/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-09 / end

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  39. # [02:03] <benschwarz> Philip`: So the regular editions of the spec all receive a body element from your spec splitter?
  40. # [02:03] <benschwarz> and a closing html tag?
  41. # [02:07] <Philip`> benschwarz: Hmm... No
  42. # [02:07] <Philip`> Looks like I run it with the --html5lib-serialiser option (but no others)
  43. # [02:07] <Philip`> and the html5lib serialiser seems to omit optional tags by default
  44. # [02:08] <benschwarz> Philip`: They're the options that MikeSmith setup for me too
  45. # [02:08] <Philip`> The <html> and <body> aren't optional in e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html because they have attributes
  46. # [02:08] <Philip`> but </body> and </html> are always optional
  47. # [02:09] <Philip`> (and <body> with no attributes is optional, which is probably the case in your version of the spec)
  48. # [02:09] <benschwarz> Philip`: https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/blob/master/Makefile
  49. # [02:10] <benschwarz> yeah, I have no <body>
  50. # [02:10] <benschwarz> all of which makes styling and modying after harder than it should be
  51. # [02:11] <Philip`> Styling via CSS selectors? There's still a body element in the DOM so you can style it exactly as if there was an explicit <body> written there
  52. # [02:12] <Philip`> although actually it probably breaks in some browsers because the first element is <header> which isn't always recognised as an element that triggers the implicit body
  53. # [02:13] <Philip`> You could add omit_optional_tags=False into the html5lib.serializer.HTMLSerializer(...) line in spec-splitter.py to make all open/close tags explicit
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  76. # [03:06] <benschwarz> Philip`: *some* browsers add a body of its own
  77. # [03:06] <benschwarz> but mobile safari, for example, does not.
  78. # [03:07] <benschwarz> its foolish to rely on the consistent nature of browsers from different vendors
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  80. # [03:08] <benschwarz> Either way, I really want to get those tags in there because it makes my job easier :)
  81. # [03:09] <benschwarz> Philip`: any reasons we're not using utf-8 encoding?
  82. # [03:10] <benschwarz> Philip`: hmm. now everything is within the head: view-source:http://developers.whatwg.org/
  83. # [03:10] <benschwarz> :/
  84. # [03:14] <benschwarz> ah. even wierder, there are two heads
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  94. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: what different behavior do you see in mobile safari?
  95. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: btw, you know about Live DOM Viewer?
  96. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
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  98. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> you can use that page in any browser to see the actual DOM that the browser constructs for any given document or markup fragment
  99. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> about the encoding, the reason I was running the splitter with the encoding set to ascii was that I had problems with characters getting borked by anolis or some other part of the toolchain in my processing setup
  100. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> you should switch it to utf-8 and if you don't see any problems just keep it that way
  101. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: I think any difference you see in mobile safari or other browsers is due to what Philip` mentioned
  102. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> that is, their html parsers don't know about the header element
  103. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> they don't know that <header> implies a <body> start tag
  104. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> so another way to solve that is not use <header>
  105. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> but instead use <div class=header> or something
  106. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> or maybe consider using the --w3c option
  107. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> which will do that for you I think
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  109. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> hmm
  110. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
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  112. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> maybe you need to do it with anolis
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  115. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> hmm
  116. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> but I find no header element in the source nor any part of anolis or the splitter that generates one
  117. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> so I guess that means you are putting it in with your code
  118. # [04:22] <MikeSmith> in which case, it's even easier for you to fix :)
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  127. # [04:42] <eboyjr> Will <div href="foo.html> be supported? I heard it was and I like the idea
  128. # [04:43] <eboyjr> with a quote after foo.html of course
  129. # [05:14] <llrcombs> ^^ seconded
  130. # [05:15] <llrcombs> it'd make <a> around <div> unneccesary
  131. # [05:15] <llrcombs> how about <anyBlockOrInlineElement href="anyUrl">?
  132. # [05:17] <llrcombs> I've always thought that most block and inline elements should be more or less the same at base, with some elements having added UI (<select>, <input>, etc.), attributes (<form action="blah">), or styling (<a> has the blue color and underline; <div> has display: block;, <span> has display: inline;)
  133. # [05:18] <bga_> chrome10 still buggy with playing many sounds parralelly
  134. # [05:18] <bga_> :(
  135. # [05:20] <bga_> or laggy
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  138. # [05:21] <Hixie> eboyjr, llrcombs: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML5_should_support_href_on_any_element.21
  139. # [05:22] <llrcombs> true enough
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  143. # [05:44] <benschwarz> Hixie: hi :)
  144. # [05:44] <benschwarz> I missed MikeSmith, damn
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  147. # [05:47] <Hixie> benschwarz: hey
  148. # [05:47] <benschwarz> Hixie: I'm trying to ensure that we have a body element in the spec after it is split…
  149. # [05:47] <Hixie> compat with legacy UAs?
  150. # [05:50] <benschwarz> Hixie: I was seeing some strangeness with styling the body under iOS
  151. # [05:50] <benschwarz> I think Philip` has sorted me out with options for html5lib though :)
  152. # [05:51] <Hixie> k
  153. # [05:51] <Hixie> we can also change <header> to <div> for now
  154. # [05:51] <Hixie> there's no rush to use the new elements
  155. # [05:52] <Hixie> for the spec i am basically targetting ua vendors so making it use the latest stuff is fine, since they're likely using cutting edge UAs
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  158. # [06:16] <eboyjr> About the href attribute thing, it says, "It adds no new functionality that can’t already be achieved using the a element and a little script.". Well what if javascript is turned off?
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  160. # [06:17] <eboyjr> Browser vendors report that implementing it would be extremely complex, but you can work around it with a simple script.. hrm
  161. # [06:19] <Hixie> there's a lot of things like that
  162. # [06:21] <eboyjr> Heh HTML5 should group <dt>s and <dd>s together in <di>s!.. I just use <div>s hehe shhh
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  165. # [06:33] <benschwarz> Hixie: I'm happy to use newer elements
  166. # [06:33] * Parts: eboyjr (~eboyjr@unaffiliated/eboyjr)
  167. # [06:33] <Hixie> k
  168. # [06:35] <benschwarz> Hixie: unless we're having trouble styling them (which we're not, currently)
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  295. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you never told me what the beforeundo/beforeredo events are supposed to me. I didn't find any info on them in a quick search.
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  352. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> How best to write "If the length of input is congruent to 1 mod 4"? I've currently got "If the length of input minus one is divisible by 4".
  353. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> I'm thinking a lot of authors won't be so comfortable with modular arithmetic.
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  357. # [20:16] <Philip`> "Let /length/ be the length of the input. If /length/ % 4 == 1 ..."
  358. # [20:16] <Philip`> then assume readers understand JS
  359. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> If <var>length</var>&minus;1 is divisible by 4
  360. # [20:18] <Philip`> Use MathML
  361. # [20:19] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Any number is divisible by four.
  362. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> Is there some specific place for DOM Range tests?
  363. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Put them up somewhere and tell me :)
  364. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Now I'm confused by this: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10624
  365. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Where are these attributes actually defined right now?
  366. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Aha, now I see.
  367. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Or not.
  368. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> Okay, I think I've got it now.
  369. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html
  370. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
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  379. # [20:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah, i did some searches and came up empty. Not sure where I came up with those.
  380. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Okay.
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  383. # [21:03] * abarth is now known as abarth|socket
  384. # [21:03] <abarth|socket> othermaciej: you around?
  385. # [21:03] <othermaciej> abarth|socket: sorta
  386. # [21:03] <othermaciej> what's up?
  387. # [21:03] * abarth|socket is now known as abarth
  388. # [21:03] <abarth> i'm going to write up a draft of the websockets spec
  389. # [21:04] <othermaciej> interesting
  390. # [21:04] <abarth> can you give a quick brain dump of what you think the best design point is w.r.t. the state of the working group?
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  393. # [21:04] <abarth> straw point pointed to upgrade+masking
  394. # [21:04] <abarth> your experiments point to AES-CTR
  395. # [21:05] <abarth> some folks seem concerned about export control
  396. # [21:05] <abarth> but that doesn't seem like a real issue
  397. # [21:05] <othermaciej> I am not sure of the details of how to do AES-CTR but still have a per-frame nonce
  398. # [21:05] <othermaciej> I don't think export control is a real issue
  399. # [21:05] <othermaciej> it's possible I am wrong
  400. # [21:05] <abarth> oh, that's easy, you just choose a nonce
  401. # [21:05] <abarth> and use that as the counter value
  402. # [21:05] <abarth> like choosing a new IV
  403. # [21:06] <othermaciej> let me break it down another way, and list what I think are the open questions where no consensus has been declared:
  404. # [21:06] <abarth> ok
  405. # [21:06] <othermaciej> - should masking cover the whole frame, or only the payload, or only payload plus extension data?
  406. # [21:06] <othermaciej> - should masking be built-in and default, or expressed as a mandatory extension?
  407. # [21:07] <othermaciej> - should the mask incorporate some fixed entropy from the client and server in addition to the per-frame values?
  408. # [21:07] <othermaciej> - should masking be a simple XOR, or should HMAC be used to generate a mask, or should we use AES-CTR?
  409. # [21:08] <othermaciej> - should a fake CONNECT be sent after the initial GET+Upgrade (and presumably after receiving the upgrade response)?
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  411. # [21:08] <benschwarz> Hixie: !ping
  412. # [21:09] <othermaciej> I'm not sure if anyone at this point is arguing to still use HELLO frames combined with masking
  413. # [21:09] <abarth> ok, my thoughts are:
  414. # [21:09] <abarth> 1) whole frame
  415. # [21:09] <abarth> 2) build-in and default
  416. # [21:09] <abarth> 3) use client and server entropy in the key, but not each per-frame nonce
  417. # [21:10] <abarth> 4) AES-CRT
  418. # [21:10] <abarth> 5) No fake CONNECT
  419. # [21:10] <Hixie> benschwarz: yo
  420. # [21:10] <benschwarz> any way that we can mark the implementation seperatly?
  421. # [21:11] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  422. # [21:11] <othermaciej> abarth: sounds like a sensible set of choices to me
  423. # [21:12] <abarth> my basic thoughts are that we've delayed long enough
  424. # [21:12] <abarth> and we should pick something reasonable and declare victory
  425. # [21:12] <Hixie> we'd delayed long enough 6 months ago
  426. # [21:12] <Hixie> good luck
  427. # [21:12] <abarth> Hixie: thanks
  428. # [21:16] <benschwarz> Hixie: mark it was implementation for real, then I can hide it?
  429. # [21:16] <Hixie> benschwarz: sorry i really have no idea what you're referring to
  430. # [21:16] <Hixie> benschwarz: can you give me a bit more context?
  431. # [21:16] <benschwarz> Hixie: sorry, our email
  432. # [21:17] <Hixie> oh the reflection things?
  433. # [21:17] <benschwarz> yeah
  434. # [21:17] <Hixie> the problem is that there's nothing other than the implementation stuff for the reflected attributes
  435. # [21:17] <Hixie> at the moment
  436. # [21:17] <Hixie> there's the line in the idl, then some line in the prose that says "the foo idl attribute must reflect the foo content attribute", and that's it
  437. # [21:18] <Hixie> (where "reflect" is defined in an earlier section in lots of detail)
  438. # [21:21] <benschwarz> Hixie: which would also be okay to not show on the developers edition
  439. # [21:21] <benschwarz> okay. lets leave what I've got and see if there are any objections
  440. # [21:21] <benschwarz> that make sense, anyway
  441. # [21:21] <benschwarz> ie/ someone can fight me for it
  442. # [21:22] <benschwarz> Hixie: I just wanted to know that I was going to be removing something else important
  443. # [21:24] <Hixie> yeah
  444. # [21:24] <Hixie> originally i was gonna mention all the reflected attributes somewhere
  445. # [21:25] <Hixie> but i gave up since the idl was visible
  446. # [21:25] <Hixie> but maybe i should go through at some point and mention them again
  447. # [21:27] <othermaciej> abarth: I look forward to your draft
  448. # [21:27] <abarth> othermaciej: fette sent me the XML for this draft, i'm editing it now. hopefully i'll have it posted later today
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  450. # [21:27] <benschwarz> Hixie: maybe just start doing it with the new ones and sweep through over time
  451. # [21:28] <benschwarz> it can't hurt to have more meta in the spec
  452. # [21:28] <benschwarz> Hixie: did you see the *red*?
  453. # [21:28] <Hixie> when i do it i'll just do them all at once
  454. # [21:29] <Hixie> i noticed you'd changed the styles if that's what you mean :-)
  455. # [21:29] <benschwarz> Hixie: if you have an ipad or iphone around, give a look on those too
  456. # [21:29] <Hixie> btw once thing you might want to hide in the dev copy is a[href^="#refs"]
  457. # [21:29] <Hixie> don't have any handy
  458. # [21:30] <benschwarz> I did see those, they're link references that are shown in the references section?
  459. # [21:30] <Hixie> yeah
  460. # [21:30] <Hixie> they're needed in the normative copy for precision, but they make the spec a bit ugly to read
  461. # [21:30] <benschwarz> I was going to come up with some way to pull through the link and style it somehow
  462. # [21:30] <Hixie> ah that works too
  463. # [21:30] <benschwarz> but it all got hard quickly…
  464. # [21:30] <Hixie> maybe a link in the margin or something
  465. # [21:30] <benschwarz> I'll work something out
  466. # [21:31] <Hixie> most of them frankly devs just won't care
  467. # [21:31] <benschwarz> yeah exactly, pull the reference into an "aside"
  468. # [21:31] <Hixie> i'd just drop the entire references section if i were you
  469. # [21:32] <benschwarz> Hixie: anyway, I started reading through on my ipad last night
  470. # [21:32] <benschwarz> going from zero—hero with this when I'm done won't be hard
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  474. # [21:33] <benschwarz> I want to explore adding rel="next" and rel="previous" to the table of contents and using some script to navigate on touch-based devices
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  477. # [21:35] <benschwarz> actually, they're in the head already
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  483. # [21:44] <Hixie> benschwarz: looking good.
  484. # [21:44] <benschwarz> Hixie: ok. Its 740am. I gotta get ready for the first day of work and head out. Email is good if you want to get at me
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  486. # [21:44] <Hixie> k
  487. # [21:44] <Hixie> later dude
  488. # [21:44] <Hixie> thanks again for all the hard work!
  489. # [21:45] <benschwarz> Enjoying it ;)
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  491. # [21:47] <benschwarz> Later, all.
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  506. # [22:23] <Huvet> what's the right channel to ask about html5lib?
  507. # [22:24] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  508. # [22:24] <Hixie> here's a good place, when the right people are around
  509. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> Huvet, just ask
  510. # [22:27] <Huvet> thanks, was unsure if this was the right place: I'm trying to search the tree produced by html5lib with css selectors. This is the code I'm trying, and I'm just getting an empty array back: http://pastebin.com/CbpL6bF0 - any idea what I did wrong or where I should ask? I'm thinking this is a html5lib+lxml incompatibility
  511. # [22:27] <gsnedders> Huvet: You need to specify the namespace for the XPath queyr.
  512. # [22:27] <gsnedders> *query
  513. # [22:28] <Huvet> oh, yeah, things are namespaced with lxml, right
  514. # [22:28] <Huvet> I keep forgetting that, because "regular" css is not
  515. # [22:30] <Huvet> I see a warning about settings namespaceHTMLElements=False, but it seems to work: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=138 - Bad idea?
  516. # [22:30] <Huvet> "Add a warning about us being broken when set to False."
  517. # [22:35] <Huvet> thanks btw gsnedders! :)
  518. # [22:36] <Hixie> css is namespaced too, it's just that the default namespace is "*" which matches everything
  519. # [22:36] <Hixie> ("foo" in css is the same as "*|foo", which matches "foo" in all namespaces)
  520. # [22:36] <Hixie> (unless you explicitly declare a namespace)
  521. # [22:37] <Huvet> ah, so it's really a bug in lxml's parsing of css to xpath, they should add the namespace too?
  522. # [22:37] <Hixie> dunno, now we're out of my area of expertise :-)
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  528. # [22:39] <Huvet> ok, but then I take it I won't break things by disabling namespaces when parsing
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  554. # [23:50] <Hixie> abarth: make sure the key header is sent before the url header, so you can't sometimes smuggle a key header in the url
  555. # [23:50] <Hixie> actually, just make sure the key comes first
  556. # [23:50] <Hixie> since the other headers also have author-controlled values
  557. # [23:52] <Hixie> abarth: also, "Any status code other than 101 must be treated as a failure" should be s/must/will/ since that's an informative section
  558. # [23:52] <Hixie> abarth: actually there's a few more musts in that section
  559. # [23:54] <Hixie> christ the framing got complicated
  560. # [23:55] * Hixie gets lost during the framing section and gives up
  561. # [23:56] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@unaffiliated/sean/x-7291292) (Quit: Leaving)
  562. # Session Close: Mon Jan 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)