/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 09 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
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  6. # [00:04] <wpollock> key: so what can be done about it?
  7. # [00:05] <key> i don't know if anything needs to be done about it. i like that there isn't a single enforced encoding
  8. # [00:05] <key> i like that there's, rather, an infrastructure allowing the use an declaration of an arbitrary set of encodings
  9. # [00:05] <key> to me that seems more open
  10. # [00:06] <Philip`> There are pages that declare a correct HTTP-level charset and an incorrect HTML-level charset, so you can't change the behaviour of browsers without causing some previously-working pages to stop working, so they won't make that change
  11. # [00:06] <wpollock> What I mean is, who do we go about changing the HTML standard, so the charset defined in the document overrides one set in the HTTP header?
  12. # [00:06] <Philip`> (regardless of whether it makes logical sense or not)
  13. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> wpollock: First, establish that what you propose is web-compatible. I expect this will be the difficult part.
  14. # [00:07] <wpollock> Okay, but to whom do I submit my proposals? I have no standing. (Maybe this is a lost cause and I should just give it up before I annoy everyone?)
  15. # [00:07] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@184-200-17-159.pools.spcsdns.net)
  16. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Send email to the WHATWG list.
  17. # [00:08] <key> wpollock: improvement suggestions are never annoying to sane people
  18. # [00:08] <key> only to nazis and goblins
  19. # [00:08] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  20. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Your standing is irrelevant, though the opinions of browser vendors do have somewhat more weight than the opinions of other people in practice (since they control what's in the browser).
  21. # [00:08] <key> i'd bypass whatwg and suggest it to a W3 or webstandards.org list
  22. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> But it's very likely that what you're proposing isn't web-compatible, so it can't be changed.
  23. # [00:09] <key> TabAtkins: why would it not be web compatible? i can see the http header being overridden by the document
  24. # [00:09] <key> hell, if anything it's more web compatible, considering how elements can carry a lang attribute to mix and match languages
  25. # [00:09] <key> same thing should exist for encodings, no?
  26. # [00:11] <Philip`> Users get very unhappy when pages that previously worked stop working, so the most important compatibility requirement is to avoid that happening
  27. # [00:11] <Philip`> It doesn't matter much if some previously incorrect pages start working, because users probably weren't using those pages anyway (given that they were broken)
  28. # [00:12] <key> what rsa key length is the common as of late?
  29. # [00:12] * Quits: mokush_ (~quassel@188.24.45.219) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  30. # [00:12] <key> is it still 2048 or larger?
  31. # [00:19] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-wtddcvsfjfrhgbgz)
  32. # [00:19] <webr3> we typically use 2048 or 4096
  33. # [00:20] <wpollock> Thanks, I will do that. Suggestions can be annoying if made by ignorant (if well-intentioned) people. I will make the two proposals, the second to allows charset attribute on any block level content. Thanks for your time!
  34. # [00:21] * Quits: wpollock (~chatzilla@169.139.222.5.hccfl.edu) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
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  36. # [00:28] <realityking> Mixing charsets inside one document sound like trouble to me.
  37. # [00:28] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  38. # [00:28] <key> really?
  39. # [00:28] <Philip`> Extremely
  40. # [00:29] <key> but wouldn't you need to? (read: UTN #22)
  41. # [00:29] <key> (http://unicode.org/notes/tn22/)
  42. # [00:29] <Philip`> Having the encoding indicators being encoded in their own encodings is always trouble
  43. # [00:29] <key> ah yea, true
  44. # [00:30] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  45. # [00:30] <Philip`> and having end-of-encoding indicators encoded in that encoding sounds worse
  46. # [00:30] <Philip`> and probably incompatible with efficient buffered decoder implementations
  47. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> What does UTN22 have to do with multiple encodings?
  48. # [00:32] * Philip` doesn't understand why people would look at the complexity of the current character encoding system and decide that the solution to its problems is to add more complexity :-)
  49. # [00:37] <karlcow> http://norman.walsh.name/2011/02/08/html-xml
  50. # [00:37] <key> omg i need to get high so bad
  51. # [00:37] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  52. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Okay, yeah, key's going back on ignore. Goddammit.
  53. # [00:37] <key> you're such a little bitch Tab
  54. # [00:38] <miketaylr> O_o
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  57. # [00:40] <AryehGregor> key, didn't you say you'd only flame us once a week? You have to wait till Monday.
  58. # [00:41] <key> AryehGregor: yea, and i am intent on keeping that agreement, but Tab flipped out for something totally innocuous
  59. # [00:41] <key> many people self medicate legally and productively with 'teh ganja
  60. # [00:42] <key> AryehGregor: can i get your input on: http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
  61. # [00:42] <key> (btw, maybe Tab was tempted by what i said, being a former closet stoner)
  62. # [00:43] <key> i'll be more sensitive to his addiction issues in the future
  63. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> What's the procedure for getting tests approved again?
  64. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Send an email to the list.
  65. # [00:45] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  66. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> That seems inefficient, and annoying to everyone on the list. At least it would be if we had a nontrivial number of tests being written.
  67. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> key, no real opinion.
  68. # [00:48] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  69. # [00:50] * TabAtkins reads the list archives.
  70. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Sigh, key, don't be stupid. Alcohol is roughly equivalent to marijuana. I like to drink. However, I don't announce that I totally need to get drunk, because it's stupid and of no interest to *anyone ever*. You were already on my shitlist for trolling, so hearing you make a stupid comment like that for no reason was adequate justification to perma-ignore you.
  71. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> (Note: you're still ignored. Respond if you want, I don't care.)
  72. # [00:52] <Hixie> man, you're not doing a good job of ignoring him :-P
  73. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> Hah, indeed.
  74. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> This is why I never /ignore people.
  75. # [00:52] <AryehGregor> Waste of effort.
  76. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Really? I find it useful. I still have mookid ignored, for example, which has been productive the last few times he's showed up.
  77. # [00:53] <hober> I don't /ignore because I think it's important for channel regulars / ops to see what new entrants would see, to help cut down on crap
  78. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> We don't have an op, though, and can't meaningfully reduce crap.
  79. # [00:55] <Hixie> actually we do
  80. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Oh right, we gained one a while ago.
  81. # [00:55] <Hixie> but it would be sad to kick people since we've gone 8 years without doing so
  82. # [00:55] <Hixie> even on the list i've only ever banned like 2 people
  83. # [00:55] <Hixie> and neither for more than 2 weeks
  84. # [00:57] <hober> yeah, I'm one of the ops, so just let me know when things get really out of hand :)
  85. # [00:59] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@184-200-17-159.pools.spcsdns.net) (Quit: miketaylr)
  86. # [01:01] <key> TabAtkins: i see your point, except you forget we're all humans here, not workbots. i come from old school IRC, where people actually had conversations and got to know each other
  87. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> We do that.
  88. # [01:02] <Hixie> speak for yourself
  89. # [01:02] <Hixie> i'm a bot
  90. # [01:02] <Hixie> just ask anyone
  91. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> Generally spam by channel regulars is tolerated if no one is trying to use the channel for anything serious at the time.
  92. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> I mean, I spent quite a while yesterday talking about group theory here.
  93. # [01:03] <Hixie> yeah dude
  94. # [01:03] <Hixie> why didn't we ban you
  95. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> But it's more annoying if someone says spammy stuff who doesn't have a substantial history of productive contributions.
  96. # [01:03] <key> you use the term spam too loosely there
  97. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> Deliberately.
  98. # [01:03] <key> you're incorrect in your use
  99. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> It's a valid colloquialism.
  100. # [01:05] <key> amongst sloppy noobs
  101. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> Okay, whatever.
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  105. # [01:09] <karlcow> Ice cream - 22 CAD - every flavours at http://iceshop.example.com/
  106. # [01:09] <paul_irish> the lack of ice cream at that URL is a supreme let-down, karl. :(
  107. # [01:09] <karlcow> ;)
  108. # [01:10] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  110. # [01:10] <karlcow> example.com, example.org, example.net are my favorite URI space. You can define anything on them, they will be always persistent as long as they are reserved domains
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  122. # [01:35] <bga_> http://demin.ws/norcpu/norcpu.html
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  132. # [01:51] <Hixie> http://parsetree.validator.nu/ and http://james.html5.org/parsetree.html are both gone :-(
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  349. # [05:38] <Sirisian> I have question. Is the Dom Level 3 Events implemented by any browser?
  350. # [05:40] <Sirisian> oh wait IE9 hmm
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  352. # [05:44] <karlcow> http://mir.aculo.us/2011/02/08/visualizing-webkits-hardware-acceleration/
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  360. # [06:12] <paul_irish> karlcow: http://peter.sh/experiments/chromium-command-line-switches/#show-composited-layer-borders
  361. # [06:13] <paul_irish> and --show-paint-rects .. both very interesting
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  374. # [07:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_the_Mozilla_JavaScript_interface_to_XSL_Transformations
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  408. # [09:29] * jgraham is scared of the idea that the DOM should be unicode clean
  409. # [09:29] <jgraham> Seems like a big perf. concern for no gain
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  411. # [09:30] <annevk> heh, I used to learn from books by David Flanagan and now he's using my work
  412. # [09:31] <annevk> jgraham, the DOM isn't "Unicode-clean"
  413. # [09:31] <jgraham> annevk: I know
  414. # [09:31] <jgraham> But Hixie wants it to be
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  417. # [09:32] <jgraham> "That JS uses UTF-16 is a design mistake, but not one that we need to propagate
  418. # [09:32] <jgraham> to the entire platform, nor one that we need to enforce on other languages
  419. # [09:32] <jgraham> should they ever be added to the platform. As such, the DOM should be
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  422. # [09:33] <othermaciej> jgraham: you got cut off there
  423. # [09:33] <othermaciej> what does "unicode clean" mean?
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  426. # [09:33] <annevk> it means no surrogates
  427. # [09:34] <jgraham> othermaciej: Did I? Should end "UTF-16."
  428. # [09:34] <annevk> basically
  429. # [09:34] <jgraham> What annevk said
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  431. # [09:34] <othermaciej> I don't even understand what that proposal means
  432. # [09:34] <othermaciej> jgraham: "UTF-16" doesn't seem like a logical ending to the paragraph you were quoting
  433. # [09:35] <jgraham> othermaciej: See Bug 11298
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  436. # [09:35] <othermaciej> the last bit I saw was "should they ever be added to the platform. As such, the DOM should be"
  437. # [09:35] <jgraham> "Unicode-clean, not UTF-16."
  438. # [09:36] <jgraham> It feels like sanitizing every DOMString is a huge amount of effort for no gain
  439. # [09:36] <annevk> othermaciej, basically Hixie thinks that for most "string" operations you should get characters out of the string (by replacing surrogates with U+FFFD) before doing things with the string
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  441. # [09:37] <othermaciej> I see, so other than the minor problems that JS string operations don't work like that and no other DOM operation works like that, neat idea
  442. # [09:38] <annevk> xhr.send() works like that, as you need to convert the data to UTF-8
  443. # [09:38] <annevk> but that's all I can remember
  444. # [09:38] <jgraham> Right, doing sanitization at the boundaries makes sense
  445. # [09:39] <jgraham> Doing it on every internal operation, not so much
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  450. # [09:58] <annevk> jgraham, you should get james.html5.org back up
  451. # [09:58] <jgraham> Yes, I should
  452. # [09:58] <annevk> it seems at least http://james.html5.org/parsetree.html was used
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  454. # [09:58] <jgraham> That needs to be updated, so I will do both
  455. # [10:00] <annevk> sweet
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  470. # [10:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think Hixie is wrong to want the DOM to be Unicode clean
  471. # [10:13] <hsivonen> we should stop him before specs end up with too much damage
  472. # [10:14] * hsivonen mumbles about the SVG API that supposedly counted Unicode characters. FAIL!
  473. # [10:14] <annevk> it's sort of similar to the i18n drive to canonicalize everything
  474. # [10:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't want to even think of that drive
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  476. # [10:15] <hsivonen> I want to get code written today instead of spending the whole day ranting about canonicalization
  477. # [10:15] <annevk> :)
  478. # [10:15] <othermaciej> let's do something more productive, like rename URLs again
  479. # [10:16] <othermaciej> I think it needs to be called a "URU" now
  480. # [10:16] <annevk> Universal Resource Ugh
  481. # [10:17] <annevk> URB Universal Resource Bikeshed
  482. # [10:17] <othermaciej> URR Universal Resource Reference
  483. # [10:18] <annevk> Obviously you are forgetting about the thousands of implementations that handle URBs.
  484. # [10:18] * Quits: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  485. # [10:18] <annevk> Your browser is worthless compared to my CMS.
  486. # [10:19] <othermaciej> well, URB and URR can be unified as Diversified Universal Resource Reference
  487. # [10:19] <othermaciej> as soon as the DURR spec is ready, we can start on converting all software
  488. # [10:20] <annevk> unified as diversified :)
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  490. # [10:20] <othermaciej> so what ever happened to public-html-xml?
  491. # [10:21] <othermaciej> did everyone suddenly lose interest?
  492. # [10:21] <annevk> no, the next meeting is next week
  493. # [10:21] <annevk> the idea is for Norm to write up a document
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  497. # [10:22] <annevk> it seems he wrote down a summary of some sort: http://norman.walsh.name/2011/02/08/html-xml
  498. # [10:22] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  499. # [10:23] <annevk> quite a good read actually and more or less matches what I think
  500. # [10:24] <annevk> not so much near the end though
  501. # [10:24] <othermaciej> he does rant a little about 42--
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  503. # [10:25] <annevk> I wonder when we stop comparing markup languages with programming languages
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  506. # [10:25] <annevk> It obviously fails when it comes to error handling...
  507. # [10:25] <othermaciej> who does that?
  508. # [10:26] <annevk> at the end of that post he writes a bit about Perl
  509. # [10:26] <annevk> and compares it with HTML
  510. # [10:26] <annevk> roc once wrote a great email about programming languages and markup
  511. # [10:27] <othermaciej> oh, right
  512. # [10:27] <annevk> I actually have it stored in my inbox, yay!
  513. # [10:27] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Dec/0132.html
  514. # [10:27] <othermaciej> imagine if, to use a perl module, you had to bind its namespace URI to a prefix
  515. # [10:28] <othermaciej> that's a good email
  516. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I knew from the subject that it must be a reply to Larry
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  519. # [10:40] <hsivonen> calling browser vendors "niche implementors" even as a rhetoric device is a pretty much in the center of how the divergence happened in the first place
  520. # [10:41] <hsivonen> because it's effectively saying that the browsable Web is just a niche thing compared to everything else
  521. # [10:41] <hsivonen> so it was OK for everything else to diverge from it
  522. # [10:41] <workmad3> hsivonen: complaints about SOAP?
  523. # [10:41] * Joins: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4)
  524. # [10:42] <hsivonen> workmad3: I think "everything else" in this case includes not only SOAP but also serious technical writing publication workflows and Semantic Web stuff (to the extent RDF/XML is involved)
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  526. # [10:50] <annevk> last night I had a thought of checking how much of the revised XML 1.0 (note that the version number stayed the same...) is actually implemented in browser and whether bug reports had been filed
  527. # [10:50] <annevk> my hypothesis was that it was not and that no reports were filed because nobody cares about XML in browsers
  528. # [10:51] <annevk> though I believe I did file a report for Opera which I believe has no duplicates (and no interest from anyone in fixing it)
  529. # [10:51] <jgraham> The whole allowed character range thing is crazy anyway :| (that's what changed, right?)
  530. # [10:51] <othermaciej> xml 1.0 version 5?
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  533. # [10:52] <annevk> othermaciej, "fifth edition"
  534. # [10:53] <othermaciej> wait, XML 1.0 5E uses the XML 1.1 character set?
  535. # [10:53] <othermaciej> what the heck was the point of 1.1 then?
  536. # [10:53] <annevk> it obsoleted XML 1.1 actually
  537. # [10:53] <annevk> because it also removed the strict version checking
  538. # [10:53] <annevk> but XML 1.1 is not rescinded still
  539. # [10:53] <annevk> probably because IBM would go mental
  540. # [10:54] <othermaciej> none of this makes any sense
  541. # [10:54] <jgraham> othermaciej: bingo, we have a winner
  542. # [10:54] <key> sup
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  544. # [10:54] <annevk> and then XML people like Michael Kay complain on the WHATWG blog about how standards are a contract
  545. # [10:55] <annevk> I do think this XML 1.0 change was for the better myself by the way
  546. # [10:55] <annevk> it's a gentle first step towards XML5
  547. # [10:55] <othermaciej> I love how they also made it an erratum to XML 1.0 4th edition
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  549. # [10:55] <othermaciej> well, it's a better idea than XML 1.1 as a permanent incompatible fork
  550. # [10:55] <othermaciej> would've made more sense to do it in the first place though
  551. # [10:55] <key> what new could xml possibly need?
  552. # [10:55] <key> isn't it bloated enough by now hehe?
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  554. # [11:03] <hsivonen> I thought 5th ed. didn't have the IBM thing from 1.1
  555. # [11:03] * hsivonen looks
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  557. # [11:04] <annevk> hsivonen, oh, it is incompatible in that sense
  558. # [11:04] <hsivonen> annevk: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-S
  559. # [11:04] <annevk> hsivonen, but when you see a 1.1 labeled document now you can process it per "fifth edition" rules
  560. # [11:04] <hsivonen> 5th ed. still has a sane definition of whitespace
  561. # [11:05] <hsivonen> no IBM mainframe gunk
  562. # [11:05] <key> ibm mainframe gunk?
  563. # [11:05] <hsivonen> key: for 1.1, they changed the definition of whitespace to include a character that allegedly was used in text on IBM mainframes
  564. # [11:06] <hsivonen> oh. wait. I'm looking at the worng thing in the spec
  565. # [11:06] <hsivonen> the magic happens in http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec-line-ends
  566. # [11:07] <annevk> hsivonen, the specific change I meant above with regards to replacing XML 1.1 is http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#NT-VersionNum
  567. # [11:07] <annevk> contrast with http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#NT-VersionNum
  568. # [11:07] <othermaciej> somehow, I feel like mainframes and XML are technologies meant for each other
  569. # [11:07] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, but IBM was wentioned
  570. # [11:08] <hsivonen> and http://www.w3.org/TR/xml11/#sec-line-ends has IBM written all over it
  571. # [11:08] <hsivonen> and that bit didn't make it to 5th ed. thank &Deity;!
  572. # [11:08] <othermaciej> entity not found
  573. # [11:09] <annevk> you are not well formed
  574. # [11:09] <annevk> please leave
  575. # [11:09] <hsivonen> http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201007/msg00089.html
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  577. # [11:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: The banks moving thier legacy systems sounds quite implausible.
  578. # [11:15] <jgraham> Well maybe banks would. Airlines wouldn't. But then neither would they use newfangled XML
  579. # [11:15] <annevk> always the pessimist
  580. # [11:15] <annevk> :)
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  584. # [11:22] <annevk> joy: http://www.ykombinator.com/
  585. # [11:22] <annevk> oh, and a background: http://wlppr.com/2011/02/09/html-5
  586. # [11:25] <key> haha
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  591. # [11:37] <annevk> cannot believe Norm actually thinks we want to create some barrier to entry
  592. # [11:38] <annevk> he wrote this on twitter: "I already suspect the established vendors are content to have the bar for new entrants set as high as possible."
  593. # [11:39] <jgraham> The bar for new entrants to the browser market is high because browsers are really complicated
  594. # [11:39] <annevk> it's like pretty much what we set out to fight against
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  596. # [11:39] <jgraham> But we are bringing the bar down by documenting the right thing to do
  597. # [11:39] <jgraham> But maybe this is the wrong sort of barrier?
  598. # [11:39] <annevk> having to reverse engineer other browsers and that barrier being really high is why we do the things we do
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  600. # [11:40] <jgraham> Possibly he doesn't mean browsers though
  601. # [11:40] <annevk> yeah he does
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  603. # [11:40] <annevk> this was in the context of HTML
  604. # [11:40] <annevk> and the WHATWG in particular
  605. # [11:41] <jgraham> If you believe in all the stuff about people embedding custom vocabularies in the markup, then he could be talking about barrier to entry of defining the language semantics
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  607. # [11:42] <jgraham> And be working on the assumption that special-purpose vocabularies will be processed by special purpose tools
  608. # [11:42] <jgraham> (of course it rather rests on the assumption that the additional data will be exposed via the DOM in just the same way as HTML
  609. # [11:43] <jgraham> rather than via e.g. microdata
  610. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Why is Kendall Clark using a photo of Noah Chomsky as his Twitter avatar?
  611. # [11:43] <annevk> jgraham, not given the context actually
  612. # [11:43] <hsivonen> annevk: yeah, that tweet from Norm is sad
  613. # [11:43] <jgraham> annevk: Pointer to context?
  614. # [11:43] <annevk> I replied btw
  615. # [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: me, too
  616. # [11:44] <hsivonen> twice only
  617. # [11:44] <annevk> http://twitter.com/ndw/status/35097590135525376
  618. # [11:44] <hsivonen> I saw you replied thrice
  619. # [11:44] <annevk> I could have said more :)
  620. # [11:45] <hsivonen> s/Noah/Noam/
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  623. # [11:47] <jgraham> Well I guess "existing vendors want to lock others out" is a easy position to take in the absence of evidence
  624. # [11:47] <roc> it's true that the barrier to new browsers is far too high
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  626. # [11:48] <annevk> definitely
  627. # [11:49] <annevk> and I suppose more could be done to make it lower, but saying we are content with it being high...
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  629. # [11:50] <annevk> competition is what keeps this thing alive
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  632. # [11:51] <annevk> otherwise you just get another IE6 disaster
  633. # [11:51] <annevk> or NN4
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  636. # [11:52] <roc> I can imagine alternative platforms to the Web that are simpler and therefore more amenable to new entrants
  637. # [11:52] <roc> I just can't see how to get there from here
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  665. # [12:58] <annevk> oh heh, the images are meant to load on http://www.fixtheweb.net/
  666. # [13:07] <AryehGregor> What?
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  668. # [13:08] <annevk> I clinked on that link and since images were taking over 10 seconds to load for me I wondered whether the site was making a point instead
  669. # [13:09] <annevk> but apparently it was just a little slow
  670. # [13:12] <annevk> seems mattur is doing some history project
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  673. # [13:22] <matjas> TabAtkins: What’s up with your feed? Looks like it’s down, or is it just me?
  674. # [13:24] <annevk> whoa
  675. # [13:24] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Feb/0188.html is the like the weakest objection ever
  676. # [13:24] <annevk> and also does not cite new arguments
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  681. # [13:44] <annevk> can't believe mattur only has 100 followers
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  683. # [13:45] <annevk> maybe the irony is hard to follow if you're not closely involved
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  711. # [16:01] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/QA/2011/02/last_year_i_published_several.html look at that, HTML5 is generating money for the W3C!
  712. # [16:02] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/w3c2011 -- W3C 2011: Select Priorities and Milestones
  713. # [16:03] <annevk> "W3C expects to advance HTML5 to Last Call in May 2011, including accessibility support for important new features." I wonder whether they argued long over that line
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  715. # [16:06] <annevk> "Community Groups" thing seems somewhat interesting
  716. # [16:07] <annevk> though I guess another way of viewing that is postponing changing the W3C Process
  717. # [16:07] <jgraham> I like the fact that HTML5 gets a LC date but CSS2.1 doesn't get a dtae for Rec.
  718. # [16:08] <jgraham> Also, it says the testsuite is important but doesn't really say what they will do about making it good
  719. # [16:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Date for REC depends upon a lot more, though
  720. # [16:09] <gsnedders> For LC only the WG needs to have consensus, a lot more needed for REC
  721. # [16:12] <jgraham> gsnedders: Given the makup of the two groups I would imagine it should be easier to get CSS2.1 to Rec. than HTML to agree on anything
  722. # [16:12] <jgraham> More pointless too, obviously
  723. # [16:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: Dunno how easy AC vote is going to be
  724. # [16:12] <jgraham> (well having a testsuite is good)
  725. # [16:13] <jgraham> (but it is good for its own sake not for having an implementation report)
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  745. # [17:24] <TabAtkins> matjas: It works for me now. Try again?
  746. # [17:25] <matjas> TabAtkins: yep, works now
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  804. # [19:51] <karlcow> MikeSmith: http://kyoto-client.org/
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  806. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> Kyoto Cabinet?
  807. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> not Tokyo Cabinet
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  809. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess it's the same developer and he end-of-lifed Tokyo a while back
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  824. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Okay, turns out WebKit's createContextualFragment() doesn't work too differently from Firefox, it was range.selectNode() that was buggy.
  825. # [20:13] <hsivonen> sigh. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264871
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  835. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> [[
  836. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> I now
  837. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> frequently see ISO-8859-1 content mis-identified as cyrillic (windows-1251)
  838. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> which didn't happen before
  839. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> ]]
  840. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
  841. # [20:37] <MikeSmith> that don't sound so good
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  843. # [20:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: context?
  844. # [20:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: most recent comment posted to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264871
  845. # [20:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: well, that's a good reason not to turn it on for everyone!
  846. # [20:40] <MikeSmith> I'd say
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  849. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I got a short validator patch for review if you have a few minutes
  850. # [20:42] <MikeSmith> https://gist.github.com/819101#file_check_meta_refresh.diff
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  852. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> and/or I can send you be e-mail
  853. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> this is for implementing a check for a change Hixie made recently
  854. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> https://gist.github.com/819101#file_check_meta_refresh.diff
  855. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> oops
  856. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5839&to=5840
  857. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> to disallow the URL part of meta refresh values from starting with an apostrophe or double-quote
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  859. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> and to also to report an error for any leading/trailing whitespace in the URL part
  860. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> because the IRI checker itself allows leading/trailing whitespace now
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  863. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, createContextualFragment() tests: <http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-parsing-and-serialization/test/createContextualFragment.html> Any further ideas? (Current spec, for reference: <http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#dom-range-createcontextualfragment>)
  864. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> The spec doesn't cover what happens if the Range's start isn't an Element.
  865. # [20:51] * Hixie looks
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  867. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> The spec is pretty short, so not much to test (given that I'm not testing the HTML parser proper beyond basic sanity checks).
  868. # [20:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry, about to go to a telecon and not on a dev machine, so I eed to look at you patch later
  869. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> (which Opera fails, but I've confirmed that's a legitimate createContextualFragment() failure, it's inserting <body>s and stuff)
  870. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: no problem
  871. # [20:52] <Hixie> we'll have to test the fragment part of the parser at some point, but maybe not as part of this
  872. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: will e-mail it to you
  873. # [20:53] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  874. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> (also not testing XML, since I was told we aren't sure what we want to happen for XML, although the spec does specify behavior)
  875. # [20:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  876. # [20:53] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
  877. # [20:54] <Hixie> AryehGregor: test to make sure the end point of the range has no effect
  878. # [20:54] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.24.254)
  879. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Oh, right.
  880. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> I thought of that but forgot to test it.
  881. # [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: other than that, looks pretty reasonable to me.
  882. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> I mean, I remembered to test it but then later forgot again before I did it.
  883. # [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'm not familiar enough with that api to really know where the bugs are, so i don't know what else to test :-)
  884. # [20:59] * Joins: justinhjohnson (~Adium@67-131-94-2.dia.static.qwest.net)
  885. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, now I'll go back to writing DOM Range tests.
  886. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> That way I should get more familiar with browser bugs and not try to do silly things like use selectNode() anymore.
  887. # [21:04] <Hixie> heh
  888. # [21:05] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-205-204.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  889. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> (all the WebKit tests for createContextualRange() were failing, turns out range.selectNode(document.documentElement) actually puts the start in the Document object instead of the root element . . .)
  890. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> Actually, there's no spec for that method.
  891. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> So I'll write that first.
  892. # [21:06] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
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  895. # [21:10] <Hixie> can anyone find any ARIA on http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/carousel/carousel-ariaplugin_source.html http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/tabview/tabview-ariaplugin_clean.html or http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/menuwaiaria_source.html ?
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  900. # [21:18] <Peter`> Hixie, carouselariaplugin.js seems to do that.
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  907. # [21:37] <Hixie> Peter`: any idea how to turn it on?
  908. # [21:37] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.239.237) (Quit: Martijnc)
  909. # [21:40] <Peter`> it's sniffing
  910. # [21:40] <Peter`> for Gecko >= 1.9 or IE >= 8
  911. # [21:42] <Peter`> seems to work in a firefox beta here
  912. # [21:48] <Hixie> ah, it avoids chrome
  913. # [21:48] <Hixie> man that's lame
  914. # [21:51] <Hixie> anyone here know anything about STUN/ICE/SDP?
  915. # [21:54] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  916. # [21:55] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/tmpvar/status/34356630250328064 "xml namespaces suck. In related news, only 1 test left in level2"
  917. # [21:55] * Joins: deane (~dean@119.224.91.235)
  918. # [21:55] <MikeSmith> from implementor of jsdom for Node
  919. # [21:55] <key> if i have a main menu, structured with a UL, and wrapped with a semantic NAV, this makes sense to me. but then how should i handle the sub menu which shows for the main menu section selected? should my main menu include a nested UL for each section? or should server side scripting only nest a UL for the current section?
  920. # [21:56] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua
  921. # [21:56] <key> version 2
  922. # [21:58] * Joins: nessy1 (~Adium@49.178.194.136)
  923. # [21:59] <deane> Hi Mike
  924. # [22:00] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@49.182.9.165) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  925. # [22:01] <MikeSmith> hey deane
  926. # [22:02] <key> http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- this is my question, version 2 (include all submenus whether they're active or not) or version 3 (have server only include submenu that is active)?
  927. # [22:02] <deane> sorry, haven't been online in ages
  928. # [22:02] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  932. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> deane: well, while you were away, somebody unfortunately summoned the Dark Lord Inglip and I reckon it's just a matter of time before he awakens to his full power and the world is destroyed
  933. # [22:07] <MikeSmith> in the mean time, there's an SVG f2f in Auckland soon
  934. # [22:07] <MikeSmith> Doug Schepers in attendance
  935. # [22:07] <MikeSmith> among others
  936. # [22:08] * Quits: nessy1 (~Adium@49.178.194.136) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  937. # [22:08] <MikeSmith> so good chance to meet some people while they're there
  938. # [22:10] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  939. # [22:10] <deane> MikeSmith: oh no, doesn't sound good mate :)
  940. # [22:11] <Philip`> http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/raw-file/tip/tests/submission/AryehGregor/base64.html
  941. # [22:11] <key> is your name really mike smith? or a pseudonym
  942. # [22:11] <Philip`> I guess it'd be nice if it made a mention that the apparent problem is in the HTTP header
  943. # [22:12] * Joins: ahume (~ahume@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  944. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Philip`, on the test list?
  945. # [22:16] <Philip`> ?
  946. # [22:17] <Philip`> I just mean it'd be nice if the validator's error message said where the problem was
  947. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  948. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> "it", not "you".
  949. # [22:17] <Philip`> Now that I think about it, I suppose it'd also be nice if the dvcs server didn't trigger that error
  950. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> I'm not even sure what the error means.
  951. # [22:18] * Joins: Maurice (~copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  952. # [22:19] <Philip`> It means it saw Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
  953. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> And what did it want?
  954. # [22:20] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113) ("Leaving")
  955. # [22:23] <Philip`> charset=UTF-8
  956. # [22:23] <Philip`> (I assume)
  957. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> So no quotes?
  958. # [22:24] * Quits: ahume (~ahume@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com) (Quit: ahume)
  959. # [22:24] <key> i'd use quotes
  960. # [22:24] <key> i always do
  961. # [22:25] * Joins: ahume (~ahume@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  962. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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  965. # [22:31] <key> what's with people not using 6 characters for hex colors? like the #444 ?
  966. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> It's shorter.
  967. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Equivalent to #444444. So why not use it, if you don't care much for precision?
  968. # [22:33] <key> who said i don't care much for precision? i just said i always use quotes. <shrug>
  969. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> That part was in reply to "what's with people not using 6 characters for hex colors? like the #444 ?"
  970. # [22:33] <key> oh
  971. # [22:33] <key> so why not just #4 ?
  972. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> With three characters you have less precision, but often it doesn't matter.
  973. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> That's not legal.
  974. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> It has to be three or six.
  975. # [22:33] <key> when did this happen? 3 being valid
  976. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> It was always true, as far as I know.
  977. # [22:34] <key> interesting
  978. # [22:34] <hsivonen> can someone explain to me how the failure mode seen in https://bug631751.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=509978 in Chrome arises?
  979. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Back to the early days of CSS.
  980. # [22:34] <key> i was in web dev a lot back in the 90s, never saw it that way
  981. # [22:34] <hsivonen> (the page is BOMless unlabeled UTF-16)
  982. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Yes, CSS has had both 3 and 6 hexit colors since the beginning. Most applicatinos that accept hex colors understand the 3-hexit version, too.
  983. # [22:35] <key> what's hexit mean?
  984. # [22:35] <hsivonen> the failure mode in Firefox 4 and Safari 5 at least makes sense to me
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  987. # [22:36] <hsivonen> is a heuristic encoding detector in Opera always enabled and not user-togglable?
  988. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> A hexit is a hexadecimal digit.
  989. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Similar to how "bit" is a binary digit.
  990. # [22:37] <hsivonen> can someone with IE tell me how https://bug631751.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=509978 works in IE? does IE detect UTF-16 or does it discard U+0000 ahead of tokenization?
  991. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> And "trit" for trinary digit. Not sure if there are any more common words for digits in particular bases.
  992. # [22:37] * hsivonen is without IE at this time of day
  993. # [22:38] <hsivonen> unlabeled BOMless UTF-16 is evil and makes me sad
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  995. # [22:39] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  996. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> s/unlabeled BOMless //
  997. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> s/sad/HULK ANGRY/
  998. # [22:40] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I was trying to be polite
  999. # [22:40] <key> whoa, i never knew bit was short for binary digit!
  1000. # [22:40] <key> in all this time, damn
  1001. # [22:40] <key> thanks TabAtkins!
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  1003. # [22:41] <key> i wonder why 7 bit bytes never took off
  1004. # [22:42] <key> what was it about 8 that made it the clear winner?
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  1006. # [22:43] <hsivonen> key: smallest power of 2 that's enough for characters in American text
  1007. # [22:44] <webr3> "power of 2" might be the overriding factor
  1008. # [22:44] <key> interesting to think how the origin of 8 bit byte is so arbitrary, then
  1009. # [22:44] * Quits: justinhjohnson (~Adium@67-131-94-2.dia.static.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1010. # [22:45] <key> why would you need to have a byte based on power of 2? eg, why not a 7 bit byte, 9, etc
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  1012. # [22:48] <webr3> because computer memory is built on binary logic, so requires powers of 2?
  1013. # [22:49] * webr3 apologies, was watching issue-129 cp1 get sent in to a black hole
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  1016. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> Why does Opera always fail so many tests compared to Gecko and WebKit? http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-range/test/Range-selectNode.html
  1017. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> This time it passes more tests than IE9 . . . one more test.
  1018. # [23:01] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Because you are testing something we aren't very good at, possibly
  1019. # [23:01] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  1020. # [23:01] <jgraham> Or maybe we tried to copy IE rather than conform to any spec
  1021. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> This is Ranges, IE didn't have them before IE9 AFAIK.
  1022. # [23:02] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/1998OctDec/0014.html is that a different David Singer from Apple's?
  1023. # [23:02] <jgraham> Oh, well presumably we just didn't have good QA of this feature then
  1024. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> Maybe you just have fewer compatibility reports than WebKit when copying Gecko stuff, so you wind up with a less correct implementation?
  1025. # [23:02] <jgraham> and it hasn't caused many site-compat issues
  1026. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> This is what specs and tests are for. :)
  1027. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> WebKit and Gecko presumably get compat reports faster than Opera does.
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  1031. # [23:04] <jgraham> afiak all the DOMRange stuff predates me woking at Opera, so I'm not in the best position to comment on it
  1032. # [23:05] <hsivonen> it's a shame that http://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/98JanAC/xml-req.html is confidential
  1033. # [23:05] * AryehGregor can now read it since he's a member via Google and not just a fake Invited Expert, yay
  1034. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, can it be declassified somehow?
  1035. # [23:06] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: I don't know
  1036. # [23:06] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@33.115.34.95.customer.cdi.no)
  1037. # [23:06] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: maybe there's a Process for that. maybe not
  1038. # [23:07] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  1039. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> there is not process for that, unfortunately
  1040. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> no afaik at least
  1041. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> that's the general downside of making anything Secret to begin with
  1042. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> as with governments or whatever else
  1043. # [23:12] <jgraham> Governments are actually often quite reasonable at declassifying stuff after a while
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  1046. # [23:12] <Philip`> webr3: Power-of-two isn't a requirement - there were early computers that had e.g. 36-bit words, which could be split into e.g. 6-bit or 9-bit bytes
  1047. # [23:13] * Joins: justinhjohnson (~Adium@67-131-94-2.dia.static.qwest.net)
  1048. # [23:14] <jgraham> hsivonen: It does seem to be a different David Singer, in case you didn't already find that out
  1049. # [23:15] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1050. # [23:15] * jgraham can't even find where you asked to see if someone answered
  1051. # [23:15] <jgraham> Philip`: Power-of-two not being a requirement doesn't mean its not an advantage
  1052. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I wouldn't say that the US government at least is quite reasonable about it
  1053. # [23:18] <annevk> hsivonen, if you remind me tomorrow I will finally email what I found out about our heuristics
  1054. # [23:18] <annevk> hsivonen, it's all in my inbox I just never went through it and posted a reply to your question
  1055. # [23:18] <annevk> (though it's not a complete answer I'm afraid)
  1056. # [23:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. thanks
  1057. # [23:20] <hsivonen> annevk: ok, I'll ping you tomorrow
  1058. # [23:21] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/360 claims that the IBM 7030 had variable sized bytes
  1059. # [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, btw, did I read correctly you want to give up on <device>?
  1060. # [23:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: With the Freedom of Information act and declassification of old documents it may be easier to get interesting historical information out of the UK government than W3C (as a non-Member). But I could be quite wrong
  1061. # [23:22] <annevk> Hixie, sounds reasonable to me; wondering if you will make the change shortly?
  1062. # [23:25] <jgraham> annevk: Where?
  1063. # [23:25] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  1064. # [23:26] <annevk> jgraham, IRC logs I guess
  1065. # [23:28] <Hixie> annevk: i'm waiting to find someone who can write a spec for the STUN/ICE/SDP glue before working on that spec
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  1076. # [23:35] <karlcow> jgraham: how old must be the documents?
  1077. # [23:36] <karlcow> (before being declassified)
  1078. # [23:36] * Joins: realityking_ (~rouven@g228130033.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  1079. # [23:37] <jgraham> karlcow: No idea. Maybe rather old
  1080. # [23:38] * jernoble_ is now known as jer|afk
  1081. # [23:38] <Philip`> jgraham: It appears to be similar to how modern architectures let you read a variable number of units from the address of the highest unit, which in this case is 1/2/4/8 bytes but in the 7080 is 1-8 bits
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  1084. # [23:39] <karlcow> in France it seems in between 50 years and 100 years but also with a right to destroy the document before that (if we can trust wikipedia)
  1085. # [23:41] <Philip`> (Addresses nowadays are 32/64 bits pointing at bytes; on the 7080 it seems to be 18-bit addresses pointing at 64-bit words, plus an extra 6 address bits to point to individual bits)
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  1088. # [23:46] <karlcow> http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2011/02/optimizing-your-site-for-tv-is-now.html
  1089. # [23:46] <Philip`> s/7080/7030/g
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  1091. # [23:46] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  1092. # [23:47] <jgraham> karlcow: 30 years seems to be somewhat normal though it has gine down to 20
  1093. # [23:47] <jgraham> And of course you can opt to keep things secret
  1094. # [23:48] <karlcow> yes
  1095. # [23:48] <karlcow> one I would love to see public is the minutes of the 1998 workshop
  1096. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> karlcow, I think in the US, you're allowed to request any information that doesn't fall under the exemptions, no matter how new.
  1097. # [23:48] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/htmlcall.html
  1098. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> Of course, lots of stuff falls under the exemptions.
  1099. # [23:49] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1100. # [23:50] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/
  1101. # [23:51] * Joins: othermaciej_ (~mjs@17.203.15.144)
  1102. # [23:57] <karlcow> hsivonen: david singer is a different one from IBM
  1103. # [23:57] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/future/papers/singer/im-164149.htm
  1104. # [23:58] <karlcow> # Some Requirements on the future of HTML
  1105. # [23:59] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-190-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  1106. # [23:59] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1107. # Session Close: Thu Feb 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)