/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 17 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: As myself and the girl I've ben inseparable from for the past few weeks often say, "I'm an English student. You expect me to know that?"
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  6. # [00:04] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Smells like webm
  7. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, er, how so?
  8. # [00:05] <Dashiva> Trying to build up h264 as a viable cross-browser option before webm can establish itself
  9. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  10. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> It's true, this would be consistent with the theory that Microsoft is trying to push H.264 and isn't just afraid of patent risk.
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  12. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> I've mostly been skeptical of that theory -- why provide any WebM support at all in that case?
  13. # [00:07] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The patent risk is a sunk cost for them, so they have no reason to be afraid of it moreso than they already are.
  14. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> It would also be consistent with the theory that Microsoft actually wants to increase web interoperability for its own sake, but my prior probability for that is too small to be stored in a standard 32-bit IEEE float.
  15. # [00:07] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And provided they don't actually ship a WebM decoder, there's no patent risk for them. They just look better for supporting it if it is installed.
  16. # [00:08] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: JS only has doubles, so it's fine ^^
  17. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, the patent risk for H.264 is a sunk cost, but not for WebM, unless people are only afraid of H.264 patents.
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  20. # [00:08] <Dashiva> As far as I'm aware, Microsoft isn't actually supporting webm, they're just not blocking it from being installed as a regular codec?
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  22. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Dashiva, yes, but they are blocking everything else except H.264, I think.
  23. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Or that was the impression I got.
  24. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> In particular, I don't think they allow Theora.
  25. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Although maybe I'm wrong.
  26. # [00:09] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Indeed
  27. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> So that indicates some level of support for WebM.
  28. # [00:09] <dglazkov> moved: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/XBL2UseCases
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  30. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> My theory is that they don't care about H.264, they don't make much money off it anyway compared to the strategic issues involved, so they'd be okay with WebM if it were really patent-risk-free.
  31. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> Which apparently Google has not done enough to assure them about.
  32. # [00:10] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: All Google has done, AFAIK, is say it isn't.
  33. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> Of course, Google's patent license for WebM doesn't permit implementations other than their own, so that's a reason for anyone else to be wary about relying on it.
  34. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> (Kind of ironic given the current lawsuit against them by Oracle.)
  35. # [00:11] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It does, now.
  36. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> It does?
  37. # [00:11] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: AFAIK ever since it was separated from the license for the impl is has
  38. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> gsnedders,
  39. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, http://www.webmproject.org/about/faq/#what_if_google_receives_or_buys_a_patent_that_covers_the_code_i_receive_sometime_after_i_receive_the_code_do_i_have_a_patent_grant_for_that_patent
  40. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> (id fail)
  41. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Oops.
  42. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Wrong id.
  43. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> http://www.webmproject.org/about/faq/#what_if_someone_makes_a_change_to_the_code_and_gives_it_to_me_do_i_have_a_patent_license_from_google_for_that_change
  44. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> "You still have the right to redistribute but no patent license for the changes (if there are any patents covering it). We can't give patent licenses for changes people make after we distribute the code, as we have no way to predict what those changes will be. Other common licenses take the same approach, including the Apache license."
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  46. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, anyway, all they did *publicly* is say that it isn't. There was almost certainly a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff with the other major players.
  47. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> You'd think it would be in Google's interest to make an indemnification agreement or something. How much could that increase their potential liability, given YouTube? But maybe they figure MS and Apple will come around in time when Google doesn't get sued. Or maybe they did make an offer but it wasn't accepted for some reason.
  48. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
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  110. # [01:59] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/News/2010.html#entry-8982
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  112. # [01:59] <karlcow> over.
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  116. # [02:03] <othermaciej> wow, I had no idea hlink existed
  117. # [02:03] <othermaciej> I wonder what it is
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  131. # [02:13] <karlcow> othermaciej it was for replacing xlink conflicts between WGs
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  180. # [03:03] <erlehmann> in 2010, new links formed!
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  186. # [03:25] <bga_> XQuery XQueryX XQueryXXX %)
  187. # [03:25] <karlcow> erlehmann: where?
  188. # [03:25] <erlehmann> karlcow, hlink. deal with it :3
  189. # [03:25] <erlehmann> bga_, XXXQuery
  190. # [03:25] <karlcow> naaaah. That is super old story
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  192. # [03:26] <karlcow> Previous version:
  193. # [03:26] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-hlink-20020913
  194. # [03:26] <erlehmann> ._.
  195. # [03:26] <karlcow> the doc has been published as a Note now, but it was discussed in 2002.
  196. # [03:27] <erlehmann> karlcow, when i suggested making a letter envelope out of stamps, so that it pays for itself, a friend was like "oh year, [famous blogger] wrote that in 2006 already"
  197. # [03:27] <erlehmann> CSS 2.1 \o/
  198. # [03:27] <karlcow> :)
  199. # [03:29] <bga_> omg
  200. # [03:29] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?type-index=www-html&index-type=t&keywords=hlink&search=Search
  201. # [03:29] <bga_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-xqueryx-30-20101214/#Example1
  202. # [03:30] <bga_> cool examples
  203. # [03:32] <karlcow> ok bga_ now close your browser window and write that down ;)
  204. # [03:33] <karlcow> from memory
  205. # [03:33] <bga_> :)
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  214. # [03:59] <karlcow> <p id="block-64"><time><a href="#block-64" class="block-link" title="Link to update 64">6.37pm:</a></time>
  215. # [03:59] <karlcow> in http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/16/wikileaks-latest-julian-assange-bail-appeal
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  217. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> more about HLink: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HLink
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  223. # [04:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: (re xbl) i dunno if this matters for the issue being raised on that thread, but consider that the user opening/closing a <details> element mutates the dom, as, depending on how you define it, would many other things (e.g. drag and drop, editing a form control, etc)
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  255. # [06:41] <zcorpan> so instead of renaming window.performance, they want to make it [Replaceable]
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  261. # [07:19] <abarth> everything should be replaceable
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  281. # [08:35] <micheil> oh, hi brendaneich
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  330. # [10:44] <Ms2ger> So, did the ghost of the XHTML2 WG finally vanish?
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  332. # [10:50] <bga_> heh double crash of opera 11 :(
  333. # [10:50] <bga_> back to 10.63
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  342. # [10:59] <jgraham> _bga: :( Did you submit the crash reports?
  343. # [11:00] <_bga> yes
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  373. # [12:35] <wes222> hi hixie
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  375. # [12:38] <wes222> i'm sorry to bother, i want to know if you have already accepted w3 bug #11568, i posted it just some minutes ago
  376. # [12:39] <wes222> oh, maybe the "new" status is automatic
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  378. # [12:43] <jgraham> wes222: Be patient :) I expect Hixie is asleep
  379. # [12:45] <wes222> i'm patient, on mozilla's bugzilla the default bug status is "unconfirmed", "new" is set when the bug is verified, for this i was thinking that the bug was already accepted
  380. # [12:45] <wes222> :)
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  402. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> should <meta http-equiv=refresh content="1; url=http://example.com/ "> be valid?
  403. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> note the trailing space in the value of the content attribute
  404. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> I think it's not valid in the current spec
  405. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> but browsers seem to handle it as expected nevertheless
  406. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> and the spec now allows URLs everywhere else to have leading and trailing spaces
  407. # [13:59] <potatis_invalido> MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-meta-http-equiv-refresh
  408. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> actually, browsers seem to handle <meta http-equiv=refresh content="1; url= http://example.com/ "> as expected as well
  409. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> that is, even with leading space
  410. # [14:00] <potatis_invalido> 21. Strip any trailing space characters from the end of url.
  411. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> potatis_invalido: that doesn't mean it's valid
  412. # [14:00] <potatis_invalido> It should be, it's in the spec
  413. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> no
  414. # [14:00] <karlcow> potatis_invalido: there is a difference between processing and writing
  415. # [14:01] <potatis_invalido> Oh, right
  416. # [14:01] <potatis_invalido> You're right.
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  427. # [14:48] <bga_> http://cemerick.com/2010/12/12/oracle-vp-we-have-a-strategy-to-run-java-inside-a-javascript-environment/ :P
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  429. # [14:53] <jgraham> In the future you will be able to run (java in rhino in )*java in javascript
  430. # [14:54] <bga_> yes :)
  431. # [14:54] <bga_> js(java(js(java(....))))
  432. # [14:54] <bga_> inception
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  518. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The only type of DOM mutation that it seems we need to care about are adding/moving/deleting elements. Other mutations don't harm your ability to share the relevant metadata.
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  521. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> Ho-lee crap the XQueryX example is horrifying. That's not something I'd put in a spec. That's something my *opponents* should be using to show how ridiculous my idea is.
  522. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> It's like they just wrote the the AST in XML.
  523. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> (Which is probably exactly what they did.)
  524. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> Okay, I didn't give them credit. It is *slightly* simpler than the AST (which they list slightly further down).
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  527. # [18:16] <dglazkov> you're talking to yourself again
  528. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> Yes I am.
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  530. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> Is that supposed to be a bad thing?
  531. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> Who else are you supposed to talk to if no one else is paying attention?
  532. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> I'm colorblind, and I approve of this app: http://dankaminsky.com/2010/12/15/dankam/
  533. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> You're a colorblind designer? Interesting.
  534. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Probably why I've never been good at the "design" part.
  535. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Dammit, though, I didn't realize I was red-green too. I though I was just blue-green.
  536. # [18:18] <dglazkov> you're color-blind?!
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  551. # [18:51] <Philip`> TabAtkins: If you're red-green colour blind and blue-green colour blind, does that mean you're actually red-green-blue colour blind?
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  553. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> Not quite. They concern different groups of shades.
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  587. # [20:16] <karlcow> http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=any+more,anymore&year_start=1900&year_end=2009&corpus=5&smoothing=3
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  589. # [20:16] <karlcow> we need this tool applied to the source code of Web page
  590. # [20:17] <karlcow> except it will be very unlikely to have precise dates
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  593. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Oh man, I *love* our tools. So cool!
  594. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Aw, "you guys" soundly trounces "y'all".
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  600. # [20:32] <svl> interesting to see the decline of proper English over time: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=traveling%2Ctravelling&year_start=1850&year_end=2008&corpus=5&smoothing=5 - and it's taking hold of British English, too: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=traveling%2Ctravelling&year_start=1850&year_end=2008&corpus=6&smoothing=5
  601. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Haha.
  602. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Easter egg: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=pirates,ninjas&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=5&smoothing=3
  603. # [20:33] <karlcow> someone pointed me to http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=any+more,anymore&year_start=1900&year_end=2009&corpus=5&smoothing=3
  604. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> svl, . . . in what way is "travelling" more proper than "traveling"?
  605. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> My dictionary lists both as acceptable, and gives "traveling" first, and indeed my spellchecker appears to flag "travelling" as an error.
  606. # [20:34] * Joins: miketayl_r (~miketaylr@72-60-197-215.pools.spcsdns.net)
  607. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> The entire notion of "proper English" is fairly ludicrous anyway. By Shakespeare's standards, the English you're speaking is horribly bastardized.
  608. # [20:34] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  609. # [20:35] <svl> Of course!. Sorry, maybe I should've said 'proper' English. :)
  610. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Weird: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=perl,python&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=5&smoothing=3
  611. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Why the spike right after 2000?
  612. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Oh, it says case-sensitive.
  613. # [20:35] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@108.117.110.161) (Disconnected by services)
  614. # [20:36] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
  615. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=Perl,Python&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=5&smoothing=3
  616. # [20:36] <karlcow> python is a snake before being a programming language :p
  617. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's why it started out much higher.
  618. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> What's "perl", though?
  619. # [20:38] <karlcow> AryehGregor: a name
  620. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Then it would be uppercase.
  621. # [20:38] <karlcow> Perl J. C was killed and cut to pieces by train of cars, Nov. 27, 1905, aged 21 years, 5 mo. and 10 days
  622. # [20:38] <karlcow> ah I see your points
  623. # [20:39] <karlcow> ocr mistakes?
  624. # [20:39] <karlcow> http://books.google.com/books?id=koo1AAAAMAAJ&q=Perl&dq=Perl&hl=fr&ei=d7sLTdqBOcrNswaTg6jgDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBQ
  625. # [20:39] <karlcow> per} -> perl
  626. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Heh, yeah.
  627. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Figures.
  628. # [20:50] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  629. # [20:50] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  630. # [20:50] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  631. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Interesting article: http://gskinner.com/blog/archives/2010/12/pirates-love-daisies-html5-game-launches.html
  632. # [20:54] * plomlomp1m is now known as plomlompom
  633. # [21:07] * AryehGregor is very close to just giving up on this part of his final project, given how unbelievably broken the OpenCL compiler is.
  634. # [21:08] <Philip`> Would something like CUDA work any better?
  635. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Well, if I wanted to learn it and rewrite my OpenCL code to use it in the next three days, sure.
  636. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Maybe.
  637. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Or maybe not.
  638. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure how much of this is due to the immaturity of OpenCL and how much to the immaturity of GPGPUs.
  639. # [21:10] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  640. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> I think mostly the former.
  641. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> But this thing is literally just wiping out the contents of variables after I set them.
  642. # [21:11] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  643. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> All changes to global variables seem to be wiped out by some totally unrelated-looking macro I have.
  644. # [21:12] * AryehGregor sighs and debugs some more
  645. # [21:14] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  646. # [21:14] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  653. # [21:33] * AryehGregor notes that the only things on http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/TextFormat_Comparison_Overview that explicitly mentions only "some" people object are the two listed weaknesses of TTML
  654. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> And that "Is not XML." as an advantage of WebSRT is in scare quotes.
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  656. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's pretty clear that advantage is stated sarcastically.
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  700. # Session Close: Sat Dec 18 00:00:00 2010

The end :)