/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Dec 18 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  40. # [01:49] <annevk> fuck XML: http://www.starbucks.com/menu/drinks/tazo-tea/chai-latte (use Opera)
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  42. # [01:54] <Rik`> annevk: this is not the time to drink coffee !
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  44. # [01:55] <annevk> I was attempting to do some background reading for my short post :)
  45. # [01:55] <Rik`> annevk: btw, why do you think image fallback is useless ?
  46. # [01:56] <annevk> it seems like way too complex feature for the gain it gives you
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  48. # [01:56] <annevk> serving up lots of different images; do you see yourself doing it?
  49. # [01:56] <Rik`> yes
  50. # [01:56] <Rik`> I'm actually doing it on my not really up to date resume
  51. # [01:57] <annevk> because?
  52. # [01:57] <Rik`> I wish I could serve SVG and then PNG
  53. # [01:58] <annevk> it seems a new feature is too late to solve that problem
  54. # [01:58] <Rik`> this one
  55. # [01:58] <Rik`> but what about new image formats ?
  56. # [01:58] <annevk> I think we can handle a new image format every ten years without much trouble
  57. # [02:00] <Rik`> I think it makes it harder to introduce new image formats
  58. # [02:00] <Rik`> none of the jpeg alternatives as been widely used
  59. # [02:00] <Rik`> or apng/mng
  60. # [02:01] <annevk> APNG just does not have wide enough adoption yet
  61. # [02:01] <Rik`> like SVG
  62. # [02:02] <Rik`> when a new format is introduced, you have to wait for complete interoperability to use it
  63. # [02:02] <annevk> APNG has fallback
  64. # [02:02] <Rik`> with fonts, video and audio, you don't need that
  65. # [02:02] <annevk> I think the situation with font formats is not very nice either
  66. # [02:03] <Rik`> if I'm doing a throbber, I need the animation
  67. # [02:03] <Rik`> so I would like to use APNG for maximum quality and GIF as a fallback
  68. # [02:04] <Rik`> the only problem that I know with fonts is that IE doesn't know how to parse format()
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  70. # [02:04] <annevk> I'm somewhat skeptical people would go through all that trouble
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  72. # [02:04] <annevk> Some people would, sure, but most?
  73. # [02:05] <Rik`> I think it's quite important regarding the interest for web performance
  74. # [02:05] <annevk> E.g. with <video> the situation seems to be H264 or Flash :/
  75. # [02:06] <annevk> Though YouTube does do the honorable thing there, admittedly
  76. # [02:06] <Rik`> this is only because contents are already encoded in H264
  77. # [02:06] <annevk> I think there's more interesting things to focus on... Like styling form controls.
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  79. # [02:07] <Rik`> oh yes,
  80. # [02:07] <annevk> Anyway, should really be sleeping now :)
  81. # [02:07] <Rik`> without coffee :)
  82. # [02:08] <annevk> or tea, yes :)
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  105. # [02:57] <heycam> "Apologies for cross-posting"? maybe don't do that then...
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  109. # [02:57] <othermaciej> it wasn't even a proper cross-post
  110. # [02:58] <heycam> yeah, it's worse than a proper cross-post
  111. # [02:58] <heycam> made me realise how many w3c lists i'm subscribed to though :o
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  113. # [03:02] * smaug____ got that email 14 times
  114. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/brianleroux/status/15936952956096512 "While V8 is fast it has no access to the Android APIs without authoring bridge code. Rhino reflects. This is nice and fast."
  115. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> maybe I'll write write Java bindings to V8
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  122. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> oh, that wouldn't do anything to help that problem
  123. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> so maybe I won't do it after all
  124. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> heycam: do you use mercurial patch queues much?
  125. # [03:26] <heycam> MikeSmith, yeah, but I'm no pro
  126. # [03:26] <heycam> just simple uses so far
  127. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> I've been catching up on validator bugs lately, and with getting it more up to date with the spec -- adding the track element and such
  128. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> meanwhile. I have stuff in my workspace that I'm not ready to push to the main validator repo
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  130. # [03:31] <heycam> sounds like a reasonable thing to use queues for
  131. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> but would like to have it in a repo other than just my local workspace, and maybe versioned while I'm working on it, so I can roll back if I need to
  132. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> heycam: do you push your patch queues to somewhere, or do you just maintain them in your local workspace repo?
  133. # [03:32] <heycam> MikeSmith, just in my local workspace repo. I have wanted to push them somewhere though, so that my current unfinished patches are viewable/fetchable from elsewhere.
  134. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  135. # [03:33] <heycam> MikeSmith, I suspect that involves having the patch queue being versioned and then somehow pushing that periodically.
  136. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  137. # [03:33] <Rik`> why not use branches ?
  138. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> heycam; bitbucket has some features to facilitate that
  139. # [03:34] <heycam> aha
  140. # [03:34] <heycam> Rik`, could well be that branches support this better
  141. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> Rik`: yeah, branches are certainly be a way
  142. # [03:34] <heycam> I'm learning hg purely by using it in the ways mozilla people do
  143. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> I'm just trying to figure out if this mercurial patch queue thing is a better way for my case or not
  144. # [03:34] <heycam> which might not be the "canonical" way...
  145. # [03:35] <heycam> MikeSmith, I can't compare it to anything else then, sorry :)
  146. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> the mozilla docs on it are nice
  147. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> heycam: I noticed your name on the mozilla tutorial page about using queues
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  149. # [03:36] <heycam> MikeSmith, I must've made some exceptionally minor edit to the page last :-)
  150. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> the caveats on that page should be in the main upstream docs for the patch-queue feature
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  152. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> the stuff about, "Be very careful because this feature can cause you to lose changes" or whatever
  153. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> "You can destroy work with MQ. MQ puts you in a position where you're doing fairly complicated stuff to your uncommitted work. Certain operations make it easy to lose work. Watch your step.
  154. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mercurial_queues
  155. # [03:38] <heycam> MikeSmith, yeah it seems like good advice
  156. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> yeah
  157. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> and it's great that it's right at the top of the page
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  159. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: fyi about HLink - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/HLink
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  162. # [03:48] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: that was dull, can't I have a tracker issue or a poll or anything?
  163. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> heh
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  165. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: hey, when you think you might have that schema published?
  166. # [03:51] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.104.71)
  167. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> or deployed in W3C space, I mean
  168. # [03:54] <david_carlisle> There was some grumblings about calling it a mathml2 schema. Would it cause you problems if I called it mathml3-restricted, or something?
  169. # [03:54] <david_carlisle> I'd have done it before probably except there wore some day job things supposed to be done before, er now:-)
  170. # [03:55] <david_carlisle> s/wore/were/
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  172. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: yeah, I saw the comment from Robert Miner
  173. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> I don't mind what it's called
  174. # [03:56] <david_carlisle> OK will rebuild it under that name and pass it by the group this weekend (I'll cc you)
  175. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> OK
  176. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> I suppose in the validator UI we are probably going to keep it labeled as MathML 2.0
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  179. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> "MathML 2.0 subset of MathML 3.0" is kind of long for a label
  180. # [03:59] <david_carlisle> Could w3c validator (at least) also have an option to use full mml3. IE9+mathplayer will be able to support pretty much all of mml3, and while the restricted schema is useful to warn the limits of interoperabilty, seems a bit harsh not to let people see the full version is in fact valid
  181. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> It could, sure
  182. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> but I don't work on the main validator
  183. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> only indirectly, on just the HTML5 facet
  184. # [04:00] <david_carlisle> must admit i've only used validator.nu recently:-)
  185. # [04:00] <david_carlisle> is the main one still nsgmls/dtd based?
  186. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> validator.nu lets you check against arbitrary relaxng schemas already
  187. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, it is
  188. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> long in the tooth
  189. # [04:01] <david_carlisle> so am i
  190. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  191. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> there really has been only one person working on the validator for the last couple years
  192. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> Ville Skyttä
  193. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> and he's done some good stuff
  194. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> and fixed a lot of bugs
  195. # [04:02] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: interesting; I couldn't tell from skimming the HLink draft how it differed from XLink
  196. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I've never really read through it
  197. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> the interesting thing about it to me was the whole background on it
  198. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> I think the HTML WG at the time had reviewed the XLink spec, and given the XLink group comments on it -- asked for changes to bring it in line with their work on XHTML2
  199. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> and the changes were never made
  200. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> so, they decided not to adopt it
  201. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> and came up with HLink instead
  202. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> and then TAG apparently told them they had to use XLink instead
  203. # [04:05] <david_carlisle> the old html grp repeatedly asked that xlink not have fixed attribute names so it could be used for existing html attributes, but that got turned down in favour of xlink:href etc
  204. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> and they said No
  205. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  206. # [04:06] <david_carlisle> same problem with xml:id really, it;s Ok in theory for a new language but a pain to have to break an existing use if id, just to use it
  207. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> yep
  208. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> anyway, the HLink case is a precedent for groups not just adopting a Rec because its a Rec
  209. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> or because they're told to
  210. # [04:06] <othermaciej> it is certainly interesting in that light
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  226. # [04:37] <david_carlisle> james c again on being friendly to html5: http://blog.jclark.com/2010/12/more-on-microxml.html
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  318. # [13:21] <annevk> oh, missed out on responding to http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-118-objection-poll/results
  319. # [13:21] <annevk> rel values prolly require some further study anyway\
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  323. # [13:56] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-xml/2010Dec/0002.html
  324. # [13:57] <hsivonen> the HTML-XML task force is getting started
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  329. # [14:13] <annevk> nice opening message
  330. # [14:13] <annevk> oh, and good luck :)
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  335. # [14:33] <jgraham> annevk: No more depressing stories about schiphol, please
  336. # [14:33] <jgraham> Supposed to be flying through there Monday
  337. # [14:34] <jgraham> Being trapped in Sweden over Christmas sounds too awful for words
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  339. # [14:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: That TF has membership by private invitation?
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  341. # [14:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah
  342. # [14:53] <jgraham> Sad
  343. # [14:55] <bga_> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/bfjhgapggdjickppeacklbnlgkkckibl
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  416. # [21:28] * Joins: Darxus (~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com)
  417. # [21:33] <Darxus> I would love to see wikipedia style references in HTML5. You put your reference in <ref></ref>s immediately after your quotation or something, it gets replaced with automatically numbered <sup>[1]</sup>, and at the bottom of the page you include a <references /> where all the contents of the refs are listed.
  418. # [21:33] <Darxus> Didn't see anything about that possibility being discussed in some brief googling...
  419. # [21:33] <Darxus> Footnotes...
  420. # [21:34] <Darxus> Much easier than http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#footnotes
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  422. # [21:39] <Philip`> Darxus: I think it's been discussed several times, which is why that section was added to the spec
  423. # [21:40] <Darxus> Philip`: That seemed likely. Do you know of any records of the discussion?
  424. # [21:41] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-April/014485.html
  425. # [21:42] <Darxus> Thank you.
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The end :)