/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-07 / end

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  45. # [03:17] <sebasmagri> Hi guys, I've been looking for a non-java alternative to w3c css and markup validators which supports css3 and html5... Do someone knows any?
  46. # [03:19] <sebasmagri> I want to have it running in my development machine... I'm looking at the validate.cgi in html5lib sources, could it be what I'm looking for?
  47. # [03:20] <sebasmagri> the cgi's docstring answers part of my question...
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  125. # [10:13] <hsivonen> cool. Opera Mobile support @font-face even on S60
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  128. # [10:16] <annevk> was there some blog post last week that should be mentioned on WHATWG Weekly?
  129. # [10:16] <annevk> I have a section "The Wider Web" for that this time around
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  133. # [10:20] <Hixie> annevk: added some unfinished stuff to 140, also asked smylers if he could contribute his recent e-mail to 140
  134. # [10:21] <Smylers> Hixie: Sure. Will do that now.
  135. # [10:21] <Hixie> oh, speak of the devil :-)
  136. # [10:21] <Hixie> didn't realise you were here, or would have asked you here instead :-)
  137. # [10:21] <Hixie> thanks dude
  138. # [10:22] <Smylers> I wasn't — first time I've logged in in months and the first message I saw mentioned me!
  139. # [10:22] <Hixie> hah
  140. # [10:22] <annevk> I can send out rev 1 of the proposals later today
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  142. # [10:22] <annevk> unless someone wants to wait a little longer
  143. # [10:22] <Hixie> there's no deadline yet is there?
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  145. # [10:23] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm not sure I understood your validation versioning proposal
  146. # [10:24] <hsivonen> annevk: surely it is appropriate to pose the question "is this document valid HTML + SVG + MathML" specifying snapshots for each
  147. # [10:25] <annevk> you mean like asking is this "valid CSS 2.1"?
  148. # [10:25] <hsivonen> whether anyone provides validator software for the exact snapshot dates you want is another question
  149. # [10:25] <annevk> authors have been annoyed with that forever
  150. # [10:25] <annevk> they want to use teh Selectors
  151. # [10:25] <Hixie> what's the use of checking for validity for HTML and NOT SVG and MathML?
  152. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: maybe you want to make sure your fractions are dumb text fractions that interop with UAs that don't support MathML
  153. # [10:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: i.e. want to make sure there's no accidental MathML there
  154. # [10:27] <Hixie> well then what you need is not "is this valid HTML without MathML" , but "does this contain any features unsupported by browsers X, Y, and Z"
  155. # [10:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: sure
  156. # [10:27] <Hixie> which isn't conformance (e.g. it shouldn't call out <marquee> really), and has nothing to do with specific versions of specs nor what is suggested in the 140 CP
  157. # [10:33] <annevk> Hixie, your issues/data.html is wrong it says "Estimated date for last e-mail based on the data above: 2009-08-17"
  158. # [10:33] <Hixie> that's because the line is increasing currently :-(
  159. # [10:33] <Hixie> it's not wrong :-(
  160. # [10:33] <annevk> when looking at all the data it is "Estimated date for last e-mail based on the data above: 2013-01-07"
  161. # [10:34] <Hixie> it's based on what you draw
  162. # [10:34] <annevk> mkay
  163. # [10:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/ has two doctypes
  164. # [10:36] <Hixie> good times
  165. # [10:36] <Smylers> annevk: Re blog posts, Mike Cardwell's garnered a lot of attention last week (though was actually published a little earlier): https://grepular.com/Abusing_HTTP_Status_Codes_to_Expose_Private_Information
  166. # [10:36] <Hixie> i wonder why
  167. # [10:36] <hsivonen> anyway, I tend to agree with Noah that it's definitionally odd to define conformance without being clear about what's included in the definition by reference
  168. # [10:37] <hsivonen> I haven't yet examined what further conclusions or changes Noah has proposed
  169. # [10:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: all that matters is whether the document conforms to the specs you care about
  170. # [10:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: why would we need any other definition?
  171. # [10:39] <Hixie> zcorpan: looks like it's Philip`'s fault. Or at least, I don't see anything on my end that could do that.
  172. # [10:39] <zcorpan> Philip`: ^
  173. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: and if you want to establish a common understanding with someone else so that the two of you know you are talking about the same thing (so that you can collaborate)?
  174. # [10:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: write a spec
  175. # [10:40] <Hixie> it can be as simple as the "Specs" wiki page
  176. # [10:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: I doubt many of these "common understanding" scenarios map neatly onto spec divisions anyway
  177. # [10:41] <Hixie> i doubt any do actually
  178. # [10:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's very possible
  179. # [10:41] <Hixie> except maybe the theoretical future "what we should implement" one
  180. # [10:42] <hsivonen> I wonder if I should point out that validators are software just like browsers and validators are incomplete, buggy and changing, too
  181. # [10:42] <Hixie> yes
  182. # [10:42] <jgraham> hsivonen: Only if you can deal with the responsibility of shattering a thousand illusions
  183. # [10:42] <Hixie> maybe point out that the HTML4 conformance checkers never complied to the spec :-)
  184. # [10:42] <jgraham> ;)
  185. # [10:44] <Hixie> jgraham: added that point to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Objections_against_CPs_for_ISSUE-140
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  187. # [10:45] <Hixie> ok i should sleep
  188. # [10:45] <Hixie> nn
  189. # [10:45] <jgraham> gn
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  192. # [10:51] <annevk> I have nothing about Change Proposals last week
  193. # [10:52] <annevk> did not seem interesting enough and I already have quite a long post
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  195. # [10:55] <zcorpan> hmm. not sure what to think of IndexedDB using window.onerror
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  197. # [10:58] <annevk> hmm
  198. # [10:58] <annevk> that shorturl was meant to read weekly-extensibility
  199. # [10:58] <annevk> WordPress keeps munging it or something
  200. # [10:58] <annevk> anyway
  201. # [10:58] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/whatwg-extensibility
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  204. # [11:00] <zcorpan> annevk: workers already had navigator.onLine
  205. # [11:00] <annevk> yeah, but not the events
  206. # [11:01] <zcorpan> right
  207. # [11:01] <annevk> I guess I could change it
  208. # [11:01] <annevk> I noticed that after I wrote the sentence and decided to not care
  209. # [11:01] <annevk> but I guess people might
  210. # [11:02] * zcorpan cared just enough to point it out :)
  211. # [11:03] <annevk> fixed
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  214. # [11:11] <jgraham> annevk: Your tense is inconsistent (at least) in the "on the List" section
  215. # [11:11] <jgraham> eg. "put forward a proposal" vs "finds an inconsistency"
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  217. # [11:11] <annevk> hmm yeah
  218. # [11:11] <jgraham> Should all be past tense, I think
  219. # [11:12] <annevk> my English has not progressed beyond high school it seems, as I made the same mistakes back then!
  220. # [11:12] <jgraham> I expect my English has got worse since then
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  222. # [11:14] <annevk> fixed I think
  223. # [11:14] <annevk> I did leave "figuring out" as I suspect that is still ongoing
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  225. # [11:19] <zcorpan> hey, English is ever-changing! Maybe next week it'll be valid to mix tenses
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  237. # [12:03] <Philip`> Hixie: Where is the multipage splitter for that version being run? (and what version of lxml does that machine have?)
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  242. # [12:10] <matjas> annevk, thanks for writing about @csscommits :)
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  251. # [12:47] <annevk> Philip`, I am running it
  252. # [12:48] <annevk> Philip`, could it be 2.7.8?
  253. # [12:48] <annevk> oh, 2.2.8
  254. # [12:50] <hsivonen> has anyone had time to check if Chrome shipped the script execution code that broke LABjs into the stable channel?
  255. # [12:51] * hsivonen wonders how Debian expects to be able to maintain Chromium 6.0.x over the Squeeze life time
  256. # [12:52] <Philip`> annevk: Oh, hmm, it looks like I made a change to the script when I updated lxml (probably to 2.2.8)
  257. # [12:52] <Philip`> to exclude the duplicate doctype
  258. # [12:53] <Philip`> but forgot to commit it
  259. # [12:53] <annevk> okay
  260. # [12:53] <annevk> I think my version of your script has local modifications too...
  261. # [12:55] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/detail?r=182
  262. # [12:57] <annevk> so lxml emits the HTML DOCTYPE?
  263. # [12:57] <annevk> interesting
  264. # [12:57] <Philip`> It puts the doctype in the DOM so the html5lib serialiser emits it, or something, I think
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  266. # [12:58] <Philip`> but only with recent enough versions of lxml
  267. # [12:58] <Philip`> (Maybe they changed it to start recognising <!doctype html>)
  268. # [12:58] <annevk> I guess I should have covered http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Feb/0113.html -- added for next week
  269. # [12:59] <Philip`> (This patch is kind of a hack but it seems to work)
  270. # [13:03] <hsivonen> heycam: the reason why I didn't find the single-page version of SVG 1.1 2nd ed. is that it isn't linked from http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/
  271. # [13:03] <hsivonen> I fail for reading /TR/
  272. # [13:04] <hsivonen> must. never. read. /TR/
  273. # [13:05] <annevk> Philip`, only if you use the html5lib serializer
  274. # [13:06] <annevk> Philip`, but I found out how I could fix this
  275. # [13:06] * jgraham is considering writing a userjs that redirects you away from /tr/ if you accidentially end up there
  276. # [13:06] <jgraham> Or maybe just replaces the page with a big red FAIL message
  277. # [13:06] <annevk> duplicate DOCTYPE removed
  278. # [13:06] <annevk> yay
  279. # [13:07] <annevk> Smylers, hey, thanks
  280. # [13:07] <annevk> Smylers, I believe you are not supposed to refer directly to the other change proposal though
  281. # [13:07] <annevk> Smylers, they are meant to be standalone
  282. # [13:08] <Smylers> Huh?
  283. # [13:08] * annevk checks
  284. # [13:08] <Smylers> A ‘counter’ change proposal can't explain what it's countering?
  285. # [13:09] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  286. # [13:09] <Smylers> Anyway, I'm still hacking on that page — I'll let you know here when I've finished playing with it.
  287. # [13:09] <Philip`> annevk: Oh, yeah, it won't help if you use the lxml serialiser, though I vaguely remember the lxml serialiser being buggy anyway
  288. # [13:09] <annevk> I guess it's okay
  289. # [13:10] <annevk> Philip`, well then complete/ is buggy
  290. # [13:10] <annevk> I have not installed html5lib
  291. # [13:10] * Philip` doesn't remember what the bugs were, or if he's just imagining it
  292. # [13:10] <Philip`> Easiest way to test is to run it both ways and diff the output, I guess
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  295. # [13:11] <annevk> I'll take the lazy approach and fix bugs as they are reported
  296. # [13:16] <Philip`> Hmm, I don't see any obvious differences except for character escaping style
  297. # [13:16] <Philip`> and attribute order
  298. # [13:17] <Philip`> and escaping "{" and "}" in URL attributes
  299. # [13:18] * Quits: benschwarz (~benschwar@59.167.185.148) (Quit: benschwarz)
  300. # [13:18] <Philip`> (and defaulting to emitting optional tags)
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  314. # [13:54] <Smylers> annevk (and anybody else): http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-140 now includes everything I wish to say on ISSUE-140
  315. # [13:55] <Smylers> Please edit, revert, and make less verbose at will.
  316. # [13:55] <Smylers> annevk: Thank you for starting this. I was planning on writing it anyway, so your start was a good help.
  317. # [13:55] <Smylers> hixie: And thank you for prodding me into actually doing it.
  318. # [13:56] <Smylers> I've left the summary alone, but am not sure it's now an accurate summary of the rest of the page.
  319. # [13:56] <annevk> feel free to change it
  320. # [14:01] <hsivonen> Smylers: what's the "Putting a Version Indicator in ‘Conforming Documents’ " section about?
  321. # [14:02] <hsivonen> I don't see Noah suggesting version indicators
  322. # [14:02] * Joins: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk)
  323. # [14:02] <hsivonen> oh. a version number in speech. not in the file
  324. # [14:02] <Smylers> Yeah.
  325. # [14:03] <Smylers> I don't like that heading either.
  326. # [14:03] <Smylers> But since Noah made a few separate changes, I felt the counter-proposal needed to address each of them separately.
  327. # [14:05] <Smylers> I meant literally putting a number in the middle of the term “conforming documents” as currently described by the spec.
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  329. # [14:06] <hsivonen> fwiw, Noah's proposed changes match the current practice in the UI of Validator.nu
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  331. # [14:07] <Smylers> Well for something other than the HTML spec to use the phrase “conforming HTML5 document” isn't tautologous.
  332. # [14:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: That may be taken as evidence that this is angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin stuff
  333. # [14:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe, but the pushback surprises me
  334. # [14:11] <Smylers> I initially marked the proposal as one I wished to counter because of its attempt to replace the description of an applicable specification with something fictional.
  335. # [14:11] <Smylers> I'm guessing that isn't the part of Noah's proposal that Validator.nu is in accordance with?
  336. # [14:13] <Smylers> While I also don't agree with the ‘conforming document’ changes, at least they wouldn't be attempting to assert something that simply can't be.
  337. # [14:14] <Smylers> So I considered writing a separate counter change proposal, but I didn't want to think about what W3C process would do if there were two different zero-edit proposals to consider ...
  338. # [14:14] <hsivonen> Smylers: back when HTML5 did not have a normative reference to ARIA, Validator.nu started having a HTML5+ARIA validation target
  339. # [14:15] <Smylers> Indeed. And I don't think anything in the current draft spec contradicts that being a sane thing to do.
  340. # [14:15] <hsivonen> I don't see how that was different from AutomotiveExtension except for not being a fictional example
  341. # [14:16] <hsivonen> Smylers: there's nothing contradicting it. It just isn't clearly said that that's how "applicable specs" work
  342. # [14:16] <Smylers> OK.
  343. # [14:17] <Smylers> I think it is clear, but that's clearly a matter of judgement.
  344. # [14:17] <karlcow> http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2011/02/usability-issues-with-adding-search-engines-to-web-browsers.html
  345. # [14:18] <Smylers> And the parts I find clearest are the ones Noah's proposal cuts!
  346. # [14:21] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.45.219) (Remote host closed the connection)
  347. # [14:28] <webr3> ''HTML5 redefines HTML, such that when it is published it obsoletes previous definitions: it will define a conforming document written in HTML, and indeed will be the only current definition of an HTML document.''
  348. # [14:29] <webr3> is "HTML5" fully backwards compatible, or will the previously "conforming" documents no longer be "conforming" ?
  349. # [14:31] <gsnedders> Previous conforming documents will cease to be conforming. Previously conforming documents will be processed the same way as by existing UAs.
  350. # [14:31] <hsivonen> webr3: backwards-compat in the HTML context means that stuff "works" not that it validates
  351. # [14:32] <Smylers> Won't most previously conforming documents continue to conform?
  352. # [14:32] <hsivonen> Smylers: no. assuming that "most" previously conforming documents are Transitional
  353. # [14:33] <webr3> but if there's no such thing as "conforming", how can they be non conforming?
  354. # [14:33] <karlcow> webr3: validation is for writing/authoring documents, html parsing for reading/interpreting.
  355. # [14:34] <karlcow> the rules for writing are not the same than the rules for reading
  356. # [14:34] <hsivonen> it's not really clear to me why people care about old documents continuing to validate if they aren't updating the documents in any way
  357. # [14:34] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/09/fixing-html-with-html5
  358. # [14:34] <hsivonen> I understand that people don't want to change a lot of stuff if they update an old doc a bit and then validate
  359. # [14:34] <webr3> karlcow, cheers and yup, i can see that in 1.2 of html5-diff
  360. # [14:49] <webr3> so, given all the specs that can affect things, the different versions of each (even if that's just hg revision up), it's not really possible to define what one would even be conforming to? html r.11425 + css 2.1 r.2342 + js r.185 + ...
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  364. # [14:52] <annevk> hsivonen, HTML5+ARIA as a temporary experimental setting seems fine, but eventually I would expect that option to disappear
  365. # [14:52] <annevk> hsivonen, I do not think that standards need to give advice on temporary experimental validator UI
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  367. # [14:54] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
  368. # [14:54] <karlcow> http://jeremie.patonnier.net/post/2011/02/07/Why-are-SVG-Fonts-so-different
  369. # [14:57] <hsivonen> karlcow: so the use case for SVG fonts is animated fonts???
  370. # [14:57] <jcranmer> not quite my thought
  371. # [14:58] <jcranmer> I basically read it as "the use cases for SVG fonts require what the implementors don't support"
  372. # [14:58] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  373. # [14:58] <karlcow> hsivonen: not what the article says.
  374. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jcranmer: if the use cases are what aren't now supported, seems all the more reason not to get on the slippery slope!
  375. # [14:59] <hsivonen> annevk: I expect HTML5+SVG *1.1* (rather than 1.2) to stick around for quite a while
  376. # [15:01] <karlcow> the article says: SVG Fonts very good for custom fonts design such as logos. Possible to do amazing things with animation but not necessary wise (aka design-wise), possibility to modify the font on the fly (styling, dom) through scripting.
  377. # [15:02] <annevk> hsivonen, SVG 1.2 is also not widely implemented by browsers so that seems natural
  378. # [15:03] * Joins: bfrohs (~bfrohs@24.231.239.6)
  379. # [15:03] <hsivonen> annevk: natural, yes, but my point is that one needs to say "1.1" to avoid ambiguity
  380. # [15:03] <annevk> hsivonen, I would expect the validator to sit somewhere between the features authors want and the features users agents supply
  381. # [15:04] <annevk> hsivonen, in the UI? I doubt most authors would care
  382. # [15:04] <zcorpan> karlcow: do browsers support changing the font on the fly?
  383. # [15:04] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  384. # [15:05] <hsivonen> annevk: yes, in the UI
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  387. # [15:07] <annevk> I hope it evolves into something like "is my markup conforming?" "well yes, it is"
  388. # [15:07] <annevk> with a "more details" link for when I really cared
  389. # [15:09] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  390. # [15:09] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting. that's totally contrary to the rhetoric I used when arguing against syntax-level versioning
  391. # [15:11] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107)
  392. # [15:13] <annevk> I like to view it how I use CSS. With CSS there's a bunch of features among disparate specs that I like to use. I do not care about how/where/why. I just want to know whether I use CSS correctly given the large intersect of specifications.
  393. # [15:13] <hsivonen> ITYM s/intersect/union/
  394. # [15:13] <hsivonen> right?
  395. # [15:13] <annevk> sorry, yeah
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  408. # [15:53] <annevk> fyi: http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/02/leave-of-absence
  409. # [15:57] <wilhelm> What's the planned route (if any)? (c:
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  412. # [16:00] <jgraham> wilhelm: You planning to send runners after annevk to make him work?
  413. # [16:01] <wilhelm> No, I very much approve of a long leave of absence for travel. I'm just curious. I haven't explored that continent yet. (c:
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  415. # [16:01] <Peter`> antti_s, so who's going to take over the last week posts? :-)
  416. # [16:01] <Peter`> Uh. annevk ^
  417. # [16:02] <jgraham> Peter`: Are you volunteering? ;)
  418. # [16:02] <Peter`> I already write last week posts :)
  419. # [16:03] <jgraham> Peter`: Right, so you are an expert :)
  420. # [16:03] <Peter`> I won't have time for it, sorry :(
  421. # [16:04] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@207.228.237.150) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  422. # [16:04] <jgraham> :) I wasn't really trying to pressure you into it
  423. # [16:05] <annevk> wilhelm, Bogotá - Buenos Aires
  424. # [16:05] <annevk> wilhelm, and some places inbetween :)
  425. # [16:05] <annevk> but really that is all that is certain
  426. # [16:05] <annevk> Peter`, nobody volunteered so far
  427. # [16:06] <annevk> Peter`, so it might be that just as when markp stopped doing them there will be another gap
  428. # [16:06] <wilhelm> annevk: Fun. (c:
  429. # [16:07] <Peter`> Your blog post hints that you won't be active between June 16th and the end of June either, that would certainly a nice period of time to fill the gap!
  430. # [16:08] <Peter`> A large part of the people who read it will receive public-html/whatwg mail anyway
  431. # [16:08] <annevk> I expect to be catching up then, so yeah I suppose I might write a longish entry
  432. # [16:09] <annevk> a first "WHATWG Quarterly Results"
  433. # [16:09] <annevk> well, maybe not results :p
  434. # [16:10] <Peter`> hah
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  436. # [16:11] <karlcow> https://wiki.mozilla.org/File:Firefox2011RoadmapImage1.png
  437. # [16:11] <Philip`> The spec bug reporting form seems to be getting much more abused recently :-(
  438. # [16:12] <Peter`> karlcow, "Ship Firefox 4, 5, 6 and 7 in the 2011 calendar year"
  439. # [16:13] <karlcow> yep from https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Roadmap
  440. # [16:13] <jgraham> I was about to say, the containing document is way more interesting
  441. # [16:13] <Lachy> Philip`, the spec bug reporting form is a constant annoyance that has several problems that need to be fixed.
  442. # [16:15] <jgraham> If it rejected things that look like markup it would cut down the spam greatly
  443. # [16:15] <Peter`> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/interoperability/archive/2011/02/04/the-indexeddb-prototype-gets-an-update.aspx
  444. # [16:15] <jgraham> Of course spammers might just work around that
  445. # [16:16] <Ms2ger> Then I wouldn't be able to paste the graduation example into it!
  446. # [16:16] <Philip`> jgraham: Hmm, it seems kind of a bad idea to ban HTML markup from HTML spec bug reports
  447. # [16:17] <jgraham> Philip`: s/look like/starts with text that looks like/ maybe
  448. # [16:18] <gsnedders> Peter`: What's the tl;dr?
  449. # [16:19] <Lachy> jgraham, the form should simply not submit bugs directly to bugzilla anonymously, but rather open up bugzilla with the fields filled out ready to be submitted by logged in users.
  450. # [16:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: The IndexedDB prototype got an update
  451. # [16:19] <Lachy> gsnedders, tl;dr is "too long; didn't read"
  452. # [16:19] <gsnedders> Philip`: Oh, okay. :P
  453. # [16:19] <gsnedders> Lachy: I know.
  454. # [16:19] <Lachy> oh, then I misunderstood what you were asking
  455. # [16:20] <jgraham> Lachy: Is that even possible?
  456. # [16:20] <Peter`> gsnedders, just updated to a newer version of the specification
  457. # [16:20] <Peter`> e.g. updates that other vendors who are implementing IndexedDB barely mention
  458. # [16:20] <Peter`> (as far as I can see, WebKit already adopted these changes)
  459. # [16:21] <Lachy> jgraham, I was looking at the wrong link and thought gsnedders was asking about the tl;dr in the Firefox roadmap.
  460. # [16:21] <jgraham> Lachy: "the form should simply not submit bugs directly to bugzilla anonymously"
  461. # [16:22] <jgraham> etc.
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  463. # [16:22] * Philip` finds it mildly amusing that the "tl;dr" acronym contains a semicolon
  464. # [16:23] <Lachy> oh, right. Yes, that should be possible. bugzilla has ways to provide values for the fields via the query string
  465. # [16:23] <Philip`> given the contrast between the gratuitously obscure grammar and the intentional ignorance/laziness implied by the statement
  466. # [16:24] <Lachy> so when you write a summary in the box and click the button, it should open up bugzilla within an iframe with various fields pre-filled based on what you enter, and then within that you can amend it and submit when ready
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  469. # [16:25] <Philip`> Lachy: The avoidance of needing to register and log in, and the avoidance of the Bugzilla UI, seem like most of the value the bug reporting form provides, and it'd be pretty pointless if you got rid of those
  470. # [16:26] <Ms2ger> ^
  471. # [16:26] <Philip`> Filling in a few drop-down boxes is a fairly trivial part of the process, if you're having to do it through Bugzilla anyway
  472. # [16:26] <Lachy> Philip`, the form provides convenience and simply staying logged in should not be a hassle
  473. # [16:27] <Lachy> the other alternative would be to continue allowing anonymous posts, but require that the anonymous posts go through a moderation queue first
  474. # [16:28] <karlcow> tl;dr is "too long; didn't read" is the recent new black in acronym world. geek fashionistas and coders tabloids
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  478. # [16:39] <jgraham> And purple sprouting broccoli is the new asparagus
  479. # [16:39] <jgraham> (except it isn't, of course)
  480. # [16:40] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  481. # [16:41] <annevk> Opera is not part of the Web Platform per Mozilla? teehee
  482. # [16:43] <Ms2ger> Opera? What's that?
  483. # [16:43] <jgraham> It's the thing where fat ladies sing
  484. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> Oh
  485. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> Not sure why that'd be part of the Web Platform
  486. # [16:44] <karlcow> annevk: Opera is the green box labeled the Web Platform.
  487. # [16:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: So when Opera ships something, it's outdated and over?
  488. # [16:45] <jgraham> karlcow: So everyone else is built atop Opera?
  489. # [16:45] <karlcow> jgraham: exactly ;)
  490. # [16:45] <jgraham> gsnedders: No, it's just that Opera is a precondition for armageddon
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  492. # [16:48] <karlcow> the browser icons also give a very limited view of the Web platform
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  502. # [17:07] <jgraham> Anyone know of any tests for the mimesniff draft?
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  504. # [17:08] <Ms2ger> Submission welcome ;)
  505. # [17:09] <jgraham> Well yes, but maybe someone did it already :)
  506. # [17:09] <annevk> I suspect abarth has some
  507. # [17:09] <annevk> and Hixie wrote tests
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  509. # [17:16] * jgraham wishes said tests were trivial to find
  510. # [17:16] <jgraham> unrelated observation that was already discussed some months ago: ln.hixie.ch is more ugly now
  511. # [17:24] <annevk> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
  512. # [17:24] <annevk> https://github.com/abarth/ietf-websec does not look like adam has tests though he must have written some when implementing it in WebKit
  513. # [17:24] <annevk> Gecko must have tests too
  514. # [17:26] <annevk> I deleted over 700 emails today
  515. # [17:26] <annevk> progress
  516. # [17:27] <jgraham> annevk: Thanks
  517. # [17:28] <jgraham> Hmm, Hixie's tests don't cover what I want (specifically feed sniffing)
  518. # [17:28] <jgraham> I feel like I am going to end up reinventing the wheel here
  519. # [17:29] <Ms2ger> Make sure you reinvent the wheel somewhere it can be found, then ;)
  520. # [17:33] <annevk> can't find tests in Gecko
  521. # [17:33] <annevk> just patches without tests
  522. # [17:33] <annevk> climbing time
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  531. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> I volunteer to moderate the anonymous queue. I agree that the spam is getting worse, at several per day. I think the spam volume is roughly on par with the legitimate volume now.
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  533. # [18:05] <miketaylr> I can help moderate as well
  534. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> We just need to actually make a queue, as I imagine right now it just autosubmits to Bugzilla.
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  536. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Wow, we got a ton of new people giving feedback in the csswg list over the weekend.
  537. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> I wonder if something in particular caused it?
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  540. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, weren't those old mails that got stuck in some moderation queue?
  541. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Were they?
  542. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> Some were, afaict
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  593. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Phew. Two hours later, done with replies to a single thread.
  594. # [20:24] <espadrine> Are iframes bad? Someone just told me he was afraid of using them.
  595. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> No
  596. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> No, though I've certainly seen them misused.
  597. # [20:25] <espadrine> Ah, good. I can feel good about myself then.
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  601. # [20:29] <espadrine> Is the srcdoc element of iframe implemented somewhere?
  602. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> I don't think it's public yet, but it implemented somewhere in Chrome.
  603. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Don't think so
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  605. # [20:33] <espadrine> How exactly is <iframe srcdoc="<p>hello"></iframe> different from <iframe src="data:text/html,<!doctype html><title></title><p>hello"></iframe> ?
  606. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Simpler escaping requirements, mainly.
  607. # [20:34] <espadrine> ah, good. thanks!
  608. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Also, we're hoping that all browsers that implement srcdoc will implement sandbox.
  609. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> The only character you need to escape for security in @srcdoc is " (you need to escape & as well to keep from accidentally swallowing small bits of content, but it's not important for security).
  610. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> So if you do <iframe sandbox srcdoc="<p>hello"></iframe>, you're hopefully guaranteed that it will be sandboxed if it appears at all.
  611. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  612. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Note that escaping requirements is the big advantage over things like <sandbox></sandbox>, too.
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  624. # [20:56] <estellevw> is the w3.org website down, or is it just me?
  625. # [20:57] <estellevw> back up, never mind
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  652. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Hixie, what sorts of tests should I write for createContextualFragment()? It seems like any tests would necessarily test the text/html parser to some extent, but I don't actually know much of anything about the text/html parser, so those tests should probably be written about someone else (and be put somewhere else, like in the HTML5 test suite).
  653. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Perhaps I could compare behavior to innerHTML, or only test simple cases where the parsing is clear?
  654. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Actually, in some cases it tests the XML fragment parsing algorithm, too.
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  658. # [21:57] * AryehGregor has no idea what "Unmark all scripts in new children as 'already started'." means
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  666. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, that means that scripts will run when inserted into the doc
  667. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> Okay, that sounds testable.
  668. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> hsivonen probably has tests
  669. # [22:12] * Joins: benschwarz (~benschwar@ppp59-167-179-123.static.internode.on.net)
  670. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> How can I determine a Node's namespace from JavaScript?
  671. # [22:12] <Ms2ger> Node.namespaceURI
  672. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> Actually, that's on Element in Web DOM Core
  673. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Oh, I was looking at Node and that's on Element.
  674. # [22:13] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@31-35-219.wireless.csail.mit.edu)
  675. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Well, that makes my life easier.
  676. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Although I think I found a bug in the spec while I was at it, so let me report that.
  677. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Or maybe not.
  678. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> Which?
  679. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's only a WebKit bug?
  680. # [22:13] <othermaciej> I don't think non-Element Nodes have a namespace URI
  681. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> Attrs, too
  682. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>alert(document.createElement("test").lookupNamespaceURI(null));</script>
  683. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Spec says that should alert null, WebKit alerts the namespace.
  684. # [22:14] * Ms2ger knows nothing about lookupNamespaceURI
  685. # [22:14] <othermaciej> what does lookupNamespaceURI do?
  686. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> annevk might remember
  687. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> But the definition of isDefaultNamespace() seems to suggest that calling lookupNamespaceURI(null) should return a string in some cases: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-node-isdefaultnamespace
  688. # [22:14] <heycam> it either looks up a namespace uri based on a prefix
  689. # [22:14] <heycam> or the reverse
  690. # [22:14] <heycam> i can never remember
  691. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> But the definition of lookupNamespaceURI() implies that passing null should always return null, at least for an element . . .
  692. # [22:15] * AryehGregor files a spec bug
  693. # [22:16] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@nat/google/x-nhqwkdzzvccqzjel)
  694. # [22:16] <othermaciej> is lookupNamespaceURI(null) supposed to give you the default namespace, or always null?
  695. # [22:16] <annevk> AryehGregor, the spec says it should return the namespace actually
  696. # [22:16] <annevk> AryehGregor, because if you pass null and namespace prefix of the node in question is null, the argument and namespace prefix match
  697. # [22:17] <annevk> AryehGregor, and you can return the namespace
  698. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  699. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Confusing.
  700. # [22:17] <annevk> it's like the first step
  701. # [22:17] <annevk> "If its namespace is not null and its namespace prefix is prefix return namespace and terminate these steps."
  702. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I didn't realize namespace prefixes could be null.
  703. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> I assumed they'd just be the empty string or something.
  704. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I'll use namespaceURI.
  705. # [22:17] <annevk> "Unless explicitly given when an Element node is created, its namespace and namespace prefix are null"
  706. # [22:17] <Dashiva> I had the fortune to be using the tidy java implementation of org.w3c.dom today.
  707. # [22:18] <Dashiva> public boolean hasAttribute() { return false; }
  708. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Now, is there any official way to figure out if a Document is an HTML or XML document? Or should I just test something like whether tagName gets uppercased?
  709. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> . . .
  710. # [22:18] <annevk> no official way
  711. # [22:18] <othermaciej> it would be kind of convenient to have an official way but there is not
  712. # [22:19] <Dashiva> Apparently it's not tidy enough to throw UnsupportedOperationException(), instead you put "not implemented" in the javadoc that nobody's going to see because it's hidden by the interface doc
  713. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, whether we're going to use the XML parser for all these things is still up in the air
  714. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> For all which things?
  715. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> createContextualFragment and friends
  716. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  717. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> So currently it always uses the HTML parser?
  718. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Should I just not test the XML case?
  719. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> The spec should probably say that in a note, if so.
  720. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> Probably
  721. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> (Also, someone should update this page to point to the spec: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/range.createContextualFragment )
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  729. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Oh look, createContextualFragment() behaves totally differently in WebKit, Gecko, and Opera.
  730. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Hurrah.
  731. # [22:33] <annevk> film at 11
  732. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> Actually, WebKit just throws NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR, so maybe it just throws unconditionally.
  733. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> Nah
  734. # [22:34] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-xyedwhwvdojxsemj)
  735. # [22:34] <othermaciej> WebKit has createContextualFragment()
  736. # [22:34] <othermaciej> I added it myself!
  737. # [22:34] <othermaciej> in, like, 2002
  738. # [22:34] <annevk> -> naptime
  739. # [22:34] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@33.115.34.95.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: annevk)
  740. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Why does it throw NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR here, then? http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-parsing-and-serialization/test/createContextualFragment.html
  741. # [22:35] * Quits: ROBOd_ (~robod@92.86.241.53) (Quit: .)
  742. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, what's the practical difference between <html> and <body> being the context element?
  743. # [22:35] * AryehGregor wonders why he's writing tests for this when he doesn't have any idea how the HTML parser works
  744. # [22:36] <Hixie> to learn how it works :-)
  745. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Should I spend a few days reading the text/html parser algorithm? It doesn't seem to have to do with anything else I'm doing right now.
  746. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Then we've got four people who understand it
  747. # [22:37] <Hixie> sure
  748. # [22:37] <Hixie> the more people understand it the better
  749. # [22:37] <Hixie> and if you're gonna be working on stuff related to it, best to know it
  750. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585819
  751. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, ^
  752. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> I'd think it would be more useful if I stuck to DOM Range and contenteditable, since there's mounds of stuff to do there and it has nothing to do with text/html parsing.
  753. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> But I could read the parser algorithm if you like.
  754. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, ah, makes sense.
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  757. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> Actually, that was the first thing I tried, but I wasn't sure I should be testing it specifically. But if it broke a site, then clearly that's what should be tested.
  758. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> The patch includes a test, fwiw
  759. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> Even easier.
  760. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> And https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=599588 has one for scripts
  761. # [22:41] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it's up to you
  762. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> Okay.
  763. # [22:42] <Hixie> AryehGregor: but if you do want to learn the parser, you can definitely consider it part of the work
  764. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Sure.
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  766. # [22:45] * jgraham suggests that reading the parser algorithm is not the most effective way to understand it
  767. # [22:46] * Philip` suggests that implementing it is a good way
  768. # [22:47] <jgraham> AryehGregor: So you have the whole universe of languages to chose from except python, PHP and java
  769. # [22:47] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-fxpqjrhpfaukhict)
  770. # [22:47] <jgraham> choose
  771. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> Too bad that includes a) my favorite language, b) the only language I'm really familiar with.
  772. # [22:48] <Dashiva> And ocaml
  773. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> Maybe I can take it as an opportunity to learn Haskell!
  774. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> I can learn two things at once that way.
  775. # [22:48] <Dashiva> Why not go?
  776. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> It's an official Google language now!
  777. # [22:48] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  778. # [22:48] <Dashiva> \hipstercat
  779. # [22:50] <jgraham> A Haskell implementation would be awesome
  780. # [22:50] <Philip`> Some of the spec's algorithms really don't map very well onto functional languages
  781. # [22:50] <jgraham> I occasionally think it would be a good way to learn haskell
  782. # [22:50] <Philip`> but if you reverse-engineer them to figure out what they're actually doing, you can reimplement them and check it at least passes the test cases
  783. # [22:50] <jgraham> Then I realise what I really mean is "challenging"
  784. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Hahaha.
  785. # [22:52] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
  786. # [22:52] <Dashiva> jgraham: Okay, fine, do it in FORTRAN then
  787. # [22:53] <jgraham> Dashiva: I know a fair amount of Fortran 90... but yeah the idea isn't making me happy :)
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  789. # [22:53] <Dashiva> 90? Bah, humbug
  790. # [22:53] <Dashiva> 77 is all you need
  791. # [22:55] <jgraham> Well only if you are a masochist^Wacademic
  792. # [22:55] * Quits: Necrathex (~nectop@dhcp-077-249-098-024.chello.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
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  794. # [22:55] <Dashiva> But honestly, I didn't find it that bad
  795. # [22:56] <jgraham> Hmm, maybe doing it in F90 wouldn't be so hard
  796. # [22:56] <Dashiva> I think people just overrate it because it's often mentioned in the same sentence as COBOL
  797. # [22:56] <jgraham> But supremely pointless
  798. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> This frightens me: "@var $b Roman"; p { font-family: "Times New $b; }"
  799. # [22:56] <jgraham> Oh, for numerics Fortran is nicer than C
  800. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, and it should!
  801. # [22:57] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Why?
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  804. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that should be illegal.
  805. # [23:00] <AryehGregor> (just on principle)
  806. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Indeed, and it is. Holy god, it is.
  807. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Variables as character-level macros are an abomination.
  808. # [23:00] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20101230#l-326
  809. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Huh, wonder how I missed that last year.
  810. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Um, that might work. pending() still confused me a bit.
  811. # [23:01] <Ms2ger> Marvelous Hixieisms
  812. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Also: nobody implements it. display:marker is a much more restricted form, and probably easier to implement.
  813. # [23:02] <Hixie> pending() is a terrible idea
  814. # [23:02] <Hixie> please find a better solution
  815. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Will do.
  816. # [23:03] <Ms2ger> :(
  817. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> When I pick up G&RC I'll be ripping out most of it so it can just function as a place to specify already-existing things better.
  818. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Then I'll review what was ripped out for G&RC 2.
  819. # [23:03] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  820. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> s/2/4/, I guess.
  821. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Our numbering is confusing on purpose.
  822. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I'm off to a meeting. bbl
  823. # [23:04] <Ms2ger> It is the Garbage Collection Placeholder Module, after all
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  829. # [23:10] <othermaciej> what's G&RC?
  830. # [23:10] <Peter`> Generated and Replaced Content
  831. # [23:10] <Peter`> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-content
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  849. # [23:48] <othermaciej> ah
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  852. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: You're confusing G&RC with GPCM.
  853. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> s/GPCM/GCPM/
  854. # Session Close: Tue Feb 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)