/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 11 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> jgraham: got to be honest, personally i think the developers edition styles are unusable and love the whatwg spec styles :-)
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> jgraham: but if you have any suggestions as to what would make the spec more usable, let me know
  5. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: But... it *is* the case.
  6. # [00:01] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: if that's the attitude everyone took, where will we be tomorrow?
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  8. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> The question is where we are *today*. And today we are in a world where form elements are displayed differently in different browsers and OSes.
  9. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> And today I'm willing to let tantek solve that problem.
  10. # [00:02] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y224181.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
  11. # [00:02] <oojacoboo> so, the answer is, that someone is working on a consistent styling spec for form elements?
  12. # [00:03] <oojacoboo> or that no one gives a shit, and the way it currently is, is the way it is and will be
  13. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> Yes. Tantek.
  14. # [00:03] <jgraham> Hixie: I think the problem is it depends on the use case. Sometime I would really like narrower columns for easier reading. Sometimes I want as much on the screen as possible
  15. # [00:03] <jgraham> Alternative style sheets are not a good solution here :)
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  17. # [00:06] * heycam moves requestAnimationFrame higher up his mental todo list
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  21. # [00:10] <Hixie> jgraham: why would alt ss not be a good solution?
  22. # [00:10] <Hixie> jgraham: sounds like exactly the right solution
  23. # [00:10] <Hixie> jgraham: i agree that there are different use cases
  24. # [00:10] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm happy to add other style sheets or whatnot
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  26. # [00:11] <jgraham> Hixie: Because I probably wouldn't know which I prefered until after I had done whatever it was
  27. # [00:11] <Hixie> jgraham: or to make the current one better in any way you can suggest
  28. # [00:11] <beowulf> jgraham: what about <h1><em>Main head</em>sub head</h1>
  29. # [00:11] <jgraham> and switching stylesheets probably works badly
  30. # [00:11] <Hixie> jgraham: switching stylesheets works fine.
  31. # [00:11] <Hixie> jgraham: the other problem seems to apply to any solution.
  32. # [00:11] <jgraham> Hixie: It retains the scroll position?
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  34. # [00:12] <jgraham> even if the document is resized
  35. # [00:12] <Hixie> jgraham: wait you want to change the style sheet _while_ reading?
  36. # [00:12] <jgraham> and is almost instananeous?
  37. # [00:12] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  38. # [00:12] <Hixie> jgraham: dude, switching to another document isn't going to maintain your scroll position either and it's gonna be a hecka lot less instantaneoes
  39. # [00:12] <Hixie> instantaneous
  40. # [00:12] <Hixie> man that's hard to type or dvorak
  41. # [00:13] <Hixie> on
  42. # [00:13] <jgraham> Well the point is that I wouldn't realise that I was using the wrong stylesheet until I had already found my position in the document and so on
  43. # [00:13] * jgraham notes that he would like to be asleep but there is supposed to be someone returning 1/2 bags that never arrived in England on 20/12/2010
  44. # [00:14] <Hixie> well i don't know how to solve that problem
  45. # [00:15] <Hixie> but i'm willing to solve any problem that has solutions :-)
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  50. # [00:31] <jgraham> beowulf: Why would that be better? It would negate several of the advantages of the design. If you really wanted to reuse an existing element <h1>Main <small>sub</small></h1> would be better
  51. # [00:31] <jgraham> But I don't really see the point
  52. # [00:31] <hober> I don't really see the problem with <hgroup>
  53. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Plus, those both prevent you from using <em>/<small> for their intended purposes in headings.
  54. # [00:32] <beowulf> just asking, looked similar to me
  55. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> hober: I don't have a problem with <hgroup>, but I see some advantages to jgraham's idea.
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  57. # [00:34] <jgraham> hober: I think that <hgroup> does add some complexity since you have to care about the whole tree to determine if a given <hx> is actually a heading or not
  58. # [00:34] <jgraham> Well the whole parent heirachy at least
  59. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Hm? Surely you only need to check the immediate parent.
  60. # [00:38] <jgraham> TabAtkins: even in the invalid case?
  61. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Damn invalid cases.
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  63. # [00:46] * hober thinks Hixie should use a 241543903 image as an example in the spec
  64. # [00:48] <Hixie> hm?
  65. # [00:49] <hober> google it and you'll get the idea
  66. # [00:49] <hober> I don't know when this started, but it's quite odd and surprisingly funny
  67. # [00:49] * webr3 is now known as _o
  68. # [00:51] <jamesr_> roc: oh? where is it?
  69. # [00:52] <jamesr_> roc: the major difference in the webkit impl is that we currently don't plan to support animationStartTime
  70. # [00:52] <jamesr_> roc: and i'd like to add an element parameter to .requestAnimationFrame() for authors to use if the animation is tied to some element (i.e. updating a <canvas>), so we can throttle offscreen ones
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  76. # [01:00] <Hixie> hober: o_O
  77. # [01:02] <hober> Hixie: that's what I said :)
  78. # [01:02] <Hixie> to be honest i try to avoid memes like that because they have a pretty short shelf-life (though i guess this one might have a longer shelf-life than usual since freezers are used to-- never mind)
  79. # [01:05] <hober> I wonder if there are any Alcor photos with this meme involved...
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  100. # [01:30] <Hixie> woah, weird. a number of bugs have ended up in the canvas component for no apparent reason.
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  102. # [01:30] <Hixie> oh, i see why
  103. # [01:31] <Hixie> in other news, i'm an idiot
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  119. # [02:08] <Hixie> anyone have an opinion on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11487 ? (comment on the bug if so)
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  121. # [02:08] <Hixie> er wait, wrong bug
  122. # [02:09] <Hixie> i meant http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11487
  123. # [02:09] <Hixie> er
  124. # [02:09] <Hixie> wtf
  125. # [02:09] * Hixie pokes at his clipboard
  126. # [02:09] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11482
  127. # [02:09] <Hixie> there we go
  128. # [02:15] <MikeSmith> time to create a registry for file extensions
  129. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Hrm. File extensions *tend* to be meaningful, so that's a nice thing.
  130. # [02:19] <jcranmer> really?
  131. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, I thought this was talking about DnD.
  132. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> Well, wait, though. @accept with a mimetype doesn't need to care about what the type of the file is, just the actual extension on the filename. I don't see what the possible interop problems are.
  133. # [02:22] <jcranmer> basically, I think he wants to let people do extensions instead of mime-types for upload
  134. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah. So what's the issue? I say <input type=file accept=docx>.
  135. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> It doesn't matter what type of files use the docx extension, just that they *do* use it
  136. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> Having multiple applications using the same extension isn't a problem. It's non-optimal, in that the UA will expose files that the author probably doesn't want to receive, but shrug.
  137. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> would be nice if we could just add comments to bugs directly from this channel
  138. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> or specify a line range from krijnh logs to be copy-pasted as a comment to a bug
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  187. # [04:32] <oojacoboo> does <button> not inherit font-face ?
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  240. # [06:08] <jwalden> does anyone know if there are any UAs which support, or claim to support, background-size and SVG images as CSS backgrounds?
  241. # [06:08] <oojacoboo> anyone know why I am having trouble applying margin-top to an element directly following a <legend> ?
  242. # [06:09] <oojacoboo> jwalden: presto
  243. # [06:10] <jwalden> oojacoboo: that's opera, right?
  244. # [06:10] <oojacoboo> si
  245. # [06:10] * jwalden is sorely tempted to say, "that's yes, right?" ;-)
  246. # [06:10] <oojacoboo> you must be an Aussie
  247. # [06:11] <jwalden> no, just someone with a poor (read: awesome) sense of humor and a taste for horrible puns
  248. # [06:11] <oojacoboo> :P
  249. # [06:11] <jwalden> this is good, tho, should give me something to test against (I'm slowly working at implementing that in Gecko)
  250. # [06:12] <jwalden> right now it's write-a-bunch-of-tests madness
  251. # [06:12] <jwalden> then try to implement, then see which tests I screwed up horribly
  252. # [06:12] <oojacoboo> jwalden: it's experimental with gecko and webkit
  253. # [06:12] <jwalden> oojacoboo: which is experimental?
  254. # [06:12] <oojacoboo> although, I don't know, the latest builds might have decent support
  255. # [06:13] <jwalden> I implemented background-size in Gecko, and I *tried* to leave a test that would start failing when SVG support got added, but I did so incompetently, so it continued to fail
  256. # [06:13] <oojacoboo> try them with prefixes
  257. # [06:13] <jwalden> Firefox 4 supports background-size without prefix
  258. # [06:13] <oojacoboo> -moz-background-size
  259. # [06:13] <jwalden> and SVG backgrounds
  260. # [06:13] <oojacoboo> -webkit, etc
  261. # [06:13] <oojacoboo> jwalden: nice
  262. # [06:13] <jwalden> but it doesn't do any special handling for vector image display with anything other than background-size: auto
  263. # [06:14] <jwalden> at least, not if the SVG image is missing an intrinsic dimension, or things like that
  264. # [06:14] <oojacoboo> ah, well, that's kinda sucky
  265. # [06:14] <jwalden> contain and cover are the most interesting cases for that, I think
  266. # [06:14] <jwalden> *shrug* you get vector images, which is a start
  267. # [06:15] <oojacoboo> I assume this is just experimental anyway?
  268. # [06:15] <jwalden> not sure how often people would want to, or will come to, depend on the arcana of background-size negotiation with vector images missing intrinsic width, height, or ratio
  269. # [06:15] <jwalden> well, it's conceivable the patch could make 4.0
  270. # [06:15] <jwalden> my mess of tests can only help that
  271. # [06:15] <jwalden> but it's probably not worth betting on it
  272. # [06:16] <oojacoboo> yea, I just mean your project, just an experiment, right
  273. # [06:16] <jwalden> no, it'd be to ship it
  274. # [06:16] <jwalden> I have an aversion to leaving things half-finished :-)
  275. # [06:16] <oojacoboo> gotcha
  276. # [06:17] <oojacoboo> I want to beat webkit with a stick for this bug
  277. # [06:17] <oojacoboo> or at least I think it's a bug
  278. # [06:18] <oojacoboo> jwalden: you wouldn't know why on http://dev.rentpost.com/signup the margin-top: isn't being applied to the <ol> inside each fieldset, would you?
  279. # [06:18] <oojacoboo> in webkit*
  280. # [06:18] <oojacoboo> well, chrome at least. I assume it's all webkit
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  282. # [06:19] * jwalden looks
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  284. # [06:21] <jwalden> dunno for sure, but fieldset and legend are fairly hackneyed elements, and they might not play well with restyling
  285. # [06:21] <oojacoboo> jwalden: yea, that's what I figured
  286. # [06:22] <oojacoboo> but seems pretty messed up, if you ask me
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  289. # [06:23] <jwalden> sure
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  299. # [06:45] <jwalden> guh, Opera only has the horribly un-ergonomic Ctrl+Tab for tab-switching
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  302. # [06:53] <jwalden> okay, I'm not buying Opera's rendering here
  303. # [06:53] * jwalden uploads some files
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  309. # [07:06] <jwalden> I claim http://whereswalden.com/files/mozilla/testcases/tall--auto-16px--percent-width-percent-height.html and http://whereswalden.com/files/mozilla/testcases/ref-tall-16x8.html should render identically, which is not how Opera renders them
  310. # [07:07] <jwalden> sigh, and http://whereswalden.com/files/mozilla/background-size/bg-position.html still isn't fixed
  311. # [07:07] <jwalden> (entirely separate issue from vector images and background-size)
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  330. # [08:37] <benschwarz> Hixie: !Ping
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  339. # [09:01] <hsivonen> is abarth now the editor of the Web Socket protocol?
  340. # [09:01] <abarth> nope
  341. # [09:01] <abarth> fette is the editor
  342. # [09:01] <abarth> i just wrote a draft to try to help the process along
  343. # [09:01] <abarth> the IETF is strange that way
  344. # [09:01] <abarth> anyone can write a draft at any time
  345. # [09:01] <abarth> in their own private namespace
  346. # [09:03] <hsivonen> oh. ok.
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  356. # [09:12] <hsivonen> weird. Totem plays Apple Animation and uncompressed audio in a mov container
  357. # [09:12] <hsivonen> but arista and transmageddon don't like it
  358. # [09:13] <hsivonen> I wonder why. Isn't gstreamer codec detection the same for all gst apps?
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  363. # [09:24] <zcorpan> wow, no new hybi emails this morning
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  365. # [09:37] <zcorpan> oh, they were just a bit delayed
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  369. # [09:55] <annevk> so much email
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  373. # [10:03] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011JanMar/0011.html -- "The above doesn't change the image in my Netscape 7.2 on Windows98 platform."
  374. # [10:05] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  375. # [10:06] <hsivonen> annevk: that's more recent than Netscape 3 or OS/2 that one IETF guy was using
  376. # [10:06] <hsivonen> s/or/on/
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  378. # [10:07] <annevk> heh
  379. # [10:07] <annevk> but IETF hasn't realized Unicode exists
  380. # [10:07] <zcorpan> or HTML
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  402. # [11:00] <Dashiva> annevk: They know it exists, but they think it's too hard to get right
  403. # [11:01] <jgraham> Why would anyone use Netscape 7.2? It's not like it was that great when it was released…
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  406. # [11:05] <annevk> wasn't Netscape 7.2 some Firebird clone?
  407. # [11:05] <annevk> I thought Netscape died after 6
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  410. # [11:08] <hsivonen> annevk: It continued to 9: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Navigator_9
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  420. # [11:15] <annevk> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ezub3/type_to_shoot_html5_game_my_entry_for_mozillas/ is pretty sweet
  421. # [11:15] <annevk> hsivonen, wow
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  423. # [11:20] <Rik`> annevk: really cool but no pause :(
  424. # [11:22] <annevk> yeah, and a bit too simple
  425. # [11:22] <annevk> but the comments have tips
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  427. # [11:23] <Lachy> Rik`, read the instructions when you load
  428. # [11:23] <Lachy> it said Esc to pause
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  430. # [11:24] <Rik`> oh, we're supported to read instructions now ? :D
  431. # [11:24] <Lachy> also, it's very adictive. But a bit too simple
  432. # [11:27] <Lachy> it's addictive. But doesn't really get difficulty till levels past 20
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  434. # [11:30] <hsivonen> the game works in IE9 but the audio is bad. I wonder if that's IE9's fault or VirtualBox's fault
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  436. # [11:43] <jgraham> Filed a bug on <hgroup>/<subhead> btw
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  439. # [11:49] <annevk> good good
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  441. # [12:13] <beowulf> fwiw on hgroup/subhead I would suggest it subline rather than subhead, historically/in print headlines are broken into mainline, subline, etc. subhead sounds like it should be used in header. to me h1-h6 are about headlines, not headers (as headers are described in html5)
  442. # [12:15] <jgraham> beowulf: Sure, <subhead> might not be the best name
  443. # [12:15] <jgraham> Would you also call it a subline if it came before the main heading?
  444. # [12:16] <Evet> what is your favourite auth* method between application and API?
  445. # [12:17] <beowulf> yeah, well, as i understand it the mainline is the one with the name rather than the other way round
  446. # [12:17] <jgraham> beowulf: Yeah, I think that works poorly in markup though
  447. # [12:17] <beowulf> yeah
  448. # [12:18] <jgraham> On an entirely diffferent topic, can anyone explain contentEditable to me? Does it ever change the innerHTML of the contentEditable element?
  449. # [12:18] <jgraham> It doesn't seem to in the live dom viewer...
  450. # [12:18] <beowulf> jgraham: in ie yes
  451. # [12:18] <beowulf> anything that matches foo@bar will become a link
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  453. # [12:19] <jgraham> Hmm, the spec suggests that it should change the innerHTML
  454. # [12:20] <beowulf> and maybe other link like text too, but i know it happens with email like text
  455. # [12:20] <jgraham> Hard to see how it would work otherwise, really
  456. # [12:21] * jgraham gets something working a little
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  458. # [12:25] <benschwarz> jgraham: hi :)
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  464. # [12:28] <jdeisenberg> is there a good way to get the text ascent and descent from a context2d? It would help greatly in positioning text vertically.
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  466. # [12:34] <Philip`> jdeisenberg: There isn't any way
  467. # [12:35] <annevk> jgraham, just press ctrl+b or some such
  468. # [12:35] <annevk> jgraham, contenteditable is very much live
  469. # [12:35] <annevk> jgraham, e.g. http://annevankesteren.nl/test/contenteditable-style.htm :)
  470. # [12:35] <jgraham> annevk: Right. I am just having cross-browser issues and weird behaviour
  471. # [12:36] <jgraham> trying to script it
  472. # [12:36] <jdeisenberg> Philip` : that is unfortunate, wouldn't you say?
  473. # [12:36] <jgraham> benschwarz: hi
  474. # [12:36] <annevk> jgraham, ah yeah, it does not really work that well
  475. # [12:37] * jgraham now has a testcase that fails to reproduce the original bug :(
  476. # [12:37] <benschwarz> jgraham: I'm the whatwg styles dude…
  477. # [12:38] <jdeisenberg> is there a compelling reason to not expose the font ascent & descent?
  478. # [12:38] <jgraham> benschwarz: Yeah. Is this re: the request for a prettier implementor spec?
  479. # [12:39] <Philip`> jdeisenberg: Yeah - probably extra fields will be added to TextMetrics, but the plan was to wait until browsers had better support for all the current features before adding even more, I think
  480. # [12:39] <benschwarz> jgraham: I saw you talking to paul_irish, I was more just saying whatup than anything else
  481. # [12:39] <Philip`> jdeisenberg: I don't think there's a reason to not expose it, except for the usual complexity involved with adding features and the desire not to do too much at once
  482. # [12:40] <jdeisenberg> ah OK. I am attempting to write a game in HTML5 using canvas, and positioning text gets a bit tricky.
  483. # [12:40] <benschwarz> jgraham: but basically, I want to get the developer spec further along, then—totally
  484. # [12:40] <jdeisenberg> For now, I'll just figure out the ascent by hand and hard-code it.
  485. # [12:40] <jgraham> benschwarz: Great :)
  486. # [12:41] <Philip`> jdeisenberg: If you need more vertical control than textBaseline gives, hardcoding sizes is the only way
  487. # [12:44] <jdeisenberg> yeah, that seems to be it.
  488. # [12:44] <jdeisenberg> OK thanks.
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  494. # [13:03] <hsivonen> the html5lib sanitizer hasn't had its white lists updated in a long time
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  496. # [13:03] <hsivonen> event-source and m are allowed. mark and track aren't.
  497. # [13:04] <hsivonen> the MathML and SVG element whitelists look suspiciously short
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  501. # [13:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Correct
  502. # [13:09] <jgraham> (that it hasn't been updated for a long time)
  503. # [13:10] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: something I could look at? I didnt understand the context of your comment)
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  505. # [13:11] <david_carlisle> (I don't mind if the answer is no:-)
  506. # [13:11] <jgraham> david_carlisle: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/html5lib/sanitizer.py?r=0f459d1384d64e579fa9a3887cd5a9bf94f497f1
  507. # [13:13] <david_carlisle> jgraham: this is sanitize as in make safe for comment input etc?
  508. # [13:14] <jgraham> david_carlisle: Yes
  509. # [13:14] <david_carlisle> ta
  510. # [13:14] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the context is that I'm gathering requirements for the HTML sanitizer for Firefox 4.next
  511. # [13:15] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: we want to allow safe MathML, so I will need a whitelist of safe MathML elements
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  514. # [13:18] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: just looking over list by eye, if its immediate use is firefox then you don't want mml3 elements yet so I'll hold back on that comment, you should perhaps allow href as well as xlink:href (depending on outcome of that open mozilla bug) oh menclose is missing from the elements
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  517. # [13:19] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: it's unclear to me if I should want to drop mml3 presentation elements or any semantic elements
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  522. # [13:21] <hsivonen> the html5lib white lists have odd stuff. e.g. attributes ch and pqg for HTML
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  525. # [13:25] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: well yes mathml doesn't include anything like script so pretty much any of it is safe, just some of it doesn't work in some browsers, so it depends what the intention behind the whitelist is. I wouldn't argue too much if firefox whitelist just presentation mathml2 and so by implication blacklisted content mathml and all of mathml3 new stuff, if it is just restricting things like form input, rather than restricting what's in the body of
  526. # [13:25] <david_carlisle> the page., on the other hand if you allow all of mathml3 presentation and content then I don't think that is unsafe?
  527. # [13:25] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: can MathML do form input?
  528. # [13:25] <david_carlisle> no
  529. # [13:26] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the goal for Firefox is to drop stuff that's not safe to transfer across an Origin boundary
  530. # [13:26] <david_carlisle> people often request it, but now the idea would be to use mtext containing an html form element (and pray it works:-0
  531. # [13:27] <david_carlisle> the only mathml element that can do anything interesting (other than displaying interesting characters in intersting layouts) is maction
  532. # [13:27] <david_carlisle> whose behaviour is largely implementation defined
  533. # [13:28] <hsivonen> "implemetation defined" always sounds bad for Web specs
  534. # [13:28] <david_carlisle> :-)
  535. # [13:28] <david_carlisle> I only said that to wind you up
  536. # [13:29] <david_carlisle> to add to the pain, i'll mention that the implementation behaviour is thus controlled by namespaced attributes in a vendor namespace
  537. # [13:29] <zcorpan> in my impl, <maction> sends an email to david_carlisle with viagra spam
  538. # [13:29] <david_carlisle> oh please, i hope it's not too expensive
  539. # [13:29] <hsivonen> is <maction actiontype="input"> like contenteditable?
  540. # [13:30] <david_carlisle> I'd have to check what firefox makes of it, but to be honest if you wanted to not worry about it i'd zap maction
  541. # [13:30] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the four built-in maction actiontypes look harmless enough
  542. # [13:30] <david_carlisle> yes
  543. # [13:31] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: vendor-namespace stuff is not going to be allowed
  544. # [13:31] <hsivonen> by the sanitizer
  545. # [13:31] <david_carlisle> OK then you should be OK
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  547. # [13:32] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: does MathML have attributes whose content is passed to a CSS parser?
  548. # [13:34] <david_carlisle> not by definition, but some parts of the mathml implementation work internally by the browser applying a css stylesheet matching certain attribute values (I think)
  549. # [13:34] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: ok. thanks
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  552. # [13:35] <david_carlisle> if you go <mi mathcolor="...."> the .... is a css compatible color so "red" or #123456 or something, but whether it actually goes through the css parser you are in a better position to check
  553. # [13:35] <hsivonen> btw, the main reason I can think of against white listing Semantic MathML is code footprint, since there's no other reason for the product to contain the names of Semantic MathML elements (as long as rendering isn't supported)
  554. # [13:35] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I'm mostly worried about stuff that can use the CSS url(...) expression
  555. # [13:35] <david_carlisle> yeas as i say. I don't think it would be unreasonable for firefox to restrict to what works as well as what is safe
  556. # [13:36] <david_carlisle> no only colours and lengths have any resemblance to css
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  558. # [13:37] <hsivonen> ok
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  562. # [13:44] <hsivonen> The requirement doc is https://wiki.mozilla.org/Platform/HTML5_sanitizer
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  583. # [14:47] <hsivonen> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Platform/HTML5_sanitizer
  584. # [14:47] <hsivonen> does anyone see defects in that requirement list?
  585. # [14:48] <hsivonen> in particular, are there any wishlist items for using the parser outside Gecko that aren't covered?
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  589. # [15:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh well, even Microdata is too hard for Google: http://www.google.com/sidewiki/entry/philip.jagenstedt/id/fJs_CWCuHHLWa1MkT8EEIpkK3qQ
  590. # [15:03] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: as we just discussed I think the choice to restrict mathml (and presumably svg) to the subset that works is general, but the exact list of what works is gecko-specific of course, which affects the 2nd "open qn" on that page
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  597. # [15:38] <annevk> hsivonen, roc says whitelists are hard for copy & paste of Word
  598. # [15:38] <annevk> hsivonen, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JanMar/0004.html
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  600. # [15:43] <annevk> hsivonen, also, if we are going to offer native sanitizing the more options the more brittle it becomes (and harder to use)
  601. # [15:46] <Philip`> If you offer fewer options than people want to use, they'll use non-native possibly-poor-quality alternatives that do provide the options
  602. # [15:47] <hsivonen> annevk: for sanitizing CSS, I was planning on using the same code the Gecko uses now, so the new code should be no worse and no better than the old code as far as -mso- CSS goes
  603. # [15:47] <annevk> Philip`, that is not a given
  604. # [15:48] <hsivonen> annevk: Gecko already not only offers but forces a native sanitizer upon pasting into contenteditable.
  605. # [15:48] <annevk> Philip`, e.g. <input> does not give everything everyone wants either, but this does not make people resort to contenteditable= or custom code directly
  606. # [15:49] <annevk> hsivonen, hmm, yay for interop?
  607. # [15:50] <jgraham> annevk: Yes it does. See also: the number of custom date pickers
  608. # [15:51] <hsivonen> annevk: how do other browsers deal with cross-origin copy and paste?
  609. # [15:53] <hsivonen> lolz. it looks like I believed in metadata in the 1990s. check out the source of http://hsivonen.iki.fi/refl-light/
  610. # [15:53] <annevk> jgraham, in some cases it does, yes
  611. # [15:53] <annevk> hsivonen, no idea
  612. # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen, I never looked into copy & paste, but now that you mention it Hallvord does have some notes on it already so maybe everyone does it to some extent
  613. # [15:54] <annevk> hsivonen, Dublin Core! superimportant
  614. # [15:55] <annevk> hsivonen, I remember having similar amounts of metadata and wondering what more I could add
  615. # [15:55] <annevk> <meta name="DC.Language" scheme="RFC1766" content="en"> -- nice :)
  616. # [15:55] <annevk> for when <html lang=en> is not clear enough
  617. # [15:56] <hsivonen> I also have lang=en!
  618. # [15:56] <hsivonen> curiously, I must have updated that metadata some time in the 2000s, because it has the iki.fi email address in it
  619. # [15:57] <jgraham> global S&R?
  620. # [15:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe
  621. # [15:59] <hsivonen> even though I never jumped on the XHTML-as-text/html bandwagon, it looks like I've done some DC bandwagon jumping on the gurus' sayso
  622. # [15:59] <Philip`> If you don't know when you changed the file, you should have added more metadata to preserve that history information
  623. # [16:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: good point! I need metadata for metadata.
  624. # [16:01] <hsivonen> cool. font tags in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/source/reflect.html
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  630. # [16:11] <jgraham> Is there some way I can't thinki of right now to run some code in the context of a different (same-origin) window?
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  632. # [16:11] <jgraham> Well s/window/nested browsing context/
  633. # [16:11] <jgraham> or whatever the right term for "document loaded in an iframe" is
  634. # [16:11] <jgraham> Without changing the DOM of that document
  635. # [16:14] <annevk> you could declare functions in that document and execute them
  636. # [16:14] <annevk> depends a bit on what you mean with context
  637. # [16:15] <jgraham> I mean with the global object being the window object of that iframe
  638. # [16:15] <jgraham> Just running functions in the iframe might work, I guess
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  640. # [16:16] <annevk> you can do iframewindow.test = ... and then iframewindow.test(), no?
  641. # [16:17] <zcorpan> window[0].foo() seems to work
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  643. # [16:20] <zcorpan> but if foo is declared in the outer document then the scope is the outer document, at least in opera
  644. # [16:21] * annevk wonders if ... = iframewindow.function() { ... }
  645. # [16:21] * annevk ... works
  646. # [16:21] <jgraham> function is a keyword, not a variable
  647. # [16:21] <jgraham> So that shouldn't work
  648. # [16:22] <jgraham> Also, my initial solution, that I didn't expect to work, of doing eval.call(iframewindow, code) also doesn't work
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  656. # [17:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: what happens if you call setTimeout on another window?
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  658. # [17:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: Won't that be like a direct function call on the other window?
  659. # [17:07] <jgraham> At least I assume
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  666. # [17:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh. right. yes
  667. # [17:22] <hsivonen> eww. the style sheet of my site looks bad in Opera 11 on Linux. I wonder what has gone wrong.
  668. # [17:23] <hsivonen> also, what's the deal with the loop attribute on <video> not working in Firefox?
  669. # [17:24] <hsivonen> simply not implemented yet: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449157
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  673. # [17:30] <adactio> Is anyone here working on WebKit/Safari/Chrome?
  674. # [17:32] <Rik`> adactio: "don't ask to ask" :)
  675. # [17:32] <adactio> Um.. okay. I guess I'll just go ahead and um, "ask" then...
  676. # [17:33] <adactio> Why is it that WebKit gives the datalist special treatment in its html.css file by declaring display: none ...despite the fact that datalist is otherwise an unknown element as far as the browser is concerned?
  677. # [17:34] <Rik`> ah, I don't know why but it's been bugging me a lot
  678. # [17:35] <adactio> I was about to file a bug in the WebKit Bugzilla but I wanted to sanity-check first that there wasn't a good reason for that CSS declaration.
  679. # [17:35] <Rik`> it makes it almost unusable in Firefox and Opera because of that
  680. # [17:35] <Rik`> adactio: my understanding is that datalist implementation in webkit has various patches and some landed
  681. # [17:36] <adactio> So it's because we're in a period of transition that we've got what's kinda the worst of both worlds; no support, but no fallback either.
  682. # [17:36] <Rik`> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27247
  683. # [17:36] <Rik`> this is the master bug for this
  684. # [17:37] <adactio> I should add my concerns there?
  685. # [17:37] <Evet> what is your favourite cross-domain user auth method?
  686. # [17:38] <Rik`> adactio: I think you should file a bug with a small testcase and set it as blocking bug 27427
  687. # [17:38] <adactio> Okay. Will do.
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  690. # [17:40] <Rik`> adactio: please cc me (rik@webkit.org)
  691. # [17:40] <Rik`> I won't be able to help but I'd like to follow the subject
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  693. # [17:48] <Rik`> adactio: apparently the datalist implementation is hidden behind a config flag
  694. # [17:48] <Rik`> all code related to that should be disabled but the CSS style in html.css is not behind a flag
  695. # [17:48] <Rik`> https://trac.webkit.org/changeset/47420
  696. # [17:49] <adactio> Ah, right! (damn: I just posted my bug)
  697. # [17:50] <Rik`> adactio: bug number ?
  698. # [17:50] <adactio> 52214
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  701. # [18:00] <Rik`> adactio: thanks, I should have filed this bug when playing with this
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  740. # [19:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: that's something the rich snippets team keep telling me that i should change in the spec, so maybe it's just them leading by implementation
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  742. # [19:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I see
  743. # [19:27] <Hixie> (assuming you mean the content=""-on-everything thing)
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  745. # [19:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: that's what I meant
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  773. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure I really understand what @content-on-everything is for, anyway.
  774. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> It seems better to make it obvious that you're embedding invisible data via a <meta>, personally.
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  778. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, but invisible data causes unicorns to be born
  779. # [20:20] <Hixie> TabAtkins: agreed
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  781. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Plus, @content-on-everything is, on first sight, ambiguous when it appears on something which already takes its value from an attribute, like <a>.
  782. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> So, yeah, remove away.
  783. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Should I file a bug?
  784. # [20:25] <Hixie> anyone know what http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11572 is about?
  785. # [20:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: internally, on the docs? sure
  786. # [20:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: cc me?
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  788. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I'm assuming the "Watch for updates" widget
  789. # [20:28] <Hixie> yeah but what does he want to have happen?
  790. # [20:28] <Hixie> i don't understand his request
  791. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Me neither
  792. # [20:29] * Ms2ger verifies
  793. # [20:29] <Hixie> heh
  794. # [20:31] <Hixie> how abotu http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11574 ?
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  799. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Nope, another nonsense bug.
  800. # [20:40] <Hixie> k
  801. # [20:40] <Hixie> just making sure i'm not missing something :-)
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  813. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Bug filed, you're cc'd.
  814. # [20:53] <Hixie> ta
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  818. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: How long does the publishing pipeline take for whatwg.org? I'm getting a persistent message that I'm on r5747.
  819. # [20:57] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@rrcs-24-206-36-125.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  820. # [20:57] <Hixie> full-page or multipage?
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  822. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> /C
  823. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> Also, I just discovered an irssi shortcut, dammit.
  824. # [20:58] <Hixie> dunno, it's however long Philip`'s server takes to send a reply
  825. # [20:58] <Hixie> sometimes things get backed up
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  827. # [20:58] <Hixie> use the single-page copy :-)
  828. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> If I had it up constantly, I probably would. But for pulling up multiple times over the course of a day, single-page is too slow to load.
  829. # [21:00] <Hixie> ah
  830. # [21:00] <Hixie> yeah
  831. # [21:00] <Hixie> leave it open :-P
  832. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> Bah.
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  834. # [21:03] <Hixie> i have a bunch of tabs open... gmail, corp gmail, calendar, the spec...
  835. # [21:04] <mpilgrim> obviously the spec needs an in-page autoupdate mechanism so we can keep it open all the time and have it bring itself up to date automatically
  836. # [21:05] <Hixie> i had that
  837. # [21:05] <Hixie> but having a 5mb doc reload itself every 90 seconds is pretty painful :-)
  838. # [21:05] <Hixie> so now it just has an alert
  839. # [21:05] <Hixie> and lets you reload it manually
  840. # [21:06] <mpilgrim> something more sophisticated than window.refresh()
  841. # [21:06] <Hixie> (and the alert is a bit broken for the multipage copy because it checks the single-page rev, not the multipage one)
  842. # [21:06] <Hixie> ah
  843. # [21:06] <Hixie> that would be neat
  844. # [21:06] <Hixie> well
  845. # [21:06] <Hixie> patches welcome!
  846. # [21:06] <mpilgrim> lol
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  848. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> mpilgrim, looks like you've got outstanding feedback on Google's audio/video tests, any plans to address?
  849. # [21:15] <mpilgrim> coming this week
  850. # [21:15] <Hixie> man, suggesting that <device> should support usb and rs232 has sure hit a nerve
  851. # [21:16] <Hixie> that one note in the spec (which is only in the whatwg copy) has received at least 3 separate bugs voicing support for the dea
  852. # [21:16] <Hixie> idea
  853. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> Excellent
  854. # [21:19] <webr3> are the specs aligned enough to make an html and js application, then wrap it up and deploy as an extension which works in even a coupel of browsers (lke widget specs for isntance) ?
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  856. # [21:19] <Hixie> which specs?
  857. # [21:20] <webr3> warp digital signatures and the like i guess - just anything that's interop between the browsers
  858. # [21:21] <Hixie> oh, widget specs?
  859. # [21:22] <webr3> just any specs that would allow you to create a web app in html + js (and related specs) then wrap it up and run it as an extension in anybrowser - kudos++ if it can run in main browser context
  860. # [21:23] <Hixie> web apps and extensions seem like unrelated concepts, i don't really understand
  861. # [21:23] <Hixie> an extension is something that can manipulate the browser or the page loaded in the browser,
  862. # [21:24] <Hixie> but a web page is something that a browser runs that can't affect the browser
  863. # [21:24] <Hixie> no?
  864. # [21:25] <webr3> depends hwo you're looking at it, on the other hand, an extension is something somebody can install and then trust to access the web, and given cors etc you can't do this w/ a normal js app, so people are forced to move in to creating extensions..
  865. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> Most Chrome extensions are mostly just web pages with access to some extra functions, aren't they?
  866. # [21:25] <webr3> just so they can make an app which can access the web..
  867. # [21:26] <webr3> AryehGregor, exactly - they are - and half the time the extra functions aren't wanted or required - there are many that just need the "can access the web" status
  868. # [21:27] <webr3> basically, every extension which doesn't extend the browser but is rather just an app w/ advanced permissions
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  870. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> There's work in this direction, but nothing that multiple browsers actually implement yet, as far as I can see.
  871. # [21:30] <webr3> indeed - I raised on webapps and device-apis a few times but haven't refined down the "use-cases" yet to something v convincing - even though many have asked
  872. # [21:31] <TabAtkins> Yay, Chrome's dropping h.264!
  873. # [21:32] <miketaylr> just saw that
  874. # [21:34] <Ms2ger> (http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html)
  875. # [21:37] <Hixie> there's something silly about me resolving bugs i filed with "Rationale: concurred with reporter's comments"
  876. # [21:37] * othermaciej wonders if WebM will ever be submitted to a standards process
  877. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Heh.
  878. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Very interesting.
  879. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I've been thinking that too
  880. # [21:38] <Hixie> Ms2ger: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11051 - i removed them, but this leaves holes in the numbers, is that right?
  881. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> This means H.264 is no longer a serious contender, even if Firefox loses a lot of market share.
  882. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I always thought it was amusing.
  883. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> I was thinking make DATA_CLONE_ERR 24
  884. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, what I wonder is whether Google will actually ever license its patents for anything other than using its exact implementation.
  885. # [21:39] <Hixie> does anyone implement DATA_CLONE_ERR yet?
  886. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> Fx
  887. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Because it hasn't.
  888. # [21:39] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: orly
  889. # [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: let's just leave it as is then
  890. # [21:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: we can fill the holes later
  891. # [21:39] <Ms2ger> I've already changed it once, I can do it again ;)
  892. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, http://www.webmproject.org/about/faq/#what_if_someone_makes_a_change_to_the_code_and_gives_it_to_me_do_i_have_a_patent_license_from_google_for_that_change
  893. # [21:40] <Hixie> Ms2ger: from what i hear, long-term heycam has a plan to make these numbers academic instead
  894. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> But I was thinking the same thing earlier today, actually
  895. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> That's how I'm reading it.
  896. # [21:40] <Hixie> Ms2ger: s/instead/anyway/
  897. # [21:40] <Hixie> not sure where "instead" came from
  898. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/
  899. # [21:40] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: that addresses the issue of patent licenses on random changes to the code - it doesn't really address independent reimplementation
  900. # [21:40] <othermaciej> which is IMO the interesting question
  901. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> "Google hereby grants to you a . . . patent license to make, have made, use [etc.] . . . the contents of this implementation of VP8 . . ."
  902. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> With a class per exception? That sounded a little bloated to me
  903. # [21:41] <othermaciej> that license does say "this implementation"
  904. # [21:41] <othermaciej> is there any separate patent grant?
  905. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> Not that I'm aware of.
  906. # [21:41] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yeah i dunno how he'll do it
  907. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Nobody seems to have publicized this point much, that I've seen.
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  909. # [21:42] <heycam> I think my mail to public-script-coord had most of the pertinent details
  910. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> Anyway, keep the hole for now
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  912. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should submit a Slashdot story, that often works to get people's attention.
  913. # [21:42] <heycam> Ms2ger, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2010OctDec/0112.html
  914. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Or maybe I should post to some Mozilla list asking why they're going along with it.
  915. # [21:43] <Hixie> oh dear, i reached http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11067
  916. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> I've definitely seen someone from Mozilla post to www-font saying that even field-of-use restrictions on patent licenses are unacceptable to them.
  917. # [21:43] <Hixie> is annevk around?
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  928. # [21:43] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I wonder if the independently implemented WebM decoder is technically liable for patent infringement
  929. # [21:43] <Ms2ger> Hixie, shall I add a random comment? :)
  930. # [21:43] * Quits: jmb (~jmb@mail.parsifal.org.uk) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  931. # [21:43] <othermaciej> (ffvp8)
  932. # [21:44] <Hixie> Ms2ger: hah
  933. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> I can't see why not.
  934. # [21:44] <othermaciej> that is a surprisingly poor patent situation
  935. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> It's exactly what gave rise to Oracle's current lawsuit against Google, isn't it? They reimplemented Java when the patent grant only covered the original implementation.
  936. # [21:44] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  937. # [21:45] <othermaciej> it's potentially a similar situation, yeah
  938. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> I'll just touch all bugs that I didn't file :)
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  940. # [21:45] <Hixie> Ms2ger: then i'll just increase the priority on all your bugs... :-P
  941. # [21:45] <othermaciej> I'm concerned more from the practical aspect of "could Apple legally ship an independent reimplementation of WebM as part of QuickTime"
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  951. # [21:46] <othermaciej> it sounds like that would not be safe, even if we were confident that the only applicable patents are held by Google
  952. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> Increase or decrease? Because increasing is fine with me ;)
  953. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Well, you'd think that if Apple wanted to do that, they could talk to Google about it and get a special patent grant, if nothing else.
  954. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> My impression is there are other problems that prevent Apple and Microsoft from signing on.
  955. # [21:47] <Hixie> Ms2ger: either way, it touches the bug's change time :-P
  956. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> I'll need to reverse engineer your sorting algorithm to be sure whether your suggestion would help me
  957. # [21:49] <Hixie> my sorting algorithm is just sort-by-change-time-ascending
  958. # [21:49] <Hixie> click "Bugs" on damowmow.com/portal (under the column arbitrarily titled "Weekly") to see the list i use
  959. # [21:50] <Hixie> in the order i use it
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  961. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> Oh, and input.selectionStart is still yours
  962. # [21:53] <Hixie> oops
  963. # [21:53] <Hixie> did you reassign it back?
  964. # [21:53] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  965. # [21:54] <Hixie> thanks
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  969. # [22:03] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I doubt there would be much enthusiasm for negotiating a one-off patent license - that's one thing that going through a standards process would help with
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  973. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> It would certainly make sense to make a standard out of it.
  974. # [22:06] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@216.239.45.19) (Quit: abarth)
  975. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> Just for appearances' sake, if nothing else.
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  977. # [22:08] <annevk> Hixie, am now for a few minutes
  978. # [22:11] <Hixie> i fixed your formdata thing
  979. # [22:11] <Hixie> commented in the bug on how to use it
  980. # [22:12] <annevk> yay
  981. # [22:12] <annevk> kudos on Chrome for dropping H264
  982. # [22:13] <annevk> I cannot help but wonder if it was for legal reasons (those that were raised initially and dismissed)
  983. # [22:13] <annevk> but either way it rocks
  984. # [22:14] <annevk> I suspect it has something to do with P2P as well
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  986. # [22:17] <Hixie> othermaciej: btw, any chance the deadlines for the four things that are past the deadline on issue-status.html could be changed? It makes it harder to check what is the next deadline to come up
  987. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> annevk, what could it have to do with P2P?
  988. # [22:19] <annevk> For P2P having one format is important
  989. # [22:20] <annevk> So not supporting H264 makes arguing for WebM easier
  990. # [22:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: also, can the deadline for -119 be pushed to after the chairs make a decision on -118? What I propose for 119 depends on the answer to 118.
  991. # [22:20] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  992. # [22:20] <othermaciej> Hixie: looking
  993. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, where exactly is the Selection stuff implemented, in Firefox? I've found the interface, but not the implementation.
  994. # [22:21] <othermaciej> I only see 3 expired items on issue-status.html at the moment
  995. # [22:21] <othermaciej> oh wait
  996. # [22:21] <othermaciej> misread the month
  997. # [22:21] <Ms2ger> Look for nsTypedSelection
  998. # [22:21] <Hixie> in other news, if any implementors care about how ;charset inside <meta content=""> is parsed, now is the time to write counter proposals for -125 and -126, I do not intend to write any myself.
  999. # [22:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: I can fix up the 4 that are marked expired
  1000. # [22:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: not sure what to do about 119; can you explain the relation to 118 to me briefly?
  1001. # [22:22] <Hixie> othermaciej: depending on how you resolve 118, there might not be an "up" relation at all, making 119 moot.
  1002. # [22:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: would there be any other likely impact other than making the issue moot?
  1003. # [22:24] <othermaciej> I wonder if abarth would care about 125 or 126
  1004. # [22:24] <othermaciej> too bad he's not here at the moment
  1005. # [22:24] <Hixie> well if you decide in leif's favour, i'd have to try to decode what leif was proposing so as to work out what impact it has on 119
  1006. # [22:24] <Hixie> the only way it would not have an effect is if you decided in favour of the status quo, as far as i can tell
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  1008. # [22:25] <Hixie> and then my change proposal for 119 would likely just be the same two CPs from 118 but with slightly different rationales...
  1009. # [22:25] <Hixie> ...which would be based on what you considered a strong argument for 118
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  1014. # [22:28] <othermaciej> I would have to ask other people to indefinitely stretch the deadline, so the options I'd suggest are: (1) just write the proposals now with the understanding that they may be rendered moot; (2) ask for a fixed extension on the mailing list (e.g. an extra month to write counter-proposals) and I'll do my best to get 118 resolved in that time period; (3) ask for it to be tabled until 118 is resolved on the malning list, in which case I can't predict the answe
  1015. # [22:28] <othermaciej> certainty
  1016. # [22:29] <Hixie> i'm not asking for an indefinite stretch, unless you're saying the date you'll resolve 118 on is itself indefinitely stretched :-)
  1017. # [22:30] <Hixie> and a fixed extension doesn't help if you still haven't resolved the other one by then
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  1020. # [22:38] <Hixie> ok well i sent an e-mail asking for an extension
  1021. # [22:38] <Hixie> if we don't get it i guess i'll just let it slide and then when we get the resolution for -118 i'll reraise it saying we have new information :-)
  1022. # [22:39] <Hixie> lunch time
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  1032. # [23:09] <annevk> At some point Mark Pilgrim made a fuss about Mozilla not doing H264 yet continuing to support Flash. I feel like pulling a Gruber but I cannot find it :/
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  1038. # [23:13] <cying> did google give any warning here about h.264?
  1039. # [23:14] <bga_> h.268 :( -> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRWare_Iron instead chromium
  1040. # [23:14] <annevk> If they did you would have known cying :)
  1041. # [23:14] <annevk> We are a public group
  1042. # [23:15] <cying> annevk: :)
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  1044. # [23:15] * karlcow has difficulty to see that as a big news, but I may miss something.
  1045. # [23:15] <cying> karlcow: how do you see it?
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  1047. # [23:16] <karlcow> they drop the support in Chrome, but if I understand it means that to play h264. there will be plug-ins? Am I right?
  1048. # [23:17] <karlcow> either flash, or plugins on the OS platforms.
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  1050. # [23:17] <cying> karlcow: well, flash would require special code path to yank the h.264 video out of the HTML5 video tag and put it in a Flash player wrapper.
  1051. # [23:18] <cying> karlcow: i see your point about other system codecs / Quicktime on the desktop
  1052. # [23:18] <cying> karlcow: but mobile video would have weaker support
  1053. # [23:18] <karlcow> indeed
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  1055. # [23:19] <karlcow> I think we do not know what is the real story behind aka the business figures
  1056. # [23:20] <karlcow> on the other hand, it might help some people to move further away of h264 and encourage to adopt other codecs.
  1057. # [23:20] <karlcow> We will see.
  1058. # [23:20] <annevk> I posted a few theories above
  1059. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Chrome doesn't support pluggable <video> formats AFAIK, I think it's hardcoded into the source.
  1060. # [23:21] <cying> it's true, but the WebM story is just really weak at the moment
  1061. # [23:21] <annevk> AryehGregor, they use ffmpeg; so if that is pluggable somehow
  1062. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> annevk, yeah, but I'm pretty sure the code that calls it is hardcoded to only allow a few formats. I once asked in #chromium-dev or something whether there was official info on what <video>/<audio> formats Chrome supported, and a dev linked me to the source code.
  1063. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> I didn't actually read the code or anything, but it looked like it involved short lists of supported formats supplied as literal arrays.
  1064. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Anyway, the status quo was that for web video you needed to encode as H.264 plus (Theora or WebM) anyway to work in the latest browsers. This doesn't change that at all.
  1065. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Except that it pretty much quashes any hope that Firefox will be won over.
  1066. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Also, it's notable because the non-WebM-supporting browsers still support WebM if you get the user to download the codec, at least on desktop. But the non-H.264-supporting browsers just don't support it period.
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  1068. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> (well, that's actually irrelevant to Google not supporting H.264, I guess, but it's notable in the broader picture)
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  1071. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Dammit, twitter HTML-unescapes one level in their messages.
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  1080. # [23:38] <cying> so much for h.264 HTML5 video demos
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  1082. # [23:39] <KrocCamen> Microsoft and Apple, sitting in a tree…
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  1084. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> I don't know why people care so much about IE/Safari's non-support of WebM. They'll still support it if the user installs the right codec, right?
  1085. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Aren't users adequately trained to install anything they're asked to if it says "You need to install this to play the video"?
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  1087. # [23:40] <KrocCamen> Flash will support WebM, minimising that necessity. Not that installing Flash isn’t torturous to begin with.
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  1090. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Ah, right.
  1091. # [23:41] <webr3> AryehGregor, there's quite a distrust w/ many users.. they're used to seeing messages like "you have a virus, click here to remove it" (which they do, just to download the virus)
  1092. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Anyway, mobile (read: iPhone) is still a problem.
  1093. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> You seem to be contradicting yourself, webr3. They can't be distrustful *and* click on the virus scanner downloads.
  1094. # [23:43] <annevk> AryehGregor, expecting end users to install codecs seems very naive
  1095. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> Well, some will.
  1096. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> It's far from ideal, of course.
  1097. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> But they only need to do it once.
  1098. # [23:45] <MikeSmith> as I understand it, at this point Safari will not support WebM for the video element even if a user does manually install it
  1099. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> I thought it supported anything QuickTime supported. Does QuickTime not support WebM?
  1100. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> I guess it does not
  1101. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> and will not
  1102. # [23:46] <KrocCamen> Not yet, because a plugin has not been made -- but it is being worked on.
  1103. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> unless they change their position oin it
  1104. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  1105. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> ah
  1106. # [23:47] <KrocCamen> Safari on the desktop will play WebM if the codec is installed, it’s iOS where it’s H.264 or nothing.
  1107. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> KrocCamen: I didn't know a third-party plugin for it is possible
  1108. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> ok
  1109. # [23:47] <KrocCamen> Have you not heard of Perian?
  1110. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> nope
  1111. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> but I don't know much about Quicktime
  1112. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> nor really about platform video stuff in general
  1113. # [23:48] <MikeSmith> I am among the unwashed masses who just expect this stuff to work
  1114. # [23:48] <karlcow> I wonder if things like Perian will be done for mac user base
  1115. # [23:48] <karlcow> http://www.perian.org/
  1116. # [23:49] <roc> Flash has announced support for VP8, not WebM
  1117. # [23:49] <karlcow> http://groups.google.com/group/perian-discuss/browse_thread/thread/e32789fc0b2b7612
  1118. # [23:50] * Joins: homat____ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  1119. # [23:50] <karlcow> http://trac.perian.org/changeset/1310
  1120. # [23:51] <jgraham> roc: How significant is the difference, in context?
  1121. # [23:51] <roc> I don't know
  1122. # [23:52] <roc> conceivably they could support VP8+AAC in some non-WebM container, thus making their support token only
  1123. # [23:52] <roc> which would make no sense
  1124. # [23:52] <roc> except that we did observe Adobe's original announcement said "WebM" and was revised to "VP8"
  1125. # [23:52] * Joins: hom______ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  1126. # [23:53] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1127. # [23:54] <jgraham> Maybe VP8 in a flash-specific container? Which would be OK if you could just switch containers without changing the video
  1128. # [23:54] <roc> I suppose that's possible but it also doesn't make a lot of sense
  1129. # [23:54] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  1130. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> Presumably they'd have to support Vorbis too for that to be useful, yes?
  1131. # [23:54] <roc> yes
  1132. # [23:55] * Quits: homat____ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1133. # [23:55] <roc> Also I'm surprised that they haven't produced any Flash build with any kind of VP8 support yet
  1134. # [23:55] <jgraham> I find nothing in the video world makes a lot of sense, so it is hard to tell the actually nutty ideas from the merely nutty-sounding
  1135. # [23:56] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.25.58) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1136. # [23:56] <MikeSmith> http://nodejs.org/old_spec/ (early spec for node from 2009)
  1137. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> with <html lang="en-US-x-hixie"> and <link href="http://www.whatwg.org/style/specification">
  1138. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> so now we can claim that node is part of HTML5!
  1139. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Yus!
  1140. # [23:58] * Quits: dglazkov (d8ef2d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.239.45.4) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  1141. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> roc, why is Mozilla shipping WebM support when the VP8 patent license doesn't cover anything other than Google's exact implementation?
  1142. # Session Close: Wed Jan 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)