers: no, localstorage: no, microdata: only in whatwg version, indexeddb: no
  545. # [13:53] <MrWax> zcorpan: ok, for geolocation i agree, but why no localstorage and workers?
  546. # [13:53] <zcorpan> they're not in the html5 spec
  547. # [13:53] <MrWax> yes, but they are considered related apis right? that most browsers will soon implement
  548. # [13:53] <zcorpan> all web apis are related to html
  549. # [13:54] <MrWax> actually who has developed workers, do you know?
  550. # [13:54] <zcorpan> Hixie
  551. # [13:54] <zcorpan> well he wrote the spec
  552. # [13:54] <zcorpan> proof of concept impl was in Gears
  553. # [13:55] <jgraham> MrWax: http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/4394 should explain everything
  554. # [13:55] <MrWax> but, from how I see it, i could just simply change the subject of the second part of my presentation where I speak about APIs, first speak about those in the html5 spec, and then talk about the "related future web" apis
  555. # [13:55] <MrWax> jgraham: thx
  556. # [13:59] <Philip`> We're still in need of a name, as far as I'm aware
  557. # [14:00] <zcorpan> the name is "HTML5"
  558. # [14:01] <MrWax> Who's Hixie related to?
  559. # [14:01] <MrWax> Mozilla?
  560. # [14:01] <zcorpan> he works for google
  561. # [14:01] <MrWax> oh sorry I see his name now sorry sorry
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  566. # [14:12] <Philip`> zcorpan: If that's the name, tell gsnedders to stop telling people that things aren't actually in HTML5 :-)
  567. # [14:12] <annevk> IE does not even render my site that terrible
  568. # [14:12] <annevk> IE8*
  569. # [14:13] <jgraham> I think HTML5 is the marketing name meaning one thing and the technical name meaning another thing. It sounds confusing but it is no more confusing than every other case where a word has multiple meanings
  570. # [14:13] <jgraham> You just need to disabmiguate based on context

The end :)