/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Feb 12 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <aho> is there some kind of overview which lists all css values which are inherited?
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  8. # [00:10] <aho> gonna script that myself eh? :f
  9. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> I think putting CSSOM into HTML is a fine idea.
  10. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> It lives in a weird area right now.
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  12. # [00:17] <ttepasse> Shouldn't the XML Specs or XML5 also integrated into HTML, given the XHTML-Serialisation?
  13. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Yes, for those that actually care about the web.
  14. # [00:17] <ttepasse> Namespaces!
  15. # [00:17] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  16. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Namespaces are already handled in HTML, so shrug.
  17. # [00:18] <ttepasse> I'm just trolling. ;)
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  21. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Oh man, Google Instant is great for putting together data:urls. You can see the page as you build it!
  22. # [00:23] <zewt> heh, i turned instant off almost ... instantly, since it was too annoying
  23. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Really? I found it pretty cool, since it usually means I have literally 0 wait for the page to load.
  24. # [00:23] <zewt> like when you're typing a word, and when it updates mid-word as you're typing and you see the thing you want flash by, but when you stop typing the word it updates again and it's gone
  25. # [00:24] <zewt> i still need to find a script to kill the search completion ... it broke my search habits utterly
  26. # [00:24] <zewt> which i still havn't recovered from
  27. # [00:25] <zewt> (i do a lot of site: searches, pulling the text out of browser history, and the completion dropdown breaks browser form history)
  28. # [00:26] <Hixie> i'm assuming tab is talking about chrome instant, not google instant :-)
  29. # [00:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: btw, you can use the live dom viewer to make data: urls -- click the Rendering link to get a data: URL of the current page
  30. # [00:26] <zewt> i havn't seen that yet ... turned it on in chrome (after it again updated without permission :) but didn't see anything
  31. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Yes, though I also love google instant
  32. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, cool.
  33. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> zewt: With Instant on, you should see chrome guess and preload pages as you type in the omnibar
  34. # [00:27] <zewt> i only use chrome for debugging, though, don't have much in history
  35. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Oh jeez, the logs went super-yellow.
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  44. # [00:37] <Hixie> heycam|awaytil14: yt?
  45. # [00:38] <Hixie> i wonder if he means 4pm PST, March 4th, April...?
  46. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Isn't heycam in NZ?
  47. # [00:38] <Hixie> i thought he moved to the bay area when he joined mozilla
  48. # [00:39] <Hixie> i could be vastly mistaken
  49. # [00:39] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  50. # [00:39] <gavin> I think he was in MV for a few weeks but is still based in NZ permanently
  51. # [00:40] <Hixie> k
  52. # [00:40] <Hixie> well then i've no idea what "4" will mean :-)
  53. # [00:41] <jamesr_> 14
  54. # [00:41] <jamesr_> so i'd guess 2pm?
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  56. # [00:42] <Hixie> oh "til 14" not "till 4", my bad
  57. # [00:42] <Hixie> maybe he means feb 14th
  58. # [00:47] <Hixie> abarth: do you know what's going on with web sockets these days?
  59. # [00:47] <abarth> Hixie: more or less
  60. # [00:47] <Hixie> any progress?
  61. # [00:47] <abarth> the working group seems to be closing in on a spec
  62. # [00:47] <abarth> but othermaciej has said that he can't live with one aspect of the spec (related to masking traffic to avoid confusing proxies)
  63. # [00:48] <abarth> the IETF doesn't seem set up to handle that sort of situation
  64. # [00:49] <Hixie> did they ever simplify the framing at all?
  65. # [00:49] <abarth> they've shuffled around a couple bits in the framing
  66. # [00:49] <abarth> but its largely unchanged
  67. # [00:49] <Hixie> k
  68. # [00:50] <Hixie> i guess if it's getting stable i should get some time with ian to make sure the api spec is aligned correctly
  69. # [00:50] <abarth> that's probably worth doing
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  72. # [00:51] <abarth> pat seems excited about being almost done (E.g., http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg06302.html )
  73. # [00:51] <abarth> which i take to be a good sign
  74. # [00:52] <franksalim> Hixie: any hope of adding TypedArray to the API, now that there are binary data frames in the protocol?
  75. # [00:53] <Hixie> not until the binary stuff in JS is solid
  76. # [00:53] <Hixie> last i heard it still had major issues like exposing the platform endianness
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  78. # [00:53] <Hixie> but as soon as the infrastructure is there, yeah
  79. # [00:54] <franksalim> Hixie: ok, thanks
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  81. # [00:56] <franksalim> So Typed Array is good enough for XHR but not WebSocket?
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  83. # [00:57] <Hixie> anne and I presumably have different thresholds for how stable something has to be before using it :-)
  84. # [00:57] <Hixie> i've been burnt too many times using stuff that wasn't stable
  85. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Using "till" for "until" is fundamentally wrong.
  86. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Is what's currently in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing capable of being hooked into for you? I can provide better hooks if necessary.
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  88. # [01:01] <Hixie> hooked into for what?
  89. # [01:02] <Hixie> i lack context
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  91. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> drawing svg without proper dimensions into canvas.
  92. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> bug 11488
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  94. # [01:10] <Hixie> oh, right
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  97. # [01:11] <Hixie> looks ok. so I can just reference the intrinsic dimensions, reference CSS Image, and be done right? as far as sizing goes?
  98. # [01:11] <Hixie> s/just reference/just say to use/
  99. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> And mention that the default object size is the canvas dimensions.
  100. # [01:11] <Hixie> k
  101. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> Those are the only two inputs, so you should be good otherwise.
  102. # [01:11] <Hixie> sounds plausible
  103. # [01:11] <Hixie> i'll let you know when i actually do it :-)
  104. # [01:11] <TabAtkins> k, no problem.
  105. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Just working in that section now, so I wanted to bring it up while it was on my mind.
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  108. # [01:15] <Hixie> TabAtkins: cool
  109. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Augh, I'm gradually forgetting how to write.
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  111. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Just let me know when you do add it, so I can make sure the terms are good. Input to the algo is intrinsic dimensions and default object size, output is a CSS View Box with definite dimensions, which SVG is then asked to draw into.
  112. # [01:17] <Hixie> by hand or at all?
  113. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> By hand.
  114. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> I can write fine on a whiteboard with markers, but pen-on-paper is gradually slipping away.
  115. # [01:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i added a link to this irc log in the bug, hopefully i'll see myself telling you that i'll try to remember to do so when i red this sentence
  116. # [01:18] <TabAtkins> Haha, kk.
  117. # [01:18] <Hixie> read, even
  118. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Dammit, of course IE9 is the one person to implement the stupid algorithm.
  119. # [01:20] <TabAtkins> Which everyone else does sanely but wrong-by-spec.
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  121. # [01:21] <zewt> "damn you, IE, stop following the specs"
  122. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> They should stop following stupid specs that I disagree with. ^_^
  123. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Namely, the sizing algorithm for images used in list-style-image, which is singularly different from how images are sized everywhere else in one specific detail.
  124. # [01:22] <Hixie> if there's no compat need and everyone else does it the same different sane way, i say change it
  125. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I'm writing an email for right now.
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  127. # [01:25] <Hixie> "Selectors doesn't define if the parent of an element that is :active or :hover is also in that state."
  128. # [01:26] <Hixie> isn't it about time we defined that
  129. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Complain about it on the list. fantasai refuses to acknowledge that arbitrary elements are allowed to be :hover or :active.
  130. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> Or just define it, whatever.
  131. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> We both know the right definitions.
  132. # [01:27] <Hixie> i actually don't remember if the ancestor chain or the "z-index chain" (for lack of a better term) or neither or both is affected by :hover and :active
  133. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> What's a z-index chain? The list of elements underneath the pointer?
  134. # [01:28] <Hixie> yeah
  135. # [01:28] <Hixie> not sure what the right term is
  136. # [01:28] <Hixie> i know that ain't it
  137. # [01:28] <aho> browsers go with the ancestor chain... this allows you to do those menu thingies
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  139. # [01:28] <aho> e.g. some horizontal menu which expands downwards
  140. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Yup. The right answer is "ancestor chain". Everyone who would receive a mouseover event.
  141. # [01:29] <Hixie> k
  142. # [01:30] <Hixie> then y'all in the csswg should spec that :-P
  143. # [01:30] <Hixie> anyway on the other issue, i'm overriding selectors in the html spec
  144. # [01:30] <Hixie> and putting in a willful violation
  145. # [01:30] <Hixie> first one that refers to a spec whose editor list includes me :-P
  146. # [01:31] <aho> http://whatwg.pastebin.com/P7SNejxU <- css2 inherited properties :>
  147. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> data:text/html;charset=utf-8,%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20id%3Dfoo%3E%0A%20%20%3Cdiv%20id%3Dbar%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%23foo%3Ahover%20%7B%20background%3A%20blue%3B%20%7D%0A%23bar%3Ahover%20%7B%20background%3A%20green%3B%20%7D%0A%23bar%20%7B%0A%20%20position%3A%20absolute%3B%0A%20%20top%3A%2050px%3B%0A%20%20left%3A%2050px%3B%0A%7D%0Adiv%20%7B%0A%20%20width%3A%20100px%3B%0A%20%20height%3A%20100px%3B%0A%20%20bor
  148. # [01:31] <aho> i like how "no, see prose" basically means "yes" :>
  149. # [01:32] <aho> (text-shadow and text-decoration)
  150. # [01:32] <Philip`> TabAtkins: That looks truncated
  151. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/833
  152. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> aho: They're not inherited. They give the appearance of being so, though. You don't want to actually inherit, because then things would get drawn twice.
  153. # [01:36] <aho> sooo... they aren't inherited from an implementation standpoint, but from an author's standpoint?
  154. # [01:36] <aho> kinda confusing :>
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  176. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> aho: Well, that's the way it has to work. You don't want "<p>foo <b>bar</b> baz</p><style>p,b{ text-shadow: 5px 5px rgba(255,0,0,.5); }</style> to draw two shadows on "bar".
  177. # [02:41] <aho> but with p{ text-shadow: 5px 5px rgba(255,0,0,.5); } the b would be also text-shadow'd :>
  178. # [02:43] <aho> ahm... well, color is inherited... but that doesn't mean that bar is rendered twice, right?
  179. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> text drawing is already defined to happen only once.
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  181. # [02:44] <aho> and text-shadow isn't text rendering?
  182. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> It's easier to handle inheritance in the special way than try and re-solve the problem of "draw this only once" for shadows and decorations.
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  185. # [02:45] <aho> but from a css author's point of view it is exactly like inherit isn't it?
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  188. # [02:45] <TabAtkins> Sure.
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  191. # [02:47] <aho> well, that makes things easier
  192. # [02:47] <aho> :>
  193. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> Just note that things like the 'inherit' keyword won't act like its inherited.
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  196. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> Ooh, IE9 supports vh/vw/vm, and rem! Yay!
  197. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> Also ch!
  198. # [02:48] <aho> sooo... with that example above... b{text-shadow:inherit} wouldnt work?
  199. # [02:48] * TabAtkins loves new units.
  200. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> aho: It would do something unexpected (create two shadows on "bar").
  201. # [02:48] <aho> oh... :)
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  214. # [03:25] <deane> MikeSmith: I only chatted to doublec for a few minutes. There was a guy sitting opposite him, don't know who he was
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  216. # [03:31] <deane> MikeSmith: I missed roc yesterday as he had just left for the weekend. It was roc that I wanted to chat to. I met roc about three years ago, he told me Hixie was a genius (but I already knew that :) ).
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  224. # [03:53] <deane> MikeSmith: I've been out of the openweb scene for a while, getting back involved now. Wanting to help you guys out. I have a few good ideas that I'll send in to the group. I have also recruited a friend of mine to the project. He's a security, JavaScript, network, php, and dom expert. I'm giving him a html5 101, starting with Simon's elements/content model site. He's a cool guy and I think he'll be a good help to all. We both need to read the spec
  225. # [03:53] <deane> though. I haven't read the spec for about 18 months, sorry :( So need to catch up with what's been going on.
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  243. # [06:30] <annevk> hmm
  244. # [06:30] <annevk> WebKit and Opera support event.cancelBubble
  245. # [06:30] <annevk> and Gecko throws when accessing type of a newly created event
  246. # [06:31] <annevk> gonna assume that is a bug
  247. # [06:32] <annevk> Gecko and Opera support "events" as createEvent() argument...
  248. # [06:33] <annevk> eventPhase defaults to 0, 1, or 2 depending on where you look
  249. # [06:33] <annevk> (there's no constant for 0)
  250. # [06:34] <zewt> dom events and a puppy are about as much fun as a puppy
  251. # [06:34] <annevk> DOM3Events doesn't define any of this of course
  252. # [06:35] <annevk> not that my spec does not have bugs in this area, but I'm not done yet
  253. # [06:36] <zewt> if there was one annoying thing i could retroactively fix with dom events, it'd be the annoying AT_TARGET phase
  254. # [06:36] <annevk> go on...
  255. # [06:37] <zewt> specifically, the fact that you can't attach a capturing event listener onto an element, cancel the event from that handler, and have it prevent delivering the event to non-capturing handlers on the same event
  256. # [06:37] <annevk> well this is hilarious
  257. # [06:37] <zewt> (since it's already in AT_TARGET at that point, it's too late)
  258. # [06:37] <zewt> but ... many years too late to do anything about that. heh
  259. # [06:37] <annevk> once you do initEvent with the empty string event.type can be the empty string in Gecko
  260. # [06:38] <annevk> isn't that what stopPropagation() does?
  261. # [06:39] <zewt> as i recall my troubles with it, that only works if you do it while you're still in CAPTURING_PHASE
  262. # [06:39] <zewt> eg. if you're capturing from something higher up on the dom heirarchy
  263. # [06:39] <annevk> right
  264. # [06:40] <annevk> if you want to prevent it from reaching event listeners on the same current target you use stopImmediatePropagation
  265. # [06:40] <zewt> don't recall that method--will need to look it up
  266. # [06:40] <zewt> is that events level 3?
  267. # [06:40] <annevk> yeah
  268. # [06:41] <zewt> that's probably why i havn't heard of it, then
  269. # [06:41] <zewt> nice to know there's a way to deal with that coming down the pipeline eventually
  270. # [06:41] <annevk> i haven't actually checked whether it's implemented yet, but I've defined it and I'm guessing it works already
  271. # [06:42] <zewt> as far as the tech field goes, dealing with web standards must be very near the top in terms of things requiring patience, heh
  272. # [06:42] <annevk> so WebKit throws a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR for initEvent with the empty string
  273. # [06:42] <zewt> "alright, that's defined, we'll be able to use it in 3-5 years"
  274. # [06:44] <annevk> hmm indeed
  275. # [06:44] <annevk> only WebKit seems to have stopImmediatePropagation
  276. # [06:44] <annevk> lame
  277. # [06:45] <annevk> meanwhile Opera throws on document.createEvent("event")
  278. # [06:45] <annevk> case-sensitive!
  279. # [06:45] <annevk> hah, but not case-sensitive for "htmlevents"
  280. # [06:45] <zewt> i also don't envy you or anyone else dealing with specs for dom events, heh
  281. # [06:46] <zewt> or any API with its, uhh ... colorful history
  282. # [06:46] <annevk> i've done a couple now
  283. # [06:46] <annevk> it has its moments
  284. # [06:47] <annevk> and as long as I don't work on it days on end it's quite enjoyable
  285. # [06:47] <zewt> moments of sudden, painful hair loss
  286. # [06:47] <annevk> heh
  287. # [06:49] <annevk> whoa
  288. # [06:49] <annevk> empty string totally works in Gecko
  289. # [06:49] <zewt> heh
  290. # [06:49] <annevk> you can even register event handlers for it
  291. # [06:49] <zewt> reminds me of when, in an old linux kernel, i found i was able to map memory onto NULL, and make NULL a valid pointer
  292. # [06:49] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/834
  293. # [06:49] <annevk> that's wild
  294. # [06:50] <annevk> very silly that they throw for it before invoking initEvent then
  295. # [06:50] <annevk> otherwise you could just skip initEvent and go straight to finish
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  342. # [10:55] <hasta84> Hey everyone...
  343. # [10:55] <hasta84> Anyone here interested in p2p / device specs?
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  403. # [18:00] <deane> Anyone know of a webpage (or whatever) that details why we can't have any elements within <p> ? I just want to understand why we can't allow elements within <p>, that's all. Sorry, I'm sure this has been discussed many times :/ Any pointers? :)
  404. # [18:02] <erlehmann> deane, <p> allows phrasing content. what is your problem with that?
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  406. # [18:03] <erlehmann> deane, read <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#phrasing-content>
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  455. # [20:32] <deane> erlehmann: sweet, thanks man, thanks for the link, I'll check that out. I was actually thinking of stuff like: <p><table>, plus, I misread an article about it :\ Never mind :)
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  457. # [20:35] <deane> erlehmann: I was thinking of block, sorry
  458. # [20:36] <Philip`> If a site says
  459. # [20:36] <Philip`> <meta charset="UTF-8"> <meta http-equiv="Content-type" content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" />
  460. # [20:36] <Philip`> should it be invalid?
  461. # [20:37] <Philip`> Hrm... The spec says "There can only be one character encoding declaration in the document."
  462. # [20:38] <Philip`> but the normative requirement is just "There must not be more than one meta element with a charset attribute per document."
  463. # [20:38] <erlehmann> deane, putting block content into <p> *will* come back at you as soon as you try styling the mess.
  464. # [20:38] <Philip`> and it looks like that document would have two encoding declarations without violating that
  465. # [20:38] * Philip` wonders if he's missing anything
  466. # [20:39] <erlehmann> Philip`, since both are synonyms, this must surely be wrong!
  467. # [20:39] <zewt> it's normal enough to specify the same thing in different ways for compatibility, so long as they don't have different values, though
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  469. # [20:40] <zewt> similarly, having both a content-type http-equiv and a real Content-Type HTTP header
  470. # [20:40] <Philip`> "If the document contains a meta element with an http-equiv attribute in the Encoding declaration state, then the document must not contain a meta element with the charset attribute present."
  471. # [20:41] <Philip`> Ah, that's what I was missing
  472. # [20:41] <erlehmann> :3
  473. # [20:42] <deane> thanks for all your hard work, guys :) you're doing well
  474. # [20:44] <Philip`> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=589 - ah, and that's the validator bug I encountered
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  517. # [23:34] <Smylers> Philip`: I was surprised when that bug e-mailed me.
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  519. # [23:35] <Smylers> I have no recollection of raising it, and even when I read you mentioning the issue on IRC earlier I didn't remember encountering it before.
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  524. # Session Close: Sun Feb 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)