/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 23 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> What's up with Wordpress replacing all hyphens with en dashes, when most hyphens are actually more correctly hyphens?
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  13. # [00:44] <gsnedders> It depends what you're writing, and upon style, etc. — in my case, most probably are en/em dashes.
  14. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> But it's better to leave things the way the user typed them than change them, if you have a substantial possibility of mis-changing them. Even if it's under 50%. Because if you leave it alone you've done nothing wrong, you just repeated what the user wrote. But if you change it incorrectly, you make it impossible for the user to write correctly.
  15. # [00:50] <gsnedders> Indeed. I'm absolutely against screwing stuff.
  16. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> Changing hyphens to en dashes really only makes sense if you use appropriately narrow heuristics.
  17. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> For instance, if the hyphen is both preceded and followed by a space, or if it's in between two digits.
  18. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Then it's almost certainly meant to be an en dash (I can't think of any legitimate hyphen use there).
  19. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> On a totally different note, searching for my name online gives almost exclusively computing-related things.
  20. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> This is sad, because it makes it look like I have no interests other than computers. When in fact, I just don't do them online much.
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  22. # [00:54] <gsnedders> The internet makes me look like a mixture of an emo and a computer geek.
  23. # [01:02] <MrOpposite> Good night
  24. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> Are you, in point of fact, a mixture of an emo and a computer geek?
  25. # [01:05] <gsnedders> No. I was never as emo as I overtly appeared, and nor am I solely a computer geek.
  26. # [01:06] <gsnedders> (And I certainly don't appear emo now)
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  28. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Huh. If I'm reading this correctly, then Lob's Theorem logically proves that the fact that logic works in the real world can't be proven logically. It has to be taken as an empirical fact discovered through induction.
  29. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> I guess that kills my "If anything, gods must be logically consistent" argument.
  30. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Yep.
  31. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Hm. I guess I already knew that, given the Boltzmann Brain argument.
  32. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> There are lots of theories of logic. Things like de Morgan's law or whatever aren't magically obvious, they just happen to be useful.
  33. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Same as all math.
  34. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> Besides, even if there were some logic that had reality beyond the empirical, maybe a god could trick you into being confused and thinking something is clearly a law of logic when it's not, or vice versa.
  35. # [01:18] <AryehGregor> Descartes-style.
  36. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> Damn you, Great Deceiver.
  37. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> He figures that at least you can reliably conclude that you must exist. But even stating the fact that you exist requires some level of reasoning or observation, so maybe you're confused about that too.
  38. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> So nothing's for sure.
  39. # [01:20] <AryehGregor> Even things like 1 + 1 = 2, and that's true by definition.
  40. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Right. We still have to prove by induction that it's a useful truth in the real world.
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  42. # [01:21] <AryehGregor> http://www.spaceandgames.com/?p=27
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  44. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> Also: http://lesswrong.com/lw/mo/infinite_certainty/
  45. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I buy into the bayesian conspiracy. I don't want to go to infinite hell.
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  47. # [01:35] <bga_> can i send file to user using `'Content-Disposition: attachment;` and send html page same time?
  48. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> In the page, use an iframe sending the attachment. That's the mechanism I'm familiar with, at least.
  49. # [01:36] <bga_> 2 requests :(
  50. # [01:36] <bga_> but ok
  51. # [01:37] <bga_> thanks
  52. # [01:38] <bga_> i`ll experimenting with multipart http
  53. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Argh, Chrome is so freaking retarded about cert errors: https://www.washingtonpost.com/
  54. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Sucks for washpo, I guess.
  55. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> It's revoked! Therefore it *must* be an evil attacker and you can have *no* possible reason for proceeding, so in fact we will not even give you an *option* to do so!
  56. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> Despite the fact that a) the overwhelming majority of revoked certificates are probably still being used legitimately, and b) it's a news site, I'm not going to give it my credit card info here.
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  58. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> I've been meaning to file a Chrome bug saying something like "TLS certificate error messages should not lie to the user".
  59. # [01:40] <Aleoss> Why doesn't <video> support flashvars?
  60. # [01:40] <Aleoss> Or is there another method of doing so?
  61. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> "flashvars"?
  62. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Because it's not flash.
  63. # [01:41] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: So you can't load a SWF into <video>?
  64. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: Not in any current browser, at least.
  65. # [01:41] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Do you know if this will ever change in the HTML5 spec at all?
  66. # [01:42] * ap_ is now known as ap
  67. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> HTML5 currently makes no recommendations about what <video> should accept at all, because browsers can't agree.
  68. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Once they do, it will match the agreement, but I *highly* doubt that browsers will agree on Flash as the common video format.
  69. # [01:42] <Rik`> swf is not a video format
  70. # [01:42] <Rik`> flv is
  71. # [01:42] <Aleoss> TabAtkins, but HTML5 sets the spec, browsers are updated to comply with it. If a browser doesn't understand what that element/attribute does, it skips past it.
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  74. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Browsers set the behavior, HTML5 is updated to match it.
  75. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> The spec follows the browsers, not the reverse.
  76. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: It's a 2-way relationship. The spec defined <video>, and browsers liked it so they implemented it. It also mandated Ogg, but not all browsers liked that, so they didn't. So, the spec was changed to no longer mandante Ogg.
  77. # [01:43] <Aleoss> AryehGregor: Oh? That sounds VERY backwards.
  78. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Except when the browsers like whatever the spec happens to say.
  79. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Specs that don't match reality are just very boring fiction.
  80. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> Aleoss, only if you view standards bodies as authorities that order everyone what to do. If you view them as places for implementers to collaborate, then it's not backwards at all.
  81. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Ideally, they should guide implementors to the same point. If it becomes obvious that implementors are going elsewhere, though, and they won't change, then the spec should change to point to the same place that implementors want to go.
  82. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> The WHATWG is just a forum for implementers to coordinate so that when they want to add features, they all agree on the syntax.
  83. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> So that the same page will work in all browsers that want to support that feature.
  84. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> As opposed to browsers making up things by themselves that will only ever work in that browser, or that other browsers have to waste time reverse-engineering.
  85. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Lots of people seem to be confused on this point, including lots of people who write standards.
  86. # [01:48] <bga_> fail http://www.mail-archive.com/www-talk@w3.org/msg00549.html
  87. # [01:48] <bga_> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en/iewebdevelopment/thread/9f22c93e-3b0e-4605-93b3-be254a9b95fe
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  114. # [03:03] <bga_> http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=5139b6ff0f51d781&hl=en&fid=5139b6ff0f51d781000497c13e706e22
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  140. # [04:44] <oojacoboo> anyone know how/what the wordpress admin modal box is using?
  141. # [04:45] <oojacoboo> the element doesn't appear to be in the DOM, right click is disabled when visible
  142. # [04:47] <oojacoboo> it's the alert box I am referring to
  143. # [04:48] <oojacoboo> maybe it's firefox's new default alert?
  144. # [04:48] <oojacoboo> it behaves like an OS element
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  149. # [05:16] <oojacoboo> looks like it is, which came with the new update today for the 4b8, nice improvement
  150. # [05:17] <oojacoboo> actually makes you not mind using the default UA alert option
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  212. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> is a scheme-less IRI reference allowed to contain quote characters?
  213. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> e.g., literal 'page4.html' or "page4.html" ?
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  253. # [13:38] <kling> reni: i'm dreaming.. of a whiiite.. christmas..
  254. # [13:40] <reni> kling: everything is dark here already :S
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  265. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: if/when you have time to try a few test cases, I made a patch for http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=689
  266. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> see my comment there
  267. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> it reports the name and line-column number of only the bottommost unclosed element, and reports it using an error-level message
  268. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> the current htmlparser code doesn't itself have a means for reporting info-level messages
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  270. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> so short of adding considerably more code for handling info-level messages, the only other alternative to reporting it as an error would be to make it a warning instead
  271. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, it is available now at http://www.w3.org/html/check for testing
  272. # [14:48] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: for <body>
  273. # [14:48] <zcorpan> <div><p></p>
  274. # [14:48] <zcorpan> </body> it highlights the <p>
  275. # [14:48] <zcorpan> shouldn't it highlight the <div>?
  276. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> lemme check
  277. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
  278. # [14:51] <MikeSmith> I'll need to fix that
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  292. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: fixed
  293. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I think
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  313. # [17:04] <gsnedders> Anyone here that knows about Gecko/WebKit behaviour with GC of NodeLists and Elements contained within them, and how setting properties affects them?
  314. # [17:04] * gsnedders tries to get to the point where he can ask a more specific question
  315. # [17:09] <gsnedders> (short version: Opera 11 eventually stops working with the collapsing/expanding of the menu on http://www.erlang.org/doc/ once we trigger a GC)
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  330. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Ooh, FF 4b8's alert box really *does* look nice.
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  333. # [18:24] <Rik`> TabAtkins: yes, almost makes alert() confirm() and prompt() usable again
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  339. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Ooh, it's now tab-modal.
  340. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Have they made HTTP auth tab-modal yet?
  341. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> (not that it would be useful even if they did, but it would at least be somewhat less horrible)
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  376. # [21:03] <karlcow> do we have a table which tests the behavior of browsers when cookies contain spaces in the value.
  377. # [21:03] <karlcow> Set-Cookie: foo bar;expires=Sat, 25-Dec-10 01:23:45 GMT;path=/
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  381. # [21:30] <karlcow> doh!
  382. # [21:31] <karlcow> I wonder if Webkit, Firefox do magic with
  383. # [21:31] <karlcow> nnCoection: Close
  384. # [21:31] <karlcow> HTTP header
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  422. # Session Close: Fri Dec 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)