/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-14 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Feb 14 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <zewt> well, it seems that event handlers added during dispatch aren't being called, but ones removed also aren't (that is, removals during invocation are honored, but additions aren't) ... trying to see if that behavior is defined by the spec
  4. # [00:01] <annevk> that is not
  5. # [00:03] <annevk> hmm yeah
  6. # [00:03] <zewt> it could be: define step 4 of invocation as operating on a copy of the event handler list, and have removeEventListener mark the event listener unused (for example, set its name to null, so 4.3 always terminates)
  7. # [00:05] <annevk> you can dispatch empty string events but yeah, something like that might work
  8. # [00:06] <zewt> that would also avoid any ambiguity if, for example, an event handler is removed from the list then re-added in the same event
  9. # [00:07] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  10. # [00:08] <annevk> it would not be triggered then right?
  11. # [00:08] <zewt> right
  12. # [00:08] <zewt> since logically it's a new listener
  13. # [00:08] <annevk> so for nodes this is per "current target" I assume?
  14. # [00:09] <annevk> that is, a current target can manipulate the listeners for the next current target as pleased
  15. # [00:09] <zewt> right ... i havn't checked that part of browser behavior though
  16. # [00:12] <zewt> http://pastebin.com/kzscSk01 clicking text alerts in Opera but not FF3.6 or Chrome
  17. # [00:14] <zewt> http://pastebin.com/ZTRw2iga same results when removing and adding in the same handler
  18. # [00:14] <annevk> so Opera has the DOM3Events behavior of having a static copy
  19. # [00:15] <annevk> whoa, so adding it again marks it "used" or some such?
  20. # [00:15] <annevk> in Gecko/WebKit
  21. # [00:15] <annevk> hmm, I should try sleeping again and maybe play with IEs implementation tomorrow
  22. # [00:16] <zewt> i imagine that removing it marks the listener as "dead", and adding it later adds an entirely new listener
  23. # [00:16] <annevk> oh right, see, I'm tired
  24. # [00:16] <zewt> which was what I was going for above with the notion of clearing "name" (which was just a shorthand hack, of course, should be a named property or something in a spec)
  25. # [00:18] <annevk> fun stuff
  26. # [00:21] <zewt> re: manipulating listeners the next ancestor target, yes in all of those browsers: http://pastebin.com/NEdKDMHT
  27. # [00:21] <annevk> thanks man
  28. # [00:22] <annevk> I wonder if Opera has any bugs filed against it for having a completely static list
  29. # [00:22] <annevk> and what IE does
  30. # [00:23] <annevk> not having to add a "dead flag" might be nice
  31. # [00:23] <zewt> did you do the work boiling down the dispatch/invocation rules? because that's pretty well done
  32. # [00:23] <annevk> anyway, sleep
  33. # [00:23] <annevk> yeah, you can see how i went about it here: https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core
  34. # [00:24] <zewt> later, go to sleep before you get dragged into something else, that's what IRC does :P
  35. # [00:24] <annevk> heh :)
  36. # [00:27] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.45.219) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  37. # [00:34] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  38. # [00:39] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  39. # [00:48] * Quits: deffy (~mike@cpc2-seac16-0-0-cust506.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  40. # [00:51] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
  41. # [00:54] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  42. # [00:54] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  43. # [00:56] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  44. # [00:57] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  45. # [00:57] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.66)
  46. # [00:58] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  47. # [01:00] * Joins: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-99-147-150-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  48. # [01:09] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-zycjuvgiyqgexgqh) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  49. # [01:09] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@netDHCP-169.keio.w3.org) (Quit: kennyluck)
  50. # [01:09] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.130.114) (Quit: boaz)
  51. # [01:09] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@219.157.197.113.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  52. # [01:10] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-psgdbdqivqifrdkk)
  53. # [01:15] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@113x34x70x149.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  54. # [01:16] * Joins: 92AACFCXU (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  55. # [01:18] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  56. # [01:18] * Joins: enhydra (~kalan@wikimedia/Kalan)
  57. # [01:19] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@113x34x70x149.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  58. # [01:20] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  59. # [01:22] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  60. # [01:27] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  61. # [01:30] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
  62. # [01:36] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  63. # [01:36] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  64. # [01:39] * Joins: Evet_ (~Evet@78.181.3.103)
  65. # [01:42] * Quits: Evet (~Evet@pdpc/supporter/active/evet) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  66. # [01:47] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  67. # [01:49] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  68. # [01:49] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  69. # [01:51] * Joins: jgv (~jgv@rrcs-184-74-186-58.nyc.biz.rr.com)
  70. # [01:52] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  71. # [01:57] * Quits: jgv (~jgv@rrcs-184-74-186-58.nyc.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  72. # [01:57] * Joins: jgv (~jgv@rrcs-184-74-186-58.nyc.biz.rr.com)
  73. # [02:02] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  74. # [02:06] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  75. # [02:06] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  76. # [02:08] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  77. # [02:08] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  78. # [02:15] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  79. # [02:20] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  80. # [02:20] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  81. # [02:23] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  82. # [02:25] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  83. # [02:29] * Quits: jgv (~jgv@rrcs-184-74-186-58.nyc.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  84. # [02:30] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  85. # [02:32] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-95-20.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  86. # [02:32] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: I was raided by the FBI and all I got to keep was this lousy quit message!)
  87. # [02:33] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  88. # [02:34] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  89. # [02:35] <zewt> heh, i didn't notice on first (or third) reading the distinction between "the list of scripts that will execute in order as soon as possible" and the "set of scripts that will execute as soon as possible"
  90. # [02:36] * Quits: 92AACFCXU (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  91. # [02:37] * Quits: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams) (Quit: GarethAdams|Home)
  92. # [02:39] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  93. # [02:41] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  94. # [02:47] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  95. # [02:48] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  96. # [02:49] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  97. # [02:52] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@c-69-181-26-199.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
  98. # [02:54] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  99. # [02:59] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  100. # [03:06] <zewt> oh, apparently FF4 now does Opera's alerts-modal-to-the-tab ... finally
  101. # [03:07] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  102. # [03:12] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  103. # [03:14] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  104. # [03:17] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
  105. # [03:25] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  106. # [03:29] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  107. # [03:38] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  108. # [03:42] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.66) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  109. # [03:46] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  110. # [03:59] * Quits: Evet_ (~Evet@78.181.3.103) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  111. # [03:59] * Joins: Evet__ (~Evet@78.181.3.103)
  112. # [04:04] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  113. # [04:15] * Joins: agektmr1 (~Adium@p4189-ipbf5102marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  114. # [04:22] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-146-139.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  115. # [04:23] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: bentruyman)
  116. # [04:24] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  117. # [04:24] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@user-160vrg5.cable.mindspring.com)
  118. # [04:24] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  119. # [04:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-5-46.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  120. # [04:25] * Quits: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-99-147-150-91.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  121. # [04:25] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Client Quit)
  122. # [04:27] * Quits: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-146-139.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  123. # [04:40] * Quits: agektmr1 (~Adium@p4189-ipbf5102marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
  124. # [04:42] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  125. # [04:43] * Joins: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@190.203.237.143)
  126. # [04:45] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  127. # [04:45] * Quits: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@190.203.237.143) (Changing host)
  128. # [04:45] * Joins: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@unaffiliated/sebasmagri)
  129. # [04:46] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  130. # [04:47] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  131. # [04:50] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  132. # [04:51] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  133. # [04:59] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  134. # [05:16] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  135. # [05:16] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  136. # [05:17] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  137. # [05:28] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  138. # [05:30] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  139. # [05:37] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  140. # [05:39] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  141. # [05:45] * Quits: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec) (Quit: Leaving)
  142. # [06:00] * Quits: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Quit: Leaving...)
  143. # [06:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-5-159.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  144. # [06:20] * Quits: drunknbass (~drunknbas@76.91.255.83) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  145. # [06:22] * Joins: yehuda (~Adium@77.126.114.223)
  146. # [06:24] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  147. # [06:26] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  148. # [06:32] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@user-160vrg5.cable.mindspring.com) (Quit: miketaylr)
  149. # [06:41] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  150. # [06:52] * Quits: torvalamo (~loriisacu@c1F78BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  151. # [06:53] * Parts: yehuda (~Adium@77.126.114.223)
  152. # [06:57] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  153. # [07:00] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  154. # [07:04] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-168-150-222.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: http://brandedcode.com | http://github.com/miksago)
  155. # [07:06] * Joins: homata___ (~homata@113x34x70x149.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  156. # [07:06] * Joins: homa_____ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  157. # [07:06] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  158. # [07:07] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  159. # [07:08] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: bentruyman)
  160. # [07:08] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  161. # [07:11] * Quits: homata___ (~homata@113x34x70x149.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  162. # [07:21] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  163. # [07:42] * Joins: kor (~kor@a83-161-211-173.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  164. # [07:44] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-95-20.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  165. # [07:48] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  166. # [07:51] * Quits: homa_____ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  167. # [07:58] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: boaz)
  168. # [08:05] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@124-168-150-222.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  169. # [08:10] * Quits: davve__ (~davve@83.218.67.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
  170. # [08:11] * Joins: davve (~davve@83.218.67.122)
  171. # [08:11] * davve is now known as davve__
  172. # [08:13] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  173. # [08:18] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  174. # [08:33] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  175. # [08:38] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  176. # [08:38] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  177. # [08:38] * Joins: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  178. # [08:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  179. # [08:45] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  180. # [08:50] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  181. # [08:50] <zcorpan> good morning whatwg
  182. # [08:52] <annevk> mornings
  183. # [09:00] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  184. # [09:01] * Joins: 92AACFH4L (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  185. # [09:08] * Quits: 92AACFH4L (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  186. # [09:09] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  187. # [09:10] * zcorpan had a little vacation last week
  188. # [09:11] <annevk> nice
  189. # [09:12] * Joins: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  190. # [09:12] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  191. # [09:13] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  192. # [09:14] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  193. # [09:17] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  194. # [09:18] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  195. # [09:21] * Quits: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  196. # [09:21] * Joins: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  197. # [09:28] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
  198. # [09:31] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c704c.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  199. # [09:36] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.45.219)
  200. # [09:41] * Quits: kor (~kor@a83-161-211-173.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: kor)
  201. # [09:41] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  202. # [09:42] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  203. # [09:44] * Quits: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Quit: Leaving...)
  204. # [09:45] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  205. # [09:53] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  206. # [09:53] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  207. # [10:00] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Remote host closed the connection)
  208. # [10:02] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-186-193-114.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  209. # [10:02] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  210. # [10:04] <Hixie> oops, forgot to write a ccp for 127
  211. # [10:04] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  212. # [10:07] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.137.222)
  213. # [10:08] <annevk> not so much happened last week
  214. # [10:08] * Quits: homata__ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  215. # [10:10] <zewt> are there any major caching bugs with web workers and opera 11.01? (reloading the page doesn't seem to be reloading scripts)
  216. # [10:11] <Hixie> opera in general is aggressive in caching by default
  217. # [10:11] <Hixie> you can change the settings in the prefs
  218. # [10:11] <zewt> yeah but hitting ^R on a page should always revalidate
  219. # [10:11] <Hixie> if it doesn't, probably a bug then :-)
  220. # [10:12] <zewt> had to play foo.js?1 games to trick it, heh
  221. # [10:12] * Joins: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host134-74-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  222. # [10:14] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  223. # [10:15] <annevk> so btw
  224. # [10:15] * Quits: imajes (~imajes@host-67-23-79-82.biznesshosting.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  225. # [10:15] <annevk> if anyone has something they want me to include in WHATWG Weekly, say so
  226. # [10:17] <zcorpan> annevk: ah, a Weekly, that means i don't need to read my emails, right? :)
  227. # [10:17] * Joins: imajes (~imajes@is.imaj.es)
  228. # [10:18] <annevk> I wish I could summarize them all :)
  229. # [10:18] <zewt> no you don't :)
  230. # [10:22] <Hixie> btw if anyone wants to object to -148, please do so, as i'm not going to
  231. # [10:22] <Hixie> (my plan is to do whatever change julian wants and update the spec a year or two from now to match whatever implementations do then)
  232. # [10:25] <Hixie> nobody else other than me and tab has objections to the proposal to allow <a role=progressbar>? :-P http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-129-objection-poll/results
  233. # [10:26] <annevk> I haven't taken the time yet, but it seems I should given the closing date
  234. # [10:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: what's the deadline for CCPs for -144? The issue-status page claims the status is the CCP phase but there's no deadline listed
  235. # [10:27] <othermaciej> checking...
  236. # [10:27] <othermaciej> Hixie: the next step is for the chairs to announce a call for alternate proposals
  237. # [10:28] <othermaciej> so no action for the WG yet
  238. # [10:28] <Hixie> ah ok
  239. # [10:28] <Hixie> my bad, misread it
  240. # [10:28] <othermaciej> (though of course it's always fine to submit early)
  241. # [10:29] * Joins: Smylers1 (~smylers@109.144.220.73)
  242. # [10:29] <Hixie> no offence, but these CCPs are wasting plenty enough of my time already without my writing them before i've given everyone else every chance to either retract their objection or provide their own counter-objection
  243. # [10:30] <othermaciej> none taken
  244. # [10:40] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  245. # [10:40] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  246. # [10:45] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.225.145)
  247. # [11:06] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Remote host closed the connection)
  248. # [11:07] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  249. # [11:09] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  250. # [11:09] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
  251. # [11:11] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  252. # [11:14] * Quits: uf0 (deeznuts@80.244.247.158) (Remote host closed the connection)
  253. # [11:17] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-synchronized-media
  254. # [11:18] * Quits: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  255. # [11:19] * Joins: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu)
  256. # [11:20] <annevk> it's a little short as I'm not feeling very inspired today
  257. # [11:24] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  258. # [11:24] * Joins: uf0 (deeznuts@80.244.247.158)
  259. # [11:28] * annevk fires up Windows 7
  260. # [11:28] <zewt> my condolences
  261. # [11:29] <annevk> it's boxed :)
  262. # [11:29] <zewt> it's not much of an improvement to step on a pile of poo if it happens to be in a box
  263. # [11:32] <annevk> isn't the whole idea of virtual boxing that such a thing cannot happen? :)
  264. # [11:37] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  265. # [11:37] <jgraham> Maybe "fires up" === douses in petrol and conflagrates it
  266. # [11:40] <annevk> so only IE9 has DOM Events support?
  267. # [11:40] <jgraham> Only IE9 has addEventListener at least
  268. # [11:41] * jgraham wonders how the "proposal for seperating script download and execution" thread missed out on WHATWG weekly. But maybe it was last week too
  269. # [11:43] <annevk> it was already there
  270. # [11:46] <annevk> "restart your computer"
  271. # [11:46] <annevk> omg this is slow
  272. # [11:47] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  273. # [11:48] <jgraham> Installing IE9?
  274. # [11:49] <jgraham> Yeah, I managed to install 3.5 other browsers in the time it took to install IE9
  275. # [11:50] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net)
  276. # [11:51] * Quits: Smylers1 (~smylers@109.144.220.73) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  277. # [11:53] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-186-193-114.range86-186.btcentralplus.com)
  278. # [11:53] <annevk> zewt, IE/Opera have a static list; Gecko/WebKit allow removal of listeners
  279. # [11:53] <annevk> zewt, guess I'll go with IE/Opera as DOM3Events says that too
  280. # [11:54] <zewt> hmm
  281. # [11:56] * Parts: deane_ (~dean@119.224.46.213)
  282. # [11:57] * Quits: deane (~dean@119.224.46.213) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  283. # [11:57] <zewt> event listeners added to the current event target during the event aren't fired in opera, at least, assuming my quick test is correct
  284. # [11:57] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  285. # [11:57] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  286. # [11:57] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  287. # [11:58] <zewt> probably in all browsers, for that case
  288. # [11:58] <zewt> at least that simplifies it--eg. static list operating on a copy doesn't need any special "dead handler" handling
  289. # [11:59] <annevk> indeed
  290. # [12:03] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-162-71.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  291. # [12:03] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  292. # [12:04] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Client Quit)
  293. # [12:05] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  294. # [12:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-5-159.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  295. # [12:06] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  296. # [12:06] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  297. # [12:11] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  298. # [12:12] <annevk> should preventDefault() only work while the dispatch flag is set?
  299. # [12:13] <annevk> I guess it does not really matter
  300. # [12:15] <zewt> hmm, it matters if you call preventDefault before dispatching the event, right? particularly since you have dom-core resetting the cancelled flag at the start of dispatching, where dom-3 does it at the end ... if you can preventDefault while it's not being dispatched, that difference would be exposed
  301. # [12:15] <annevk> Hixie, you still around?
  302. # [12:16] <annevk> Hixie, it seems that multiple file upload requires breaking the multipart/form-data standard further: http://my.cn.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=841672&page=1
  303. # [12:16] <annevk> zewt, yeah only then is when it matters
  304. # [12:17] <annevk> zewt, and I was wondering whether initEvent should reset it if we allow for it
  305. # [12:17] <annevk> zewt, it seems WebKit allows it and does not reset it when you invoke initEvent
  306. # [12:17] <annevk> and that works for me
  307. # [12:18] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  308. # [12:20] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  309. # [12:23] <zcorpan> are you guys speccing dom events?
  310. # [12:26] <zewt> what about how the cancel flag reset difference is exposed--any way to reconcile that?
  311. # [12:28] * Joins: rkp (handcraft@cpc2-cmbg8-0-0-cust574.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com)
  312. # [12:28] * Quits: rkp (handcraft@cpc2-cmbg8-0-0-cust574.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com) (Client Quit)
  313. # [12:28] <zewt> or is it just a question of getting the dom spec adjusted too
  314. # [12:30] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com)
  315. # [12:31] <annevk> zcorpan, it's pretty much done
  316. # [12:31] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#events
  317. # [12:31] <annevk> plus fixes in https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core
  318. # [12:31] <zcorpan> nice!
  319. # [12:31] <annevk> that await Ms2ger regen skills
  320. # [12:32] <zcorpan> "The timeStamp attribute must be useless. Come on!" lol
  321. # [12:32] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  322. # [12:33] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.45.219) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  323. # [12:35] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Remote host closed the connection)
  324. # [12:36] <zcorpan> an order of magnitude better than dom3 events
  325. # [12:37] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk)
  326. # [12:38] <annevk> thanks, that was the goal :)
  327. # [12:38] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
  328. # [12:38] <zcorpan> annevk: i guess the Historical section needs some new stuff now
  329. # [12:39] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  330. # [12:39] <annevk> yeah, there's a comment just below the Events heading with some info
  331. # [12:39] <annevk> I did update Goals to make more sense
  332. # [12:40] <annevk> I actually want to remove Historical at some point but for now I suppose it should be kept
  333. # [12:41] <zcorpan> annevk: i asked for event interfaces to become constructors at some point, for easier creation of events and to allow event creation in workers
  334. # [12:42] <annevk> I know, but I don't really like it
  335. # [12:42] <annevk> and it's not too hard to create an event
  336. # [12:43] <zcorpan> it's pretty hard in workers :)
  337. # [12:43] <annevk> I did think of allowing e.g. document.createEvent("customevent", "teehee", false, false, {"data":"teehee"}) as some kind of create and initialize shortcut
  338. # [12:44] <annevk> Web Workers could define a createEvent event method that worked identical to document.createEvent()
  339. # [12:44] <annevk> it's not very hard
  340. # [12:44] <annevk> works*
  341. # [12:44] <annevk> if people actually care about synthetic events there
  342. # [12:45] <zcorpan> true
  343. # [12:45] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  344. # [12:45] <annevk> zcorpan, I did make initEvent arguments optional
  345. # [12:45] <zcorpan> yep
  346. # [12:45] <jgraham> Creating an event is super hard
  347. # [12:45] <annevk> so now you can do e = document.createEvent("event"); e.initEvent("teehee") and bubble/cancelable default to their initial values
  348. # [12:46] <annevk> jgraham, with one method call you have an event you can use
  349. # [12:46] <annevk> jgraham, with another you can set its name
  350. # [12:46] <jgraham> Well that sounds like one too many already
  351. # [12:46] <zewt> making dom events seems less important in workers, but it does seem sort of like the one little piece that's not there
  352. # [12:47] <annevk> well, people want DOM access in workers
  353. # [12:47] <zewt> (and I probably only see it as less important since I havn't hit any use cases for it yet--and that's probably just because I havn't used workers much yet)
  354. # [12:47] <annevk> if that is coming having a separate event constructor is not needed
  355. # [12:47] <jgraham> You can't have DOM access in workers…
  356. # [12:47] <zcorpan> foo.dispatchEvent(new Event('bar')); seems a lot nicer than var e = document.createEvent('event'); e.initEvent('bar'); foo.dispatchEvent(e);
  357. # [12:47] <zewt> you can have narrow, carefully-defined parts of the DOM API, though
  358. # [12:47] <annevk> with separate processes you can
  359. # [12:48] <jgraham> Well maybe
  360. # [12:48] <zcorpan> annevk: why don't you like constructor?
  361. # [12:48] <annevk> zcorpan, with my idea you could do foo.dispatchEvent(document.createEvent("event", "bar"))
  362. # [12:48] <jgraham> But I think gating features on mjor architectural change in browsers is not a good idea
  363. # [12:48] <zcorpan> annevk: ah
  364. # [12:48] <annevk> zcorpan, quite a bit of complexity for making a niche feature easier to use
  365. # [12:48] <zcorpan> annevk: wfm
  366. # [12:48] * jgraham likes zcorpan's syntax better
  367. # [12:49] <jgraham> But then we should also make Element et. al. constructors
  368. # [12:49] <annevk> jgraham, it's not really gating the feature on that, in general there's not really demand for the feature in the first place
  369. # [12:49] <zcorpan> let's not :)
  370. # [12:49] <jgraham> The design of DOM with all the factory functions is just annoying
  371. # [12:49] <zcorpan> new HTMLMediaElement('div'); woot
  372. # [12:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: What makes you think that would work?
  373. # [12:50] <annevk> jgraham, write a library that abstracts it away :)
  374. # [12:50] <jgraham> annevk: Well there are alreasy libraries
  375. # [12:50] <zcorpan> jgraham: what's your proposal?
  376. # [12:50] <jgraham> Doesn't mean that DOM ought to suck
  377. # [12:51] <annevk> jgraham, well it does and making it vastly more complex is not going to make it suck less :)
  378. # [12:51] <jgraham> zcorpan: I guess it would have to throw if you tried to createelement an element that didn't implement the interface, or something
  379. # [12:52] <jgraham> In general having one interface per element would have been nice
  380. # [12:52] <jgraham> s/createelement/construct/
  381. # [12:52] <jgraham> Anyway, this should still work for events
  382. # [12:53] <zcorpan> jgraham: with constructors for elements you need to remember both the interface name and the element, which seems annoying, but already the case for events
  383. # [12:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: Right, it is less good for elements because DOM wasn't designed to make it work
  384. # [12:54] <jgraham> being able to do new HTMLVideoElement() would have been fine
  385. # [12:54] <annevk> I think most people don't really care about this so much
  386. # [12:54] <annevk> it's more how setting attributes and such is a pain, or content
  387. # [12:54] <jgraham> Probably not because they probably use jQuery because DOM sucks so much
  388. # [12:54] <annevk> they use innerHTML :)
  389. # [12:55] <jgraham> They use jQuery which uses innerHTML
  390. # [12:55] <annevk> anyway, I'm not gonna add features for now :)
  391. # [12:55] <annevk> but I would welcome review and tests of what is there
  392. # [12:56] <zcorpan> seems like a good plan to start with removing features
  393. # [12:56] <annevk> apart from the hasFeature design I have not killed anything I think
  394. # [12:56] <annevk> well
  395. # [12:56] <annevk> EventException is gone
  396. # [12:57] <annevk> and .type restrictions are gone
  397. # [12:57] <annevk> stopImmediatePropagation could be removed, but it seems somewhat useful
  398. # [12:58] <annevk> same for defaultPrevented
  399. # [12:58] <zewt> like i mentioned the other day, i've definitely hit at least one case where it would have helped
  400. # [12:58] <annevk> I want to add the "event handler attribute" model
  401. # [12:58] <annevk> I think
  402. # [12:59] <annevk> though since nothing needs it I'm not a 100% sure it's appropriate
  403. # [12:59] <annevk> but it seems that everything that defines an object that inherits from EventTarget wants them
  404. # [12:59] <annevk> so from that perspective...
  405. # [13:00] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  406. # [13:01] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254)
  407. # [13:01] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  408. # [13:06] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  409. # [13:07] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk)
  410. # [13:10] <zcorpan> annevk: what are your thoughts on cssom and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11955 ?
  411. # [13:12] <annevk> I'm not sure what he means with "lots"
  412. # [13:13] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  413. # [13:13] <annevk> he's right about pointer-events, but that should be disabled anyway for cross-origin images
  414. # [13:15] <zcorpan> can pointer-events be disabled for cross-origin fonts too then?
  415. # [13:16] <annevk> click -> text -> drawn using same-origin font ? path : otherpath
  416. # [13:16] <annevk> it seems somewhat logical that it can
  417. # [13:16] <annevk> but I don't know for sure
  418. # [13:17] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  419. # [13:18] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  420. # [13:21] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk)
  421. # [13:26] * Quits: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Quit: Leaving...)
  422. # [13:43] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  423. # [13:43] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Client Quit)
  424. # [13:50] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@netDHCP-169.keio.w3.org)
  425. # [13:58] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  426. # [14:03] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  427. # [14:04] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  428. # [14:16] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237)
  429. # [14:22] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  430. # [14:36] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  431. # [14:46] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  432. # [15:01] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.36)
  433. # [15:06] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.8)
  434. # [15:13] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk)
  435. # [15:14] * Joins: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  436. # [15:14] * Joins: torvalamo (~loriisacu@c1F78BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  437. # [15:24] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  438. # [15:27] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2)
  439. # [15:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks for WONTFIXing http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11427
  440. # [15:27] <hsivonen> (the xml:id thing)
  441. # [15:28] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Client Quit)
  442. # [15:29] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2)
  443. # [15:30] <Peter`> Hm. The charter extension mail on public-html says "There is a new a target date for Recommendation of mid-2014."
  444. # [15:30] <hsivonen> good luck getting two interoperable impls. by then
  445. # [15:32] <jgraham> If we have interoperable implementations by then, the testsuite wasn't good enough
  446. # [15:33] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
  447. # [15:34] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  448. # [15:35] <annevk> not to worry, it can be extended again
  449. # [15:37] <annevk> "Therefore, to fulfill the W3C HTML Working Group's mission, W3C Director Tim Berners-Lee encourages the participants to begin discussion of requirements for future versions of HTML after HTML5 reaches Last Call."
  450. # [15:37] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2011/02/htmlwg-pr.html
  451. # [15:38] <Philip`> Maybe the Rec requirements will be relaxed before 2014, so that they're not insanely impossible to reach without cheating
  452. # [15:38] <annevk> I sense "stable standard" must be some play on "living standard" :)
  453. # [15:38] <hsivonen> stable as in dead compared to living?
  454. # [15:40] <annevk> They also gave up marking HTML5 up as abbreviation, but they are still doing it for CSS and such
  455. # [15:41] <annevk> How they defend "stable" is full of bullshit though.
  456. # [15:42] <annevk> At least, hardly any of the standards W3C has produced to date that targeted browsers have been stable in the way they describe.
  457. # [15:42] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@host-66-96-230-24.midco.net)
  458. # [15:42] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@host-66-96-230-24.midco.net) (Changing host)
  459. # [15:42] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113)
  460. # [15:43] <annevk> DOM Core, DOM Events, HTML4, CSS2, CSS1, DOM HTML, XML, DOM Style, etc. all have been substantially revised over the years.
  461. # [15:47] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  462. # [15:50] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/html/wiki/FAQs says Open Web Platform is the new HTML5
  463. # [15:50] <annevk> "Starting in March, W3C will dedicate new staff to drive development of an HTML5 test suite."
  464. # [15:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I thought the Open Web Platform was the *old* HTML5 while Dion Almaer, Ben Galbraith and Brad Neuberg were still running that evangelism branch at Google
  465. # [16:04] <zcorpan> that faq talks a lot about <video>
  466. # [16:05] <jgraham> testsuite development++
  467. # [16:08] <hsivonen> whoa. I'm lagging behind in email. How did the rechartering happen without epic political drama? does HTML5 now have so much brand clout that haters were too shy to hate?
  468. # [16:09] * hsivonen hasn't inspected what went down in Member space
  469. # [16:09] <annevk> hsivonen, extensions do not have to be discussed
  470. # [16:09] <annevk> hsivonen, just an agreement between W3C Team and Chairs
  471. # [16:09] <hsivonen> annevk: I see
  472. # [16:15] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  473. # [16:16] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113) ("Leaving")
  474. # [16:17] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  475. # [16:18] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
  476. # [16:19] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-bsr1.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  477. # [16:21] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  478. # [16:29] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  479. # [16:39] * Evet__ is now known as Evet
  480. # [16:39] * Quits: Evet (~Evet@78.181.3.103) (Changing host)
  481. # [16:40] * Joins: Evet (~Evet@pdpc/supporter/active/evet)
  482. # [16:41] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  483. # [16:42] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  484. # [16:50] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  485. # [16:51] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  486. # [17:02] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.146.236)
  487. # [17:02] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  488. # [17:05] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.8) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  489. # [17:08] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.8)
  490. # [17:09] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  491. # [17:16] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  492. # [17:27] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  493. # [17:29] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  494. # [17:32] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  495. # [17:37] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@209.119.65.162)
  496. # [17:40] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  497. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> jgraham: FWIW, we're trying to make the DOM run on constructors instead of factory functions.
  498. # [17:40] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  499. # [17:40] <jgraham> TabAtkins: "We"?
  500. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> Chrome.
  501. # [17:41] <jgraham> Um, OK. In what way?
  502. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> In that "new HTMLPElement()" should work, and be subclassable.
  503. # [17:42] <jgraham> You are planning to expose this to web content?
  504. # [17:42] <annevk> Larry Masinter suggests using Wikipedia for registries over on www-tag
  505. # [17:42] <jgraham> Interesting…
  506. # [17:42] <annevk> wfm
  507. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> Once we get it working, yes.
  508. # [17:42] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c76b1.pool.mediaWays.net)
  509. # [17:42] <jgraham> new HTMLMediaElement("div") -> ?
  510. # [17:42] <jgraham> Or do you have one interface per element?
  511. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> The latter, presumably.
  512. # [17:42] <jgraham> s/interface/constructor/
  513. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> This is still in a handwavey stage in terms of details.
  514. # [17:43] <jgraham> OK
  515. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> But we're poking at V8 to see how we can do this and allow subclassing like a normal JS object.
  516. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> While still wiring up the appropriate binding magic on the back-end.
  517. # [17:44] <jgraham> subclassing === function MyP(){}; MyP.prototype = HTMLPElement?
  518. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  519. # [17:44] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  520. # [17:44] <TabAtkins> (I see no reason not to use established terminology just because we use a different model of OO.)
  521. # [17:45] <jgraham> So, obviosuly I like the idea, but why are you doing this?
  522. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Because factory functions are ugly, and DOM objects aren't subclassable.
  523. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> (This ties into the component model stuff we're doing.)
  524. # [17:45] <jgraham> (the inheritance thing seems like it might encourage dubious design patterns like putting custom functions on built-in objects)
  525. # [17:49] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  526. # [17:50] * bentruyman is now known as another_ben
  527. # [17:50] <Philip`> annevk: That'd work until someone deletes the registry because it's original research
  528. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> This is, of course, what the microformats wiki is for.
  529. # [17:53] <annevk> there's a lot of registries
  530. # [17:53] <annevk> I doubt microformats would want to host URL schemes
  531. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> Ask tantek. He's been sanguine about it before, I believe.
  532. # [18:02] * Quits: another_ben (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Quit: another_ben)
  533. # [18:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-162-71.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  534. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> How do you create an SVG image with just an aspect ratio, not an intrinsic width/height?
  535. # [18:08] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  536. # [18:08] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  537. # [18:10] <annevk> only setting viewBox="" ?
  538. # [18:10] <annevk> or is the intrinsic width/height 100%/100% then?
  539. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Is that how you do it? I don't understand the relationship between width/height/viewBox.
  540. # [18:10] <annevk> I had a hard time figuring that out in the SVG spec last time I played with all that
  541. # [18:11] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-60-39.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  542. # [18:11] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  543. # [18:11] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  544. # [18:12] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Quit: thiessenp)
  545. # [18:12] <wilhelm> I failed last time I tried. img { width:90%; } solved my problem, though.
  546. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> That doesn't help when you're using SVG in list-style-image.
  547. # [18:13] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  548. # [18:13] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  549. # [18:17] <erlehmann> Hixie, is “The message's content type was not explicitly allowed” referring to application/pgp-signature attachments or a sniffing error on part of the web server? (fun fact: the message contained the string SRT)
  550. # [18:17] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  551. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> annevk: Okay, you're right. You can leave width/height alone and just set a viewbox to establish a coordinate system, then use one of the uniform-scaling preserveAspectRatio values.
  552. # [18:21] <shepazu> TabAtkins: annevk got it right
  553. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> shepazu: Yup, got it. Was just making sure I was right before I corrected a dude.
  554. # [18:23] <annevk> I wonder where I left my tests for this
  555. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Ugh, I hate talking to Alan Gresley. The dude runs a css tutorial site, but he is usually *completely* wrong about everything. Somehow he manages to form a uniquely wrong understanding of technical topics that I care about.
  556. # [18:27] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  557. # [18:29] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  558. # [18:39] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: jeremyselier)
  559. # [18:40] * Joins: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-wckqetokybwnzplr)
  560. # [18:40] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  561. # [18:42] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  562. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/__DavidFlanagan/status/37204148751433728 "I couldn't write #jstdg6 without the specification writers who document how the web really works. Let's send them some ♥ today!"
  563. # [18:47] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk)
  564. # [18:48] <Philip`> Yeah, let's send every WHATWG member a bodily organ
  565. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  566. # [18:50] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-186-193-114.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  567. # [18:50] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  568. # [18:51] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:0:1b00:1191:4c82:9e84:9704:c870)
  569. # [18:51] <nimbupani> omg are u all thanked yet? its #thankaspecwriterday https://twitter.com/html5/status/37205058638585856
  570. # [18:51] <jgraham> Philip`: I recommend slow braising of your gift for maximum tenderness
  571. # [18:52] * jernoble is now known as jer|afk
  572. # [18:52] <jgraham> For example http://www.channel4.com/food/recipes/chefs/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall/devilled-hearts-recipe_p_1.html
  573. # [18:52] <jgraham> Although I wonder if I have ever actually eaten heart…
  574. # [18:54] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c76b1.pool.mediaWays.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  575. # [18:54] * Quits: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@unaffiliated/sebasmagri) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  576. # [18:56] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|sick
  577. # [18:56] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c7a36.pool.mediaWays.net)
  578. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Heart's pretty good.
  579. # [19:00] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@vinov2.gotadsl.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  580. # [19:02] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  581. # [19:02] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  582. # [19:14] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  583. # [19:15] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  584. # [19:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  585. # [19:20] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: "stupidity overload")
  586. # [19:21] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  587. # [19:21] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-98-216-238-247.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  588. # [19:23] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I would try it if I could find a decent supplier of meat here
  589. # [19:23] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  590. # [19:23] <jgraham> (well there is one but it is like >20km away so not a regular trip)
  591. # [19:24] <jgraham> (and I don't recall them having much offal)
  592. # [19:24] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-238-205.dynamic.qsc.de)
  593. # [19:24] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.76)
  594. # [19:25] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  595. # [19:26] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  596. # [19:27] * Joins: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  597. # [19:27] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-nppxxqxhvctzgvkz)
  598. # [19:30] * Joins: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk)
  599. # [19:31] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  600. # [19:34] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  601. # [19:35] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.103.104)
  602. # [19:37] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  603. # [19:37] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com)
  604. # [19:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-60-39.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  605. # [19:38] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-111-42.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  606. # [19:38] * Joins: sroussey_ (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-111-42.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
  607. # [19:38] * sroussey_ is now known as sroussey
  608. # [19:40] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-188-99.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  609. # [19:41] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  610. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Dammit, Facebook, you distracted me into forgetting why I had CSS2.1 up.
  611. # [19:44] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  612. # [19:48] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-238-205.dynamic.qsc.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  613. # [19:49] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  614. # [19:52] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  615. # [19:56] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  616. # [20:02] <Hixie> annevk: not sure what needs changing based on that thread
  617. # [20:02] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: back in a bit)
  618. # [20:04] <Hixie> i wonder what "broad interoperability" means
  619. # [20:05] <Philip`> Maybe it's the opposite of deep interoperability
  620. # [20:05] <Hixie> that's kinda what i assume
  621. # [20:05] <Philip`> so everyone has to implement all the features but don't worry too much about the details because they'd take forever
  622. # [20:05] <Hixie> dunno how else we'll be reaching it by 2014
  623. # [20:07] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  624. # [20:07] <Hixie> annevk: nm i see the bug
  625. # [20:07] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  626. # [20:07] * bga_ is now known as _bga
  627. # [20:08] <Hixie> annevk: though i'm not sure <input type=file multiple> counts as a single form field from the perspective of the rfc, so technically i don't think this is a violation
  628. # [20:10] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.254.139)
  629. # [20:10] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  630. # [20:11] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  631. # [20:16] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  632. # [20:16] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  633. # [20:18] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@cm-84.215.128.231.getinternet.no)
  634. # [20:20] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ndjglhbwpfyrntep)
  635. # [20:21] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  636. # [20:22] * Quits: torvalamo (~loriisacu@c1F78BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  637. # [20:27] * Joins: torvalamo (~loriisacu@c1F78BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  638. # [20:31] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10)
  639. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Regarding the behavior of <style scoped> and @-rules, should a @font-face defined in a scoped stylesheet be available for use in a scoped stylesheet of a descendant?
  640. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> I think the answer is yes, but I'm not 100% sure from the definition in HTML.
  641. # [20:32] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10) (Client Quit)
  642. # [20:32] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  643. # [20:33] * Joins: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@190.203.237.143)
  644. # [20:33] <Hixie> "For scoped CSS resources, the effect of @-rules must be scoped to the scoped sheet and its subresources", so no
  645. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Oh, ok.
  646. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> Hmm. I guess that's okay.
  647. # [20:35] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.203.15.167)
  648. # [20:36] <Hixie> the theory is that a further scoped stylesheet is likely for a nested syndicated item of content, and you wouldn't want to afflict your declarations on third-party content
  649. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Ah, good point.
  650. # [20:36] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y227145.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  651. # [20:37] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.103.104) (Quit: othermaciej)
  652. # [20:40] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  653. # [20:46] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.195)
  654. # [20:48] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-vmltfwhoewihmric)
  655. # [20:49] * Joins: mokush (~quassel@188.24.46.123)
  656. # [20:50] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@cm-84.215.128.231.getinternet.no) (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
  657. # [20:51] * Joins: nimbupani (~nimbupani@cm-84.215.128.231.getinternet.no)
  658. # [20:53] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
  659. # [21:01] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  660. # [21:02] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-vmltfwhoewihmric) (Quit: jamesr_)
  661. # [21:06] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.225.145) (Quit: zZz)
  662. # [21:09] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  663. # [21:10] * Joins: benschwarz (~benschwar@59.167.185.148)
  664. # [21:12] * Quits: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host134-74-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  665. # [21:15] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e35:139b:b390:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  666. # [21:18] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  667. # [21:24] <erlehmann> anyone knowing how this is gonna be fixed? https://grepular.com/Abusing_HTTP_Status_Codes_to_Expose_Private_Information
  668. # [21:25] <Ms2ger> There's been ideas
  669. # [21:25] <othermaciej> break on error for cross-site loads seems like the most likely possibility
  670. # [21:27] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e35:139b:b390:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed) (Remote host closed the connection)
  671. # [21:27] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e35:139b:b390:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
  672. # [21:30] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  673. # [21:35] <benschwarz> Hixie, resize the browser on the dev spec (narrow)
  674. # [21:36] <Hixie> neat
  675. # [21:36] <Hixie> and the appcache stuff is awesome btw
  676. # [21:36] <Hixie> so freaking fast
  677. # [21:36] <benschwarz> :)
  678. # [21:36] <benschwarz> almost there Hixie…
  679. # [21:36] <Hixie> wasn't sure what the "syncing..." thing was but i guess that's appcache also?
  680. # [21:36] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
  681. # [21:37] <benschwarz> yeah
  682. # [21:37] <benschwarz> Hixie check it in chrome
  683. # [21:37] <benschwarz> it has a progress percentage
  684. # [21:37] <Hixie> that's what i was using
  685. # [21:38] <benschwarz> mobile safari doesn't support the progress event very much :/
  686. # [21:38] <Hixie> i thought it was maybe syncing the search index, but that seemed to be a big download for just searching the toc
  687. # [21:38] <Hixie> maybe it should say "updating cache" or some such
  688. # [21:38] <benschwarz> Hixie, perhaps yeah, the label is wrong
  689. # [21:38] <Hixie> dunno what normal people would understand :-)
  690. # [21:39] <Hixie> i'm obviously not the right person to target for this :-)
  691. # [21:39] <benschwarz> these 'normal people' are web nerds
  692. # [21:40] <benschwarz> Hixie the double refresh appcache thing is really annoying though
  693. # [21:41] <Hixie> double refresh?
  694. # [21:41] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  695. # [21:44] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  696. # [21:45] <benschwarz> Hixie to clear the appcache / see the changes once synced
  697. # [21:45] <benschwarz> like what happened to you…
  698. # [21:45] <benschwarz> Hixie before I dive off to work, I wanted you to see http://germanforblack.com/articles/taking-the-web-back
  699. # [21:45] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  700. # [21:45] <Hixie> oh that's just a matter of making sure you wait for it to download and then reloading
  701. # [21:45] <Hixie> we could have it put up a little banner that says "updates ready, click here to reaload" if you want
  702. # [21:47] <Hixie> benschwarz: looks good
  703. # [21:47] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  704. # [21:49] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-hfuvjikepsnaavdm)
  705. # [21:50] * Quits: benschwarz (~benschwar@59.167.185.148) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
  706. # [21:51] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.8) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  707. # [21:54] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.8)
  708. # [21:54] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.8) (Client Quit)
  709. # [22:02] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  710. # [22:04] * Quits: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  711. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You don't have a butcher nearby?
  712. # [22:11] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.71.219)
  713. # [22:12] <Hixie> argument in favour of turning the web from using javascript to using bytecode as the basic language that browsers execute:
  714. # [22:12] <Hixie> > Bytecode contains no unnecessary bytes. No spaces, no line-endings, no tabs. Only opcodes that do precisely one thing, and only that.
  715. # [22:13] <Ms2ger> Eh?
  716. # [22:13] <Hixie> indeed
  717. # [22:14] <Hixie> see bytecode has no whitespace so there are going to be fewer bugs
  718. # [22:14] * Hixie nods encouragingly
  719. # [22:14] <zewt> because opcodes in dynamic languages don't ever do more than one thing (err)
  720. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> I see
  721. # [22:14] <bfrohs> Is THAT how that works? hahah
  722. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Was there more context that suggests this meant "less bugs"?
  723. # [22:14] <Hixie> yeah, long e-mail
  724. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> Or was it just an argument that bytecode is smaller?
  725. # [22:14] <Hixie> no, it was an argument that browser vendors wouldn't introduce as many bugs in their bytecode processor as they do in their JS processor
  726. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Oh. That's retarded.
  727. # [22:15] <zewt> heh
  728. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> How about we only allow certified programmers to publish on the web? Seems like a good way to prevent bugs
  729. # [22:15] * Quits: jer|afk (~jernoble@2620:0:1b00:1191:4c82:9e84:9704:c870) (Quit: jer|afk)
  730. # [22:15] <Hixie> dunno about retarded. Ignorant, though, yes.
  731. # [22:15] <zewt> as if most interop problems center around the JS engine
  732. # [22:15] <zewt> javascript is possibly the simplest, most obvious language in common use today
  733. # [22:16] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.71.219) (Client Quit)
  734. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> zewt, I'm not sure JS implementers would agree with that ;)
  735. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> Hixie, surely bugs are only in old code, and not in new?
  736. # [22:16] <zewt> Ms2ger: language complexity and optimized runtime complexity are entirely different things :)
  737. # [22:17] <Hixie> another argument in that e-mail: "bytecode opcodes often translate 1-on-1 to target machine instructions"
  738. # [22:17] <zewt> haha
  739. # [22:17] * Hixie is reminded of the latest "how i met your mother" episode ("oh, honey...")
  740. # [22:17] <zewt> who's trolling hixie, i wonder
  741. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Everyone knows that native machine code has no bugs.
  742. # [22:18] <Hixie> bbiab, food time
  743. # [22:21] * AryehGregor installs https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/nolijncfnkgaikbjbdaogikpmpbdcdef, awesome
  744. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> I've wanted this for a while.
  745. # [22:21] <Philip`> Hixie: Is this email from the PNaCl developers?
  746. # [22:21] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.146.236) (Quit: Martijnc)
  747. # [22:21] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, cool, didn't realize that was public yet.
  748. # [22:22] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No, the nearest proper butcher is 25km away
  749. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Move someplace better.
  750. # [22:23] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Tell Opera that :p
  751. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> A butcher as in someone who slaughters animals on-site?
  752. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Opera: Move jgraham someplace better.
  753. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No, just someone who'll cut down an animal by request.
  754. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Oh, so you give them the animal to slaughter?
  755. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> I've never seen a butcher who actually does the killing themselves.
  756. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Or what?
  757. # [22:24] * AryehGregor is confused
  758. # [22:24] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Abatoirs do the slaughtering
  759. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> In my experience, "butcher" is more or less interchangeable with "meat-seller".
  760. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> ...No, a butcher has a bunch of (dead) animals, and they'll cut it down.
  761. # [22:24] <jgraham> Butchers cut up the carcass
  762. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Oh, I see.
  763. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> My dictionary says it can mean both.
  764. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Get a better dictionary.
  765. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> And an abattoir is a slaughterhouse, not a slaughterer.
  766. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> What does your dictionary say, then?
  767. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> I don't have one.
  768. # [22:25] <jgraham> Right, the people at the slaughterhouse don't have a special name afaik
  769. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> So you rely on what, making stuff up?
  770. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> "slaughterers"
  771. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> It's worked so far!
  772. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> All my definitions are cromulent.
  773. # [22:26] <jgraham> Well yes, if you are a radical egan they are probably "murderers" or something
  774. # [22:26] <Ms2ger> It worked out with frex,frex
  775. # [22:26] * AryehGregor is probably confused in part because 90% of the discussion he's been part of regarding the slaughter of animals is specifically in the context of kosher food, which might be different and where some of the terminology is in Hebrew or Yiddish or Aramaic
  776. # [22:26] <jgraham> *vegan
  777. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> I didn't invent that one, to be fair.
  778. # [22:26] * jgraham wonders why that chrome extension isn't just a feature of google.com
  779. # [22:27] * AryehGregor too
  780. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> It seems kind of perverse.
  781. # [22:27] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  782. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> They let you say you like a result, so why not that you dislike it?
  783. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> I assume it's so we can experiment with it first.
  784. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Google Search can't experiment?
  785. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> I thought they experiment all over the place.
  786. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> Oh no, Google will save which sites we dislike!
  787. # [22:28] <zewt> they've had (on and off) the little "x" to hide individual results in pages, which is pretty useless--i've wished many times that would apply to a whole domain
  788. # [22:28] <jgraham> Anyway, the meat related conversation was quite productive because I learnt that I can buy a 16kg box containing much of a butchered lamb
  789. # [22:28] <jgraham> Which is quite exciting
  790. # [22:28] * AryehGregor is just waiting for the next experts-exchange.com or w3schools.com result to show up in a search
  791. # [22:28] * AryehGregor goes off and does a search specifically to lure in w3schools.com results
  792. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Oh man, I should trigger those purposely.
  793. # [22:28] * TabAtkins does the same.
  794. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> I actually haven't seen experts-exchange.com results recently, though.
  795. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> So I'll let that one be.
  796. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> (until I see it)
  797. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> I find that experts-exchange is roughly as useful as other medium-tier things, once you use Stylish to hide all the bullshit they put before the actual answer.
  798. # [22:29] <zewt> i'm habitually doing site:*.w3.org when i'm doing w3-related searches now, specifically to avoid w3schools
  799. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Yeah, once you know that you can scroll down to get the answer, it's not so bad.
  800. # [22:30] <zewt> even adding "w3" to a search still lands w3schools first
  801. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure they used to actually cloak the answer somehow, though.
  802. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> But they stopped at some point.
  803. # [22:30] <Philip`> zewt: Maybe add "-w3schools"?
  804. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> I'm sure that point was "when Google realized they were cloaking the answer".
  805. # [22:30] * jgraham finds that putting "foo spec" is generally good
  806. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Probably.
  807. # [22:31] * AryehGregor seconds jgraham
  808. # [22:31] <zewt> i use site: since I use it a lot in general ... which is why it's still aggrevating that you can no longer turn off the disruptive search autocomplete :|
  809. # [22:32] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  810. # [22:33] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@ppp59-167-179-123.static.internode.on.net)
  811. # [22:33] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  812. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> You mean Google Instant?
  813. # [22:34] <zewt> no, suggestions (which also kills form autocomplete in firefox)
  814. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  815. # [22:35] <zewt> that reminds me--so many times I've wished for an api to introspect existing dom event listeners, usually for greasemonkey to be able to remove them, heh
  816. # [22:36] <zewt> have never hit any cases where i needed them on an actual page, though
  817. # [22:39] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.137.222) (Quit: .)
  818. # [22:40] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-111-42.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  819. # [22:43] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  820. # [22:45] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  821. # [22:50] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  822. # [22:56] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  823. # [22:59] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-98-216-238-247.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  824. # [23:00] * Quits: nimbupani (~nimbupani@cm-84.215.128.231.getinternet.no) (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
  825. # [23:05] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-171-47-99.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  826. # [23:06] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.203.14.132)
  827. # [23:08] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.195) (Quit: othermaciej)
  828. # [23:09] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.195)
  829. # [23:11] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  830. # [23:16] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.254.139) (Quit: nn)
  831. # [23:18] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.36) (Remote host closed the connection)
  832. # [23:18] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:804e:12ca:ce93:d924)
  833. # [23:19] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
  834. # [23:19] * Quits: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@190.203.237.143) (Remote host closed the connection)
  835. # [23:20] * Joins: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@190.203.237.143)
  836. # [23:21] <Hixie> Philip`: thankfully no
  837. # [23:25] * Quits: jomn (~jomn@c80-216-13-27.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  838. # [23:32] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  839. # [23:32] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-hfuvjikepsnaavdm) (Remote host closed the connection)
  840. # [23:35] <zewt> Your message to whatwg awaits moderator approval
  841. # [23:35] <zewt> uhh. heh
  842. # [23:35] <Hixie> did it give a reason?
  843. # [23:35] <zewt> Too many recipients to the message
  844. # [23:35] <Hixie> ah
  845. # [23:35] <Hixie> let me whitelist it hold on
  846. # [23:35] <Hixie> but cut down next time :-P
  847. # [23:35] <zewt> list isn't configured for reply-all style discussion, heh
  848. # [23:36] <Hixie> well you shouldn't cc people who aren't actually who you're replying to anyway :-)
  849. # [23:37] <zewt> i can't exactly keep track of who expects a cc and who doesn't :P
  850. # [23:37] <zewt> which is no doubt why the list tends to be reply-all in the first place
  851. # [23:37] * Joins: Evet_ (~Evet@78.191.12.44)
  852. # [23:38] <Hixie> just send the mail to the people you're responding to :-)
  853. # [23:38] <Hixie> one should trim one's cc/to lists just like one should trim the context one is replying to
  854. # [23:39] * Quits: f1lt3r_bocoup (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  855. # [23:39] <zewt> that's not the actual practice on the list, or on any list i've used
  856. # [23:39] <Hixie> lead by example :-)
  857. # [23:39] * Quits: Evet (~Evet@pdpc/supporter/active/evet) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  858. # [23:40] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  859. # [23:40] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Client Quit)
  860. # [23:40] <Hixie> people often top-post and don't trim context, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do either
  861. # [23:40] * Joins: f1lt3r_bocoup (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2)
  862. # [23:40] <zewt> well, i don't think cc'ing at all is the right thing to do; i only do it because it's the practice of the list
  863. # [23:41] <Hixie> generally you should cc/to the people you want to have read/reply (respectively)
  864. # [23:41] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  865. # [23:41] <zewt> pointless when they're on the list, and of the dozens of lists i've been on nobody has ever expected people to manually edit cc lists :)
  866. # [23:42] <zewt> anyway, not that important either way
  867. # [23:43] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  868. # [23:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.belshe.com/2011/02/10/the-era-of-browser-preconnect/ is worth reading
  869. # [23:45] <MikeSmith> The downside of preconnect is a big part of why we’re working on SPDY. HTTP has been nothing short of a heroic protocol and made the Internet as we know it possible. But as we look to the next generation of rich media sites with low latencies, it is clear that today’s HTTP can’t perform at that level.
  870. # [23:45] <MikeSmith> SPDY hopes to solve much of HTTP’s connection problems while also providing better performance and better security.
  871. # [23:45] <MikeSmith> oops
  872. # [23:45] <MikeSmith> hadn't meant to paste quite all all that
  873. # [23:45] <zewt> the big thing I hope SPDY can help fix is the whole no certificate = no SSL at all problem
  874. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> hmm
  875. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> I guess that's a nice side effect
  876. # [23:46] <zewt> since from what I recall it's simply always encrypted
  877. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
  878. # [23:46] <MikeSmith> it's always using TLS
  879. # [23:47] <MikeSmith> iirc
  880. # [23:47] * Quits: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  881. # [23:48] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
  882. # [23:49] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  883. # [23:51] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  884. # [23:51] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  885. # [23:51] * Joins: ben_h (~ben@128.250.195.183)
  886. # [23:51] <zcorpan> forgive me, mime type gods, for i have sinned: i renamed a bunch of font files to .gif as to get around silly security policy on a friend's blog in order to use webfonts. good thing browsers ignore mime types
  887. # [23:52] <zewt> couldn't you at least rename them to something with no associated mime type at all, or does that not work either?
  888. # [23:52] <aho> for woff, otf, and ttf... yes
  889. # [23:53] <Hixie> heycam: did anything ever happen with the 'mixin interface' idea?
  890. # [23:53] <aho> svg fonts will likely break though, but i'm not sure if they are still required
  891. # [23:54] <heycam> Hixie, it's still likely to happen (along with those bunch of other things i mailed public-script-coord about late last year). but i can't get to editing webidl for another few weeks.
  892. # [23:54] <aho> zewt, with IIS... if the mime type isn't registered you get a 404
  893. # [23:54] <heycam> Hixie, I'll write to public-script-coord as I make big changes like that
  894. # [23:55] * heycam just sees your email now
  895. # [23:55] <zewt> haha
  896. # [23:55] <zcorpan> zewt: no, the blog software only allowed a handful of file extensions
  897. # [23:55] <zewt> i've had the fortune of never having to host anything on IIS
  898. # [23:55] <zewt> i mean to continue my streak
  899. # [23:56] <Philip`> zcorpan: Could you at least rename them to example.ttf.gif?
  900. # [23:56] <zcorpan> Philip`: that's what i did
  901. # [23:56] <aho> i called mine *.woff.txt etc :>
  902. # [23:56] <Philip`> or example.ttf.pretendingtobe.gif
  903. # [23:56] <zewt> this.is.not.a.text.file.txt
  904. # [23:57] <zcorpan> aho: i considered .txt but i thought maybe something somewhere would try to tamper with linebreaks and break the font, so i chose .gif instead
  905. # [23:57] <zewt> also helps to use a format that, if loaded blindly into a browser, will tend to just fail--if you use .txt then you'll end up spewing garbage on a person's window
  906. # [23:58] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@216.239.45.19)
  907. # [23:58] <aho> it's a shame that the bell character doesnt do anything in browsers :>
  908. # [23:58] <heycam> Hixie, (I'll respond to that mail when I context switch myself back to webidl editing in a few weeks, if that's ok)
  909. # [23:59] <aho> once i made my machine beep for over a minute by outputting some binary file on stdout... coworkers were not amused :>
  910. # Session Close: Tue Feb 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)