/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-08 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Feb 08 00:00:00 2011
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15. # [00:34] <key> hello
16. # [00:35] <Hixie> hello
17. # [00:35] <key> i've been developing since '97, the 3.2 days. i've been involved in the evolution of the digital world ever since. i feel <article> is good in concept, but poor in name. article implies syndication, journalism, etc written work. whereas the semantic purpose is more for the 'main content' of a page. i suggest <content> instead
18. # [00:36] <key> section and content are perfectly dialectic. 1 syntactic, 1 semantic
19. # [00:36] <Hixie> <article> is for syndication
20. # [00:36] <Hixie> see the spec :-)
21. # [00:36] <hober> But <article> can be used in secondary, non-main-part-of-the-page places
22. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> Syndication is more-or-less the semantic you want for <article>, though. <article> is a section that is appropriate for linking to individually.
23. # [00:36] <key> see, this is the ambiguity i'm talking about
24. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> It's probably too late to change the names. Some of them aren't quite right, but we'll never have a stable spec if we keep on arguing about them.
25. # [00:37] <hober> and, of course, you can have multiple first-level <article>s
26. # [00:37] <hober> there's no ambiguity
27. # [00:37] <Hixie> the word "syndication" is in the first sentence of the definition of <article> in fact
28. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Not that we'll ever have a stable spec anyway.
29. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Nor do we want one. But this part could be stable.
30. # [00:37] <key> if a corporate site uses a menu for site structure + context, the main content of the page would not be proper for syndication
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32. # [00:37] <hober> so you shouldn't use <article> in that case
33. # [00:38] <key> yet it would still be helpful to denote the 'main content' of the page
34. # [00:38] <hober> the main content is everything besides the non-main content
35. # [00:38] <key> what, so we have use-speicific tags now? TBL be damned
36. # [00:38] <key> yes
37. # [00:38] <hober> if you must, call it <div id="main">
38. # [00:38] <key> and it should have a semantic identity
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40. # [00:39] <key> uh, weak. i literally know a whole camp of html 5 developers who are using the perceived looseness of article to refer to their main content, even if not intended for distribution
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42. # [00:39] <key> i don't even see why there's a tag for content on the basis of syndication or not
43. # [00:39] <key> again, <article> should be renamed <content>
44. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> People misuse everything.
45. # [00:40] <hober> There are lots of web pages on which it's semantically appropriate to use <article> for what you're calling the main content. There are many web sites where that's inappropriate from a semantic standpoint. It just depends on the page.
46. # [00:40] <key> and this is why the web is a toilet to dev for; lazy spec developers
47. # [00:40] <key> let me ask this: do you expect large corporations to wrap their page specific content in <article>?
48. # [00:41] <hober> no. I expect them to wrap articles in <article>.
49. # [00:41] <tantek> if they would syndicate it as an independent item of content in a feed - then yes, I would expect them to wrap it in an <article>
50. # [00:41] <key> corporate web sites are not intending to distribute their page content sans context. you and i both know this.
51. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> tantek: And that's equivalent to what hober said. ^_^
52. # [00:41] <key> do you guys not see the gap i'm shining light on?
53. # [00:41] <Hixie> key: if we rename <article> to <content>, people will think it's for their main content, when it is in fact for syndication.
54. # [00:41] <hober> key: we see that there's currently no eelemtn for "the main section of the page"
55. # [00:41] <key> the syndication attribute of article needs to be removed, leaving a generic <content>
56. # [00:41] <tantek> TabAtkins - no hober said articles in <article> - that's a tautology :P
57. # [00:41] <hober> but that has nothing to do with <article.
58. # [00:42] <key> no, <content> would be for any unit of content
59. # [00:42] <key> whole and complete
60. # [00:42] <tantek> key - that's what <section> is for
61. # [00:42] <Hixie> we already have a generic "main content of page" element, it's <body>
62. # [00:42] <key> heh
63. # [00:42] <hober> Hixie: indeed, I misspoke
64. # [00:42] <key> yea, the spec sure is tight and clean.
65. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> tantek: Only if you claim that the "article-ness" of a piece of content is defined solely through what it's wrapped in.
66. # [00:42] <tantek> and now you understand the difference between <body> <section> and <article>
67. # [00:42] <key> hixie, there is a difference just as there is HEAD and HEADER
68. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> tantek: If you assume that article-ness if an independent quality, then it makes sense.
69. # [00:43] <tantek> congratulations - quick, write it up in an FAQ :)
70. # [00:43] <key> 1 is for message, the other is semantic
71. # [00:43] <hober> tantek: it's probably already in there
72. # [00:43] <Hixie> <head> is a historical artefact, <header> is to help authors not have to use <div> for a common class="header" case
73. # [00:43] <tantek> hober - if so, point to it :P
74. # [00:43] * tantek is not particularly fond of <head> either
75. # [00:44] <key> hixie, there is the structure of the message, then there is the semantic partitioning of the content (body) of the message
76. # [00:44] <key> uh
77. # [00:44] <key> you guys should /not/ be developing specs for the web
78. # [00:44] <Hixie> you are welcome to do it in our stead :-)
79. # [00:44] <tantek> key - you're welcome to fork and do a better job :P
80. # [00:44] <tantek> lol
81. # [00:44] <key> i'm actually working on it
82. # [00:44] <Hixie> the spec is under a license that allows forking for exactly this reason
83. # [00:45] <Hixie> all you have to do is convince the browser vendors that you're doing a better job, and your spec will be the official one :-)
84. # [00:45] <Hixie> or at least, as official as the whatwg's one today
85. # [00:45] <key> i'm sorry you guys want to squeeze everything web into the character of a blog.
86. # [00:45] <tantek> key - no need to strawman - https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Straw_man
87. # [00:46] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-axwdenaosbzmygds)
88. # [00:46] <key> i know what strawman means, and i did not ply that scheme
89. # [00:46] <hober> tantek: looks like it's not in there. Hence my 'probably' :)
90. # [00:46] <key> having a tag so semantically rigid as article is in fact a poor choice
91. # [00:47] <hober> Hey, it sure beats <address>
92. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> This is why open-source licenses are neat. They give you a way to tell people to shut up while at the same time feeling smug and self-righteous about it.
93. # [00:47] <key> i like most of the idea behind it, but it shouldn't imply anything re syndication!
94. # [00:47] <hober> HTML has lots of weird elements, <article> is on the less weird end of things
95. # [00:47] <key> so we lower our standards vs increasing them hober?
96. # [00:47] <key> i mean, wtf does that comment even mean?
97. # [00:47] <hober> key: then just think of it being an independent section, and forget anyone said anything about syndication
98. # [00:47] <hober> key: see the topic
99. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> key, the fact is, you're not the one deciding what goes into the WHATWG's HTML spec. So you can either try to convince people, or agree to disagree. Just telling us we're wrong is not really very useful.
100. # [00:48] <tantek> key - your statement "you guys want to squeeze everything web into the character of a blog" is a misrepresentation of our positions
101. # [00:48] <key> hober, but you damn well know the 'syndication' reference will give cover to people who want to scrape and rape ppl's content
102. # [00:48] <Hixie> key: the idea behind <article> is exclusively to allow syndication, so if you don't like that, you don't like the idea behind <article>. Which is fine, but you'll find it easier to convince us if you start from the standpoint of what you actually want than saying you agree to something you actually disagree with.
103. # [00:48] <hober> wait, what?
104. # [00:48] <tantek> ergo strawman
105. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> I'd call it more like a "flame".
106. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> A straw man is really more when you *counter* an argument that your opponent doesn't hold.
107. # [00:49] <key> nah. moment, let me ponder
108. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> key: Your entire conversation so far has been a massive pile of insult, distortion, and flame. This is not how you conduct conversations.
109. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> Not when you merely accuse them of holding it.
110. # [00:49] <key> AryehGregor: yep you got it
111. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> The whole point of the analogy is that straw men are easy to defeat, because they don't fight back.
112. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> At least, not if you want to actually accomplish anything besides getting ignored.
113. # [00:50] <Hixie> wait what? now we're condoning rape?
114. # [00:50] <AryehGregor> If they aren't trying to counter the argument, it's not really appropriate to call it a straw man, IMO.
115. # [00:50] <jcranmer> . . . ?
116. # [00:50] <Hixie> man, this conversation went sour fast
117. # [00:50] <key> relax
118. # [00:50] <jcranmer> I just happened to look here and we're talking about rape?
119. # [00:50] <key> there seems to be 2 sides to article
120. # [00:50] <jcranmer> what kind of logic is... oh
121. # [00:50] <key> 1. syndication being implied. 2. unit of content; whole and complete
122. # [00:50] <key> i like 2, i think 1 is less useful
123. # [00:51] <hober> ok, so just don't worry about 1 then
124. # [00:51] <hober> how does it affect you?
125. # [00:51] <key> <content> would be semantically organizational, whereas <section> would be structurally organizational
126. # [00:51] <key> because we need a tag like it, semantically, but better
127. # [00:51] <key> hence <content>
128. # [00:51] <hober> the semantic of what you think of as <content> is different from <article>, and this is orthogonal to the syndication thing
129. # [00:51] <key> if it's about syndication, <article> should inherit from <content>, not <section>
130. # [00:52] <hober> no, because it's sensible for a page to have many <article>s on it
131. # [00:52] <key> yes and?
132. # [00:52] <hober> and, assuming I understand you when you talk about the nonexistent <content> tag, it would only be once a page
133. # [00:52] <key> it's also sensible for an article to be spread over multiple pages
134. # [00:52] <key> not necessarily
135. # [00:52] <key> the same as article, just with no implication re syndication; which is just odd
136. # [00:53] <key> i mean fuck, why don't you guys just make a <lolcats> tag? would compliment well your blog tags
137. # [00:53] <hober> I give up.
138. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> key, are you trying to be constructive here?
139. # [00:54] <key> yes
140. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> Then I regret to inform you that you're not very good at it.
141. # [00:55] <key> k
142. # [00:55] <key> takes ears to hear
143. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Uh, yeah. /ignore, dude.
144. # [00:55] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that whoever's listening, cursing at them and telling them they're incompetent is an ineffective rhetorical strategy.
145. # [00:55] <key> i tried reason, fell on deaf ears
146. # [00:56] <AryehGregor> Well, that's why I asked you if you were trying to be constructive.
147. # [00:56] <AryehGregor> The alternative would be that you had given up and were just venting.
148. # [00:56] <key> slightly
149. # [00:56] <key> it's frustrating to me. the web has so much promise that has yet to be realized
150. # [00:56] <key> we're decades into it now, it should be better than this
151. # [00:57] <key> the tag set should be complete and abstract, and not imply things irrelevant
152. # [00:57] <jcranmer> if you ask me, the semantic web is mostly going to be a failure
153. # [00:57] <Hixie> future tense?
154. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: No need to use the future tense. The "Semantic Web" was a failure.
155. # [00:57] <key> jcranmer: you're probably right. the temptation to try to create a tag for everything will overwhelm it
156. # [00:58] <key> should be a complete set of abstract tags, not tags for every kind of thing
157. # [00:58] <jcranmer> maybe the Semantic Web was something I didn't think it was
158. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> It punted on all the hard issues like trust in favor of solving the more theoretically interesting ratholes.
159. # [00:58] * jcranmer goes to check Wikipedia
160. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> I don't think trust was the big issue.
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162. # [00:58] <Hixie> trust is a huge issue
163. # [00:58] <key> eg, <nav>. i mean wtf, took me 3 minutes of thinking to come up with <menu> being superior
164. # [00:58] <AryehGregor> I don't think it was the fatal one, though.
165. # [00:58] <Hixie> it's also known as "spam"
166. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> You *must* solve trust. If you don't, the entire thing falls down immediately from the weight of spam.
167. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> I think the big issue was almost no one actually produced useful machine-readable data repositories.
168. # [00:59] <Hixie> the other huge issue is that it's nigh on impossible to get authors to write good machine-readable content
169. # [00:59] <jcranmer> the basic problem is that once you define content as being unstructured
170. # [00:59] <Hixie> the SW has punted on both of these issues in avour of syntax bikesheds.
171. # [00:59] <jcranmer> you can never go back and decide that it can be structable
172. # [00:59] <jcranmer> er, structurable
173. # [00:59] <Hixie> i maintain a hope that NLP will save the day
174. # [01:00] <Hixie> cos god knows we're out of other options :-P
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176. # [01:00] <key> NLP?
177. # [01:00] <jcranmer> I don't think you need to do full NLP
178. # [01:00] * TabAtkins has to force himself to not read that as "neurolinguistic programming".
179. # [01:00] <jcranmer> key: Natural Langage Processing
180. # [01:00] <key> oh
181. # [01:00] <key> heh, what do you think orwell's newspeak is for?
182. # [01:00] <key> reduce the speech-base, you make it easier to implement NLP
183. # [01:01] <jcranmer> although my attempt to extract HTML text by how the HTML was structured did turn out to be mildly failtastic
184. # [01:01] <jcranmer> now, granted, having about a weekend to implement it didn't help things
185. # [01:03] <Hixie> jcranmer: oh i'm not saying you need full AI. With each step along the NLP path, you get results. The better the NLP the more impressive the results can be.
186. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> NLP is more or less AI-complete, though.
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188. # [01:04] <Hixie> an example of incomplete NLP: translate.google.com
189. # [01:04] <key> "The article element represents an independent section of a document, page or site. It is suitable for content like news or blog articles, forum posts or individual comments." from http://www.alistapart.com/articles/previewofhtml5
190. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Full NLP, sure. Google gets by pretty decently without AI, though.
191. # [01:04] <key> see how people are interpreting this tag guys?
192. # [01:04] <Hixie> key: correctly?
193. # [01:05] <key> they aren't discussing the issue of implied syndication
194. # [01:05] <Hixie> that's fine
195. # [01:05] <key> implied syndication is a perversion of this semantic need
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197. # [01:06] <key> we need a way to denote a part of a web page as the main content area of the page, sans menu, extras, etc
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199. # [01:06] <key> what we don't need, is to have implied syndication along for the ride
200. # [01:06] <key> i don't even mind the name article, rather the spec definition including said implied syndication
201. # [01:07] <key> we have rss if people want to syndicate their content, why wedge that kind of stuff into html?
202. # [01:07] <hober> you keep saying "a way to denote a part of a web page as the main content area of the page"
203. # [01:08] <hober> as if that has anything to do with <article>
204. # [01:08] <Hixie> the main content area of the page, sans menu, extras, etc, is <body> with <nav> and <aside> removed.
205. # [01:08] <othermaciej> key, it kind of seems like you are coming in here with an attitude problem
206. # [01:08] <othermaciej> key: is that because you are frustrated and not sure how to express your point, or just because you're the kind of guy to come into a channel and throw off attitude?
207. # [01:08] <othermaciej> key: if it's the former, I can give you advice
208. # [01:09] <key> shall i answer? or would you rather just keep spewing from the mouth
209. # [01:09] <othermaciej> the best way to effect change in the HTML spec is to write up use cases
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211. # [01:09] <othermaciej> I'm guessing it's #2, in which case you should leave
212. # [01:09] <key> obviously you're the kind of guy who just asks rhetorical questions
213. # [01:09] <key> more of your assumption
214. # [01:09] <othermaciej> just because it's an open standards process and an open channel, doesn't entitle you to come in here and be a jerk
215. # [01:09] <key> straw man
216. # [01:09] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
217. # [01:10] <othermaciej> anyway, if you actually want to create change and not just vent, write up your use cases
218. # [01:10] <othermaciej> send to the mailing list
219. # [01:10] <othermaciej> start a discussion
220. # [01:10] <othermaciej> show data from real sites
221. # [01:10] <othermaciej> that is what works
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223. # [01:11] <key> hober, the reason i say that is that 'content' is one of the biggest outline parts that exist
224. # [01:11] <key> along moreso than header/footer, even
225. # [01:11] <key> without content, you wouldn't have nav, or any of the rest
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227. # [01:12] <key> hixie, are you saying that's implied by <body>?
228. # [01:12] <hober> but that's an entirely different issue than any problem you may have with <article>
229. # [01:12] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.33)
230. # [01:12] <key> my point is that we wouldn't need to create a new tag to fill this need, we could just clean up the definition of <article> and most likely change its name
231. # [01:13] <Hixie> we already have a tag for this
232. # [01:13] <Hixie> it's <Body>
233. # [01:13] * Quits: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
234. # [01:14] <key> so the main content area shouldn't show up in the outlining algorithm?
235. # [01:14] <key> or when you draw out a web interface outline, you don't have a special area for "content" ?
236. # [01:14] <key> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-articles-and-sections-whats-the-difference/#comment-667884
237. # [01:14] <key> he raises good points i'd say. opinions?
238. # [01:14] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@207.228.237.150)
239. # [01:16] <key> also, http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-articles-and-sections-whats-the-difference/#comment-680580
240. # [01:16] <Hixie> the outlining algorithm already handles all this
241. # [01:16] <Hixie> see the spec
242. # [01:16] <key> (re spanning of logical content units across multiple pages)
243. # [01:17] <key> also, http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-articles-and-sections-whats-the-difference/#comment-688922
244. # [01:18] <key> what i find is, when there is some issue that many are confused of, it isn't necessarily anything more than the topic being poorly constructed
245. # [01:18] <key> like the 7 series 'all nav in 1 button' bmw issue a few years back
246. # [01:19] <key> have you guys taken a step back and considered if perhaps article is poorly defined and constructed as a concept?
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252. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> No. We have irreversibly sunk into a bottomless sea of self-righteous delusion, never to emerge until we have destroyed the entire web platform through our willful ignorance.
253. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> Sorry.
254. # [01:24] <key> can you please be serious?
255. # [01:25] <Hixie> ok, who had AryehGregor down in the pool for "who will go sarcastic first"?
256. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> No again. Sorry.
257. # [01:25] <Hixie> hand in your bets people
258. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I'm pretty sure I was sarcastic at least once before that.
259. # [01:25] <Hixie> ah, must have missed it :-)
260. # [01:25] <key> yea, and i'm the jerk
261. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> key, seriously, this is not a big deal either way. Everyone's going to use the element however they feel like, we can't stop it.
262. # [01:25] <key> i try to have a serious discussion and get the peanut gallery taking a shit
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264. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> If it's not named so wisely, well, it's hardly the first in that regard.
265. # [01:26] <Hixie> key: your tone has not been one that one would describe as a serious discussion, as many people have already pointed out to you
266. # [01:26] <key> so why don't we just use tables for layout? if proper tag use doesn't matter
267. # [01:26] <Hixie> key: and people have now tuned you out because of your tone
268. # [01:26] <key> oh my tone? does it hurt your spineless jellyfish bodies?
269. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> That has quantifiable accessibility impact.
270. # [01:26] <key> fucking children
271. # [01:26] <Hixie> case in point
272. # [01:26] <key> tough to reason with a channel full of queens
273. # [01:27] <tantek> key, your tone is inefficient for human communications. you are hereby /ignored.
274. # [01:27] <key> tantek, your pseudo-intellect bores me
275. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> The annoying thing about /ignore is you still have to read the other people talking to him.
276. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> Then you get curious about what he said.
277. # [01:27] <key> i'll just leave
278. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> Which defeats the point.
279. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> At least for me.
280. # [01:27] * Parts: key (~user@cpe-66-8-184-78.hawaii.res.rr.com)
281. # [01:27] <Hixie> irssi lets you /ignore the responses too
282. # [01:27] <Hixie> which is pretty awesome
283. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> Only if they contain his name, I assume?
284. # [01:28] <Hixie> yeah
285. # [01:28] <tantek> AryehGregor - btw - granted - you're correct, that was more of a flame than a strawman.
286. # [01:28] <Hixie> it doesn't have NLP yet :-)
287. # [01:28] * tw2113 apologizes for key, i'm the one that mentioned this room earlier over in #html5
288. # [01:28] <Hixie> tw2113: no worries
289. # [01:29] <tw2113> i was at work so didn't have ability to give full attention to any friendly arguements he had
290. # [01:29] <tw2113> and don't know quite enough to give authoritative voice :D
291. # [01:30] <tantek> Actually, should be fairly easy for NLP to detect both such trivial name-calling and above-average use of expletives to auto-categorize a participant as potentially unproductive.
292. # [01:30] <tantek> above-average *frequency* that is, rather than above-average sophistication
293. # [01:30] <tantek> could be a useful IRCbot
294. # [01:30] <tw2113> send those messages to /dev/null?
295. # [01:31] <tantek> as a first implementation. second, connect an Eliza-style backend to attempt to educate the unproductive participant into being more productive
296. # [01:31] <tantek> saving humans the time of doing so
297. # [01:32] <tw2113> i don't know how much formal introductions are encouraged, but i'm michael
298. # [01:32] * Joins: key (~user@cpe-66-8-184-78.hawaii.res.rr.com)
299. # [01:32] * Quits: benschwarz (~benschwar@ppp59-167-179-123.static.internode.on.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
300. # [01:32] <key> btw, where do you guys stand on capitalized tag names?
301. # [01:32] <key> rather, up-cased
302. # [01:32] <key> <HEAD> or <head>?
303. # [01:33] <key> personally, i do <HEAD attr="value">
304. # [01:33] <Philip`> The spec is intentionally indifferent
305. # [01:33] <tw2113> i think letter case has been made irrelevant
306. # [01:33] <tw2113> anyone can correct me if wrong though
307. # [01:33] <Hixie> wow, key wasn't gone long
308. # [01:34] <Hixie> spec says you can any case
309. # [01:34] <key> had a new thought
310. # [01:34] <key> yea im just asking personal prefs
311. # [01:34] <key> i know what the spec says, heh
312. # [01:34] <Hixie> <br> <Br> <bR>, <BR> all equivalent
313. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> I do everything lowercase.
314. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> Because it's easier to read.
315. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> And also it compresses better, if you want to be obsessive.
316. # [01:34] <key> ya? interesting. i find my style more readable
317. # [01:34] <tw2113> personal preference is personal preference
318. # [01:34] <Hixie> i capitalise the first letter, because my finger can't get off the shift key fast enough after typing the <
319. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> And also because uppercase tag names put me in the mind of 1990s HTML, before XML was introduced and all the trendy people started using lowercase.
320. # [01:35] <tw2113> :O which one holds more data weight? capital or lowercase?
321. # [01:35] <key> ew i hate capitalized style the most :P
322. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> I even use <!doctype html> instead of <!DOCTYPE html>.
323. # [01:35] <jcranmer> NO YOU'RE BOTH WRONG, YOU NEED TO USE RANDOM CAPITALIZATIONS
324. # [01:35] <key> at least be consistent!
325. # [01:35] <jcranmer> e.g., sCRipT
326. # [01:35] <key> kiddy
327. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> I do that in tests.
328. # [01:35] <key> i made my first cat shirt today
329. # [01:35] <AryehGregor> There are some examples in the spec that do it too, I think, just to make the point.
330. # [01:35] <tw2113> save file size! use the smallest characters possible
331. # [01:35] <Hixie> elements with odd numbers of attributes should be uppercase, and even numbers of attribute should be lowercase
332. # [01:35] <Hixie> so you can tell at a glance whether the number of attributes is odd or even
333. # [01:35] <key> haha
334. # [01:36] <jcranmer> oh come on, you can throw more data into that tag name
335. # [01:36] <Hixie> AryehGregor: none of the examples in the spec go quite as far as random case in the middle of tags :-P
336. # [01:36] <Hixie> i'm not quite THAT crazy
337. # [01:36] <tantek> that's silly. everyone knows UPPERCASE TAGS ARE FOR SHOUTING.
338. # [01:36] <Hixie> tantek: so <STRONG> but <small>?
339. # [01:36] <AryehGregor> Hixie, they should!
340. # [01:37] <tantek> Hixie, bingo
341. # [01:37] <jcranmer> Hixie: throw one in when you write an example on April 1
342. # [01:37] <key> tantek, <HTML> isn't intended for person to person communication, rather machine to machine, so the upcase convention of SHOUTING doesn't apply
343. # [01:37] <key> it's syntactic, not semantic
344. # [01:37] * key ducks
345. # [01:37] <jcranmer> it's quixotic
346. # [01:37] <key> haha
347. # [01:38] <key> now you're just being silly
348. # [01:38] * jcranmer points to the topic
349. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Well, if your HTML isn't meant to be read by humans, then why do you care about case?
350. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Figure out what's fastest to parse or compresses best or something.
351. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> (AFAIK, XHTML went with lowercase because it compresses better in typical documents.)
352. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> (Slightly.)
353. # [01:38] <key> i think you guys would benefit from having my mental stimulation regularly; i think i'll hang out here
354. # [01:39] * key sits down, pulls up a recliner
355. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Just try not to violently insult us all more than, say, once a week.
356. # [01:39] <key> ok, deal
357. # [01:39] <jcranmer> and preferably not on days that I have Abstract Algebra
358. # [01:39] <jcranmer> my head hurts enough after that class
359. # [01:39] <tw2113> avoid days that end in "ay"
360. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, oh, you're taking abstract algebra? As part of a computer science major or such?
361. # [01:39] <key> mm, get your ambiant calculus on
362. # [01:40] <jcranmer> AryehGregor: yes
363. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> I wound up semi-inadvertently specializing in abstract algebra for my (math) bachelor's and master's degrees.
364. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Every ideal is contained within a maximal ideal!!!
365. # [01:41] <jcranmer> if you want a detailed explanation on why all normal subgroups are kernels of some surjective homomorphism
366. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> (proof: Zorn's lemma)
367. # [01:41] <jcranmer> I am not your person
368. # [01:41] <key> btw, if i have a corporate web site (doesn't publish/syndicate content), would it be best to wrap the content area with <section> then have nested sections within it? or do the <article> with nested <section> jig?
369. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> That's trivial.
370. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Just take the natural map from G to G/N.
371. # [01:41] <tw2113> for what it's worth, i think the internet has syndication coming out its ass, so article is actually quite the best term for it
372. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Then that's a surjective homomorphism, and N is the kernel.
373. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> If you have any questions, ask in #math. They like people who are advanced enough to actually be asking stuff about group theory.
374. # [01:42] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
375. # [01:42] <key> tw2113: i'm inclined to agree, but what about the issue of a single logical article spanning multiple pages, and hence multiple <article> instances
376. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> (as opposed to the flood of calc and pre-calc and numerical computing and programming)
377. # [01:42] <Hixie> isn't algebra pretty abstract in its normal state? what is _abstract_ algebra?
378. # [01:42] <tw2113> what's wrong with that?
379. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> It's algebra where you prove stuff about abstract *types* of structures.
380. # [01:43] <Hixie> like lambda calculus?
381. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Dunno any lambda calculus.
382. # [01:43] <key> and even type taken abstract, ie abstract character
383. # [01:43] <jcranmer> Hixie: it
384. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> But regular algebra is where you make abstract statements about, e.g., the real numbers.
385. # [01:43] <Hixie> or dimensional analysis?
386. # [01:43] <jcranmer> 's where you decide that abstract vector spaces are too concrete
387. # [01:43] <key> nod, what AryehGregor said
388. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> In abstract algebra, you make statements about more abstract structures, like groups.
389. # [01:43] <jcranmer> so you decide to prove things using as few requirements as possible
390. # [01:44] <AryehGregor> The real numbers under addition are a group, so are the nonzero real numbers under multiplication, so are the invertible matrices under multiplication, so are zillions of things.
391. # [01:44] <key> tw2113: i've decided to use article with nested sections
392. # [01:44] <jcranmer> I would have mentioned the hard-to-understand theorem we had in class today
393. # [01:44] <jcranmer> but I forgot what it actually stated
394. # [01:44] <tw2113> have at it
395. # [01:45] <key> i liked the link you sent me that defined them as: article; whole unit of related content. section; related contents. div; null semantic
396. # [01:45] <jcranmer> something about using homomorphisms to inductively prove that abelian groups have an element of order divisible by p, where p is some prime or something
397. # [01:45] <key> it's the content semantic breakdown i'm looking for
398. # [01:45] <tw2113> one of those from html5doctor?
399. # [01:45] <key> yea
400. # [01:45] <Hixie> jcranmer: oh i understand why your head hurts
401. # [01:45] <key> or at least, one i found via it
402. # [01:46] <tw2113> good resource there
403. # [01:46] <key> word
404. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> A group is any set G together with a binary operation * on the set such that 1) for any x, y, z, (x * y) * z = x * (y * z); 2) there is some e so that for all x, x*e = e*x = x; 3) for any x, there is a y so that x*y = y*x = e.
405. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Then you prove stuff about them.
406. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, the order of any nontrivial group element is divisible by p for some prime p.
407. # [01:46] <jcranmer> ah, apparently this is Cauchy's Theorem
408. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Oh, Cauchy's theorem.
409. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> That's not just for abelian groups, though.
410. # [01:46] * Joins: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@fluffles.two-pebbles.com)
411. # [01:46] * Quits: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@fluffles.two-pebbles.com) (Changing host)
412. # [01:46] * Joins: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone)
413. # [01:47] <jcranmer> well, we only proved it for finite abelian groups
414. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> It's really a weak corollary of Sylow's theorems. I can't remember how to prove it offhand.
415. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> It's true for all finite groups.
416. # [01:47] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
417. # [01:47] <jcranmer> write something for 1/10 of the page in your notebook, that's how you prove it
418. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> That's only a few lines.
419. # [01:47] <key> tw2113: let's say i have an article with 5 pages. i wrap the first page of article in the template's <article>. now let's say i want to provide a link to the 4 other pages. would i put a <nav> within the <article>, and expect user agents to understand that as an article menu?
420. # [01:47] <jcranmer> actually, it's a lot
421. # [01:48] <jcranmer> I use graph paper for notes
422. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> One of Sylow's theorems states that if G has order n, and p^m divides n, and p^(m + 1) does not divide n, then G has a subgroup of order p^m.
423. # [01:48] <jcranmer> and I can squeeze three lines of text per square
424. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> Then all elements of that subgroup have orders that are powers of p, by Lagrange's theorem.
425. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> So just raise one to a suitable power and you get an element of order p.
426. # [01:48] <jcranmer> hey, Lagrange's theorem!
427. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> There's surely a much more elementary proof of Cauchy's theorem, though.
428. # [01:48] <jcranmer> a name I recognize
429. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's one of the most basic theorems.
430. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Where by "basic" I mean "important" or "fundamental".
431. # [01:49] <jcranmer> the size of a subgroup is a divisor of the size of a group
432. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Yep.
433. # [01:49] <AryehGregor> Thus also the order of an element is a divisor of the size of the group, since any element generates a cyclic subgroup of its own order.
434. # [01:49] <tw2113> someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i think if the nav is within the parent article tag, then ideally, the browser would associate the nav with that article
435. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> You can stack up lots of theorems that let you restrict what finite groups can look like. Once you get to Sylow's theorems, you can do lots of precise classification.
436. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> Like "there's exactly one nonabelian group of order 21".
437. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> (finite abelian groups are classified much more easily, using the fundamental theorem of finite abelian groups; they're all direct products of cyclic groups)
438. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> Anyway, have fun.
439. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> tw2113: Yeah, you can associate it with the nearest ancestor article.
440. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> I once tried to make a math joke in a programming channel and no one got it. :(
441. # [01:51] * TabAtkins is always somewhat ashamed to admit that he's bad at higher math.
442. # [01:51] * jcranmer recalls that he was going to look up what the topic of Wednesday's class would be to prevent a brain fart at the beginning of class
443. # [01:51] <tw2113> there ya go key
444. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Though to be fair, the math I do know still puts me in like 95th percentile at least.
445. # [01:51] <key> ok nice
446. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> (It was a pun on someone misspelling "discreet" as "discrete". I contrasted it to the trivial topology, but apparently no one knew basic topology.)
447. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> (For future reference, the discrete topology is the finest possible topology, while the indiscrete or trivial topology is the coarsest.)
448. # [01:52] <key> tw2113, TabAtkins, so this is how nested nav's are rational?; that they associate to nearest sectioning ancestor in their tree?
449. # [01:52] <jcranmer> you see
450. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> (Although I don't really know much topology, sadly.)
451. # [01:52] <tw2113> from what i gather, it's like that for most of them
452. # [01:52] <jcranmer> topology is considered magic to the rest of us
453. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Topology is neat.
454. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> Neat but magic.
455. # [01:53] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@2002:d106:7be0:1234:219:e3ff:fe08:8ad3)
456. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> At least at a basic level, it seems much slicker to me than group theory.
457. # [01:53] <jcranmer> I barely held my way through differential equations
458. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Algebra generally involves more computation than topology, and less visual thinking.
459. # [01:53] <jcranmer> I can get a hold of abstract algebra if I actually do some stuff with it
460. # [01:53] <AryehGregor> Differential equations is pretty much just memorizing types of equations and practicing so you can solve them fast, isn't it?
461. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> I took a differential equations course for the heck of it. Pretty boring.
462. # [01:54] <jcranmer> I don't know how I got an A in that class
463. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> You can't really understand any math unless you do stuff with it.
464. # [01:54] <jcranmer> I somehow managed to be able to do it without understanding what I'm doing it
465. # [01:54] <key> tw2113: as witnessed by section being nestable?
466. # [01:54] <key> i mean, in regards to your mention of recursiveness
467. # [01:54] <jcranmer> I can spout out the names of stuff, and I have a vague idea of how it works
468. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, you realize that all basic undergrad math courses teach you how to do stuff without understanding it?
469. # [01:55] * AryehGregor doesn't remember how to solve anything but linear ordinary differential equations with constant coefficients
470. # [01:55] <jcranmer> no, no, calculus you understand
471. # [01:55] <key> AryehGregor: yea isn't that a pity?
472. # [01:55] <key> makes a bunch of calculators, not thinkers
473. # [01:55] * AryehGregor could maybe do polynomial coefficients -- that's Taylor series, right?
474. # [01:55] * Parts: franksalim (~frank@99-123-6-19.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) ("Ex-Chat")
475. # [01:55] <jcranmer> well, I was taught calculus at a more theoretical level
476. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> You can sort of understand calculus, but not really, unless you do it all with proofs.
477. # [01:55] <jcranmer> we did proofs
478. # [01:55] <tw2113> yes key
479. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> And actually are required to know all the proofs.
480. # [01:55] <jcranmer> oh god, we did proofs
481. # [01:55] <jcranmer> we stopped short of doing real analysis
482. # [01:56] <jcranmer> but I do recall proving taylor's theorem
483. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> The key question is: were you required to prove things that weren't discussed in class? I.e., did you have exercises of the form "prove this thing you've never seen before"?
484. # [01:56] <jcranmer> yep
485. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> Okay, then it sounds like a serious course.
486. # [01:57] <jcranmer> that was also very prevalent in abstract vector spaces
487. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> In my college, only math majors took courses like that, as far as I could tell.
488. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> Mostly only pure math majors.
489. # [01:57] <key> tw2113: ok so let's say you have your nav bar in your header. so you put <nav> in <header>. does this associate the menu to the header vs the whole document/site?
490. # [01:57] <jcranmer> I even tripped up in one theorem because I assumed only finite-dimensional vector spaces
491. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> Infinite-dimensional vector spaces aren't nearly as well-behaved.
492. # [01:57] <jcranmer> well, it could be countably infinite-dimensional and still work
493. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> Hah.
494. # [01:58] <jcranmer> the proof broke down for uncountably infinite
495. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> What result were you using that held for only countable dimensions?
496. # [01:58] <jcranmer> I forget
497. # [01:58] <tw2113> depends, which header are we talking about?
498. # [01:58] <jcranmer> let me check my noteboke
499. # [01:58] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me)
500. # [01:58] <key> tw2113: <header> tag
501. # [01:58] <tw2113> for the site? for the article?
502. # [01:58] <key> site
503. # [01:58] * AryehGregor can't think of any relevant ones offhand, that couldn't be patched up with some axiom of choice
504. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> Maybe you used induction or recursion?
505. # [01:59] <key> (all i do on my site header is show the current date+time)
506. # [01:59] <tw2113> then the nav within that one, would be associated with the header, which i assume would be assocaited with the site
507. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> That's my bet.
508. # [01:59] <tw2113> being the top level header
509. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> Like Graham-Schmidt.
510. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> Only works in countable dimensions.
511. # [01:59] <key> ok so you don't think a nav in a root level header would be 'buried' from proper prominence ?
512. # [01:59] <key> considering screen readers, etc
513. # [02:00] <tw2113> and if you use WAI-ARIA stuff, you can give that nav a role and it'd be known as the primary nav to assisted browsing
514. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> If you try to extend it, you have to subtract off infinitely many pieces from a vector, which is impossible.
515. # [02:00] <jcranmer> ah, I did an explicit enumeration of the elements in the basis
516. # [02:00] <key> tw2113: sure, but i'm starting with logical organization first
517. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> And then did what with it?
518. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> You can get away with that stuff sometimes in uncountable dimensions, as long as you're using the axiom of choice.
519. # [02:00] <tw2113> no i don't think it'd end up buried
520. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> (If you aren't, then you can't assume a basis to begin with in uncountable dimensions, so no point in going there.)
521. # [02:01] <key> thanks tw2113
522. # [02:01] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
523. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> (Since the axiom of choice is equivalent to "All vector spaces have a basis.")
524. # [02:01] <jcranmer> The question was to prove that
525. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> To prove what? That the axiom of choice is equivalent to all vector spaces have a basis?
526. # [02:01] <jcranmer> If S is a subset of a vector space V, and T is a subspace of V, then prove that L(S) is a subset of T.
527. # [02:02] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
528. # [02:02] <AryehGregor> L being what?
529. # [02:02] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
530. # [02:02] <jcranmer> the set of linear combinations of S
531. # [02:02] <jcranmer> well, linear combinations of elements of S
532. # [02:03] <AryehGregor> Then it's clearly wrong. Let S be V, for instance, and T be a proper subspace.
533. # [02:03] <AryehGregor> Maybe you meant S is a subset of T, and prove that L(S) is a subspace of T?
534. # [02:03] <jcranmer> sorry, S is a subset of T
535. # [02:03] <karlcow> I was trying to find out today if we there was a discussion about a "type" attribute for "input" element which would pop a map to select a location and sends back latitude/longitude
536. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it follows directly from the definition of a subspace, which is basically "contains zero and is closed under linear combinations". Unless you define subspaces differently.
537. # [02:04] <AryehGregor> Definitely not a basis-dependent question, not a good idea to bring those into it.
538. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> karlcow, it's been discussed, but the consensus so far has been that it's best not to add new features like that barring strong demand, until we have good implementations of the existing ones.
539. # [02:05] <jcranmer> I had assumed that S was finite
540. # [02:05] <AryehGregor> (plural)
541. # [02:05] <jcranmer> well, it probably would have worked if S was countably infinite
542. # [02:05] <TabAtkins> karlcow: In other words, let the implementations catch up first.
543. # [02:05] <karlcow> ok
544. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> karlcow: That said, I know we have some internal interest in doing type=location.
545. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> So when we do add it, Webkit should be happy about it.
546. # [02:06] <karlcow> TabAtkins: do you remember links do discussions?
547. # [02:06] * karlcow has to step out suddenly
548. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> karlcow: No, I just know water-cooler talk.
549. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> I also have to leave now, so I can give the car to my wife for the night.
550. # [02:07] <AryehGregor> And I'm off the computer for the night.
551. # [02:07] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, have fun with your abstract algebra!
552. # [02:09] <jcranmer> will do
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554. # [02:24] <Hixie> anyone got IE9 handy?
555. # [02:25] <boogyman> yup
556. # [02:25] <tw2113> i don't even have windows handy :D
557. # [02:27] <key> http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py is failing, does anyone know of another outliner?
558. # [02:30] <Hixie> boogyman: can you install the ahem font (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/Fonts/Ahem/) and then go to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/ and click "download" and tell me what the picture looks like?
559. # [02:30] <Hixie> boogyman: assuming it even works in IE9
560. # [02:31] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@209.119.65.162) (Quit: chriseppstein)
561. # [02:31] <boogyman> on it like white on rice
562. # [02:32] <Hixie> did it download a script that has a try { } block?
563. # [02:32] <Hixie> and lots of fillRects?
564. # [02:32] <Hixie> and a font line that uses Ahem?
565. # [02:33] <Hixie> oh i misread what you said
566. # [02:33] <Hixie> i thought you said "it looks like white on rice" :-)
567. # [02:33] <Hixie> which i assumed meant it showed nothing :-)
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569. # [02:37] <boogyman> i don't think it's working properly
570. # [02:38] <Hixie> that was my worry
571. # [02:38] <Hixie> oh well, thanks anyway
572. # [02:39] <boogyman> p://i52.tinypic.com/e6vzpf.jpg
573. # [02:40] <boogyman> http://i52.tinypic.com/e6vzpf.jpg even
574. # [02:40] <Hixie> that's after clicking "download"?
575. # [02:40] <boogyman> yes
576. # [02:40] <Hixie> hm, hold on one sec
577. # [02:41] <Hixie> paste the text at http://junkyard.damowmow.com/448 into the textarea instead
578. # [02:41] <Hixie> use http://junkyard.damowmow.com/449
579. # [02:41] <Hixie> it has the right encoding set
580. # [02:42] <boogyman> now i see xep with some coloured lines
581. # [02:43] <Hixie> this is after installed the Ahem font?
582. # [02:44] <boogyman> yes
583. # [02:44] <Hixie> weird
584. # [02:44] <Hixie> wonder what's going on
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586. # [02:45] <Hixie> boogyman: what does http://junkyard.damowmow.com/450 look like in IE9?
587. # [02:45] <boogyman> give me a second, i'll install it directly in my root Fonts folder, I had a symlink to another location
588. # [02:45] <Hixie> ah ok
589. # [02:47] <boogyman> 450 has an X then a black square
590. # [02:47] <Hixie> ok excellent
591. # [02:48] <Hixie> did the canvas thing change?
592. # [02:48] <boogyman> http://i56.tinypic.com/2d7vl02.jpg
593. # [02:48] <Hixie> fantastic, thanks
594. # [02:48] <boogyman> stupid symlink
595. # [02:49] <Hixie> so the one time i was hoping microsoft might have not followed the spec, they did follow it :-)
596. # [02:49] <Hixie> ah well, can't complain i guess
597. # [02:49] <boogyman> haha
598. # [02:50] <key> should i use <MENU> within <NAV> ?
599. # [02:51] <Hixie> you can
600. # [02:51] <Hixie> if <menu> is what you actually need
601. # [02:51] <Hixie> see the spec
602. # [02:51] <key> boogyman: what is that web interface?
603. # [02:52] <boogyman> I'm running the crap that is M$ Vista
604. # [02:53] <key> no i mean, looks like a function declaration in a web page, with a text area for the code of it
605. # [02:53] <key> like you can code a function through a web interface or osmething
606. # [02:53] <boogyman> ah that, Ian would be able to give you that answer
607. # [02:53] <Hixie> key: it's http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/
608. # [02:54] <key> oh cool man, nice tool
609. # [02:54] <key> btw, i love switzerland; especially lausanne
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614. # [02:56] <Hixie> i love switzerland too, so pretty
615. # [02:56] <Hixie> but i prefer california, as a place to live :-)
616. # [02:57] <key> which part?
617. # [02:58] <Hixie> bay area
618. # [03:00] <key> ah, yea. i lived in palo alto in the .com days, had a blast
619. # [03:00] <key> are you back in .ch?
620. # [03:01] <Hixie> nope, bay area
621. # [03:01] <key> ah
622. # [03:02] <boogyman> Ian, what do you mean lived .com :) it's just the beginning of the .com days
623. # [03:03] <Hixie> that was mr key :-)
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625. # [03:13] * key bows
626. # [03:15] <key> http://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/cto/2198949378.html
627. # [03:15] <key> might snag that
628. # [03:15] <key> anyone else into vintage surf rides?
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632. # [03:25] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/vjpeztiw7fkzjzsfoxpua <- any critiques of my outline?
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788. # [10:05] <annevk> <span title="dom-FormData-form">Constructor(<span>HTMLFormElement</span> <var>form</var>)</span>
789. # [10:05] <annevk> is the proper way to write it down right?
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792. # [10:08] * Dashiva wonders how many of the fields in the IANA registration are long obsolete
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794. # [10:10] <key> what's the preferred way to make your content be constrained to 960 px wide and centered in <body>?
795. # [10:10] <annevk> body { max-width:960px; margin:0 auto } ?
796. # [10:10] <key> i was thinking something like <BODY><ARTICLE> and putting the styling on article
797. # [10:10] <annevk> whatever suits you then
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799. # [10:11] <key> well i like your idea
800. # [10:11] <key> i just didn't know we could do that
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803. # [10:14] <annevk> aah damnit
804. # [10:14] <annevk> there's no hook in HTML5 for "constructing the form data set"
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806. # [10:19] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12005
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808. # [10:24] <key> would you guys use <article> to wrap your web page? (let's say if you wanted to fix its width and center it)
809. # [10:24] <althie> I think div could be better for wrapper?
810. # [10:25] <Ms2ger> That would be a div, indeed
811. # [10:25] <key> oh, hm
812. # [10:26] <key> nice. something like <DIV id="document"> or?
813. # [10:27] <althie> key: yeah, same way you use article
814. # [10:28] <key> ok awesome
815. # [10:28] <key> thanks
816. # [10:28] <key> does div mean division?
817. # [10:29] <zcorpan> The div element has no special meaning at all. It represents its children. It can be used with the class, lang, and title attributes to mark up semantics common to a group of consecutive elements.
818. # [10:30] <key> i thought it meant division, and was the most generic container tag there is
819. # [10:30] <zcorpan> the above is the spec's definition :)
820. # [10:31] <key> i like divisino
821. # [10:31] <key> divisino
822. # [10:31] <key> division
823. # [10:31] <key> would it be better to use class="document" or id="document" ?
824. # [10:31] <key> s/better/precise
825. # [10:31] <Peter`> It'd be a container, not a document
826. # [10:31] <zcorpan> why do you need it at all?
827. # [10:31] <key> to fix the width of my web page, and center it
828. # [10:32] <zcorpan> you already have two wrapper elements (html and body)
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832. # [10:32] <key> is it supported to fix the width of body? isn't that something controlled by browser window width?
833. # [10:32] <zcorpan> it's supported since ie6
834. # [10:33] <zcorpan> if you care about ie5, you need a div
835. # [10:33] <key> is it possible to fix the width of body, yet still have the body bgcolor affect the entirety of the browser window?
836. # [10:33] <zcorpan> yes
837. # [10:33] <key> ok nice. so what would the css look like to do something like this?
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850. # [10:59] * jgraham wonders if the scrollback is worth reading
851. # [10:59] * jgraham wasn't convinced from skimming it
852. # [11:00] <annevk> no
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854. # [11:03] <jgraham> annevk: I think it is quite OK to have those tests in seperate files fwiw
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856. # [11:04] <jgraham> From my sample of one, I expect that they are not very well constructed tests
857. # [11:04] <jgraham> , however
858. # [11:05] <annevk> Microsoft dumps all their poor quality tests again
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860. # [11:06] <annevk> at some point I should write about that, so there's at least some perspective about them on the web
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867. # [11:18] * jgraham wonders what normatively specifies the toString of a DOM object
868. # [11:18] <jgraham> Does WebIDL cover that
869. # [11:18] <jgraham> ?
870. # [11:18] <annevk> think so
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872. # [11:24] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, why are you reminding me of Sylow? :(
873. # [11:26] * zcorpan agrees with hsivonen about script src/readyState
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875. # [11:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: maybe worth pointing out on the list if you dress it up more than "+1"
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878. # [11:37] <zcorpan> done
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881. # [11:51] <key> ok so if i wrap my web page document in a <div id="document">, i'll then modify #document to fix the width of the web page content and center it in body. sound proper?
882. # [11:51] <annevk> fwiw, Michael Kay commented on the HTML is the new HTML5 post
883. # [11:52] <key> ?
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890. # [11:56] <key> im having some trouble figuring out how to structure my web page
891. # [11:57] <key> the html
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897. # [11:59] <annevk> key, #html5 is probably a better place
898. # [12:00] <key> it's more conceptual than those guys can probably handle
899. # [12:00] <key> i need the spec authors' ear
900. # [12:00] <annevk> no you don't
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905. # [12:03] <key> i have a main menu at the top of my page, then a section which has a section menu + the content. so would i do nav id=main-menu, then section id="section", then nav, then article?
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929. # [12:25] <annevk> events...
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932. # [12:26] <annevk> registration / dispatch / event flow for nodes / canceling...
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935. # [12:29] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
936. # [12:29] <key> how would you guys html that up?
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972. # [13:58] <annevk> trying to define events anew is tough
973. # [13:58] <annevk> meh
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976. # [14:09] <annevk> I forgot how much a pain synthetic events were
977. # [14:09] <annevk> create / initialize / dispatch
978. # [14:09] <annevk> teehee
979. # [14:10] <jgraham> Schadenfreude?
980. # [14:10] <jgraham> Not the best quality in a spec editor
981. # [14:11] <jgraham> Although rather a common one if existing specs are any guide
982. # [14:13] <annevk> you missed </sarcarsm> somewhere
983. # [14:13] <annevk> sarcasm even
984. # [14:15] <annevk> I want to add the event model to Web DOM Core
985. # [14:15] <annevk> I guess I should just start writing and start over a couple of times
986. # [14:15] <annevk> just like with XMLHttpRequest
987. # [14:16] <annevk> I have the basic model sorted out, but there's a lot of variables
988. # [14:16] <annevk> (and then hope my description is better than DOM Events, otherwise there's no gain here)
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990. # [14:20] <Dashiva> </sadcarsm>
991. # [14:30] <karlcow> if you can't write it, draw it
992. # [14:31] <jgraham> Or fingerpaint.
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994. # [14:31] <jgraham> That should be fun
995. # [14:32] <jgraham> Get all specs people together with those big squeezy tubes of poster paint
996. # [14:32] <jgraham> And give everyone a red plastic apron
997. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> And paint the bikeshed
998. # [14:34] <annevk> events are so complex...
999. # [14:35] <annevk> once you reach dispatch
1000. # [14:35] <annevk> there's a whole path
1001. # [14:35] <annevk> and for each object in the path
1002. # [14:35] <annevk> there's listeners
1003. # [14:35] <annevk> which you need to filter and keep ordened
1004. # [14:35] <annevk> and then execute synchronously
1005. # [14:35] <annevk> and depending on what that execution does
1006. # [14:35] <annevk> you may need to stop
1007. # [14:35] <annevk> or continue just for this object
1008. # [14:36] <annevk> or continue in general but not follow the link
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1010. # [14:36] <Ms2ger> Hmm, does onfoo come before or after addEventListener?
1011. # [14:36] <annevk> it depends on when you set it
1012. # [14:36] <gsnedders> Does the order events are added have meaning normally?
1013. # [14:37] <jgraham> Yes
1014. # [14:37] <jgraham> Depending what you mean "normally"
1015. # [14:37] <annevk> listeners for an event have an order
1016. # [14:37] <annevk> and it's important
1017. # [14:37] <annevk> otherwise stopImmediatePropogation() would not make sense
1018. # [14:38] <annevk> not that I ever used that and not that this is not highly over engineered, but you know, it is important
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1021. # [14:53] <annevk> what happens when events are dispatched in subtrees?
1022. # [14:53] <annevk> hey MikeSmith
1023. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> hola
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1025. # [14:57] <annevk> e.g. if you have a DocumentFragment with an <a> element in it and you register a capture listener on DocumentFragment for 'click' and then invoke a.click()
1026. # [14:58] <annevk> I suppose that might potentially do weird things anyway given that the <a> is not in a document
1027. # [14:58] <annevk> :/
1028. # [14:58] <Ms2ger> And I guess people rely on whatever happens now
1029. # [15:00] <annevk> interesting
1030. # [15:00] <annevk> in Opera that works
1031. # [15:01] <annevk> in Firefox/Chrome <a> has no method click()?!
1032. # [15:01] <Ms2ger> Wut
1033. # [15:01] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/830
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1035. # [15:03] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3E%0A%20w%28%22click%22%20in%20document.createElement%28%22a%22%29%29%0A%20%3C%2Fscript%3E
1036. # [15:04] <annevk> no idea what is going on here
1037. # [15:06] <annevk> if I change it to a synthetic events it seems events work in any kind of tree though
1038. # [15:07] <annevk> s/synthetic events/synthetic event
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1041. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> That's only on button and input
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1043. # [15:10] <annevk> click()?
1044. # [15:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you happen to have demo cases that trigger the code path that makes Jing report what would have been allowed based on the schema?
1045. # [15:10] <annevk> oh, I wonder why
1046. # [15:10] <annevk> it works in Opera
1047. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: some in http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/missing-attributes/
1048. # [15:11] <MikeSmith> if that's what you mean
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1051. # [15:12] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, you sound unhappy to be reminded of Sylow. That's sad. :(
1052. # [15:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that's a spec extract, though
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1054. # [15:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what happened to adopting George Bina's Jing patch for generating messages from the schema?
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1057. # [15:13] * hsivonen has terrible memory
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1059. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, the theorems are fine, the proof isn't ;)
1060. # [15:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ooh. now I see it. doh.
1061. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I reduced George's patch to only reporting the element and attribute names
1062. # [15:15] <AryehGregor> Heck if I remember the proof.
1063. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: George's original dumped a string representation of the content model
1064. # [15:15] <AryehGregor> I've seen it two or three times, but I don't remember it at all.
1065. # [15:15] <Ms2ger> annevk, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=583514
1066. # [15:16] <AryehGregor> IIRC it's pretty tedious, the sort of proof you want to skim for form's sake instead of really understanding and remembering.
1067. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> My prof disagreed
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1069. # [15:16] <AryehGregor> Heh.
1070. # [15:16] <AryehGregor> Worst proof I remember seeing in a textbook was the Lindemann-Weierstrass Theorem.
1071. # [15:17] * Joins: realityking (~rouven@f049015250.adsl.alicedsl.de)
1072. # [15:17] <AryehGregor> It was several pages of completely ad hoc arguments involving a mix of Galois theory and complex analysis.
1073. # [15:17] <AryehGregor> At the time I didn't know any complex analysis, so I didn't even try.
1074. # [15:17] <AryehGregor> The result is very neat, though.
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1081. # [15:38] <annevk> what if you remove an element from the DOM that still has event listeners attached to it while you just dispatched an event and that element was in its path?
1082. # [15:40] <hsivonen> I guess I need to test that script readyState stuff before commenting on it further
1083. # [15:41] <annevk> I remember there being some compat issues btw with IE script loading but it's been too long :/
1084. # [15:43] <annevk> current DOM event spec seems to suggest stuff is still dispatched
1085. # [15:44] <annevk> sounds like making garbage collection a pain...
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1087. # [15:46] <annevk> the current DOM Events draft from shepazu also does not seem to take into account registering and unregistering of event handlers while other event handlers on the same object are being executed
1088. # [15:46] <annevk> I am pretty sure that ought to "just work"
1089. # [15:47] <annevk> which means the "event node path" is some kind of static list whereas everything else is pretty much live
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1094. # [16:01] <annevk> so basically
1095. # [16:01] <annevk> when an event is dispatched on a node
1096. # [16:01] <annevk> you calculate its "event node path" and store it
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1098. # [16:02] <annevk> then you start walking that, set currentTarget and target appropriately, and process the event listeners for each object in the "event node path" sequentially, taking modifications into account as they happen
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1100. # [16:03] <annevk> all the while looking at the event object each step of the way to see if propagation has stopped, propagation has stopped immediately, or the event has been canceled
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1102. # [16:04] <annevk> hmm, still not past this? http://html5doctor.com/html5-living-standard/
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1104. # [16:11] <annevk> a lot of the complexity is basically dispatching on nodes
1105. # [16:13] <hsivonen> does a realistic spec for progress events exist?
1106. # [16:13] <Ms2ger> Anne has one
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1108. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/
1109. # [16:14] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
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1111. # [16:15] <annevk> mind you, Gecko has extensions and nobody has documented them so far or told me whether they need to be
1112. # [16:16] <hsivonen> :-(
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1114. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> They're in the DOM LS spec
1115. # [16:26] <annevk> DOM LS is obsolete
1116. # [16:29] <annevk> Ms2ger, I might just check in some notes on Events as a comment
1117. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> Sure
1118. # [16:32] <annevk> if listeners are live you can create infinite loops
1119. # [16:32] <annevk> fun
1120. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> Infinite loops aren't hard, you can do them with loops
1121. # [16:33] <hsivonen> sigh. the progress events for scripts in IE are useless: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/script-readystate.html
1122. # [16:34] <hsivonen> there's no event when readyState transitions to "loaded"
1123. # [16:34] <hsivonen> there's only an event for "complete" after the script has run
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1126. # [16:37] <annevk> I do think this rewrite will make events easier to understand
1127. # [16:37] <annevk> teehee
1128. # [16:40] <jgraham> Hmm. How does one select text nodes in XPath? e.g. if I want the text node siblings of a given node?
1129. # [16:40] <jgraham> (XPath 1.0)
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1131. # [16:42] <beowulf> does postmessage allow you to talk directly from one iframe to another x-domain without the parent window listening?
1132. # [16:42] <annevk> ::preceding-sibling()::text() or some such?
1133. # [16:42] * annevk forgot the syntax
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1135. # [16:43] <annevk> preceding-sibling::text() it seems
1136. # [16:46] <jgraham> Ah, my mistake was assuming that * was short for node()
1137. # [16:47] <annevk> should just rtfs :p
1138. # [16:47] <jgraham> Well I was :p
1139. # [16:48] <jgraham> But I hadn't internalised the concept of principle node type
1140. # [16:48] <annevk> lies
1141. # [16:48] <jgraham> *principal
1142. # [16:49] <hsivonen> me wonders how often security principles and security principals get confused
1143. # [16:50] <hsivonen> ouch. IE seems to execute external scripts synchronously if the script has already finished fetching
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1152. # [17:03] <annevk> hmm
1153. # [17:04] <annevk> nothing in both HTML and DOM Events suggests that "activation behavior" cancels the event once the first element has been activated as far as I can tell...
1154. # [17:04] <annevk> I guess I can look at that later
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1159. # [17:08] <annevk> smaug____, the default action of an event, that happens when the event is through its entire propagation path?
1160. # [17:08] * smaug____ is in a meeting
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1165. # [17:14] <annevk> this is pretty much though what sucks about the current spec
1166. # [17:15] <annevk> it's very hard to tell how things happen
1167. # [17:15] <karlcow> http://www.mobl-lang.org/
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1172. # [17:32] <annevk> hmm
1173. # [17:32] <annevk> I guess default action is about object / event type / event trusted combination
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1175. # [17:32] <annevk> not event target or such things
1176. # [17:33] <annevk> though default actions are probably only triggered in the target/bubble phase
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1182. # [17:49] <annevk> so per
1183. # [17:49] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%20onchange%3D%22event.preventDefault()%3Bw(event)%22%3E%3Cinput%20type%3Dradio%3E
1184. # [17:49] <annevk> you cannot prevent the default action in the bubbling phase
1185. # [17:50] <annevk> actually, when I move that onchange to the <input> it does not work either
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1187. # [17:51] <annevk> ah, change is not cancelable
1188. # [17:51] <annevk> click is
1189. # [17:51] <annevk> until the very last moment
1190. # [17:53] <annevk> okay, so while the default action can happen earlier it can be undone until the very end
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1196. # [18:05] <annevk> Ms2ger, https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/changeset/6c7a0c465d83
1197. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Nice
1198. # [18:06] <annevk> I think I tackled the difficult part
1199. # [18:07] <annevk> I guess tomorrow I should draft all the concept-blahdieblahs
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1201. # [18:13] <annevk> feel free to hack on it btw
1202. # [18:13] <annevk> might be online later tonight if I get tired
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1213. # [18:41] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Some Chrome engineers want to submit bidi tests to the html5 test suite. What's the best way to go about this?
1214. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, push to Google's submission folder in hg and send email to the list
1215. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> (You need to be a WG member)
1216. # [18:45] <jgraham> What Ms2ger said
1217. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> Also, make markp fix his tests
1218. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Okay. The hg repo is just part of the W3C repo, right?
1219. # [18:45] <jgraham> dvcs.w3.org
1220. # [18:46] <jgraham> /html
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1222. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Is there a format guide?
1223. # [18:48] <jgraham> For what, the tests?
1224. # [18:48] <jgraham> Maybe on the wiki somewhere
1225. # [18:49] <jgraham> Basically the theory is either javascript tests using testharness.js (controversial), self-describing reftests (controversial) or manual tests (unwelcome)
1226. # [18:49] <jgraham> In tests/resources/testharness.js you will find documentation for that harness
1227. # [18:50] <jgraham> and apisample.html should give some idea of how to use it
1228. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Yay.
1229. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> s/controversial/IE team doesn't like/, s/unwelcome/IE team likes/
1230. # [18:51] <jgraham> Well the first controversial is more like "Mozilla team doesn't like"
1231. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> Well, they are rather verbose
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1234. # [19:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing is the wiki page btw
1235. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Ah, thank you.
1236. # [19:05] <jgraham> It doesn't actually tell you anything useful about how to write a test
1237. # [19:09] <jgraham> Or rather about the types of test that are allowed
1238. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> I just told them to either use the harness (and pointed them to the links you gave me) or make reftests (and pointed them to CSS's guides on how to make those).
1239. # [19:11] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Sounds perfect
1240. # [19:12] <jgraham> (CSS requires self-describing reftests, right?)
1241. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> It does now.
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1277. # [20:24] <Sirisian|Work> Are there implementors here that write prototypes for firefox or chrome?
1278. # [20:25] <paul_irish> i'm not sure what you're asking, but i'm fairly sure the short answer is yes.
1279. # [20:25] <Sirisian|Work> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557#c4
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1281. # [20:25] <Sirisian|Work> Maybe someone here that does that could prototype that in one of the browsers. Would be nice.
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1284. # [20:29] <Sirisian|Work> I made a post to the public-webapps mailing list also since Doug said it would gain more interest that way. Curious if more people are interested nowadays. Seemed like only one or two people cared a year ago for mouse capture.
1285. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Well, mouse capture is obviously a *requirement* for serious gaming on the web. You simple can't do mouselook without it.
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1288. # [20:33] <erlehmann> one day, i will make a shock site using all the new APIs :3
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1297. # [20:48] <Sirisian|Work> TabAtkins, tell me about it. I made that bug report a year ago when I was working on WebGL tests thinking it would magically get added. :P
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1320. # [21:44] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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1326. # [21:58] <webr3> hsivonen, just remembered, good mail re rdfa in html being subject to second guessing under html wg, fair and valid point - will be interested to see follow up responses (speaking for myself of course)
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1333. # [22:17] <Hixie> is XSLTProcessor defined anywhere?
1334. # [22:17] <Ms2ger> Doubt it
1335. # [22:19] <webr3> Hixie, possibly in some form in http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/ (I'd guess)
1336. # [22:19] <Hixie> i don't see any dom stuff at all in there
1337. # [22:20] <othermaciej> Mozilla has docs
1338. # [22:20] <othermaciej> from the lack of citation of a standard, I'd assume there is none
1339. # [22:21] <webr3> likewise, would be surprised if there was dom stuff tbh
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1341. # [22:22] <webr3> are theer any specs or work done related to different interface devices, like barcode scanners etc?
1342. # [22:22] <Ms2ger> <device>
1343. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> Barcode scanners are just keyboard devices.
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1345. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> In general, though, yeah, <device>. I've been poking around, looking for someone to help spec using <device> with HID devices.
1346. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> So that we can, for example, get access to game controllers.
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1349. # [22:23] <webr3> lol I hadn't even noticed the <device> element - better read up
1350. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Don't read too much into what the spec says.
1351. # [22:24] <Hixie> game controllers should just be event handlers
1352. # [22:24] <othermaciej> the implied permissions model of <device> doesn't make sense for game controllers
1353. # [22:25] <othermaciej> game controllers seem more like the keyboard, mouse, accelerometer or compass
1354. # [22:25] <Hixie> i think i'm convinced by the arguments by othermaciej, roc, and jamesr_, that we should just do things like ff4's geolocation rather than have an element for selecting a device
1355. # [22:25] <Hixie> though clickjacking has to be resolved first
1356. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> What do you mean, like just exposing an API for it directly, rather than through an element?
1357. # [22:25] <Hixie> yeah
1358. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> I agree with that.
1359. # [22:26] <jamesr_> i think we should start with some actual concrete use cases
1360. # [22:26] <jamesr_> the right API for game controllers is probably not the same as the API for a webcam
1361. # [22:26] <Hixie> concrete cases are easy
1362. # [22:26] <Hixie> (for webcam)
1363. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: So, I'm sympathetic to your position. Any ideas on how you would listen for arbitrary controller buttons?
1364. # [22:26] <Hixie> gmail's video chat
1365. # [22:26] <othermaciej> no idea
1366. # [22:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: this is actually already specced, it's a combination of the mousewheel and keyboard event interfaces imho
1367. # [22:27] <Hixie> what i think would be even more useful is exposing the mac remote
1368. # [22:27] <Hixie> to web pages
1369. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: The current <device> API is just a way of asking the user for a hardware stream. The individual stream objects can have specialized interfaces.
1370. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Where is it specced?
1371. # [22:27] <Hixie> i'm tired of having to use remote desktop to pause hulu instead of just being able to use the remote
1372. # [22:27] <jamesr_> TabAtkins: yeah, that's kind of not the point. the API you want and the permissions around it depend on _what_ is in the stream
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1374. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: A valid point.
1375. # [22:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the old dom3 note had a simple way of exposing any key-like input
1376. # [22:28] <jamesr_> i think treating everything as "a stream of data from the hardware" is throwing away lots of useful information
1377. # [22:28] <othermaciej> I don't know anything about what data is typically exposed by a game controller
1378. # [22:28] <Hixie> TabAtkins: not sure where the mousewheel stuff is
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1380. # [22:28] <jamesr_> when the sorts of data are really different
1381. # [22:28] <jamesr_> and i don't know of anyone that really wants to solve this for every type of hardware in the world. people care about particular use cases (webcam, microphone, controller) that will probably need different APIs
1382. # [22:28] <Hixie> of course if you're talking about modern controllers with their accellerometers and so forth, that's a different ballgame
1383. # [22:29] <othermaciej> old school controllers have buttons/triggers and the analog stick
1384. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> jamesr_, the idea is that you get an object that implements a specialized API
1385. # [22:29] <othermaciej> but in some cases buttons are themselves pressure-sensitive/analog, not binary on/off
1386. # [22:29] <jamesr_> Ms2ger: then what's the value of <device> at all?
1387. # [22:29] <Ms2ger> Getting that object
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1389. # [22:29] <webr3> would it even be possible to define an api that could be used by all devices of one category? or would it have to be more of an on demand loadDeviceAPI(foo) type thing
1390. # [22:29] <webr3> (like crypto in firefox)
1391. # [22:30] <Hixie> jamesr_: the value was the permissions model. but i don't think anyone is advocating for <device> anymore.
1392. # [22:30] * Joins: Anti-X (~loriisacu@c3373BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
1393. # [22:30] <othermaciej> some kinds of devices have a meaningful common interface
1394. # [22:31] <webr3> it's a wonder there isn't already a game device api somewhere from game manufacturors that could be ported and used (game devices just being an example)
1395. # [22:31] <othermaciej> Apple remote would be easy to expose as just key presses
1396. # [22:31] <roc> I think it's "USB"
1397. # [22:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
1398. # [22:31] * Parts: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-128.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
1399. # [22:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: we should do that
1400. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Well, "HID".
1401. # [22:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: it would be awesome
1402. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> HID is a simplification of generic USB, and you can simplify it further.
1403. # [22:32] <othermaciej> USB is not generally a useful application-level interface for many kinds of USB devices
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1405. # [22:32] <webr3> remote api for html? that'd be sweet, especially w/ tv and web wgs coming up
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1407. # [22:33] <darrel> TabAtkins: Barcode scanning input needs to be differentiated from keyboard input to avoid need for control focus.
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1409. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> darrel: I wouldn't know. My old company's product just installed a keylogger and listened for Alt+F12 to indicate that it should steal focus.
1410. # [22:34] <webr3> is there a set of requirements for what barcode scanners would need? if something was down I doublt it'd be the msot difficult thing to cater for, and probably worth it given all the html based pos terminals
1411. # [22:35] <darrel> TabAtkins: Alt+F12 was encoded into the barcode?
1412. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> darrel: Yes.
1413. # [22:36] <darrel> TabAtkins: Our enterprise app reads direct from the serial port and treats it as distinct input and we don't mess with the user's focus.
1414. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Oh, your scanner plugs into the serial? Ours was, like I said, just a USB device that masqueraded as a keyboard.
1415. # [22:36] <darrel> TabAtkins: Interesting workaround though.
1416. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> darrel, almost sounds like you're professionals
1417. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> You could open up Notepad and scan barcodes in.
1418. # [22:37] <darrel> Ms2ger: hehe
1419. # [22:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: i was thinking we should map the remote keys to up, down, left, right, and space (i'm guessing apple won't want to expose the menu key since it goes into front row), with the events having .location set to DOM_KEY_LOCATION_REMOTE (0x06, a new value)
1420. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Would they be events just fired at window or something?
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1422. # [22:38] <Hixie> just regular key events, fired like normal keyboard events at whatever has focus
1423. # [22:38] <othermaciej> Hixie: when/if we do this, we'd probably want to give <video> and <audio> default actions for the relevant events that DTRT
1424. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
1425. # [22:38] <othermaciej> so I dunno if we'd want to overload arrow keys
1426. # [22:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, that would just be the UA default action
1427. # [22:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: well the UA would check the .location
1428. # [22:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: the idea is just to make the thing already work on pages that use spacebar for pause/play
1429. # [22:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: without us having to do anything
1430. # [22:39] <webr3> darrel, last time i did a POS system (6 years ago?) we just programmed the devices to send a /n char code after the barcode because they too masqueraded as keyboard devices
1431. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> Masquerading as keyboards makes it easy to test if they're working. ^_^
1432. # [22:40] <darrel> webr3: I realize it is a common approach, it just is less flexible.
1433. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> darrel: Plus it means you have to know how to deal with virus scanners killing your keylogger.
1434. # [22:41] * TabAtkins shudders at the memory of a McAfee update that quarantined the logger for everyone.
1435. # [22:41] <darrel> TabAtkins: I hadn't thought of that side benefit :-)
1436. # [22:42] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- RFC
1437. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> darrel: Actually, I remember how it worked now. The Alt+F12 wasn't in the barcode. We had programming sheets you would initialize the scanner with before first use that would prepend any entry with that chord, though.
1438. # [22:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm here briefly
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1440. # [22:44] <darrel> TabAtkins: Yeah, barcode scanners have all sorts of funcky methods to customize the output to work around old VT terminal based software.
1441. # [22:45] * Anti-X is now known as torvalamo
1442. # [22:45] <Hixie> hsivonen: i was going to ask a question about your scripting bugs; ended up just asking them in the bugs instead
1443. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> Yay, I'm in the spec!
1444. # [22:49] <gsnedders> Transatlantic flights without a Saturday stayover are so expensive…
1445. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> Hixie, not sure why the DOMParser part is commented out
1446. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: So add a saturday stayover.
1447. # [22:51] <Ms2ger> Still expensive
1448. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Half the price.
1449. # [22:51] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
1450. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Or a third with some airlines.
1451. # [22:52] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Tempting. I'm at a concert the Saturday before going, so can't leave till Sunday, and need to be in uni by 16:00 on Monday.
1452. # [22:53] <jamesr_> if it's a third of the price, buy two trips and fly half of each?
1453. # [22:53] <jamesr_> it'd have to be the first half of each, obv
1454. # [22:54] <gsnedders> jamesr_: Hah, yeah, true :)
1455. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: What james said. Exploit airline stupidity by counter-gouging them.
1456. # [22:54] <gsnedders> jamesr_: There are more reasonable airlines where that isn't case. :)
1457. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Also: then use the return leg of each flight to take a second trip a few weeks later.
1458. # [22:55] <gsnedders> BA is by far the worse for this. It goes from £500 return to £1800.
1459. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Bleh.
1460. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> Make sure they don't cancel your return flight because you didn't turn up for the first, though
1461. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> They will, without question. You have to use the first leg for this.
1462. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> They are stupid assholes for it and I hate them.
1463. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Grrrrr.
1464. # [22:56] * TabAtkins had a bad experience with trying to innocently reshuffle international flights after my plans changed.
1465. # [22:57] <gsnedders> 1:15 to change from a transatlantic flight to a domestic flight at LHR. Why do I doubt that is reasonable?
1466. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> I suspect because it isn't :)
1467. # [22:57] <Hixie> Ms2ger: commented out?
1468. # [22:58] <Ms2ger> ..nts, <!--scripts in <code>DOMParser..
1469. # [22:58] <Hixie> oh, oops
1470. # [22:58] <Hixie> got the wrong line
1471. # [23:02] <Ms2ger> Thanks
1472. # [23:03] <Philip`> About game controllers: As far as I'm aware, the common API seems to be like in http://google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#PPdD7__6Qbg/src/xboxmsg.hpp - a load of 1/8/16-bit values which it constantly transmits over USB
1473. # [23:04] <Philip`> and if you want button events then you have to poll it (and if it's a more-than-1-bit button apply some threshold)
1474. # [23:05] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.154.97) (Quit: nn)
1475. # [23:05] <Philip`> I don't know what high-level application APIs tend to do with that raw data, though
1476. # [23:06] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1477. # [23:06] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
1478. # [23:06] <Philip`> (except SDL which makes it look like a joystick, so you have lots of button events and some pollable axes)
1479. # [23:06] <gsnedders> Anyone know if you have a transfer at EWR going from SFO to GLA whether you have to go through security again, because you're going on a transatlantic flight?
1480. # [23:07] <gwillen> typically you will not have to go through security a second time between a US-US hop and an international hop; but in the reverse direction (after an international hop, before boarding a domestic hop) you will
1481. # [23:08] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- RFC
1482. # [23:09] <gsnedders> gwillen: Yeah, I know there's always immigration going into the US
1483. # [23:09] * gsnedders wonders if it is reasonable to stay until the Sunday in CA, and arrive at 6:30am at GLA then go to uni that day…
1484. # [23:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's a bit annoying to have important information about XSLTProcessor commented out
1485. # [23:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: notes aren't normative, so surely they can mention stuff that doesn't normatively exist yet
1486. # [23:12] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
1487. # [23:12] <jamesr_> gsnedders: you go through security twice in some airports. for example when going international -> LAX -> domestic, in LAX you first go through immigration then go _outside the airport_ then go through domestic security before boarding the second flight
1488. # [23:12] <jamesr_> it's super stupid
1489. # [23:12] <jamesr_> dunno if any other US airports are designed that poorly
1490. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Newark is the interesting one.
1491. # [23:13] <jamesr_> newark is awful
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1495. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Well, it's the only airport with direct flights to Glasgow, though
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1498. # [23:20] <wpollock> Anyone there? I'd like to discuss charset for a moment.
1499. # [23:24] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
1500. # [23:24] <wpollock> I have never understood why, when the document declares a different charset than the web server sets in the document's header, why any web browser would choose to believe the web server and not the document author. Using .htaccess files is not a production web server best practice (large performance penalty for using), and modifying the httpd.conf file (or equivalent) for every document...
1501. # [23:25] <wpollock> ...added or updated seems ridiculous to me. The charset declared in the HTTP header should be a fall back default, used only if the document doesn't supply a valid one. The proper place for defining this, it seems to me, would be the DOCTYPE declaration. The the issue I have with charset is that you can only set one for an entire document. HTML 5 allows a charset attribute on tags that...
1502. # [23:25] <wpollock> ..."import" content. But many single documents have parts that are editable or come from multiple sources. (Think of forms, blogs and forums, and mash-ups produced by, say PHP, from multiple sources.) It may not be technically feasible, but charset should be an allowed attribute on EVERY block-level element. At the very least, on ARTICLE, DIV, SECTION, and the like.
1503. # [23:25] <key> ok, http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua RFC?
1504. # [23:25] <key> i need to make sure i understand html 5 semantic tags properly
1505. # [23:27] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
1506. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> wpollock: Easier solution: Use utf-8 everywhere.
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1510. # [23:38] <wpollock> I do use utf-8 everywhere, but some websites that host my pages aren't set to that, so I'm stuck. (Also, utf-8 is an English-centric encoding, it seems politically incorrect to insist on it everywhere!)
1511. # [23:38] <jcranmer> well, most metadata is written using US-ASCII
1512. # [23:39] <jcranmer> so UTF-8 is no worse than UTF-16 for most text, and is generally better
1513. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> wpollock: The argument that utf-8 is english-centric is pretty misinformed. For HTML pages, utf-8 is almost always better than other encodings that are more specialized for cjk content, due to the large amount of ascii text used in HTML source code.
1514. # [23:40] <key> ok, http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua RFC?
1515. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Second, political correctness takes a back seat to everyone in the world using a single well-defined encoding.
1516. # [23:41] <wpollock> I like utf-8. I single encoding everywhere makes life easy. If you can't do that, I wanted to know why the HTTP header should be believed over the document author? And I wanted to know why different parts of a web application couldn't have different encodings used?
1517. # [23:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: i'm happy to uncomment it out, all i need is a url for [XSLTP] -- doesn't have to be normative
1518. # [23:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: unfortunately i couldn't find anything like a canonical URL for it
1519. # [23:43] <jcranmer> UTF-8 may suck, but the only other really tenable encoding is UTF-16
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1521. # [23:43] <jcranmer> and UTF-16 causes as much problems as it solves, due to the plane issue
1522. # [23:45] <key> why do we never get to a point in tech where things just work and are perfect?
1523. # [23:45] <key> we have the benefit of digital systems
1524. # [23:45] <key> we don't have 'lossyness' of mechanical systems, yet they seem stronger
1525. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Why does utf-8 suck?
1526. # [23:48] <roc> UTF8 doesn't suck, it's the best of all worlds
1527. # [23:48] <roc> it's certainly strictly better than UTF16
1528. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Come now, that's an exaggeration. In the best world, utf-32's memory footprint would be irrelevant, and we could just use that.
1529. # [23:48] <othermaciej> UTF8 is not the best of all worlds
1530. # [23:49] <othermaciej> but UTF16 is the worst of all worlds
1531. # [23:49] <othermaciej> it has almost all the disadvantages of both UTF-8 and UTF-32
1532. # [23:49] <roc> ok, the best world is where everyone switches to English
1533. # [23:49] <wpollock> I don't think WHATWG or W3C can enforce a single encoding, A pity, but what can be done is to allow web authors the ability to declare the charset of documents or parts of documents. I'm not a member of whatwg (nor anyone important), but I feel strongly enough to spend time working on this if I can. Is there anyone whom I can make this suggestion to, that could move it forward? It...
1534. # [23:49] <wpollock> ...doesn't seem to me that anyone objects to the idea, only that (like myself) we wish for a Utopian world of a single universal encoding of text files. I don't think this work break backward compatibility (except in a good way, in that author declared charset would have more weight than HTTP declared charset). Nor should it be technically difficult to implement. It shouldn't cause any...
1535. # [23:49] <wpollock> ...security holes (Indeed, it may close some!) It may not be practical for other reasons, which is why I asked here.
1536. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Ok, you got me there, roc.
1537. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> wpollock: We can indirectly enforce a single encoding, by making it hard to use odd encodings.
1538. # [23:52] <key> wpollock: you make a good point. it wouldn't be in the philosophy of the web to demand a single encoding, rather a markup syntax to allow declaration of encoding is ideal
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1545. # Session Close: Wed Feb 09 00:00:01 2011

The end :)