/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> boxendirst, I don't work for Mozilla. I've got like two more or less trivial commits accepted by them, though. I also have a part-time contract to do spec work for Google over the next few months, which I'll probably start work on tomorrow.
  8. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Why did you suspect I worked for Mozilla?
  9. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> My comments about WebKit's and Gecko's HTML5 forms implementation would be rather poor taste if I worked for Mozilla, actually.
  10. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> I'd have been much more reserved in criticizing their competitors if I did work for them.
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  12. # [00:33] <annevk> congrats on the job thing AryehGregor
  13. # [00:33] <boxendirst> No offense AryehGregor.
  14. # [00:33] <boxendirst> And congrats from me as well
  15. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  16. # [00:33] <annevk> slowly all of #whatwg gets employed and we become the cabal we have been made out to be from the start
  17. # [00:34] <Dashiva> You mean we aren't already?
  18. # [00:34] <Dashiva> How many indepedent agents are left?
  19. # [00:34] <annevk> sssh
  20. # [00:34] <Hixie> define "independent"
  21. # [00:34] <Dashiva> Supposedly without ties to the cabal
  22. # [00:35] <Hixie> so anyone who joins this channel or posts to any mailing list related to web standards is no longer "independent"? :-)
  23. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> I always assumed that the independent people were part of the cabal too.
  24. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> I was called a WHATWG Goon before I was employed by anyone.
  25. # [00:36] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@32.138.128.116)
  26. # [00:36] <webr3> well sometimes the tone of emails etc from some whatwg members does lend to people thinking you are a cabal seeking to overthrow the w3c in some regards...
  27. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Seeking to overthrow the W3C, yes, possibly.
  28. # [00:36] <webr3> not saying that is the case, but it is how things come accross sometimes
  29. # [00:36] <Dashiva> It's possible to want to overthrow the w3c in a distributed, non-cabal way
  30. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> But that doesn't make us a cabal.
  31. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> I mean, cabals are supposed to be secret, aren't they?
  32. # [00:37] * Hixie doesn't care about the w3c per se, he just wants to improve the web in terms of interoperability and features
  33. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> I think I participated in a grand total of one secret WHATWG-related e-mail discussion ever.
  34. # [00:37] <abarth> you mean this channel isn't secret?
  35. # [00:37] <webr3> you can be secret and open at the same time, you just have private discussions people don't realize
  36. # [00:37] <Dashiva> Maybe there's a second, hidden cabal behind the visible cabal
  37. # [00:37] <Hixie> and the w3c sometimes gets in the way of that :-)
  38. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> And maybe like five or ten private IRC conversations.
  39. # [00:37] <Dashiva> Also, there's #whatwg-secret-treehouse-no-patents-allowed
  40. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so you want to improve the web, by means of overthrowing the W3C?
  41. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> And where I say "you" I mean "we", because you are the cabal leader and we all believe everything you say.
  42. # [00:38] * Joins: paul_irish_ (~paul_iris@32.167.146.64)
  43. # [00:38] <webr3> lol, it would be nice to see more hand-holding and good feeling between w3c and whatwg in 2011, both contains great people with good intentions (and obviously the same people in both often)
  44. # [00:39] <webr3> sure would make life for some easier..
  45. # [00:39] * webr3 could be wrong, but hope I'm not
  46. # [00:39] <Dashiva> Eh
  47. # [00:39] <annevk> abarth, with questions like that you're not inspiring confidence as security expert ;p
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  49. # [00:39] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i want to improve the web, the w3c isn't really relevant one way or the other to me
  50. # [00:39] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  51. # [00:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: they can either take part, or get out of the way
  52. # [00:40] <Hixie> i don't much care either way
  53. # [00:40] <Dashiva> I'm sure X (for X in everyone) would love for everyone else to suddenly drop all their convictions and agree with X
  54. # [00:40] <webr3> Hixie, I've got to ask why you don't care, out of interest
  55. # [00:41] <Hixie> webr3: same reason i don't care about, i dunno, carl jr's.
  56. # [00:41] <Hixie> webr3: why would i?
  57. # [00:41] <Hixie> Dashiva: i'd rather people used rational thought and research to form their own opinions rather than have any convictions or agree with anything unquestioningly
  58. # [00:42] <Dashiva> Hixie: Are you saying there are people who do not consider themselves rational involved?
  59. # [00:43] <webr3> Hixie, working with, rather than for, or against, seems to make more sense to me - that's ultimately why I'd care - there are a lot of clever people w/ good intentions @ the w3c (and many other groups) and I respect that
  60. # [00:44] <Hixie> Dashiva: there are numerous people in the standards world who think that they should be trusted and that their word should not be tested
  61. # [00:44] <annevk> webr3, you make it sound like us vs them
  62. # [00:44] <annevk> webr3, many of the WHATWG are quite active in the W3C
  63. # [00:44] <webr3> annevk, i don't intend to at all :)
  64. # [00:44] <Dashiva> But surely they consider themselves and their communication to be fully rational
  65. # [00:45] <annevk> but I think many share the sentiment that is not really about any particular organization, but more about the end goal of having great web standards
  66. # [00:46] <Hixie> webr3: i'm happy to work with anyone who wants to make the web better
  67. # [00:47] <Hixie> Dashiva: i can't speak as to their own beliefs of their communications, only about what they say, and there are numerous people who have stated that their opinions should be taken on face value without any rationale or evidence to support their statements
  68. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> There are also simple differences of opinion even among rational people that are unduly tedious to resolve in the W3C.
  69. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> At least in the HTMLWG.
  70. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> I've remarked before on the fact that the other WGs I've been part of (admittedly, that's pretty much only CSSWG) aren't nearly as bureaucratic.
  71. # [00:49] <Hixie> the csswg isn't as bureaucratic as the htmlwg, but it's also much slower at making progress in practice
  72. # [00:49] <Hixie> (i speak as someone who has edited more documents in the csswg than the htmlwg, and has spent as much time in both by now, if not more in the csswg)
  73. # [00:50] <webr3> Hixie, likewise, that's the caveat I have too - anybody who wants to make the web work better
  74. # [00:50] * webr3 would be interested to know who doesn't though!
  75. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> It seems to me that the CSSWG suffers from lack of aggressive editors who make it their responsibility to resolve issues in a fixed timeframe.
  76. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> They often have protracted discussions that die out with no conclusion.
  77. # [00:52] <Dashiva> It's not ridiculous enough that it can be bypassed as irrelevant, but not efficient enough for optimal performance? :)
  78. # [00:52] <webr3> AryehGregor, tbh i think a lot of specs involve over work of the editors, and this is a key problem often, would be good to see more "i need some helps" and more peopel willing to co-edit, share the workload
  79. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> That's probably true. Hixie appears to be practically unique in actually finding spec editing fun. How many other people are paid to be full-time spec editors, actually?
  80. # [00:53] <webr3> no where near enough - that runs to problems at the core of the web & "open" communities though, everything from economic structure through to mentallity needs to change in many areas
  81. # [00:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, one of the big problems in a lot of wgs at the w3c is that there's no one person who "owns" the responsibility for a decision, and so you get situations where nobody feels responsible to get the best result
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  85. # [01:00] <webr3> would be good if that responsibility could be assigned to a 2 or three specialist, like a quick response per-issue-group w/ a 2 week timeline or suchlike
  86. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> One person is best, no more.
  87. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> That way no one can push it off onto anyone else.
  88. # [01:04] <Hixie> yeah responsibility can never be shared
  89. # [01:04] <Hixie> you always need a single point of blame
  90. # [01:04] <Hixie> that's the only way you get people motivated to not screw up
  91. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> Having multiple people just means no one can do anything officially except if they have a conference about that specific issue.
  92. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> Which is much more cumbersome.
  93. # [01:04] <Hixie> yeah
  94. # [01:05] <Hixie> it also means that if there's a mistake, the blame gets shared and somehow everyone always justifies it to themselves as it being the other people's fault
  95. # [01:06] <annevk> blame game doesn't work though
  96. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> It works nicely if it's clear who to blame.
  97. # [01:06] <annevk> at least, employers might place blame, but nobody else really can
  98. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> It's only bad if it's not clear who to blame, then no one winds up taking it.
  99. # [01:07] <annevk> as it basically comes down to community service
  100. # [01:07] <annevk> e.g. you can point out a bug in XMLHttpRequest and I can decide not to care for now
  101. # [01:07] <annevk> you can blame me, but nothing will happen
  102. # [01:08] <Hixie> it's not about other people blaming you
  103. # [01:08] <Hixie> it's about you blaming you
  104. # [01:08] <Hixie> naturally if you don't care, it doesn't help
  105. # [01:08] <Hixie> but if someone doesn't care, they're not gonna do a good job regardless
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  107. # [01:09] <webr3> so then, what if there was a process where people could opt-in to resolving the issues under and action (even from outside the relevent groups) and resolve the issues quickly + take the blame as it were?
  108. # [01:09] <annevk> the other thing is that getting help is unlikely
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  110. # [01:09] <webr3> afaik the w3c is opening up to make it easier for people from different groups to contrib to any other group
  111. # [01:09] <annevk> I have requested help on several topics quite a few times and nothing ever comes of that
  112. # [01:10] <webr3> maybe the wrong channels are being asked in, or maybe people think "that doesn't mean me" (even thought they want to)
  113. # [01:10] <annevk> you have to do things yourself if you want to get things done on certain topics
  114. # [01:10] * webr3 knows for a fact it's the second case often
  115. # [01:10] <annevk> for HTML5 the dynamics might be somewhat different though -- at least people seem to write change proposals and such
  116. # [01:11] <annevk> webr3, it's hard to tell
  117. # [01:12] <Hixie> webr3: what kinds of issues do you have in mind for "a process where people could opt-in to resolving the issues under and action"?
  118. # [01:12] <webr3> any long standing issue that can't be resolved quickly and to which there isn't an obvious solution
  119. # [01:13] <Hixie> like what?
  120. # [01:13] <annevk> defining a P2P UDP-like protocol
  121. # [01:13] <annevk> would be one I'd like to see
  122. # [01:13] <Hixie> isn't that one pretty much under control?
  123. # [01:13] <annevk> oh, and UDP Web Sockets
  124. # [01:14] <annevk> is it?
  125. # [01:14] <Hixie> rtc-web seems to be making progress
  126. # [01:14] <webr3> html5 spec being in html5, the whole prefixes thing, the dual mit/licensing, updating of the specs regularly on w3c, literally anything that just needs somebody to work on it
  127. # [01:14] <webr3> can't understand why a list isn't just published saying "we need these things worked on" by anybody, that means you, if you'd like the job just say
  128. # [01:14] <Hixie> webr3: the html5 spec being in html5 isn't something that anyone could resolve -- the problem is that the w3c staff have set a rule and that they won't change it
  129. # [01:14] <annevk> TIL about http://rtc-web.alvestrand.com/
  130. # [01:14] <Hixie> webr3: how could anyone resolve that?
  131. # [01:15] <Hixie> webr3: i mean, the spec is written in html5, i literally run a script to remove the html5ness and backport it to html4 before publishing on the w3c site
  132. # [01:15] <Hixie> the whatwg one is html5
  133. # [01:15] <annevk> oh wait, I heard about that workshop
  134. # [01:15] <annevk> Philip wasn't too enthusiastic
  135. # [01:16] <Hixie> webr3: and the whole prefixes thing is already resolved, as far as i can tell, except that some people disagree... so how could anyone "resolve" that?
  136. # [01:16] <webr3> well imho it should be in html5, it's /not/ a standard yet so doesn't matter if it's not in the current standard of html, and when it is a standard, it will eb the standard and people will expect it to be in html5, as a demo reference even
  137. # [01:16] <Hixie> webr3: and the licensing thing, again, is w3c staff saying "no", it's not something anyone could just solve (the whatwg spec is already licensed under a free license)
  138. # [01:17] <webr3> are there reasons for the "no" that are valid?
  139. # [01:17] <webr3> if not, then that "no" should be raised as an issue
  140. # [01:17] <Hixie> not to my knowledge, but i'm sure the people saying "no" think there are
  141. # [01:17] <Hixie> but in short, i don't see how "a process where people could opt-in to resolving the issues under and action" would resolve any of these issues
  142. # [01:18] <webr3> well it would if the w3c staff agreed to the process and backed it...
  143. # [01:19] <Hixie> given a situation where the w3c doesn't want something to happen (e.g. publishing the html5 spec as contemporary html rather than html4), i don't see how to convince the w3c to form a process by which they could have their authority overriden
  144. # [01:21] <webr3> it's a standardization body which standardizes approaches when there are conflicting implementations, w3c is just an implementation of a standardization body, and if there are conflicts then they should be standardized, not just say this ones right and that ones wrong
  145. # [01:21] <webr3> that includes the w3c itself
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  147. # [01:22] <webr3> if people on the web can't say "no, thats wrong, you need to look again" and be taken seriously, then they're doing the job wrong, and that needs addressed
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  149. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> webr3, all the things you mentioned are just points of disagreement between the W3C and WHATWG. They're matters of opinion, they're unlikely to change.
  150. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> It's not a procedural issue. Process can't eliminate differences of opinion, only rule in favor of one side or the other.
  151. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Which is what has happened, except that there are two different organizations (because of bad decisions made by the W3C that triggered a breakaway) and they resolved some of these issues different ways.
  152. # [01:25] <webr3> well somebodies got to be thinking positively and that the disagreements can be resolved :)
  153. # [01:25] <webr3> so resolve all the difference and join back up..
  154. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Are you advocating the position that if everyone just thought positively and talked it out, they'd all come to agreement on every issue?
  155. # [01:26] <webr3> not everyone, but the majority of free thinking individuals would - why not..
  156. # [01:26] <annevk> ever heard of politics?
  157. # [01:26] <webr3> i mean they all essentially want the same thing, lest they're in a cabal
  158. # [01:26] <Hixie> we have "joined back up"
  159. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Because that seems like it's pretty obviously not how the real world works. Differences of opinion are commonly intractable. The best you can hope for is to pick someone's opinion to go with according to some process that hopefully doesn't leave too many people entirely dissatisfied.
  160. # [01:26] <Hixie> all the issues you raised are issues in the htmlwg, not issues between the whatwg and the htmlwg
  161. # [01:27] <Hixie> they're purely w3c-internal issues
  162. # [01:27] <webr3> annevk, i have, but I don't believe in politics, don't care for them, and it does nobody any good at all - screw the politics
  163. # [01:27] <annevk> standards is often politics
  164. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> webr3, politics demonstrates that intelligent people will not come to agreement on important issues even after extensive discussion.
  165. # [01:27] <annevk> at least in my experience
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  167. # [01:40] <karlcow> when you edit and you ask for help, there is the way you ask and/or structure the help. If you tell people can you edit this section. That doesn't work. If you say can you edit this section following this model it is a bit better. Still need a bit of seduction :p
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  169. # [01:42] <karlcow> a bit of politics, a bit of drama queen, a bit of bad memories, a bit of dick contest, a bit of technical sound argument, etc. :) Standards are made of flesh, sweat and thoughts.
  170. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Is the disabled attribute for <option> a new HTML5 feature?
  171. # [01:43] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  172. # [01:43] <Hixie> no
  173. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> Why does Chrome seem to ignore it while Firefox 4 and Opera 11 don't, then?
  174. # [01:45] <Hixie> bug, i guess
  175. # [01:45] <Hixie> what does webkit/safari do?
  176. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> Well, the UI lets you select it just like any other option.
  177. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> Didn't test submitting.
  178. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><select><option disabled>A</option><option>B</option></select>
  179. # [01:45] <AryehGregor> In Firefox/Opera, A is grayed out and unselectable, and B is selected by default.
  180. # [01:45] <Hixie> oh that's a more subtle issue than whether it works or not
  181. # [01:46] <Hixie> html4 (as usual) was very vague about what should happen if the first option was disabled, iirc
  182. # [01:46] <Hixie> anyway the new html spec defines all that
  183. # [01:46] * AryehGregor discovers <optgroup label="">
  184. # [01:47] * AryehGregor guesses he never actually looked into any of this before
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  187. # [02:13] <annevk> karlcow, politics includes all of those :) well, maybe except technical arguments :p
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  189. # [02:14] <karlcow> ;)
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  199. # [02:51] <Dashiva> Damn you, semantics
  200. # [02:51] * abarth is now known as semantics
  201. # [02:51] <semantics> Damn you, Dashiva
  202. # [02:52] <Dashiva> no u
  203. # [02:52] <Hixie> hey now
  204. # [02:52] <Hixie> no spelling "you" as "u"
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  207. # [02:56] <Dashiva> It's an idiom
  208. # [02:56] <Dashiva> Thus the lowercase 'n' as well
  209. # [02:57] * semantics is now known as abarth
  210. # [02:57] <Dashiva> "A little confusingly, that text is marked up with HTML, which is very similar to XML. XML and HTML are basically brothers, they’re based on the same older work (SGML), except that XML is like the Borg and tried to assimilate HTML in the early ’00s (XHTML) and then the Federation (web nerds) realized that was a crappy idea and set off at maximum warp (let’s go build some awesome things
  211. # [02:57] <Dashiva> and let the documentation catch up later) in a different direction (HTML5) and soon it’ll be holodecks for everybody (canvas, video, audio tags) and fire photon torpedoes at the Ferengi (Flash). Exactly like that."
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  218. # [03:20] <boxendirst> Nice, Dashiva
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  228. # [05:37] <oojacoboo> wow, I have chrome showing the browser behind it through certain sections on the page that are flash (I think flash)
  229. # [05:38] <oojacoboo> so, it's like the flash elements are making the browser window see through
  230. # [05:38] <oojacoboo> the weird thing is, scrolling scrolls the browser behind it too...
  231. # [05:40] <heycam> oojacoboo, a recent firefox?
  232. # [05:41] <oojacoboo> the browser behind is the latest beta
  233. # [05:41] <oojacoboo> of firefox, yes
  234. # [05:41] <heycam> oojacoboo, it's probably https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590568
  235. # [05:42] <oojacoboo> well, it's happening in Chrome
  236. # [05:42] <oojacoboo> not firefox
  237. # [05:43] <oojacoboo> infact, it will show anything through it, entirely transparent in sections of the browser which are flash
  238. # [05:43] <heycam> happens in chrome and firefox?
  239. # [05:43] <heycam> (or i misinterpreted the "of firefox, yes")
  240. # [05:43] <oojacoboo> only in chrome for me
  241. # [05:43] <heycam> ok
  242. # [05:43] <heycam> then I don't know anything about it :)
  243. # [05:44] <oojacoboo> yea, I think it's flash crashed or something and it just doesn't know what to render in it's place
  244. # [05:44] <oojacoboo> somehow the default didn't get loaded up or something
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  254. # [08:04] <Hixie> is there any sort of pass-by-reference in js?
  255. # [08:04] <Hixie> i have three variables that i need to pass to a function for the function to update all three variables
  256. # [08:05] <Hixie> (but which three variables need changing depends on the call site)
  257. # [08:05] <heycam> Hixie, best you'll get is to pass in an object for the function to set properties on
  258. # [08:05] <Hixie> bummer
  259. # [08:05] <Hixie> oh well
  260. # [08:05] <Hixie> thanks
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  276. # [10:07] <Hixie> hm
  277. # [10:08] <Hixie> i just noticed that <canvas> acts as a phrasing element in the parser, which means you can't put e.g. paragraphs inside it
  278. # [10:08] <Hixie> that's problematic
  279. # [10:09] <Hixie> (for accessibilty, i mean)
  280. # [10:11] <Hixie> i guess we could make canvas scoping
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  331. # [14:48] <annevk> Dashiva, where is that Star Trek quote from?
  332. # [14:49] <Dashiva> http://push.cx/2010/xml-crash-course
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  335. # [14:53] <annevk> sweet
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  363. # [16:26] <gsnedders> Time to do some html5lib hacking
  364. # [16:26] <gsnedders> (Why do I seem to do this on long-distance buses in Sweden?)
  365. # [16:27] <Philip`> (Because short-distance buses don't give you enough time to hack?)
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  367. # [16:28] <gsnedders> (No, because most other long-distance buses spend too much time off motorways and hence hacking would make me sick)
  368. # [16:29] <gsnedders> (And short-distance buses have the same issue)
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  371. # [16:33] <annevk> back in Sweden?
  372. # [16:40] <gsnedders> annevk: I'm here over New Year
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  382. # [17:29] * gsnedders is getting close to having a consistent, namespace aware, API for attributes in treewalkers in html5lib
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  385. # [17:34] <gsnedders> And then I guess we need to get foreign content working in the serializer
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  415. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> You know, the possibility of encoding something in UTF-8 with more bytes than necessary never even occurred to me.
  416. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Like encoding null as 0xc0 0x80 or 0xf0 x080 0x80 0x80 or whatever.
  417. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> I guess this sort of crazy thing lets you easily distinguish random byte strings from UTF-8, though, so it's good.
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  420. # [19:30] <gsnedders> Anything but shortest form is invalid, though
  421. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Yeah, apparently.
  422. # [19:31] <annevk> gets FFFD
  423. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Now, why is it that Linux SIGKILLs processes when it runs out of memory and every other OS apparently just starts failing allocations?
  424. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> I mean, I know why Linux does it. It's so that it can overallocate memory on the theory it won't be used.
  425. # [19:32] <Philip`> Failing allocations sounds bad for security, since most programmers don't bother checking return values
  426. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> But I wonder why other OSes don't follow that logic too. Or if there are drawbacks, why isn't Linux ever normally configured to fail allocations?
  427. # [19:33] <Philip`> and it probably means all your applications will fail and crash at once, rather than the OS just killing one
  428. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's what I've always thought.
  429. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> It seems like it's much simpler to just pick one thing to kill and let everyone else continue on happily, especially since it's usually one process that's hogging the memory, often in a rampant memory leak or such.
  430. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> Although it would be nice if it would send a catchable signal first, maybe, so the process had a second or two to reduce memory usage before being killed.
  431. # [19:34] <Philip`> Maybe other OSes were designed by people with the naive idea that application programmers will design their code to respond gracefully when any one of their millions of lines of code that allocate memory fails
  432. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> But why has no one caught on to Linux's brilliance in this regard yet?
  433. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> Actually, I think that when Windows runs low on memory, it just starts extending the swap file on the fly.
  434. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> That's kind of crazy, though.
  435. # [19:37] <Philip`> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Infallible_memory_allocation - it looks like Mozilla originally tried to handle allocation failures but is now giving up and declaring that they'll never fail
  436. # [19:37] <AryehGregor> So basically just adopting Linux behavior on all platforms.
  437. # [19:39] <Philip`> We ought to get hot-pluggable RAM and then the OS can freeze and pop up an error message saying "out of memory, please insert more RAM! (c)ontinue, (a)bort"
  438. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> Linux has some notion of hot-swapping RAM. But I think it only actually works for VMs, not physical hardware.
  439. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> I think it does theoretically support CPU hot-swapping. I've always wanted to see if that works on x86.
  440. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> Because that would be so cool.
  441. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> (clearly, you need at least two CPU sockets for this to be practical)
  442. # [19:42] <Philip`> I'd think it's incredibly unlikely that the hardware will support that instead of e.g. blowing up when you've only got half the pins in
  443. # [19:43] <Philip`> (when it's x86, not some clever expensive mainframe type thing)
  444. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> Well, SATA supports hot-swapping, I've done that all the time.
  445. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> I've installed a new disk and moved my root filesystem to it while my machine is running, more than once.
  446. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> So I don't see why CPUs couldn't support hot-swap too. Although you're right that they probably don't.
  447. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> I'd have to try it on a multi-socket machine that still works but that's being thrown out or something, I guess.
  448. # [19:46] <Philip`> I agree they could be designed to support it (and I'm sure I've heard of some that are), but normal x86 CPUs aren't (since it's not a feature anybody will ever use)
  449. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> http://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cpu-hotplug.txt
  450. # [19:47] <Philip`> Even the physical design probably makes it impossible - you usually have to pull off the fan and heatsink before removing/inserting the CPU from the socket, and the CPU will melt itself while you're doing that
  451. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> "CONFIG_ACPI_HOTPLUG_CPU enables ACPI support for physical add/remove of CPUs."
  452. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  453. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> ACPI makes it sound like x86.
  454. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Philip`, not if the kernel can tell the hardware to power down the CPU first.
  455. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Clearly you have to tell the kernel before you try to remove the CPU, otherwise the kernel state on that CPU will be lost and it will have to panic.
  456. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> I guess ACPI is used by IA64 too.
  457. # [19:51] <Philip`> http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/CPUHotPlug - "There are very few physical machines that actually support it. (Only one unisys box I know of),"
  458. # [19:51] <AryehGregor> :(
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  465. # [20:15] <Dashiva> Dear lazy IRC, how can I make firefox open new tabs instead of new windows from window.open?
  466. # [20:15] <Dashiva> "Open new windows in a new tab" seems to have no effect
  467. # [20:18] <bga_> gt#firefox
  468. # [20:18] <bga_> :)
  469. # [20:18] <Dashiva> See, that would be work, which is what lazy IRC is supposed to avoid
  470. # [20:19] <annevk> 1. download Opera. 2. ... 3. profit!
  471. # [20:19] <bga_> ++
  472. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> -- :)
  473. # [20:19] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  474. # [20:20] <bga_> = +Infinity :P
  475. # [20:22] <Dashiva> annevk: I downloaded Opera years ago, and firefox still doesn't open tabs instead of windows
  476. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Dashiva, seems like it should work
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  493. # [21:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: long-form UTF-8 were a sneaky security problem back before people had really realised the risk
  494. # [21:18] <Hixie> you could smuggle in ASCII characters without people noticing because they were doing byte filtering, not supporting UTF-8 in their filter
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  498. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> So now they aren't interpreted as ASCII characters, is the point.
  499. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> By the way, here's a first pass at an atob() spec. Comments appreciated, both as to accuracy and the style of the prose (the actual formatting is obviously going to match whatever spec it's put in): http://aryeh.name/tmp/spec.html
  500. # [21:21] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  501. # [21:28] <Hixie> s/ul/ol/, s/has code point/have code points/, s/255/U+00FF/
  502. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> I prefer ul, since I don't actually refer to the numbers anywhere.
  503. # [21:29] <Hixie> at "treat the three-character string pointed to by /position/" you may not in fact have a three character string
  504. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that wording is messy.
  505. # [21:29] <Hixie> ul means the order doesn't matter, which isn't the case :-)
  506. # [21:30] <Dashiva> ol styled to use disc?
  507. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> That's an excessively dogmatic way of interpreting the semantics.
  508. # [21:30] <Hixie> that's not "excessively dogmatic", it's exactly what the spec says :-)
  509. # [21:30] <Hixie> that's the difference between ul and ol
  510. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> I know, I think the spec is excessively dogmatic on these points. :)
  511. # [21:30] <Hixie> ul = unordered, ol = ordered
  512. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> When it comes to something like the distinction between ul and ol, you want to ask "How do you want browsers, screen readers, non-CSS text browsers, etc. to render it?", not get into hypothetical semantics.
  513. # [21:31] <Hixie> anyway, continuing with my review :-), i recommend finding another way of phrasing 4.2 so that you don't need the phrase "and so on"
  514. # [21:31] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.199.56) (Quit: .)
  515. # [21:32] <Hixie> also 4.2 confuses characters and bytes
  516. # [21:32] <Hixie> U+0000 is not a null byte, it's a Unicode character NULL with codepoint U+0000
  517. # [21:32] <gsnedders> So… I'm wondering what to do with the html5lib serializer test data… should I change it to match the treewalker changes in Python? It doesn't really work with namespaces as it is now…
  518. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I've been working with C too much lately. :P
  519. # [21:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: See above. (Or ping me when you're around)
  520. # [21:33] <jcranmer> Hixie: I would disagree with you
  521. # [21:33] <jcranmer> s/has code point/has a code point/
  522. # [21:34] <Hixie> AryehGregor: not really sure what a better way of phrasing 4.2 is, off-hand... probably it just needs to be made more explicit
  523. # [21:34] <Hixie> AryehGregor: spec-writing 101: your goal is to write text that no hostile implementor can argue (even in bad faith) means something other than what you intended
  524. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> I agree, but I'm thinking there's a more creative (i.e., less horrible) way to do it.
  525. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Actually, I wonder why we don't just spec things like this as working JavaScript programs.
  526. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Has that ever been contemplated?
  527. # [21:35] <Hixie> AryehGregor: so things like "and so on" are dodgy because it's easy for people to argue that the expansion of the pattern is something other than you intended
  528. # [21:35] <jcranmer> I wonder if you can spec it without being so detailed in the algorithm
  529. # [21:36] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the problem with speccing as code is that you have to include the definitions of _everything_ you use. for example, consider a spec that said:
  530. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> That's what I was thinking. Breaking up three bytes into four six-bit chunks is kind of dead simple.
  531. # [21:36] <jcranmer> basically, convert the input string to a series of octets in ISO 8859-1 standard (throwing an error if a character exists outside that range)
  532. # [21:36] <jcranmer> and then return the base64 encoding of that set of octets, as according to [base64]
  533. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> That's not correct, though.
  534. # [21:37] <Hixie> AryehGregor: "this function must return the equivalent of function foo(a) { Math.sin(a) }"
  535. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> It's done by Unicode characters, not ISO 8859-1.
  536. # [21:37] <jcranmer> whatever the charset is that is most translatable to UTF from x00 to xFF
  537. # [21:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: Probably bad example, seeming Math.sin is implementation defined approximation of sin
  538. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Also, what Base64 standard to use? There are apparently various convention.
  539. # [21:37] <jcranmer> the RFC base64
  540. # [21:37] <Hixie> AryehGregor: an implementor would then have to decide what to do if the function was invoked in a context where Math was rebound to something different entirely by some JS code
  541. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> conventions.
  542. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Ouch. I forgot how evil JavaScript is.
  543. # [21:38] <gsnedders> (except for a number of ±0, AFAIK)
  544. # [21:38] <Hixie> AryehGregor: anyway, long story short, using english ends up being less ambiguous
  545. # [21:38] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: That's not very evil at all.
  546. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Surely that much you could define away, though.
  547. # [21:38] <jcranmer> AryehGregor: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4648#section-4
  548. # [21:39] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the question is how much more prose is it to define it all away than it is to just use english in the first place :-)
  549. # [21:39] <Hixie> AryehGregor: and whether it ends up actually helping
  550. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> You can reuse the same prose definitions to clarify all your code definitions.
  551. # [21:39] * Joins: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k602.webspeed.dk)
  552. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> So it's amortized.
  553. # [21:39] <Hixie> AryehGregor: treating the reader as someone who is going to intentionally try to misinterpret what you have written is a good way of making sure you are unambiguous
  554. # [21:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well, if you can find a way to make it work, go for it :-)
  555. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie, only problem is that when you're used to that, CSS specs are unreadable
  556. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it's also a good way of inflicting suffering on the large majority of your readers who are not in fact malicious. :)
  557. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's also a problem. All specs not written by Hixie or someone following his style are now infuriatingly vague.
  558. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> But such is the price of progress.
  559. # [21:41] <jcranmer> unfortunately, you start to lose sight of what things actually means
  560. # [21:41] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yeah, well, that's a real problem regardless.
  561. # [21:41] <Hixie> Ms2ger: and i say that as someone who used to write css specs :-)
  562. # [21:41] <jcranmer> base64 is much more easily understood if you think of it has merely reencoding it as 6-bit bytes intead of 8-bit ones
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  564. # [21:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, you have to try to find a way to keep things readable at the same time, that's why spec writing isn't easy :-)
  565. # [21:42] <Hixie> gotta go get lunch ready, bbiab
  566. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Okay, how about this new text: http://aryeh.name/tmp/spec.html
  567. # [21:43] * AryehGregor clarifies the wording slightly to be pedantic
  568. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> There, clarified a bit.
  569. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Actually, I'll just quote it: "If the input string contains any character whose code point is strictly greater than U+00FF, throw an INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR exception. Otherwise, convert it to a binary string whose nth byte is the eight-bit code point of the nth byte of the input string, apply the base64 algorithm to that binary string, and return the result."
  570. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> jcranmer++
  571. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Er.
  572. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> That last "byte" should be "character", of course.
  573. # [21:44] * AryehGregor gets back to writing tests
  574. # [21:45] <gsnedders> What's the eight-bit code point of U+FFFF?
  575. # [21:45] <jcranmer> gsnedders: thats an invalid character
  576. # [21:45] <gsnedders> Oh, duh
  577. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, it's already thrown an exception by that point.
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  579. # [21:46] <jcranmer> I would s/byte/octet/g personally
  580. # [21:46] <gsnedders> "whose nth byte has the value of the nth character's code point"?
  581. # [21:46] <gsnedders> That's be clearer to me
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  583. # [21:47] <jcranmer> unless something somewhere states that bytes are 8-bit value chunks
  584. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Does anyone use "byte" to mean anything different these days?
  585. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> But okay, why not.
  586. # [21:49] <gsnedders> Hey, I implemented UTF-9!
  587. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> My condolences
  588. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> .
  589. # [21:49] <gsnedders> I did it for the hell of it ;P
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  591. # [21:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: looks good.
  592. # [21:51] <jcranmer> I came close to implementing UTF-7 once
  593. # [21:51] <jcranmer> stupid @#$@#$ing IMAP
  594. # [21:52] <gsnedders> UTF-7 didn't have the fun of UTF-9 to implement. People actually use it.
  595. # [21:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you're missing a "must" somewhere in there actually
  596. # [21:53] <Hixie> s/throw/the user agent must throw/ and s/convert/user agent must convert/
  597. # [21:53] <jcranmer> Hixie: don't you mean MUST? ;-)
  598. # [21:53] <Hixie> no
  599. # [21:53] <jcranmer> gsnedders: which is why it's so freakishly annoying
  600. # [21:53] <Hixie> i'm assuming whatever spec AryehGregor's text eventually ends up in will have http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#conformance-requirements as its conformance section
  601. # [21:54] <jcranmer> I tend to prefer to capitalize the keywords just to make it clear
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  603. # [21:54] <jcranmer> especially with the most annoying phrase in the world, "may not"
  604. # [21:54] <Hixie> i just don't use "may not"
  605. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> jcranmer, that's not defined by rfc 2119, don't use it
  606. # [21:55] <jcranmer> I use the term "might not" as much as possible
  607. # [21:55] <gsnedders> I might not use it much…
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  609. # [21:56] <Hixie> jcranmer: (i once tried to make every MUST in the html spec be uppercase, and then tried small-caps, and in both cases the spec was completely unreadable as a result.)
  610. # [21:56] <jcranmer> perhaps I just don't use MUST enough
  611. # [21:58] <gsnedders> I should use "MUST" more.
  612. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, no, you must.
  613. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> No, he SHOULD use "MUST" more.
  614. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> But MAY wish not to.
  615. # [22:02] <Hixie> he MAY wish anything he wants :-P
  616. # [22:02] <jcranmer> it is RECOMMENDED that he do it, though
  617. # [22:03] <gsnedders> I want a unicorn jumping over a double rainbow!
  618. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> You MAY.
  619. # [22:03] <Hixie> hmm, RECOMMENDED. I should go through the spec and make sure I'm not abusing that.
  620. # [22:03] <Hixie> it's like SHOULD, right?
  621. # [22:03] <gsnedders> Right.
  622. # [22:04] <Hixie> a quick glance seems to indicate it's used somewhat appropriately
  623. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> "In this example a recommended retail price has been marked"? :)
  624. # [22:05] <Hixie> that's in a non-normative section
  625. # [22:05] <Hixie> i'm not gonna worry about RECOMMENDED in examples and such
  626. # [22:05] <Hixie> notes, yes
  627. # [22:05] <Hixie> but not examples
  628. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Okay, does anyone else have more tests to suggest here? I'm finding it hard to be creative. http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/submission/AryehGregor/base64.html
  629. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Oh, hmm, Firefox fails some.
  630. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> As does Opera.
  631. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> Yay, I found some more incompatibilities. Now I get to decide which to spec.
  632. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> Firefox just fails the assert_throws ones over here, which isn't related
  633. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> Can anyone help me decipher the Firefox error message? Maybe jgraham? "assert_throws: function () { btoa(input); } threw with code INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5) expected INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5)"
  634. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> That doesn't seem to make sense.
  635. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> It checks e.name
  636. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, the last two are supposed to throw too.
  637. # [22:09] <Ms2ger> Which has NS_ERROR_DOM up front
  638. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, they aren't.
  639. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> Wait a sec, encoding issue with the last one.
  640. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Okay, so the Firefox failures are a problem with the test harness and not me?
  641. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> I guess Opera is copying IE here. I'll try to figure out what they do.
  642. # [22:10] * Quits: ap (~ap@c-98-234-68-254.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ap)
  643. # [22:11] <Ms2ger> It's an irrelevant bug in Firefox
  644. # [22:11] <jcranmer> AryehGregor: I might suggest trying the tests with a charset that has codepoints > U+00FF
  645. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, what do you mean?
  646. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, oh, okay.
  647. # [22:11] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: We don't seem to have many bugs on it, at least — pretty much only not throwing
  648. # [22:12] <jcranmer> AryehGregor: if they're doing page-specific encoding
  649. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> Well, I'd hope there couldn't be *too* many bugs in a base64 function.
  650. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, oh, so like seeing if the function's behavior depends on the encoding of the page? Interesting thought.
  651. # [22:12] <jcranmer> right
  652. # [22:13] <jcranmer> that's about the only non-obvious error I can think of
  653. # [22:18] * Ms2ger wonders why DOM2Range handles cases where doctypes have children
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  655. # [22:23] <Hixie> AryehGregor: one thing to test is outputs for inputs of various lengths to make sure the trailing =s are done right
  656. # [22:24] <Hixie> also, check astral plane characters, while you're at it -- there might be some weird UTF-16/surrogate issues
  657. # [22:27] <jcranmer> oh yeah, anything not in the BMP is liable to get wonky
  658. # [22:27] <jcranmer> forgot about that
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  676. # [23:41] * sroussey_ is now known as sroussey
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  719. # Session Close: Mon Jan 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)