/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-11 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Feb 11 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:03] <TabAtkins> alystair: Ah, I finally see the "bug" you're running into. My previous criticisms were incorrect.
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> Wait, hm, let me make sure I'm reading the spec right...
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> It looks like the difference in width/positioning between abspos normal elements and abspos replaced elements.
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# [00:06] <alystair> TabAtkins: you might hate me for this but I know nothing of specs yet, I'm just a lowly it/ux/designer consultant looking for employment at the moment... that's why my terminology is probably all wrong and confusing :)
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# [00:19] <karlcow> http://ai-depot.com/articles/the-easy-way-to-extract-useful-text-from-arbitrary-html/
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# [00:25] <TabAtkins> alystair: Okay, found the problem. Yes, it's a bug. When we're calculating the size of an abspos element (or fixpos, same thing) where 'width' and one of the edges is 'auto', you're supposed to set the 'width' to the shrink-to-fit width, then solve for the other side.
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> What this *should* do is set <div.bug>'s 'left' property to a negative value. However, in ltr we don't let the 'left' calculate to less than 0.
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Similarly, if you swap the "right:0" to "left:0", and then set dir=rtl on <html>, the same error pops up.
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> If "left" is specified in ltr, or "right" is specified in rtl, it works correctly.
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# [00:30] <alystair> TabAtkins: wow you're a beast
# [00:32] <gsnedders> Not a beauty? Blast.
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> This might be a reasoanble behavior, though - it prevents you from having data (in this case, part of the image) in an area you can't scroll to, since you can't scroll to any position less than 0 in ltr, and similarly in rtl.
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I DISAGREE.
# [00:32] * TabAtkins preens.
# [00:32] <zewt> nobody says they're mutually exclusive; perhaps he's a beautiful beast
# [00:33] <TabAtkins> Lemme see if I can reproduce it with just text.
# [00:33] <alystair> I think it's simply lazy programming, where all image engines return original image width instead of resized width...
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# [00:34] <zewt> i think css layout is more complicated than that :)
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# [00:34] * alystair knows nothing of the behind-the-scenes magic
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# [00:39] <TabAtkins> The hell? I just broke X by doing alert(x.toDataURL()).
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> Or rather, I broke Compiz I think.
# [00:40] <TabAtkins> (x was a 500x500 canvas painted pure blue)
# [00:40] <zewt> heh i've exploded things frequently doing that sort of thing
# [00:40] <TabAtkins> I just wanted a large square image to test things with. ;_;
# [00:41] <zewt> which is why I generally don't like toDataURL at all--object URLs are much saner...
# [00:41] <TabAtkins> And it was faster to generate a data url via canvas typed in as a data url than it was to open GIMP.
# [00:41] * TabAtkins probably does too much in data: urls these days.
# [00:41] <alystair> Canvas has such great flexibility, but at the same time it could be used for pure evil :/
# [00:42] <TabAtkins> This has nothing to do with canvas. I think alerting a large unbreakable string is what caused the problem.
# [00:42] <Hixie> surely 500x500 pure blue should compress really well
# [00:42] <alystair> Hixie: maybe you should try #f0f instead? maybe it likes magenta better :p
# [00:43] <zewt> that's another thing about data urls--often you want uncompressed data (if you're taking data from a canvas and dropping it in an img, you don't want PNG mixed in) ... which seems to suggest using BMP, which itself is unpleasant
# [00:44] <zewt> i guess technically you can make uncompressed PNGs
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# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The resultant data url is nearly 3k.
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Which seems pretty heavyweight for a pure blue png.
# [00:46] <Hixie> that doesn't seem optimal, yeah
# [00:47] <zewt> that sounds pretty normal
# [00:47] <TabAtkins> Actually, it's pure black. I guess I did something wrong. Anyway, it's 500x500 and a solid color.
# [00:47] <zewt> png isn't good at getting *really* small like, say, gifs
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> Hm. Running it through an optimizer only gets me down to 2k.
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# [00:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, here we go. Running it through a better optimizer dropped the entire file to 125 bytes.
# [00:50] <TabAtkins> That's more like it.
# [00:50] <zewt> extra metadata chunks?
# [00:50] <TabAtkins> I doubt canvas adds too much metadata.
# [00:50] <zewt> i wouldn't expect it to, but i'm not sure why else it would be that different
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> We don't seem to have a bug for this. I'll add one.
# [00:53] <zewt> for the alert problem?
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> No, for the horrible dataurl generation.
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> I need to test the alert problem more.
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# [00:54] <Philip`> I assume browsers are unlikely to automatically palettise PNGs, which is what you need to get it to 125 bytes
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# [00:55] <roc> I write canvas code to generate PNGs too
# [00:55] <zewt> heh all of the png spec liniks on libpng.org are broken
# [00:55] <Yuhong> IE9 RC was released today, which finally supports XHTML.
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# [00:56] <Philip`> Strangely the PLTE chunk supports 1-entry palettes but the image can't be 0-bit, only 1-bit :-(
# [00:56] <Yuhong> The sad thing about it is that it will be likely about 5 years after IE9 releases for IE8 to die.
# [00:56] <Yuhong> And today it is already 11 years after the release of XHTML 1.0!
# [00:56] <zewt> seems like pngcrush won't automatically trim PLTE chunks
# [00:57] <Rik`> Yuhong: RC doesn't mean general availability for everyone
# [00:57] <Rik`> we still need to wait for a true release
# [00:57] <Yuhong> Yes.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> So the latest IE blog post yet again quotes pass figures on MS's own tests without counting anyone else's and without making this fact clear.
# [00:58] <TabAtkins> Interestingly, there's a significant size difference between a 500x500 transparent image and a 500x500 black image.
# [00:59] <TabAtkins> The former is about half the size.
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> Yuhong, I think IE8 will die a lot faster than IE6 did.
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> Because of IE9's compatibility mode.
# [01:00] <TabAtkins> I assume that every pixel being 0,0,0,0 instead of 0,0,0,255 allows better compression.
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> IE7 died more quickly than IE6, right?
# [01:01] <Yuhong> But then there is the issue of the lack of XP support.
# [01:01] <zewt> TabAtkins: that's what I was thinking, but I'd expect the difference to be tiny
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> XP is no longer supported by Microsoft as of when?
# [01:01] <zewt> ie9 doesn't run in XP, which is aggrevating; I have to run win7 in a VM to test with it
# [01:01] <TabAtkins> Let's test by filling it with a color that's different in every component.
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# [01:01] <Yuhong> And BTW, XP and IE6 end support together in the MS support lifecycle.
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# [01:01] <zewt> of course since you can't really run multiple versions of IE on one system I need VMs for each version anyway
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> Ah, IE9 finally supports WebM if the codec is present.
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> With the RC.
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> Or so the blog post says.
# [01:02] <Yuhong> And yes, I mentioned XHTML because of yesterday's discussion.
# [01:02] <zewt> TabAtkins: fyi, from PS, 500x500 transparent is 4340 bytes, black is 3840
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> That's just crazy talk.
# [01:03] <zewt> er wait, I saved as paletted
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> So, two-factor authentication for Google Accounts.
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> Sounds scary.
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> What if you lose your cell phone?
# [01:04] <TabAtkins> And, nope, filling it with #05a (0055aaff, in full) is identical.
# [01:04] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: They give you a set of backup codes.
# [01:04] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: It's your responsibility to keep track of them.
# [01:04] <zewt> heh, saving as non-paletted, transparent is 4409 bytes, black is 4408
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> Oh, so you get some codes that permanently work, so you can write them down in a bunch of secret places and if you lose your phone you can disable two-factor authentication?
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> Awesome.
# [01:05] * AryehGregor signs up
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> And I'm sure there's some recovery option.
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> There are a few things that don't work well with 2-factor yet, but I'm pretty happy with it all-told.
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> (Mainly, profile sync on ChromeOS after you've already set up your account.)
# [01:06] <TabAtkins> Bookmark the application-specific password page. You'll need it.
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# [01:06] <TabAtkins> And it's hard to find otherwise.
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# [01:06] <AryehGregor> "Application-specific password page"?
# [01:07] <TabAtkins> There should be links somewhere in the information about setting it up.
# [01:07] * AryehGregor doesn't see the option yet, will have to wait
# [01:07] <TabAtkins> Most external programs don't understand 2-factor, so you instead make an application-specific password for them which is very long.
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# [01:10] <AryehGregor> And it only lets them have limited access, or what?
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# [01:10] <TabAtkins> No, they get normal access. It's just a stronger protection than your normal google password, roughly equivalent to what 2-factor offers.
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# [01:11] <TabAtkins> And, once they give you the password, they NEVER SHOW IT TO YOU AGAIN. You copy-paste, and then it's down the memory hole forever.
# [01:11] <Hixie> trying to understand the relationship between canvas shadows and the globalCompositeOperator is giving me a headache
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# [01:13] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, but that implies that if the application remembers the login info, an attacker who compromises the machine where the application is gets access just like if I didn't use two-factor auth, right?
# [01:13] <TabAtkins> Yes. So bug the app-maker to understand 2-factor.
# [01:15] <Philip`> Hixie: What's confusing about it? :-)
# [01:15] <TabAtkins> You're still more secure than you were before (long random password that's unique to that specific app, so leaking it doesn't compromise anything else), just not as much as you would be if the app knew 2-factor properly.
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# [01:16] <Hixie> Philip`: http://goo.gl/0FwR8
# [01:16] <Hixie> Philip`: why do opera and gecko differ on the rendering at the top left?
# [01:16] <TabAtkins> Okay, restarted X. Let's see if we can reproduce this alert problem.
# [01:17] <Philip`> That page makes my CPU cry
# [01:20] <zewt> it acts as coolant
# [01:20] <TabAtkins> Okay, yeah, long unbreakable strings passed to alert() break compiz. Hrm.
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# [01:22] <TabAtkins> Shit. I didn't understand the consequences of "open the last tabs" option when I planned to crash my browser with a tab.
# [01:22] <zewt> heh
# [01:22] <zewt> i've done that before, after hosing firefox with an alert() cycle
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# [01:23] <TabAtkins> Let's not do that again.
# [01:24] <zewt> i try to remember to start a separate firefox process when i'm aiming to crash it, heh
# [01:25] <AryehGregor> Doesn't it give you the option of not reopening the tabs if it crashes a couple of times on start?
# [01:25] <zewt> you can deselect individual tabs ... but you have to remember to do that
# [01:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: It wasn't a startup crash, it was a windowing-system crash after the browser had successfully started and then opened a page.
# [01:26] <TabAtkins> Anyway, got it fixed. The browser itself was still fine, just the window was dead. Hit ctrl+n, navigated to google, closed the broken page from the taskbar.
# [01:28] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [01:29] <zewt> it should still give the "crashed, close tabs?" dialog after a crash before restarting the session, though
# [01:29] <TabAtkins> As far as Chrome was concerned, there was no crash.
# [01:29] <zewt> oh, yeah. i was thinking FF
# [01:30] <zewt> which remembers if it was shut down unexpectedly
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# [01:44] <Philip`> Hixie: http://goo.gl/aOqhq - Opera seems to be clipping the stroke to the canvas before computing its shadow, so the top of the shadow (from the clipped-out part of the stroke off the top) is missing
# [01:44] <Philip`> but only in certain compositing modes
# [01:44] <Hixie> yeah, i was about to say http://goo.gl/ee6Lc
# [01:45] <Hixie> how odd
# [01:45] <Hixie> opera people, see bug in http://goo.gl/aOqhq
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# [01:47] <Philip`> I think it's source-{in,out}, destination-{in,out,over,atop}, but not any other, as far as I can tell
# [01:48] <Philip`> I don't know what's common between those modes
# [01:49] <Hixie> i don't understand why you'd have mode-specific shadow rendering
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# [01:52] <Philip`> It only seems to happen at the edges of the canvas, not the clipping region
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# [01:56] <Hixie> Philip`: the bug is an unsurprising bug, what's surprising is that it only happens in certain modes
# [01:57] <Philip`> Mode-specific optimisations don't seem unlikely
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# [02:10] <zewt> heh transparent black brings back unhappy memories
# [02:11] <zewt> i've had to write code to heuristically guess the "outline" color of an image and set transparent pixels to that color, to be able to rescale images without causing outlines from transparent pixel colors blending in with visible ones ... lots of fun
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# [02:24] <alystair> zewt you're using win XP but W7 in VM?
# [02:24] <zewt> yes
# [02:24] <zewt> well, xp64
# [02:24] <alystair> I'd be interested in knowing the rationality behind that, got some legacy apps that you just can't get rid of?
# [02:24] <zewt> i like XP's UI; i hate Win7's UI
# [02:25] <zewt> i'm sure i'll be forced into win7 eventually; but I'll delay it as long as I can, heh
# [02:29] <alystair> I had the same rationality earlier, but I don't mind the new aero
# [02:29] <alystair> if you're really hellbent I bet there's an explorer.exe replacement with your name on it
# [02:30] <alystair> man this has been the most distracting room I've been in, in ages. I need to leave freenode so I can get my portfolio up to apply to ze Google and a few other places :)
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# [02:43] <zewt> aero is silly, but it's the functional things I can't stand, like the menu interface I've been using for 15 years suddenly being thrown in the trash
# [02:44] <zewt> heh now i'm thinking about what would happen if blob.slice()'s clamping was also done asynchronously ... ick
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# [02:50] <erlehmann> zewt, why didn't you just scale in color-corrected hypercone space?
# [02:50] <erlehmann> (what is it called again?)
# [02:50] <erlehmann> premultiplied!
# [02:51] <TabAtkins> I like hypercone better. Mainly because then I can say "hypercube" rather than the clunky "non-premultiplied".
# [02:51] <zewt> well they weren't premultiplied images; they were opengl textures
# [02:52] <erlehmann> fun fact: windows xp is older than my sister, who is 10. a few month ago she asked me how to set up a virtual pc — not because it is terribly interesting, but because they have to use windows xp at school and she wants to know the quirks of the system.
# [02:52] <zewt> (i've rarely dealt with premultiplied data, so I'm not even entirely sure what it's for)
# [02:53] <erlehmann> zewt, premultiplied is solving all your “transparent black” problems.
# [02:53] <zewt> (though i suspect a slight memory jog and I'd recall)
# [02:53] <TabAtkins> zewt: hypercone rgba has "better" behavior when transitioning to/from transparent black.
# [02:53] <erlehmann> “more intuitive” as in “expected”.
# [02:54] <erlehmann> zewt, http://www.gimp.org/docs/plug-in/appendix-alpha.html
# [02:55] <erlehmann> even most graphics people i know cannot into premultiplied space
# [02:55] <TabAtkins> "cannot into"?
# [02:55] <zewt> yeah, but it's unusual to use that with opengl (though I suspect possible, using a different blend function)
# [02:55] <zewt> been a couple years since I've dealt with that layer in depth so I'm rusty
# [02:57] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, chanspeak. i am closely affiliated with an imageboard i shall not name. “X cannot into” is short for “X is not able to understand” or, depending on circumstances “X is not able to correctly apply”
# [02:57] <erlehmann> it is short and most people understand. so i use it. slang!
# [02:57] <TabAtkins> use "grok" instead of "into". That makes sense outside of the chans, and has the same letters.
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# [02:58] <zewt> people have brought 4chanisms into work skype channels; it makes me want to bonk people. heh
# [02:58] <erlehmann> zewt, many graphics tools use premultiplied transitions. i would be surprised if there isn't some library for that stuff regarding opengl.
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# [02:59] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i understand completely.
# [02:59] <zewt> using it with an existing opengl engine is probably difficult
# [02:59] <zewt> but if you engineer with it in mind from the beginning, yeah.
# [03:00] <zewt> erlehmann: you into
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# [03:00] <zewt> heh
# [03:01] <erlehmann> zewt, me into what?
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# [03:01] <erlehmann> zewt, can't you just write a shader that premultiplies? i am not a clever guy.
# [03:02] <zewt> the scaling happens before the textures are loaded
# [03:02] <zewt> (eg. if a texture is too big for the hardware's max texture size, or if it's been flagged as scale-to-power-of-2 to allow repeating)
# [03:03] <erlehmann> zewt, so how do you scale?
# [03:03] <zewt> straightforward image resampling
# [03:05] <erlehmann> and you cannot modify it to add a multiply step?
# [03:05] <zewt> if you really care, https://svn.stepmania.com/svn/trunk/stepmania/src/RageSurfaceUtils.cpp RageSurfaceUtils::FixHiddenAlpha
# [03:05] <zewt> you can't premultiply, rescale and then un-premultiply; premultiplication is lossy
# [03:06] <TabAtkins> Pfft. Only if you're using limited-precision numbers.
# [03:06] <zewt> oh yeah, that affects gpu scaling as well, not just software scaling before loading
# [03:06] <zewt> actually now that i remember, that's the more common case
# [03:07] <TabAtkins> You don't even need computable reals - you could make it lossless by using rationals.
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# [03:09] <zewt> this script execution thread sure has people excited
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# [03:12] <erlehmann> i wonder why
# [03:13] <erlehmann> it is so full on conjecturing.
# [03:13] <erlehmann> of
# [03:13] <TabAtkins> into
# [03:13] <zewt> through
# [03:14] <erlehmann> well played, TabAtkins
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# [03:18] <zewt> TabAtkins: actually, wouldn't rationals result in n/infinity when A = 0? might make accelerated blending a challenge...
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# [03:19] <zewt> (if there's an nvidia engineer lurking in here, he probably just went into convultions)
# [03:20] <erlehmann> The WHATWG is committed to the well being of all participants. Cake and grief counseling will be available at the conclusion of the Javascript parsing thread.
# [03:20] <zewt> that may, however, be separated from the script download
# [03:20] <GarethAdams|Home> the thread is a lie
# [03:21] <erlehmann> (The WHATWG once again reminds you that Parser Hell is a real place where your script will be sent at the first sign of defiance.)
# [03:23] <erlehmann> CSSquirrel probably has made Portal jokes as soon as chrome came out.
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# [03:24] <zewt> i've never understood why a browser whose most obvious UI design principle is having as little chrome as possible is named "chrome"
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# [03:29] <webr3> ium
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# [03:34] <erlehmann> ha!
# [03:34] <erlehmann> now CAPS ARE USED in the javascript thread.
# [03:34] <zewt> yeah I'm giving up on that thread for a while heh
# [03:35] <erlehmann> “That something *can* be abused is not proof it will be”
# [03:35] <erlehmann> there is the error.
# [03:36] <jamesr_> i'm going to prefetch but not read that thread
# [03:36] <zewt> most anything can be abused. heh
# [03:36] <erlehmann> zewt, i have seen perl code. and every single time i show it to perl guys, they say “just don't use it that way”
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# [03:36] <zewt> well, the only way to use perl is to abuse it
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# [03:37] <erlehmann> wakaba_1, are you related to imageboard software?
# [03:38] <erlehmann> if so, i'd love to hear what a new era of html5 imageboards might bring!
# [03:38] <wakaba_1> erlehmann: no
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# [03:38] <erlehmann> oh
# [03:38] <erlehmann> :/
# [03:40] <paul_irish> Hixie: regarding http://html5.org/r/5873 should it also indicate how this behavior should change if CORS is invoked?
# [03:40] <paul_irish> or does mention of 'origin' generally imply that.
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# [05:19] <Hixie> paul_irish: can CORS be used?
# [05:20] <paul_irish> technically, no. but from the webkit engineers i've talked to, they indicate if a cross-origin image is served with CORS, then for example, it shouldnt throw exceptions within getImageData
# [05:20] <paul_irish> just.. no one's gotten around to doing that yet.
# [05:21] <Hixie> when we spec how CORS works in those situations, i'll update the spec
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# [05:21] <paul_irish> cool.
# [05:23] <zewt> been blocked by that before ... tried playing with canvas to allow applying a gamma curve to an image, but since images weren't same-origin i couldn't do much of anything with canvas
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# [06:17] <Sirisian> Updated: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557#c12
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# [08:00] <alystair> and now for some terrible abuse of html http://finalboss.org/h/
# [08:03] <Sirisian> pretty
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# [10:26] <connrs> untitled folder
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# [10:56] <jgraham> Sigh.
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# [12:13] <annevk> btw, I don't want Window in DOM Core
# [12:15] <Ms2ger> Maybe you should put that in the spec ;)
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# [12:55] <annevk> I think DOM Core should define Events (just the infrastructure), Nodes, probably Event Loops and Mutation Events, and maybe event handlers
# [12:56] <jgraham> Mmm mutation events
# [12:58] <Ms2ger> Mmm implementation reports
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# [12:59] <annevk> Hmm ice cream
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# [13:07] <pluma> annevk: What's with the recent blogpost re XML? I don't quite gather what happened prior to that.
# [13:10] <annevk> pluma, I got frustrated with the continued bashing from the XML community
# [13:11] <pluma> annevk: I wasn't aware of that at all. I thought XML5 was coming along nicely?
# [13:11] <annevk> pluma, e.g. http://twitter.com/#!/ndw/status/35097590135525376
# [13:11] <annevk> pluma, oh, it seems that has some traction for sure
# [13:12] <annevk> pluma, but meanwhile what we try to do with HTML gets us mostly flames and roadblocks
# [13:12] <pluma> annevk: Well, some resistance is to be expected.
# [13:12] <pluma> annevk: Don't give up. I like the direction the HTML/WebApp specs are taking.
# [13:12] <annevk> pluma, it is a bit lame of course to complain about unfairness on your blog, but I felt I could do it once
# [13:12] <pluma> Sure. You're entitled ;)
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# [13:16] <annevk> http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/02/11/open-letter-from-ceo-stephen-elop-nokia-and-ceo-steve-ballmer-microsoft/?mobile -- two failing giants team up
# [13:16] <annevk> I wonder what that will do
# [13:17] <annevk> wow that video is lame
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# [13:25] <erlehmann> annevk, its a shame. the n900 had awesome stuff eons before android came along and nokia failed it.
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# [13:36] <pluma> Ballmer's voice has seen better days.
# [13:38] <wilhelm> The N900 rocks, but it seems this will be my last Nokia phone. |c:
# [13:39] <pluma> What OS has Nokia been using before?
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# [13:40] <wilhelm> Several.
# [13:45] <annevk> pluma, is this going to be the moment where you'll become more actively involved in standards btw?
# [13:46] <annevk> pluma, assuming I guessed correctly which website you are associated with I've always hoped that to be the case :)
# [13:46] <pluma> Erm... what would that be then? I think you're mistaking me for somebody else.
# [13:47] <annevk> http://plasmasturm.org/
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# [13:47] <pluma> That's interesting, but not me.
# [13:48] <annevk> ah, too bad
# [13:48] <pluma> I get that a lot.
# [13:48] <pluma> Sorry for being just me ;)
# [13:48] <annevk> you're most welcome for just being you :)
# [13:50] <pluma> Nah, I'm just a regular web dev. My name is in the HTML acknowledgments and that's the biggest achievment I can show.
# [13:50] <annevk> hmm
# [13:50] <annevk> pluma, that's how most people start out ;)
# [13:51] <annevk> the hmm was for DOM Events btw... which does not specify what multiple calls to addEventListener does and which listener will be removed if you then do removeEventListener
# [13:51] <pluma> At least it's something I can put in my resume. Hixie helped me figure out I contributed _something_ to Web Forms 2. Still not sure of what it was exactly, but apparently I was noticed.
# [13:52] <annevk> heh
# [13:52] <annevk> I started there too
# [13:52] <pluma> Sounds like addEventListener/removeEventListener expects there to be exactly one listener, as was the norm back in the days.
# [13:52] <annevk> type=uri was my proposal, until I realized it should really be type=url
# [13:53] <pluma> No love for urns?
# [13:53] <annevk> love for consistency with terms we use elsewhere
# [13:53] <annevk> CSS uses url()
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# [13:55] <pluma> true
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# [13:56] <jgraham> Probably most people don't start out with their name in the spec as their first achievement
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# [13:57] <annevk> well look at that
# [13:58] <annevk> the way I defined it for http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#the-mediaquerylist-interface matches how DOM Events actually work
# [13:58] <annevk> cannot insert duplicate event listeners
# [13:58] <annevk> I have a faint recollection I reverse engineered it back then to make sure it was consistent
# [13:58] <pluma> Most of my involvement is historical at best anyway. I tend to the forum on occasion and follow the whatwg mailing list, but my activity peaked somewhere around six years ago.
# [14:00] <annevk> well, if you ever want to get "serious" about this, it seems to be rather easy to get employed doing something with standards these days
# [14:00] <pluma> These days I mostly just shout at people who do it wrong, tbh.
# [14:00] <Ms2ger> annevk:
# [14:00] <Ms2ger> readonly attribute DOMString matches;
# [14:00] <annevk> it's like "1) passion 2) ... 3) job"
# [14:01] <Ms2ger> The matches must return true...
# [14:01] <zewt> the best pattern, when you manage to stumble upon "..." :P
# [14:01] <Ms2ger> Sounds like a boolean to me
# [14:01] <annevk> Ms2ger, nobody reads my specs :)
# [14:01] <pluma> Well, yeah, I call it "evangelism" to make it sound more legit. But most of what I do is follow standards and point out when people don't know what they're doing.
# [14:01] <Ms2ger> annevk, yeah, I'm weird like that ;)
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# [14:03] <pluma> I already supported web standards before the WaSP became a bunch of guys shouting at kids to keep off their lawn. Actually, the WaSP didn't even exist back then.
# [14:04] <pluma> But, yes. I prefer following standards over writing them, so I guess I'll stick with what I do best.
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# [14:22] <annevk> oh look
# [14:22] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#events
# [14:22] <annevk> Ms2ger ran an update
# [14:24] <annevk> rewriting a spec is a good way of discovering holes in the old copy
# [14:25] <annevk> I guess that's why a lot of people want a rewrite of CSS
# [14:25] <Ms2ger> No, that's because CSS is unreadable
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# [14:34] <pluma> I can't wait for the "let's implement Sass in the browser and pretend it's still CSS" stuff scheduled for later this year. I'm seriously looking forward to that.
# [14:34] <annevk> Sass?
# [14:34] <pluma> sass-lang.com
# [14:35] <Ms2ger> Tab's stuff
# [14:35] <pluma> i.e. native variables and nesting in CSS.
# [14:35] <pluma> If that's a prank, I'm going to kill whoever started it, though.
# [14:36] <Ms2ger> The WG has been working on variables for a long time, but we've never had a draft browsers agreed to implement
# [14:38] <pluma> Well, it'd be blatantly backwards-incompatible, but if it sees the light of day before IE9 is out, it might have a chance.
# [14:38] <annevk> it's not going in IE9
# [14:39] <pluma> Damn.
# [14:39] <Ms2ger> IE9 is going out Real Soon Now, no?
# [14:39] <pluma> Here's to another ten years of wishing for IE to die, then. MS made it pretty clear they think not forcing upgrades is a good thing.
# [14:45] <annevk> geez
# [14:45] <annevk> Event.timeStamp is useful...
# [14:45] <jgraham> </sarcasm>?
# [14:45] * Ms2ger takes a deep breath and processes it like any other end tag below
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# [15:11] <annevk> if you hear something about the Microdata study again: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20000319.html
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# [15:32] <Ms2ger> annevk, I'm not sure "must be useless" is a testable requirement
# [15:34] <annevk> I meant to defer it to later
# [15:36] <annevk> I have no idea how to define that though
# [15:37] <annevk> in Gecko it is some weird number, in Chrome it resembles a timestamp and in Opera it is always 0
# [15:38] <Ms2ger> Could we drop it? :)
# [15:39] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/172
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# [15:41] <Ms2ger> Fun
# [15:41] <annevk> the WHATWG definition of Fun, yes
# [15:41] <annevk> :p
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# [15:59] <Philip`> When you do markup like http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html#example won't the browser download and run the Flash thing (and then just not render it) even when it supports the native video?
# [16:00] <annevk> we made modifications to plugin loading to prevent that
# [16:00] <annevk> iirc
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# [16:01] <Philip`> Ah, yes - "If the element has an ancestor media element, ..."
# [16:01] <Philip`> That's handy
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# [16:35] <AryehGregor> Hixie, could I spend some time cleaning up and submitting my reflection tests to the HTMLWG test repo? Seems kind of sad to just have them sitting there, particularly since the only feature we seem to have really good official tests for is <canvas>.
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# [16:35] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
# [16:42] * karlcow points hsivonen to http://www.w3.org/mid/E9907E40-F38D-4B1E-8432-2B6A7AC9F191@mnot.net
# [16:43] <AryehGregor> It's pretty clear MS is aiming to get test scores as high as possible on the official test suite.
# [16:43] <AryehGregor> So having as many tests there as possible seems like a good idea.
# [16:44] <Ms2ger> Well, so am I :)
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> Trying to get test scores as high as possible?
# [16:45] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well there is nothing wrong with getting good test scores by fixing bugs exposed by tests
# [16:45] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's the nice thing about comprehensive tests.
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> jgraham, if the test suite is comprehensive enough, that should be the easiest way to get good test scores.
# [16:47] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Right. The problem is with the first clause
# [16:47] <Workshiva> There's fixing bugs, and then there's producing test cases that you pass and everyone else fails, while withholding test cases you fail...
# [16:47] <annevk> The Microsoft way is generating lots of really easy-to-pass tests that are borderline okay. Not really helping anyone creating an interoperable implementation.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Is it just me, or are the only comprehensive HTML tests that have been submitted so far by private people rather than organizations?
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> I admit to not having looked, but people seem to be implying that Philip`'s canvas tests are the only comprehensive ones so far.
# [16:48] <Ms2ger> Any objections to auto-generating quirks mode versions of tests? :)
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> And my reflection tests are also fairly comprehensive.
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, is quirks mode well-defined enough for that to be reasonable?
# [16:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: implying? I flat out said so :)
# [16:49] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Microsoft might object since they'd probably fail every single one of them :-)
# [16:49] <Ms2ger> :)
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> In particular, do we expect there will be many undocumented places where web compat will require different quirks mode behavior?
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that too . . .
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> jgraham, did they cheat to pass the canvas tests?
# [16:49] <Philip`> so I think it's a great idea
# [16:49] <annevk> I wrote tests for XMLHttpRequest and EventSource but they got dropped from HTML...
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> That's the interesting question.
# [16:50] <jgraham> Also, there are quite comprehensive parsing tests but they are not officially part of the testsuite yet
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> Why not?
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> More IE failures! :)
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> Let's all conspire to get IE to fail as many tests as possible!
# [16:50] <erlehmann> maybe each vendor should also be rated on percentage of passed tests it did not contribute to. that would be an interesting metric.
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> (Legitimately, of course, since it deserves to fail more tests than any other browser. Even Opera.)
# [16:50] <jgraham> erlehmann: No, we should discourage metrics
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> (Although Opera's pretty awful too.)
# [16:50] <Ms2ger> Let's also conspire to improve interoperability!
# [16:51] <jgraham> I'm with Ms2ger :)
# [16:51] <erlehmann> jgraham, holistic heresy!
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I think it's fair to have metrics for test suites that are comprehensive enough.
# [16:51] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, thus, no metrics :)
# [16:51] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think they are still horribly misleading
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> They're not totally meaningful, because one trivial bug might cause a ton of failures, but they're still instructive.
# [16:51] <jgraham> Well yes exactly
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> More importantly, they'll pressure implementers to fix their bugs.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> Because everyone but the highest-scoring browser will have incentive to improve.
# [16:52] <jgraham> If you fail 50% of tests because 50% of tests check one detail then it's not reasonable to take away the message that you are much worse than anyone else
# [16:52] <jgraham> But that's the message people get
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but so what? It encourages browsers to improve.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> That's the goal of metrics, not actually informing people.
# [16:52] <Ms2ger> Also, Acid3
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> If there are no comparisons, why would they care?
# [16:53] <jgraham> It encourages browser vendors to only submit tests they pass
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Browser vendors aren't submitting many tests anyway.
# [16:53] <Ms2ger> I don't know about you, but Mozilla passes (almost) all the tests it has :)
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Plus, I said only publish metrics for comprehensive parts.
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# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Where you actually try to test every single requirement for a particular feature.
# [16:53] <Ms2ger> These tests might be wrong according to the spec, though
# [16:53] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Mozilla's setup is odd because you discard almost all tests you don't pass
# [16:54] <AryehGregor> No, you just flag them "todo()".
# [16:54] <Ms2ger> +could
# [16:54] <Philip`> At least with the canvas tests, Mozilla's "pass" in about 25% of cases means "fail but marked todo"
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# [16:55] <Ms2ger> Philip`, I'm working on that ;)
# [16:55] <jgraham> Philip`: about 15% if Ms2ger is to be believed
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> Mozilla has regression tests, not conformance tests.
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> Related but different.
# [16:55] * jgraham is more concered that the HTML testsuite has no automatic harness yet
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> It doesn't? How are people submitting those XML files?
# [16:56] <jgraham> At least I assume not since the Microsoft guy managed to submit bogus results
# [16:56] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think it is manually driven
# [16:56] <jgraham> Although I haven't used it
# [16:56] <Ms2ger> http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/runner/?path=../html-official/&autorun=1
# [16:56] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah, I know :)
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> jgraham, maybe he used a non-default browser setup.
# [16:56] * Philip` guesses he needs to fix and re-run his canvas result generator some time
# [16:57] <Philip`> and give a gold star to whichever browser increased its pass rate the most
# [16:57] <Philip`> Everyone else can have silver stars so they don't feel left out too badly
# [16:58] * Ms2ger guesses IE8->9
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> Wait a sec, how does this work? http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> Don't tell me you're supposed to manually click "Pass" or "Fail" 819 times.
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> That's horrifying.
# [16:58] <Ms2ger> Yeah
# [16:58] <Philip`> The current results are IE9 Preview 3
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> Especially since each file can have many tests in it.
# [16:59] <Philip`> so it won't be that trivial for them to win
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# [16:59] <Philip`> (since they got 73.7% already)
# [16:59] <AryehGregor> How is anything like my reflection tests supposed to get accepted?
# [16:59] <Philip`> (and that's certainly not too many significant figures)
# [16:59] <AryehGregor> It's like 20,000 separate assertion.
# [16:59] <AryehGregor> assertions.
# [17:00] <AryehGregor> Possibly more assertions than the entire existing HTML test suite combined, from what I've seen.
# [17:00] <Ms2ger> Certainly
# [17:00] <AryehGregor> Very sad.
# [17:00] <Ms2ger> You get the T-shirt :)
# [17:00] <Philip`> Just need to hire some more testing minions to click the buttons
# [17:01] <AryehGregor> Well, hopefully Hixie says I can submit my reflection tests, and improve the harness to run them automatically while I'm at it.
# [17:01] <Ms2ger> MS can do the CSS2.1 suite in three days, the HTML one is a break ;)
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> These tests aren't even easily to gauge visually.
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> The ones I'm looking at don't even all turn green if they pass.
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> One of them even had a giant red square, but the text said it passed.
# [17:02] <Philip`> With a reasonable UI I marked pass/fail on manual canvas tests at about 2Hz, so 20K would be not even three hours
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> This is inexcusable.
# [17:03] <AryehGregor> Spending two hours to manually pass/fail tests that currently take five seconds to run automatically?
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# [17:07] <AryehGregor> Okay, so it takes 23.5 s to run in IE9 on my laptop.
# [17:07] <AryehGregor> Still.
# [17:07] <AryehGregor> (and IE9 is barely in last place, 83.9% passed, Opera 86.3%, Chrome 87.9%, Firefox 92.7%)
# [17:07] <AryehGregor> (go Firefox!)
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# [17:09] <AryehGregor> I'm sure I could easily come up with another 72,568 or so reflection tests.
# [17:10] <Ms2ger> Mubarak is stepping down?
# [17:10] <AryehGregor> So claimeth Twitter.
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# [17:10] * Ms2ger kicks testharness.js
# [17:13] <AryehGregor> http://www.google.com/search?q=mubarak#q=mubarak&tbs=mbl:1
# [17:13] * jgraham whimpers
# [17:13] * AryehGregor had to do a lot of work to figure out which parts of that URL he could remove
# [17:13] <Ms2ger> Oh, you fixed it
# [17:13] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, what are your specific objections? I've gotten used to the cumbersomeness, it's not so bad with generate_tests().
# [17:13] <AryehGregor> I suspect it's very slow, though.
# [17:13] <Ms2ger> The harness integration was bogus before
# [17:13] <jgraham> I suspect the performance could be improved
# [17:14] <Ms2ger> Ask the WebPerf guys :)
# [17:14] * AryehGregor plans to test performance against his custom-written harness on his reflection tests
# [17:14] <jgraham> Thinking about WebPerf. makes me sad
# [17:14] <jgraham> Specifically in regard to my harness
# [17:14] <jgraham> Since it seems they want to use it but have entirely different needs
# [17:15] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, what harness integration?
# [17:15] <Ms2ger> The one that makes http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/runner/?path=../html-official/&autorun=1 work
# [17:16] <Ms2ger> Hmm
# [17:16] <Ms2ger> top.completion_callback(this_obj.tests, this.status);
# [17:16] <Ms2ger> jgraham, looks bogus still
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# [17:16] <AryehGregor> How does that work? It just registers one pass or fail per file?
# [17:16] <AryehGregor> Forcing you to have a million tiny files?
# [17:17] <Ms2ger> You get per-test callbacks and a per-file callback
# [17:17] <jgraham> Ms2ger: s/this/this_obj/ ?
# [17:17] <AryehGregor> this_this_obj.tests?
# [17:17] <Ms2ger> Either that or the opposite
# [17:18] <jgraham> AryehGregor: IRC magic regexp
# [17:18] <Ms2ger> |this| looks fine
# [17:18] <jgraham> Right, I think either should work
# [17:18] <jgraham> But using both is probably silly :)
# [17:19] <Ms2ger> Passing this_obj as the second argument to top.result_callback.call is even more silly
# [17:19] <jgraham> I thought I fixed that
# [17:19] <Ms2ger> You did
# [17:19] <jgraham> Sigh
# [17:19] <jgraham> I don't even think it should be .call
# [17:20] <Ms2ger> All gone now
# [17:20] <jgraham> Thanks
# [17:20] <Ms2ger> No, thanks to you :)
# [17:20] <jgraham> Oh, I thought you meant you had fixed something
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# [17:25] <Ms2ger> * add_completion_callback(callback) - callback called with an array of tests
# [17:25] <Ms2ger> * and an status object
# [17:25] <Ms2ger> jgraham, status object? ^
# [17:26] <Ms2ger> Oh, good
# [17:26] * Ms2ger overlooked
# [17:26] <Ms2ger> test.message isn't always a string yet?
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# [17:42] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No, it can be a template thing
# [17:43] <jgraham> I think only assert_throws still does that
# [17:43] <Ms2ger> I say again, eww
# [17:43] <jgraham> Indeed
# [17:43] <jgraham> It was a terrible mistake
# [17:44] <TabAtkins> pluma: Yo, I'm the dude pushing vars in CSS. Yes, it'll be a *long* time before it's usable in the wild without help. But if you don't need the CSSOM side, it can all be handled by a preprocessor (like, um, SASS).
# [17:44] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Feel free to fix if you have nothing better to do :) Otherwise I will get around to it eventually
# [17:44] <pluma> TabAtkins: I know, but I really really really am looking forward to the implementation.
# [17:44] <jgraham> Sooner if you are complaining
# [17:44] * Ms2ger complains
# [17:45] <jgraham> Sooner != now, however
# [17:45] <MikeSmith> in the absolute 'Define a process for "particularly exceptional circumstances"' is a really nice phrase
# [17:45] <Ms2ger> I might look at it
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> Hixie, per <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12029#c4>, can you re-add atob()/btoa(), since you weren't asked to remove them? I'm just waiting for someone to tell me that they can't review my base64 tests because it's not in the W3C spec.
# [17:48] <Ms2ger> I'm vaguely planning to review them
# [17:48] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
# [17:48] <AryehGregor> They're pretty short, it should only take like ten minutes.
# [17:48] <AryehGregor> I really hate how the chairs always dodge questions with "I didn't say anything official" or "That's up to the working group, not us" or similar.
# [17:49] <AryehGregor> Well, Sam does that, at least. Maciej is kind enough to give unofficial opinions most of the time, and I don't see Paul saying practically anything ever.
# [17:49] <AryehGregor> Oh well, it could be much worse.
# [17:50] * AryehGregor files a W3C bug on the base64 stuff to give Hixie more of an excuse to add them, since it seems like at the W3C people care about technicalities instead of results
# [17:50] <Ms2ger> Just make sure he doesn't let you skip to the start of the line
# [17:51] <AryehGregor> Wait, I can't, they're still there: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#atob
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# [17:51] <AryehGregor> Okay, back to editing commands, since my slavemaster hasn't gotten back to me about permission to work on reflection tests.
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# [18:10] <erlehmann> are they really that desperate? http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/vp8/default.aspx
# [18:10] <erlehmann> i hope so.
# [18:10] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Since you updated the impl status for <meter>, could you do the same for <progress> in chrome?
# [18:10] <Ms2ger> Don't you have an account?
# [18:10] * AryehGregor begins to discover how horrifying execCommand() is
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: To what? I don't know what to do.
# [18:11] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, desperate? How so? Apple told us months ago that this was happening.
# [18:11] <Ms2ger> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status-documentation.html
# [18:11] <AryehGregor> Now it's going to get exciting.
# [18:12] <AryehGregor> Because we'll get to see what patents people think they have that apply to VP8.
# [18:12] <AryehGregor> Maybe this is why Google didn't offer anyone indemnity. Perhaps they foresaw this and wanted to see what came up before making a decision.
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> I'll cling to that belief, because it permits me to continue viewing Google as infinitely wise and benevolent.
# [18:13] <AryehGregor> But it actually seems fairly likely, all things told. They must have known this would happen, and they're going to have plans to counter it, and those plans will have to depend on what patents people put down.
# [18:13] <TabAtkins> Do we have any tests for meter/progress? I dunno whether to mark this as "excellent" or "buggy" support.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> If they think they can beat them in court, they might offer blanket indemnity. If they think there are a few strong ones, they might want to buy them.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> This will be interesting.
# [18:14] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, generally you should assume we don't have any tests for anything, because that's basically true except for about four features.
# [18:14] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: ;_; That's what I thought. Welp, marking as "excellent" until proven wrong.
# [18:15] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, desperate as in “apparently they did not find anything in their portfolio”
# [18:15] <erlehmann> or am i reading that announcement wrong?
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, MPEG-LA doesn't have a portfolio.
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> It's just a forum for people to form patent pools, as I understand it.
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> It owns nothing.
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# [18:16] <AryehGregor> So I'd guess that any time they form a patent pool, they put out a public call for anyone who has patents to submit them.
# [18:16] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, i thought the press announcement yielded the idea of having scrutinized the existing pool and failing to come up with substantial items.
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> That's the point of the pool, to flush out patent holders by offering them guaranteed royalties without having to bother suing anyone.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> What "existing pool"?
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> They have several existing pools\.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> .
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> Eight, apparently.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> And three in formation, including VP8.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/LTE/default.aspx http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/mvc/default.aspx
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> Those seem to read pretty much the same as the VP8 one.
# [18:18] <erlehmann> next up: MPEG LA launches call for gene patent pool.
# [18:20] <erlehmann> and demands rolalties from hippies, hue hue hue
# [18:20] <erlehmann> royalties
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> Interesting. I'll get quoted in a .net magazine article.
# [18:23] <AryehGregor> Like MS .NET?
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> I think it's for netmag.co.uk
# [18:23] * AryehGregor looks at output of http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/test/editcommands.html in different browsers and shakes his head sadly
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> (of course, Opera doesn't work because of its broken Selection support, as usual, so I'll just have fun ignoring it)
# [18:24] * bfrohs looks at it and cries a little
# [18:24] * AryehGregor wonders if he ever annoys the Opera employees here with his constant griping about Opera
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> You know, wasn't there an incredibly long e-mail that Google sent to the whatwg a year or two ago with tons of research into execCommand?
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> Here we go, Ojan Vafal, December 2009.
# [18:26] * AryehGregor re-reads
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> s/Vafal/Vafai/
# [18:27] <AryehGregor> In bold Arial, or whatever Gmail uses for people's names, it's hard to tell the difference.
# [18:27] * AryehGregor pleads illiteracy
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# [18:33] <AryehGregor> Oh, this whole huge thing doesn't even address things like bold.
# [18:33] * AryehGregor goes back to making stuff up
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# [18:55] <TabAtkins> Oh man, this new Janella Monae album is great right from the beginning.
# [18:55] * TabAtkins is excited.
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# [18:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It seems like you might gripe about Opera based on a rather small number of observations e.g. Selection support
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yeah, I'm pretty sure everything I've been complaining about is related to Selection support.
# [18:55] <AryehGregor> Maybe a few Range issues too, at most.
# [18:56] <AryehGregor> I also regularly complain about random other stuff, though, like the lack of a public bug tracker.
# [18:56] * jgraham has no idea who Janella Monae is, but is very much appreciating the new Decemberists
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# [18:56] <AryehGregor> The only thing I can remember complaining about WebKit much is its forms implementation.
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> I have a whole list of complaints about Firefox (relative to Chrome) written up somewhere, but I never got around to publishing them at a publicly-disclosed URL.
# [18:57] <jgraham> Can't you test execCommand without relying on Selection?
# [18:58] <jgraham> (I haven't thought about this, so maybe not)
# [18:58] <Sirisian|Work> AryehGregor, submit bug reports? that's what I do
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> document.execCommand() seems to operate on the current selection.
# [18:58] <jgraham> (e.g. by using innerHTML or something)
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> There may be other ways to invoke it, but I'm just getting my feet wet.
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> Sirisian|Work, I've submitted a couple of bug reports to Opera, but as I said, private bug tracker.
# [18:58] <jgraham> Oh, I see
# [18:58] <AryehGregor> As far as I can tell, they may as well have fallen down the memory hole, so I can't be bothered.
# [18:58] <Sirisian|Work> oh Opera.
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> I think at least in IE, you can theoretically invoke execCommand() on whatever their idea of ranges is.
# [18:59] <AryehGregor> It seems like in IE9, you can invoke it on non-contentEditable stuff too, which is actually a quite sane feature.
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# [19:05] <AryehGregor> Where's an example of a nested <ol> in the HTML spec? There seems to be a stylesheet bug.
# [19:05] <AryehGregor> Never mind, found one.
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# [19:06] <AryehGregor> Oh, Hixie manually puts a <p> inside every <li>, that explains it.
# [19:06] <TabAtkins> Some margin bug?
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> p + * > li { set some margins }
# [19:07] <AryehGregor> No idea why it doesn't apply to all li's.
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Janelle Monae sings, um, I guess you can call it "cyborg hip-hop".
# [19:09] * jgraham wondrs if it still counts as singing if you are a cyborg
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> Did it count as singing when GLaDOS did it?
# [19:09] <jgraham> Assuming that your vocal cords are technologically-enhanced
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> (The answer is yes.)
# [19:10] <jgraham> I don't know who GLaDOS are either
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Dude.
# [19:10] <jgraham> I am not hot on cyborg hip-hop
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> The AI in Portal. Sang "Still Alive".
# [19:10] <jgraham> Or hip-hop in general really
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> The cake is a lie, assume the party escort submission position, etc.
# [19:11] <jgraham> And neither have I played Portal
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Dude. Do so.
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Or just watch this: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRthZgszykLs&ei=A3tVTcXIE5CusAPf_ZiWBg&usg=AFQjCNF8bFDzoCu4y9RFm560J08OSnCO8Q&sig2=ICYWrhs0qBx5PvVWTDKs_w
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> Jeezus, one sec.
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# [19:12] <TabAtkins> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RthZgszykLs
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# [19:12] * bfrohs loves Portal
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# [19:19] <TabAtkins> Urgh. What's a good name for one whole chunk of a list-valued property in CSS? Like one layer in the background shorthand.
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> We already have "property value" for the whole thing, and "component value" for the smaller chunks.
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> But list-valued properties have a useful unit of organization between them.
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# [19:27] <AryehGregor> I'm somewhat scared that this is how complicated my first pass at an algorithm for one small part of execCommand() is, before I've even really tried anything interesting: http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/editcommands.html
# [19:27] * AryehGregor wonders if this will wind up being more complicated than the text/html parser
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# [19:27] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, DOM Core has something to split text nodes, no?
# [19:28] <AryehGregor> Oh, does it?
# [19:28] <AryehGregor> Let me check.
# [19:28] <AryehGregor> splitText(offset) looks like it.
# [19:29] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
# [19:29] <Ms2ger> I can pull out the algorithm if that's useful
# [19:30] <AryehGregor> The algorithm looks like it's missing <p>s, so the margins are wrong. :)
# [19:31] <Ms2ger> Not wrong, just cramped ;)
# [19:31] <AryehGregor> But yeah, that will do what I want.
# [19:31] <AryehGregor> No need to split out the algorithm.
# [19:31] <Ms2ger> Okay
# [19:32] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, do you realize this doesn't take into account that the Range might not start with an Element? http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html#extensions-to-the-range-interface
# [19:33] <AryehGregor> In fact, there's no interop in that case. Firefox's behavior is to make it work anyway, but I'm not sure how that would fit into the HTML5 fragment parsing algorithm.
# [19:33] <AryehGregor> But I think that's probably the sanest behavior.
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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# [19:34] <Ms2ger> Same for XMLSerializer
# [19:35] <AryehGregor> You should have an XXX there or something.
# [19:36] <AryehGregor> Maybe we should file a bug against HTML to support that case?
# [19:36] <TabAtkins> Oh man, Safari/Mac's PNG encoding is much worse than Chrome/Linux, which is already horrible. 500x500 black square creates a data url 7.2kb in size.
# [19:36] <Ms2ger> Checking if I can just fix it
# [19:36] <AryehGregor> What's Chrome/Linux's?
# [19:36] <TabAtkins> 2.8kb
# [19:37] <TabAtkins> A well-optimized file can hit 125 bytes.
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# [19:37] <AryehGregor> Yikes.
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> Yus. a 5000x difference. >_<
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> Durp, I mean 50x.
# [19:38] <AryehGregor> Was about to say. :)
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> 5000%
# [19:39] <Ms2ger> Hmm
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# [19:57] <Sirisian|Work> Any implementors here willing to prototype an idea? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557#c12
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# [19:57] <Sirisian|Work> On that same note is there a list of implementors and what they're currently working on?
# [19:59] <AryehGregor> Sirisian|Work, major implementers are Microsoft, Mozilla, Google, Apple, and Opera.
# [19:59] <Sirisian|Work> How do you contact them to prototype something?
# [20:00] <AryehGregor> Filing bugs in their bug trackers is one possibility.
# [20:00] <Sirisian|Work> I guess I've been confused what the process is. When I talked to shepazu (Doug) before he said getting a prototype from an implementor was key.
# [20:00] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's the only way you can be sure of getting spec buy-in.
# [20:01] <AryehGregor> If you can write the relevant language (usually C++) and are willing to put in the time, you could write a prototype implementation yourself for Gecko or WebKit.
# [20:01] <AryehGregor> (i.e., Firefox or Chrome/Safari)
# [20:01] <AryehGregor> Since those are open-source.
# [20:01] <AryehGregor> But you'd want to talk with some people in charge of the relevant project to see if they'd be interested in accepting patches for it.
# [20:02] <AryehGregor> Otherwise, you don't have much hope, but you can try filing bugs in the various implementers' bug trackers.
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> Generally implementers have endless stuff they want to implement and limited resources to implement it with, so if you're not willing to contribute the resources, it's fairly unlikely your idea will be much competition for all the stuff they have on their plate already.
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> But you can try talking to some people at the relevant projects and asking.
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> Hmm, mouse capture.
# [20:03] <AryehGregor> They'll definitely be interested in that.
# [20:03] <Sirisian|Work> I know C++ fairly well, but I wasn't really willing to write it.
# [20:04] <Sirisian|Work> I mean learning all the source. ugh :P
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# [20:04] <AryehGregor> Someone will implement something in this direction at some point for sure.
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> If you want to encourage them to prioritize it more, you could file bugs and post on their mailing lists.
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> For the open-source ones.
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> This is most likely to be prototyped first by Firefox, Chrome, or Safari, which all have open-source rendering engines.
# [20:05] <Sirisian|Work> I'll just submit a bug to firefox and chrome since they're probably
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> But in reality, you have no control here unless you're willing to do the work. That's life.
# [20:05] <Sirisian|Work> going to be interested*
# [20:05] <AryehGregor> The ones who are willing to contribute resources get to control how those resources are allocated.
# [20:10] <Sirisian|Work> Wait would this be part of the Firefox Core or the Firefox browser. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi
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# [20:12] <Sirisian|Work> Also would I just submit it to the chromium bug list?
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# [20:12] <TabAtkins> Wait, wut. Our implementation of <input type=date> was already fucked up (it's a spinbox that changes the data ONE MINUTE AT A TIME), but our <input type=number> is even worse.
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# [20:13] <AryehGregor> Sirisian|Work, should be Core. Chromium has a bug tracker, you can use that.
# [20:13] <TabAtkins> If you don't give an explicit min/max/start value, the first press of the "up" gives you -3.4e38.
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, haven't I been saying this for months?
# [20:13] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I didn't know our type=number was so dumb.
# [20:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: re reflection tests, go for it (assuming it won't take, like, 5 weeks!)
# [20:13] <AryehGregor> I don't like to call people incompetent, but the person writing this support . . .
# [20:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: looking into atob
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# [20:13] <TabAtkins> At least type=range works well enough to use it.
# [20:14] * gsnedder1 is now known as gsnedders
# [20:15] <AryehGregor> Hixie, should be more like a few hours, I hope. Dunno how much of the backscroll you read -- it turns out the HTMLWG test suite is ludicrously small. My reflection tests probably test more assertions than the whole current repo. So I might have to do a bunch of refactoring and maybe improve the repository harness or something. But I don't think it will take more than, say, 10 hours total.
# [20:15] <AryehGregor> I mean, I already did the hard part, I think.
# [20:15] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, you guys should be cloning Gecko's UI. Period.
# [20:17] <Hixie> i was aware that the htmlwg test suite was ludicrously small, but didn't realise that your reflection tests were so thorough, awesome :-)
# [20:17] <Hixie> did you end up filing a bug about atob?
# [20:17] <Hixie> i'm completely confused by what sam wants
# [20:17] <Hixie> as usual
# [20:17] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: They do indeed have the best currently.
# [20:17] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I didn't file a bug because they're still in the HTML spec.
# [20:17] <AryehGregor> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#atob
# [20:18] <Hixie> i guess the spec splitter is broken
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> I think you can just re-add them, anyway.
# [20:18] <Hixie> k
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> Nobody actually told you to take them out.
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> My reflection tests aren't actually that thorough, there's lots of stuff I plan to add to them.
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> But it still works out to 27,000ish assertions.
# [20:18] <AryehGregor> It just happens that there are lots of elements and attributes in HTML. :)
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> But it's only like ten or twenty assertions per element.
# [20:19] <Hixie> technically i should never have put atob in, because the chairs asked me not to add new features
# [20:19] <Hixie> which is why i removed them when sam reminded me of that
# [20:19] <AryehGregor> I don't think it counts as a "new feature".
# [20:19] <Hixie> (atob does seem to be missing from the w3c singlepage version http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html)
# [20:20] <AryehGregor> You could leave it out, but then where do the tests go?
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# [20:24] <Hixie> i'm adding it back in
# [20:24] <Hixie> so hopefully that will be moot
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# [20:31] <AryehGregor> Can you map methods to arrays? Like ["foo", "bar"].map(toUpperCase) -> ["FOO", "BAR"], except clearly that won't work because toUpperCase isn't a function.
# [20:31] <TabAtkins> You have to use a converter to un-dot them.
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# [20:32] <AryehGregor> Meaning what?
# [20:32] <TabAtkins> I have one if you want it, it's a trivial little function.
# [20:32] <AryehGregor> map(function(s) {return s.toUpperCase})
# [20:32] <AryehGregor> Like that?
# [20:32] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [20:32] <AryehGregor> Makes sense, and works.
# [20:32] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
# [20:32] <TabAtkins> Well, not quite. You need to deal with the arguments.
# [20:32] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: ["foo", "bar"].map(String.prototype.toUpperCase.call) would work, no?
# [20:32] <TabAtkins> Wait, that works?
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# [20:33] <AryehGregor> TypeError: object is not a function
# [20:33] <TabAtkins> Argh, sorry for the noise. yeah, of course that works.
# [20:33] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>try { alert(["a", "b"].map(String.prototype.toUpperCase.call)); } catch (e) { alert(e) };</script>
# [20:33] <AryehGregor> I was figuring some magic like that would work.
# [20:33] <AryehGregor> But this particular incantation seems not to.
# [20:34] * gsnedders needs to check the spec for that
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# [20:37] <AryehGregor> There's no way to change the name of an element, right? You have to create a new one, apply the other one's attributes and children, insert the new one before/after the old one, and remove the old one?
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# [20:39] <Hixie> correct
# [20:40] <Hixie> same with the namespace
# [20:40] <Hixie> (not sure about the prefix)
# [20:40] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I can't work out why that throws TypeError…
# [20:41] <AryehGregor> It only throws TypeError in WebKit, I think.
# [20:42] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It throws TypeError in SpiderMonkey, V8, and Carakan, at least
# [20:42] <AryehGregor> Oh, okay.
# [20:42] <AryehGregor> Fun.
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# [20:43] <gsnedders> Oh, duh
# [20:44] <gsnedders> You call String.prototype.toUpperCase.call (which is just a reference to Function.prototype.call) with this equal to undefined
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# [20:44] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I use function undot(func) { return function(s) { return s[func](); }}, which is used like ['foo','bar'].map(undot('toUpperCase')
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# [20:47] <AryehGregor> That hurts my brain.
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# [20:48] <TabAtkins> It's perfectly normal functional programming. ^_^
# [20:48] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, so what does that mean in practice?
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# [20:48] <TabAtkins> It's just a generic constructor for the function you already used.
# [20:49] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I figured out what it did. It just hurt my brain when I first saw it.
# [20:49] <TabAtkins> (I hate the method/property distinction, anyway, especially for languages that don't recognize a private/public distinction.)
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# [20:50] <TabAtkins> There is literally no difference between foo.toUpperCase and toUpperCase(foo), in terms of functionality. It's just harder to do functional programming with the former.
# [20:51] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: You're effectively trying to call undefined.
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# [20:51] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, so is there in fact any cool fancy way to do it, or do we have to write a wrapper thingie?
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# [20:53] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: ["foo", "bar"].map(Function.prototype.call.bind(String.prototype.toUpperCase))
# [20:54] <gsnedders> Actually… ["foo", "bar"].map(Function.prototype.call, String.prototype.toUpperCase)
# [20:54] <gsnedders> The second is quicker and better supported
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# [20:56] <AryehGregor> Fascinating.
# [20:56] * AryehGregor goes with TabAtkins' version
# [20:56] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Yeah, I can't claim that's an obvious way to do it :P
# [20:56] <TabAtkins> Ah, I didn't realize map took a this argument.
# [20:56] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I forgot that too, thus the original bind suggestion
# [20:56] <aho> TabAtkins, i like the @var proposal thingy. are there builds available already? :>
# [20:57] <TabAtkins> aho: No, the plumbing is being put together right now.
# [20:57] <TabAtkins> It'll be a bit before anything useful shows up in nightlies.
# [20:57] <aho> ah, good to hear
# [20:57] <aho> emulation via js would be fine for now too :>
# [20:58] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Was this you? http://twitter.com/tinmantinsan/status/36059980444471296
# [20:58] <TabAtkins> Emulation via preprocessor will be available in SASS, too.
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# [20:58] <aho> great
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> My crude initial algorithm for execCommand("bold") sort of somewhat works, hurrah: http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/test/bold.html
# [20:59] <aho> (i wish sass wasnt that slow) :f
# [20:59] <chriseppstein> aho: patches accepted
# [20:59] <bfrohs> Speaking of execCommand, is there an execCommand for inserting inline elements?
# [20:59] <aho> don't know anything about ruby, sorry :l
# [21:00] <chriseppstein> aho: what are you good at?
# [21:00] <aho> js and java
# [21:01] <chriseppstein> just how fast do you need sass to be?
# [21:03] <aho> had about 10 files à 30 lines and sass took about 20 seconds to process them
# [21:04] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: :) beautiful
# [21:04] <chriseppstein> 300lines of css took 20s?
# [21:04] <chriseppstein> bs
# [21:04] <aho> *shrug*
# [21:05] <chriseppstein> aho: when was this
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# [21:05] <aho> about 6-7 weeks ago
# [21:05] <chriseppstein> was it the sass alpha release?
# [21:06] <chriseppstein> or stable
# [21:06] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: interesting tweek tweet… wondering who tinmantinson is
# [21:06] <aho> was on some core duo machine with 4gb ram and vista32
# [21:06] <Dashiva> I found it via pyon
# [21:06] <aho> stable, i guess
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# [21:07] <erlehmann> aho, rewrite it in c, using libowfat and tinyldap!
# [21:07] <chriseppstein> aho: do you have those files still?
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# [21:07] <aho> at work, yes
# [21:07] <MikeSmith> holy christ almighty 27,425 tweets
# [21:07] <chriseppstein> aho: plz send them to me chris@eppsteins.net so I can investigate
# [21:08] <aho> btw is there a way to use a color as string?
# [21:09] <aho> eg i want something like "334455" and i want to use that as color in one place (eg #345 and a darker version thereof) and as url in another (eg foo-334455.png)
# [21:09] <aho> TabAtkins, does something like that work with @var stuff?
# [21:10] <MikeSmith> d
# [21:10] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: how is it that you found dude's tweets to begin with?
# [21:11] <Dashiva> Via pyon
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# [21:14] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I got no clue who pyon is either
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# [21:16] <Dashiva> Neither do I, but hsivonen and 100+ others retweeted http://twitter.com/pyon/status/35854839976042496
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# [21:17] <MikeSmith> ah
# [21:17] <MikeSmith> very Japan-ese
# [21:18] <aho> chriseppstein, eppsteins.net or eppstein.net ?
# [21:18] <chriseppstein> aho: plural
# [21:18] <MikeSmith> I
# [21:18] <alystair> hi all
# [21:18] <aho> kay
# [21:18] <aho> just wanted to be sure
# [21:18] <aho> :>
# [21:18] <chriseppstein> aho: thanks!
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# [21:18] <alystair> I found a fun render discrepency in Safari while being lazy and not wanting to use <HR> :)
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# [21:19] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I wonder how many people understand that today in tokyo there was a weird mixture of rain and snow and perhaps that in part is what motivated the pyon tweet
# [21:21] <Dashiva> Not many
# [21:21] <Dashiva> I think most people saw cat avatar + randomness
# [21:22] <aho> :3
# [21:22] <AryehGregor> That is an awesome tweet.
# [21:22] * deane walked to the Mozilla office yesterday and visited the team there. Met one of the openwebs best: doublec
# [21:22] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: I see. well, I love the web anyway
# [21:22] <AryehGregor> The other day we had rain, but it was below freezing.
# [21:22] <AryehGregor> So we got an inch of ice on the street.
# [21:22] <AryehGregor> It was really cool.
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# [21:23] * MikeSmith pictures deane walking into Mozilla office
# [21:23] <AryehGregor> Sadly, most of the ice was rough rather than slippery, so it wasn't as fun as it could be.
# [21:23] <MikeSmith> deane: you met heycam?
# [21:23] <MikeSmith> kinetik?
# [21:23] <MikeSmith> roc?
# [21:24] <alystair> http://lorinhalpert.com/ipoc/bugs/height/ :)
# [21:24] <alystair> check that out in anything but safari/ie6|7 and then look in safari
# [21:25] <MikeSmith> "Some text could go here"
# [21:25] <MikeSmith> indeed
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# [21:28] <AryehGregor> "The prefix JavaScript: is stripped from any text pasted into the IE9 address bar. This mitigates a socially-engineered XSS attack common on social networks wherein users were tricked into performing self-inflicted XSS injections upon themselves. No, CTRL+C,ALT+D,CTRL+V, ENTER will not give you magical powers."
# [21:28] <AryehGregor> Lame.
# [21:29] <aho> training wheels! :>
# [21:30] <bfrohs> what about separate pastes? :P (javascript + :code)
# [21:32] <alystair> looks like safari is ignoring small line-heights
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# [21:35] <TabAtkins> aho: Jeezus no. @var is *not* a character macro. It's a variable.
# [21:35] <aho> also no darker/lighter then, i presume
# [21:36] <TabAtkins> That's addressible separately. I'm expecting to do something in that vein for Colors 4.
# [21:37] <TabAtkins> Like @var $foo #345; @var $bar darken($foo);
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# [21:38] <aho> or $foo.darken()
# [21:38] <AryehGregor> Bwahahaha.
# [21:38] <aho> there should be some strength parameter though
# [21:38] <TabAtkins> No, that's javascript. Don't mix languages.
# [21:38] <AryehGregor> OOCSS.
# [21:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sure, darken($foo, 50%) or whatever.
# [21:38] * AryehGregor demands strong typing and polymorphism for CSS variables
# [21:39] <Hixie> my goodness, TabAtkins is turning CSS into perl
# [21:39] <jcranmer> must... kill... perl
# [21:39] <TabAtkins> Just wait until I unveil %foo
# [21:39] <Hixie> hey perl is a perfectly writable language
# [21:39] <TabAtkins> (Note: I will not do this.)
# [21:39] <Hixie> (it's just unreadable)
# [21:39] <TabAtkins> Though, selector variables tiptoe right to the edge of incomprehensibility.
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# [21:40] <TabAtkins> ARGH BUZZ NOT SUPPORTING MULTILOGIN MAKES ME WANT TO KILL THINGS
# [21:40] <AryehGregor> One of the evil things about Perl is how it uses punctuation instead of identifiers. Not only is it less obvious what they mean, but punctuation is impossible to look up.
# [21:41] <TabAtkins> Yeah, punctuation is a precious resource that needs to be carefully apportioned.
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> Once I was trying to read a Perl script, and was attempting to double-check what "-f" meant.
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> So I tried searching the manuals.
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> . . . that didn't work well.
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> (I eventually figured out it meant what I thought it meant.)
# [21:41] <AryehGregor> sh's "." also messed me up like that.
# [21:42] <alystair> where do I go to complain about safari/webkit renderer :D
# [21:43] <TabAtkins> bugs.webkit.org
# [21:43] <alystair> it's odd because chrome renders 1px line-height correctly, but safari does not
# [21:43] <TabAtkins> alystair: Probably a result of something getting fixed more recently than the last time Safari rolled webkit.
# [21:43] <AryehGregor> Yeah, try in a WebKit nightly.
# [21:43] <AryehGregor> If it's fixed there, no point in filing a bug.
# [21:44] * alystair is too noob to build a nightly, also has pc only
# [21:44] <TabAtkins> If something related to rendering works in Chrome but not Webkit, it's almost certainly just a result of Safari being old.
# [21:44] <AryehGregor> They have nightly downloads for Windows.
# [21:44] <TabAtkins> alystair: Nightly webkits are easy. You just run a file.
# [21:44] <AryehGregor> http://nightly.webkit.org/
# [21:44] <alystair> ah I see
# [21:44] <alystair> thanks
# [21:44] <AryehGregor> "Nightly" means they compile it for you every night.
# [21:44] <alystair> and this is what would be rolled into safari eventually?
# [21:44] <AryehGregor> Yes.
# [21:44] <TabAtkins> alystair: Yeah, next time Safari does a release.
# [21:44] <jamesr_> technically it's up to apple what gets rolled into safari
# [21:45] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, you could say something like that about practically any statement about the future, though.
# [21:45] <jamesr_> AryehGregor: that it's up to apple? :P
# [21:45] <alystair> nope, still has the bug :)
# [21:45] <alystair> in the nightly
# [21:45] <jamesr_> file!
# [21:45] <AryehGregor> The United States will have a presidential election in 2012, but technically it's up to Congress and the states to not amend the Constitution and make the U.S. a hereditary monarchy.
# [21:46] <alystair> is my example clear enough
# [21:46] <TabAtkins> Hixie: To be fair, I'm only turning CSS into PHP.
# [21:46] <jamesr_> no, i opened it and i have no clue what i'm looking at
# [21:46] <aho> :v
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# [21:46] <AryehGregor> (actually, they'd probably require unanimous agreement of the states to do that, because otherwise it would deprive a state of its due representation in the Senate without consent)
# [21:47] <AryehGregor> (one of the two things that Constitutional amendments are not allowed to do)
# [21:47] <TabAtkins> Though I just now realized that a line with three identifiers, all prefixed with unique punctuation, is pretty bad.
# [21:47] <AryehGregor> (the other is prohibiting the import of slaves before 1822 or something)
# [21:47] * key is now known as hobojoe
# [21:47] * hobojoe is now known as key
# [21:47] <AryehGregor> (1808, sorry)
# [21:48] <AryehGregor> (sorry, it also can't levy direct taxes not in proportion to the Census before 1808)
# [21:49] <TabAtkins> I love seeing ancient requirements baked into old technologies.
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> See also: the Third Amendment.
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> I want to know when a court last ruled something unconstitutional under the Third Amendment.
# [21:50] <AryehGregor> 1979, it seems.
# [21:50] <TabAtkins> link?
# [21:50] <AryehGregor> No, 1982 was the actual case.
# [21:50] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engblom_v._Carey
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# [21:51] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
# [21:53] <TabAtkins> Dammit, I wish there was some way to use @ in a tweet without linking to somebody.
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> That's pretty awesome.
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> \@
# [21:53] <AryehGregor> @@
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# [21:53] <AryehGregor> There's no escape method?
# [21:53] <TabAtkins> I dunno, and I don't particularly want to experiement on my public account.
# [21:53] <TabAtkins> I guess I could make a throwaway account.
# [21:54] <rubys> AryehGregor: what do you want an unofficial opinion on? Go for it, here is your chance...
# [21:55] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: Ooh, the new embedly extension is firing on almost *everything* in twitter. *Awesome*.
# [21:55] <AryehGregor> rubys, whether we should treat documentation of preexisting web platform features any differently from bug fixes of comparable size, and why.
# [21:56] <rubys> let's start with why.
# [21:57] <rubys> Not everybody follows the whatwg. Heck, not even all of the browser vendors are participating in the whatwg.
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# [21:57] <AryehGregor> Agreed, but that applies equally well to bug fixes only brought up in the whatwg.
# [21:57] <rubys> Imagine you are a browser vendor who is not in the WHATWG and are faithfully trying to implement the spec.
# [21:57] <rubys> The next day, the spec changes on you without warning or even any discussion.
# [21:58] <alystair> maybe what you guys need is better marketing ;)
# [21:58] <rubys> All I am suggesting at this point, and I've said it several times now, is that the very minimum level of courtesy that could be provided is to open a bug report.
# [21:58] <alystair> and perhaps a more fancy site like w3c
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# [21:58] <rubys> That seems like common sense to me. What do you think?
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# [21:59] <TabAtkins> rubys: Do you think that non-w3c browsers are more likely to be following the w3c bug tracker than the whatwg commit list?
# [21:59] <AryehGregor> I think people who want to follow spec changes can sign up to the commit-watchers list. It's pretty low-volume, and that guarantees that you won't miss any changes even if someone forgets to file a bug report first.
# [21:59] <Hixie> so every time i see a mistake i have to open a bug report? good luck with that.
# [21:59] <alystair> http://blog.whatwg.org/ <- svg logo in header is not loading properly
# [21:59] <rubys> what non-w3c browser?
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# [22:00] <TabAtkins> rubys: Oh, sorry, you said "in the WHATWG". Consider my question suitably amended.
# [22:00] <alystair> or maybe it's just in my copy of Firefox.. hmm
# [22:00] <AryehGregor> Presumably Hixie could configure his script to automatically create and resolve a bug in the W3C tracker when he was making a change that had no associated bug.
# [22:00] <AryehGregor> But it seems easier to just ask people to follow the commit-watchers list.
# [22:00] <TabAtkins> alystair: Yeah, it loads properly in Chrome.
# [22:00] <AryehGregor> It sees less traffic than the bugs list, I think.
# [22:01] <rubys> my goal is to get people to talk. As near as I can tell, your goal is to avoid that.
# [22:01] <AryehGregor> alystair, Firefox doesn't support SVG in <img> before version 4.
# [22:01] <rubys> I'll be frank: I get email all of the time from people complaining about this or that. Each time I get them to actually make a statement in a place where it can be discussed.
# [22:02] <AryehGregor> rubys, I'm happy to have people talk if they want to. In practice, though, some discussion will occur in the WHATWG, and we can't transport all that discussion over to the W3C. People who don't want to follow both places will miss some of the discussion.
# [22:02] <AryehGregor> That's an inevitable consequence of having spec discussion split.
# [22:02] <jamesr_> if you want to track changes to the spec isn't it better to follow commits on the spec rather than bugs?
# [22:02] <AryehGregor> Unless one side mirrors the other side's discussions in some fashion, which is unlikely to be popular.
# [22:02] <alystair> AryehGregor: thanks
# [22:03] <aho> i see a small rendering glitch with ff4 here
# [22:03] <rubys> All I am asking for is a bug to be reported when a feature is being discussed. Is that so hard? Please don't immediately jump to trying to subvert this by saying a bug could be opened after the fact.
# [22:03] <aho> looks like the logo was rendered a bit too small and then repeated
# [22:03] <AryehGregor> Only for features, not for bugs?
# [22:03] <AryehGregor> Or for bugs too? (Presumably excluding trivial editorial bugs like typos.)
# [22:04] <AryehGregor> aho, probably due to viewBox handling; should be fixed in b12.
# [22:04] <AryehGregor> (I filed a bug and they didn't listen to me at first, but eventually they gave in to reason)
# [22:04] <rubys> I am quite OK with excluding trivial editorial bugs. But anything that merits a real discussion should be tracked.
# [22:04] <Hixie> rubys: should i request the opposite? Every time the chairs plan to make a decision that affects the WHATWG spec, the chairs should first open a discussion on the WHATWG list?
# [22:04] <aho> svg is still handled by the w3c, right?
# [22:04] <AryehGregor> aho, yes.
# [22:05] <rubys> Hixie: I have no plans of making a decision that affects the WHATWG spec.
# [22:05] <AryehGregor> Touche.
# [22:05] <aho> thing is... masking is fubar'd and no one noticed it yet :>
# [22:05] <alystair> oh holy it WAS fixed in nightly, having an older copy of safari open while trying to open nightly build just relaunched an older version :)
# [22:05] * AryehGregor awards a point to rubys
# [22:05] <Hixie> rubys: don't be an ass, you know full well that your decisions affect the whatwg spec
# [22:05] * alystair gets to not file a bug report \o/
# [22:05] <AryehGregor> Hixie, he's right, they don't. You can fork them.
# [22:05] <AryehGregor> Which you do sometimes.
# [22:05] <Hixie> he can fork the changes we make because of whatwg feedback too
# [22:05] <alystair> AryehGregor: rubys as in the japanese text addition or the language
# [22:06] <Hixie> but forking isn't good for anyone
# [22:06] <Hixie> so we don't do it
# [22:06] <AryehGregor> No he can't, he's not the editor. He doesn't have commit access to your source.
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: rubys as in the dude in the room by that name.
# [22:06] <AryehGregor> alystair, rubys as in "Ruby, S.", the guy in this channel.
# [22:06] <Hixie> he's the chair, he has more authority over the w3c copy than i do
# [22:06] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, wrong person.
# [22:06] <TabAtkins> Shit, I meant alystair
# [22:06] <Hixie> and he's done it before
# [22:06] <AryehGregor> Hixie, if he changed the W3C copy, your next commit would overwrite it, so he can't make changes directly as long as you're editing the W3C spec.
# [22:06] <AryehGregor> rubys, okay, so you're not distinguishing between bugs and features. I was confused on that point.
# [22:07] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if he changed the w3c copy, my next commit would raise conflicts on my side and i'd be forced to take his change into account.
# [22:07] <AryehGregor> Hixie, regardless, whether or not he can fork it, you are in fact directly changing the W3C copy. That he can change it after the fact (in theory) is beside the point.
# [22:08] <Hixie> rubys: the whatwg and the w3c are working together on this. Unless you're wiling to discuss the decisions you make on the whatwg list, it is completely hypocritical to demand that discussions on the whatwg list also be propagated to the w3c fora.
# [22:08] <AryehGregor> The situation still isn't parallel.
# [22:08] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't understand what not parallle.
# [22:08] <Hixie> parallel.
# [22:08] <aho> is there a w3c svg channel somewhere?
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you're making changes to the W3C spec that the W3C might not want. He is making no changes at all to the WHATWG spec (and indeed couldn't if he wanted to).
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> rubys, personally, while I understand your position, I don't think your suggested policy is reasonable in light of the fact that HTML is being developed jointly by the W3C and WHATWG.
# [22:09] <TabAtkins> aho: Do you know about the w3c network?
# [22:09] <AryehGregor> aho, there's probably one on the W3C's IRC network.
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# [22:10] <TabAtkins> irc.w3.org 6665
# [22:10] <aho> ty
# [22:10] <rubys> AryehGregor: jointly doesn't mean "read the commit logs".
# [22:10] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the reality of the situation is that his decisions _do_ affect the whatwg copy. he might not have technical editing rights but he certainly has practical editing power.
# [22:10] <TabAtkins> Note: most of the time people don't pay attention to the w3c rooms. I look into it once a day if I'm lucky, unless I'm mentioned.
# [22:10] <Sirisian|Work> AryehGregor, It has been done https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=633602 http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=72754
# [22:11] <AryehGregor> rubys, it means that contributions to the shared parts of the spec can come from either place.
# [22:11] <Hixie> AryehGregor: any time the chairs make a normative decision, it affects both specs. it must, else we have to fork, which would be a disaster.
# [22:11] <AryehGregor> rubys, as opposed to requiring that they come from the W3C, regardless of whether they've been discussed in the WHATWG.
# [22:11] <rubys> AryehGregor: if it is discussed and no objections are raised, then I have no issue.
# [22:12] <AryehGregor> rubys, nevertheless, your suggestion places an additional burden on people who prefer using the WHATWG to discuss changes, in that they have to mechanically file a bug report even when the conclusion is foregone.
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# [22:13] <AryehGregor> Of course, it also makes things easier for people who prefer to only follow the W3C.
# [22:13] <AryehGregor> Which is why I understand why you'd suggest it, but you should also understand why I'd disagree.
# [22:14] <rubys> AryehGregor: Let met get this straight: your position is that filing a bug report is unreasonable burden, even if it makes things easier for others.
# [22:14] <rubys> I'll admit that I don't understand that position.
# [22:15] <alystair> Maybe the problem here is that filing a bug report is too arduous a task? :)
# [22:15] <rubys> I'm not trying to put words in your mouth: is that what you really believe? A request to file a bug report on changes that may be worth discussion and/or controverisal is an unreasonable request?
# [22:16] <rubys> ... both specs have a web form. How hard is it?
# [22:16] <Hixie> doing anything is more arduous than not doing it, so it seems trivially obvious that the request to do something when that isn't necessary is unreasonable
# [22:16] <jamesr_> i never file a bug on the whatwg spec, i send an email. if i had to do more than that i'd probably be less likely to provide feedback
# [22:16] <Hixie> but since sam is just ignoring me i'm going to head to lunch. bbl.
# [22:17] <AryehGregor> rubys, it's only a slight burden. However, it's also only a slight burden to ask interested W3C members to follow the commit list.
# [22:17] <AryehGregor> It's a small burden on one side or the other.
# [22:17] <rubys> If you were coding to a spec that was changing out from beneath you without any forewarning, you might have a different perspective on this topic.
# [22:17] <AryehGregor> I am coding tests to a spec that's changing out from beneath me without any forewarning.
# [22:18] <AryehGregor> That's why I follow the commit list.
# [22:18] <jamesr_> why on earth would you code to a spec without following changes to the spec?
# [22:18] <jamesr_> nobody does that
# [22:18] <AryehGregor> Otherwise my tests become wrong.
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# [22:18] <AryehGregor> Trying to follow only the discussion fora is dangerous in any event, since you could easily miss a change in the noise, or a change might have only been discussed long before or in some place you aren't following, or whatever.
# [22:19] <AryehGregor> I was already following public-html and whatwg when I started writing my tests, but I signed up to the commit list anyway because that was the only way to be fairly sure.
# [22:19] <rubys> I would think that giving people a heads up would make sense, but in any case, it has been asserted that I am not clear at times. I have made my request. It is just a request. But let me know if it is not clear.
# [22:19] <AryehGregor> I believe you're clear.
# [22:19] <jamesr_> it is unclear who (if anybody) would benefit from your proposal
# [22:19] <AryehGregor> But one further thing: if the issue is implementers being surprised by spec changes, it would help if you could name some.
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# [22:20] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I think your suggestion is understandable, but I respectfully disagree.
# [22:20] <tw2113> you don't see that said online frequently
# [22:21] <tw2113> kudos AryehGregor
# [22:21] <TabAtkins> I respectfully disagree.
# [22:21] <rubys> AryehGregor: A consequence of that is that you will not get clear answers to whether or not features like atob are in or out until a request comes to yank them.
# [22:21] <jamesr_> rubys: i think you are trying to solve problems for people that don't exist (people that care about changes in the spec but do not follow changes in the spec)
# [22:21] <AryehGregor> You respectfully disagree that respectful disagreement is infrequently seen online, or with the kudos, or with my respectful disagreement, or all of the above, or something else entirely?
# [22:22] <TabAtkins> Some of the above.
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> rubys, there's never a clear answer. Someone could always come along later and ask for it to be yanked, even if a bug was filed in the W3C.
# [22:22] <rubys> jamesr_: the email I got was from a person that does exist, they mentioned the changes by giving the URIs of the commits and asked where these changes had been discussed.
# [22:22] <jamesr_> rubys: who was it?
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> If it's dropped, fine, it's dropped.
# [22:22] <tw2113> i the fact it was even said AryehGregor
# [22:22] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, you know he can't answer that.
# [22:23] <jamesr_> i'd like to know what process they were expecting to see how that could be addressed
# [22:23] <zewt> (I havn't been following spec commits, but it's not unreasonable for commit logs to include URLs to mailing list discussions, just as they often contain bug ticket numbers; FWIW)
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# [22:23] <AryehGregor> Hey, wait a second, did the HTMLWG's charter expire last December 31? http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter
# [22:24] <rubys> AryehGregor: it will be extended shortly.
# [22:25] <AryehGregor> But we've technically been operating without a charter for well over a month. Amusing.
# [22:25] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Far from unusual in W3C land
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# [22:25] <AryehGregor> At what point will it become possible to include new features in some other HTMLWG draft, like HTML6? The more features get cut, the more pressing the need is for such a draft.
# [22:26] <rubys> Dug up the email. here was the commit: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Feb/0005.html
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# [22:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: When there's a charter for it
# [22:28] <AryehGregor> When will there or could there be a charter?
# [22:28] <AryehGregor> (Why do we even need charters anyway?)
# [22:28] <rubys> There could be one now. But the reality is that we don't yet have a hard feature freeze on HTML5.
# [22:28] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: When the AC votes there should be a charter for it, probably after the WG asks to have it added
# [22:29] <AryehGregor> Fascinating.
# [22:29] <alystair> is there a nice diagram explaining this whole process
# [22:29] <AryehGregor> There's a lengthy document about it.
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Possibly multiple ones.
# [22:30] <AryehGregor> Okay, well, I'm off for the day. Bye. Nice speaking to you, rubys.
# [22:30] <rubys> AryehGregor: likewise
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# [22:31] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I assume the point of the charter is that a group doesn't get together under the premise that it will develop cool RDF technology and end up with a (non-RDF) specification for rating porn
# [22:31] <jgraham> Or something
# [22:31] <jgraham> This doesn't ever seem like a particular risk to me, so maybe I am missing something
# [22:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: But a specification for rating porn would be more useful on the web than RDF.
# [22:32] <jgraham> gsnedders:I can see that it would certainly have a broader market
# [22:33] <jgraham> (in the event that something like that did happen, I imagine it would be possible to put the brakes on a group in a post-hoc fashion)
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# [22:34] <aho> i really wonder why no one added source/target rectangle stuff for backgrounds in css
# [22:34] <aho> would make working with sprites a lot easier
# [22:34] <jgraham> (but maybe when Serious People representing Real Companies that make Big Money are involved, one has to replace common sense with buracracy)
# [22:35] <aho> on a second thought... nevermind. i hate sprites. i want resource packages (not the kind proposed by limi though) :>
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# [22:37] <TabAtkins> aho: http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/
# [22:37] <TabAtkins> But yes, resource packages, or improvements to network architecture, are even better.
# [22:38] <TabAtkins> SPDY makes it not-painful to request a hundred tiny images.
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# [22:39] <aho> never heard of media fragments before :o
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# [22:39] <aho> and yea, spdy is great
# [22:39] <TabAtkins> Not implemented yet, but CSS chunked plans to add a direct spriting mechanism in favor of just pointing to Media Fragments.
# [22:39] <aho> i don't like the current resource packages draft thing though. zip is awful for this
# [22:41] <aho> what should theoretically work (right now!) are svg(z) files with b64-inlined images... each in its own id'd viewbox... and then you reference them by id in your css file
# [22:41] <aho> havent tried this yet though
# [22:41] <aho> but it should work... theoretically... but i kinda doubt it works good enough to be useful :>
# [22:41] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
# [22:43] <alystair> so this would be to replace the current css sprite techniques?
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> If by "sprite technique" you mean using background-position and sizing hacks, yes.
# [22:43] <aho> what i don't like about zip is the trailing index... that's just silly for this use case. i also don't think we need a standard format for this. what we actually need is a format which can be easily created with standard libraries
# [22:44] <aho> but the basic idea of RPs is great
# [22:45] <alystair> what does SPDY stand for
# [22:45] <TabAtkins> http://www.chromium.org/spdy
# [22:46] <aho> i also wish mozilla hadn't killed jng
# [22:47] <aho> emulated it with svgz: http://kaioa.com/b/1102/svgjng/index.html
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# [22:47] <aho> use opera
# [22:47] <aho> <:
# [22:48] <aho> unfortunately svgs renderers currently dont agree on how to handle masking
# [22:48] <zewt> aho: the trailing index for zip is annoying when "streaming" zips, but all in all for things like packages zip is good enough and using another format isn't worth it, in my experience
# [22:49] <TabAtkins> aho: What's the benefit of JNG?
# [22:49] <aho> this demo relies on sRGB behavior (opera, inkscape, illustrator, safari [iOS, windows], ie9)
# [22:49] <zewt> i like zip a lot, just because it's such a simple, well-understood format
# [22:49] <aho> TabAtkins, it's a jpg/png mashup format
# [22:49] <aho> png32 is usually way too big
# [22:49] <TabAtkins> PNG is lossless, right?
# [22:49] <aho> as you can see i can easily save 75-80% of the file size without any noticable visible differences
# [22:49] <aho> yes
# [22:50] <TabAtkins> So what's the benefit over just using jpg?
# [22:50] <alystair> wow that's really impresive
# [22:50] <aho> transparency
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# [22:50] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
# [22:50] <alystair> alpha blending :)
# [22:50] <alystair> there was a way to hack it forever, but using flash :P
# [22:50] <aho> http://kaioa.com/b/1011/jng_decision_matrix.svgz
# [22:50] <aho> :>
# [22:50] <alystair> you could utilize flash to generate simple jpg+alpha files
# [22:50] <alystair> making TINY files
# [22:51] <TabAtkins> Our WebP format hits that niche too
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# [22:51] <alystair> also totally unrelated to all this is the animated png fiasco
# [22:52] <aho> that's related actually
# [22:52] <alystair> next thing you tell me is that svg is the solution as well ? :)
# [22:52] <aho> moz wont implement jng because they hate the mng/jng people :>
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> It's silly that we ended up with 3 major formats, each with a useful ability that the others can't do.
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> PNG = full alpha, GIF = animation, JPEG = compression
# [22:53] <aho> alystair, well in that demo above i used svgz for truecolor+alpha images
# [22:53] <alystair> actually gif is sort of lacking in smart animation department
# [22:53] <TabAtkins> Hm, I need to do some testing with list-style-images...
# [22:53] <zewt> heh yeah, anyone designing a new format needs to make sure that it's a complete superset of the features of the three existing formats (well, the features that are used, not the useless, legacy features)
# [22:53] <alystair> I actually use png sprites + js to create really slick animations
# [22:53] <alystair> although an svg alternative would be much less hackish if it ever comes to fruitation
# [22:54] <aho> TabAtkins, but there isn't alpha support in WebP yet, is it?
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> I've used SVG+SMIL to do animated sprites in the three good rendering engines.
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> aho: I dunno.
# [22:54] <TabAtkins> I assumed there was?
# [22:55] <aho> alystair, the color space issue needs to be resolved first... right now it only works with about 50% of the implementations :/
# [22:55] <aho> it was planned from the beginning, but so far they havent added it yet
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# [22:55] <aho> to my knowledge, that is
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# [22:56] <aho> alystair, to make matters worse it only works with those implementations which did it *WRONG* :>
# [22:56] <aho> (but sRGB makes a whole lot more sense, you see)
# [22:56] <alystair> alpha blending + full color + compression + ease of animation = big win for designers
# [22:56] <zewt> heh just crashed ff3 with google books
# [22:57] <aho> well, i'm really annoyed that no one (except for konqueror) supports jng
# [22:57] <alystair> zewt: Do not open the Necronomicon in FF3 :)
# [22:57] <aho> it's such a simple format
# [22:57] <TabAtkins> aho: WebP doesn't have transparency yet, but it's planned for a future update.
# [22:57] <aho> if you got the code for png and jpg, you got >99% of the code you need for jng
# [22:58] <TabAtkins> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/09/webp-new-image-format-for-web.html
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# [22:59] <jgraham> Jesus, are people *still* going on about the MNG thing. It was like *ten years ago* people
# [22:59] <jgraham> Get over it already
# [22:59] <aho> jgraham, eh... people still need lossy rgba images
# [22:59] <zewt> webp doesn't seem like a very serious format at all, when i looked over it
# [22:59] <aho> no one wants to waste >300kb for one relatively small image
# [22:59] <alystair> webp doesn't seem to provide enough advantages
# [23:00] <alystair> no demos of alphablending
# [23:00] <alystair> just another jpg replacement?
# [23:00] <aho> +alpha (eventually)
# [23:00] <zewt> that is, it seems like it's trying to do a very few things, with no attempt to overlap the broader functionality of a general-purpose file format
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# [23:00] <aho> jgraham, check this demo (with opera): http://kaioa.com/b/1102/svgjng/index.html
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# [23:01] <aho> you can save a lot of bytes if you go lossy
# [23:01] <zewt> at least, from what I remember from looking it over a while back--my impression was that it was too narrowly-focused to justify adding a new image format into the wild
# [23:02] <aho> zewt, well you get it basically for free (if you support webm, that is)
# [23:02] <zewt> new file formats are never free :)
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# [23:02] <zewt> (eg. support in non-browser applications)
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# [23:04] <zewt> aho: reusing the same underlying compression algorithm is a win, of course, just like PNG making use of deflate which everyone is already using
# [23:06] <aho> jng = png+jpg (literally). my svgz workaround = deflated b64'd jpg|png + jpg|png
# [23:09] <aho> even Flash got a lossly translucent image format... why cant we have one in browsers? :l
# [23:09] <zewt> webp's image size limitations are much smaller than jpeg's, which is bad
# [23:09] <aho> 65k?
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# [23:09] <zewt> iirc webp is 16k and jpeg is 64k, which matters when you get to print-size stuff
# [23:09] <zewt> (not sure offhand what PNG's is)
# [23:10] <aho> 64k
# [23:10] <aho> i think :>
# [23:10] <zewt> 16k is more than enough for images on the web, but no new, modern image format being released into the wild should be designed *only* for images on the web
# [23:10] <zewt> even if that's the underlying drive for making it
# [23:11] <jgraham> In other news, it seems everyone ignored the suggestion to collect some data before working out a "solution" to the delayed script compilation thing
# [23:12] <jgraham> We evidently need to do a "how do I make good solutions to problems" fire drill
# [23:12] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Just tell everyone they're wrong.
# [23:12] <zewt> i ran a quick, dumb benchmark on Chrome: a 40-meg script with a lot of small functions took 6 seconds to parse; i didn't bother posting it since I thought there must already be lots of good compilation-time benchmarks out there
# [23:12] <zewt> (er, parse+compile+execute)
# [23:12] <zewt> (too much conflation of "parse" in that thread, heh)
# [23:15] <jgraham> zewt: That is literally the only data I have seen so far
# [23:15] <zewt> heh
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# [23:15] <jgraham> and it is hardly enough to draw any conclusions from :)
# [23:15] <zewt> yeah, that's another reason I didn't post it
# [23:16] <zewt> runtime of a script with a bunch of "function f12345() { a(); b(); c(); d(); e(); }" statements isn't exactly a real-world benchmark
# [23:16] <jgraham> And I think you are wrong; there aren't any good (or at least widely used) benchmarks
# [23:16] <jgraham> For pre-execution time
# [23:17] <zewt> it would be nice if someone could track down the Google dev who implemented the comments hack, and ask *specifically* what the target mobile hardware was in mind for that
# [23:17] <zewt> because it might well have been for older mobile devices with old, slow javascript parsers, and not even be relevant on eg. current Android browsers running V8, etc
# [23:18] <Philip`> AryehGregor: "-f" is easy to find - just run "perldoc -f -f"
# [23:18] <zewt> rather hard to google for, though :)
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# [23:25] <Philip`> zewt: You don't need Google, you just need perldoc
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# [23:26] <zewt> i can't stand perldoc; but I can't stand perl either, so that's okay
# [23:26] <Philip`> (Also you probably need the camel book)
# [23:26] <zewt> in general I try to avoid all languages $that $make $me $feel $like $I'm $programming $in $basic
# [23:27] <aho> i started with basic
# [23:27] <aho> the kind with numbers at the start of each line
# [23:27] <Moo-_> zewt: how did you feel when jquery introduced $?
# [23:27] <aho> lol :D
# [23:27] <zewt> i havn't used jquery; i intend to try it
# [23:27] <Moo-_> aho: http://www.oocities.com/KindlyRat/GWBASIC.html
# [23:27] <TabAtkins> jquery and php probably qualify as the most used languages on the web.
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# [23:28] <aho> Moo-_, i don't miss those days .)
# [23:28] <TabAtkins> So I'm just following proven standards. ^_^
# [23:28] <zewt> currently most of my stuff is in prototype; i've decided I don't really care for prototype, but not badly enough to rewrite existing products to get rid of it
# [23:28] <Moo-_> a programming language is not good if it lacks SWAP functoin
# [23:28] <zewt> i'm not a fan of php, either, except for simple, quick hacks
# [23:28] <aho> same here
# [23:29] <zewt> moo: a, b = b, a :)
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> [a,b] = [b,a] (in harmony javascript)
# [23:30] <zewt> i sort of lost faith in prototype when I noticed that it, *by default*, silently discards all exceptions raised from AJAX handlers ... and when I pointed it out they asserted that that was perfectly normal
# [23:31] <zewt> sort of one of those "uh, okay *backs away slowly*" things
# [23:31] <aho> prototype extends build-in stuff
# [23:31] <aho> worst lib ever
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> I have no problem with extending built-in stuff.
# [23:31] <zewt> it's a handy model for a lot of things
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> It just means I can't use for-in.
# [23:32] <aho> TabAtkins, it also overwrote build-in functions with its own functions... all of a sudden array.unshift was broken
# [23:32] <aho> AWESOME :V
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> Well that's just stupid.
# [23:32] * Philip` likes for-in
# [23:32] <Philip`> (though not as much as I like for-each-in)
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I'd rather have a proper iterator protocol, which we're getting.
# [23:32] <aho> and i hated prototype ever since :)
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> Not a stupid enumerator protocol.
# [23:33] * Philip` doesn't care about fancy iteration, he just wants to loop over arrays and objects
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> I like looping over expensive or infinite collections.
# [23:34] <zewt> i also pointed out a case where Enumerable#include was horribly slow and offered a fix that made it 80x faster; i didn't even get a reply
# [23:34] <zewt> which means development is either stagnant or they just don't care--neither is something I want to depend on for my code
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# [23:36] * jgraham likes using .map or .forEach to loop over arrays and is annoyed that .map doesn't work on objects
# [23:37] <jgraham> I mean, there is an obvious way it could work
# [23:37] <jgraham> foo.map(function(value, property, foo_obj){})
# [23:37] <jgraham> In the array case property is always an index property
# [23:38] <webr3> really stupid question coming up.. why is window, navigator, pretty much all of section 5 in the HTML specification rather than some "browser context" spec or such like?
# [23:38] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yeah, the correct behavior is for map to give its callback two arguments.
# [23:39] <jgraham> TabAtkins: It does already
# [23:39] <jgraham> Well three actually
# [23:39] <TabAtkins> webr3: Because nobody else wanted to do that.
# [23:39] <webr3> TabAtkin, did anybody ask before / was it discussed previously?
# [23:39] <webr3> +s
# [23:39] <zewt> ... thought about trying to back the script-execution thread up to reexamine the benchmarking question, but ... not feeling quite that masochistic today
# [23:40] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Um. Indeed. So what's the problem? Just that Object doesn't have map in its prototype?
# [23:40] <TabAtkins> webr3: Hixie has certainly tried to get people to take the window spec from him before.
# [23:41] <Philip`> jgraham: I don't like forEach because it breaks 'this' :-(
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# [23:41] <zewt> imagine a world where javascript's "this" handling wasn't braindamaged :|
# [23:42] <zewt> also world peace, holding hands, singing in the streets, etc
# [23:42] <jgraham> Philip`: You can provide an explicit this object
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# [23:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Taht it only works with index propertie
# [23:42] <jgraham> s
# [23:42] <jgraham> webr3: Actually there was an attempt to make window a seperate spec
# [23:42] <jgraham> it was abandonded
# [23:43] <jgraham> In general practicality beats purity and attempts to split out window are generally motivated by purity
# [23:44] <webr3> fair point, i can see that
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# [23:48] <Hixie> a lot of the window stuff ties in really annoyingly closely to things like the html parser
# [23:48] <Hixie> in practice it'd be really hard to split it out
# [23:49] <Hixie> personally i'm a fan of having fewer, larger specs, anyway :-)
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# [23:49] <Hixie> i think we should have a script that merges in DOM Core, DOM Events, DOM Range, Selector API, CSSOM, and so forth, into HTML
# [23:50] <Hixie> (it'd be much harder to merge in SVG, CSS, and MathML because of the way they are written)
# [23:50] <Hixie> i'm not saying these should all be edited by one person, btw
# [23:50] <Hixie> just that there should be a one-page spec somewhere that is the result of merging the text of those specs into one document
# [23:51] <othermaciej> and then, the challenge will be to build a browser that can load it without crashing or hanging
# [23:51] <webr3> lol
# [23:52] <Philip`> Everyone can just use the multipage version of the giant aggregated spec
# [23:52] <othermaciej> and it will be about as useful as putting all the code for a browser engine in a single source file
# [23:52] <webr3> I like both, smaller specs w/ seperation of concerns, and one big overview (or view) of the whole lot
# [23:52] <webr3> hixie, i see what you mean about really hard to split out though, probably impracticle/nigh on impossible to do anyways
# [23:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: i find the one-page spec much more useful than the split specs, but the good thing about doing it as a post-processor operation is that nobody is forced to use it :-)
# [23:53] <Hixie> webr3: it'd be possible given enough time (6 months to a year probably), but impractical for sure.
# Session Close: Sat Feb 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)