/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 12 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: Aleoss112 (~AleossIRC@204.83.230.149) (Quit: We love you, Dark Continent! Good night!)
  4. # [00:02] <roc> I thought that was going to change
  5. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Well, it hasn't yet. http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/
  6. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> "this implementation of VP8"
  7. # [00:02] <roc> in any case, what we have now is much better than the alternatives
  8. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's certainly true.
  9. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> we really need to get it specced properly somewhere and published
  10. # [00:04] <roc> that is being worked on
  11. # [00:04] <roc> AryehGregor: note that the license says "patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, transfer, and otherwise run, modify and propagate the contents of this implementation of VP8"
  12. # [00:05] <roc> note "modify" there ... the license applies to modifications of Google's implementation
  13. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> That doesn't give you a license to distribute the modified version.
  14. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> The FAQ says this explicitly.
  15. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> http://www.webmproject.org/about/faq/#what_if_someone_makes_a_change_to_the_code_and_gives_it_to_me_do_i_have_a_patent_license_from_google_for_that_change
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  18. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> It sounds like maybe you have a patent license to any unmodified parts of the code, but not to the changes?
  19. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it certainly doesn't cover reimplementations.
  20. # [00:07] <roc> OK I don't understand that FAQ item in relation to that patent license, then
  21. # [00:07] <roc> however
  22. # [00:07] <roc> this license does cover reimplementations: http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/
  23. # [00:08] <Hixie> woah, firefox alert() changed
  24. # [00:08] <Hixie> pretty
  25. # [00:08] <jamesr_> is it really tab-modal?
  26. # [00:08] <roc> AryehGregor: does that satisfy you?
  27. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it behaves badly on long lines, though. It should break them, but content just becomes inaccessible instead (except by select all + copy/paste or such, I guess).
  28. # [00:09] <jamesr_> omg it is!
  29. # [00:09] <roc> jamesr_: yes
  30. # [00:09] <jamesr_> roc: what if two tabs have a script link? is it modal for both of 'em?
  31. # [00:09] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-ldjcghwftkmohuol) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  32. # [00:09] <roc> I don't know
  33. # [00:10] <jamesr_> btw that gradient renders slow as balls on my linux box so resizing sucks (minefield 4.09b9pre 2011-01-07)
  34. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> roc, hmm. That's quite confusing. But yeah, that seems like it should cover things, unless Google wants to argue about exactly what is "necessarily" infringed.
  35. # [00:10] <jamesr_> large gradients are a pain
  36. # [00:10] <roc> jamesr_: I blame your X drivers
  37. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> I don't know why they have the other license at all.
  38. # [00:10] <roc> we use XRender
  39. # [00:10] <jamesr_> ah, i have compiz off
  40. # [00:11] <roc> AryehGregor: the other license covers people who want to use Google's VP8 implementation
  41. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> Why isn't that covered by the bitstream license, though?
  42. # [00:11] <roc> since it's quite likely that there are patents covering features of Google's VP8 implementation that are not "necessary" to implementing the specification
  43. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> In case they infringe random unrelated patents, I guess.
  44. # [00:11] <roc> right
  45. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Okay, that makes sense.
  46. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> The FAQ should really be clearer, though.
  47. # [00:14] <roc> you might want to follow up on your chromium blog comment :-)
  48. # [00:14] <roc> if you can still find it
  49. # [00:14] <roc> amongst the noise
  50. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> Actually, I'll just delete it.
  51. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> Easier that way.
  52. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> (since I can't edit it, Blogger stinks that way)
  53. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> The commenters there implying Adobe paid Google to do this amuse me.
  54. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> It seems like a clear indication to me that Google will cut off Flash support too as soon as it's strategically possible (if ever).
  55. # [00:19] <gsnedders> I wonder if they will on Android
  56. # [00:19] <gsnedders> Esp. seeming their main competitor doesn't support it there.
  57. # [00:19] <gsnedders> But there again, I wonder if OEMs would just patch it back in…
  58. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> I imagine they will someday, but not until Flash is really mostly useless.
  59. # [00:21] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Quit: zcorpan)
  60. # [00:21] * AryehGregor is on the record as predicting Flash's demise in 2015 at the latest
  61. # [00:22] <KrocCamen> AryehGregor: It’s irrelevance will come much sooner.
  62. # [00:22] * gsnedders declines to make such estimates
  63. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I was being conservative.
  64. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> No point in making predictions that have a significant chance of being wrong, right?
  65. # [00:23] <gsnedders> KrocCamen: For a lot of things, it is still going to to relevant as long as people want DRM on videos. And I don't see that going away soon…
  66. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Flash uses DRM that's not broken? Because you can do broken DRM with <video> too.
  67. # [00:25] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: how?
  68. # [00:25] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.246.16.160) (Quit: estes)
  69. # [00:25] <KrocCamen> gsnedders: And what if Google implement DRM in Chrome; they have bought a video DRM company... http://www.osnews.com/story/24099/Google_buy_DRM_firm_Widevine_Solution_to_HTML5_Video_Adoption_
  70. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> For a loose definition of "DRM".
  71. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> I mean, you can make it hard for users to save the video.
  72. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> KrocCamen, not a replacement unless all the browsers agree on a DRM scheme. Plugins are more likely.
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  74. # [00:28] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Flash is a plugin, and has an installed user base.
  75. # [00:29] <roc> does iOS have any DRM support?
  76. # [00:29] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.16.160)
  77. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yes, I agree, if you want more than basic obfuscation than Flash is a likely solution.
  78. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> The iOS platform is DRM'd.
  79. # [00:29] <gsnedders> roc: Not apart from FairPlay. But you also have no way to save files.
  80. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> I mean, you can't actually modify the programs or anything.
  81. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Without jailbreaking, anyway.
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  83. # [00:30] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And most, e.g., IPTV solutions use DRM due to contractual obligations.
  84. # [00:31] <gsnedders> And that's a growing market, so we need some serious plan to move Flash there.
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  88. # [00:33] <roc> Netflix has shown quite a bit of interest in HTML5 video
  89. # [00:34] <KrocCamen> Google TV will need to implement DRM internally, there doesn’t have to be any agreement between browser vendors there.
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  91. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Now gmaxwell has e-mailed me complaining about my Chromium blog post too.
  92. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> Well, at least that confusion has been cleared up.
  93. # [00:44] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, it turns out I was wrong, there's a separate bitstream license that covers all reimplementations and modified versions: http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/
  94. # [00:44] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I guess that covers anything that supports the exact bitstream in the spec
  95. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> I guess, yeah.
  96. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> But it's comparable to many other such patent grants, isn't it? I'm pretty sure Adobe's patent grants on PDF have similarly narrow wording.
  97. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> I imagine the MPEG-LA license does too.
  98. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> (although I haven't looked at the latter, is it even public?)
  99. # [00:46] <othermaciej> I'm having trouble finding the bitstream guide
  100. # [00:46] <othermaciej> I have no idea what the terms of the MPEG-LA license are
  101. # [00:47] <othermaciej> ah, here we go http://www.webmproject.org/code/specs/
  102. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> It looks like the H.264 license agreement is only available in hard copy: http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/AgreementExpress.aspx
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  104. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> "Adobe grants . . . the royalty-free right . . . to make, have made, use, sell, import and distribute Compliant Implementations." http://www.adobe.com/pdf/pdfs/ISO32000-1PublicPatentLicense.pdf
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  106. # [00:54] <othermaciej> yes, limiting patent grants to compliant implementations is a common set of terns for RF licensing for a standard
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  110. # [01:06] <bga_> lol http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/f0fb0/google_removing_h264_support_in_chrome/c1ccnwg
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  119. # [01:15] <jamesr_> heycam: are you around?
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  121. # [01:22] <heycam> hi jamesr_
  122. # [01:22] <jamesr_> heycam: i heard a rumor you wrote some spec text for mozRequestAnimationFrame. is that true and if so where could i find it? i have some feedback on the proposal
  123. # [01:23] <heycam> jamesr_, yeah i started writing it up. let me find it...
  124. # [01:25] <heycam> http://people.mozilla.org/~cmccormack/anim-timing/Overview.html
  125. # [01:26] <heycam> that it claims script-based and native animations can be synchronized might be a bit strong. there might've been some issues there -- but it's been a couple of months since i've looked at it, so it's swapped out of my head atm...
  126. # [01:27] <heycam> that write-up doesn't include the event-based way of doing it, only callback functions
  127. # [01:28] <jamesr_> yes, i don't think the event-based way is very useful
  128. # [01:29] <heycam> I will try to bring it a WG soon so that there can be somewhere official to send comments. but in the meantime, here is fine.
  129. # [01:30] <jamesr_> heycam: ok. i'm implementing essentially that without the timestamps
  130. # [01:30] <jamesr_> which WG will it be?
  131. # [01:30] <jamesr_> (implementing in WebKit, that is)
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  133. # [01:31] <heycam> without the timestamps? so the callback script looks up animationStartTime?
  134. # [01:32] <heycam> I did think of dropping that argument at one point; can't remember why I decided against it.
  135. # [01:32] <jamesr_> without the parameter to the callback and without window.animationStartTime
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  137. # [01:32] <jamesr_> so just void requestAnimationFrame([callback]) where callback is void sample()
  138. # [01:32] <heycam> oh. so how does the callback get accurate timing about when it's being sampled for? (or it doesn't, i guess.)
  139. # [01:33] <jamesr_> it don't :)
  140. # [01:33] <heycam> is the issue that it's never going to be really accurate, because who knows how long the script will run for
  141. # [01:33] <jamesr_> yup
  142. # [01:33] <heycam> so you may as well just let the script just look at Date() or whatever
  143. # [01:33] <jamesr_> indeed. i'm not sure that the UA can make a better guess at the time to use than the script author can
  144. # [01:33] <heycam> it might be that the script author is never going to put in the effort to determine average callback function running times
  145. # [01:34] <heycam> but that the UA could do so reasonably easily
  146. # [01:34] <heycam> so the UA still might be able to give a reasonable approximation, with a rolling average
  147. # [01:34] <jamesr_> i don't think that average callback function running time isn't a useful input
  148. # [01:34] <jamesr_> but having a callback system instead of using setTimeout() is a big improvement, so i'm still very interested in the proposal
  149. # [01:34] <heycam> right, i think that is the more important aspect of it too
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  151. # [01:35] <heycam> in SVG, you have SVGElement.getCurrentTime() (i think it is), which gives the current document time
  152. # [01:35] <heycam> (i.e. starting from 0s)
  153. # [01:35] <jamesr_> what's the relationship between that and Date.now()?
  154. # [01:35] <heycam> so at least if you wanted to sync with SVG animations, you could do something...
  155. # [01:35] <heycam> document time starts at 0 from the load event dispatch
  156. # [01:35] <heycam> and it's actually pausable
  157. # [01:36] <heycam> or pauseable
  158. # [01:36] <jamesr_> O_o
  159. # [01:36] <heycam> :)
  160. # [01:36] <heycam> that's SMIL for you
  161. # [01:36] <heycam> anyway, i doubt many people use that
  162. # [01:36] <jamesr_> no wonder SMIL has taken over the web
  163. # [01:36] <heycam> ^_^
  164. # [01:36] <jamesr_> anyway do you know what WG this would be discussed in? i want to make sure it's one i subscribe to
  165. # [01:37] <heycam> it would be good to have a mailing list conversation about the benefits or not of the callback time argument
  166. # [01:37] <heycam> to me, Web Apps seems most appropriate
  167. # [01:37] <jamesr_> yeah, i'd like for more people to weigh in
  168. # [01:37] <heycam> but they've got a pretty big charter
  169. # [01:37] <jamesr_> the last thread about this was on public-webapps
  170. # [01:37] <heycam> dunno how amenable they are to just adding things
  171. # [01:37] <heycam> oh, ok
  172. # [01:37] <jamesr_> and someone from w3c requested that public-fx be cc'd on such discussions
  173. # [01:37] <heycam> oh right, probably doug
  174. # [01:38] <heycam> i think doug was thinking that the FX TF (and thus either CSS or SVG WGs) were better than web apps
  175. # [01:38] <heycam> because it deals with animation stuff
  176. # [01:38] * heycam shrugs
  177. # [01:38] <jamesr_> yeah, but not many people are on public-fx
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  179. # [01:40] <heycam> anyway, whenever that gets decided I can let you know
  180. # [01:40] <heycam> might mail some W3C people now to get the ball rolling
  181. # [01:40] <jamesr_> cool
  182. # [01:41] <jamesr_> i'm on public-webapps and public-fx so i should see any emails you send to one/both of those and will reply with feedback
  183. # [01:41] <heycam> ok, great
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  185. # [01:41] <jamesr_> and will probably have a webkit-prefixed implementation to play with by that time as well
  186. # [01:42] <heycam> nice!
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  197. # [02:08] <MikeSmith> http://emobile.jp/products/hw/s31hw/
  198. # [02:08] <MikeSmith> Android handset that doubles as a 7.2Mbps wifi router
  199. # [02:10] <MikeSmith> creates access point that up to 5 devices can connect to at same time
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  202. # [02:17] <nattokirai> 4
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  206. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> I just figured out yesterday, after spending several days refusing to buy the expensive wifi at a hotel, that my phone can become a wifi router.
  207. # [02:21] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  208. # [02:23] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  210. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what sort of tests do you want for <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10624>? Manual tests that ask the user to make backwards selections? Tests of the whole anchorNode/anchorOffset/focusNode/focusOffset functionality, even the parts I didn't touch?
  211. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> It seems like it can't be programmatically tested without support for extend().
  212. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> (in which case manual tests would still be desirable to check that it actually creates the expected selections when the user clicks and drags forwards or backwards, and those could be automated if we had a way to synthesize clicks or keypresses)
  213. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> Bwahaha, from @atopal: "Hilarious: people are threatening to switch to Firefox because of Goole's H.264 move."
  214. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> lol.
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  217. # [02:34] <roc> jamesr_, heycam: the animationStartTime is also useful for keeping multiple JS animations in sync
  218. # [02:35] <roc> having all animations able to use the same time value seems useful even if we don't know exactly when the final frame will be presented
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  221. # [02:37] <roc> jamesr_: actually I'd be disappointed if webkitRequestAnimationFrame doesn't support webkitAnimationTime or something like that from the beginning
  222. # [02:37] <roc> because if you don't, then we'll never be able to do it
  223. # [02:38] <jamesr_> roc: i think if you have multiple JS animations you want to keep in sync you would update them all in the same callback
  224. # [02:38] <roc> but you might be using different libraries
  225. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: really? which phone?
  226. # [02:38] <roc> or have imported multiple scripts
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  228. # [02:39] <jamesr_> but if they use Date.now() then it should still work
  229. # [02:39] <roc> no because multiple calls to Date.now() will return different results
  230. # [02:39] <jamesr_> ah, true
  231. # [02:39] <heycam> if you have written all the different callbacks, you can coordinate this saved animation frame time somewhere
  232. # [02:39] <jamesr_> so the problem with animationTime is that it's not useful for 'native' animations
  233. # [02:39] <heycam> but i guess it's just if you have independent scripts that it matters
  234. # [02:40] <jamesr_> you can set something on the window yourself, i suppose
  235. # [02:40] <roc> jamesr_: yes it is
  236. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Nexus S.
  237. # [02:40] <jamesr_> i don't think it is in our impl
  238. # [02:40] <roc> heycam: coordinating a single saved animation time with multiple callbacks is pretty hard
  239. # [02:40] <roc> jamesr_: it wasn't hard in our implementation
  240. # [02:41] <roc> why would it be hard in yours?
  241. # [02:41] <heycam> roc, hmm you would need to know which is the "first" callback, so that it could store the current time?
  242. # [02:41] <roc> right
  243. # [02:41] <roc> and there is no way to know that
  244. # [02:41] <jamesr_> roc: i actually implemented it
  245. # [02:41] <jamesr_> but the behavior wasn't what we wanted
  246. # [02:41] <roc> can you explain in more detail?
  247. # [02:41] <jamesr_> i can probably explain better in long form (i.e. email)
  248. # [02:41] <jamesr_> busy atm
  249. # [02:42] <roc> that'd be great
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  252. # [02:49] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah i'd go for a lot of manual tests
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  254. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> seems that changes are still being made for ES 5.1 https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es5-discuss/2011-January/003882.html
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  271. # [03:32] <Sirisian> Is Ian Fette here?
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  273. # [03:36] <jamesr_> nope
  274. # [03:38] <Sirisian> darn. He's the WebSocket editor. Been wondering why there's no binary protocol yet after all this time. IRC stalking is hard :\
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  278. # [03:42] <hober> it's after ordinary (Pacific Time) business hours; don't be surprised that Googlers aren't around
  279. # [03:43] <Sirisian> Yeah
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  281. # [03:49] <Sirisian> hober, do you know what name he uses?
  282. # [03:49] <Sirisian> So I can recognize him when he joins
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  284. # [03:49] <Hixie> ianfette, but try #chromium instead, he's more often there i believe
  285. # [03:49] <Sirisian> I just joined there
  286. # [03:50] <Sirisian> oh I see that's the name he uses
  287. # [03:50] * Sirisian plays the waiting game
  288. # [03:51] <Sirisian> oddly enough I built an IRC bot a long time ago that alerts me when a person joins IRC. I could probably use it for this occasion :/
  289. # [03:52] <heycam> Sirisian, irc clients often have that functionality built in. try "/notify ianfette".
  290. # [03:54] <jamesr_> you could email
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  292. # [03:54] <Sirisian> someone just said that
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  294. # [03:57] <cutepy> hi, my i have a project to create a document sharing system. I would like to know how to convert pdf files uploaded by users to html
  295. # [04:00] <heycam> cutepy, you might try http://code.google.com/p/wkhtmltopdf/ or http://princexml.com/
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  302. # [04:06] <cutepy> does any one know how to convert pdf to html 5 using HTML5Lib
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  364. # [08:12] <hsivonen> AryehGregor, othermaciej: I believe the patent grant you want is http://www.webmproject.org/license/bitstream/
  365. # [08:13] <othermaciej> hsivonen: a link to that was posted earlier; thanks for mentioning it again
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  369. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> this looks like a rare event
  370. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> *this looks like one of those rare conferences that might actually be worth going out of one's way to attend:
  371. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> http://www.wikicfp.com/cfp/servlet/event.showcfp?eventid=12537&copyownerid=9119
  372. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> maybe
  373. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> by way of Allen Wirfs-Brock blog: http://www.wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/57
  374. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> Portland
  375. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> that and http://splashcon.org/2011/cfp/due-april-08-2011/101-wavefront
  376. # [08:30] <MikeSmith> ACM Splash Wavefront
  377. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> actually the Wavefront one looks even more interesting
  378. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> "The Wavefront program is looking for submissions about real systems from working software developers, not only academic researchers."
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  381. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> program commitee: Allen Wirfs-Brock, Alex Russell, Brendan Eich, Dean Tribble, Douglas Crockford, Ward Cunningham
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  389. # [09:14] * MikeSmith now notices that Adam Barth and Collin Jackson on the program committee for USENIX WebApps conference
  390. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> http://www.usenix.org/events/webapps11/cfp/
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  410. # [09:51] <annevk> a search for roc does not give me his blog
  411. # [09:51] <annevk> waddup Google?
  412. # [09:52] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  413. # [09:52] <annevk> someone else found the Mark Pilgrim quote: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/03/amor_robustum.html
  414. # [09:53] <annevk> wait no, that's not the quote
  415. # [09:53] <annevk> damnit
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  420. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> yippee
  421. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> Henri landed my patch to the htmlparser code in mozilla-central
  422. # [10:07] <annevk> W3C is contributing code to Mozilla?
  423. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> for the track element
  424. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> well, I am
  425. # [10:07] <annevk> omg so biased
  426. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> heh
  427. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to contribute code to Opera as well
  428. # [10:08] <annevk> :)
  429. # [10:08] <kennyluck> hah. I am biased towards Mozilla too.
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  431. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> this one was a really minor "contribution"
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  433. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> simple patch
  434. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> but hey, it's a start
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  437. # [10:10] <annevk> finally I found it
  438. # [10:10] <annevk> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100318#l-65
  439. # [10:10] <annevk> some OCD right there
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  443. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> Peter`: I thought fullscreen had already been implemented in Gecko
  444. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> btw, just found out about this today:
  445. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> https://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Jgoulie
  446. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> IAP HTML5 Game Programming Course and Competition
  447. # [10:14] <Ms2ger> Oh, Opera's implementing CSS gradients too? Cool
  448. # [10:15] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/846/ hahaha the tooltip-text song
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  450. # [10:15] <annevk> Ms2ger, yeah
  451. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> course at MIT this week featuring Boris Zbarsky, Dave Herman, Chris Heilmann, more
  452. # [10:16] <annevk> Ms2ger, I tweeted about that somewhere last year
  453. # [10:16] <annevk> MikeSmith, wow
  454. # [10:16] <Ms2ger> Heh
  455. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  456. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> they didn't advertise it very well
  457. # [10:17] <annevk> not even a blogpost at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/bz/
  458. # [10:17] <Ms2ger> Twitter is pretty much the last thing I get to, if I ever get to it
  459. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> hopefully they'll do it again (or something similar) soon
  460. # [10:20] <annevk> so many great quotes hidden in the IRC logs
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  462. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> I wonder if that course was free
  463. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> if it was, that's pretty amazing
  464. # [10:21] <annevk> maybe rather than just highlighting we should have reddit-style +/- for lines
  465. # [10:21] <Rik`> Ms2ger: link for Opera gradients ?
  466. # [10:21] <annevk> and then some way to aggregate all the ones with lots of attention
  467. # [10:21] <Rik`> MikeSmith: I think the course was not well advertised because it has been decided very recently
  468. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> Rik`: I see
  469. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> would be good to do it again
  470. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.vo55l8rnbbdj5y@probook.oslo.osa
  471. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> I guess they have limited space though
  472. # [10:24] <Rik`> yeah for gradients \o/
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  474. # [10:30] <annevk> Ms2ger, http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html is up to date too now
  475. # [10:30] <annevk> Ms2ger, seems bitbucket fixed the issue
  476. # [10:32] <annevk> do people still want an Atom feed for HTML5 changes?
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  478. # [10:32] <Ms2ger> It only worked once a day, IIRC
  479. # [10:32] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  480. # [10:32] <annevk> it should always just work, the problem was that the copy on bitbucket I was fetching was not always updated
  481. # [10:33] <annevk> I was thinking the other day that it would be pretty easy to generate an Atom feed now I get pings with check-in information from the specification
  482. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> The problem was, I think, that the bitbucket copy was cached as soon as you first wget'd it
  483. # [10:34] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You can always make binary patches for Opera :) e.g. http://my.opera.com/d.i.z./blog/2008/05/22/a-road-to-working-xpath
  484. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> Anyway, it works, so I'm happy :)
  485. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> And AryehGregor rocks
  486. # [10:35] <annevk> Ms2ger, well, from what I remember wget'ing it from somewhere else gave the same outdated information; including downloading it from the browser
  487. # [10:35] * Quits: estes (~aestes@76-220-34-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estes)
  488. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> jgraham: hold god (just read that post)
  489. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> I seem to have remember reading that before
  490. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> wild stuff
  491. # [10:37] <annevk> he's actually doing QA on gradients among other things
  492. # [10:37] <jgraham> Yeah, our hiring process is tough ;)
  493. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> this reminds me of the guys in russia who hacked Opera Mini for benQ
  494. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> somehow
  495. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> I used to chat with those guys on IRC sometimes
  496. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> they added tabbed browsing
  497. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> and other stuff
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  500. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> and then there's this http://besen.sourceforge.net/
  501. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> complete ECMAScript Fifth Edition Implemention in Object Pascal
  502. # [10:42] <Ms2ger> What's next, an HTML parser in basic?
  503. # [10:52] <jgraham> Well, elisp
  504. # [10:54] <jgraham> hober: On the subject of which, how is that going?
  505. # [10:56] <hsivonen> Is Delphi itself still supported?
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  530. # [12:16] <annevk> re that twitter discussion
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  534. # [12:17] <annevk> I think I would pick RF tech over "standard" tech
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  541. # [12:43] <hsivonen> :-( looks like Thunderbird doesn't support format=flowed for text/plain composition
  542. # [12:45] <hsivonen> Is Apple's Mail really special for its support for text/plain; format=flowed composition?
  543. # [12:46] <hsivonen> I'd have thought that by now others would have caught up
  544. # [12:52] <annevk> pretty sure Opera supports that
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  546. # [12:57] <hsivonen> http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html will need some new notation for indicating that Chrome no longer supports H.264 as of a certain release
  547. # [13:01] <annevk> it seems my fever is finally reducing
  548. # [13:01] <annevk> teehee
  549. # [13:01] <annevk> time to fix html5-diff for tomorrow
  550. # [13:02] <hsivonen> whoa. I didn't know <a href> allows spaces around the URL
  551. # [13:02] <hsivonen> that seems scary, but I guess it's all compatible
  552. # [13:02] <annevk> they are stripped
  553. # [13:03] <annevk> hsivonen, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4991&to=4992 was the change -- long time ago
  554. # [13:04] <annevk> based on a request by Maciej: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9354
  555. # [13:05] <annevk> I really like how easy that is to figure out
  556. # [13:08] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  557. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/__DavidFlanagan/status/24953286842916865 "console.log() for Web Workers! https://github.com/davidflanagan/WorkerConsole/raw/master/WorkerConsole.js"
  558. # [13:12] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  559. # [13:13] <hsivonen> Creative Commons license and even a NonCommercial one for software. FAIL.
  560. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> Dmitry Soshnikov's "ECMA-262-3 in detail" and "ECMA-262-5 in detail" are nice stuff
  561. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> http://jsmentors.com/Dmitry-A-Soshnikov.html
  562. # [13:16] <MikeSmith> and http://dmitrysoshnikov.com/ecmascript/javascript-the-core/
  563. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Is there a Web site that checks if a browser supports WebM and tells the user to upgrade (if using an old version of a browser whose latest version supports WebM) or to switch browsers (if using a browser that doesn't have a WebM-enabled version) and that WebM-only Web sites can point visitors to?
  564. # [13:22] <hsivonen> Something like an outsourced help page so that every WebM-using site doesn't need to have one of its own
  565. # [13:23] <Moo--> hsivonen: If I were a web site developer I would not create WebM-only sites
  566. # [13:23] <annevk> hsivonen, if you make such a page I can host it on html5.org
  567. # [13:24] <Moo--> hsivonen: also, could it possible to have automatic plug-in download like Chrome Frame which makes IE/Safari download the related WebM-plugin? "This pages need the following plug-in to play the video..."
  568. # [13:25] <annevk> only 100 check-ins since last time
  569. # [13:25] <annevk> with about 4 noteworthy changes
  570. # [13:26] <annevk> admittedly there is a new global attribute, new element, and a new value for dir="", but still overall it confirms once again HTML5 is done
  571. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Moo--: We need authors who are gutsy enough to go WebM-only.
  572. # [13:27] <hsivonen> Moo--: It would make sense to point to downloadable codecs for IE and Safari if IE supported them and a codec pack was available for Safari.
  573. # [13:27] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  574. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Moo--: I just tested, and IE9PP7 doesn't support WebM when the DirectShow filters are installed.
  575. # [13:28] <Moo--> hsivonen: hmm... then you need some wrapper javascript and IE plug-in, not just codecs? The same ugly things you need to do today for Flash content.
  576. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Moo--: and it seems neither Perian nor the WebM project has made a release of a QuickTime component that supports WebM decoding
  577. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Moo--: or you can tell IE users to download Opera, Firefox 4 or Chrome (with these browsers appearing in a random-shuffled order)
  578. # [13:29] <Rik`> hsivonen: it seems Perian has WebM support in SVN
  579. # [13:30] <hsivonen> Rik`: yeah, but it doesn't make sense to tell J. Random User to pull from SVN and compile
  580. # [13:30] <Rik`> of course
  581. # [13:30] <Rik`> but at the same time, it does not make sense to ask to install Firefox 4
  582. # [13:30] <Moo--> hsivonen: we do what we always do - we wait :)
  583. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Rik`: well kinda. Firefox 4 beta is way more J. Random User-friendly than pulling from SVN
  584. # [13:31] <hsivonen> but the real solution is of course actually shipping Firefox 4 as non-beta
  585. # [13:32] <Rik`> and what will iPhone users do ?
  586. # [13:33] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: seems console is available in workers in opera although it doesn't actually log anything to the console
  587. # [13:33] <hsivonen> "Sorry, you have bougth into Apple's Curated Computing platform that doesn't allow a third party to deliver a WebM-enabled browser to you. Please petition Apple to support WebM."
  588. # [13:34] <Rik`> except websites with only a few users, who will say that ?
  589. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Let's find out.
  590. # [13:36] <Rik`> it's not pragmatic at all to support a format that only has around 20% marketshare
  591. # [13:36] <Rik`> *to only support
  592. # [13:37] <Rik`> in a couple of years, maybe
  593. # [13:37] <hsivonen> Some appreciation of freedom over pragmatics is needed to get freedom
  594. # [13:38] <Rik`> I'm just saying that it's too soon to launch such an effort
  595. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Once the Firefox userbase upgrades, the market share of WebM-enabled browsers in Finland will be around 66%
  596. # [13:39] <annevk> MikeSmith, http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/
  597. # [13:39] <annevk> (and everyone else who cares)
  598. # [13:39] <Rik`> I'm really waiting for hardware acceleration for WebM
  599. # [13:39] <Rik`> (and by that I mean hardware acceleration shipping, not planned)
  600. # [13:40] <hsivonen> I wonder how well the latest Firefox 4 beta for Android plays WebM
  601. # [13:40] <hsivonen> beta 2 wasn't good enough to recommend using for WebM playback
  602. # [13:40] <Ms2ger> annevk, you still have getSelection listed
  603. # [13:41] <Rik`> I think Paul was playing with that in the office and it was consuming a lot of battery
  604. # [13:41] <Rik`> but the playback was ok
  605. # [13:41] <annevk> Rik`, I don't think such an effort can be too soon; might just not have as much traction in the beginning as later
  606. # [13:41] <smaug____> hsivonen: I think beta 2 wasn't hw accelerated, but latest beta might be
  607. # [13:41] <annevk> Rik`, the message is important
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  609. # [13:42] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for the hosting offer. Let's see if I can get something done.
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  611. # [13:44] <Rik`> is there any effort by Google to push WebM to the W3C ?
  612. # [13:45] <Ms2ger> Roc said standardization was being worked on, iirc
  613. # [13:45] <annevk> hmm, Ms2ger is not in the acknowledgments
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  615. # [13:45] <annevk> Ms2ger, he did, on this IRC channel last night
  616. # [13:46] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@hdhoang.zahe.me)
  617. # [13:46] <annevk> Ms2ger, updated draft
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  619. # [13:47] <annevk> Ms2ger, also mentioned UndoManager is gone for now
  620. # [13:47] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  622. # [13:50] <smaug____> UndoManager gone?
  623. # [13:50] <jgraham> From HTML5?
  624. # [13:50] <jgraham> Oh, that is good
  625. # [13:51] <jgraham> At least I couldn't work out what you were supposed to implement from the spec
  626. # [13:51] <smaug____> It is still there
  627. # [13:51] <smaug____> annevk: what did you mean?
  628. # [13:51] <Ms2ger> Not from WHATWG HTML
  629. # [13:51] <jgraham> Oh
  630. # [13:51] <smaug____> ah
  631. # [13:51] * Ms2ger feels like fireworks
  632. # [13:52] <zcorpan> http://html5.org/r/5735
  633. # [13:52] <smaug____> UndoManager needs still some work to become useful...
  634. # [13:52] <jgraham> Well in that case, I still can't work out what you are supposed to implement given the spec text
  635. # [13:52] <annevk> smaug____, it is removed from the W3C copy of HTML5
  636. # [13:52] <annevk> smaug____, that is what I wrote in html5-diff
  637. # [13:52] <Ms2ger> jgraham, file a bug :)
  638. # [13:52] <annevk> (sorry for not being clear here)
  639. # [13:53] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah, I should. But it would be like those bugs from the crazies
  640. # [13:53] * smaug____ doesn't follow W3C HTML5 work at all
  641. # [13:53] <jgraham> "I have no idea what this section is on about"
  642. # [13:54] <annevk> smaug____, I thought you preferred that variant?
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  647. # [14:18] <hsivonen> Interesting. http://www.sonyinsider.com/2011/01/11/hands-on-with-sony-bravia-internet-browser/ suggests Opera on Bravia would ship with Java support but without Flash support
  648. # [14:20] <hsivonen> and indeed, only Sony Ericsson--not the big Sony itself--is listed as Adobe's bundling and porting partner
  649. # [14:21] <tmzt> will there be a standard way to dispatch messages from a server in a javascript application on the client? websocket messages or the like with an event callback api?
  650. # [14:21] <hsivonen> looks like Sony isn't letting Opera's logo be part of what the user sees
  651. # [14:22] <Rik`> tmzt: you have WebSockets and Server-sent events
  652. # [14:23] <Rik`> http://dev.w3.org/html5/websockets/ and http://dev.w3.org/html5/eventsource/
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  657. # [14:36] <tmzt> Rik`: I see, so from my bad reading of the EBNF, events are json without the {} enclosure?
  658. # [14:37] <tmzt> is there an alternative mime type for binary events or multiple streams on one http connection?
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  660. # [14:37] <Rik`> I'm not familiar with this
  661. # [14:41] <annevk> nope
  662. # [14:41] <annevk> multiple streams you could implement at the server I guess...
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  666. # [14:53] <annevk> the amount of negative comments on http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/html-video-codec-support-in-chrome.html is somewhat sad
  667. # [14:54] <jgraham> It's weird, like Gecko doesn't exist
  668. # [14:54] <jgraham> Or Opera for that matter
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  671. # [14:57] <jgraham> Although reading the comments, a more likely interpretation is that people are idiots
  672. # [14:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, Gecko with WebM support doesn't exist as far as Web authors are concerned, because it hasn't shipped yet
  673. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: the likely explanation is that commenters came in from Daring Fireball links and similar fanboi venues
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  675. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: on days like this, it's amusing to read jd's twitter stream for commentary
  676. # [14:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: I forget that people actually use Firefox 3.6
  677. # [14:59] <annevk> I wish Gruber was a bit more idealistic at times
  678. # [14:59] <jgraham> But even so, most of the comments make no sense
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  680. # [15:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: https://twitter.com/#!/jdowdell/status/24939070509547520
  681. # [15:00] <hsivonen> annevk: if Apple shipped WebM, Gruber would be idealistic in a heartbeat
  682. # [15:00] <Rik`> when Apple removes support for an old technology, it's visionary :)
  683. # [15:01] * jgraham is reminded of http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2062507
  684. # [15:01] <gsnedders> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1946532&cid=34842284
  685. # [15:01] <hsivonen> also, the obligatory "nothing to see here" jd tweet: https://twitter.com/#!/jdowdell/status/24978153059389440
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  687. # [15:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: Your point being that we don't ship h.264 (at least on desktop)?
  688. # [15:02] <gsnedders> jgraham: We do on a single device.
  689. # [15:02] <jgraham> Oh, you said that
  690. # [15:03] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, only very rarely is he not quite in alignment with Apple PR
  691. # [15:03] <gsnedders> But yeah, further to the misinformation above
  692. # [15:03] <annevk> hsivonen, still pretty good writing and links though
  693. # [15:03] <jgraham> Seriously, I have no idea why people read Gruber
  694. # [15:03] <annevk> jgraham, but you do not like reddit either :)
  695. # [15:04] <annevk> hsivonen, his tweets are funny
  696. # [15:05] <annevk> topmost Slashdot comment sides Opera with Safari and MSIE
  697. # [15:05] <annevk> +5 Interesting
  698. # [15:05] <annevk> o_O
  699. # [15:05] <jgraham> annevk: True. But Gruber is basically just an apple evangalist who happens to be not directly employed by apple.
  700. # [15:06] <jgraham> In general consuming marketing materials for fun or information seems bad
  701. # [15:07] <Rik`> jgraham: so you're saying that no one should read "evangelists" ?
  702. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> No, that no one should read Gruber :)
  703. # [15:08] <jgraham> Rik`: I'm saying "consuming marketing materials for fun or information seems bad"
  704. # [15:09] <jgraham> Gruber clearly produces marketing materials
  705. # [15:09] <Rik`> well, I've read Chrome marketing material about dropping H264 for information, which is bad, right ?
  706. # [15:09] <Rik`> and I assume you have done that too
  707. # [15:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: Gruber also posts interesting links. Also, his commentary on Flash is insightful, because when commenting on Flash, insightfulness aligns with Apple's agenda
  708. # [15:10] <annevk> jgraham, his interests overlap with mine and his commentary is really quite good I think
  709. # [15:10] <annevk> jgraham, I do think he should be more of an open web evangelist, but alas, not his thing
  710. # [15:11] <hsivonen> is this a good time to point out that Opera Mini 5.1 beta for S60 is bad at loading Daring Fireball?
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  712. # [15:11] <hsivonen> fails about 2 times out of 3 for no apparent reason
  713. # [15:11] <jgraham> Rik`: Mostly I got that information from here
  714. # [15:11] <annevk> hsivonen, bugs.opera.com/wizard is a much better place
  715. # [15:11] <hsivonen> annevk: been there already
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  722. # [15:15] <annevk> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2093219 covers the Gruber thing too it seems
  723. # [15:15] <annevk> maybe I should read Hacker News more often
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  725. # [15:21] <Rik`> http://www.salsitasoft.com/blog/2011/01/12/chrome-drops-h264/
  726. # [15:21] <Rik`> this looks like a fair overview
  727. # [15:23] <annevk> he misses H264 royalties for tools
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  732. # [15:30] <hsivonen> annevk: "Let's use Handbrake / Miro Video Converter / etc." don't really help make the point about tool royalties...
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  737. # [15:34] <annevk> I think it is really quite simple. If any vendor has to put up more money than the cost of engineering support for the technology the technology is not suitable for the web.
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  741. # [15:35] <hsivonen> great. back when my server broke, in the course of the recovery, I forgot to tweak how Apache handles .gz
  742. # [15:36] <Rik`> also, I'm wondering why everyone is saying that Apple prefers H264 over WebM
  743. # [15:37] <Rik`> I've read that they pay more in royalties for H264 than they receive money
  744. # [15:37] <annevk> I suspect they prefer it because all their hardware and software revolves around it.
  745. # [15:37] <rimantas> because iP*s can decode h.264 in hardware
  746. # [15:38] <hsivonen> Rik`: they are said to "prefer" what they ship over what they don't ship
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  749. # [15:39] <Rik`> but Apple is often changing technologies
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  752. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Rik`: I'm sure people would say Apple prefers WebM if Steve got on stage and said www.apple.com henceforth serves WebM to Safari
  753. # [15:40] * karlcow is rediscovering http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/blockquotes.html
  754. # [15:41] <karlcow> and http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/credits.html
  755. # [15:41] <Ms2ger> Yay HTML3
  756. # [15:42] <annevk> Opera had support for it
  757. # [15:42] <annevk> <bq>
  758. # [15:42] <Rik`> hsivonen: Apple has also often changed his mind
  759. # [15:42] <annevk> gsnedders got most of it killed
  760. # [15:42] * Ms2ger wants <bbq>
  761. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> Yay gsnedders!
  762. # [15:42] <Rik`> Steve one day said "we'll never do a phone"
  763. # [15:43] <hsivonen> Rik`: sure, but it's reasonable for people to say that Apple prefers H.264 in the present tense
  764. # [15:43] <karlcow> <ribs><sauce flavor="texas"/></ribs>
  765. # [15:43] <Rik`> hsivonen: they said that and the next sentence is "Apple will never drop H264 in favor of WebM"
  766. # [15:44] <jgraham> Our "support" for <bq> has implementing a weird interface that was like HTMLElement in all but name, or something
  767. # [15:44] <hsivonen> Rik`: well, that's not a sensible thing to say
  768. # [15:45] <karlcow> I like the fact that <credit> was inside <bq>. It is useful sometimes.
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  770. # [15:46] <karlcow> still craving for a better way to make quotes with attribution in html. :)
  771. # [15:50] <hsivonen> karlcow: it's easier if you just let go of semantics and write the attribution in a user-readable way
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  773. # [15:51] <karlcow> hsivonen: agreed with the user-readable way :)
  774. # [15:52] <karlcow> as for semantics, there are moments where it is useful for some categories of people to have a better model. I gave up trying to convince the htmlwg a long time ago. I'm doing my own things. ;)
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  776. # [15:53] <karlcow> which is non conformant according to the spec :)
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  789. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> annevk, were you looking for this quote by mpilgrim? (I couldn't find it in the #whatwg logs, but I didn't look very hard.) http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/03/amor_robustum.html
  790. # [16:28] <annevk> I found it earlier today
  791. # [16:28] <annevk> roc is quoting Gruber there
  792. # [16:28] <annevk> mpilgrim's quote is here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100318#l-65
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  804. # [16:38] <jgraham> roc's argument equally applies to what mpilgrim said
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  811. # [16:48] <gsnedders> annevk: We had support of it insofar as it got the HTMLQuoteElement interface, but that was it. We hardly had support for it to start with. :P
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  829. # [17:10] <annevk> hsivonen, I was wondering whether to bite; glad you did
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  866. # [18:34] <annevk> http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/01/12/slashdot-comment now he's pushing it
  867. # [18:34] <annevk> wtf
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  869. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Dude what.
  870. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Nothing in that entire comment made any sense.
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  872. # [18:39] * jgraham will be good and resist mentioning the pro-Gruber statements earlier about him having good commetary and a sensible position on flash
  873. # [18:39] <jgraham> Although it seems I will meta-mention it
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  875. # [18:40] <annevk> I think your attempt at doing that just failed, yes :)
  876. # [18:40] <jgraham> But seriously, wtf barely covers it
  877. # [18:42] <jgraham> And now back to your regularly scheduled light entertainment: http://superuser.com/questions/231273/what-are-the-windows-a-and-b-drives-used-for
  878. # [18:45] * Ms2ger feels old
  879. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> Damn you, jgraham
  880. # [18:46] <gsnedders> I, /I/, feel old.
  881. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> omg
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  885. # [18:48] <jgraham> I made gsnedders feel old? That but be the sound of victory! What do I win?
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  887. # [18:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: Nah, I felt old when I saw it on Twitter last nigh t;P
  888. # [18:48] <gsnedders> *night
  889. # [18:49] <jgraham> So even the ews feels old?
  890. # [18:49] <jgraham> *news
  891. # [18:49] <jgraham> The ewes are an entirely differnt matter
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  894. # [18:58] <bga_> when webkit will supports Float64Array? Anybody know?
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  898. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> The Chrome team did manage to flood my feed reader, that much is clear
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  919. # [19:48] <mven> hixie got a quick question for you in the html5 label element spec
  920. # [19:48] <Hixie> sure
  921. # [19:49] <mven> i'm used to putting labels right next to my inputs like so: <label for="myInput">My Name</label><input type="text" id="myName" />
  922. # [19:49] <mven> however
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  924. # [19:50] <mven> in the html5 see that labels are wrarpped around the input now
  925. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Both are fine
  926. # [19:50] <mven> is there a significant difference in doing it the way I've always had and can i keep doing it even if I start using the html5 doctype ?
  927. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> Labels were always wrappable around the input. That just makes it so that you don't have to use @for.
  928. # [19:52] <TabAtkins> Check the first paragraph of that section of the spec: "The caption can be associated with a specific form control, known as the label element's labeled control, either using for attribute, or by putting the form control inside the label element itself."
  929. # [19:53] <mven> Ahh
  930. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> So it seems like HTML5 assumes strings are sequences of Unicode characters, while in JavaScript they're actually sequences of 16-bit numbers which are typically interpreted as UTF-16 code units.
  931. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> Is this bad?
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  933. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "typically interpreted as"? Strings *are* UTF-16-encoded byte sequences in javascript. What's the distinction you're trying to draw?
  934. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> WebIDL should probably handle that
  935. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, a string in JavaScript doesn't have to be valid UTF-16.
  936. # [19:54] <Hixie> mven: what tab said. HTML4 already allowed that.
  937. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, kk. True.
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  939. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, WebIDL doesn't apply to random functions that accept strings. I'm thinking of atob() and btoa() here.
  940. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Why not?
  941. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Does it?
  942. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> I have to read WebIDL sometime.
  943. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Oh, hmm.
  944. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I guess it does, doesn't it?
  945. # [19:55] <mven> cool. thanks for the clarifications guys
  946. # [19:55] * AryehGregor looks at WebIDL
  947. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Random functions, no. Defined functions with typed arguments, yes.
  948. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Okay, where are they hiding the ED of WebIDL?
  949. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/
  950. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> Argh I hate the years in w3c urls.
  951. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> SO MEANINGLESS.
  952. # [19:57] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: there's no reason it wouldn't apply, just add an interface that applies on top of Window
  953. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I forgot that all these functions are defined with WebIDL interfaces.
  954. # [19:57] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I've been hating the dates since, like, 2000
  955. # [19:57] <Ms2ger> Old man.
  956. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Okay, so it looks like users of WebIDL have to explicitly say that they want to convert a DOMString to a sequence of Unicode characters.
  957. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> For correctness, I guess either I should say that or do it in code units.
  958. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> I guess that makes sense
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  961. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Why is [1, 3] === [1, 3] false?
  962. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Arrays are compared by object identity.
  963. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  964. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Javascript's equality is so broken.
  965. # [20:11] <Workshiva> eh
  966. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> s/'s equality //
  967. # [20:12] <Workshiva> It's a very simple model, objects are always compared by identity
  968. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> I forget, does 1 === 1?
  969. # [20:12] * TabAtkins supposes he can check for himself...
  970. # [20:12] <miketaylr> yes
  971. # [20:13] <Workshiva> === just avoids type conversion
  972. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> And you called it simple. Pfft.
  973. # [20:13] <hober> well, === is basically CL's eq, whereas == is CL's equal.
  974. # [20:13] <hober> you *want* [1,3] === [1,3] to be false
  975. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Maybe. Perhaps I just want "same type, and same data".
  976. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> That is, == without the type conversion.
  977. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Which is what I thought === *was*, until I recently discovered I was mistaken.
  978. # [20:14] <Workshiva> That way lies madness
  979. # [20:14] <hober> woth a read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
  980. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> Also, operator overloading
  981. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Yup, I'm a Lisper. I love my 5 builtin equality functions.
  982. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> Though, honestly, who ever uses EQL?
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  988. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, here's a test for you: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/raw-file/6243b5d14211/tests/submission/AryehGregor/selection-dir.html
  989. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> Yay :)
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  1001. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Now I get to define Selection.extend(), yay.
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  1005. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> Good luck
  1006. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> And much appreciated
  1007. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> :)
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  1009. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> What's the "(maybe not in order)" about?
  1010. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Just that the correct offsets are selected period, even if they're not backwards like they should be.
  1011. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> In particular, IE9 beta passes that test but fails subsequent ones.
  1012. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> It's partly a sanity check to make sure that the user actually selected what they were supposed to.
  1013. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Okay
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  1018. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> Is there a way to get the (x, y) coordinates of the caret, or to scroll it into view, or to scroll a Range or Selection into view?
  1019. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> (this is largely unrelated to what I'm doing)
  1020. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Range.getBoundingClientRect(), maybe?
  1021. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Or Range.startContainer(.parentNode).scrollIntoView
  1022. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> The latter doesn't work for a large element with scrollbars, as you'd get in a contenteditable type scenario.
  1023. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  1024. # [21:15] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11166 about the reset insertion mode algorithm seems to be wrong. Not sure who filed it, but the IP was someone at Opera. jgraham maybe? Anyway, I'd love a second opinion in case I am wrong about it being wrong.
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  1029. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> assert_equals(selection.anchorNode, p); assert_equals(selection.anchorNode, p);
  1030. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> I hope those both have the same result :)
  1031. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Oops.
  1032. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Copy-paste fail.
  1033. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> I gathered
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  1035. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Updated.
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  1038. # [21:39] <paul_irish> this is totally pendantic.. but.. do "elements" exist in HTML? or would you say "elements" are only in the DOM that's constructed from the tags 'n such parsed from the HTML?
  1039. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Yes, elements exist in the DOM.
  1040. # [21:40] <paul_irish> but HTML has no elements.
  1041. # [21:40] <Peter`> and tags are strings
  1042. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> The HTML text contains tags.
  1043. # [21:40] <nimbupani> so what do you call a <em>text</em>
  1044. # [21:40] <Peter`> The DOM representation of the HTML text contains elements
  1045. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Tags and their contents are parsed into elements.
  1046. # [21:40] <nimbupani> in HTML
  1047. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> An em element?
  1048. # [21:41] <nimbupani> :)
  1049. # [21:41] <paul_irish> heheh but thats the HTML serialization of an em element!
  1050. # [21:41] <nimbupani> paul_irish pwnedddddd
  1051. # [21:41] <pesla> paul_irish: So HTML in itself doesnt have elements
  1052. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> There's HTML the serialization and HTML the DOM language
  1053. # [21:41] <Ms2ger> The former has tags, the latter has elements
  1054. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> What's the purpose of the pedantry?
  1055. # [21:42] <paul_irish> terminology fights that go nowhere.
  1056. # [21:42] <nimbupani> to do in-ur-face on people who are pedantic about tags and elements
  1057. # [21:42] <paul_irish> and that.
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  1059. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> What's the purpose of the terminology fights?
  1060. # [21:42] * paul_irish shrugs.
  1061. # [21:42] <nimbupani> TabAtkins you are sounding too zen for me.
  1062. # [21:43] <paul_irish> its so just zen.
  1063. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> <em> is a tag. <em>foo</em> is an element. Done.
  1064. # [21:43] <Peter`> He just came back from vacation, evidently was a good one :)
  1065. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> <br> is a tag and an element.
  1066. # [21:43] <Hixie> man, that's a lot of discussion over a simple request to be able to seek by frames rather than by time
  1067. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Or perhaps you could say it "represents" a tag and an element.
  1068. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That's what happens when you start with the solution.
  1069. # [21:44] <Hixie> hear hear
  1070. # [21:44] <paul_irish> only because... you can't type an element if you dont serialize it to html
  1071. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> It is two tags and some text, and it represents one element
  1072. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Hixie, the problem with writing lots of manual tests is that no one will run them.
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  1074. # [21:45] <Hixie> AryehGregor: they won't get run as often, but they'll still get run
  1075. # [21:45] <Hixie> the problem with not having any manual tests is that nobody can run them :-)
  1076. # [21:45] <Ms2ger> See the spam on p-html-testsuite
  1077. # [21:45] * Hixie resists the temptation to say "back in my day, we only had manual tests, and we liked it!" :-P
  1078. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> Hixie, that's what MS still does
  1079. # [21:46] <Hixie> wow, that explains a lot
  1080. # [21:46] <jgraham> You could call it some text tagged as <em>
  1081. # [21:46] <Ms2ger> jgraham, <em> or em? :)
  1082. # [21:47] <jgraham> Wait, who's writing manual tests?
  1083. # [21:47] <jgraham> Please stop...
  1084. # [21:47] <Ms2ger> Untestable without user interaction, sorry
  1085. # [21:47] <Hixie> jgraham: selection ui tests
  1086. # [21:48] <Hixie> jgraham: not really any way to test the effect of user interaction on the selection API other than having some user interaction, currently.
  1087. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> All right, time to write some slides.
  1088. # [21:49] <Hixie> jgraham: AryehGregor and i were just discussing this privately, saying how it would be great to have a testing API that let you fake out the user interaction from a test, though
  1089. # [21:49] <jgraham> Well we could all use watir or similar. Doesn't that have support for all major browsers these days?
  1090. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I was trying to convince Hixie that I shouldn't write lots of tests like this: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/raw-file/6243b5d14211/tests/submission/AryehGregor/selection-dir.html
  1091. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Mochitest has that!
  1092. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> I know.
  1093. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> But it would be nice if spec tests were cross-browser. ;)
  1094. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> I know you know :)
  1095. # [21:50] <Ms2ger> Pff ;)
  1096. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> And preferably in JavaScript, unlike Watir. Although currently it's impossible to have both of those.
  1097. # [21:50] <Hixie> i'd be extremely happy to have the tests be automated so long as they still work in isolation, just like regular JS tests
  1098. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> What do you mean by "work in isolation"?
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  1100. # [21:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: as in, you don't have to run a massive harness just to run one file
  1101. # [21:51] <jgraham> I don't exactly like watir. But I don't like manual tests more
  1102. # [21:51] <jgraham> Hixie: Why is that a requirement?
  1103. # [21:51] <Hixie> i don't like manual tests, but i don't like the lack of any tests more. :-)
  1104. # [21:51] <jgraham> (ideally they should be possible to run both ways)
  1105. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Is there any Watir equivalent in, say, Python?
  1106. # [21:52] <jgraham> I find there is very little difference between manual tests and missing tests
  1107. # [21:52] <jgraham> Neither get run often enough
  1108. # [21:52] <Hixie> jgraham: i almost never care about the aggregate result, i always care about specific tests (e.g. because i'm trying to reverse engineer a specific feature, or because i'm trying to file a bug with a reproducible case, or because i'm trying to debug a specific failure)
  1109. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> How about Selenium? Is that too evil or heavyweight?
  1110. # [21:53] <jgraham> Hixie: That isn't the typical case for a browser developer
  1111. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Yeah, tests are mostly for browser developers, not spec writers . . .
  1112. # [21:53] <Hixie> jgraham: so?
  1113. # [21:54] <Hixie> jgraham: given that it's trivial to support...
  1114. # [21:54] <jgraham> Hixie: You are atypical and we should weigh your needs accordingly :)
  1115. # [21:54] <jgraham> What is trivial to suuport?
  1116. # [21:54] <Hixie> and browser developers need to be able te debug failing tests, you know :-)
  1117. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Selenium is maybe too opaque.
  1118. # [21:54] <Hixie> jgraham: making tests that run in isolation as well as en-masse
  1119. # [21:54] <jgraham> If you are arguning that automated tests should *also* work when run manually, I agree
  1120. # [21:55] <Hixie> yes
  1121. # [21:55] <gavin> whether or not you need a harness is separate from whether or not a single test can be run
  1122. # [21:55] <Hixie> we seem to be in violent agreement
  1123. # [21:55] <jgraham> gavin: In this specific case a "harness" is an external program that provides user input
  1124. # [21:55] <jgraham> You should generally be able to do without that
  1125. # [21:56] <jgraham> Because the test should describe the set of steps to take
  1126. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> I really wish we could just spec some basic JS APIs like Mochitest has and use those if the browser is invoked in some magic way (to avoid security issues).
  1127. # [21:56] <jgraham> Although they might be impractical to actually do manually
  1128. # [21:57] <jgraham> AryehGregor: This stuff is, at least, complex. I'm not sure if that is possible or impossible
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  1130. # [21:57] <jgraham> But it's not clear how it works if e.g. navigation of a top level browsing context is part of the test
  1131. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Well, first things first.
  1132. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Just basic synthesis of clicks and keypresses would go a very long way.
  1133. # [21:58] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/filters/publish/SVGFilter.html#InterfaceImageData takes something that HTML specs, and respecs it dropping almost all the conformance criteria, and then says it's trying to be compatible with HTML.
  1134. # [21:58] <Hixie> sigh.
  1135. # [21:59] <Ms2ger> SVG.
  1136. # [21:59] <jgraham> AryehGregor: The problem is you can end up with lots of 20% solutions
  1137. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Sure.
  1138. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Although I'd say that keypresses and clicks are more like 80% solutions.
  1139. # [22:00] * jgraham would be interested to see if that matches our internal tests
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  1141. # [22:00] <benschwarz> Hixie: !ping
  1142. # [22:01] <heycam> Hixie, yeah it does seem like it would be better if that just referenced the ImageData from HTML5 instead of half copying it
  1143. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Internal tests are testing different things on average than spec tests.
  1144. # [22:01] <Hixie> benschwarz: here
  1145. # [22:01] <benschwarz> Hixie: on the code areas, there are only a few options… what do you think we should do?
  1146. # [22:01] <benschwarz> scrolling them is awkward
  1147. # [22:01] <benschwarz> plus, not very good on a mobile device
  1148. # [22:02] <jgraham> AryehGregor: True. But it is a pain for us to implement two different solutions for the two cases
  1149. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> More or less of a pain than speccing and implementing a fuller API?
  1150. # [22:02] <Hixie> benschwarz: dunno. I had the same problem on my blog and ended up with a terrible half-assed solution (i made the paragraphs have a fixed width but let more or less everything else be as wide as it wanted, which looks pretty ugly when you have nested lists)
  1151. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> You can wrap the minimal specced API around your thorough internal API.
  1152. # [22:03] <Hixie> benschwarz: adding a scroll bar is definitely the wrong solution, it's horrible UI (and feels stupid, especially when the page has lots of whitespace)
  1153. # [22:03] <benschwarz> Hixie, yeah I'd like to avoid that. I did look at :hover states to widen them, clip them otherwise, but again, doesn't work on all devices
  1154. # [22:03] <Hixie> benschwarz: maybe we should suck it up and let the examples overflow to the left? or something? I mean, it will look a bit ugly, but...
  1155. # [22:03] <Hixie> benschwarz: we can also make the font size smaller
  1156. # [22:04] <benschwarz> Hixie: I was thinking I could keep it the same, widen the box a little, and pull them left (like the notes)
  1157. # [22:04] <Hixie> benschwarz: yeah, that might work. Though the notes being pulled to the left looks like they're slipping out or something.
  1158. # [22:05] <benschwarz> Hixie: maybe they're pulled a little too much, but either way it breaks up the vertical jungle of code
  1159. # [22:05] <Hixie> yeah
  1160. # [22:06] <Hixie> maybe pull the examples as a whole out instead?
  1161. # [22:06] <Hixie> there's no really a strong need to style the notes in the dev edition
  1162. # [22:06] <Hixie> they're only notes because they're non-normative, and the devs won't care
  1163. # [22:06] <Hixie> so we can just let them look like normal prose, and then pull the examples out to break the flow a bit
  1164. # [22:06] <Hixie> but dunno
  1165. # [22:06] <Hixie> i'm no designer :-)
  1166. # [22:07] <Hixie> just look at the current spec :-)
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  1168. # [22:08] <benschwarz> Hixie: I need to read the spec and think about the roles of those elements
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  1170. # [22:09] <Hixie> k
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  1172. # [22:10] <Ms2ger> What about pre-line?
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  1174. # [22:12] <Hixie> benschwarz: fwiw, the longest line in an example is the ridiculous line in the <span> element's section, but that one _should_ wrap, that's fine
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  1176. # [22:13] <Hixie> benschwarz: other than that, the next longest lines are the one that first mentions "Preferred delivery time" in the Forms section, and the one in the Conversations section, though that last one can wrap without problem
  1177. # [22:14] <Hixie> benschwarz: looks like the maximum line length you should expect is about 160 characters monospace, with most being 120 or less
  1178. # [22:14] <benschwarz> pretty wide :)
  1179. # [22:15] <benschwarz> I've pulled down the font-size
  1180. # [22:15] <Hixie> most lines in the spec seem to be 71 characters, but i haven't got a quick way to limit my search to <pre> blocks
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  1182. # [22:16] <benschwarz> Hixie: fair enough
  1183. # [22:16] <Hixie> benschwarz: if you come across any gratuitously long lines, though, let me know and i'll shrink them
  1184. # [22:17] <benschwarz> I will
  1185. # [22:17] <Hixie> benschwarz: there's a few that are long because that's just the best way to convey what they say, but most don't fall into that category
  1186. # [22:17] <benschwarz> Hixie: no worries
  1187. # [22:18] <benschwarz> we don't have to have the answers to everything right now
  1188. # [22:18] <benschwarz> its about a line in the sand
  1189. # [22:20] <benschwarz> Hixie: I have to leave for work :)
  1190. # [22:20] <benschwarz> really, its a :(
  1191. # [22:20] <benschwarz> I'd rather get this spec right
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  1194. # [22:21] <benschwarz> Laters all!
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  1198. # [22:34] <Hixie> anyone here know anything about ICE/STUN btw?
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  1200. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> I am frankly surprised that "ice stun" turned up such good results.
  1201. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> (I know nothing.)
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  1230. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Hixie, put it this way: there's such a thing as having too many tests. You reach that point when the cost of running the extra tests outweighs the benefit of realistically catching any extra bugs. For manual tests, that threshold is very, very low, since they're so expensive to write and run.
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  1232. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> How about when I run out of things to do, you assign me to write a basic spec for cross-browser UI testing, like with click simulation or whatever?
  1233. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> I imagine it wouldn't be hard to implement the few most basic things in at least one browser.
  1234. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> (not that I'm saying I'll do that part, but maybe someone will be interested in doing it quickly)
  1235. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> (I'm still writing some more manual tests here, but I think it's a bad idea to write more than a few.)
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  1242. # Session Close: Thu Jan 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)