/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-13 / end

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  76. # [04:08] <mpilgrim> gsnedders: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py gives a traceback upon uploading basically any HTML file
  77. # [04:09] <mpilgrim> i promised a guy last october that i would tell you, so i have now fulfilled my promise
  78. # [04:17] <Dashiva> Faster turnaround than most bug reporting systems
  79. # [04:21] <gsnedders> mpilgrim: Yeah, I've since last August or so about that bug. :)
  80. # [04:21] <gsnedders> *I've known
  81. # [04:22] <zewt> usual result of most bug reporting systems too, then :P
  82. # [04:24] <zewt> better than getting no response, then two years later getting a mass batch update saying "please re-test this bug from scratch or it'll be closed in a week", which seems to be the more common result of open trackers nowadays
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  172. # [12:21] <jgraham> https://github.com/msporny/dna/
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  175. # [12:23] <annevk> from DOM3Events
  176. # [12:23] <Philip`> https://github.com/msporny/dna/network
  177. # [12:23] <annevk> "
  178. # [12:23] <annevk> As the final step of the event dispatch, for reasons of backwards compatibility, the implementation must reset the event object's internal-propagation and default-action-prevention states. This ensures that an event object may be properly dispatched multiple times while also allowing to prevent the event objects propagation or default actions prior to the event dispatch."
  179. # [12:24] <annevk> shouldn't that happen before dispatching?
  180. # [12:24] <annevk> otherwise the defaultPrevented attribute would be affected
  181. # [12:24] <annevk> which seems like something you do not want happening
  182. # [12:24] <annevk> i was also wondering
  183. # [12:25] <annevk> if you dispatch an event from an event
  184. # [12:25] <annevk> when exactly do you get that event back in script
  185. # [12:26] <annevk> is "dispatching an event" a single atomic operation even though it can effect itself? (e.g. by removing event listeners)
  186. # [12:28] <annevk> nothing much in the "events loop" section about this
  187. # [12:28] <annevk> I guess I should write some code to figure it out
  188. # [12:33] <annevk> yeah
  189. # [12:33] <annevk> so http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/835 shows it is not an atomic operation
  190. # [12:33] <annevk> (once you click on the dots)
  191. # [12:34] <annevk> on the other hand, I guess it makes sense and does not require any special wording...
  192. # [12:39] <annevk> it's "simply" an atomic operation that invoke itself again
  193. # [12:39] <annevk> or something like that
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  226. # [16:43] <annevk> back home, time to relax :)
  227. # [16:43] <annevk> and work on this event stuff some more I guess
  228. # [16:52] <annevk> even what is sort of defined in DOM3Events is not really implemented
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  231. # [17:00] <annevk> Gecko throws for initEvent while that is not allowed
  232. # [17:00] <annevk> in Opera invoking initEvent for an event that is being dispatched calls stop propagation somehow on it
  233. # [17:00] <annevk> or something like that
  234. # [17:01] <annevk> I think I will try to go for something "sensible" instead...
  235. # [17:02] <annevk> no modifications allowed while dispatching and no dispatching of an event that is already being dispatched
  236. # [17:02] <annevk> based on a "is dispatching flag"
  237. # [17:03] <annevk> I'll also make the change that allows the empty string as event name, makes everything simpler :)
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  239. # [17:11] <annevk> btw, I had this sort of crazy idea for simpler event creation
  240. # [17:11] <annevk> overload createEvent
  241. # [17:11] <annevk> createEvent would accept an arbitrary number of arguments, and what they represent depends on the string passed to the first
  242. # [17:12] <annevk> so you could do e.g. document.createEvent("Event", "test", false, true)
  243. # [17:12] <annevk> first it creates the event and then calls initEvent with the remaining arguments
  244. # [17:12] <annevk> but maybe the first simplification should be to make initEvent arguments optional
  245. # [17:13] <annevk> so you don't have to pass false/false all the time if you don't want to
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  248. # [17:24] <annevk> smaug____, you okay with shuffling the details of non-interoperable parts of DOM Events?
  249. # [17:25] <annevk> smaug____, trying to figure out how Events work for DOM Core and it seems DOM3Events does not really match reality when it comes to the finer details of event creation, initialization, and dispatching
  250. # [17:25] <smaug____> annevk: kind of busy with other things atm
  251. # [17:26] <annevk> I'll just carry on then and hope you have time to review it some day
  252. # [17:26] <smaug____> I could review later today or tomorrow
  253. # [17:27] <annevk> tomorrow during the day might be nice (you're still in Europe right?) that way I can help out and address issues directly
  254. # [17:28] <smaug____> still in Finland yes
  255. # [17:29] <smaug____> and tomorrow day should be ok
  256. # [17:30] <annevk> cool
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  263. # [17:51] <dglazkov|away> text-overflow-mode: hidden
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  267. # [18:03] <annevk> hmm
  268. # [18:04] <annevk> capture listeners also include AT_TARGET
  269. # [18:04] <annevk> so if you have a single listener attached for both capture and non-capture it'll fire twice during AT_TARGET
  270. # [18:14] <annevk> well, when the target happens to be the node you registered the listener on
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  274. # [18:36] <annevk> hmm
  275. # [18:36] <annevk> if you say inherits
  276. # [18:36] <annevk> does that include indirect inheritance?
  277. # [18:37] <annevk> interface a : b
  278. # [18:37] <annevk> interface c : a
  279. # [18:37] <annevk> can you say that c inherits from b?
  280. # [18:37] * annevk tries to define createEvent
  281. # [18:38] * annevk is going with yes
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  284. # [18:45] <annevk> hmm, in WebKit createEvent is case-sensitive
  285. # [18:45] <annevk> they do support "Events"
  286. # [18:45] <annevk> but not "events"
  287. # [18:46] <annevk> and "HTMLEvents" but not "htmlevents"
  288. # [18:46] <annevk> weird
  289. # [18:46] <annevk> I guess we can still make it case-sensitive then if someone really cared
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  293. # [18:53] <annevk> hmm I guess before people review Ms2ger needs to come online and regen the spec
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  295. # [18:55] <annevk> oh hey, dispatchEvent returns a boolean about canceled behavior; didn't even realize that but it matches the spec's model :)
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  297. # [19:08] <annevk> teehee
  298. # [19:08] <deane> annevk: Hi, I'm using latest version of Opera for my irc client, real nice. Congratulations, You and the team have done a great job with the Opera browser, real nice, keep up the good work :)
  299. # [19:08] <annevk> preventDefault/defaultPrevented and the return value of dispatchEvent are quite the mess
  300. # [19:08] * deane let's annevk get back to his work
  301. # [19:08] <annevk> deane, heh, thanks
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  303. # [19:09] <annevk> I'm mostly playing around and writing down my conclusions :)
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  305. # [19:10] <annevk> if you have a non-cancelable event
  306. # [19:10] <annevk> and you call preventDefault on it
  307. # [19:10] <annevk> and then you check defaultPrevented and the return value of dispatchEvent
  308. # [19:11] <annevk> in Opera: true / false
  309. # [19:11] <annevk> in WebKit: false / true
  310. # [19:11] <annevk> in Gecko: undefined / true
  311. # [19:11] <annevk> I was expecting false / false
  312. # [19:12] <annevk> I mean, if you can't prevent the default (it's non-cancelable), why would any of these indicate otherwise?
  313. # [19:12] <nimbupani> Annevk dont miss ur flight plotting prevent defaults!!!
  314. # [19:12] <annevk> heh, thanks, I'm already back :)
  315. # [19:12] <nimbupani> Wattttt oki
  316. # [19:13] <annevk> you can tell by the gap in the irc-logs when it was :)
  317. # [19:13] <annevk> jumps from 12 to 16 somewhere (OSL airport -> home)
  318. # [19:14] <nimbupani> Hahahahah not sure if its a good thing or bad thing
  319. # [19:14] <nimbupani> Imagine 4 months of such a gap
  320. # [19:14] <annevk> hehe, i'll find out soon enough
  321. # [19:14] <nimbupani> PANDEMONIUM
  322. # [19:14] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@netDHCP-169.keio.w3.org)
  323. # [19:15] <annevk> Pet Shop Boys!
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  326. # [19:16] <deane> yeah, Pet Shop Boys are cool ;)
  327. # [19:21] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  328. # [19:21] <nimbupani> >_>
  329. # [19:23] <deane> annevk: so you don't get a username-style bug report with opera, it's just anonymous? https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
  330. # [19:23] <annevk> yeah
  331. # [19:23] * deane forgot the question mark :/
  332. # [19:23] <annevk> I think there's a volunteer who keeps public records of bugs people filed
  333. # [19:24] <annevk> and I can give you a status update most of the time, but it's not exactly ideal
  334. # [19:24] <annevk> (you get a bug number once you file a bug)
  335. # [19:25] <deane> sweet, just noticed something minor. I'll take a screen shot and file a report later today
  336. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> hmm, "If the document contains a meta element with an http-equiv attribute in the Encoding declaration state, then the document must not contain a meta element with the charset attribute present."
  337. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> that would seem to mean if a <meta charset> occurs in document order before a <meta http-equiv="content-type"…> encoding declaration, then the <meta charset> should be reported as an error
  338. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> which seems wrong
  339. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> UAs use the first one of those they find in document order, right?
  340. # [19:30] <annevk> it doesn't say anything about order there
  341. # [19:30] <annevk> it just says they're mutually exclusive
  342. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know it doesn't mention document order, but that's the case I care about
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  344. # [19:32] <annevk> maybe it should be reworded that if either is present the other cannot be
  345. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
  346. # [19:33] <annevk> or maybe it should be phrased the other way around
  347. # [19:33] <annevk> to encourage people using <meta charset>
  348. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> yeah
  349. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> it also doesn't say its an error to have multiple instances of <meta http-equiv="content-type"…> encoding declarations
  350. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> oh
  351. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> sweet
  352. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/semantics.html#character-encoding-declaration
  353. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> "There can only be one character encoding declaration in the document."
  354. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> hmm
  355. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
  356. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> that's not a normative statement
  357. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> which is exactly the point Philip` was making in http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=589#c1
  358. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> *sigh*
  359. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, but the spec does prefix the bulleted list that statement is in with "The following restrictions apply to character encoding declarations:"
  360. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> guess I should file a bug
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  367. # [19:53] <Philip`> MikeSmith: If the spec says that if you have <meta charset> you mustn't have <meta content-type>, that doesn't imply the validator has to complain about the <meta content-type>
  368. # [19:53] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  369. # [19:54] <Philip`> The document as a whole is invalid and it's the validator's job to point out to authors how best to fix their document
  370. # [19:54] <Philip`> so I wouldn't think the spec needs to change its phrasing
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  372. # [19:55] <annevk> damnit
  373. # [19:55] <annevk> why does <var> cause a link
  374. # [19:55] * annevk summons Ms2ger
  375. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> <var> always causes a link unless you do <var title>.
  376. # [19:57] <annevk> that should really be disabled
  377. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> Yeah, not sure why you'd want <var> to link.
  378. # [19:58] <annevk> I defined the whole cancelable events in the way that makes most sense to me; given the non-interop I suspect this will be fine
  379. # [19:58] <annevk> I think I defined all of the basic interfaces now
  380. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> Philip`: so what would you suggest it should report?
  381. # [19:59] <annevk> guess I'll add CustomEvent as well
  382. # [20:00] <annevk> and then I guess is the rathole that is mutation events
  383. # [20:00] <annevk> and event loops if we are going to make them asynchronous
  384. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> Philip`: UAs use the first character encoding declaration they find and ignore the rest, right?
  385. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess that's undefined
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  387. # [20:02] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I guess it would ideally report a single error pointing to all the encoding declarations and say there should only be one and suggest using <meta charset="{whatever the parser's determined charset was}">
  388. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  389. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> "pointing to all the encoding declarations"
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  391. # [20:03] * asmodai_ is now known as asmodai
  392. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> thing is, we can't really do that
  393. # [20:04] <Philip`> It's not my problem if the validator's designed with the inflexible assumption of a 1:1 correspondence between errors and markup ranges :-)
  394. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> or we could but it would require creating a new mechanism for reporting multiple line numbers and column numbers in a single error message, just for this one case
  395. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> Philip`: it's not an assumption, it's a pragmatic design choice that works well for the vast majority of cases :)
  396. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> but point taken
  397. # [20:05] <Philip`> Browsers should use the first declaration - the parser handles meta elements and if the encoding's currently tentative it sets it to certain
  398. # [20:06] <Philip`> so it'll ignore subsequent declarations
  399. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> OK
  400. # [20:06] <Philip`> (I think)
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  402. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> it not specified that way in the spec at least
  403. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> intentionally not, I would assume
  404. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> oh, or maybe it is
  405. # [20:07] <Philip`> See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html / "A start tag whose tag name is "meta""
  406. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> I need to read the parsing algorithm
  407. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  408. # [20:07] <Philip`> Kind of hard to find if you don't already know that's where the feature is defined :-(
  409. # [20:16] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  413. # [20:19] <annevk> defining CustomEvent took 20 min per Mercurial
  414. # [20:20] <annevk> but it still needs examples and green boxes and such
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  416. # [20:20] <annevk> like everything else...
  417. # [20:21] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  419. # [20:23] <annevk> A, B, and C or D and E
  420. # [20:24] <annevk> the condition is true for ABC or ABDE
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  422. # [20:24] <annevk> is the sentence correct?
  423. # [20:27] <Dashiva> That needs to be more than one sentence
  424. # [20:27] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  425. # [20:28] <annevk> A and B. As well as C or D and E
  426. # [20:28] <annevk> does that work?
  427. # [20:29] <Hixie> use a bulleted list
  428. # [20:29] <Hixie> with a nested list for the or
  429. # [20:31] <annevk> the sentence is
  430. # [20:31] <annevk> whose
  431. # [20:31] <annevk> <b>name</b> is <var>name</var>, <b>listener</b> is <var>listener</var>, and
  432. # [20:31] <annevk> <var>capture</var> is <b>capture</b> or <var>capture</var> is omitted and <b>capture</b> is false,
  433. # [20:32] <annevk> seems kind of overkill to go for a list
  434. # [20:33] <annevk> if Web IDL had some way to say what the default (if any) was for omitted arguments this prose would not be needed
  435. # [20:36] <Dashiva> There should definitely be an "and either"
  436. # [20:37] <annevk> made it consistent with what I have for addEventListener even though it seems somewhat overkill
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  441. # [20:44] <annevk> tomorrow I'll introduce something that can replace "Firing a simple event named e" in HTML
  442. # [20:45] <annevk> because however early, I need some sleep :)
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  452. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> So I've got a sort of working testharness.js version of my tests: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/raw-file/tip/tests/submission/AryehGregor/reflection/reflection-onepage.html
  453. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Actually not much slower than my original one.
  454. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> But it's not really using them as intended, I think.
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  456. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Like, I'm running tests conditionally.
  457. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Oh well, it's a start.
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  460. # [21:33] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  461. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it occurs to me that if execCommand() will be defined in the W3C's copy of HTML5 and normatively references DOM Range, DOM Range will need to be someplace in W3C space.
  462. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Apparently that's happening, though, so no worries.
  463. # [21:44] <Hixie> i encourage you to not worry about w3c bureaucracy :-)
  464. # [21:44] <Hixie> if w3c cares, they'll fix it. if they don't, doesn't matter, we'll just spec it elsewhere.
  465. # [21:45] <Hixie> right now the html5 spec at w3c references html5.org for dom range
  466. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Oh, and you get away with that. No problem, then.
  467. # [21:47] <Hixie> the w3c copy is only important for patent protection issues, and we won't get that for a decade or so at the current rate anyway
  468. # [21:47] <Hixie> so...
  469. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> It's also important if you want Microsoft to pay attention, particularly to test suites submitted to the W3C HTML test suite vs. anywhere else.
  470. # [21:48] <Hixie> it's a myth that microsoft only pays attention to w3c (one that they are happy to have be believed)
  471. # [21:49] <Hixie> they'll implement whatever they need to implement to get interop with what their customers say they need
  472. # [21:49] <Hixie> e.g. microsoft's blogging software implements pingback, which is just a spec on hixie.ch
  473. # [21:50] <Hixie> similarly the IE team pays attention to the acid tests
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  492. # [23:06] <key> hey guys, i've spent a few days trying to solve this issue and the ppl in #css/#html5 are stuck too.. maybe some html/css genius in here can do it: http://www.pastie.org/private/xo1w15miulgzf3ho9oya
  493. # [23:06] <key> basically i just need the sub menu lower and left aligned to the main menu regardless of which main menu LI the sub menu UL is attached to
  494. # [23:08] <aho> key, wrong channel
  495. # [23:08] <key> only douches in here?
  496. # [23:08] * Parts: key (~user@cpe-66-8-184-78.hawaii.res.rr.com)
  497. # [23:08] <aho> today's youth
  498. # [23:08] <aho> *shrug*
  499. # [23:08] <zewt> also yesterday's youth and tomorrow's youth
  500. # [23:09] <aho> :>
  501. # [23:09] <zewt> the only thing special about today's youth is they happen to be the ones you'll see ... today
  502. # [23:10] <aho> zewt, it was just an empty "get off my lawn" phrase. it was entirely meaningless :>
  503. # [23:11] <zewt> don't worry, i'm sitting on the porch shaking my fist at those damned kids too :P
  504. # [23:12] <annevk> so I'm still awake and apparently Ms2ger needs not be summoned to IRC for regenerating the spec
  505. # [23:12] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#events
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  507. # [23:15] <zewt> seems sort of odd that "propagation flag" and "immediate propagation flag" seem more like "stop propagation flag" ... as if the values are reversed
  508. # [23:16] <annevk> hmm yeah
  509. # [23:16] <annevk> I wanted to shorten their length but that does not make it clearer indeed
  510. # [23:17] <zewt> just flip the booleans? maybe given their purpose that would be odd (since they would be inverted from "canceled flag")
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  512. # [23:18] <annevk> no I am adding stop back in
  513. # [23:19] <annevk> you want to be in the list of acknowledgments as "zewt" or some other name?
  514. # [23:19] <zewt> The timeStamp attribute must be useless.
  515. # [23:19] <zewt> heh
  516. # [23:20] <zewt> Glenn Maynard
  517. # [23:20] <annevk> aha
  518. # [23:21] <zewt> i've wished the timeStamp attribute worked in the past ... when doing things like emulating double-clicks from mouse (actually, touch) events
  519. # [23:21] <zewt> guess it's just too far outside of browser event models to be able to do that reasonably
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  521. # [23:24] <annevk> I think the way it works in Gecko enables that
  522. # [23:24] <annevk> not really sure how to define it yet
  523. # [23:24] <annevk> I wouldn't mind dropping it or having it always return 0 like in Opera, but that's not really the most useful
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  527. # [23:37] <zewt> "Because createEvent() is located on the Document object it cannot be used by Web Workers." hmm ... although it clearly amtters less in workers (without the DOM, the more complex uses of events go away anyway), it does seem like an odd missing piece, given that events are still used; no particular use cases come to mind off-hand, though (possibly just due to not having used workers in complex enough ways yet)
  528. # [23:38] <Yuhong> Now that WHATWG HTML is versionless, the W3C copy is the only thing that can be referred to as "HTML5", ending confusion.
  529. # [23:38] <Yuhong> And making the relationship between the two very clear.
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  532. # [23:40] <Yuhong> annevk: It is sad that your blog don't have comments.
  533. # [23:41] * Evet_ is now known as Evet
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  536. # [23:41] <annevk> I saw your tweet... I don't really want to have to maintain such discussions anymore.
  537. # [23:42] <annevk> But this is the web, you do not have to be constrained with what I am offering on my site ;)
  538. # [23:43] <Yuhong> annevk: Except that as it happened, IE9 went RC around that time.
  539. # [23:47] * Quits: kor (~kor@a83-161-211-173.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: kor)
  540. # [23:48] <Yuhong> annevk: To summarize: IE stagnated for five years, then it took another five years for it to finally implement XHTML!
  541. # [23:48] <zewt> am I the only person that keeps trying to define javascript functions as "var func() { }"? it's an instinct I just can't override, heh
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  544. # [23:57] <zewt> "The list of event listeners can be manipulated while event listeners are being run." a bit vague--will the particulars of that be specified?
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  547. # [23:58] <annevk> zewt, it's just a statement of fact
  548. # [23:58] <annevk> addEventListener and removeEventListener already define how the list is manipulated
  549. # [23:58] <annevk> the rest is just going through a live list
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  551. # Session Close: Mon Feb 14 00:00:00 2011

The end :)