/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 29 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:05] <Yuhong> Hixie: I was reading your articles about tag soup. Have you heard of mangleme?
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  11. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Dammit, Hixie, why'd you have to write the Lists spec with 2-space indentation? Now I've gotta reformat the whole thing. >_<
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  14. # [00:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: o_O
  15. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> I can't write html with spaces for indentation. I just can't. But I can't have an inconsistent spec, either.
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  17. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Jeez, and you're internally inconsistent, too. >_<
  18. # [00:26] <benschwarz> Hixie: !!
  19. # [00:27] <benschwarz> I hope you're wearing socks
  20. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> So they can be blown off?
  21. # [00:27] <benschwarz> My man!
  22. # [00:27] <benschwarz> haha
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  24. # [00:28] <benschwarz> check the dev spec
  25. # [00:28] <Hixie> benschwarz: hey sup
  26. # [00:28] <Hixie> benschwarz: looking
  27. # [00:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what do you use instead?
  28. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Tabs, like sane people?
  29. # [00:29] * bfrohs is insane for using single-space indentation
  30. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Yes you are. Also: evil.
  31. # [00:30] <bfrohs> Apologies, evil as well hahah
  32. # [00:30] <Hixie> tabs are crazy, because different people have different tab stop definitions, unless you use the default, which is 8 chars and is FAR too wide for sane readability
  33. # [00:30] <jamesr____> tabs are evil
  34. # [00:30] <bfrohs> I'm with Hixie on this one
  35. # [00:30] <Hixie> personally i prefer single-space indentation for markup
  36. # [00:31] <Hixie> sicking: apparently i want meyhemer, not honza; honza is apparently your firebug guy
  37. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Um, what. The entire *point* of using tabs is that they're configurable.
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  39. # [00:31] <bfrohs> I can't do anything other than single-space... because of tab issues in different editors and pressing a key more than once (and readability)
  40. # [00:31] <sicking> Hixie: they're both Honza
  41. # [00:31] <Hixie> oh.
  42. # [00:31] <Hixie> wait
  43. # [00:31] <Hixie> what?
  44. # [00:31] * Hixie gets a headache
  45. # [00:31] <benschwarz> Hixie: the search, the search damnit!
  46. # [00:31] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: some editors change tabs to spaces though :(
  47. # [00:31] <sicking> Hixie: there are multiple Honzas
  48. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: Those editors are broken and stupid, and I don't use them.
  49. # [00:32] <Hixie> benschwarz: what am i looking for exactly?
  50. # [00:32] * Hixie pat pats TabAtkins
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  52. # [00:32] <benschwarz> 1. Open your eyes :)
  53. # [00:32] <benschwarz> Hixie: the search, top right of every page
  54. # [00:32] <Hixie> wow i didn't even see that
  55. # [00:32] <benschwarz> although, I do need to re-browser test
  56. # [00:33] <Hixie> heh, searching for "introduction" isn't helpful :-P
  57. # [00:33] <sicking> Hixie: to make it more fun. They're both called "Jan". Apparently Honza is a common check nickname for Jan
  58. # [00:33] <franksalim> http://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html
  59. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Anyway, changing everything over to tabs, since you're inconsistent between 1 and 2 spaces.
  60. # [00:33] <Hixie> so long as i never have to edit it again, wfm :-)
  61. # [00:33] <franksalim> also, TabAtkins, have a look at the Smart Spaces plugin for gedit, which is not broken nor stupid :-)
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  63. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> franksalim: I can already unindent like if I was using tabs, because I'm using tabs.
  64. # [00:35] <Hixie> benschwarz: can you make the arrow keys not scroll while the search thing is up?
  65. # [00:36] <benschwarz> Hixie: we can do a bunch of things, but its a line in the sand, anyway
  66. # [00:36] <benschwarz> I need to figure out the mobile issues that popped up after it gets minified
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  68. # [00:38] <Hixie> sicking: the Honza I got in contact with told me the other Jan's nick was meyhemer, but there's no meyhemer online
  69. # [00:38] <Hixie> sicking: i think i'll just make this change to the spec and cc him... do you know what his e-mail address is?
  70. # [00:38] <franksalim> TabAtkins: at the cost of having barbaric 0x09s in your files
  71. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> My namesake!
  72. # [00:39] <heycam> SpaceSpaceSpaceSpaceAtkins
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  79. # [00:50] <paul_irish> Hixie: i'm working with ben to fix that scrolly action. it was bugging me too
  80. # [00:51] <Hixie> cool
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  83. # [00:58] <cying> what is the best way to specify the title of an audio song in an html5 audio tag?
  84. # [00:59] <cying> e.g: <audio src="foo.mp3"></audio> <!-- need to have title specified as "This is the Song Title" -->
  85. # [00:59] <jamesr____> heycam: i wanna document my proposed modifications to requestAnimationFrame. should i just wget the sources from your mozilla web page, modify Overview.xml, and run 'make'?
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  87. # [01:00] <Hixie> cying: title=""
  88. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> cying: <h1>This is the song title</h1><audio src=foo.mp3>
  89. # [01:00] <heycam> jamesr____, let me check that all the sources are there
  90. # [01:00] <Hixie> cying: or, if you're using <figure>, <figcaption>.
  91. # [01:00] <jamesr____> if i do that is there any good way to diff things?
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  93. # [01:00] <heycam> jamesr____, yeah they're all there. just run make. (it just relies on xsltproc.)
  94. # [01:00] <cying> Hixie: interesting i didn't see that in the audio spec... is it somewhere else?
  95. # [01:01] <heycam> jamesr____, hmm in the past I have used daisydiff, an html diff tool
  96. # [01:01] <heycam> jamesr____, which works as long as the documents aren't massive
  97. # [01:01] <jamesr____> heycam: cool. honestly i'm mostly gonna delete stuff
  98. # [01:01] <Hixie> cying: see what?
  99. # [01:01] <heycam> jamesr____, progress is being made on where the spec is going to live, but if you want to send comments before it's up officially, please send them to public-fx
  100. # [01:01] <jamesr____> heycam: will do
  101. # [01:02] <heycam> jamesr____, yeah the spec at the moment is a bit more convoluted than it need to be, probably, in terms of managing the timing of animations
  102. # [01:02] <cying> Hixie: the title attribute... but i found it in the table of contents
  103. # [01:02] <jamesr____> yeah i'm not totally happy with what it says about declarative animations
  104. # [01:02] <cying> Hixie: i wasn't sure if <track> was appropriate for this situation
  105. # [01:02] <heycam> yeah I think it promises things which you can't actually do
  106. # [01:02] <jamesr____> verily
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  108. # [01:03] <Hixie> cying: track is for captions and subtitles
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  110. # [01:03] <jamesr____> heycam: so my preference would be to spec out the imperative animation stuff by itself
  111. # [01:03] <heycam> jamesr____, ok it might make sense to start from that (since it's the more important part anyway)
  112. # [01:04] <jamesr____> right
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  115. # [01:06] <cying> Hixie: very interesting. thanks! i'll add that behavior in
  116. # [01:07] <jamesr____> heycam: i'd also like to add a second parameter to requestAnimationFrame of type Element that is the element the animation is associated with
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  118. # [01:07] <jamesr____> heycam: the idea being that if that the UA could tell that element was not visible to the user, it could avoid invoking the callback
  119. # [01:07] <heycam> jamesr____, what would that be used for?
  120. # [01:08] <jamesr____> if you have a canvas with an animation, say, it's kind of silly to invoke the callback if the canvas is scrolled way offscreen
  121. # [01:08] <heycam> avoid or throttle down?
  122. # [01:08] <heycam> (and this would be an optional parameter I guess?)
  123. # [01:08] <jamesr____> avoid
  124. # [01:08] <jamesr____> and yeah
  125. # [01:08] <jamesr____> if you don't specify a parameter then it's implicitly the document or whatever
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  128. # [01:09] <heycam> ok my concern would be that the results of the animation (element position or whatever) might be used by scripts on the page so we might need to still run them
  129. # [01:09] <heycam> but the author could just not associate it with the element in that case
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  131. # [01:09] <jamesr____> right. if they need the thing to run when the element is offscreen then they don't pass the parameter in
  132. # [01:09] <jamesr____> i want to get some more author feedback about how useful this mechanism is
  133. # [01:10] <heycam> that would be good (the feedback)
  134. # [01:10] <heycam> was there a proposal recently on the mailing list about determining whether an element is visible?
  135. # [01:10] <heycam> or was that for a whole page?
  136. # [01:11] <jamesr____> that was about determining if a page was visible
  137. # [01:11] <jamesr____> authors can currently detect whether an element is visible to some degree, but nobody bothers
  138. # [01:11] <jamesr____> so i'd like to make that the default behavior
  139. # [01:11] <jamesr____> imagine a web page with 5 animated banner ads implemented as <canvas>. it'd be really awesome if the default behavior was that we only spent CPU updating animations on the ones that were visible
  140. # [01:12] <heycam> yeah. seems good to me at first glance.
  141. # [01:14] <benschwarz> Hixie: the <header> is inside the <head>, any ideas?
  142. # [01:14] <Hixie> benschwarz: context?
  143. # [01:15] <benschwarz> ha. sorry
  144. # [01:15] <benschwarz> apparently I only told the voices in my head :/
  145. # [01:15] <benschwarz> after the spec splitter runs, I find <header class="head"> inside the <head> element
  146. # [01:15] <benschwarz> not sure exactly when it occurs yet, but it does…
  147. # [01:16] <Hixie> odd
  148. # [01:16] <Hixie> dunno
  149. # [01:16] <Hixie> gsnedders, jgraham, and Philip` might know
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  169. # [02:30] <Rik`> out of curiosity, anyone knows who is maintaining the @html5 account on twitter?
  170. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> Dunno.
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  177. # [02:35] <benschwarz> Rik`: Hixie, I think
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  179. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> No, Hixie doesn't touch that one.
  180. # [02:36] <Rik`> that looks like a very marketing thing for Hixie :)
  181. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> All right, formatting cleanup for Lists is *done*. Time to commit, then work on actual changes.
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  185. # [02:40] <jamesr____> TabAtkins: when defining an algorithm with numbered steps, how do you mark it up? if i just use <ol> and <li> then how do i say something like "go to step 4" without manually updating that whenever i change the list?
  186. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> I use ol, and manually update when I change the list.
  187. # [02:40] <Hixie> Rik`: MikeSmith
  188. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Alternately, use ol, but name the important steps, and then refer to steps by name.
  189. # [02:41] <uf02> TabAtkins: question for you, how long do you think till they implement variables, mixins, nesting inside CSS3 or 4?
  190. # [02:41] <uf02> I mean realistically
  191. # [02:41] <uf02> I know you guys are working on it
  192. # [02:41] <Rik`> Hixie: thanks
  193. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> uf02: We're working on it now, so experimental implementations should hit the tree in some time period measurable in months. If everything goes nicely, other browsers could have experimental implementations by the end of the year. But this is all speculation.
  194. # [02:42] <heycam> jamesr____, the xslt thingo I use for Web IDL uses some processing instructions to reference step numbers
  195. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> Good thing is, all of that stuff is syntax sugar, so you can use a preprocessor immediately and get all the benefits.
  196. # [02:42] <heycam> to reference steps, that is
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  198. # [02:43] <uf02> TabAtkins: the only thing I don't like about preprocessor is that is Ruby based
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  200. # [02:43] <uf02> don't get me wrong SASS is effin great
  201. # [02:43] <uf02> but compiling is annoying
  202. # [02:43] <uf02> versusing just having editor you like and writing and boom
  203. # [02:43] <uf02> done.
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  205. # [02:44] <uf02> I can't wait till you guys implement it because it will be heaven for guy like me
  206. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> uf02: Yeah, but that's what you'll have to do. Even if all browsers added the new features tomorrow, you'd have to wait until all older browsers were insignificant. These features don't really play nicely with backwards compat.
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  208. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> SASS has a mode where it can watch for changes and automatically/transparently compile for you, you know.
  209. # [02:45] <uf02> what if they built something like jQuery for SASS
  210. # [02:45] <uf02> so it's automatic :)
  211. # [02:45] <uf02> and all you have to do is add a JS file
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  213. # [02:46] <uf02> kind of what jquery is to js
  214. # [02:46] <Yuhong> Posted this to Slashdot:
  215. # [02:46] <Yuhong> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1970938&cid=35039752
  216. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> That introduces latency to your page - the user won't see the right stuff until the CSS and JS have both loaded, the JS has parsed and recompiled the sheet, and the new CSS the JS inserted into the page is loaded.
  217. # [02:47] <uf02> yea I figured that, was just looking for an easier way to use preprocessor out the bat
  218. # [02:47] <uf02> well.. will have to wait
  219. # [02:47] <uf02> but at least you guys are working onit
  220. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> Or learn to love Ruby.
  221. # [02:48] <uf02> right.
  222. # [02:50] <uf02> I do wonder, what's your preference.. SASS or LESS ?
  223. # [02:50] <Yuhong> Basically the history of CSS support in IE.
  224. # [02:50] <TabAtkins> I used to like LESS, solely because it was closer to CSS syntax. But LESS made a lot of bad decisions that SASS did right, and now that SASS has their SCSS syntax which is close to real CSS syntax, I think it's much better.
  225. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> That said, i've never used a preprocessor.
  226. # [02:51] <uf02> heh that's interesting. why not?
  227. # [02:51] <uf02> never used it but likes SASS more
  228. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> Never felt the need to. I do all my development in a text editor.
  229. # [02:52] <uf02> gotcha
  230. # [02:52] <erlehmann> Yuhong, i am actually preparing a panel for a german conference on the topic of if this is the right way to make a standard
  231. # [02:53] <Yuhong> It took a lot of thinking and research to for me to figure it all out.
  232. # [02:53] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@219.157.197.113.dy.bbexcite.jp)
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  234. # [02:55] <erlehmann> fun fact: i know no one who is a) clever enough for a panel b) too dumb to realize that defending apples move against ogg, webm etc. makes them an acceptable target for trolling
  235. # [02:56] <TabAtkins> You already tried Gruber?
  236. # [02:59] <Rik`> to my knowledge, we haven't seen Apple moving against ogg or webm
  237. # [02:59] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, it is in germany. i tried the german pendant, tim pritlove.
  238. # [03:00] <Rik`> Apple is well known for not commenting stuff before shipping them
  239. # [03:00] <Rik`> (which also means they are not commenting on stuff they will not implement)
  240. # [03:01] <gsnedders> Rik`: I think the assumption is they would've been on stage at Google I/O last year if they were going to.
  241. # [03:01] <gsnedders> Rik`: Instead of letting themselves/Moz/Op take the spotlight
  242. # [03:01] <erlehmann> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tim_pritlove
  243. # [03:01] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  244. # [03:01] <Rik`> gsnedders: Have you ever seen Apple going to announce something with other companies?
  245. # [03:02] <Rik`> (ok, Verizon recently but there is a lot of money on the table)
  246. # [03:03] * Joins: Evet_ (~Evet@46.4.32.195)
  247. # [03:03] <gsnedders> Rik`: It seems unlikely they'd leave such a delay
  248. # [03:04] <Rik`> no hardware decoding available means they won't ship it
  249. # [03:04] <erlehmann> Rik`, how is jobs take on ‘“there is a patent pool being assembled” and “every video codec is patented” no move against open codecs?
  250. # [03:04] * Quits: Evet (~Evet@46.4.32.195) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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  252. # [03:05] <gsnedders> Rik`: Are we sure? Does the iPhone use a DSP?
  253. # [03:05] <gsnedders> *a locked DSP
  254. # [03:05] <jamesr____> heycam: in your spec you say that the UA must add a requestAnimationFrame callback to the list if the callback is not already in the list. why exclude duplicates?
  255. # [03:05] <erlehmann> Rik`, “hardware” decoding usually happens in DSPs, special processors suited for the task.
  256. # [03:05] <jamesr____> heycam: if i do setTimeout(foo, 10); setTimeout(foo, 10); then i expect 'foo' to be invoked twice
  257. # [03:05] <Rik`> erlehmann: you're talking about a report of mail attributed to jobs
  258. # [03:06] <Rik`> there are a lot of fake reported mails
  259. # [03:06] <gsnedders> erlehmann: The DSPs used in lots of phones have embedded ROM in them which they execute, so once shipped you can't change what the DSP does.
  260. # [03:06] <Rik`> gsnedders: that's beyond my knowledge and competence
  261. # [03:07] <Rik`> gsnedders: but the spotlight you're talking about is very very very small
  262. # [03:07] <heycam> jamesr____, not sure, looking
  263. # [03:07] <erlehmann> gsnedders, oh. i thought you could upgrade the firmware ._.
  264. # [03:07] <gsnedders> Rik`: I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely possible for them to implement hardware decoding for existing devices.
  265. # [03:07] <Rik`> maybe it is possible
  266. # [03:07] <erlehmann> even if it was, this isn't the deciding factor
  267. # [03:08] <erlehmann> and every single one of you knows it
  268. # [03:08] <gsnedders> erlehmann: On a lot of phones it's separate to the ROM the actual phone's firmware is stored in, and isn't reprogrammable
  269. # [03:08] <Rik`> but assuming that Apple is not gonna ship WebM in the future when they said nothing about it feels weird to me
  270. # [03:08] <erlehmann> gsnedders, :/
  271. # [03:08] <Rik`> erlehmann: what is the deciding factor ?
  272. # [03:08] <heycam> jamesr____, yeah I'm not sure why that's there, can't think of a good reason.
  273. # [03:09] <jamesr____> heycam: also, why are these "methods"? is that the IDL term?
  274. # [03:09] <erlehmann> Rik`, your sceptic argument goes like: you cannot know not-X. therefore, X is possible. i will not fall for that.
  275. # [03:09] <erlehmann> also, politics.
  276. # [03:10] <heycam> jamesr____, hmm no the IDL term is "operation"
  277. # [03:10] <jamesr____> whatwg seems to define things as 'method's
  278. # [03:10] <jamesr____> i'm looking at the setTimeout() definition
  279. # [03:10] <heycam> ok
  280. # [03:10] <heycam> method is a nicer name than operation
  281. # [03:10] <Rik`> erlehmann: Microsoft said they were giving more money to MPEG LA than receiving
  282. # [03:10] <erlehmann> Rik`, does the fact that apple did not announce support for 12 feet robots with furry paws raise the possibility that they will ship said bots?
  283. # [03:11] <jamesr____> definitely
  284. # [03:11] <Rik`> I think Apple or someone else reported that it was the same for Apple
  285. # [03:11] <heycam> maybe I should change do s/operation/method/g in Web IDL
  286. # [03:11] <othermaciej> MPEG LA is definitely not a revenue source for us, it is a cost center
  287. # [03:11] <Rik`> othermaciej: do you have a neutral link for that ?
  288. # [03:12] <Rik`> so everytime I read "Apple has invested so much in H264", I'm thinking that every year it costs Apple a lot of money so they wouldn't be reluctant to use a patent free format
  289. # [03:12] <othermaciej> I don't think Apple publishes financials to that degree
  290. # [03:13] <Rik`> I'm also thinking that Apple is very fast to introduce new technologies/formats and ditch previous ones
  291. # [03:13] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-fhuhrwcwliusztlv) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  292. # [03:13] <erlehmann> I want a T-Shirt with “My name is MPEG LA and i hate every single one of you.”
  293. # [03:13] <Rik`> and I'm also thinking that checking if WebM is not a legal threat is not a quick task
  294. # [03:14] * Evet_ is now known as Evet
  295. # [03:15] <erlehmann> Rik`, good that there is a company whose main business revolves around searching for stuff *hint, hint*
  296. # [03:15] <erlehmann> btw: i heard, they also have a patent search ;)
  297. # [03:16] <TabAtkins> I don't think our servers are well-designed to do legal searches.
  298. # [03:16] <gsnedders> Rik`: You'll never know if something is a legal threat or not until you ship, pretty mufch
  299. # [03:16] <erlehmann> shippers gonna ship!
  300. # [03:16] <othermaciej> checking if a complicated technology is a legal threat is not in any way fast or easy
  301. # [03:17] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  302. # [03:18] <Rik`> anyway, there is only two possible scenarios now
  303. # [03:18] <Rik`> either everyone moves to WebM
  304. # [03:18] <erlehmann> or only some do.
  305. # [03:18] <erlehmann> hehehe
  306. # [03:18] * Joins: uf0 (deeznuts@80.244.247.158)
  307. # [03:18] <Rik`> or MEPG LA is threatened enough by WebM that they make parts of H264 patent free
  308. # [03:18] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  311. # [03:19] <erlehmann> the word you are looking for is “royalty free”
  312. # [03:19] <benschwarz> Hixie: paul_irish made the search not scroll…
  313. # [03:19] <gsnedders> Rik`: Or MPEG LA think that IE/Safari supporting it is enough.
  314. # [03:19] <Rik`> erlehmann: you're right, sorry
  315. # [03:19] <erlehmann> n/p
  316. # [03:20] <Rik`> gsnedders: Firefox + Chrome + Opera is at least 40% of internet users in every country so that's not a plausible scenario
  317. # [03:21] <erlehmann> south korea disagrees
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  320. # [03:22] <jamesr____> heycam: ok, i've got something. now to find some decent web hosting to throw it up on...
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  322. # [03:24] <erlehmann> Rik`, http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2010/02/24/no-choice-insouth-korea/
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  324. # [03:25] <Rik`> gsnedders: MPEG LA already changed the end of the free licensing fees because of the pressure Theora/WebM put on them
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  326. # [03:26] <Rik`> erlehmann: yeah I know, but this is the exception, not the rule
  327. # [03:26] <heycam> jamesr____, cool.
  328. # [03:26] * heycam out for a while
  329. # [03:26] <erlehmann> gsnedders, count your chickens when they are hatched.
  330. # [03:26] <erlehmann> no, i meant Rik`
  331. # [03:27] <erlehmann> sorry
  332. # [03:27] * gsnedders vanishes off to bed
  333. # [03:27] <erlehmann> Rik`, status quo is: apple has the only modern browser not supporting something. conjecturing does not help.
  334. # [03:27] <Rik`> the only modern browser not supporting something ?
  335. # [03:28] <erlehmann> Rik`, royalty-free codecs in <audio> and <video>?
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  337. # [03:28] <Rik`> like with IE9, you can install codecs for the media framework of the os
  338. # [03:29] <Rik`> you can insall a xiph plugin for quicktime that will play vorbis and theora stuff
  339. # [03:29] <Rik`> and I believe Perian has a WebM quicktime plugin in the making
  340. # [03:30] <erlehmann> Rik`, we had “whatever codec is installed” for years, with <object>
  341. # [03:30] <Rik`> I know, that's useless
  342. # [03:30] <erlehmann> or was it <embed>?
  343. # [03:31] <Rik`> but saying that Apple will never ship WebM only six months after it was introduced is not serious
  344. # [03:32] <Rik`> I mean Firefox is not yet supporting it
  345. # [03:33] <erlehmann> Rik`, count the evidence for that they will ship it in another six months. does it seem likely?
  346. # [03:33] <Rik`> Android is only supporting it for one or two months
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  348. # [03:33] <jamesr___> heycam: http://webstuff.nfshost.com/Overview.html
  349. # [03:33] <Rik`> in another six months ? maybe in desktop safari, no way in mobile safari
  350. # [03:33] <jamesr___> basically it's what you have except for the following:
  351. # [03:34] <jamesr___> 1.) removed the requirements for updating native animations since i don't think they are implementable. user agents will not be updating native animations on the main thread, so you can't define their updates in terms of steps on the main message loop
  352. # [03:34] <Rik`> but I'd say they won't implement it on desktop safari if they can't implement it on mobile
  353. # [03:34] <jamesr___> 2.) added an element parameter to requestAnimationFrame() for visibility checks
  354. # [03:35] <jamesr___> 3.) added a setTimeout()-style handle as a return value for request..() and added a clear() to mimic setTimeout()
  355. # [03:35] <jamesr___> 4.) updated the 'invoke the callbacks' algorithm to take the visibility checks and cancellation into account
  356. # [03:36] <erlehmann> Rik`, your argument is moot. i will go to sleep. in before mootles :3
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  360. # [03:52] <Hixie> http://wetzler.me/dropbox-syncplicity/ applies to HTML too. Whence the 80% rule.
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  415. # [07:37] <heycam> jamesr___, /Overview.html seems to be the makefile, but /Overview.xml worked
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  421. # [08:23] <benschwarz> Hixie: Are you able to poke the whatwg server? port 22/ssh isn't responding
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  454. # [11:33] <matjas> TabAtkins: +2 internets to you, kind Sir.
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  466. # [12:44] <annevk> oh look
  467. # [12:44] <annevk> http://twitterfeed.com/ is what TabAtkins is using for CSS
  468. # [12:44] <annevk> I guess we should just use that for the WHATWG blog
  469. # [12:44] <annevk> the other features are not really relevant
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  481. # [13:19] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: <ul><li><a><li></ul> only says "Error: Unclosed elements inside a list."
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  486. # [14:15] <matjas_> TabAtkins: any chance of including the link to the relevant thread on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-commits/ for each item in the feed?
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  501. # [15:12] <phrearch> hi
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  540. # [18:38] <webr3> okay, I must be being thick - where's the startConversation method of web workers defined?
  541. # [18:38] <gsnedders> webr3: startConversation? There is no such thing…
  542. # [18:39] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  543. # [18:39] <webr3> that's what i thought, but the demo uses it :s and it's not defined in the worker lib either
  544. # [18:39] <webr3> see source: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/crypto/page.html
  545. # [18:40] <webr3> it's not defined on page or in lib ( http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/crypto/libcrypto-v1.js )
  546. # [18:40] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  547. # [18:40] <webr3> has been in the spec for ages too, but not defined, just in the code of the example,a nd the example works - totally confused me
  548. # [18:42] <webr3> see also: http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg12099.html from 2008 "more powerful api"
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  550. # [18:45] <webr3> ahh.. the demo's screwed too - var crytoLib (missing p) - and .startConversation is undefined (as it should be i guess) spec/demo code may need an update...
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  596. # [22:55] <webr3> how would one approach jailing the js environment in the browser (other than web workers)? (basically ecmascript only)
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  600. # [23:12] <Philip`> webr3: Sounds like http://code.google.com/p/google-caja/
  601. # [23:14] <webr3> cheers - and wow, I've not seen "DHTML" referenced in a v long time!
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  609. # Session Close: Sun Jan 30 00:00:00 2011

The end :)