/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-20 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  26. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> This is simply fascinating: http://www.popcenter.org/problems/
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  60. # [03:57] <boblet> hey all. time’s @datetime must be “valid date string with optional time” — does this exclude 2.5.5.4 Local dates and times (datetime without timezone)?
  61. # [03:57] <boblet> or, is timezone required for @datetime datetimes?
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  67. # [04:14] <boblet> Hixie: does @datetime (requires “valid date string with optional time”) linking to 2.5.5.7 (requires timezone) mean local datetime is invalid? link text indicates no, link target indicates yes
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  109. # [07:10] <Hixie> boblet: not sure what you're asking exactly
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  167. # [10:59] <boblet> Hixie: when using <time datetime=""> is it ok to use a datetime without a timezone (floating time), or is a timezone (or Z) required?
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  198. # [12:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: how did you decide on the details of the behavior of document.readyState? Did you spec the behavior of a browser exactly and, if so, which browser?
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  202. # [12:55] <krijnh> Dashiva: could be nice, if the important lines feature is used correctly. I'm not really following the logs, but is it?
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  204. # [12:57] <krijnh> (Got 24043 important lines flagged now)
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  210. # [13:28] <jgraham> krijnh: You should make it like all these newfangled social sites and hand out achievement badges for getting different numbers of lines in yellow
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  212. # [13:29] <annevk> reddit upvotes for lines
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  229. # [14:37] <Dashiva> krijnh: It seems to be generally useful
  230. # [14:37] <Dashiva> But I still think it should have tags
  231. # [14:38] <Dashiva> Informative, controversial, funny, etc
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  234. # [14:42] <spliter> hello. Is there any appropriate tag to mark a dictionary term in HTML5?
  235. # [14:43] <hsivonen> spliter: <i> or <b>
  236. # [14:45] <spliter> thanks hsivonen. But I mean is there anything more suitable than just italics or bold. More semantically correct. These tags don't bring any semantic meaning in my opinion
  237. # [14:46] <Dashiva> There's no special tag for dictionary terms, no
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  239. # [14:46] <Dashiva> What do you plan to do with this special markup for dictionary terms?
  240. # [14:47] <spliter> Dashiva: I have site's logo and then,plan to use dictionary term as a sort of tagline that explains the site's name using dictionary term
  241. # [14:49] <Dashiva> Seems like that'd be better suited for a header element
  242. # [14:49] <spliter> Dashiva: I am wrapping logo and this tagline/dict term into <header>
  243. # [14:50] <spliter> don't feel like nesting <header>s
  244. # [14:50] <jgraham> <hgroup><h1>Perplexed</h1><h2>A state of confusion</h2></hgroup>
  245. # [14:50] <spliter> aha, jgraham that looks more appropriate indeed
  246. # [14:50] <spliter> thanks. That might work
  247. # [14:51] <spliter> but... then I need to wrap logo image into <h1>. Would it be semantically correct?
  248. # [14:51] <spliter> logo is an image. Not even wrapped into a link (it's just one-page without any navigation)
  249. # [14:52] <Dashiva> As long as the alt text is proper, probably
  250. # [14:53] <jgraham> Yeah, logo as <h1> is fine with correct alt text
  251. # [14:54] <spliter> ok, guys. Thanks. Will go for <hgroup> and headers then
  252. # [14:54] <jgraham> The acid test is "if I remove this image and leave the alt text only, does the page still make sense and convey the same information"
  253. # [14:54] <spliter> yeah, that is clear jgraham. Just was not sure about usage of image within <h1>
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  269. # [15:53] <adactio> Just to clarify: an hgroup element can only contain h1 to h6, so it can't have an img in there. But h1-h6 allow phrasing content (including img) so it *is* okay to have an img inside hgroup ...as long as it's wrapped in an h1-h6. Have I got that right?
  270. # [15:53] <Dashiva> Yeah
  271. # [15:54] <adactio> Coolio.
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  275. # [16:05] <zcorpan> hmm, making compression mandatory might be better than xor masking
  276. # [16:05] <zcorpan> (in websockets)
  277. # [16:07] <Philip`> I thought the idea was to prevent the attacker determining the bytes that go over the wire
  278. # [16:08] <Philip`> and with compression it seems relatively easy for them to determine that, since it's not random
  279. # [16:08] <zcorpan> that's indeed the point
  280. # [16:09] <zcorpan> i don't know enough about compression algorithms
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  307. # [17:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: here's a proper answer to what new "html5 stuff" we've got http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2010/12/17/new-html5-features-in-opera-11
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  329. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> annevk: What do you think about image()'s other fallback feature, of letting you fallback to another image (possibly a browser-generated one) when the first image 404s or is otherwise unavailable?
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  333. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that sounds slow.
  334. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Yes? It's not meant for speed, in particular.
  335. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> I guess.
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  337. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> I still think the format fallback is useful, for cases like falling back from APNG to GIF (when maintaining the animation is more important than APNG's normal fallback of maintaining the image), or for handling new formats.
  338. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Given that content negotiation is an unsalvageable failure, you're saying.
  339. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> But I agree that the syntax isn't great. I'd prefer doing this automatically through an @image block, with a format similar to @font-face.
  340. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sure.
  341. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> That sounds more awkward if you're using a lot of images only a few times each.
  342. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> image() sounds like a better idea than that.
  343. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Indeed it is.
  344. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> But you're not solving the fallback problem for anything other than CSS.
  345. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> So it doesn't seem like a great solution.
  346. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> True, though you can use CSS to solve the fallback problem for <img>.
  347. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> In practice, new image formats have been successfully adopted, so is this really needed?
  348. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> (By using the fallback in the 'content' property.)
  349. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Either you just wait till all browsers you care about support it, or (if you really care) use JS detection of some kind.
  350. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> I don't see a real need for declarative fallback here.
  351. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> Also, image formats can themselves allow for fallback in various ways, like how APNG can fall back to PNG.
  352. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> Or <svg>-in-HTML can fall back to anything.
  353. # [18:32] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  354. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> I just mentioned one example of how you may want to fallback in a different axis than the image format natively supports, like preserving the animation aspect of APNG by falling back to GIF.
  355. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> How does SVG do fallback?
  356. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> It only does if it's in HTML. Then you can stick an <img> in some tag where SVG will ignore it, but browsers that don't support SVG will treat all the tags except the <img> as unrecognized wrappers.
  357. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see. SVG can, itself, fall back. Gotcha.
  358. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> I don't remember which tag you're supposed to use for this, but it works, because SVG doesn't have non-whitespace content in any of its elements.
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  373. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> I'm happy I tracked down why I kept getting calls about leaky baptismal fonts. I was just able to redirect a dude to the correct number.
  374. # [19:03] <miketaylr> O_O
  375. # [19:04] <Philip`> Did you tell them to use WOFF?
  376. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Wrong type of font. ^_^
  377. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> A recent website update on some baptismal font maker in Houston put the wrong area code on the phone number in their header.
  378. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Ooh: http://code.bocoup.com/dataurl/
  379. # [19:07] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: what's a babtismal font?
  380. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: A little sink-like thing of water that you baptize babies in.
  381. # [19:08] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: ok. so nothing to do with fonts
  382. # [19:08] <TabAtkins> No, it's just called a font, as in "font of wisdom" and such.
  383. # [19:08] <hsivonen> (I failed by using define: googing instead of regular googling)
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  386. # [19:12] <Dashiva> Whenever someone uses font in that meaning I am reminded of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/08/26/
  387. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> Heh.
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  397. # [19:24] <annevk> TabAtkins, how often do you get a 404 image?
  398. # [19:24] <annevk> TabAtkins, and why can't your 404 page be an image?
  399. # [19:24] <annevk> (images are always shown)
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  401. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> Hmm, it could be.
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  439. # [20:14] <Hixie> hsivonen: i do not recall
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  448. # [20:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. by source inspection, it looks surprisingly close to Gecko
  449. # [20:37] <Hixie> why "surprisingly"?
  450. # [20:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: too bad the behavior doesn't make as much sense as it could if designed rather than evolved
  451. # [20:38] <Hixie> welcome to the web
  452. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: previously, IIRC, you had shown reluctance to use all the existing readyState states
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  454. # [20:38] <Hixie> i guess someone must have convinced me that i was wrong :-)
  455. # [20:40] <hsivonen> it's particularly sad that readyState goes "interactive before defer scripts but DOMContentLoaded fires after
  456. # [20:41] <hsivonen> it would be nice if the same task queue task that fires DOMContentLoaded flipped readyState
  457. # [20:41] <hsivonen> too late I guess
  458. # [20:41] <hsivonen> too late to change that is
  459. # [20:42] <hsivonen> jQuery expects a relationship between DOMContentLoaded and "complete", but the relationship isn't strictly there
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  462. # [20:48] <Hixie> hey anyone want to be our group representative for freenode?
  463. # [20:52] * paul_irish offers.
  464. # [20:54] <Hixie> cool, someone will contact you
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  466. # [20:54] <Hixie> and thanks!
  467. # [20:55] <paul_irish> np!
  468. # [21:00] <hober> I'd be happy to as well
  469. # [21:01] <Hixie> well it's not paul_irish's job to delegate as he sees fit :-)
  470. # [21:01] <Hixie> er
  471. # [21:01] <Hixie> it's _now_
  472. # [21:02] <hober> heh, indeed
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  511. # [22:28] * Martinp23 sets mode: +o paul_irish
  512. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Ah, we're finally op'ing? Goodbye to an amazing legacy of no ops.
  513. # [22:28] <_bga> :(
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  515. # [22:31] * ChanServ sets mode: -s+c
  516. # [22:36] <Lachy> TabAtkins, huh? How did we get an op in here?
  517. # [22:36] <oojacoboo> doesn't css3 have gradient support outside the browser specific prefixing?
  518. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie asked if anyone wanted to be our "group representative for freenode". paul_irish volunteered.
  519. # [22:37] <oojacoboo> I can't seem to find any docs on it... :/
  520. # [22:37] <Hixie> i've no idea if we'll actually get ops
  521. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: Yes, dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images describes the gradient functions. Moz's current experimental implementation is closest to the spec.
  522. # [22:37] <@paul_irish> Martinp23 is the freenode guy. i think he was just testing out op.
  523. # [22:37] <Hixie> i kinda hope we don't get ops :-)
  524. # [22:37] <Lachy> ok
  525. # [22:38] <@paul_irish> PM me if you want op access in here.
  526. # [22:38] <oojacoboo> images.... grrr
  527. # [22:38] <Martinp23> hehe, nah, I needed to give you op access so you could register the channel :)
  528. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: Huh?
  529. # [22:38] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.254.210) (Quit: .)
  530. # [22:38] <Lachy> we haven't needed them for the past 6 years, but ok
  531. # [22:38] <@paul_irish> Martinp23: its all regged. i'm good.
  532. # [22:38] <oojacoboo> I hardly consider that an appropriate place for gradient
  533. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: I'm confused. A gradient is a type of image. What else would it be?
  534. # [22:38] <oojacoboo> a background color?
  535. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> (More properly, it's a type of paint server, which is a generalization of images.)
  536. # [22:38] <oojacoboo> I don't know
  537. # [22:39] <oojacoboo> doesn't seem like an image to me, just b/c people used images in the past to achieve it doesn't make it an image
  538. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> It's certainly not a color. Colors are dimensionless and sizeless.
  539. # [22:39] <oojacoboo> it's a gradient ;)
  540. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> I don't understand what is wrong with calling it an image.
  541. # [22:39] <oojacoboo> b/c it's not one
  542. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> That's just a term for "2-dimensional rectangle of patterned color".
  543. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> What are you trying to define "image" as that doesn't apply to gradients?
  544. # [22:40] <oojacoboo> well, maybe I just don't know then, b/c I consider an image to be something linked in
  545. # [22:40] <oojacoboo> aka, an image
  546. # [22:40] <oojacoboo> with an image type
  547. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> The linking nature certainly has nothing to do with something being an image. It's a property of the content.
  548. # [22:40] * paul_irish sets mode: -o paul_irish
  549. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Under your definition, data urls might not be urls. <canvas> certainly wouldn't be.
  550. # [22:41] <oojacoboo> pretty soon everything will be an image then
  551. # [22:41] <oojacoboo> esp since I can apply gradient to nearly anything
  552. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> s/might not be urls/might not be images/.
  553. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> I have no idea what you're thinking about. It is certainly not true that everything will be an image.
  554. # [22:41] <oojacoboo> border: gradient()
  555. # [22:41] <oojacoboo> image?
  556. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> border: gradient() makes no sense. Borders have a color. Border-image would work, though.
  557. # [22:42] <oojacoboo> oh, so you can't use linear-gradient() on border: ?
  558. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> (That said, you can define a sensible rectangle for borders such that they can take paint servers instead of colors.
  559. # [22:43] <oojacoboo> servers?
  560. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> No, gradients are a type of <image>, same as url(). Any place you can use url() to pull in an image, you can use gradient() to construct one instead.
  561. # [22:44] <oojacoboo> border-image: linear-gradient() ?
  562. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Sorry, paint server is kind of a bad term. It has nothing to do with network servers. It just means something which can provide a pattern. SVG uses the term as a generalization of images.
  563. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's fine.
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  565. # [22:44] <oojacoboo> gotcha
  566. # [22:44] <oojacoboo> seems a bit confusing but w/e
  567. # [22:44] <oojacoboo> I would have much preferred a bit of simplicity
  568. # [22:45] <oojacoboo> I get the url() gradient() replacement, just thought we might have a shorthand for border:
  569. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> It's definitely simple. Your mental model is just constructed differently, so it doesn't fit your head quite right. You're interpreting that as complexity, because you have to create several exceptions and special-case rules to make the concept fit the shape of your understanding.
  570. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Fix the shape of your understanding instead, and you see that it's extremely simple. ^_^
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  572. # [22:46] <oojacoboo> I'm getting that, which is def what has to happen, just not how my logic would have put it together
  573. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> It is indeed somewhat unfortunate that the color and border-color properties were defined in such a way that only <color>s are appropriate for them. This can be fixed, though - webkit, for example, hacks around the issue of 'color' only taking colors by defining a background-attachment value that means "use this image for painting the text".
  574. # [22:48] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  575. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> It would be better to just define 'color' to take a color or image, and define the size of the rectangle that images are painted into. It should be the same thing that backgrounds are painted into.
  576. # [22:49] <oojacoboo> I just like the thought of thinking of a gradient as a color
  577. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Similarly, border-color would have a painting area of the border box.
  578. # [22:49] <oojacoboo> like in photoshop how it's treated
  579. # [22:49] <oojacoboo> you could apply it to nearly anything
  580. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> I know how you're thinking, it's just backwards. Think instead that Photoshop always deals with images, and colors are just solid-color images with no intrinsic dimensions.
  581. # [22:50] <oojacoboo> I guess I am thinking of it more from a use case and not a development perspective
  582. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> (Gradients don't have intrinsic dimensions either, so they work similarly.)
  583. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> In other words, think of gradients as images, and instead of "blue" think of something like "linear-gradient(blue, blue)".
  584. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> (Or, as you can write in the Image Values module, "image(blue)", which turns it from a <color> into an <image>.)
  585. # [22:51] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Quit: david_carlisle)
  586. # [22:51] <oojacoboo> mmm
  587. # [22:51] <oojacoboo> yea... reprogramming... :/
  588. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> The difference is just that colors can be painted into anything without having to worry about what the size of the painting rectangle is, because colors are perfectly uniform. Images, like gradients, need to know the size of the rectangle they're being drawn into, so they can size themselves appropriately.
  589. # [22:52] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: if you rely on pixel based gradients
  590. # [22:53] <oojacoboo> variable based gradients wouldn't be constricted
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  592. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> No, all gradients. Scalable gradients still need to know what size to scale themselves to.
  593. # [22:54] <oojacoboo> right, yea, but they can get that from the parent element
  594. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Same thing applies to SVG, for example.
  595. # [22:54] <oojacoboo> the styled element*
  596. # [22:54] <oojacoboo> I guess that might require reprocessing
  597. # [22:54] <oojacoboo> and repainting
  598. # [22:54] <oojacoboo> like a table
  599. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> No they can't. You want a different rectangle for backgrounds and borders, for example.
  600. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> And a third rectangle for <img>, once that gets exposed in a proper way for CSS (<img>'s linked image is drawn into the content box).
  601. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> (Backgrounds paint into the padding box by default, though that can be changed to the border or content box.)
  602. # [22:57] <oojacoboo> yea
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  605. # [23:02] <Hixie> can anyone remind me why we're doing window.createObjectURL(blob) rather than blob.url ?
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  609. # [23:10] <oojacoboo> Hixie: keeping it interesting
  610. # [23:10] <Hixie> i guess if you pass a blob around to another window the other window wouldn't be able to get a local-lifetime-bound url
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  612. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I didn't understand the reasoning well enough to remember it perfectly, but it was something to do with not exposing GC behavior when passing urls between windows, yeah.
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  614. # [23:17] <Hixie> sicking: we already have a registry
  615. # [23:18] <Hixie> heycam, sicking: i don't follow how the proposal lets you just check name instead of checking code. can you elaborate?
  616. # [23:19] <heycam> Hixie, you would mint a new IDL exception that you otherwise would have an exception/code combination currently
  617. # [23:19] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  618. # [23:19] <heycam> these exceptions must have a unique identifier in the idl, across all specs
  619. # [23:19] <heycam> the .name property is set to the identifier of the exception
  620. # [23:19] <Hixie> right now for all the APIs I use all i check is .code
  621. # [23:19] <Hixie> how do all those .codes get names?
  622. # [23:20] <Hixie> i don't follow
  623. # [23:20] <heycam> for new APIs, they wouldn't have codes. you just mint your exception with a given identifier and that gives the .name.
  624. # [23:21] <heycam> for existing APIs, these objects would also have a .code
  625. # [23:21] <heycam> so you could continue checking against that, because we obviously can't break that
  626. # [23:21] <heycam> but they would also have the .name
  627. # [23:21] <heycam> and would be instanceof NoModificationAllowedError, for example
  628. # [23:22] <Hixie> sounds like a lot of extra complexity for no benefit, to me, but ok
  629. # [23:22] <Hixie> file a bug at some point letting me know what i have to do to make it all work in the specs i edit :-)
  630. # [23:22] <heycam> ok
  631. # [23:23] <heycam> well let's see if other people respond favourably or not first
  632. # [23:23] <heycam> i'll file a bug if/when i make the webidl change
  633. # [23:23] <Hixie> personally i much prefer that the platform have one semi-sucky way of doing things than it having two ways of doing the thing, even if the second way is better
  634. # [23:24] <Hixie> every piece of duplicate funcationality is a source of new bugs
  635. # [23:24] <Hixie> or rather, every piece of funcationality is a source of new bugs, but duplicate functionality just adds new bugs without adding new functionality
  636. # [23:25] <heycam> it adds a little functionality -- it allows spec writers to hieararchically arrange their exceptions if they so wish
  637. # [23:25] <heycam> and then authors can easily test for a whole branch of that hierarchy
  638. # [23:25] <heycam> even if there is no new functionality, but it makes the platform easier to write for, there's still a case to be made for such changes i think
  639. # [23:26] <Hixie> it doesn't make the platform easier to write for
  640. # [23:26] <Hixie> it makes it harder to write for
  641. # [23:26] <Hixie> because now you have to learn two ways of doing the same thing, and learn the bugs for each browser for both ways, and learn how they interact
  642. # [23:26] <Hixie> a web author can't just ignore the less good parts of the platform -- they have to know it all so that they can edit other people's code
  643. # [23:26] <Hixie> this is why perl is a write-only language
  644. # [23:27] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  645. # [23:27] <Hixie> because there are so many ways of doing the same thing that most perl authors only know a tiny subset of the whole language
  646. # [23:27] <Hixie> so they can edit their own perl code but not anyone else's
  647. # [23:28] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.230) (Quit: estes)
  648. # [23:28] <heycam> over time you can migrate to a saner, more consistent feature set authors can write against
  649. # [23:28] <heycam> obviously there will be old code that uses old stuff
  650. # [23:28] <heycam> just like there is old crazy stuff on the web now
  651. # [23:29] <heycam> authors don't need to know every single historical aspect of the web platform that is currently supported in order to do their work
  652. # [23:29] <Hixie> what don't they have to know?
  653. # [23:30] <Hixie> can you point to any api that we've been able to banish from what authors need to know to do their job?
  654. # [23:30] <Hixie> (banish while replacing with duplicate but better-designed functionality, i mean)
  655. # [23:30] <heycam> for a given project they're working on, they don't need to know everything
  656. # [23:30] <Hixie> that's not really how knowledge works :-)
  657. # [23:31] <Hixie> you're not a "web developer" if you have to relearn everything for each project
  658. # [23:31] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.230)
  659. # [23:31] <Hixie> the whole point of being a developer in a certain area of expertise is that your knowledge is transferable
  660. # [23:31] <heycam> not relearn, but learn additional things
  661. # [23:31] <heycam> if they are working on something that uses "the old way" of doing something, then sure, they have to know about that
  662. # [23:31] <heycam> if they're not, they don't
  663. # [23:32] <heycam> over time the chance that they'll need to know about "the old way" diminishes
  664. # [23:32] <Hixie> can you point to an example where we've done this?
  665. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I can now depend on querySelector rather than the getElement* methods.
  666. # [23:33] * Joins: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-tlwyexalpuauspym)
  667. # [23:33] <Hixie> heycam: as far as i can tell everywhere where we have duplicate functionality, authors have to know both to be considered proficient web authors
  668. # [23:33] <heycam> hey who said anything about "proficient" ;)
  669. # [23:33] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah but you still need to know how getElement* work if you do web development work
  670. # [23:34] <Hixie> heycam: i think we should consider it a serious failure on our part if we make it impossible for any web dev to be proficient
  671. # [23:34] <heycam> the web's history is still pretty short, so i wouldn't be surprised if i couldn't think up of such a feature now. it's a long term thing, imo.
  672. # [23:34] <Hixie> 20 years is not that short :-P
  673. # [23:34] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  674. # [23:35] <Hixie> how about any other platform?
  675. # [23:35] <Hixie> win32, say
  676. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Are you asking whether anyone understands all or even most of Win32?
  677. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> I think the answer is "no", although admittedly I'm not an expert on it.
  678. # [23:36] <heycam> sure, at a really broad level let's take plain Win32 to .NET
  679. # [23:36] <Hixie> win32 has all kinds of duplicate apis that were added pretty much with the same rationale (As far as i can tell): let's add a better API so that devs won't have to worry about the previous API
  680. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> (nor, indeed, do I even really know anything about it, except that it's huge)
  681. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> Yes, that certainly seems to be true.
  682. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> Contrast to Unix.
  683. # [23:37] <Hixie> even in my brief experience doing win32 programming a few years ago, i ended up having to learn all kinds of duplicate APIs and how they interacted
  684. # [23:37] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  685. # [23:37] <heycam> that these APIs can't disappear within the same kind of time frame (or at all?), is kind of a separate issue
  686. # [23:37] <Hixie> it's not that they can't disappear, it's that devs have to know them to do their job, because legacy code will have them forever and will still need to be maintained
  687. # [23:38] <heycam> but web authors aren't going to be working on a 2010-written web page for ever
  688. # [23:39] <heycam> browsers should keep such things working, sure, but authors are going to either not be working on those pages, or will have migrated them
  689. # [23:39] <Hixie> sure, they'll be working on 2030-written-pages that evolved from 2005-written-pages
  690. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> No, they'll be working on something that was copy-pasted from 2010-written pages.
  691. # [23:39] <Hixie> exactly
  692. # [23:39] <Hixie> or they'll use some library that picked up something in 2010 and that in 2030 conflicts with the "better" api
  693. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> Just look at the source of a random web page that's not maintained by particularly sophisticated coders. A lot of them still use 1990s style throughout.
  694. # [23:40] <heycam> as these evolutions happen, the longer you look out, the less likely these vestigial features will be left in these pages
  695. # [23:40] <Hixie> i'm all for making the life of people in 2070 better, but i don't think we should do it at the cost of the life of people between 2010 and 2070 :-)
  696. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> For instance, here's a page I happened to have open right now: view-source:http://www.khronos.org/registry/cl/sdk/1.1/docs/man/xhtml/Opencl_tofc.html
  697. # [23:40] <heycam> heh
  698. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> HTML 4.01 Transitional doctype.
  699. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> <script> that's commented out.
  700. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> When was the last browser that needed <script>s commented out?
  701. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Like probably NN2 or something?
  702. # [23:41] <heycam> ages ago, sure
  703. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> I cargo-culted the script commenting when I first started webdev. @language, too.
  704. # [23:41] <heycam> i'm not making any claims on what kinds of time frames these will be
  705. # [23:41] <heycam> me too, i think we all did
  706. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Another page I have open: http://www.popcenter.org/problems/identity_theft/
  707. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> That one's pretty sophisticated, it even uses jQuery.
  708. # [23:42] <heycam> anyway, i don't think this change (the exception thing) will really make the lives of people between 2010 and 2070 appreciably worse
  709. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> But it has language="javascript".
  710. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> I admit that I find the way js handles HTML comments particularly clever (making <!-- start a one-line comment, and the fact that the HTML parser doesn't care if --> is preceded by //).
  711. # [23:42] <Hixie> i think there's a huge opportunity cost to adding new features that duplicate old features, which is not offset by the potential long-term win. We would IMHO do better to add new features that are not duplicates -- we would still help people long-term, but we wouldn't increase the complexity on authors medium-term
  712. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Complication adds up.
  713. # [23:43] * TabAtkins loves multi-language programs that exploit differing commenting syntaxes.
  714. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> One thing that's a good idea is to add new features that generalize old features and *also* fix their problems. Like querySelector() instead of getElement*().
  715. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Then the generalization makes the feature worth it, and hopefully the old feature will die one day.
  716. # [23:44] <heycam> yes that could help make the timeframe shorter
  717. # [23:44] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben)
  718. # [23:44] <Hixie> yes, querySelector() makes sense because it adds a lot of functionality
  719. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> There are *some* web features that have died such that implementers can remove them, right? I know I've seen some that not all browsers implemented, at least.
  720. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> I can't immediately think of any that all browsers implemented but that could be removed anyway . . .
  721. # [23:44] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't know of any that were ever implemented in the majority of deployed browsers
  722. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Of course, they'd presumably be so obscure that I'd have never heard of them.
  723. # [23:45] <Hixie> browser-specific features have definitely died
  724. # [23:45] <Hixie> <spacer>, e.g.
  725. # [23:45] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-lfuurgkunkhqkhty) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  726. # [23:45] <Hixie> bbiab
  727. # [23:48] * Quits: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  728. # [23:49] <Philip`> I imagine you can be a decent web developer nowadays without knowing much about framesets or spacer GIFs or web-safe colour palettes
  729. # [23:51] <Dashiva> Or IE6 bug workarounds
  730. # [23:51] <oojacoboo> instead there are just other issues
  731. # [23:51] <oojacoboo> mobile, etc
  732. # [23:52] <oojacoboo> it's not this nirvana, as you paint it
  733. # [23:54] <Dashiva> The bar has been raised significantly
  734. # [23:54] <oojacoboo> what analogical bar is this?
  735. # [23:55] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.210.175) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  736. # [23:56] <Dashiva> The challenge of yesteryear was designing a page that worked in two different browsers on the same computer. Nowadays it's designing a page that works on multiple platforms, widely different hardware and screen sizes and network capabilities
  737. # [23:57] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  738. # [23:57] <oojacoboo> agreed, so, I don't see how the statement made by Philip` is really applicable
  739. # [23:57] <oojacoboo> sure, you can make a simple webpage easier than you could 10 years ago, but, the web didn't stop innovating
  740. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> The point is that some skills were once required of web developers and no longer are. So it's not like every change just means you need to know more and more.
  741. # [23:59] <oojacoboo> liar
  742. # [23:59] <Dashiva> Considering the proliferation of javascript and libraries, more and more work can be done by third parties
  743. # Session Close: Tue Dec 21 00:00:00 2010

The end :)