/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-02-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 17 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:12] <annevk> Ms2ger, just thinking it could be done automatically be extracting <dfn>
  10. # [00:12] <annevk> Ms2ger, not entirely sure that is gonna work nicely, but it might be interesting
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  12. # [00:15] <othermaciej> annevk: fonts wg telecon went reasonably well today
  13. # [00:16] <othermaciej> (though I wish Håkon had showed up)
  14. # [00:18] <annevk> he was at the Opera
  15. # [00:18] <othermaciej> so I heard
  16. # [00:18] <annevk> he tried calling me but I was away too
  17. # [00:19] <othermaciej> fortunately I'm willing to be the one guy on the call who disagrees with everyone else :-)
  18. # [00:19] <othermaciej> it seemed though that there was agreement that:
  19. # [00:19] <othermaciej> (a) font embedding restrictions should be defined by @font-face, not by WOFF
  20. # [00:19] <othermaciej> (b) the way to change from the default restrictions should be From-Origin (or whatever the name is) not CORS
  21. # [00:20] <othermaciej> only remaining point of disagreement was whether @font-face should default to From-Origin: same
  22. # [00:20] <othermaciej> but I think everyone at least understood the issues
  23. # [00:20] <annevk> that's some nice progress
  24. # [00:21] <annevk> sweet
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  26. # [00:22] <annevk> whoa, Ms2ger pushes to W3C too now
  27. # [00:23] <annevk> I guess all I have to do now is write
  28. # [00:23] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#trees
  29. # [00:24] <annevk> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#nodes-model are the major changes
  30. # [00:25] <annevk> and event dispatching is now based on this too to allow for Indexed DB
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  33. # [00:27] <othermaciej> so it allows trees other than DOM Node trees?
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  36. # [00:27] <annevk> apparently that is what Indexed DB wants
  37. # [00:28] <othermaciej> neat
  38. # [00:29] <othermaciej> maybe it also makes it easier to spec how Window takes part in event dispatch
  39. # [00:29] <annevk> yeah, though I don't want that in this spec
  40. # [00:29] <annevk> that should be in HTML or a browsing context spec (if we ever get one of those)
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  46. # [00:45] <jennb> Hixie: ping
  47. # [00:51] <zewt> annevk: step 3 of event invocation sounds like event.target gets set to the first node the event is invoked on (eg. the root node during capture phase) and then left there
  48. # [00:52] <zewt> ah, it's also set by step 4 of dispatch ... so that's if invocation happens when not during dispatch?
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  50. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> Does anyone know how long typical TLS handshake caching lasts in practice?
  51. # [00:54] <Hixie> jennb: here now
  52. # [00:54] <AryehGregor> Like an hour, a day, indefinitely?
  53. # [00:54] <jennb> Hixie: can you take a quick look at https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=54582 and see if the small change proposed is acceptable?
  54. # [00:55] <Hixie> looking
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  58. # [00:56] <Hixie> jennb: is https://bug-54582-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=82686 a valid test case for this?
  59. # [00:56] <jennb> Hixie: yes
  60. # [00:56] <Hixie> i guess it depends on the browser default not being UTF-8
  61. # [00:57] <jennb> Hixie: true...
  62. # [00:57] <Hixie> hold on, let me use my harness for these tests to check it in other browsers
  63. # [00:57] <jennb> Hixie: I checked manually on Firefox, Chrome and Safari.
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  65. # [00:58] <zewt> it repros for me in Chrome: renders correctly with the meta tag, mojibake without it
  66. # [00:59] <zewt> (odd, I'd expect browsers to default to UTF-8 for local files by now, but in any case)
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  69. # [01:00] <Hixie> jennb: there's something more going on than is described in that bug, given the behaviour i'm seeing in other browsers on http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/142.html
  70. # [01:01] <Hixie> IE8, FF trunk, Opera trunk, Safari WebKit trunk, and Chrome dev trunk all do the same thing on that test
  71. # [01:01] <Hixie> and that is not what the bug claims they do, unless i'm misunderstanding the bug
  72. # [01:03] <jennb> Hixie: 142.html doesn't test mispelled 'content'
  73. # [01:03] <zewt> "Generally speaking, making parsing more strict is rarely helpful." there's a controversial claim if ever there was one. heh
  74. # [01:03] <annevk> zewt, I think you spotted something that can be removed now
  75. # [01:04] <zewt> annevk: as long as the only reference to "invoke" is the one in "dispatch", then I think so
  76. # [01:05] <Hixie> jennb: it spells it "cotent"
  77. # [01:05] <zewt> is there a way to tell whether a particular part of a spec is meant to be referenced externally? for example, "dispatch an event" defines something other specs make use of, but "invoke an event" is just an internal "helper function" that probably shouldn't be referred to directly externally
  78. # [01:06] <zewt> _invoke_an_event? heh
  79. # [01:06] <jennb> Hixie: hmmm... i see that now. yet it passes...
  80. # [01:06] <jennb> Hixie: oh, it's supposed to fail, according to that bug.
  81. # [01:06] <Hixie> all the browsers do the same thing
  82. # [01:06] <annevk> zewt, it's leftover from https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/6c7a0c465d83
  83. # [01:06] <jennb> Hixie: i'm confused now
  84. # [01:07] <Hixie> which is consistent with what the spec says (the test's "pass" condition is what the spec says)
  85. # [01:07] <annevk> zewt, there's no conventions
  86. # [01:07] <Hixie> jennb: (reload the test, you may be looking at an old version where i had the pass condition backwards)
  87. # [01:07] <annevk> zewt, maybe besides concept- we should have internal- or some such
  88. # [01:07] <annevk> zewt, so it's clear from the title=
  89. # [01:08] <annevk> (which is what's used for cross-references)
  90. # [01:08] <jennb> Hixie: yup, reloading changed to fail
  91. # [01:08] <Hixie> jennb: all my browsers show "pass"
  92. # [01:08] <Hixie> jennb: are you testing with your patch?
  93. # [01:08] <Hixie> jennb: (your patch would make it say "fail")
  94. # [01:10] <annevk> zewt, fixed
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  97. # [01:10] <annevk> zewt, I hope you are Glenn btw
  98. # [01:10] <zewt> yep
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  101. # [01:11] <annevk> anyway, should've been asleep long ago once again; maybe I can figure out some stuff on the plan tomorrow
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  103. # [01:12] <annevk> such as how to structure the initial sections and how assimilate the borrowed terminology
  104. # [01:12] <annevk> how to*
  105. # [01:12] <jennb> Hixie: On released Chrome, "fail". On Chrome dev trunk, "pass". That's what I expect.
  106. # [01:12] <annevk> and plan should read plane
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  108. # [01:12] <jennb> Hixie: The bug wants 142.html to select Windows-1252 like it used to.
  109. # [01:13] <Hixie> jennb: matching IE8 seems like a better goal than matching an old Chrome
  110. # [01:14] <Hixie> jennb: especially when Firefox and Opera agree with IE8
  111. # [01:14] <jennb> Hixie: released FF gives me "fail" on 142.html test
  112. # [01:15] <Hixie> jennb: yeah but that's a separate bug
  113. # [01:15] <Hixie> jennb: they don't treat 8859-9 as -1254
  114. # [01:15] <Hixie> jennb: the point is they get 1254/8859-9 rather than 1252/8859-1
  115. # [01:16] <jennb> Hixie: oh, i see. My IE also gives me "pass". 
  116. # [01:16] <jennb> Hixie: i'll add a note to the bug that IE8 behaviour.
  117. # [01:16] <jennb> s/that/about
  118. # [01:16] <zewt> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/142.html in FF3.6 is "fail", FWIW
  119. # [01:17] <Hixie> zewt: see above, it's a pass for the purposes of this discussion
  120. # [01:17] <Hixie> the failure is the failure you see on 003.html
  121. # [01:17] <Hixie> not the failure we're testing
  122. # [01:18] <zewt> i mean re: '<Hixie> jennb: all my browsers show "pass"'
  123. # [01:18] <jennb> zewt: that was before I reloaded his test.
  124. # [01:19] <Hixie> zewt: ff3.6 shows "pass" if you ignore the fact that it actually says "fail" and just look at the actual results :-P
  125. # [01:19] <ap> Hixie: ff3.6 says "Encoding used by browser is: Windows-1252"
  126. # [01:19] <zewt> ignoring the result, "Encoding used by browser is: Windows-1252", eg. it picks up "cotent"
  127. # [01:19] <Hixie> it does?
  128. # [01:19] <Hixie> huh
  129. # [01:19] <Hixie> well, ff4 uses 1254
  130. # [01:20] <Hixie> i wonder if they have the same regression on that page then
  131. # [01:20] <ap> Hixie: could also be complicated by content-based encoding sniffer in Firefox
  132. # [01:21] <Hixie> that test should be safe from that
  133. # [01:21] <zewt> yeah, i also see ISO-8859-9 used in FF4b11
  134. # [01:21] <jennb> if FF has improved their charset detection, we should too. ;-)
  135. # [01:21] <ap> Hixie: they do have the same regression on actual page, yes
  136. # [01:21] <Hixie> interesting
  137. # [01:21] <Hixie> does the actual page work in IE8?
  138. # [01:21] <Hixie> (i have IE8 up here if you can pass me the URL)
  139. # [01:22] <ap> Hixie: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=54582 (you need to log in, not just open the url)
  140. # [01:22] <ap> Hixie: ugh, not sure if I can share the credentials :(
  141. # [01:24] <Hixie> well i can promise that i won't abuse them, since i don't understand a word of this site :-)
  142. # [01:26] <Hixie> ok i got to log in
  143. # [01:26] <Hixie> looks like it works fine in IE8
  144. # [01:26] <Hixie> dunno why though
  145. # [01:28] <Hixie> the page i get doesn't have a misspelt charset decl
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  148. # [01:29] <Hixie> wfm in firefox too!
  149. # [01:29] <Hixie> (trunk)
  150. # [01:29] <Hixie> the decl is:
  151. # [01:29] <Hixie> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />
  152. # [01:29] <Hixie> did they just fix this or am i going crazy?
  153. # [01:30] <ap> Hixie: I'm still seeing "contet" with a typo
  154. # [01:30] <ap> Hixie: even when spoofing UA string in Safari
  155. # [01:30] <Hixie> oh wait
  156. # [01:30] <Hixie> i didn't follow the rest of the intstructions
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  158. # [01:30] <Hixie> don't mind me
  159. # [01:31] <Hixie> IE8 is broken too
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  161. # [01:31] <ap> Hixie: oh. I guess we shouldn't care then
  162. # [01:31] <Hixie> I vote that we don't fix this. Every browsers is going to have this page broken in the same way in the coming months anyway.
  163. # [01:31] <Hixie> they'll fix it.
  164. # [01:31] <Hixie> interop ftw?
  165. # [01:32] <zewt> heh the key to breaking broken pages: get every browser to expose the bug simultaneously
  166. # [01:34] <jennb> I'll update the bug.
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  170. # [01:36] <jennb> Hixie: thanks for checking all the browsers.
  171. # [01:36] <Hixie> np
  172. # [01:37] <Hixie> thanks for bringing it to my attention :-)
  173. # [01:37] <Hixie> it's nice to see all this work we're doing is actually bringing browsers together, even if we're having to break a few eggs in the process
  174. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> :)
  175. # [01:38] <zewt> breaking rotton eggs--at least do it outside
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  181. # [01:38] <zewt> also rotten
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  186. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> maxlength=30 on an address field.
  187. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> That is just lame.
  188. # [01:40] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@5ED0FB8A.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  189. # [01:41] <Hixie> live somewhere shorter dude
  190. # [01:41] <Hixie> wait, you're in NY
  191. # [01:41] <zewt> heh
  192. # [01:41] <Hixie> aren't your addresses like optimally compressed already
  193. # [01:41] <Hixie> 23rd NE 5th Ave #123
  194. # [01:41] <Hixie> or some such nonsense
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  196. # [01:42] <zewt> worse is "verify your email address" fields with onpaste="return false"
  197. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Street names are short, avenue names can be long.
  198. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Apartment number adds to the length.
  199. # [01:42] <zewt> i get annoyed enough at those that I open the DOM and remove the attribute before typing my address twice for no reason
  200. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> I often remove annoying maxlength attributes from the DOM, on the theory that anyone stupid enough to add such a useless check is also stupid enough to not do a server-side check.
  201. # [01:42] <Hixie> zewt: i do that too (though i just always c/p :-) )
  202. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Usually I'm right.
  203. # [01:43] <Hixie> hear hear
  204. # [01:43] <zewt> that's the point--it prevents copy and paste on your email address
  205. # [01:43] <Hixie> i mean i remove the attribute and type it once and copy it, not type it twice :-P
  206. # [01:45] <zewt> one time I pasted my phone number into a phone box, and the scripts on the page took the "123-123-1234" i pasted, took "123-123-12" (presumably it tried to remove hyphens in key events), and then refused to let me focus the field again--every time i clicked the field it went "this field's already done!" and focused the next field
  207. # [01:45] <zewt> sometimes pages feel like they were written by the three stooges
  208. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> On a somewhat related note, does anyone else find Chrome's autofill feature incredibly haphazard and confusing?
  209. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> For me, it stores like ten different versions of the same info, with varying levels of completeness, which it often puts in random places when I select one of them.
  210. # [01:46] <Hixie> yes but no worse than any other browsers'
  211. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> I don't think I've used any other browsers'.
  212. # [01:46] <Hixie> i've never had them work for me
  213. # [01:47] <zewt> firefox is always remembering my credit card information. heh
  214. # [01:47] <zewt> "uh ... thanks?"
  215. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> But surely you could make it *slightly* saner. Like attempting to merge the ten autofill entries that are all "Aryeh Gregor".
  216. # [01:48] <zewt> this page makes me lose all hope: http://www.gmacmortgage.com/
  217. # [01:49] <zewt> ("spot the problem in under five seconds")
  218. # [01:49] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  219. # [01:50] <AryehGregor> "Flash"
  220. # [01:50] <zewt> well, that's the underlying problem, but not the important one
  221. # [01:50] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: "Saviour of the universe"?
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  223. # [01:51] <zewt> it's a login page that isn't https ... and you can be sure no regular users notice
  224. # [01:51] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@5ED0FB8A.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  225. # [01:51] <hober> gsnedders AryehGregor: Terminator X it!
  226. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> Not using HTTPS is a noteworthy problem in your books?
  227. # [01:51] <zewt> for a login page?
  228. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> What percentage of login pages actually use HTTPS?
  229. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> Like 0.2%?
  230. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> The large majority of sites don't support HTTPS for anything at all.
  231. # [01:52] <zewt> for pages where you pay your mortgage?
  232. # [01:52] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@92.17.28.80)
  233. # [01:52] <zewt> i've never once seen an online store or anything else that deals with payment/financial information that isn't https
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  235. # [01:53] <zewt> now, the login mechanism underneith is flash, and presumably *that* part is still encrypted ... but as it's http, you could MITM it trivially
  236. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> If the site's main page doesn't use HTTPS, you can MITM it anyway, unless you expect the user to notice that the login page is missing the lock icon.
  237. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> (example: http://www.amazon.com)
  238. # [01:56] <zewt> well, normally you do do that--if your main page isn't http, you redirect to https to authenticate, so the https indicators are on
  239. # [01:56] <zewt> but that's just the problem--https depends on users noticing that, and they don't, ever
  240. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> Which is why everyone needs to use STS instead.
  241. # [01:56] <Hixie> there have been studies on this
  242. # [01:57] <Hixie> users do check for the lock
  243. # [01:57] <Hixie> iirc about 25% of people check for the lock in the content area
  244. # [01:57] <Hixie> (and ignore hte browser chrome)
  245. # [01:57] <Hixie> some proportion check for the "https" and ignore the broken-lock warnings
  246. # [01:57] <Hixie> etc
  247. # [01:57] <zewt> Hixie: if that was the case, I'd expect this page to have been fixed long ago--the fact that they don't use http suggests that they don't receive many complaints about it
  248. # [01:58] <Hixie> i don't have any data on this specific case
  249. # [01:58] <zewt> maybe they get lots of complaints and just ignore them all; don't know
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  252. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> Look, a useful and detailed bug report from Microsoft: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12091
  253. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> I guess they've done those before, to be fair.
  254. # [02:00] <zewt> of course, this particular case is broken and insecure, which implies massive incompetence--so I suppose the "receives and ignores complaints" possibility isn't a small one
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  320. # [05:11] <wirepair> starting to think CORS was a bad idea.
  321. # [05:12] <wirepair> i've been finding more problems with old code that expectes xhr.open('GET', user_input_url, true); to be 'safe'
  322. # [05:12] <wirepair> :/
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  430. # [08:50] <estellevw> Does anyone know if there is any browser support for image() fallbacks. The 2009 spec reads body {background-image: image(wavy.svg, wavy.png 150dpi, wavy.gif or blue);}
  431. # [08:52] <estellevw> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-images/#image-notation
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  451. # [10:04] <zcorpan> wirepair: should we all do the ie way with a different constructor?
  452. # [10:05] <zcorpan> XDomainRequest or what it's called
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  466. # [10:27] <mikeke> Hello all, I have a quick question about the history API
  467. # [10:29] <mikeke> is there something like the same domain policy on it?
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  513. # [13:02] <annevk> on the train in Sweden
  514. # [13:02] <annevk> it has the wireless
  515. # [13:02] <annevk> MikeSmith, you around?
  516. # [13:02] <annevk> MikeSmith, was wondering about Web Notifications
  517. # [13:03] <jgraham> Sweden?
  518. # [13:03] <jgraham> Also, lucky you :) They're not all that nice
  519. # [13:04] <annevk> Stockholm for a few days
  520. # [13:04] <jgraham> Unless by "the wireless" you just mean radio ;)
  521. # [13:04] <annevk> will come visit you early March :)
  522. # [13:04] <jgraham> Yes, it is written on out whiteboard
  523. # [13:04] <jgraham> *our
  524. # [13:04] <annevk> haha
  525. # [13:05] <annevk> hg push works
  526. # [13:05] <annevk> and I saw they have 4G here too
  527. # [13:05] <annevk> up to 80mbit
  528. # [13:06] <annevk> at home I've 120mbit, but that's wired
  529. # [13:08] <jgraham> Only in Stockholm though
  530. # [13:08] <jgraham> afaik
  531. # [13:10] * davve is now known as davve__
  532. # [13:11] <jgraham> Oh, Malmö, Göteborg + Karlskrona
  533. # [13:11] <jgraham> And more polling out this year
  534. # [13:11] <jgraham> *rolling
  535. # [13:11] <annevk> neat neat
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  537. # [13:11] <annevk> guess Linkoping has too much students for it to be interesting as a starting point
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  540. # [13:13] <jgraham> 550 SEK/month is not cheap
  541. # [13:13] <jgraham> And it looks like the dongle things have the same crappy build quality (and probably the same crappy drivers) as the 3G ones
  542. # [13:14] <annevk> seems we have arrived
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  567. # [14:47] <beowulf> anyone know which browsers implement w3c widgets?
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  570. # [14:58] <zcorpan> i know opera does
  571. # [14:59] * hsivonen isn't aware of any non-Opera browser supporting them
  572. # [14:59] <hsivonen> I hear Apache has a non-browser widget runtime
  573. # [15:00] <hsivonen> and darobin had at least a prototype-level Gecko-based runtime
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  581. # [15:06] * zcorpan kills the 5 on http://forums.whatwg.org/
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  586. # [15:08] <beowulf> cool, thanks
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  592. # [15:20] <jgraham> So if I have <table><form><input> and I remove/reinsert the <input> from the DOM, what form (if any) should it end up associated with?
  593. # [15:28] <zcorpan> jgraham: i think the spec has an algorithm for removing/inserting form controls
  594. # [15:28] <zcorpan> jgraham: which iirc kills the parser's form pointer association and just checks form="" and ancestors
  595. # [15:29] <jgraham> zcorpan: That's what I think too
  596. # [15:29] <jgraham> But I am being held to account for not thinking that two years ago
  597. # [15:30] <jgraham> So I wonder if the spec changed or I am not reading it right now
  598. # [15:30] <jgraham> Also, that's not what Gecko/WebKit do
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  605. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> wonder if anybody has taken a look at http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-test-methodology-20100128/
  606. # [15:50] <hsivonen> documents whose title starts with "A Method for" make me think "patent! run away, run away"
  607. # [15:50] <hsivonen> well, at least it's not "Apparatus and Method"
  608. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> heh
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  614. # [15:59] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I have scanned it before
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  634. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> anybody know how much hardware support OpenSL ES has?
  635. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.khronos.org/opensles/
  636. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> "OpenSL ES™ is a royalty-free, cross-platform, hardware-accelerated audio API tuned for embedded systems"
  637. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: any opinion on the http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-test-methodology-20100128/ idea… it seems to mostly just amount to putting IDs on all testable assertions in a spec
  638. # [17:01] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I think my opinion is roughly "I'm glad I'm not trying to convince Hixie to do that"
  639. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> heh
  640. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> indeed
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  643. # [17:04] <Philip`> HTML5 doesn't have a 1:1 correspondence between assertions and elements
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  645. # [17:05] <Philip`> or between assertions and continuous sequences of text
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  647. # [17:05] * Martijnc_ is now known as Martijnc
  648. # [17:06] <Philip`> e.g. it often says "If X, you must Y. Otherwise, you must Z." where the testable assertions are identifiable as "If X, you must Y" and "If X, [...] Otherwise you must Z"
  649. # [17:07] <Philip`> (You don't want the assertion to just be identified as "Otherwise you must Z" because that loses a critical part of the context)
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  652. # [17:08] <Philip`> With the canvas tests I have assertion patterns like
  653. # [17:08] <Philip`> "When the UA is passed an empty string<^> <...> then it *must* return null."
  654. # [17:08] <Philip`> "When the UA is passed <...> a string specifying a context that it does not support<^>, then it *must* return null."
  655. # [17:08] <Philip`> for that kind of thing
  656. # [17:08] <MikeSmith> OK
  657. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> so you're saying your annotations-injection mechanism handles those cases correctly?
  658. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> the one you're using for the annotated canvas spec, I mean
  659. # [17:09] <Philip`> where <...> means any number of characters (within the current paragraph), and <^> means that's where the annotation should be rendered in the spec, and *must* means that's the relevant normative keyword
  660. # [17:10] <Philip`> Yeah, the <...> thing means it's possible for the assertion to include the relevant context without including irrelevant phrases in the middle of the sentence (which might be part of a different assertion)
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  662. # [17:11] <Philip`> HTML sadly is tree-structured so you can't really do that in the markup
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  664. # [17:12] <Philip`> (at least not without rewriting the text)
  665. # [17:13] <Philip`> (and I don't think rewriting the text of HTML5 would be a necessarily good idea)
  666. # [17:13] <jcranmer> starting over from scratch is always a good thing
  667. # [17:14] <jcranmer> just ask the developers of Duke Nukem Forever
  668. # [17:14] <jgraham> Curiously this is quite close to the first use case I heard for graph-like markup which was annotating the bible
  669. # [17:15] <jgraham> Which I assume, without having any particular knowledge, has similar problems
  670. # [17:15] <Philip`> I imagine people would object if you started over from scratch on the Bible
  671. # [17:16] <jgraham> Well it would be nice to replace the glaring factual errors</flamebait>
  672. # [17:16] <jcranmer> Philip`: it's called the Koran ;-)
  673. # [17:17] * jgraham wasn't under the impression that the people who wrote the Koran started out with the Bible and decided to rewrite it from scratch
  674. # [17:18] <jcranmer> well, arguably, everyone who starts their own religion and eschews older texts and writes their own is arguable rewriting it from scratch
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  712. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> jgraham: see my reply on testing requirement thread
  713. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> I just created http://www.w3.org/wiki/TestInfra/goals
  714. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> or rather, copied content we had elsewhere over to there
  715. # [18:55] <wilhelm> Cool.
  716. # [18:55] <wilhelm> Re: “allow more than one way to test functionality: … anything else?”, I'd like to know what other browser vendors are doing for tests that require some sort of human interaction. Requiring humans to validate test results doesn't scale.
  717. # [18:57] <wilhelm> There are Watir and WebDriver implementations for all major browsers now, with varying degrees of vendor support.
  718. # [18:57] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Gecko and WebKit pretty much don't do any, just rely upon bugs from users of nightlies, AFAIK
  719. # [18:59] <wilhelm> Opera has a test suite for user interaction with forms with a few hundred tests we could probably contribute. That uses the Watir API and emulates real clicks and keyboard events. The same approach might be useful for other features too.
  720. # [19:01] <wilhelm> gsnedders: Then this might be a good time to decide on something everyone can use in the future. (c:
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  723. # [19:03] <gsnedders> wilhelm: WebKit also has https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/Writing%20Layout%20Tests%20for%20DumpRenderTree#DumpRenderTreeJavaScriptEnvironment
  724. # [19:04] <wilhelm> Yes, I've seen that one. Looks useful.
  725. # [19:05] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Gecko does something similar at a JS level for testing interaction stuff
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  769. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> Gecko has non-automated litmus tests too
  770. # [20:36] <Ms2ger> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Litmus_tests
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  774. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: odd choice of a name for a class of tests
  775. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> is the name meant to be ironic?
  776. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Dunno, why?
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  778. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litmus_test_(politics)
  779. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> that term has negative connotations
  780. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> seems like it's normally a pejorative term
  781. # [20:55] <othermaciej> in the context of politics it has acquired such a connotation
  782. # [20:55] <othermaciej> but the original term from science is neutral
  783. # [20:55] * Ms2ger assumes chemistry is a more likely source
  784. # [20:55] <othermaciej> and it seems totally reasonable to have a binary pass-fail test for software
  785. # [20:56] <othermaciej> well, acid vs. base isn't really a good vs. bad judgment
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  789. # [21:03] <mikekelly> anyone about?
  790. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> Nooooooooooooooooooooo
  791. # [21:04] <mikekelly> :-)
  792. # [21:04] <mikekelly> I've got an edge-case HTTP behaviour I was wondering if it had been considered on the browser side..
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  795. # [21:05] <mikekelly> If a 200 response to /foo has a Content-Location header of /foo.html - is it feasible for browsers to adjust their address bar appropriately?
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  797. # [21:07] <mikekelly> same thing for a 201 as well
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  802. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> That sounds like it's exploitable to prevent users from copying URLs from the URL bar.
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  804. # [21:20] <mikekelly> AryehGregor: does the history api suffer from that problem?
  805. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Dunno about the history API.
  806. # [21:21] <mikekelly> I assume it would, don't know for sure though
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  809. # [21:27] <gsnedders> mikekelly: It would be backwards incompatible with deployed content (which relies upon the header being ignored)
  810. # [21:29] <mikekelly> gsnedders: what sort of deployed content are you thinking of, are there any examples?
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  815. # [21:34] <gsnedders> mikekelly: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=http://support.microsoft.com:80/support/kb/articles/q218/1/80.asp&NoWebContent=1
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  822. # [21:38] <mikekelly> gsnedders: that's a bug, right?
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  824. # [21:39] <gsnedders> mikekelly: It's a bug in IIS, yes. But until all the servers using buggy versions of IIS are gone, there's no way browsers are even going to seriously consider supported Content-Location.
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  826. # [21:43] <mikekelly> gsnedders: so browsers never make changes that could break buggy applications?
  827. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> They never make changes that will cause their users to complain significantly, unless the practical benefit is really worth it.
  828. # [21:46] <gsnedders> mikekelly: Pretty much. If a site works in version x of a browser and not in version x + 1, users assume the browser is buggy and try another browser.
  829. # [21:46] <mikekelly> AryehGregor: practical to who'm ?
  830. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> To the browser implementers.
  831. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Or, by extension, their users.
  832. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Or, by extension, the authors of the pages their users visit.
  833. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> (since their goal is to make users happy)
  834. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> (their users)
  835. # [21:47] <mikekelly> as an author I can tell you that this CL behaviour would be greatly beneficial
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  838. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Doesn't matter, if it will cause too many users to complain to the browser implementers.
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  840. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Even if it didn't, I very much doubt your claim that this will be greatly beneficial to the author of almost any page that browser users visit, weighted by popularity.
  841. # [21:50] <mikekelly> maybe we could meet half way and look at trialling an additional X-Content-Location header with same behaviour?
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  845. # [21:52] <mikekelly> gsnedders: if we did the above we have the best of both worlds
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  851. # [21:57] <mikekelly> or better "X-Content-Location-Display: true"
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  870. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> Reftests almost done...
  871. # [22:48] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: For what?
  872. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> For running them
  873. # [22:48] * Quits: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2) (Read error: Operation timed out)
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  876. # [22:52] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: And there you had more all excited about more tests. :(
  877. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> Go review AryehGregor's ):
  878. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> Or :), even
  879. # [22:53] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Quit: bentruyman)
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  881. # [23:02] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  883. # [23:05] * Ms2ger will upload tomorrow
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  898. # [23:30] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  900. # [23:33] <zewt> heh, is mozilla's tracker *intended* to be impossible to search, with robots.txt preventing it from being indexed...
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  905. # Session Close: Fri Feb 18 00:00:00 2011

The end :)