/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-06 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Jan 06 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:28] <_bga> http://visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html
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# [00:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I remember now that the reason I implemented the unclosed-element reporting using additional lists instead of just putting the locators on the stack nodes
# [00:35] <MikeSmith> the reason was, to have a way to essentially keep state about which unclosed elements had already been reported
# [00:36] <MikeSmith> because without that, many or most unclosed element instances cause duplicate error messages to be emitted
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# [00:47] <benschwarz> Hixie: Roger.
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# [01:00] <Evet> is it possible to build RIAs for ie 5.5+?
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# [01:10] <_bga> Evet its hell but yes, its possible
# [01:10] <_bga> you will have tons of fallbacks and workarounds
# [01:11] <_bga> ie5.5 hasnt even Function#apply
# [01:12] <hober> hsivonen: just got an Internal Error on validator.nu
# [01:12] <Rik`> why build for ie 5.5 ? it's dead nowadays
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# [01:12] <hober> hsivonen: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fspaceup.org%2Fsandiego%2Fsponsors%2F
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# [01:14] <Evet> there must be some people using ie 5.5
# [01:15] <Rik`> Evet: yes but there are also some people using lynx or netscape 3
# [01:15] * _bga <3 console browsers
# [01:16] <Evet> shouldnt i consider ie 5.5 users?
# [01:16] <Rik`> Evet: I don't think you should
# [01:16] <Rik`> except if you're working for an intranet tool
# [01:19] <Rik`> Evet: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2
# [01:20] <Rik`> if you look there, there is no sign of IE 5.5
# [01:20] <Evet> interesting
# [01:21] <Evet> microsoft forces windows users to upgrade to 6.0?
# [01:21] <Rik`> I don't remember the why, but IE 5.5 is just dead
# [01:21] <Philip`> I think XP ships with 6.0, and approximately nobody uses anything older than that
# [01:22] <Philip`> (Any older Windows, I mean)
# [01:23] <MikeSmith> hober: got a test case I can try?
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# [01:23] <MikeSmith> (for that validator error)
# [01:24] <Rik`> Evet: I think Philip` is right, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_6
# [01:24] <MikeSmith> oh
# [01:24] <Evet> oh, it was released in 2001
# [01:25] * MikeSmith notices hober link
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# [01:25] <MikeSmith> ah cool
# [01:26] <MikeSmith> was able to reproduce it
# [01:26] <MikeSmith> java.lang.NullPointerException in the IRI checker
# [01:28] <MikeSmith> oops
# [01:29] <MikeSmith> cause is some code I added recently to check for non-empty IRIs
# [01:29] <hober> ahh
# [01:29] <MikeSmith> but without checking for null before I do the non-emptiness check
# [01:30] <MikeSmith> (fixing it now)
# [01:31] <hober> rad
# [01:33] <Evet> http://www.amplesdk.com/about/compatibility/
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# [01:33] <Evet> it means, HTML5 even in IE 5.5+?
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# [01:34] <benschwarz> Hixie: Where can I get what you'd consider "input" for the author-spec?
# [01:35] <benschwarz> I want to generate a working copy here
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# [01:37] <_bga> Evet IE has very good abilities of extension. i mean 'behaviour, css expressions, filters, ...'. You can emulate any new api and spec using this features
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# [01:46] <MikeSmith> hober: fix checked in - https://bitbucket.org/validator/syntax/changeset/3b2c143408d2
# [01:47] <MikeSmith> will probably get pushed to validator.nu some time this week or next when hsivonen
# [01:47] <benschwarz> Morning folks
# [01:47] <MikeSmith> *hsivonen reploys
# [01:48] <MikeSmith> damn
# [01:48] <MikeSmith> re-deploys
# [01:48] <MikeSmith> he benschwarz
# [01:48] <MikeSmith> are you mobile?
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# [01:48] <MikeSmith> as in , able to walk around?
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# [01:48] <benschwarz> I can walk, but very stiff and sore
# [01:48] <benschwarz> Fluid on the knee :/
# [01:49] <MikeSmith> ouch
# [01:49] <hober> MikeSmith: thanks!
# [01:49] <MikeSmith> hober: thanks for catching it
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# [01:50] <AryehGregor> What does this "function() { atob(input) } threw with code INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5) expected INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR (5)" error in Firefox and Opera mean? It's confusing me. I'm told it's unrelated, so perhaps I shouldn't worry about it . . . http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/submission/AryehGregor/base64.html
# [01:51] <AryehGregor> But at least the reporting framework could surely have a clearer error message.
# [01:51] * AryehGregor pings jgraham
# [01:51] <MikeSmith> hober: fwiw, there appear to be no other errors on that page
# [01:51] <gsnedders> jgraham is asleep.
# [01:52] <MikeSmith> (other than the one about the profile attribute)
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# [01:52] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/check?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fspaceup.org%2Fsandiego%2Fsponsors%2F
# [01:52] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/check runs whatever code I currently have in my workspace
# [01:53] <MikeSmith> which includes changes that Henri or I have committed but that may not have gotten deployed at validator.nu yet, as well as changes that I've not committed yet
# [01:54] <MikeSmith> so it's not stable
# [01:54] <MikeSmith> but it's useful for testing
# [01:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, http://www.w3.org/html/check?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3C%21DOCTYPE%2520html%3E%250A%3Ctitle%3E%3C%252Ftitle%3E%250A%3Cp%3E%3Cb%3E%3Ci%3E%3C%252Fp%3E%250A
# [01:55] <MikeSmith> (which shows the duplicate error reports problem I mentioned)
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# [02:02] <Evet> do you recommend any specific IDE to use with Ample SDK?
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# [02:05] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: input for the author view of the spec would be either http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/complete.html or http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/index
# [02:05] <MikeSmith> I think
# [02:05] <MikeSmith> or both
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# [02:07] <MikeSmith> depending on whether you want the author view to be of the HTML5 subset or of the full version that includes Workers, etc.
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# [02:09] <MikeSmith> or you could just use http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index
# [02:10] <Evet> _bga: may i pm you?
# [02:10] <_bga> yes
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# [02:18] <benschwarz> MikeSmith: Single page vs Multi ?
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# [02:20] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: I think what you need to do is use the single page as source to generate the author view, then run the spec splitter on your output to generate for the multi-page author view
# [02:20] <benschwarz> MikeSmith: How complicated :)
# [02:21] <MikeSmith> would be much more complicated to use the multi-page version as your source
# [02:21] <MikeSmith> the spec splitter is actually really quite fast
# [02:22] <MikeSmith> and it handles re-writing URLs for all the inter-file links
# [02:22] <MikeSmith> among other things
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# [02:24] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think all that your build needs to do is take the full source, run some kind of filter on it to remove the class=impl parts, save that as the file that'll be the single-page author view, then run the spec splitter on that file to generate the multi-page view
# [02:26] <MikeSmith> plus whatever other tweaks you might want to also have the filer to do add any additional intro stuff or whatever that you want to be specific to the author view
# [02:27] <AryehGregor> I think I really do have to specify the base64 decoding algorithm.
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# [02:46] <AryehGregor> Okay, comments requested again: http://aryeh.name/tmp/spec.html
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# [02:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, oh, should I put Google copyright notices on the tests I submit or something like that?
# [02:52] <AryehGregor> Also, I wonder if I should put them in the Google/ directory instead of AryehGregor/. Seems kind of silly, it's not like I'm working with any actual Google employees here.
# [02:52] <jamesr_> AryehGregor: are we giving you $$$?
# [02:53] * AryehGregor supposes it makes no difference if he puts copyright notices or not
# [02:53] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, yeah, but as a vendor, since I didn't want to start a full-time job just yet.
# [02:53] <jamesr_> it
# [02:54] <jamesr_> depending on where you are and blah blah blah it's probably work for hire then which means the copyright belongs to the party supplying the $$$
# [02:54] <AryehGregor> It was specified that the copyright would belong to Google, I just wonder whether I need to bother with notices or whatever.
# [02:55] <AryehGregor> The tests in Google/ don't have them, so I won't.
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# [04:07] <MikeSmith> http://www.flock.com/node/162703
# [04:07] <MikeSmith> Zynga aquiring Flock
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# [06:13] <artenix> First time here. Hello all.
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# [06:15] <artenix> 
# [06:17] <MikeSmith> artenix: hi
# [06:17] <MikeSmith> it's pretty quiet here this time of day
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# [06:18] <MikeSmith> off hours for Americas and Europe
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# [06:20] <wirepair> anyone else from here happen to be going to: http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Summit_2011#tab=Working_Sessions
# [06:21] <artenix> It is 11.15 pm here. I'm looking for the differences between HTML5 and 4
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# [06:21] <MikeSmith> artenix: http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
# [06:21] <wirepair> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
# [06:21] <wirepair> beat me :/
# [06:21] <wirepair> ehe
# [06:21] <MikeSmith> heh
# [06:22] <MikeSmith> what is owasp?
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# [06:22] <wirepair> open web application security
# [06:22] <wirepair> basically a commitee for web application security
# [06:22] <MikeSmith> ah
# [06:22] <MikeSmith> cool
# [06:22] <wirepair> but looks like this year gettign some representation from the browser community
# [06:22] <wirepair> i see 5 people or so from mozilla attending
# [06:23] <wirepair> more and more web app + browser security is becoming entwined
# [06:23] <MikeSmith> where's the attendee list?
# [06:23] <wirepair> http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Summit_2011#tab=Attendees_And_Sponsors
# [06:23] <artenix> Tnx both of you. I will read it. Is W3C HTML5 final spec spected on 2011?
# [06:23] <wirepair> ah. MS people as well
# [06:24] <MikeSmith> artenix: the spec development is ongoing and will continue to be refined after we start in earnest on a test suite
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> and as the implementations get refined
# [06:25] <MikeSmith> there's not much point in focusing on the finality of the spec
# [06:26] <MikeSmith> the important milestones are really around what actually gets implemented across browsers
# [06:27] <artenix> cool. implementations are always better than documents :-)
# [06:27] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [06:27] <MikeSmith> wirepair: you might encourage abarth to attend if he's not planning to already
# [06:27] <wirepair> i don't really know him personally, but if i see him on irc i'll /msg him :)
# [06:28] <wirepair> but yeah it would be good to have him there i think
# [06:28] <abarth> i'm here on IRC :)
# [06:28] <wirepair> oh hi :)
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# [06:29] <wirepair> so, every year there is a web application summit hosted by owasp, this year there is some representation from the browser community
# [06:29] <wirepair> in particular microsoft and mozilla
# [06:29] <abarth> (reading the wiki)
# [06:29] <wirepair> if you're interested i could shoot over an email to justin clarke who is as far as i know organizing this
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# [06:30] <artenix> I'm from México, programmed before HTML 4 and XML, and want to see a giant leap on Web apps. kudos for WHATWG.
# [06:30] <abarth> in general, i'm trying to travel less these days
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# [06:30] <abarth> sounds cool though
# [06:30] <wirepair> yeah, it's in lisbon so.. kind of a hike
# [06:31] <Hixie> AryehGregor: make it all public domain so that there's no restriction on who can reuse it or how
# [06:31] <MikeSmith> artenix: hanging out on this channel is a great way to get up to speed
# [06:31] <Hixie> AryehGregor: google has no interest in owning the copyright on standards stuff, we just want to have them exist so we get better interop
# [06:31] <MikeSmith> the #html5 channel as well
# [06:31] <artenix> Time to read, have nice day
# [06:31] <MikeSmith> artenix: vaya con dios
# [06:32] <artenix> Will visit html5 then.
# [06:32] <artenix> S/then/too
# [06:32] <artenix> Mike Spanish?
# [06:33] <MikeSmith> artenix: that's about all the Spanish I know
# [06:33] <artenix> HTML5 es grandioso = HTML5 is great. :-) see you all
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# [06:34] <MikeSmith> cheers
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# [06:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: would be interested in knowing if you have thoughts about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11597 at this point
# [06:35] * Hixie looks
# [06:36] <Hixie> ' is a valid URL?!
# [06:36] <MikeSmith> yup
# [06:36] <MikeSmith> wacky
# [06:36] <Hixie> you have got to be kidding me
# [06:36] <MikeSmith> heh
# [06:37] <Hixie> is " allowed also?
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# [06:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [06:37] <wirepair> hu, i didn't know that
# [06:37] <Hixie> are you sure?
# [06:38] <Hixie> that seems seriously wacked
# [06:38] <Hixie> even for, you know, the uri spec
# [06:38] <MikeSmith> I am pretty sure
# [06:38] <MikeSmith> I discussed it with Julian earlier
# [06:38] <MikeSmith> which is what resulted in that bug getting raised
# [06:39] <MikeSmith> I'm interested because I want to add additional checking to the validator for the case of " or ' in the url part of meta refresh
# [06:40] <Hixie> commented on the bug
# [06:40] <MikeSmith> the proposal of adding a new "valid optionally quoted URL" microsyntax seems sound
# [06:40] * MikeSmith reads bug comment
# [06:40] <wirepair> just out of curiousity, what characters *are* invalid?
# [06:41] <MikeSmith> …but "...a valid URL that does not contain any literal U+0027APOSTROPHE (') or U+0022 QUOTATION MARK (") characters" wfm too
# [06:41] <MikeSmith> wirepair: whitespace
# [06:41] <Hixie> if there are other places that do this, then yeah... are there?
# [06:42] <Hixie> there's all kinds of things that are invalid in various parts of URLs
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# [06:42] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: it should be ok to do URL='foo"bar' or URL="foo'bar"
# [06:43] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: why would somebody want to do that?
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# [06:43] <MikeSmith> the bar is just going to be ignored
# [06:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no it's isn't
# [06:43] <MikeSmith> it is if it's in the refresh value
# [06:44] <MikeSmith> which is the only case I care about at the moment
# [06:44] <zcorpan> no it isn't :)
# [06:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so Julian's description in that bug is wrong, then?
# [06:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: no
# [06:45] <MikeSmith> oh
# [06:45] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: Julian's case is 'foo'bar'
# [06:45] <MikeSmith> yeah, I see, different case
# [06:46] <MikeSmith> so Julian's proposal of adding a new "valid optionally quoted URL" microsyntax seems better than "...a valid URL that does not contain any literal U+0027 APOSTROPHE (') or U+0022 QUOTATION MARK (") characters"
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# [06:47] <Hixie> having a microsyntax for one case is dumb :-)
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# [06:49] <zcorpan> the spec should just ban " and ' as the first character of the URL
# [06:49] <Hixie> that'd be fine too
# [06:49] <MikeSmith> that also would work fine for me too
# [06:49] <zcorpan> since currently it doesn't try to make quoted url conforming
# [06:49] <MikeSmith> easy to implement
# [06:50] <Hixie> commented again to that effect
# [06:50] <MikeSmith> thanks
# [06:51] <benschwarz> Hixie: I don't have permissions to read from the directory that you pointed me to
# [06:52] <Hixie> oh, right
# [06:52] <Hixie> just grab it from the website i guess
# [06:53] <benschwarz> http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/, index, right?
# [06:53] <Hixie> the most reliable URL to grab from is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
# [06:53] <Hixie> (same file, but sometimes svn goes down)
# [06:54] <Hixie> (whereas if the other url is down, nothing is gonna work on developers.whatwg.org either :-) )
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# [06:54] <benschwarz> Hixie: single file html?
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# [06:54] <benschwarz> I thought we were going to aim for the multiple file version?
# [06:54] <Hixie> yup
# [06:55] <benschwarz> ok.
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# [06:55] <Hixie> oh i assumed your build makefile thing did the splitting
# [06:55] <Hixie> there's a script philip` set up that does the splitting if you need it
# [06:56] <benschwarz> Hixie: yeah, I'll need that
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# [06:56] <benschwarz> unless MikeSmith can tie up my confusion :)
# [06:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith has the script, or some version of it
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# [06:57] <Hixie> failing that Philip` does too
# [06:57] * MikeSmith looks for the URL
# [06:57] <Hixie> (i actually just farm out the file to a CGI script on Philip`'s site that then returns me a tarball)
# [06:57] <Hixie> (so i don't have a copy myself)
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/spec-splitter/
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> I made some modifications to it for the dev.w3.org version
# [06:58] <MikeSmith> but not sure if those would be relevant outside
# [06:58] * MikeSmith peruses the changes
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# [07:00] <MikeSmith> seems I added some stuff related to generating the index of terms
# [07:00] <MikeSmith> but not sure if you want to use that
# [07:00] <benschwarz> MikeSmith, Hixie, this is the Makefile that I have from the previous work I did.
# [07:00] <benschwarz> https://gist.github.com/767586
# [07:01] <MikeSmith> man that's ugly
# [07:01] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: you don't need most of that
# [07:02] <MikeSmith> I think all you really need from that is the MANIFEST target
# [07:02] <MikeSmith> which is what runs the splitter
# [07:02] <MikeSmith> in the ugly makefile
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# [07:03] <MikeSmith> and the grep and perl stuff in there is only for the purpose of figuring out the filenames and writing them to that manifest
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> and the manifest is really only useful for the clean target
# [07:05] <MikeSmith> so really all you probably need is the $(PYTHON) $(PYTHONFLAGS) $(SPLITTER) $(SPLITTERFLAGS) $< part
# [07:06] <MikeSmith> and maybe you don't even really need to use a makefile at all, but just put it into a shell script
# [07:06] <benschwarz> so, just the `make manifest` block
# [07:06] <benschwarz> ?
# [07:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [07:07] <MikeSmith> with the dependency being the full spec source
# [07:07] <MikeSmith> that is, instead of "spec.html", just whatever source you pull from Hixie -- "complete.html" or "index"
# [07:07] <MikeSmith> oh
# [07:08] <MikeSmith> strike that
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# [07:08] <MikeSmith> you will first need to do something to filter out the class=impl parts
# [07:09] <MikeSmith> I guess you could reuse that xslt stylesheet I have there
# [07:09] <MikeSmith> oh wait
# [07:10] <MikeSmith> the stylesheet doesn't do that part
# [07:10] <MikeSmith> anolis does
# [07:10] <MikeSmith> so you should keep the spec.html target
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# [07:10] <MikeSmith> but remove the xslt stuff from it
# [07:11] <benschwarz> forgive me, but how confusing!
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# [07:12] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: https://gist.github.com/767595
# [07:12] <benschwarz> thats all that I need?
# [07:13] <MikeSmith> hang on, I'll edit down the whole makefile to what you need
# [07:13] <benschwarz> legend!
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# [07:20] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: ok, updated https://gist.github.com/767595
# [07:21] <MikeSmith> ah wait
# [07:21] <MikeSmith> you probably don't want "--enable terms" for now
# [07:21] <MikeSmith> it will add a bunch of time to the build if you use it
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# [07:22] <MikeSmith> ok, removed that from the gist
# [07:23] <MikeSmith> oh, need to remove "-make-index-of-terms"
# [07:24] <MikeSmith> (updated)
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# [07:32] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: for title, script, style, etc, the validator just says "Error: End of file seen when expecting text or an end tag." and marks the last character of the file
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# [07:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: hmm
# [07:33] <MikeSmith> yeah, that ain't good
# [07:33] <MikeSmith> we will need to further refine Henri's refinement of my original patch
# [07:35] <MikeSmith> Henri asked why I had implemented it using some additional lists (as stacks, basically) instead of just using the existing stack the parser already maintains
# [07:35] <MikeSmith> and I couldn't remember at the time why
# [07:35] <MikeSmith> now I remember :)
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# [07:37] <MikeSmith> but I guess it is better for the long term to have it implemented the way he refined it (by saving the location information in the existing stack)
# [07:38] <MikeSmith> because there are probably other ways in which that will prove useful eventually
# [07:38] <MikeSmith> so I guess I need to figure out how I can work with it to get it to handle the title, script, style cases
# [07:38] <MikeSmith> as well as have it not report duplicate errors
# [07:39] <MikeSmith> e.g., for http://www.w3.org/html/check?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%3Bcharset%3Dutf-8%2C%3C%21DOCTYPE%2520html%3E%250A%3Ctitle%3E%3C%252Ftitle%3E%250A%3Cp%3E%3Cb%3E%3Ci%3E%3C%252Fp%3E%250A
# [07:40] <MikeSmith> for data:text/html;charset=utf-8,<!DOCTYPE%20html>%0A<p><i><b><%2Fp>%0A<%2Fbody>
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# [07:59] <benschwarz> MikeSmith: https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org
# [07:59] <benschwarz> ;)
# [08:01] <Hixie> you probably don't need the --w3c flag either :-)
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# [08:01] <Hixie> not sure what it does though so i could be wrong
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# [08:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, don't need it
# [08:01] * MikeSmith updates the gist
# [08:02] <Hixie> also you probably want .../, not .../complete.html
# [08:02] <Hixie> since complete.html contains a bunch of stuff for which i haven't added the class=impl annotations
# [08:02] <Hixie> and for which i haven't written the domintro blocks
# [08:03] <MikeSmith> ah
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# [08:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: good point about duplicates. I have designed a fix (makin a taintable subclass of LocatorImpl and making cloned elements share one locator object so that they share taint)
# [08:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll implement later today when I get to my better text input method
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# [08:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: sounds great
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# [08:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the case that Simon mentioned will seem to require additional/different finagling
# [08:39] <MikeSmith> that is, unclosed title, script, style
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# [09:24] <benschwarz> Philip`: in the edition of the spec that I'm messing around with–spec-splitter.py adds a second doctype… Are you aware of this happening for anything else?
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# [09:48] <MikeSmith> heh, "XML is like violence — if it doesn’t solve your problems, you are not using enough of it"
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> I guess that motto has been around for a while
# [09:48] <MikeSmith> dunno how I missed it so far
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# [10:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: if you still awake, can you get the spec ready for WD publication on Jan 13
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# [11:03] <hsivonen> looks like reporting the unclosed elements as errors is yet another nail in the coffin of test cases testing the exact number of parse errors for number > 0
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# [11:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah
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# [11:57] <annevk> updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications#DOM
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# [11:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: can you make any needed updates to the html4-diffs doc for publication on the 13th?
# [11:59] <Philip`> benschwarz: I think I may have had doctype-related issues when changing between different versions of lxml
# [11:59] <benschwarz> Philip`: cool… just wanted to give you a heads up
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# [12:00] <Philip`> I think I just made it so it works on my own machine, which is all that matters to me :-)
# [12:00] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, that's doable
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# [12:02] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
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# [12:02] <MikeSmith> so if you can please get it ready I'd appreciate it
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# [12:07] <annevk> MikeSmith, is it ok after the weekend?
# [12:07] <annevk> MikeSmith, or during?
# [12:07] <MikeSmith> after is fine
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# [12:53] <hsivonen> I wonder how this WebKit bug came into being: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48593
# [12:54] <hsivonen> was someone trying to be helpful instead of reading specs?
# [12:54] <hsivonen> or did someone accidentally lump comment nodes together with text and CDATA nodes in a branch condition somewhere?
# [12:56] <annevk> sort of curious what happens with processing instructions now
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# [13:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have a simple patch for the xmlparser that I've also been meaning to ask you about
# [13:04] <MikeSmith> for addressing http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=805
# [13:05] <MikeSmith> dude is getting a "Error: The shape attribute on the a element is obsolete" for all a elements in his source despite not having any shape attribute on any of them
# [13:06] <MikeSmith> due to the fact that he's selected "XML: load external entities"
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# [13:06] <MikeSmith> so the parser is reading the DTD and defaulting the shape attribute to "rect"
# [13:06] <MikeSmith> because that's what the DTD requires
# [13:07] <MikeSmith> but it's not something that's obvious at all to most end users
# [13:07] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11124 -- consider doing A; considered A and rejected it; omg TrackerIssue!
# [13:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hence the proposed patch: https://bitbucket.org/validator/xmlparser-patches/qseries?apply=t&qs_apply=warn-default-attrs
# [13:08] <annevk> editorial stuff that ends up as TrackerIssue is soooo... *yawn*
# [13:11] <MikeSmith> if somebody adds the TrackerRequest keyword, the decision policy requires the chairs to issue-ify it
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# [13:13] <MikeSmith> though I guess that's not one that seems like it should merit much of everybody else's attention
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# [13:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: r=hsivonen
# [13:14] <hsivonen> on the patch
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> cool
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> thanks
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> wording is OK?
# [13:14] <MikeSmith> no tweaks to suggest?
# [13:14] <hsivonen> yes
# [13:15] <hsivonen> yes to OK. no tweaks to suggest.
# [13:15] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [13:16] <hsivonen> so what's the point of having multiple SSL cert classes below EV?
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# [13:17] <hsivonen> aren't they equivalent to the weakest level for practical purposes anyway if they are presented the same way to the user?
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# [13:17] <hsivonen> that is, what's the point of getting a class 3 cert if you can get the SSL indicator in browser UI using a class 1 cert?
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# [13:18] * hsivonen wonders why Netscape didn't build itself a business model by charging CAs for the root certs they shipped
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# [13:24] <Philip`> Nobody would have paid to become a CA before SSL became popular enough to make it clear that it was worth it
# [13:25] <Philip`> and once SSL became popular enough, Netscape couldn't demand money from CAs because the CAs could say no and Netscape couldn't remove them without hurting their users who want their online banks to continue working
# [13:25] <Philip`> perhaps
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# [13:30] <annevk> CAs always seem kind of dodgy to me
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# [13:51] <benschwarz> ping! Hixie
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# [13:57] <annevk> benschwarz, not sure what timezone you are on, but Hixie seems to have adjusted his schedule to be slightly more sane (he's in California)
# [13:57] <benschwarz> AEST
# [13:57] <benschwarz> and I thought as much
# [13:58] <benschwarz> I was just hopeful
# [13:58] <annevk> Australia; tough :)
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# [14:12] <annevk> "For the first time, we included HTML5 H.264 video directly in posts." -- IEBlog
# [14:21] <annevk> what is Mounir's IRC nick again?
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# [14:24] <volkmar> annevk: volkmar
# [14:24] <annevk> ah right
# [14:24] <annevk> so why can't the comma thing only be relevant for serialization?
# [14:25] <annevk> it seems you don't want to remove it while the user is still editing
# [14:26] <volkmar> what do you mean?
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# [14:28] <annevk> your solution 1 would do that
# [14:31] <volkmar> annevk: my solution 1 would remove the last comma in the DOM if there is nothing else than trailing whitespaces after it
# [14:34] <MikeSmith> tried https://github.com/aredridel/html5 -- HTML5 parser for node.js -- and seems usable
# [14:34] <MikeSmith> though slow
# [14:34] <MikeSmith> slower than html5lib
# [14:35] <MikeSmith> 1m47.097s to parse the HTML5 spec on my machine, versus 0m51.145s with html5lib
# [14:35] <annevk> volkmar, but the user would still have it?
# [14:36] <annevk> I guess it depends on what the field looks like :)
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# [14:36] <annevk> ideally it probably does not involve the user actually having to type commas
# [14:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the most popular XML tree representation for node.js? Does aredriedel's parser use whatever the most popular tree is?
# [14:37] * hsivonen should learn about node.js some day
# [14:38] <hsivonen> I wonder if the GWT compiler manages to produce code that has few enough browser deps to work on node.js
# [14:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, would be great if it did
# [14:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno which tree APIs are available now for node and which ones others might be using
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# [14:39] <hsivonen> ok :-(
# [14:39] <MikeSmith> but things are still changing pretty rapidly in node-land
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> but aredridel seems to have his head in the right place
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> see the "Interesting features" part of https://github.com/aredridel/html5#readme
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> [[
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> Streaming parser: You can pass parser.parse an EventEmitter and the parser will keep adding data as it's received.
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> HTML5 parsing algorithm. If you find something this can't parse, I'll want to know about it. It should make sense out of anything a browser can.
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> ]]
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# [14:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, I think hober is probably a lot more current than me around the state of the parsing and document API stuff in node
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# [14:42] <MikeSmith> jsdom
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> window = jsdom.createWindow(null, null, {parser: HTML5});
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# [14:46] <MikeSmith> jsdom.jQueryify(window, 'deps/jquery/dist/jquery.js', function(window, jquery) {
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> Script.runInNewContext('jQuery("p").append("<b>Hi!</b>")', window);
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> sys.puts(window.document.innerHTML);
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> interesting
# [14:46] <volkmar> annevk: if there is a UI for autocompletion for example, it needs to know which token is currently edited so when you select on item in the list a comma needs to be added
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# [14:46] <volkmar> that way you can select multiple values one after the other
# [14:47] <volkmar> but this comma should not block the form submission
# [14:47] <volkmar> and i don't see anything changed in the specs to make this happen
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# [14:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is that jsdom a DOM impl. in pure JS?
# [14:48] <MikeSmith> yes
# [14:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does it do Level 2?
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# [14:48] <MikeSmith> yeah, it does now, I think
# [14:49] <MikeSmith> did not initially
# [14:49] <MikeSmith> but was added within the last few months
# [14:49] <hsivonen> well, then it should be easy to use the V.nu parser on node.js
# [14:49] <hsivonen> might be worth trying if it already runs as-is
# [14:50] <MikeSmith> see https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/blob/master/example/browser/browser.js
# [14:50] <hsivonen> assuming node.js has setTimeout()
# [14:50] <MikeSmith> it does
# [14:50] <MikeSmith> it has everything that V8 has currently
# [14:51] <hsivonen> I really should play with node.js some time
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> I definitely recommend it
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# [14:51] <MikeSmith> just hard to keep up with because things are getting changed/added daily
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> embarrassment of riches
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> #Node.js channel is a good place to reach some of the core node devs
# [14:52] <hsivonen> ok. I implemented duplicate error suppression for unclose elements
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> oh cool
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> you fast
# [14:52] <hsivonen> I'll get it pushed.
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# [14:54] <annevk> volkmar, how does the "latest values" concept not work?
# [14:55] <annevk> although it does not seem entirely clear how everything fits together :/
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# [14:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: writing code in Java without proper unit tests is so much faster than writing C++ with unit tests.
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [15:00] <artenix> Hi. Is this a channel to discuss the HTML5 spec doc on w3c site?
# [15:01] <volkmar> annevk: for what i understand, the "latest values" concept doesn't take into account the case where the last value is the empty string after removing whitespaces
# [15:01] <Philip`> artenix: Yes
# [15:01] <volkmar> so "a, b, c, " will be changed to "a,b,c,"
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# [15:02] <artenix> Philip tnx. One sentence says: "Another example of the mark element is highlighting parts of a document that are matching some search string. If someone looked at a document, and the server knew that the user was searching for the word "kitten", then the server might return the document with one paragraph modified as follows" I remember Google has been granted a patent for doing something very similar
# [15:04] <annevk> volkmar, is that actually a value though? hmm
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# [15:05] <annevk> I guess it should remove those that are empty from latest values just in case
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# [15:08] <artenix> it is just an example of use of mark tag, but it sounds like google's patent
# [15:09] <annevk> artenix, well, the W3C has a Patent Policy and Google is a member of the group
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# [15:10] <artenix> im just a developer not a lawyer
# [15:11] <artenix> Annevk so there is ok to have that example on spec right?
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# [15:11] <artenix> s/there is/is it
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# [15:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: have you ever done any benchmarking with the GWT version of the parser?
# [15:13] <annevk> well, I'm not a lawyer either, but the basic idea is that if a Member organization holds a patent on some technology in a specification, which the Member organization helps developing through a W3C Working Group, the Member organization gives away a RF-license for said patent for everyone to use
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# [15:15] <artenix> annvek cool I was not aware of that. Tnx! Have to go. See you all later.
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# [15:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have but JS engines and JS-to-DOM glue have improved since then
# [15:22] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [15:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: back in the Firefox 3.5 days, either DOM/layout dominated or the code didn't get traced
# [15:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: because back then tracer on vs tracer off showed no difference
# [15:23] <MikeSmith> I see
# [15:24] <MikeSmith> well, current node -- 0.3 -- is up to date with latest V8 I think
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# [15:24] <MikeSmith> so in addition to the performance stuff that was there already, it has the crankshaft optimizations that were added more recently
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# [15:51] <annevk> https://github.com/aredridel/html5 didn't know about this
# [15:51] <annevk> cool
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# [17:36] <webr3> I've just said: "one huge ommission from html imho, is that you can't include remote document fragments, would cater for many needs which are thrown on to "ajax" and iframes" - and somebodies replied that you can do this in HTML5
# [17:36] <webr3> is that right? pointer to a spec or section?
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# [17:39] <annevk> <iframe>?
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# [17:40] <MikeSmith> XHR.responseText…
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# [17:40] <webr3> nah, more like an ssi where the document fragment becomes part of the main doc context, not in it's own frame/context
# [17:40] <Philip`> <iframe seamless>?
# [17:40] <webr3> Philip` that may be it, will check
# [17:41] <annevk> SSI is server-side
# [17:41] <annevk> and the rest is details, really
# [17:41] <Philip`> It's still like an iframe in the DOM, so it doesn't introduce scary security issues, but should render less like an independent frame
# [17:42] <webr3> Philip` cool - cheers
# [17:42] <annevk> <iframe sandbox seamless> to be totally safe
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# [17:42] <annevk> but it's just a specific form of <iframe>
# [17:44] <webr3> and iframes allow document fragments (as in no html/head/body etc?)
# [17:44] <webr3> and can inherit css from main doc?
# [17:46] <annevk> former no, latter yes
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# [17:47] <webr3> annevk, ty
# [17:47] <Philip`> Full documents don't need html/head/body tags, though
# [17:48] <Philip`> so you can write something that looks a lot like a fragment
# [17:48] <webr3> is doctype still required?
# [17:49] <webr3> our would say "<ul><li>foo</li></ul>" w/ text/html media type be "valid" html?
# [17:50] <annevk> need doctype
# [17:50] <annevk> except maybe in srcdoc=""
# [17:51] <Philip`> Hmm, also need <title> unless it's in srcdoc
# [17:51] <webr3> Philip`, ty that was my next question lol
# [17:51] <Philip`> Maybe it's not quite so fragmenty, then :-(
# [17:52] <webr3> would be nice if there was a media-type for html fragments, w/ +xml variant for the obvious
# [17:53] <annevk> what's wrong with merging server-side?
# [17:53] <webr3> cacheing, network effects etc etc
# [17:53] <webr3> anyhow, random train of thought, which I've not thought about long enough to warrent a full discussion (or for me to back up why I'm asking ;)
# [17:53] <webr3> tyvm :)
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# [17:54] <annevk> right... would need to be researched first before we add a bunch more complexity
# [17:54] <webr3> exactly
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# [17:55] <annevk> typically though not having to do an additional request wins from caching
# [17:55] <annevk> this is also e.g. why google.com has a bunch of stuff inlined rather than as external resource
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# [18:35] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ping
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# [18:50] <charlvn> i seem to be getting "This is a work in progress!" on the actual editors draft which the message links to
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# [18:54] <annevk> that's temporary
# [18:55] <annevk> we're about to publish drafts
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# [19:01] <charlvn> cool np
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# [19:15] <Hixie> Ms2ger: pong
# [19:19] <annevk> shit
# [19:19] <annevk> I replied on public-html
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# [19:42] <annevk> Hixie, I think what volkmar is missing is that the empty string is not a value
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# [19:43] <Hixie> ah
# [19:43] <annevk> e.g. if the user has a@a,b@b,c@c and then deletes b@b through backspace from his list
# [19:43] <Hixie> well we'll see when he replies i guess
# [19:43] <annevk> or deletes c@c but not the comma
# [19:43] <Hixie> hey does hallvord ever hang out on irc?
# [19:43] <annevk> seldomly
# [19:43] <Hixie> k
# [19:44] <annevk> -ly, apparently
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# [19:46] <Hixie> afk, bbiab
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# [19:48] <Philip`> If I want to display some program code with <pre><code>... the code ...</code></pre>, and then want to insert some annotations inline to highlight particular features (like "// This section is setting up stuff for the thing", probably rendered in a different colour), what's appropriate markup?
# [19:48] <annevk> http://www.asymco.com/2011/01/06/this-is-the-most-exciting-ces-ever/
# [19:49] <annevk> "These actions confirm the end of the PC era."
# [19:52] <charlvn> why does this sound so familiar... oh yes 10 years ago the media said the same thing :P
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# [19:52] <volkmar> Hixie: so "a@a, b@b, c@c," should be reprensented as "a@a,b@b,c@c" in the DOM?
# [19:53] <charlvn> oh wait, after reading the post it seems it was just misworded. should have been "end of the windows era"
# [19:54] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you told me in an e-mail on November 29 that all spec prose and tests are supposed to be copyright Google.
# [19:54] <annevk> volkmar, the basic idea is that what the user sees is "irrelevant"
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# [19:54] <volkmar> annevk: i got that
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# [19:55] <annevk> volkmar, so if you have a bunch of values the user entered and want to serialize them, you end up with your second representation
# [19:55] <annevk> assuming the values were a@a / b@b / c@c
# [19:56] <annevk> but if the user enters these space-separated, comma-separated, colon-separated, or via some kind of better UI is very much up to the UA
# [19:56] <volkmar> annevk: it's not clear to me that the serialization algorithm doesn't take into account empty values
# [19:56] <annevk> yeah, when I told Hixie that he said "well we'll see when he replies i guess"
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# [19:58] <annevk> I wonder if it is implied somehow because everywhere else empty is equal to no value, but it would not hurt if it was made more explicit
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# [20:00] <Workshiva> annevk: The article also seems to ignore the existence of AMD
# [20:01] <annevk> AMD?
# [20:01] <Workshiva> You know, the company that isn't intel but still makes CPUs
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# [20:07] <Philip`> The one that's less than 20% of the x86 CPU market?
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# [20:15] <Workshiva> Philip`: What percentage of the PC market does ARM currently have? :)
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# [20:16] <Philip`> ARM doesn't make processors so it has zero percent in any market :-p
# [20:16] <Workshiva> Besides, Microsoft long ago decided to port windows to x64, an architecture from Intel's arch enemy.
# [20:17] <mpilgrim> ah Philip`, always the pedant
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# [20:20] <Philip`> Workshiva: Intel could (and did) adopt and extend the x64 architecture (because of patent cross-licensing), so that didn't hurt them - they just implemented it and took all the market share
# [20:20] <Philip`> I expect they can't do that with ARM architectures
# [20:22] <AryehGregor> Didn't I just read that NVIDIA is expanding into ARM?
# [20:22] <AryehGregor> It would be cool if ARM killed x86 sometime, but it seems unlikely as long as Windows remains the dominant OS. Windows is a pretty lame contender without the massive base of binary applications.
# [20:23] <Workshiva> And the massive base of existing hardware
# [20:23] <Philip`> http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/customrel.do?easyirid=A0D622CE9F579F09&version=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=705184
# [20:23] <Philip`> "NVIDIA announced today that it plans to build high-performance ARM® based CPU cores, designed to support future products ranging from personal computers and servers to workstations and supercomputers."
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# [20:24] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, people replace their hardware every few years, that's no issue if their software continues to work.
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# [20:24] <AryehGregor> So is NVIDIA planning to back Linux and kill Microsoft, or get Mac to switch its CPU architecture for a second time in a few years, or what?
# [20:25] <Workshiva> Did you miss the announcement of Windows 8 supporting ARM?
# [20:25] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://blogs.nvidia.com/2011/01/project-denver-processor-to-usher-in-new-era-of-computing/ - "Microsoft’s announcement that it is bringing Windows to ultra-low power processors like ARM-based CPUs provides the final ingredient needed to enable ARM-based PCs based on Denver."
# [20:25] <AryehGregor> Ah.
# [20:25] <Philip`> Sounds like they're happy to stick with Microsoft
# [20:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but who's actually going to use Windows if you can't get all the applications?
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> I'd think it'd be squarely worse than Linux in that case.
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> Although maybe I'm biased, since I hate Windows. And hate Linux significantly less (usually).
# [20:27] <Philip`> I thought people didn't use applications nowadays, except for Office and a web browser
# [20:27] <Philip`> which Microsoft are porting to ARM
# [20:27] <Workshiva> You'd be surprised how bad Linux is without a fiercely devoted relative tech support
# [20:28] <AryehGregor> Windows can be pretty terrible too if you don't have a relative for tech support.
# [20:28] <Workshiva> With Windows everyone is your tech support
# [20:28] <AryehGregor> What with all the viruses and such. Although granted, when it fails, it usually doesn't fail as horribly.
# [20:28] <AryehGregor> True.
# [20:28] <AryehGregor> Well, we'll see.
# [20:28] <AryehGregor> Competition in the CPU market can only be a good thing.
# [20:29] <Philip`> (I suppose people still run games, but usually mostly new games, and NVIDIA can ask the developers to port their new games)
# [20:29] <Workshiva> I'm sure emulation isn't impossible either
# [20:29] <AryehGregor> If the ARM chips are fast enough, then emulation would be workable, yeah.
# [20:29] <AryehGregor> But not if we're talking low-powered notebooks where you're hoping to save lots of power.
# [20:30] <AryehGregor> Philip`, games are often assembly-optimized . . .
# [20:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Usually only tiny bits of them, and they already have to support PPC anyway (for consoles)
# [20:31] <Philip`> so they already have to deal with portability issues
# [20:34] <annevk> anyone been following reddit lately? http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/exdpc/b/ this guy really
# [20:34] <Workshiva> really
# [20:35] <miketaylr> annevk: that Sure_Ill_Draw_That guy is awesome
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# [20:35] <Hixie> volkmar: what do you mean by "a@a, b@b, c@c,"?
# [20:35] <Hixie> AryehGregor: copyright google works as well
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# [20:42] <AryehGregor> Hixie, now what spec do I submit my spec prose to for atob() and btoa()?
# [20:42] <AryehGregor> (in case you didn't see the latest version: http://aryeh.name/tmp/spec.html)
# [20:43] <Hixie> they're on Window?
# [20:43] <Hixie> i guess the html spec
# [20:43] <Hixie> unless DOM Core has any Window stuff? annevk?
# [20:44] <Hixie> comments on the draft spec:
# [20:44] <Ms2ger> No
# [20:44] <annevk> Hixie, don't want Window
# [20:44] <Ms2ger> DOM Core isn't touching Window
# [20:44] <Hixie> k
# [20:45] <Hixie> then yeah, html
# [20:45] <Hixie> AryehGregor: send mail to whatwg with the text and link to the tests, and then when i add it to the spec we can add the tests to the htmlwg's test suite
# [20:45] <annevk> One of the goals is to not reference HTML5
# [20:45] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I already added it to the HTMLWG's test suite.
# [20:45] <Hixie> awesome
# [20:45] <Hixie> anyawy, comments on the spec:
# [20:46] <Hixie> the regexp scares me, but i can't come up with a rational argument against it.
# [20:46] <AryehGregor> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
# [20:46] <AryehGregor> I tried to write it in prose, but it looked like it would be way more complicated.
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# [20:46] <Hixie> the "repeat" step is unclear about when you end the loop, e.g. if the input is the empty string, do you run it at least once? (that's why i end up using gotos a lot rather than structured loops... english is hard to make structured loops with)
# [20:47] <AryehGregor> The Firefox implementation actually just throws exceptions at various points in the algorithm proper, but that would be significantly longer to write.
# [20:48] <AryehGregor> I guess the reason against the regex is that nobody's likely to implement it that way.
# [20:48] <AryehGregor> So it's harder to check if the implementation is correct by source inspection.
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# [20:48] <AryehGregor> Although it's easier to check that the tests are correct, since in JavaScript it's simpler.
# [20:48] <AryehGregor> I dunno, do any implementers have opinions?
# [20:49] <AryehGregor> As for the loop, how about: "While position does not point past the end of input:"
# [20:49] <AryehGregor> That clearly suggests the C definition of "while", so I think it's nicer than a purely procedural way. Of course, we could define what we mean by "while" for extra clarity.
# [20:50] <AryehGregor> But if it's going in HTML, obviously you get the final say over the exact wording, so maybe no point in nitpicking.
# [20:50] <AryehGregor> (I'm sure you'll make my <ul>s into <ol>s too, even though that degrades appearance in all UAs, irreparably in non-CSS UAs.)
# [20:50] <annevk> AryehGregor, what you describe under atob is not a binary string
# [20:50] <annevk> AryehGregor, it's a series of octets
# [20:51] <AryehGregor> What's the difference?
# [20:51] <annevk> a string consists of Unicode characters, not bytes
# [20:51] <Hixie> atob() takes a string as input
# [20:51] <annevk> sure
# [20:51] <Hixie> as does btoa()
# [20:51] * AryehGregor changes it to "sequence of octets"
# [20:51] <Hixie> since JS only has a string type
# [20:52] <annevk> you should read the spec again Hixie :)
# [20:52] <AryehGregor> Not now, I've changed it.
# [20:52] <Hixie> AryehGregor: btw, you wouldn't be able to rely on the regexp to do the JS tests, since that would mean that an implementation that uses the regexp engine to implement it, yet has a bug in the JS engine, would fail both the test and the control
# [20:52] <annevk> it's about the input to base64
# [20:52] <Hixie> annevk: oh, my bad
# [20:52] <Hixie> annevk: i thought you meant btoa()
# [20:52] <Hixie> annevk: got them backwards
# [20:52] <AryehGregor> It said "Otherwise, the user agent must convert [the input string] to a binary string . . ."
# [20:53] <AryehGregor> Hixie, hmm. But we have ES tests for that, right? I mean, maybe there will be some bug in the browser so that the test harness is run incorrectly and sometimes reports wrong results.
# [20:53] <AryehGregor> I think that if the test is written in JS, we have to assume a correct implementation of JS itself.
# [20:53] <annevk> regular expressions, yay
# [20:53] <Hixie> generally you want your tests to be as unlikely as possible to have false positives
# [20:54] <Hixie> (false negatives, or rather, misattributed negatives, aren't a big deal)
# [20:54] <hsivonen> so is this newly-announced desktop ARM stuff 32 or 64-bit?
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> I could write a JavaScript file that generates the test file, but that seems excessively cumbersome for a theoretical correctness improvement. In particular, I've reviewed all the test results and they look sane, and I also happen to know that Firefox doesn't actually use a regex to throw an exception.
# [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: personally i'd spec it without regexp, meaning you can test it with regexp with no problem, but that's just a personal preference. regexp in the spec is fine by me from a rational perspective. :-)
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> I'll change it to non-regex if implementers prefer.
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> I mainly did it in regex because it was shorter to spec and easier to write the test, but it's probably more annoying to implement.
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> And implementers > spec writers, after all.
# [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: btw, having numbers in the steps is a good thing for discussion (otherwise, refering to specific steps is a pain)
# [20:56] <Hixie> AryehGregor: "While position does not point past the end of input:" seems reasonable
# [20:56] <hsivonen> bah. the Ballmer keynote requires Silverlight. Not gonna install that.
# [20:56] <AryehGregor> The numbers change all the time, though. That's the problem with all the numbers in HTML5.
# [20:56] <AryehGregor> I originally filed feedback giving section numbers instead of names and you told me to stop because the numbers were different by the time you read the feedback.
# [20:56] <Hixie> yeah but the sections have names, the steps don't :-)
# [20:57] <Hixie> better to have _something_ to refer than nothing :-)
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# [20:57] <Hixie> anyway, <ul> is wrong because the order matters
# [20:57] <AryehGregor> Using numbers creates the expectation that you'll actually refer to the numbers someplace in the prose. But you don't do that. I once suggested that you do that (or someone did) and you said you wouldn't because then you'd forget when the numbers changed and you'd make the spec wrong.
# [20:57] <Hixie> yeah i used to refer to numbers and algorithms kept breaking when i changed them
# [20:57] <Hixie> we really need a <ref> element to fix that
# [20:58] <AryehGregor> You can give the number of the step even if it's not written down, assuming you're able to count.
# [20:58] <Hixie> but that can wait til v2
# [20:58] <AryehGregor> Or just improve your preprocessor. :)
# [20:58] <Hixie> hey that's not a bad idea
# [20:58] <Hixie> i'll have to think about that
# [20:58] <Hixie> as an anolis feature
# [20:58] <AryehGregor> As for the definition, I realize that my usage is wrong according to what HTML5 says. But authoring conformance requirements in HTML5 are more or less your personal opinion, so I feel free to ignore them if I disagree.
# [20:58] <Hixie> anyway, counting is fine with the btoa() algorithm, but it doesn't scale
# [20:58] <AryehGregor> So quote the beginning of the step.
# [20:58] <Hixie> <ol>/<ul> hasn't changed since, like, html2
# [20:59] <Hixie> hardly my opinion :-)
# [20:59] <hsivonen> View Source reveals a VLC-compatible video stream. Lame to pretend that SIlverlight is needed.
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> The fact that your opinion happens to accord with your predecessors' opinions on this point is immaterial.
# [20:59] <Hixie> actually my opinion is that we should only have one list element
# [20:59] <Hixie> i don't really see why we have two
# [21:00] <Hixie> but i try not to let my opinion affect the spec _too_ much :-P
# [21:00] <AryehGregor> So <list type=1> instead of <ol>, or what? You can't leave the numbering to CSS, clearly.
# [21:00] <annevk> might end up with HHTML
# [21:00] <annevk> if you did that
# [21:00] <Hixie> AryehGregor: dunno, haven't thought about it much, since it doesn't matter :-)
# [21:00] <AryehGregor> :)
# [21:00] <Hixie> if i got to write HHTML according to my opinions, it would look so different it's not even funny
# [21:01] <Hixie> we'd get to strip out microdata :-)
# [21:01] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'll put that text at a more permanent URL and send a link to whatwg.
# [21:01] <Hixie> and <object>, <div>, clas=""...
# [21:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: thanks
# [21:01] <Hixie> also we'd use a totally different syntax
# [21:01] <annevk> @html@ what is happening?! @-html@
# [21:02] <AryehGregor> Do I have my headings backwards?
# [21:02] <AryehGregor> I have the btoa algorithm labeled atob and vice versa.
# [21:02] <AryehGregor> Oops.
# [21:02] <annevk> that explains why Hixie was confused
# [21:02] <AryehGregor> Poof.
# [21:02] <Hixie> i thought the names were a bit odd, but i just figured that it was yet more historical weirdness :-)
# [21:03] <annevk> btoa (formerly atob) still says binary string
# [21:03] <annevk> there were two instances originally
# [21:04] <AryehGregor> I fixed that like a minute before you pointed it out.
# [21:04] <annevk> no -moz-column-count and -o-column-count?
# [21:04] <annevk> ninja edits...
# [21:04] <AryehGregor> Oops.
# [21:05] <AryehGregor> I intended to make that cross-browser but forgot about it.
# [21:06] <annevk> there must be an easier way to say what you did there btw
# [21:06] <AryehGregor> Which part?
# [21:06] <annevk> like take the code point and subtract some amount
# [21:06] <AryehGregor> (It seems like display: run-in isn't working as I expect except in WebKit.)
# [21:06] <AryehGregor> You have to have about five cases then.
# [21:06] <Hixie> oh one thing you should add is a class=note explaining why you didn't defer to the base64 spec for decoding
# [21:06] <volkmar> Hixie: i meant "a@a, b@b, c@c, " in the UI, what should be the DOM value in that case?
# [21:06] <Hixie> otherwise julian will ask me to add such a note
# [21:06] <AryehGregor> It's what I do in my test implementation, but I thought it was simpler to understand at a glance if I wrote the spec this way.
# [21:07] <AryehGregor> I carefully chose five columns so they'd line up nicely.
# [21:07] <Hixie> volkmar: depends. Does the UI think that's four values or three?
# [21:07] <annevk> AryehGregor, oh okay, then a table is probably easier
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# [21:08] <Hixie> volkmar: i.e. has the user entered three e-mail addresses, or has he entered four, one of which is the empty string?
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# [21:09] <Hixie> volkmar: it's probably easier to think about it if we describe the UI in other terms, e.g. "[a@a] [b@b] [c@c]" is obviously three items, and "[a@a] [b@b] [c@c] []" is obviously four -- which one describes what you meant?
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> Note added.
# [21:10] <volkmar> Hixie: if you see the control as a text field, the user can write textually "a@a, b@b, c@c, "
# [21:10] <AryehGregor> Actually, come to think of it, if we threw an exception for like one more thing, I could defer to RFC 4648 for decoding too.
# [21:10] <volkmar> but if you leave that choice to the UI... ok
# [21:11] <AryehGregor> As far as I can tell, there's only one fairly marginal corner case of invalid input where Firefox doesn't throw an exception.
# [21:11] <AryehGregor> (note in second-to-last step)
# [21:12] <oojacoboo> just to clarify, <section> tags should all be on the same level, not having any child <section> elements, corect?
# [21:12] <Hixie> volkmar: i dunno that atstraight text field is a particularly good UI for this, but yeah, it's up to the UA. So in this case it'd probably be most helpful if the UA considered empty strings as being entries removed from the list, and didn't include them in the /value/
# [21:12] <AryehGregor> Well, other than if the trailing = signs are missing.
# [21:12] <Hixie> oojacoboo: you can nest <section> elements
# [21:12] <Hixie> oojacoboo: those are subsections
# [21:12] <oojacoboo> Hixie: ok, thanks
# [21:13] <Hixie> oojacoboo: e.g. the example in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/sections.html#the-h1,-h2,-h3,-h4,-h5,-and-h6-elements
# [21:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that would certainly simplify the spec!
# [21:14] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you can also just hard-code the return values for specific inputs, e.g. if the empty string is an undefined case, you can just say "return the empty string" for that case and only defer to the algorithm for the well-defined cases
# [21:14] <AryehGregor> Then I could specify that if you add trailing = signs, btoa(atob(s)) == s unless one of the functions throws an exception.
# [21:14] <oojacoboo> Hixie: ok cool, I was under the impression that it was best not to nest, but that makes sense for sub-sections
# [21:14] * Hixie changes the HTML spec on the WHATWG site from "Draft Standard" to "Living Standard" to more accurately reflect reality
# [21:14] <AryehGregor> That would be a good correctness check.
# [21:14] * Ms2ger likes
# [21:22] <annevk> makes it sound like it needs watering
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# [21:23] <Ms2ger> Well, it does
# [21:24] <Hixie> indeed
# [21:24] <annevk> and I guess it grows things too
# [21:24] <annevk> still
# [21:24] <annevk> :)
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# [21:28] <AryehGregor> Okay, e-mail sent.
# [21:29] <AryehGregor> I'll ask for the tests to be approved by the Testing Task Force as soon as something is added to the spec.
# [21:30] <AryehGregor> hallvors is working on copy-paste stuff? Does he have a public spec, and how can I contact him?
# [21:31] <annevk> see wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs
# [21:31] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, he sends snapshots to public-webapps, apparently
# [21:31] <AryehGregor> Oh, right, thanks.
# [21:31] <annevk> his email address can be found in the archives to public-webapps
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# [21:35] <AryehGregor> Does the web app WG share its test suite with the HTMLWG, or is it separate?
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# [21:37] <Ms2ger> Officially separate
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# [21:41] <AryehGregor> Tiresome.
# [21:41] <beowulf> hgroup, would it perhaps make things less confusing for whoever is confused if it were named <headline> ?
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> Is it set up the same way, at least?
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# [21:43] <AryehGregor> Looks like it, so no big deal.
# [21:45] <annevk> we want to use the same framework and all
# [21:45] <beowulf> my reasoning, which is no doubt faulty, is that hgroup is about headlines of various types, the sort described here for example http://goo.gl/5wCVt
# [21:46] <Hixie> is the title and subheading of the spec a headline?
# [21:46] <beowulf> depends if the are run on i suppose
# [21:47] * beowulf goes to look at the spec headline
# [21:47] <Hixie> top of whatwg.org/c
# [21:47] <Hixie> (top of whatwg.org/C if you prefer the multipage copy)
# [21:47] <beowulf> i'm tempted to say yes
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# [21:51] <aho> hm. hgroup>h1+h2+h2 (zen expression) is fine, too, right?
# [21:51] <aho> i.e. <hgroup><h1>...</h1><h2>...</h2><h2>...</h2></hgroup>
# [21:53] <beowulf> i don't understand the question :)
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# [21:53] <aho> well, having one h1 and two h2s there
# [21:54] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/td/docs/javascript%20code%20conventions/index.html
# [21:54] <aho> rev + date got the same weight
# [21:54] <aho> brs are silly :>
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# [21:55] <beowulf> works for me
# [21:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: Since NVIDIA explicitly mentions supercomputers, it sounds quite likely that either they're thinking of 64-bit addressing or whoever wrote the press release was wildly misinformed
# [21:58] <Philip`> (Looks like ARM hasn't released or announced anything 64-bit yet, though)
# [21:58] <AryehGregor> Sheesh, ARM isn't 64-bit? That will have to change for the server market, let alone supercomputers.
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# [22:00] <Philip`> It can apparently do 1TB RAM with PAE, which is probably okay for servers that run lots of small processes
# [22:01] <Philip`> (It only hurts when you need >4GB in a single virtual address space)
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# [22:03] <AryehGregor> Like, say, a database server.
# [22:03] <AryehGregor> Or any kind of data processing.
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# [22:15] <Philip`> AryehGregor: About btoa: What if the input string contains U+FFFF? That's a noncharacter, so it's not a character whose code point is strictly greater than U+00FF
# [22:16] <AryehGregor> Philip`, how is U+FFFF not a character? What are JavaScript strings if not sequences of characters? Sequences of UTF-16 thingies, the maybe-characters-maybe-half-characters?
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# [22:16] <Philip`> It's defined as a noncharacter, and I don't think noncharacters are characters
# [22:16] <Philip`> hence being called noncharacters
# [22:17] <Philip`> JS strings are sequences of 16-bit code units, I think
# [22:18] <Philip`> which sometimes are conceptually decoded as (possibly invalid) UTF-16 into a sequence of Unicode characters
# [22:19] <Philip`> (I don't know what WebIDL strings are)
# [22:20] <heycam> same
# [22:20] <Philip`> Ah, that sounds minimally crazy then
# [22:27] <annevk> hmm
# [22:27] <annevk> so whenever we talk about characters we should use 16-bit code units?
# [22:28] <annevk> and define the mapping somewhere between 16-bit code units and Unicode?
# [22:28] <annevk> XMLHttpRequest has the greather than U+00FF thing too
# [22:28] <annevk> greater*
# [22:29] <Philip`> In the >U+00FF case it's kind of pointless pedantry because everyone will presumably implement what you expect
# [22:30] <annevk> wait, you can just substitute character for code point
# [22:30] <Philip`> It might matter more in the case of lone surrogates
# [22:30] <annevk> just talk about code points and it's okay
# [22:30] <annevk> afaik
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# [22:32] <Philip`> Is "\ud800\udc00" two code points or one?
# [22:32] <Philip`> Maybe "code units" is a safer term since it's not suggesting a direct correspondence to Unicode characters
# [22:34] <Philip`> (and when you do care about the correspondence, you should use an explicit encoding/decoding step)
# [22:34] <annevk> a single surrogate is a code point
# [22:34] <annevk> not sure Unicode has defined code unit
# [22:34] <heycam> "code unit" is on http://unicode.org/glossary/
# [22:37] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Character_categories
# [22:37] <jamesr_> AryehGregor: JavaScript strings are sequences of 16 bit numbers
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# [22:44] <Hixie> the html spec uses "character" to mean "code point", fwiw
# [22:44] <Hixie> i guess maybe i should add that to the terminology section
# [22:46] <jamesr_> Hixie: wait, so what's the number of "characters" (as per the html spec) in this string: "a𐅐c" ? 3?
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# [22:47] <jamesr_> it's 3 unicode code points, but in javascript "a𐅐c".length === 4
# [22:48] <jamesr_> because it's 4 16-bit code units
# [22:48] <jamesr_> and does it ever matter?
# [22:48] <Hixie> i don't have a utf-8 clean workflow, so i'm not sure what you pasted, but the answer is likely 3 if i guessed correctly what you meant.
# [22:48] <Hixie> i don't think the length ever matters
# [22:48] <Hixie> maybe for textarea.length or whatever that's called
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# [22:49] <jamesr_> i pasted "a" "character that is represented by a surrogate pair in utf-16" "c"
# [22:49] <Hixie> yeah, that's three characters
# [22:49] <jamesr_> but .length on it in JS is 4
# [22:49] <Hixie> where things are done in 16bit code units it's called out explicitly
# [22:49] <jamesr_> grr. javascript is the worst
# [22:49] <Hixie> (that might be nowhere)
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# [23:17] <stevela> Am wondering what the behavior for a video element should be when presented with a non-video src (e.g. an mp3). webkit will play it, but controls are messed up (as are those in chrome) due to the size being 0x0. Visually, should it appear as an audio element?
# [23:18] <stevela> i.e. with an non-video source, and the controls attribute set
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# [23:23] <aho> it should cause the monitor to explode into the developers face. obviously.
# [23:23] <AryehGregor> stevela, doesn't sound like a standards issue to me, sounds like a QoI issue. File bugs against the browsers.
# [23:25] <Hixie> stevela: unless there's css setting the size, it should render a 0x0 box and play the music.
# [23:26] <Hixie> stevela: if there's css setting the size, it should render a box of the given size and play the music.
# [23:26] <Hixie> well, playing the music depends on autoplay="" being set and on the mp3 being music, obviously.
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# [23:27] <stevela> [btw - am working on chrome]. Thx. what about the controls though. I guess as they're inside the box, then they shouldn't be visible, even if asked for.
# [23:27] <AryehGregor> (listen to Hixie, not me)
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# [23:28] <Hixie> well what happens to the controls is independent of whether the video is a video or an mp3 -- the same should happen regardless, if the size is 0x0
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# [23:28] <Hixie> or 1x1, or anything smaller than the controls expect
# [23:28] <stevela> thx Hixie,
# [23:29] <Hixie> basically, do a best-effort attempt to make useful controls i the given size, maybe floating over the page, bigger than the <video>'s rendering area, or displaying just a single button that pops up a control window, or just have a context menu, or maybe just do nothing
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# [23:29] <Hixie> but especially, whatever you do should be clearly superior to what any other browser does :-)
# [23:30] <stevela> :-)
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# [23:36] <jamesr_> make a really, really, really small pause button
# [23:37] <AryehGregor> 0 pixels wide?
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# [23:44] <Hixie> if you add an element with qualified name "foo:bar" and namespace "baz" to an HTML element in an HTML document, and then get its parent's innerHTML, what should you get?
# [23:44] <Hixie> <foo:bar></foo:bar>? <bar></bar>? nothing?
# [23:44] <Hixie> i guess the former
# [23:51] <Hixie> xmlns:xmlns="" and xmlns="" are the same attribute?
# [23:51] <Hixie> that's just confusing
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# [23:58] <annevk> Hixie, they're not
# [23:58] <annevk> Hixie, you cannot declare xmlns as a prefix
# [23:59] <annevk> Hixie, see http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-names/#xmlReserved
# [23:59] <Hixie> sure, it's invalid
# [23:59] <Hixie> or non-well-formed or whatever
# [23:59] <Hixie> i just meant conceptually
# [23:59] <karlcow> conceptually or practically in the browser?
# Session Close: Fri Jan 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)