/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 06 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:11] <annevk> nn
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  11. # [00:20] <Hixie> what's the implementation status of image borders?
  12. # [00:21] <Hixie> caniuse says browsers do it with prefixes
  13. # [00:25] <othermaciej> border-image you mean?
  14. # [00:26] <othermaciej> -webkit-border-image is pretty clearly prefixed
  15. # [00:26] <othermaciej> if that is what you had in mind
  16. # [00:26] <webr3> q, anybody know if it would be possible to get the browsers to generate key pairs and wrap them up in certificates, perhaps coupled to keygen?
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  21. # [00:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah that's what i meant by prefixed
  22. # [00:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: was wondering what the status of the spec was
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  27. # [01:03] <abarth> webr3: its possible, but there isn't much momentum to do it now
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  30. # [01:07] <webr3> abarth, that's good enough for me, cheers :)
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  49. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://caniuse.com/#background-img-opts
  50. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> fwiw
  51. # [02:18] <MikeSmith> as far as browser support
  52. # [02:19] <Hixie> border-image, not background-image, but yeah, i looked at caniuse :-)
  53. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> seems fantasai is still working on the spec pretty actively
  54. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> ah
  55. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> nm then *)
  56. # [02:19] <Hixie> she's been working on that spec for like a half-decade
  57. # [02:24] <gsnedders> Does anywhere spec that getting an element which has had a custom property set on it before must get the same element with the custom property still set, regardless of GC?
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  59. # [02:28] <hober> I could have sworn that was in web dom core, but I can't find it
  60. # [02:29] <gsnedders> If it's in web dom core, I guess I should be embarrassed seeming I briefly edited it :P
  61. # [02:30] <hober> :)
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  94. # [05:36] <Hixie> when making a tileset, e.g. for techniques like css sprites, is there any advantage to using a grid over using a single row for all the images?
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  107. # [09:09] <Hixie> man, webkit-border-image is quite buggy
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  114. # [10:20] <hsivonen> must be a busy year both for legitimate HTML5 trainers and snakeoil salesmen
  115. # [10:21] <hsivonen> now that publishers are waking up to iOS apps being a bad deal and staff need to be trained for "HTML5"
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  122. # [11:50] <Philip`> Hixie: If the images are not all equal sizes, you can pack them more tightly into a squarish grid
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  124. # [11:52] <Philip`> Implementations will have some maximum height/width limits, so if you've got a very large number of images in a row you might hit that
  125. # [11:53] <Philip`> (PNG can only represent 64K pixels in each direction; I don't know if implementations have tighter limits)
  126. # [11:54] <Philip`> (Incidentally, I'd expect a column would probably be minutely more efficient than a row, if you don't want a grid)
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  153. # [14:07] <annevk> alright, I guess I'll write some more Change Proposals
  154. # [14:08] <annevk> one for ISSUE-150 as micromanaging editors is annoying (if the W3C had a proper style guide for these questions it would be a different matter)
  155. # [14:09] <annevk> and one for ISSUE-140 as we should not introduce versioning in conformance
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  164. # [14:37] <annevk> damnit
  165. # [14:37] <annevk> now I wrote CPP twice
  166. # [14:37] <annevk> if you all read CCP there you'll be fine
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  241. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Why do people use things like Mersenne twister when they can just use, e.g., AES in counter mode?
  242. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Are they much faster?
  243. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> If AES is a secure block cipher, its output is computationally indistinguishable from a random bitstring.
  244. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> Maybe things like Mersenne twister are comparably secure, though, in which case I guess it makes no difference.
  245. # [20:19] <Philip`> The cipher will never repeat, which doesn't sound like good randomness
  246. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Oh, right.
  247. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> It's indistinguishable from an arbitrary pseudo-random permutation.
  248. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> But repetitions have negligible probability anyway with a 128-bit block size, right?
  249. # [20:20] <erlehmann> I don't get it. Wouldn't a cipher need an initialization vector and a key? and on top of that a counter input?
  250. # [20:21] <erlehmann> While a random number generator only needs a seed?
  251. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> You'd use your seed as a key, and start the counter from 0. You have to have a random seed anyway.
  252. # [20:22] <Philip`> Depends on what you consider negligible, and why you'd put up with theoretical non-randomness instead of using something specifically designed to be random
  253. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> You can't be secure against negligible probabilities anyway. Basically all cryptographic theorems say "except with negligible probability" in them.
  254. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> I mean, you can be secure in some cases.
  255. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Like a one-time pad.
  256. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> But it's an unreasonable requirement given how much more you can do if you allow negligible probabilities of stuff breaking.
  257. # [20:23] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  258. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> I dunno, my crypto course covered block ciphers and not PRNGs independently, so maybe I'm biased. :)
  259. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> Theoretically, it's considerably superior to minimize the number of assumptions, so if you can prove something secure given that AES is secure, and you already rely on AES's security . . .
  260. # [20:24] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, a one-time pad only moves the problem. How to you securely communicate the one time key? I suspect that is an infinite regress.
  261. # [20:25] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  262. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> Well, that's a separate problem. You have to solve one problem at a time. The one-time pad solves one specific problem perfectly.
  263. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> It has other problems too, like it's malleable.
  264. # [20:26] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  265. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> E.g., I can flip a bit in the ciphertext and it will be flipped in the message.
  266. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> So if I happen to have external knowledge of what a particular bit means, I can modify the message -- although it stills gives me no information.
  267. # [20:27] <Philip`> If you only want the PRNG output for use in crypto stuff, then I guess you might worry less about its randomness properties than if you're using it for statistical computation stuff, so AES would probably be okay
  268. # [20:28] <Philip`> If you care about it being a good uniform distribution in up to 623 dimensions then you'd use a Mersenne twister instead, I suppose
  269. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Even for statistical computation, surely you can't run enough rounds of AES for non-repetition to be statistically detectable?
  270. # [20:29] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  271. # [20:29] <erlehmann> >rounds
  272. # [20:29] <erlehmann> that sounds computationally expensive
  273. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> I don't know why people want such extragavant period sizes for RNDs.
  274. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> I meant "you can't run AES enough times". AES has a fixed number of rounds depending on key size.
  275. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's just that AES is slower than Mersenne twister.
  276. # [20:30] <erlehmann> Jack up the AES rounds up to eleven!
  277. # [20:32] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.64) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  278. # [20:33] <Philip`> There is e.g. http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/99493 which says "A preliminary study suggested that [Rijndael] required too many rounds for randomness, because the size of the elementary round functions is too small."
  279. # [20:34] <Philip`> I don't understand what it's talking about at all, but it seems the general impression is that being a decent cipher doesn't necessarily imply being a decent PRNG
  280. # [20:35] <Philip`> (or at least not provably decent)
  281. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, what's "Assert: refNode is not null" supposed to mean?
  282. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> That refNode shouldn't be null at that point in the algorithm
  283. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> The "Node!" in the IDL means that a TypeError should be thrown when you pass null in
  284. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> (Not yet in any spec, though)
  285. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Oh, exclamation point.
  286. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> I didn't notice that.
  287. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Current WebIDL says you can always pass null for objects, right?
  288. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  289. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> That might change
  290. # [20:41] <gsnedders> But null is an object! typeof says so!
  291. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> It's not a Node, though.
  292. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> So why should it be passable as a Node argument?
  293. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> That's why we have "Node?", right?
  294. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> We don't
  295. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> "Node?" isn't allowed in current WebIDL
  296. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> Well, only because "Node" already means what you'd expect "Node?" to mean.
  297. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> (The idea is that "Node" becomes "Node?" and "Node!" or "[NoNull] Node" becomes "Node")
  298. # [20:45] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: That wasn't a serious argument.
  299. # [20:48] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  300. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  301. # [20:58] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
  302. # [20:59] <Hixie> anyone know of an equivalent to ImageMagick for audio?
  303. # [21:00] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  304. # [21:01] <benschwarz> Hixie: I want to discuss some features for appCache with you… are you around in about an hour and a half?
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  307. # [21:13] <Hixie> benschwarz: can't predict when i'll be around
  308. # [21:13] <Hixie> benschwarz: sorry
  309. # [21:13] <benschwarz> Hixie: sure, I'll pull something together if you're not around
  310. # [21:16] <Hixie> benschwarz: my irc client is always online, so feel free to ask questions and i'll reply when i can (assuming you leave your irc client on too!)
  311. # [21:17] <Hixie> i have to merge some sound files together in an automated fashion on my linux server
  312. # [21:17] <Hixie> so far the only way i've found to do it is to manually mix the wave files
  313. # [21:17] <benschwarz> Hixie: wav files? can't they just be cat / appended to each other?
  314. # [21:17] <Hixie> i need to mix them
  315. # [21:18] <Hixie> not concatenate them
  316. # [21:18] <Hixie> with differences in volume and in stereo position
  317. # [21:19] <benschwarz> Hixie: you're not on a mac, are you?
  318. # [21:19] <Hixie> the server is debian
  319. # [21:19] * Hixie is on a mac right now, but this is for a web service, not a one-off
  320. # [21:19] <benschwarz> ok. I can't help :)
  321. # [21:21] <Hixie> and my input files are all different bitrates, #s of channels, etc
  322. # [21:21] <Hixie> this is going to suck
  323. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Blech, writing tests requires you to actually decide what you want to test. How tiresome.
  324. # [21:21] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i often write what i call "demos" which have no pass conditions
  325. # [21:21] <Hixie> AryehGregor: and then, if i remember, convert them to real tests afterwards
  326. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> My problem is, if I have an algorithm defining something like range.setStart(), how do I decide what Ranges to test on?
  327. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> Since I could construct arbitrarily many.
  328. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> I guess I could just reuse the ones I made up for my extend() tests.
  329. # [21:23] <Hixie> could construct arbitrarily many :-)
  330. # [21:23] <Hixie> oops, copy-paste error
  331. # [21:23] <Hixie> i meant: construct arbitrarily many :-)
  332. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> No, because that takes forever to run.
  333. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Like "longer than I'm willing to wait".
  334. # [21:24] <Hixie> construct arbitrarily many / 10 ?
  335. # [21:24] <Hixie> they can't be random, they have to be reproducible
  336. # [21:25] <Hixie> so just take a complicated DOM and then make a good cross-section of the possible ranges given that DOM
  337. # [21:25] <Hixie> (then repeat with a different DOM a few times so that you don't miss bugs that are hidden by that specific DOM)
  338. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> If I naively constructed test-cases for setStart() based on the nodes and offsets I have now, it would be something like (23*9)^3, which is too many.
  339. # [21:25] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I'm basically doing that (although the DOM isn't so complicated). I'm just annoyed that it requires thought, I guess. :)
  340. # [21:25] <Hixie> writing test cases requires a lot of thought
  341. # [21:26] <Hixie> (writing test cases without thought rarely finds bugs)
  342. # [21:26] <Hixie> (writing test cases _with_ thought should result in at lesat one bug per test :-) )
  343. # [21:26] <Hixie> though in your case you're not really looking for bugs per se
  344. # [21:27] <Hixie> more just edge cases to reverse engineer
  345. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Writing test cases without thought finds lots of bugs. :)
  346. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> I'm writing general DOM Range tests right now.
  347. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> So it's not reverse-engineering at the moment. Reverse-engineering is different.
  348. # [21:27] <Hixie> ah ok
  349. # [21:27] <Hixie> do dom range implementations really suck that badly?
  350. # [21:28] <Hixie> that's sad
  351. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Yes, they're totally incompatible.
  352. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> Especially Opera's.
  353. # [21:29] <Hixie> good times
  354. # [21:29] <Hixie> not really that surprising given how the dom range spec used to suck
  355. # [21:29] <Ms2ger> And I haven't specced what happens on DOM mutations yet
  356. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Heh, didn't even notice that.
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  372. # [21:59] <annevk> I hope mutations can be made to go asynchronous...
  373. # [22:01] * realityking___ is now known as realityking
  374. # [22:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, I'm still thinking about putting events in DOM Core by the way. Just been a bit too busy.
  375. # [22:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, now you joined WebApps I guess your name can be put as editor of DOM Core again. :-)
  376. # [22:05] <annevk> Ms2ger, and you can update the W3C copy too! Teehee
  377. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> Yay :)
  378. # [22:06] <annevk> hmm, my "CPP" got quite some response. Does that mean I have to do something?
  379. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> You don't have to, but if you think it won't convince the chairs, it might make sense to change it.
  380. # [22:07] <Hixie> annevk: for the CCPs, are you still editing them?
  381. # [22:08] <annevk> I can change them, of course
  382. # [22:08] <annevk> but I just wrote them as one-off emails to start with
  383. # [22:08] <annevk> feel free to turn them into wiki pages though
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  388. # [22:17] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  389. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> . . . what does it mean in WebKit Developer Tools when a CPU profile says 70% of time spent in "(program)"?
  390. # [22:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: program code, stuff in the global code
  391. # [22:21] <gsnedders> *scope
  392. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  393. # [22:21] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  394. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> That seems unlikely, somehow.
  395. # [22:22] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  396. # [22:27] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  397. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Someone remind me, what's the point of the convention of wrapping your whole JS body in function () {...}();? Just to not litter the global namespace with anything?
  398. # [22:30] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Yeah
  399. # [22:30] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  400. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> kthx.
  401. # [22:31] <bga_> AryehGregor `;(function(global){ })(this)`
  402. # [22:32] <zcorpan> function(window,undefined){}(window); is a pattern i saw somewhere
  403. # [22:32] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  404. # [22:33] <GarethAdams|Home> zcorpan: jquery does that
  405. # [22:33] <zcorpan> right
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  408. # [22:35] <zcorpan> seems a bit pointless to me
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  413. # [22:41] * zcorpan does not like it when he gets emails with both a text/plain body and an HTML body but the text/plain body is entirely useless
  414. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> zcorpan++
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  420. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Looks like IE9 freaks out on long-running scripts.
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  423. # [22:59] <Hixie> i'm having great trouble understanding the CP for 140
  424. # [22:59] <Hixie> what problem does it solve?
  425. # [22:59] <Hixie> it seems so completely misguided that i don't understand how to argue against it
  426. # [23:00] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure solving a problem is a requirement or CPs
  427. # [23:06] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-210-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: abarth)
  428. # [23:07] * Quits: yusukes (~yusukes@2401:fa00:4:1000:224:81ff:fec1:6444) (Remote host closed the connection)
  429. # [23:08] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  430. # [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  431. # [23:24] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.101.93) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  432. # [23:28] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.45.219) (Remote host closed the connection)
  433. # [23:28] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  434. # [23:30] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
  435. # [23:42] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  436. # [23:45] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.37.224) (Quit: nn)
  437. # [23:46] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  438. # [23:47] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  439. # [23:49] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  440. # Session Close: Mon Feb 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)