/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jan 16 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:47] <Hixie_> hsivonen: longdesc advocacy never had any traction. I'm not sure what you mean by the "calling text/html XHTML" thing, there was serious advocacy on both sides of that (including from me for years before whatwg!) so I don't think the same situation applies.
  19. # [00:47] <Hixie_> hsivonen: why it's an orgument, and has been an argument, is listed in the rest of the CCP
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  23. # [00:52] <Hixie> http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2011/01/video-debate-cutting-to-the-chase.html would have more credibility (complaining about HTML design) if Adobe and j/d in particular actually ever sent real feedback on HTML
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  25. # [00:53] <Hixie> sephr: adoptNode() is going away
  26. # [00:53] <sephr> Hixie: then how will I adopt nodes?
  27. # [00:53] <sephr> it'll be automatic?
  28. # [00:53] <Hixie> yeah
  29. # [00:53] <sephr> cool
  30. # [00:53] <Hixie> already is in many browsers
  31. # [00:53] <sephr> well my problem is still present if I skip adoptnode
  32. # [00:54] <Hixie> yeah the problem is probably more specific to DocType nodes
  33. # [00:54] <sephr> why can't you insert a doctype from another document into another document?
  34. # [00:54] <Hixie> dunno
  35. # [00:54] <sephr> nobody knows :/
  36. # [00:54] <Hixie> ms2ger might be able to tell you
  37. # [00:54] <sephr> yet it's consistant with EVERY browser
  38. # [00:54] <Hixie> but he ain't here :-)
  39. # [00:54] <Hixie> maybe you can't remove a doctype once it's in a doc?
  40. # [00:54] <Hixie> try cloning the doctype itself
  41. # [00:54] <sephr> Hixie: I can /remove/ the doctype fine
  42. # [00:55] <sephr> and yeah I've clone the doctype itself
  43. # [00:55] <sephr> the problem has to do with separate views
  44. # [00:55] <sephr> I mean separate document views
  45. # [00:55] <sephr> and moving their doctypes to other document views
  46. # [00:55] <Hixie> document views?
  47. # [00:55] <sephr> Documents
  48. # [00:55] <sephr> DocumentViews
  49. # [00:55] <sephr> same thing
  50. # [00:56] <sephr> oh and could you help with my second question?
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  52. # [00:56] <sephr> should stylesheet.insertRule('x{}', stylesheet.cssRules.length); trigger a DOM mutation event?
  53. # [00:56] <sephr> assuming the stylesheet is in the document
  54. # [00:57] <sephr> Hixie
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  64. # [01:12] <Hixie> sephr: sorry, was afk
  65. # [01:13] <sephr> sure
  66. # [01:13] <Hixie> sephr: DocumentView is going away altogether, and nobody really implements it, not sure what you mean by that
  67. # [01:13] <sephr> mozilla implements it...
  68. # [01:13] <Hixie> not really
  69. # [01:13] <sephr> yeah I know
  70. # [01:13] <sephr> but at least it exists
  71. # [01:13] <sephr> Hixie: is AbstractView going away too? I would hope for the opposite
  72. # [01:13] <Hixie> re the mutation event thing, yeah, i guess it should, at least assuming textContent changes... does it?
  73. # [01:13] <sephr> for Window to go away
  74. # [01:13] <sephr> Window is a terrible abstraction
  75. # [01:14] <Hixie> AbstractView is meing merged into Window and DocumentView into Document.
  76. # [01:14] <sephr> so DocumentView will === Document?
  77. # [01:14] <sephr> I hope that's how it ends up
  78. # [01:14] <Hixie> DocumentView won't exist, the stuff that's on it today will be on Document
  79. # [01:14] <sephr> will AbstractView === Window at least?
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  81. # [01:15] <sephr> AbstractView is much much more appropriately named
  82. # [01:15] <sephr> than Window
  83. # [01:15] <Hixie> AbstractView will similarly not exist and its stuff will be moved to Window
  84. # [01:15] <sephr> I would prefer if it was named View even
  85. # [01:15] <sephr> :(
  86. # [01:15] <Hixie> we can't change this stuff, there's billions of documents that depend on it
  87. # [01:15] <sephr> has anyone ever raised the suggestion of just making both of them "View"
  88. # [01:15] <Hixie> what's the benefit of doing that?
  89. # [01:15] <sephr> yeah, but there can be aliases
  90. # [01:15] <sephr> Hixie: it sounds more appropriate
  91. # [01:15] <Hixie> aliases add no features and increase bugs
  92. # [01:15] <AryehGregor> Then it's even more confusing.
  93. # [01:16] <sephr> well "Window" existing is a bug imo
  94. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> You have two different names but they actually secretly refer to the same thing.
  95. # [01:16] <sephr> and there's a window variable but not a "view" variable
  96. # [01:16] <sephr> crazy
  97. # [01:16] <Hixie> by 'bug' i mean something that acts differently in different browsers
  98. # [01:16] <sephr> (though I know "self" is sorta appropriate)
  99. # [01:16] <Hixie> if you want to use View, just put View = Window at the top of your code :-)
  100. # [01:17] <sephr> Hixie: what about making a view variable? the w3c seems fine with tons of variables that all are the view
  101. # [01:17] <sephr> self, document.defaultView, window, ...
  102. # [01:18] <sephr> oh I got sidetracked
  103. # [01:18] <sephr> my question was about mutation events from DOM Style changes
  104. # [01:18] <sephr> "should stylesheet.insertRule('x{}', stylesheet.cssRules.length); trigger a DOM mutation event?"
  105. # [01:19] <sephr> assuming stylesheet is just some stylesheet from document.styleSheets
  106. # [01:19] <Hixie> we already have like fifteen aliases for window, let's not add more... it really won't help anything. If you need an alias, just say view = window at the top of your code.
  107. # [01:19] <Hixie> like i said, aliases add no features and add bugs, so we don't do them generally
  108. # [01:21] <sephr> Hixie: alright, sure
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  112. # [01:26] <sephr> Hixie: missed my other question?
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  115. # [01:27] <Hixie> <Hixie> re the mutation event thing, yeah, i guess it should, at least assuming textContent changes... does it?
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  117. # [01:27] <sephr> oh yeah
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  119. # [01:28] <sephr> didn't see that
  120. # [01:28] <sephr> well textcontent doesn't change, but it should, shouldn't it?
  121. # [01:28] <Hixie> i dunno, what does the spec for insertRule say?
  122. # [01:29] <sephr> Hixie: while I look that up, should someElement.style.color="red"; trigger it at least?
  123. # [01:29] <sephr> because I can't get any browsers firing it from that either
  124. # [01:31] <Hixie> i dunno, does it change the content attribute's value?
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  126. # [01:32] <sephr> Hixie: yes
  127. # [01:32] <sephr> and the insertRule spec is way too vague
  128. # [01:33] <sephr> it doesn't mention anything about the resulting DOM tree changes
  129. # [01:34] <Hixie> if the attribute's value changes, then an attribute mutation event should presumably fire
  130. # [01:34] <Hixie> so i expect in practice most UAs jsut serialise the attribute on the fly
  131. # [01:34] <Hixie> and there isn't really a content attribute
  132. # [01:34] <Hixie> re insertRule, is the spec vague, or does it just not mention it because it doesn't apply?
  133. # [01:34] <Hixie> if it's vague, file a bug
  134. # [01:36] <sephr> Hixie: it applies, but it's not mentioned almost anywhere in the entire DOM Level 2 Style spec
  135. # [01:36] <sephr> nodes are only referenced when talking about the owner node of a stylesheet
  136. # [01:36] <sephr> and what to do if said node is removed from a document
  137. # [01:44] <Hixie> my guess is that it actually doesn't apply, and that insertRule just changes the internal representation, not the DOM
  138. # [01:44] <Hixie> but anne would know better
  139. # [01:50] <sephr> k, thanks. I'll memoserv [her]?
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  141. # [02:07] <Hixie> him
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  145. # [02:12] <sephr> Hixie: too late, heh
  146. # [02:12] <sephr> I guess he's afk
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  172. # [04:42] <Hixie> so generally, the scope of an ISSUE in the HTMLWG is the change requested in the bug that was escalated for that issue, right?
  173. # [04:43] <Hixie> so what's the scope for an issue that is escalated in response to a bug that was fixed?
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  188. # [07:02] <erlehmann> i want a html5 imageboard. with <audio> and <video>, <canvas> and localstorage.
  189. # [07:02] <erlehmann> WHO IS WITH ME.
  190. # [07:03] <Hixie> imageboard?
  191. # [07:03] <Hixie> oh like 4chan and so on?
  192. # [07:03] <erlehmann> yep.
  193. # [07:03] <Hixie> i never understood the attraction of hosting what are essentially mailing lists over HTTP.
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  195. # [07:03] <Hixie> but knock yourself out :-)
  196. # [07:04] <erlehmann> mailing lists are serious business, almost by definition. and personalized. isn't easy to mail anonymous.
  197. # [07:04] <erlehmann> but the barrier to entry is low on web forms. (web forms 1.0, ha ha ha)
  198. # [07:05] <Hixie> (that's why we called it web forms 2 :-) )
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  200. # [07:05] <Hixie> e-mail is incredibly easy to make anonymous
  201. # [07:05] <Hixie> the underlying protocols have basically no authentication at all
  202. # [07:05] <Hixie> same with USENET
  203. # [07:06] <erlehmann> i met moot in 2009 at a conference. he said he wasn't so impressed about HTML5, but it might be a boon to YTMND, looping sounds without flash.
  204. # [07:06] <Hixie> makes sense
  205. # [07:06] <erlehmann> i am amazed i have not yet encountered a HTML5 based shock site. that would be awful.
  206. # [07:07] <Hixie> i never understood the people who are "impressed" by "html5"
  207. # [07:07] <Hixie> i mean, we're just continuing to evolve html
  208. # [07:07] <erlehmann> and work on iphones, hehe
  209. # [07:07] <Hixie> evolution is rarely impressive
  210. # [07:07] <erlehmann> well, like other imageboard people, the focus is on text and images. even canvas isn't something they are going to use soon.
  211. # [07:08] <Hixie> sure, why would they?
  212. # [07:08] <erlehmann> dunno, instant image macro creation?
  213. # [07:08] <Hixie> that'd be like an e-mail client or NNTP client having a built-in image editor, it'd be a bit weird
  214. # [07:08] <Hixie> *shrug*
  215. # [07:09] <erlehmann> hmm, for limited actions this is actually done. on iOS for example, images can be scaled before sending. useful, if you ask me (receiver of those mails)
  216. # [07:11] <erlehmann> but now that i think about it, i might just write a greasemonkey script for inline macro creation. yay for customilazipbilt- you know what i mean to mean.
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  219. # [07:29] <Hixie> down to six things to fill in for -129
  220. # [07:29] <Hixie> erlehmann: i guess
  221. # [07:29] <Hixie> (re e-mail clients)
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  223. # [07:29] <erlehmann> ah.
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  229. # [07:45] <Hixie> wtf? despite escalating http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493, the CP for the resulting issue actually does what I did in the spec in response to that bug...
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  232. # [07:52] <Hixie> four things.
  233. # [07:53] <Hixie> anyone want to take a crack at explaining why allowing <h1 role=checkbox> is bogus? I'm getting tired of doing this :-)
  234. # [07:55] <erlehmann> wat
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  236. # [07:58] <erlehmann> haha, the url is broken because of the appended comma. automagic linking hates your guts.
  237. # [07:58] <Hixie> or maybe your irc client is broken :-)
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  242. # [08:07] <erlehmann> Hixie, i think comma is not an unsafe character, but rather a special one. it can occur unencoded.
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  250. # [08:49] <Hixie> erlehmann: well my terminal client doesn't select the comma, so from a user perspective...
  251. # [08:50] <Hixie> ok, only one thing left on the CCP, the <h1 role=checkbox> bogosity thing.
  252. # [08:50] <Hixie> if anyone wants to fill that in while i'm sleeping, be my guest.
  253. # [08:50] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129
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  255. # [08:51] <erlehmann> Hixie, xchat does and i believe it is correct … for now ;)
  256. # [08:51] * erlehmann hopes Hixie is not the editor of the URL spec :D
  257. # [08:51] <Hixie> not currently
  258. # [08:52] <erlehmann> as in “not yet”, harr harr
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  261. # [08:56] <Evet> could you recommend a RIA IDE?
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  268. # [09:43] <Oddant> Hi
  269. # [09:44] <Oddant> what's the best way to create a website ? dreamweaver, classic enhanced notepads, cms ?
  270. # [09:47] <erlehmann> Oddant, depends on your skillset and the the complexity of the issue at hand.
  271. # [09:48] <erlehmann> for example, i have written small web pages in appropriate text editors, but also used wordpress. currently i am programming a web app in python.
  272. # [09:48] <erlehmann> i would advise you to stay clear of dreamweaver or notepad derivates. there are much better editors out there.
  273. # [09:49] <erlehmann> Oddant, if you found this IRC channel, maybe getting a text editor with HTML synthax highlighting and starting to code it by hand is not the worst idea, if it is not exceedingly complex.
  274. # [09:52] <erlehmann> as a text editor, i'd recommend geany <http://www.geany.org/> if you need a GUI editor or nano <http://www.nano-editor.org/> if you need a CLI editor.
  275. # [09:52] <erlehmann> also, ask other people. i might be wrong on this issue.
  276. # [09:56] <erlehmann> Oddant, before you start, however, keep in mind that although fun and learning are the primary goals of all Enrichment Center activities, serious injuries may occur. For your own safety and the safety of others, please refrain from [static noise]
  277. # [10:01] <erlehmann> *** Please be advised that a noticeable taste of blood is not part of any HTML specification, but is an unintended side effect of the WHATWG Parser Material Emancipation Grid, which may, in semi-rare cases, emancipate XML namespaces, bogus comments and fingertips. ***
  278. # [10:02] <erlehmann> The WHATWG reminds you that the HTML5lib Companion Serializer will never threaten to stab you and, in fact, cannot speak.
  279. # [10:02] <erlehmann> :D
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  281. # [10:06] <Oddant> thanks erlehmann
  282. # [10:07] <erlehmann> :)
  283. # [10:07] <Oddant> I'm french then I struggle to understand the whole
  284. # [10:07] <Oddant> but get the primary idea
  285. # [10:07] <erlehmann> Oddant, oh. that last thing was supposed to be a joke.
  286. # [10:07] <Oddant> ha ?
  287. # [10:08] <erlehmann> Oddant, about the safety issues ;)
  288. # [10:08] <erlehmann> Oddant, what operating system aro
  289. # [10:08] <erlehmann> e you on?
  290. # [10:09] <erlehmann> also, do you plan to learn HTML? or do you just want to create a web site? if the latter, just use a simple popular CMS, like wordpress.
  291. # [10:09] <Oddant> i'm using both
  292. # [10:09] <Oddant> window and linux
  293. # [10:10] <Oddant> but hey
  294. # [10:10] <Oddant> i already know html syntax
  295. # [10:10] <Oddant> moreover html5
  296. # [10:10] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  297. # [10:11] <erlehmann> Oddant, this might help with html5: <http://diveintohtml5.org/>
  298. # [10:12] <Oddant> hey nice website erlehmann
  299. # [10:12] <Oddant> thanks
  300. # [10:12] <Oddant> love the style
  301. # [10:15] <erlehmann> this link is especially funny http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0198.html
  302. # [10:15] <erlehmann> Jay C. Weber imagined the audio element, hehehe
  303. # [10:17] <Oddant> :
  304. # [10:17] <Oddant> :D
  305. # [10:18] <Oddant> this would be great
  306. # [10:19] * kinetik_ is now known as kinetik
  307. # [10:21] <Oddant> hey erlehmann
  308. # [10:21] <Oddant> are you still here ?
  309. # [10:21] <erlehmann> Oddant, still alive.
  310. # [10:22] <Oddant> i've got some questions to ask
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  312. # [10:22] <Oddant> ok let's assume i plan to build a website a to z
  313. # [10:23] <Oddant> i write my index page
  314. # [10:23] <Oddant> all the tags that constructs my page
  315. # [10:23] <Oddant> and after that
  316. # [10:23] <Oddant> i need to get into my css stylesheet
  317. # [10:24] <Oddant> ok generally when i reach that level i'm already lost into work
  318. # [10:24] <Oddant> i mean i never know where to begin the design of my page
  319. # [10:24] <Oddant> layouts ok !
  320. # [10:24] <Oddant> but the common style
  321. # [10:24] <Oddant> like body elements, link
  322. # [10:25] <Oddant> and i'm not talking about converting the new html5 elements into block display
  323. # [10:25] <Oddant> it's hell to build a website :-|
  324. # [10:26] <Oddant> then I was wondering maybe it could be a little better to use softwares like dreamweaver
  325. # [10:26] <Oddant> but i'm not sure about it since i've been told it's easier to make websites with but the code isn't neat, etc..
  326. # [10:28] <Oddant> what's your thoughts ?
  327. # [10:34] <erlehmann> Oddant, try to map out beforehand how your site is going to be structured. what is your specific problem area, building a stylesheet?
  328. # [10:35] <erlehmann> you may use firebug to experiment with styling then: <http://getfirebug.com/>
  329. # [10:35] <Oddant> kind of yes
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  331. # [10:36] <Oddant> but my primary issue is I never find the time to dive into a project for I feel like I want to build a bunch of websites
  332. # [10:36] <Oddant> :D
  333. # [10:37] <Oddant> also I all the time dive into projects on my very own
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  335. # [10:38] <erlehmann> Oddant, if you *do not have time*, just use a popular CMS, like wordpress: <http://wordpress.org/>
  336. # [10:38] <Oddant> i'd like to find people out to get into some projects
  337. # [10:38] <Oddant> would be the cool
  338. # [10:38] <erlehmann> however, if you want to learn, use aforementioned tools.
  339. # [10:38] <Oddant> what does aforementioned tools mean ?
  340. # [10:39] <Oddant> can you type some examples ?
  341. # [10:39] <Oddant> i'm using notepad++
  342. # [10:40] <erlehmann> examples of what?
  343. # [10:40] <Oddant> of aforementioned tools ?
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  345. # [10:40] <erlehmann> geany or nano. also firebug.
  346. # [10:41] <Oddant> oh yes
  347. # [10:41] <Oddant> ok
  348. # [10:41] <Oddant> thanks
  349. # [10:41] <Oddant> i'm going to be a few nosey
  350. # [10:41] <Oddant> but could you share your websites if you've got
  351. # [10:41] <Oddant> ?
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  360. # [10:52] <erlehmann> Oddant, i made this stylesheet. put on anaglyph glasses! blog.fefe.de/?css=http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/fefe-anaglyph-css/anaglyph.css
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  363. # [11:32] <annevk> I am looking for a somewhat decent graphics editor for Mac OS X
  364. # [11:32] <annevk> Anyone experience with http://www.pixelmator.com/ ?
  365. # [11:32] <annevk> It looks quite decent
  366. # [11:33] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  367. # [11:34] <erlehmann> annevk, vector or pixel graphics?
  368. # [11:34] <annevk> It also seems to be focused primarily on photos... Or is that just heavy marketing of the majority use case?
  369. # [11:35] <Rik`> it's a simple/macos-y photoshop
  370. # [11:35] <annevk> Pixels :)
  371. # [11:35] <annevk> Though if you know a good vector graphics editor, let me know!
  372. # [11:36] <erlehmann> i use inkscape. gimp for pixel graphics, but when do i need to do that?
  373. # [11:36] <annevk> Rik`, I never used Photoshop. I did use Macromedia Fireworks long ago
  374. # [11:37] <micheil> annevk: hicksdesign had a good comparison of the os x editors
  375. # [11:37] <annevk> I have used GIMP on Ubuntu, but did not really like it
  376. # [11:37] <Rik`> and on mac os, gimp and inkscape need X11 so…
  377. # [11:38] <erlehmann> i use gimp for scaling and cropping photos occasionally. nothing more, haha.
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  382. # [11:44] <annevk> micheil, http://hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/fireworks-alternatives-on-trial-acorn-drawit-and-opacity ?
  383. # [11:44] <micheil_mbp> i think so
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  394. # [12:30] * Joins: stvs (stvs@unaffiliated/stvs)
  395. # [12:30] <stvs> what do you guys think of the recent happenings with Google and H.264 support in Chrome, and so on?
  396. # [12:36] <annevk> plenty of discussion in the logs
  397. # [12:37] <stvs> annevk, what is the bird's eye view from #whatwg on the situation?
  398. # [12:39] <annevk> video codecs suck?
  399. # [12:39] <stvs> I was hoping for something more informative and/or insightful?
  400. # [12:39] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/why-webm has some info
  401. # [12:39] <Dashiva> There are a lot of big ifs
  402. # [12:40] <annevk> I think in general people here are in favor of a codec that is not encumbered with patents -- i.e. WebM
  403. # [12:40] <stvs> annevk, the title of this article shows bias
  404. # [12:40] <annevk> but yeah, there's ifs
  405. # [12:40] <stvs> I don't need to be told why "the web needs WebM" - we all know the talking points
  406. # [12:40] <annevk> ah well, then I am not sure what you are looking for
  407. # [12:41] <stvs> A neutral argumented opinion :)
  408. # [12:41] <annevk> good luck with that
  409. # [12:41] <stvs> You know the X264 core dev called VP8 "basically H.264 baseline profile with a better entropy encoder"
  410. # [12:41] <stvs> He says it's insane to think that VP8 is not stepping on H264's patents
  411. # [12:42] <Dashiva> Patents are for patent lawyers to handle
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  414. # [12:42] <stvs> It also managed to be about 25% slower
  415. # [12:42] <annevk> stvs, he is obviously not biased
  416. # [12:42] <stvs> Dashiva, if they are, why are we not uasing H.264
  417. # [12:42] <Dashiva> Because the patent lawyers already wrangled h264
  418. # [12:43] <stvs> annevk, he's not biased because he's under heat from MPEG LA for his work himself
  419. # [12:43] <stvs> annevk, but facts are facts.
  420. # [12:43] <stvs> annevk, in fact he implemented a VP8 decoder with H.264's code
  421. # [12:44] <stvs> Adding just a few kb for the vp8 specific parts
  422. # [12:44] <stvs> That should tell you enough
  423. # [12:44] <Peter`> I'm sure Google had lawyers all over VP8 before they bought the IP
  424. # [12:44] <annevk> stvs, I know that; I would still say he is biased
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  426. # [12:44] <stvs> Peter`, just like they had it over Android's Java knockoff? And then Oracle sued them.
  427. # [12:45] <Peter`> Yes, but that's Google's problem, not ours
  428. # [12:45] <stvs> Peter`, I'm not sure how good Google's lawyers are with reading C code of video codecs
  429. # [12:45] <stvs> Peter`, it is, because people give poorly argumented opinions in favor of WebM
  430. # [12:45] <Dashiva> stvs: Filing a suit is not the same as actually winning a suit
  431. # [12:45] <Peter`> I'm fairly sure they're way more thorough than a large part of the web developers combined
  432. # [12:45] <stvs> because it sounds "openish"
  433. # [12:45] <stvs> Dashiva, oh they'll win
  434. # [12:45] <stvs> Dashiva, or settle
  435. # [12:45] <stvs> I mean Oracle will.
  436. # [12:46] <Dashiva> Clearly we can just shut down the justice system and let you decide everything
  437. # [12:46] <Peter`> Fortunately you're not being biased yourself as well, stvs :-)
  438. # [12:46] <Rik`> stvs: to me it breaks down to Firefox and Opera won't implement H.264 so we need something else
  439. # [12:46] <stvs> Dashiva, let's say I'm about 85% sure they'll win or settle in favor of Oracle.
  440. # [12:46] <annevk> did you just join this channel so you could rant?
  441. # [12:47] <stvs> Rik`, Opera and Firefox could've stuck to the OS for providing the H.264 decoder. Included with every copy of OSX and Windows.
  442. # [12:47] <stvs> And Linux doesn't give a damn about licenses, they have x264
  443. # [12:47] <annevk> or maybe tell us how the world works?
  444. # [12:47] <Peter`> The web needs one common codec and it's not going to be H.264. I don't really care if it's WebM, Theora or whatever other codec, but pushing WebM more strongly is a step forward from where we are now.
  445. # [12:48] <annevk> If we would have suck to the OS it would not have been cross-platform
  446. # [12:48] <annevk> stuck*
  447. # [12:48] <annevk> that would not have been an improvement over the status quo imo
  448. # [12:48] <annevk> just replacing one problem with another
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  450. # [12:48] <Rik`> "Linux doesn't give a damn about licenses", that's a very unbiased statement…
  451. # [12:49] <stvs> annevk, user software always relies on the OS API-s for basically everything. How are codecs different
  452. # [12:49] <stvs> Rik`, I'm saying they use x264, despite not possibly having a valid H.264 license.
  453. # [12:49] <Rik`> stvs: Win XP is not coming with H.264 codecs
  454. # [12:49] <stvs> You're welcome to make it sound better Rik`
  455. # [12:49] <annevk> browsers are quite independent from the OS
  456. # [12:50] <annevk> that's e.g. what makes projects like Chromium OS possible
  457. # [12:50] <stvs> Chrome OS is Linux based annevk.
  458. # [12:50] <Rik`> stvs: x264 is legal in a large part of the world (not in the US of course)
  459. # [12:50] <annevk> and certainly when it comes to page rendering the only external running code has been plugins
  460. # [12:50] <stvs> Rik`, yes, indeed.
  461. # [12:50] <annevk> until video came along
  462. # [12:51] <stvs> annevk, that's really inaccurate.
  463. # [12:51] <annevk> stvs, sure, some amount of Linux code for hardware bindings
  464. # [12:51] <stvs> Yes
  465. # [12:52] <stvs> And for the user environment and APIs
  466. # [12:52] <annevk> stvs, inaccurate in what way? you mean that at some point you get OS-level calls?
  467. # [12:52] <stvs> And file system and kernel and so on.
  468. # [12:52] <stvs> It's Linux with Chrome on top and a custom shell.
  469. # [12:52] <stvs> That's Chrome OS
  470. # [12:52] <Peter`> lol, I wasn't aware Linux boots that fast.
  471. # [12:52] <annevk> what I mean is that the browser does processing of HTML, CSS, image formats, etc.
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  473. # [12:52] <Peter`> Chrome OS is a little bit more than just that, stvs
  474. # [12:53] <stvs> Peter`, of course it boots fast.
  475. # [12:53] <Peter`> The source-code is available, go have a look yourself. Your statement is nonsense
  476. # [12:53] <annevk> (though admittedly it differs for some browsers, e.g. WebKit uses platform libraries for images I think)
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  478. # [12:53] <stvs> Have you guys not seen some motherboards which have embeded Linux as alt-boot environment.
  479. # [12:53] <stvs> With a browser and some quick apps.
  480. # [12:53] <annevk> stvs, no man, we're morons
  481. # [12:53] <annevk> stvs, you must have realized that by now
  482. # [12:53] <stvs> annevk, why would you insult yourself now?
  483. # [12:54] <annevk> I was mocking you
  484. # [12:54] <stvs> annevk, yes, because?
  485. # [12:54] <stvs> Peter`, yes, you say that, but have you looked at it yourself? It builds on top of Debian Linux.
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  487. # [12:55] <annevk> stvs, I'm getting bored with this silly discussion
  488. # [12:55] <Peter`> Haha. I've got better things to do.
  489. # [12:55] <Rik`> stvs: so again, what's the purpose of your presence here ?
  490. # [12:55] <stvs> annevk, it's boring to be wildly inaccurate ;)
  491. # [12:55] <stvs> I'm not doing anything beside correcting your guys/gals :|
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  493. # [12:56] <stvs> Rik`, I was wondering if I could get an informed opinion on WebM
  494. # [12:56] <stvs> Maybe I could but not by the people currently present I think.
  495. # [12:56] <Rik`> you already have your opinion…
  496. # [12:56] <stvs> Rik`, I have no opinion. I've only cited facts, and have no opinion
  497. # [12:57] <annevk> lol
  498. # [12:57] <annevk> but Oracle is gonna win that lawsuit
  499. # [12:57] <annevk> fact
  500. # [12:57] <stvs> I have no idea what to make of this to be honest.
  501. # [12:57] <Rik`> sure, let's go do something else
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  595. # [18:47] <Oddant> hello
  596. # [18:47] <Oddant> i need some help for my website
  597. # [18:48] <Oddant> someone here ?
  598. # [18:49] <Oddant> well here's something that makes me really angry
  599. # [18:49] <Oddant> I can't figure out how make my menu neat
  600. # [18:49] <Oddant> i've got a <ul> menu
  601. # [18:49] <Oddant> with <li> elements
  602. # [18:50] <Oddant> and each <li> are <a>
  603. # [18:50] <Oddant> <ul> <li><a href=1>link1</a></li> <li><a href=2>link2</a></li> ... </ul> then
  604. # [18:51] <Oddant> clicking on one link bring you one the associated page
  605. # [18:51] <Oddant> and the current link get the css class .selected
  606. # [18:52] <Oddant> .selected { font-weight:bold; }
  607. # [18:52] <Oddant> but my issue applying this style is that the <li> elements get an offset
  608. # [18:52] <Oddant> of a bunch of pixels
  609. # [18:52] <Oddant> and it's not really neat
  610. # [18:54] <Oddant> what's the way to change to make it having a better looking
  611. # [18:54] <Oddant> ?
  612. # [18:54] <Oddant> thanks
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  640. # [19:52] <pluma> Oddant: might want to check #html instead
  641. # [19:52] <pluma> Oddant: or #css rather
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  675. # [21:30] <othermaciej> is there a spec for document.getSelection()?
  676. # [21:30] <othermaciej> it doesn't seem to be spec'd in HTML5
  677. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#apis-for-the-browsing-context-selection:-the-selection-interface
  678. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> It used to be in HTML5 but was broken out.
  679. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> (I don't think the spec is anywhere in W3C space.)
  680. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> I'm currently working on speccing various underspecified or misspecified aspects of it, currently extend() and then modify().
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  682. # [21:32] <othermaciej> I see
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  684. # [21:33] <othermaciej> I was going to point out to the A11Y TF that adding a <selection> element is pointless given the document.getSelection() interface
  685. # [21:33] <othermaciej> but now I have nothing to point to in w3c space
  686. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> Please, don't send them my way
  687. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Then toString() then createContextualFragment() then execCommand(), apparently. Actually, it looks like I'll be spending a couple of months of this.
  688. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Well, the spec used to be part of HTML. Why was it split out?
  689. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> createContextualFragment is specced
  690. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> Given that it's not being actively edited anyway, could it be merged back in?
  691. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, then that part will be easy. :)
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  693. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, do you know why DOM Range was split out of HTML5?
  694. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> Range was never in
  695. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  696. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Was Selection in?
  697. # [21:35] <Ms2ger> Selection because of the bugs you're fixing, I guess
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  699. # [21:36] <Ms2ger> And the deadline for pre-LC bugs
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  703. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, could we just stick it in the HTMLWG space as an ED?
  704. # [21:38] <othermaciej> who is "we" in that sentence?
  705. # [21:38] <othermaciej> the editors of the document are welcome to submit it
  706. # [21:38] <Ms2ger> I'm still waiting for a reply from the W3C lawyers they promised a few months ago
  707. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> What question did you ask the W3C lawyers?
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  711. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Since it seems like I'll be doing a bunch of DOM Range stuff over the next couple of months, I could be editor if an editor is needed to submit it, but probably only until August or so.
  712. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Regardless, a <selection> element is still pointless given getSelection(). Although I don't even know how an element would work, since selections don't have to be nested properly in the DOM.
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  714. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> . . . why is getSelection() so horrifyingly complicated? Sheesh.
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  728. # [22:25] <annevk> http://al3x.net/2011/01/15/user-hostile-platforms.html -- I cannot help but think that this applies to all platforms but the web
  729. # [22:25] <annevk> well, the user hostile part
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  736. # [23:05] <sephr> Is document.renameNode gone for good?
  737. # [23:05] <sephr> if so, what's the alternative?
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  740. # [23:07] <gsnedders> sephr: Nothing, the idea is that element names should be immutable
  741. # [23:08] <sephr> gsnedders: then why was it put in DOM 3?
  742. # [23:09] <sephr> also, there *is* an alternative but it's very costly
  743. # [23:10] <sephr> cloneNode(true) a node, then create a new one and setAttributeNodes on it and appendChildren from the clone
  744. # [23:10] <sephr> and then replaceNode
  745. # [23:18] <webben> AryehGregor: Re how <selection> could work with nesting. I think you could just have multiple selection elements where you need discontinuous ranges, whether thanks to non-adjacency or nesting.
  746. # [23:19] <annevk> sephr, DOM 3 was designed for servers
  747. # [23:19] <webben> AryehGregor: You'd probably need to spec some sort of behavior about joining adjacent <selection> elements for the purpose of keyboard modification of the selection.
  748. # [23:19] <annevk> sephr, I mean, non-browser software
  749. # [23:20] <sephr> annevk: what if I'm running this in commonjs with a DOM env?
  750. # [23:20] <webben> AryehGregor: ... assuming this markup is even meant to allow modification independent of script, which isn't clear to me.
  751. # [23:20] <sephr> on my server
  752. # [23:20] <annevk> then feel free to implement renameNode :)
  753. # [23:20] <sephr> annevk: so it *is* still valid to implement?
  754. # [23:20] <sephr> I thought it was invalidated a while ago
  755. # [23:20] <annevk> you can implement whatever you want as far as I'm concerned
  756. # [23:21] <sephr> I mean is it still part of the DOM?
  757. # [23:21] <annevk> it's not part of DOM Core
  758. # [23:21] <annevk> or part of the Web Platform
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  761. # [23:23] <annevk> sephr, what I mean is that on the server you can implement whatever you want
  762. # [23:23] <annevk> sephr, e.g. something much nicer than the DOM :)
  763. # [23:23] <annevk> the DOM is quite horrid
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  775. # [23:54] <annevk> holy shit
  776. # [23:54] <annevk> I think I am going to lock down some stuff in the WHATWG blog
  777. # [23:55] <annevk> I mean there is no spam going out but the amount of bogus drafted posts there are and amount of contributors...
  778. # [23:57] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  779. # Session Close: Mon Jan 17 00:00:00 2011

The end :)