/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 17 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] <annevk> so I just published this
  4. # [00:02] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/whatwg-weekly
  5. # [00:03] <annevk> it does not cover public-html, IRC, or html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  6. # [00:03] <annevk> ideally it will next time, I might right an addendum
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> nice
  8. # [00:03] <annevk> s/right/write/
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> add it to the same channel mark was using
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie> in case anyone subscribed to that
  11. # [00:04] <Rik`> annevk++
  12. # [00:04] <annevk> I wasn't sure whether that would be appropriate, but okay
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> i guarantee mark won't mind, and i can't see any other reason not to do it
  14. # [00:04] <annevk> great
  15. # [00:05] * Rik` really enjoys public summaries of group activities
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  17. # [00:10] <karlcow> ah, excellent anne
  18. # [00:10] * oojacoboo_ is now known as oojacoboo
  19. # [00:11] <Rik`> oh, I started my webkit's week 3 days before mark started "this week in html5"
  20. # [00:11] <Rik`> I thought I started it after that
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  22. # [00:12] <annevk> so there's two WebKit summaries?
  23. # [00:12] * annevk only new about the one from Peter
  24. # [00:12] <Rik`> no, was 2 years ago
  25. # [00:12] <annevk> oh okay
  26. # [00:12] <annevk> if anyone wants a WHATWG blog account just ask on IRC
  27. # [00:13] <annevk> the current policy creates a gigantic mess
  28. # [00:13] <annevk> I mean former policy
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  31. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> annevk, Web DOM Core doesn't define things like "parent" and "ancestor"?
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  33. # [00:28] <annevk> see the Nodes Model thingie
  34. # [00:28] <annevk> that needs some more text
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  39. # [00:37] <annevk> I'm adding this to the WHATWG Blog: http://twitoaster.com/wordpress-plugin/
  40. # [00:38] <annevk> This includes giving access to a third-party to the WHATWG twitter account via OAuth
  41. # [00:38] <annevk> Let me know if you notice something bad happening
  42. # [00:39] <Hixie> so can i convince anyone to fill in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129#Bug_10449:_Allow_an_H1_element_to_be_described_as_a_spinbutton_or_checkbox.2C_etc ? :-)
  43. # [00:39] <Hixie> i did the rest of the ccp :-)
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  47. # [00:44] <annevk> hmm uses bit.ly
  48. # [00:44] <annevk> oh well
  49. # [00:45] <annevk> this means we also get http://twitoaster.com/country-in/whatwg/
  50. # [00:45] <annevk> but it does not seem to track any WebAppsTweet posts?
  51. # [00:46] <annevk> it also thinks "The Web" is located in India
  52. # [00:46] <annevk> oh well
  53. # [00:46] <Dashiva> Where is Web 2.0 located?
  54. # [00:49] <annevk> heh
  55. # [00:49] <annevk> we'll find out if it works when we next post something
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  61. # [01:00] <annevk> Peter`, btw, I think you should remove the quotation marks around the headings of posts
  62. # [01:01] <annevk> Peter`, unless it makes sense in a way I have not considered that is
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  69. # [01:34] <paul_irish> annevk: incredible post. please do that again.
  70. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> annevk++
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  72. # [01:39] <webben> annevk: Very useful even for those of us who make some headway against the deluge of standards mail. Thank you :)
  73. # [01:39] <nessy> thanks for mentioning me ;-)
  74. # [01:40] <nessy> it's great to see it all together!
  75. # [01:41] <nessy> or which of the annevk posts of recent are we talking about… (blog… email … too much goodness to count!)
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  77. # [01:55] <Hixie> ok, i finished http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129
  78. # [01:55] <Hixie> looking for someone to review it
  79. # [01:56] <Hixie> before i submit it
  80. # [01:56] <Hixie> deadline is tuesday.
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  84. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> Okay, so when you're extending to something that's not in the same tree, it just replaces the selection's start and end with the target point . . . but sets the direction of the selection to backwards? Seriously?
  85. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> Why backwards?
  86. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> (in Firefox)
  87. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> (I can't figure out what WebKit is doing here)
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  89. # [02:09] <AryehGregor> (the entire API is broken and insane, and WebKit's implementation is even more broken and insane)
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  91. # [02:13] <Hixie> sounds like the dnd api
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  94. # [02:18] <AryehGregor> It seems like in WebKit, after selection.addRange(range), it is not necessarily true that range == selection.getRangeAt(0). This means that among other things, I can't figure out how to determine the direction of a selection . . .
  95. # [02:18] <AryehGregor> Actually, I can't figure out how to modify selections reliably at all in WebKit.
  96. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> Okay, hmm, maybe it just doesn't like ranges that aren't in the document . . . ?
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  98. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess WebKit just gets to fail a whole bunch of extra tests.
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  102. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> Yay, I finally found some Gecko behavior that made so little sense that I just ignored it and specced what made sense.
  103. # [02:49] <AryehGregor> (Doesn't seem to have appreciable likelihood of compat issues.)
  104. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> (Although heaven only knows for sure . . .)
  105. # [02:50] <AryehGregor> Okay, I'm off to bed.
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  111. # [03:20] * MikeSmith reads webben mail
  112. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> well written
  113. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> indeed great if AI Squared are in fact going to get more involved
  114. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> continues to be pretty ridiculous that Freedom Scientific doesn't
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  117. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> http://rumpetroll.com/
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  119. # [03:40] <bga_|away> http://www.linux.fm/
  120. # [03:40] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  121. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> wow
  122. # [03:45] <bga_> webkit.fm!
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  202. # [09:23] <a-ja> anyone: when's Tab normally around?
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  206. # [09:38] <Hixie> a-ja: weekdays, UTC-8
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  208. # [09:39] <a-ja> tks Hixie, kinda what i figured.
  209. # [09:40] <a-ja> not whatwg-related. css3-images thing
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  217. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/HashInURI-20110115#ViolateW3CSpecs claims that sites are using processing of fragment identifiers that violates RFC 2854
  218. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> but I can't see that RFC 2854 actually defines any processing behavior at all
  219. # [10:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: what's the deadline on CCPs for ISSUE-130? the issue-status page doesn't say
  220. # [10:09] <asmodai> hah, awesome http://w3fools.com/
  221. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no deadline listed at http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-130
  222. # [10:11] * MikeSmith checks archive to see if previous mail gave one
  223. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: February 12th
  224. # [10:12] <Hixie> issue-status seems way out of date
  225. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> it seems
  226. # [10:12] <Hixie> k, thanks
  227. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jan/0117.html
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  229. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> man, there are exactly two paragraphs about fragment IDs in RFC 2854
  230. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> 96 words
  231. # [10:20] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  232. # [10:21] <hsivonen> soo. If I have a <video> element in Konqueror that support <video> but not the format of the file I'm using
  233. # [10:21] <hsivonen> and I call .play()
  234. # [10:21] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.40.254)
  235. # [10:21] <hsivonen> Konqueror doesn't fire an error event on the <video>
  236. # [10:21] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to know if it fires something else?
  237. # [10:22] <hsivonen> or do I need to work with readystates and timeouts?
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  245. # [11:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you're using <video src=""> or <video><source src="">?
  246. # [11:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: src
  247. # [11:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: <video src=""> that is
  248. # [11:01] <annevk> (thanks for all the Internet karma everyone -- will write again)
  249. # [11:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: should I expect <source> to work better? I was guessing it offered more opportunity for bugs.
  250. # [11:02] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.110) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  251. # [11:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok. the reason i ask is that for <source>, error is fired on the source element, not the video element
  252. # [11:02] <zcorpan> per spec, no idea about in konq
  253. # [11:03] <hsivonen> Aside: the Konq "controls" UI sucks
  254. # [11:03] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ftp.reference.be)
  255. # [11:03] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  256. # [11:04] <Hixie> ok i sent out the CCP for -129
  257. # [11:07] <annevk> that's a long change proposal :)
  258. # [11:07] <Hixie> oh hey the deadline for -120 is coming up. I guess I'd better write that up.
  259. # [11:07] <Hixie> that's the one about removing xmlns="" and co from rdfa
  260. # [11:07] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.110)
  261. # [11:08] <annevk> do you think it's worthwhile changing RDFa?
  262. # [11:09] <annevk> to me it sort of falls in the same category as people wishing to use XForms or XHTML 2.0
  263. # [11:10] <Hixie> i just want namespaces out of text/html
  264. # [11:10] <annevk> yeah, admittedly that is kind of sucky
  265. # [11:11] <annevk> and people using RDFa as an argument that it is possible, while really it is not (although they are quite persistent about not grasping what is actually going on)
  266. # [11:11] <Hixie> yeah
  267. # [11:11] <Hixie> (and yeah)
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  271. # [11:15] <hsivonen> annevk: xmlns in RDFa is an error committed into REC after the W3C welcomed HTML5 into the W3C
  272. # [11:15] <hsivonen> annevk: XForms went to REC before that time
  273. # [11:15] <Hixie> "welcomed"
  274. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm trying to be polite here
  275. # [11:15] <Hixie> ah, my bad :-)
  276. # [11:16] <jgraham> Where is createContextualFragment specified these days? In one of the things that AryehGregor is working on?
  277. # [11:17] <Hixie> right. bed time now. i'll work on tilting at windmills on tuesday.
  278. # [11:17] <Hixie> nn
  279. # [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: in one of the specs Ms2ger is working on
  280. # [11:19] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.110) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  281. # [11:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks. Life was so much easier in the past when the answer to "who's specifying this" was either "No one" or "Hixie"
  282. # [11:22] <jgraham> Now it is "No one: or "Hixie" or "One of Hixie's minions". Which is just confusing.
  283. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> we need to get some greater diversity into this work
  284. # [11:24] * Joins: payman (~payman@pat.se.opera.com)
  285. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> maybe I can recruit some of the yakuza guys who I chat with now and then at my sento
  286. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> those dudes know how to get stuff done
  287. # [11:27] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM114-48-94-150.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  288. # [11:31] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Maybe they could work on HyBi :)
  289. # [11:31] <jgraham> s/HyBi/Websockets/
  290. # [11:32] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.121)
  291. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yes
  292. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> now we're on to something
  293. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> we should brainstorm more often, make magic like this
  294. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I think you had it right the first time
  295. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> Websockets is fine, basically
  296. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> the problem lies elsewhere…
  297. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> if the hybi mailing list had a theme song, I wonder what it would be
  298. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> for example, that whatwg theme song is "Teenage Dream" by T. Rex
  299. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> especially the chorus ("What ever happened to the teenage dream?")
  300. # [11:38] <webr3> MikeSmith, something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydVp-2B8qlw
  301. # [11:38] <jgraham> Somehow the first song that comes to mind is "Heavn Knows I'm Miserable Now"
  302. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> heh
  303. # [11:38] <webr3> see 0:49
  304. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> they shouldn't mock the tuba
  305. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> the tube is pope ratzinger's favorite instrument
  306. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> he says its that instrument which is most like the voice of god
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  309. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> the pope is also really fond of the Amen Break
  310. # [11:44] <webr3> hixie, hsivonen, annevk - can you quickly sum up the problem with namespaces (under whatever guise, not just the xmlns variant) for me?
  311. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> but not for the reason you would think
  312. # [11:47] <annevk> webr3, did you review http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Namespace_confusion ?
  313. # [11:48] <annevk> I updated the posting rules: http://blog.whatwg.org/submit-article
  314. # [11:48] <webr3> annevk, cheers - not in a while, I'll re-read just now
  315. # [11:49] <webr3> quick q, is xmlns support in, or out, of "HTML 5"
  316. # [11:49] <annevk> Basically one of the nine administrators has to set up an account for someone if they want to post an article on the WHATWG blog
  317. # [11:49] <annevk> webr3, there's no xmlns support in the XML sense in the HTML syntax
  318. # [11:50] <jgraham> webr3: Well you can use XMLNS in XHTML5
  319. # [11:50] * Parts: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254)
  320. # [11:50] <jgraham> But there is no namespace support in HTML5 in general
  321. # [11:50] <webr3> so, if xmlns was only support when RDFa is used in X-whatever, would that help?
  322. # [11:51] <annevk> xmlns is in a different namespace in HTML
  323. # [11:51] <annevk> so it is not the same
  324. # [11:51] <annevk> it's not in a namespace, to be pedentaic
  325. # [11:51] <annevk> pedantic
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  332. # [12:02] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think, however that the final naswer must be "let Down"
  333. # [12:02] <jgraham> s/let/Let/
  334. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> the pope?
  335. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> yeah, what a chump that clown is
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  343. # [12:10] <jgraham> MikeSmith: No, before that :) The Pope could hardly be a disappointment. That would imply some level of expectation
  344. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> heh
  345. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> but he out-clowns the previous guy
  346. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> and that's an achievement
  347. # [12:11] * Joins: Evet (~Evet@78.185.80.15)
  348. # [12:11] * anttio_ is now known as anttio
  349. # [12:11] <annevk> Lachy, can you take a look at http://blog.whatwg.org/wp-admin/upload.php ?
  350. # [12:11] <hsivonen> Aargh! Windows Genuine Disadvantage! My properly purchased copy of Windows 7 Professional suddenly tells me it's not genuine upon booting. Booted fine earlier today.
  351. # [12:11] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, editors and commitee chairs should try to do the same thing!
  352. # [12:12] <annevk> Lachy, it seems all media resources are incorrectly linked
  353. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> they're seriously gonna make that joker an official saint… kind of like giving the Nobel Peace Prize to President Predator Drone
  354. # [12:13] <hsivonen> ok. then I clicked Get Genuine and it changed its mind and decided it was Genuine already.
  355. # [12:17] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  356. # [12:19] <Philip`> Sainthood requires miracles to have been performed that are scientifically inexplicable, but it seems they only require one or two instances - I think they ought to have a higher standard and require statistically significant evidence of miraculous healing among people who pray to the would-be saint compared to a control group of atheists, to rule out coincidence
  357. # [12:21] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, little known is the fact that it was the “Nobel War is Peace Price” ;)
  358. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> heh
  359. # [12:21] <erlehmann> :D
  360. # [12:28] <jgraham> Philip`: If the church was to embrace the scientific method to that extent, would it not lead them to Occam's razor, which advises against adopting hypotheses such as "everything is controlled by an all-powerful, yet unverifiable, being"
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  365. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> I feel sorry for the saints that nobody prays too
  366. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> those ones must get depressed sometimes
  367. # [12:34] <pluma> Stop antropomorphicizing fictional characters and dead people
  368. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> no point of going to all the trouble to live and perform miracles and then die and in spite of all your efforts nobody ask for your help
  369. # [12:35] <pluma> I think saints need post-mortem miracles.
  370. # [12:35] <pluma> Not during their lifetime.
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  376. # [12:41] <MikeSmith> sometimes demons do miracles in the name of a particular saint so that people will pray to that saint, but in reality the demon has set of a man-in-the-middle exploit and when you pray to that saint, all the traffic is redirected to that demon instead, and he gets all the linkage and google rank and ad juice instead
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  386. # [12:48] <annevk> MikeSmith, hahaha
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  389. # [12:50] <Lachy> annevk, ok, I'll take a look at it later. Not sure what's going on, but it's probably a bug in WordPress
  390. # [12:50] <Lachy> hmm, unless the files were lost somehow
  391. # [12:53] <annevk> it seems the links first go to http and then a local directory
  392. # [12:53] <annevk> also
  393. # [12:53] <annevk> for me ssh blog.whatwg.org broke
  394. # [12:54] <Lachy> ssh works for me. what username are you using?
  395. # [12:54] <annevk> annevk
  396. # [12:55] <annevk> I get this
  397. # [12:55] <annevk> The RSA host key for blog.whatwg.org has changed,
  398. # [12:55] <annevk> and the key for the corresponding IP address 69.163.222.251
  399. # [12:55] <annevk> is unknown. This could either mean that
  400. # [12:55] <annevk> DNS SPOOFING is happening or the IP address for the host
  401. # [12:55] <annevk> and its host key have changed at the same time.
  402. # [12:56] <Lachy> no, the blog is under the my username lhunt and the wiki is under whatwikiuser.
  403. # [12:57] <Lachy> your key is in the authorized_keys file, so lhunt@whatwg.org should work for you
  404. # [12:57] <annevk> interesting
  405. # [12:57] <annevk> thanks
  406. # [12:58] <Lachy> I checked, those images are missing from the wp-content/uploads/ directory.
  407. # [12:58] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.108) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  408. # [12:58] <Lachy> they must have somehow been missed during an upgrade and overwritten
  409. # [12:59] <Lachy> not sure how though, cause I always copied wp-content/* whenever I did that
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  413. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> oh, I thought "Growl" was what the native notification mechanism in Mac OSX is called
  414. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> but I guess it's not
  415. # [13:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there's no native mechanism, is there?
  416. # [13:09] <MikeSmith> oh
  417. # [13:09] <annevk> yeah, they don't do notifications
  418. # [13:09] <hsivonen> but everyone who wants one installs Growl
  419. # [13:09] <jgraham> But lots of apps support growl
  420. # [13:10] <jgraham> So it is kind of a de-facto standard
  421. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> well, what is is that apps use to pop up notification windows that oveher appsrlay ot
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  423. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> I didn't think I had Growl installed
  424. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> maybe I do
  425. # [13:10] * MikeSmith checks
  426. # [13:10] <jgraham> If by "standard" you mean "used by most of twenty-something mac users in the bay area"
  427. # [13:10] <jgraham> "twenty-something" in age, not in number
  428. # [13:10] <MikeSmith> heh
  429. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> well, I got Growl.. so I guess that's what the apps I have that do it are using
  430. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> and I guess I wasn't wrong after all
  431. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> yay me
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  435. # [13:23] <annevk> almost makes sense MikeSmith :)
  436. # [13:23] <annevk> your tweet
  437. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> I'm trying
  438. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> "overtollige" is a great word
  439. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> anyway, sometimes it's more fun to halfway make sense than it is to fully make sense
  440. # [13:28] <annevk> hahaha
  441. # [13:28] <annevk> "dicht genoeg"
  442. # [13:29] <annevk> I guess this is what the Dutch deserve for literally translating Dutch sentences into English :)
  443. # [13:29] <annevk> brilliant
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  446. # [13:35] <hsivonen> In case anyone wishes to contribute, http://webm.html5.org/ needs a better test clip (shorter, like one second, and maybe showing the text WebM fading in)
  447. # [13:36] <hsivonen> (I put whatever .webm file I happened to have there as a placeholder)
  448. # [13:36] <hsivonen> also, in case anyone wishes to contribute, it needs some fancy CSS
  449. # [13:43] <hsivonen> (I didn't put any logos there, because I don't want to deal with copyright and trademark issues)
  450. # [13:46] <hsivonen> Also, I'd be interested in how to best forward-compatibly code around Konqueror's brokenness
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  452. # [13:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: nice
  453. # [13:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  454. # [13:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which events do you get in konq?
  455. # [13:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know
  456. # [13:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not the ones I listen for
  457. # [13:51] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you could listen for all events the spec mentions and see what you get
  458. # [13:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess I'll have to try that :-(
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  460. # [13:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/780
  461. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: very nice! thanks
  462. # [13:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no events at all on Ubuntu
  463. # [13:59] <karlcow> MikeSmith: your answer about the fragment id is at http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#h-12.2.4
  464. # [13:59] <karlcow> it is in HTML 4.01
  465. # [13:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no events on Fedora, either
  466. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> karlcow: nope it's not
  467. # [13:59] <karlcow> >A reference to an unavailable or unidentifiable resource is an error. Although user agents may vary in how they handle such an error,
  468. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  469. # [14:00] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't get anything logged in safari either, which is weird
  470. # [14:00] <karlcow> hmmm indeed talking about resources
  471. # [14:00] <karlcow> but not fragment ids
  472. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  473. # [14:00] <karlcow> maybe the misunderstanding comes from here
  474. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> the misunderstanding comes from the fact that it was never really specified, despite what that TAG draft seems to claim
  475. # [14:04] <karlcow> yep yep. There are a few mistakes to fix in the draft. I identified typos too.
  476. # [14:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh now i got some events in safari.. but no error event
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  483. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> http://www.openpr.com/news/158592/Marco-Reversible-Pumps-Boat-Horns-Introduced-to-US-Market-via-HTML5-Portal-by-Miami-Web-Designer.html
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  493. # [14:41] <annevk> hmm
  494. # [14:41] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  495. # [14:41] <annevk> so now if I update an old blog post to fix an error a tweet gets posted
  496. # [14:41] <annevk> I thought that would only happen when publishing...
  497. # [14:41] <annevk> bah
  498. # [14:43] <annevk> teh people from twitters are not offended so far fortunately
  499. # [14:44] * Philip` assumes anyone who uses Twitter much is already adept at ignoring repeated information
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  518. # [16:18] <annevk> so now I have some "old" HTC Android phone as well
  519. # [16:18] <annevk> iPhone broke down teehee
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  521. # [16:20] <annevk> not as nice, but reasonable
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  523. # [16:22] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  524. # [16:26] <annevk> also, having contacts and calendar in the cloud is gold
  525. # [16:26] <annevk> no computer needed for setup
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  529. # [16:28] <annevk> oh, and the phone can update itself
  530. # [16:28] <hsivonen> annevk: what does "old" in quotes mean here?
  531. # [16:29] <annevk> it means it was EUR 200 and not 500
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  533. # [16:30] <annevk> it's a white phone and only says "htc" and "WITH HTC SENSE" on the back
  534. # [16:30] * annevk goes to look on the box
  535. # [16:30] * Joins: Aleoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss)
  536. # [16:31] <annevk> HTC Wildfire
  537. # [16:31] <hsivonen> that's not so old. it's just otherwise designed for a less expensive price point
  538. # [16:32] <hsivonen> annevk: it has an older CPU ISA
  539. # [16:32] <hsivonen> ARM v6 as opposed to v7
  540. # [16:32] <hsivonen> does Opera run on v6?
  541. # [16:32] <hsivonen> Firefox wants v7
  542. # [16:32] <annevk> I have no idea
  543. # [16:32] <Rik`> hsivonen: I think Opera runs on V6
  544. # [16:33] <hsivonen> Rik`: do they only ship a v6 binary or do they ship two binaries so that v7 users get faster code?
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  546. # [16:33] <Rik`> I have no idea
  547. # [16:34] <hsivonen> when my SIM broke and I thought my phone broke, I considered buying a HTC Wildfire, but then I learned Firefox doesn't run on it
  548. # [16:34] <annevk> I'm a bit displeased with t-mobile for not just setting me up with a temporary phone, but on the other I'm glad I can still use the same SIM while it is in repairs
  549. # [16:34] <slartsa> super.onActivityResult(requestCode,
  550. # [16:34] <slartsa> argh
  551. # [16:34] <annevk> things could be worse
  552. # [16:34] <hsivonen> and then I learned that my SIM was broken so I didn't have to buy a new phone
  553. # [16:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yes, I think it does (Opera)
  554. # [16:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok
  555. # [16:35] <annevk> hsivonen, ah
  556. # [16:35] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, they tested a new SIM first, but it is something with the Phone app on the iPhone apparently
  557. # [16:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: does any flavor of Opera Mobile support WebM yet?
  558. # [16:35] <annevk> HTC power adapter is also less elegant
  559. # [16:36] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm looking forward to your findings on how well a touch UI works with a small screen
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  561. # [16:36] <annevk> so far it's not too bad
  562. # [16:37] <annevk> it gives some kind of feedback by trilling which is really quite nice
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  564. # [16:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/productspecs/
  565. # [16:38] <daedb> hah, you've got the same phone as I do now (except mine isn't white) :p
  566. # [16:38] <hsivonen> I want a small phone that runs Firefox and an e-Ink tablet that runs Firefox. apparently neither device exists.
  567. # [16:38] <annevk> Galaxy Tab is quite nice
  568. # [16:39] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks. so "no"
  569. # [16:39] <annevk> they had one in the store and since the waiting times were ridiculous I could play around a bit
  570. # [16:39] <hsivonen> annevk: Galaxy Tab sucks in the landscape mode
  571. # [16:39] <hsivonen> also, I expect e-Ink to beat LCD for reading
  572. # [16:40] <annevk> if you just get very high DPI, will e-Ink still be good?
  573. # [16:40] <annevk> because e-Ink is fricking slow
  574. # [16:40] <annevk> at least last I looked at it; no way you would get YouTube
  575. # [16:41] <hsivonen> as I understand it, the main differentiating factor (apart from slowness and lack of color) is non-glare and no backlight
  576. # [16:41] <hsivonen> my tablet needs don't include YouTube
  577. # [16:42] <hsivonen> I'm inclined to believe the claims that reading from an LCD right before trying to sleep disrupts sleep
  578. # [16:42] <hsivonen> in a way that paper and e-Ink don't
  579. # [16:42] <annevk> if I ever had a tablet I would expect to read reddit on it and all what reddit entails
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  581. # [16:45] * hsivonen wonders what Opera Mobile 10 (general) runs on
  582. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> Opera can run on ARM 6
  583. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> Opera can be made to run on anything
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  585. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> it could run on whatever CPU they have in sewing machines
  586. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> the original Nintendo DS had a 66 MHz CPU
  587. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> and Opera ran on that
  588. # [16:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh, I don't doubt that Opera can be compiled for v6. I was curious if a v6-compatible build ships.
  589. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> oh
  590. # [16:47] <hsivonen> (I have Opera Mobile 10.1 beta on v6 on N800)
  591. # [16:47] <Philip`> Could it run on the Apollo landing computer?
  592. # [16:48] <annevk> I guess the other thing that is kind of nice is the size of this phone. It's not as huge as all the others
  593. # [16:49] <annevk> Philip`, just have to convince NASA that all bugs are features
  594. # [16:50] <jgraham> hsivonen: Did you update the gecko innerHTML serilization algorithm?
  595. # [16:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: no
  596. # [16:51] <jgraham> hmm
  597. # [16:51] * Quits: botz0r (~botz0r@91.182.129.139) (Remote host closed the connection)
  598. # [16:51] * hsivonen now spots the (general) is 10 not 10.1
  599. # [16:51] <hsivonen> that makes more sense
  600. # [16:52] <jgraham> Seems like neither Chrome nor Fx add a line break before the text in a <pre> (or similar) element in innerHTML
  601. # [16:53] <hsivonen> :-(
  602. # [16:53] <jgraham> (Or Opera 11)
  603. # [16:53] <jgraham> Makes me nervous about changing it…
  604. # [16:56] <annevk> I wonder what all the fuss is about with regards to not being able to update Android phones... Is that a US thing?
  605. # [16:58] * Quits: Evet (~Evet@78.185.80.15) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  606. # [16:58] <daedb> annevk: It depends on phone manufacturer... some of them are good, some are bad at offering updates.
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  608. # [16:59] <hsivonen> annevk: It's not just a U.S. thing
  609. # [16:59] <hsivonen> annevk: basically, Google isn't acting like a proper OS vendor but is acting like a whitelabel technology provider as far as updates go
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  612. # [17:05] <hsivonen> that Google doesn't insist on being able to push OTA Android updates to end users is a bit odd when the Chrome side hypes how they intend to update Chrome OS
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  615. # [17:11] <annevk> the way they do Chrome is awesome
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  620. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> the JS Date object needs a few more methods
  621. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> 42 methods just doesn't seem like enough
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  626. # [17:40] <jgraham> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN" ""> is not supposed to be treated as having the system id missing, is it?
  627. # [17:44] <jwalden> do gradients have an intrinsic aspect ratio? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#gradients mentions ratios only in one narrow case, in a way that suggests this wasn't really a deliberate definition
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  660. # [18:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: Indeed.
  661. # [18:28] <jgraham> The system id thing?
  662. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Yeah.
  663. # [18:28] <jgraham> Who wants webkit bugs?
  664. # [18:28] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@wiport2ucb389.univ-lyon1.fr) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  665. # [18:28] <gsnedders> For the parser? abarth|zZz, IIRC.
  666. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Or at least he was one of the people involved in it.
  667. # [18:28] <jgraham> abarth|zZz, eric_carlson: You have a bug with not setting the right compatMode where the SYSTEM ID is the empty string
  668. # [18:29] <eric_carlson> jgraham: ???
  669. # [18:29] * jgraham loves TCs where the failure mode is "screen is blank"
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  671. # [18:29] <jgraham> eric_carlson: Am I confusing you with someone else?
  672. # [18:30] <jgraham> Oh, look at that, I am
  673. # [18:30] <jgraham> Sorry
  674. # [18:30] <eric_carlson> jgraham: np!
  675. # [18:30] <jgraham> I wanted Eric Seidel :)
  676. # [18:31] <eric_carlson> jgraham: indeed, another Eric that works on WebKit
  677. # [18:33] <jgraham> There should be a limit of one person per unique first name per browser project. A bit like the way the actors guilds require unique names
  678. # [18:34] <Philip`> Does added punctuation count as a distinct name?
  679. # [18:34] <eric_carlson> fine with me as long as eseidel is willing to change his name :-P
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  688. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> I'm completely in favor of that rule.
  689. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Actually, I'd like to require it freenode-wide.
  690. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> I originally wanted "aryeh" as my nick, but someone else took it. :(
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  692. # [18:58] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, there were multiple people called James at Opera recently :P
  693. # [19:00] <jgraham> gsnedders: Exactly. jamesl had to change his name or leave. He left.
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  696. # [19:04] <annevk> same happened with my namesake
  697. # [19:06] <gsnedders> At least there's only one Geoffrey ^^
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  705. # [19:19] <karlcow> http://al3x.net/2011/01/15/user-hostile-platforms.html
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  725. # [19:47] * AryehGregor is now known as Aryeh|use_email
  726. # [19:47] <Aryeh|use_email> Public service announcement: I'll be in Israel for about a week, so I might not see anything said here for a long time if ever, even if you mention my name. Try e-mail instead if you want to contact me. (I might drop in as AryehGregor from my laptop.)
  727. # [19:48] <annevk> have fun
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  793. # [21:54] <a-ja> TabAtkins: ping (re css3-images / webkit implementation. suggest somewhere else to discuss?)
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  826. # [22:32] <annevk> one thing someone pointed out to me
  827. # [22:33] <annevk> this screen sucks donkey balls compared to the iPhone
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  829. # [22:34] <annevk> steering away from the politics, eh, Peter`? ;)
  830. # [22:34] <Peter`> Yeah
  831. # [22:35] <annevk> Peter`, not sure if you saw it the other day, but the quotation marks around your headings, what is the reason for that?
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  833. # [22:35] <Peter`> I designed my blog
  834. # [22:35] <Peter`> that should basically answer your question
  835. # [22:35] <krijnh> Oeh, I love that design!
  836. # [22:35] <krijnh> Can I download the template somewhere?
  837. # [22:36] <annevk> Peter`, haha
  838. # [22:36] <annevk> okay
  839. # [22:36] <krijnh> I heard HTML5 makes downloading templates a lot easier
  840. # [22:36] <Peter`> I'll remove them
  841. # [22:36] <Peter`> thar done
  842. # [22:36] <annevk> krijnh, HTML5 also saves kittens
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  844. # [22:36] <krijnh> :o
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  846. # [22:37] <annevk> every time someone uses HTML5
  847. # [22:37] <annevk> God saves a kitten
  848. # [22:37] <pesla> And he kills a little puppy.
  849. # [22:37] <krijnh> Luckily every time IE crashes, he kills another one
  850. # [22:37] <annevk> pesla, ssh
  851. # [22:38] <pesla> annevk: I saw it happen!
  852. # [22:38] <krijnh> Ow, wait, sorry, God in #whatwg context is of course Hixie.. He doesn't kill kittens nor puppies
  853. # [22:39] <Hixie> good grief
  854. # [22:39] <krijnh> He talks!
  855. # [22:39] <pesla> He kills non-Hixie-conforming specs
  856. # [22:39] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  857. # [22:40] <krijnh> So Hixie, when do you think this HTML5 thing you came up with is going to fly?
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  868. # [23:00] <karlcow> http://www.core77.com/blog/technology/using_kinect_mit_media_lab_pulls_off_gesture-based_web_browsing_with_more_on_the_horizon_18276.asp
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  870. # [23:03] <annevk> that URL looks like a scam
  871. # [23:04] <annevk> underscores, random number, weird words, core77.com?!
  872. # [23:04] <annevk> ah I see, "design magazine"
  873. # [23:05] <annevk> fun video though
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  881. # [23:13] <thiessenp> HTML5 vs HTML4 - are DOM mutations identical? What I mean is any new behaviour described from DHTML insertions etc. in the HTML5 spec?
  882. # [23:13] <annevk> browsers only implement HTML5
  883. # [23:14] <annevk> and with regards to mutation events, I think there's still a vague plan to change them
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  885. # [23:14] <annevk> though whether that'll work out is unclear
  886. # [23:15] <thiessenp> any idea where I could read up on this?
  887. # [23:16] <annevk> archives of public-webapps
  888. # [23:16] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ around November I think
  889. # [23:16] <annevk> and maybe before
  890. # [23:17] <thiessenp> great thanks (will start reading) but off hand the DOM is currently treated the same way in HTML5 as in HTML4 element.innerHTML, parent.appendChild etc.?
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  892. # [23:19] <krijnh> Ja
  893. # [23:19] <krijnh> Er is maar een HTML
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  905. # [23:48] <erlehmann> is there an easier way to change my subscription mail address to the WHATWG list than stopping to subscribe and resubscribing?
  906. # [23:48] <erlehmann> I cannot into mailing lists.
  907. # [23:49] <Hixie> i believe the mailman software keys off your e-mail address so you can't change it
  908. # [23:49] <Hixie> you have to unsub, resub
  909. # [23:49] <Hixie> but that's pretty easy to do
  910. # [23:50] <erlehmann> thx. brb
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  917. # Session Close: Tue Jan 18 00:00:00 2011

The end :)