/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:01] <jgraham> zewt: What exactly is the bug?
  7. # [00:02] <jgraham> With sync tests and onload?
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  10. # [00:03] <jgraham> It *should* only mark the tests as complete if num_pending is 0, which *should* only happen if there are no uncompleted async tests
  11. # [00:03] <zewt> if you run a sync test after onload, test() -> test_obj.done() -> tests.result() -> tests.notify_result -> tests.complete()
  12. # [00:03] <zewt> right, but I was only using sync tests, with no async ones at all
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  14. # [00:03] <jgraham> That sounds like expected behaviour
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  16. # [00:04] <jgraham> I mean, how do you expect it to know that you will add a sync test at some point in the future?
  17. # [00:04] <zewt> seems strange that you can only run one sync test unless you start a placeholder async one
  18. # [00:04] <jgraham> You can have > 0 sync tests as long as you define them to run before onload fires
  19. # [00:04] <zewt> well, i think it's trying to be too magic--don't try to figure out when I'm done, give me a "finishedWithAllTests" to call
  20. # [00:04] * abarth|zZz is now known as abarth
  21. # [00:04] <jgraham> There is
  22. # [00:05] <zewt> but they have to run after onload, since they need to load iframes
  23. # [00:05] <jgraham> But it is off by default
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  25. # [00:05] <jgraham> * == Determining when all tests are complete ==
  26. # [00:05] <jgraham> *
  27. # [00:05] <jgraham> * By default the test harness will assume there are no more results to come
  28. # [00:05] <jgraham> * when:
  29. # [00:05] <jgraham> * 1) There are no Test objects that have been created but not completed
  30. # [00:05] <jgraham> * 2) The load event on the document has fired
  31. # [00:05] <jgraham> *
  32. # [00:05] <jgraham> * This behaviour can be overridden by setting the explicit_done property to true
  33. # [00:05] <jgraham> * in a call to setup(). If explicit_done is true, the test harness will not assume
  34. # [00:05] <jgraham> * it is done until the global done() function is called. Once done() is called, the
  35. # [00:06] <jgraham> * two conditions above apply like normal.
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  37. # [00:07] <zewt> k
  38. # [00:07] <jgraham> In the futuure the default could change
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  45. # [00:17] <erlehmann> the body thing on the list is pretty strange
  46. # [00:17] <erlehmann> what the hell is this usario thinking?
  47. # [00:18] <zewt> "i found a spec mailing list and I want to suggest something"
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  51. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: He's obvious fallen into the trap of solving an attractively easy problem without checking to see if it's actually a problem.
  52. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> In this case, "'body' doesn't sound like a properly semantic name for the page content".
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  64. # [00:37] <zewt> i'm trying not to read this <body> thread but driving past a car crash, etc
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  67. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Mute it. It's not worth reading. He doesn't want to provide a problem.
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  70. # [00:40] <erlehmann> tabAtkins, there was a nice talk about “how to fail at teaching people stuff” from kathrin passig at re:publica 2010. step 1: wait until they think they have a problem. :)
  71. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> I already asked him clearly and unambiguously to find out what problem he's trying to solve. ^_^
  72. # [00:41] <zewt> careful; he's more likely to interpret that as "retroactively find a problem to justify the change you started at"
  73. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> That's not an issue; you can then just point out that the problem isn't important.
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  83. # [01:01] <erlehmann> tabAtkins, this may or may not be fun. happy trolling :)
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  101. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> "I believe what implementors present at TPAC agreed to is that we do not like mutation events and want them to die in a fire." Why?
  102. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> Bad performance, hard to implement, underdefined?
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  105. # [01:33] <Dashiva> Yes
  106. # [01:33] <Dashiva> All three
  107. # [01:33] <Dashiva> There's been some work to define an alternate solution that satisfies the practical use cases without suffering from the same problems
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  119. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> Whoa, paths on Windows are a maximum of 256 characters in the standard APIs?
  120. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> That's amazingly lame, even for Windows.
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  123. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The mortal sin of mutation events is that they're defined to fire sync, which means that you immediately get re-entrancy problems - a function may mutate the DOM, then the mutation event runs, possible changing the DOM underneath the function. Mutation events can even fire syncly during other mutation events. This is crazytimes.
  124. # [02:03] <AryehGregor> Ouch.
  125. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah, mutation-events-inside-mutation-events are a sure route to stale pointer issues in teh browser implementation.
  126. # [02:04] <othermaciej> they also suck for perf
  127. # [02:04] <othermaciej> since dynamically allocating events for every DOM mutation is super expensive
  128. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> Further, mutation events suffer from the same problem as the key* family, where a single type of event is fired for *everything*, and you have to decide inside the listener if youa ctually wanted to listen to it or not.
  129. # [02:05] <Philip`> AryehGregor: No, it's not limited to 256 characters
  130. # [02:06] <Philip`> It's limited to 260 (including the drive identifier and terminating null)
  131. # [02:06] <AryehGregor> Ah, that's better, then.
  132. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> They'd be much less painful if they were async and were changed so you could listen to specific things, like "I want to be notified when this specific attribute on this specific element is changed".
  133. # [02:06] <Philip`> MAX_PATH is 260, so lots of applications have fixed-size buffers that won't cope with longer paths, I think
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  135. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> (Similar to how key* would be better if you could say "I want to listen for when the user presses an arrow key".
  136. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Specifically, Explorer.
  137. # [02:08] <zewt> explorer could deal with it if Microsoft updated it to use whatever the newer APIs are that don't have that limitation; I imagine they don't since no other applications support it (chicken/egg)
  138. # [02:08] <zewt> it's pretty funny that you can create file trees in explorer that you can then not delete
  139. # [02:09] <zewt> (without playing filename puzzle games to reduce path lengths)
  140. # [02:09] <AryehGregor> What I really want is an API that lets me run some code immediately before or after an element is added to the DOM that matches a particular CSS selector.
  141. # [02:09] <AryehGregor> E.g., if I have something where I want to change the state somehow immediately when it's added to the page, for whatever reason.
  142. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> "immediately before" is hard.
  143. # [02:09] <Hixie> by immediately you mean synchronously?
  144. # [02:09] <AryehGregor> Like because I want the default appearance to differ between scripting and non-scripting UAs.
  145. # [02:09] <Hixie> if so, that's the problem with mutation events.
  146. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> Unless you make the DOM mutatino APIs async.
  147. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> I want something that behaves like inserting a <script> tag immediately before or after the open or close tag of a particular element.
  148. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> So that I don't have to, you know, actually do that.
  149. # [02:10] <AryehGregor> This is particularly significant with CSP, where you can't use inline script.
  150. # [02:11] <Hixie> "use xbl" :-)
  151. # [02:11] <AryehGregor> So you have no way to emulate the effect at all that I know of.
  152. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> component model
  153. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> /component model, that is
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  158. # [02:36] <zewt> heh, seems like neither browser with tab-modal alerts really handles background prompting very well
  159. # [02:37] <zewt> opera only sets the tab to "new" (blue tab text), which isn't noticable at all; ff4 is on the other side of the spectrum, letting the tab steal focus outright, which seems like too much
  160. # [02:37] <zewt> i'd think they'd mimic windows's taskbar notification flash, which seems about the right level of attention-grabbing
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  168. # [03:06] <zewt> Showing results for w3 xml. Search instead for w3 xbl <- google seriously needs an I-know-how-to-type-so-stop-correcting-me option
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  338. # [08:49] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, activation behavior didn't really seem appropriate
  339. # [08:50] <Hixie> hm?
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  344. # [08:54] <annevk> Hixie, to define in DOM Core
  345. # [08:54] <Hixie> oh i didn't mean activation behaviour
  346. # [08:54] <Hixie> that's defined in html
  347. # [08:54] <annevk> ooh, wait, interaction events
  348. # [08:54] <Hixie> i meant the actual mapping of devices to events
  349. # [08:54] <annevk> yeah, that shouldn't either
  350. # [08:54] <Hixie> right
  351. # [08:54] <Hixie> still needs a spec though
  352. # [08:55] <annevk> mouse events should be part of CSS hit testing imo
  353. # [08:55] <Hixie> if doug wants to write it, that would be awesome
  354. # [08:56] <annevk> Shelley Powers volunteers to write the WHATWG Weekly
  355. # [08:57] * Joins: lumely_ (~lumely@dhcp2-186.slis.tsukuba.ac.jp)
  356. # [08:57] <Hixie> is she willing to do it politely and objectively?
  357. # [08:58] <annevk> dunno, and she hasn't been on IRC yet
  358. # [08:58] <annevk> but what we do mostly with first-time contributors on the blog is that an admin quickly reviews it
  359. # [08:58] <annevk> so that should be fine
  360. # [08:58] <Hixie> worksforme
  361. # [08:59] <Hixie> if she can actually do it usefully that would be awesome
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  363. # [08:59] <Hixie> you and mark have done a really useful job :-)
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  366. # [09:04] <foolip> Microsoft committed to implementing SMPTE-TT?
  367. # [09:04] <foolip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0017.html
  368. # [09:04] <foolip> "But in any case I at least am implementing support for SMPTE-TT."
  369. # [09:05] <annevk> the title of xkcd comics is often the best :)
  370. # [09:05] <othermaciej_> I don't think Sean Hayes is on the IE team
  371. # [09:05] <othermaciej_> though he has in the past referred to implementing TTML in Silverlight
  372. # [09:06] <annevk> and with that I mean title="", not <h2> or whatever he is using
  373. # [09:06] <foolip> I do hope we can actually agree on 1 format for text...
  374. # [09:06] <foolip> the world will rightfully hate us otherwise
  375. # [09:06] <annevk> it was already known he worked on other formats
  376. # [09:06] <annevk> but he's not with the IE guys
  377. # [09:07] <foolip> phew, there is still hope :)
  378. # [09:07] <annevk> Kris from Microsoft to Hixie
  379. # [09:07] <annevk> "Nice to see you participate and listen to feedback on the html5 spec."
  380. # [09:07] <foolip> annevk, link?
  381. # [09:07] <Hixie> o_O
  382. # [09:08] <annevk> I guess maybe he said that because it was on public-html-testsuite and he meant participating there
  383. # [09:08] <annevk> otherwise it would be really weird
  384. # [09:08] <annevk> foolip, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2011Mar/0001.html
  385. # [09:09] <othermaciej_> yes, I think there was an implied "on the testing list" there
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  387. # [09:10] * Hixie has been on the testing list since probably before kris
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  392. # [09:16] <annevk> fwiw, I replied to Shelley: http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-same-origin#comment-42803
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  397. # [09:32] <hsivonen> Interop doesn't look too good here: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/about-blank-load-location.html
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  399. # [09:34] <karlcow> hsivonen: what is supposed to do? I open it in firefox, safari and opera and have the same blank square
  400. # [09:37] <hsivonen> karlcow: it uses console.log
  401. # [09:37] <hsivonen> karlcow: logs once in Firefox
  402. # [09:37] <hsivonen> karlcow: twice in Opera and Chrome
  403. # [09:38] <karlcow> ah ok thanks.
  404. # [09:38] <hsivonen> logs once in IE9 but it a crazier than expected way
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  407. # [09:40] <hsivonen> I wonder if the test in buggy and fails in an unexpected way in IE9
  408. # [09:40] <hsivonen> the IE9 result makes no sense otherwise
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  410. # [09:42] <annevk> look at that
  411. # [09:42] <annevk> above zero in Sweden!
  412. # [09:43] <annevk> only at night it is painfully cold
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  416. # [09:45] <karlcow> annevk: I have been now in Oslo for 10 days, and it is somehow tropical compared to Montreal. :D
  417. # [09:46] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YKMMDXLVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
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  419. # [09:46] <annevk> right...
  420. # [09:46] <annevk> I still need to get there however
  421. # [09:46] <annevk> and vote
  422. # [09:46] <annevk> and pack
  423. # [09:46] <hsivonen> well, *this* is interesting. IE9 mode doesn't create a body for about:blank synchronously
  424. # [09:46] <annevk> and more
  425. # [09:47] <hsivonen> I wonder if that's Web compatible
  426. # [09:47] <hsivonen> now I need to test my hypotheses in multiple IE modes
  427. # [09:47] <hsivonen> grr
  428. # [09:47] <annevk> lol MikeSmith
  429. # [09:47] <zcorpan> it's only 14 modes to test, right? or how many are there again?
  430. # [09:47] <annevk> "great tea abuser" hahaha
  431. # [09:48] <annevk> green*
  432. # [09:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  433. # [09:48] <hsivonen> It's extremely hard for me to believe that IE9 standards mode could be Web-compatible here
  434. # [09:49] <Ms2ger> They don't need to
  435. # [09:49] <hsivonen> because Gecko, WebKit and Presto all go through the trouble of making document.body non-null for about:blank synchronously
  436. # [09:49] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: right. but it sucks when trying to figure out what I should make Gecko do
  437. # [09:50] <zcorpan> annevk: is there a bugzilla component for html5diff?
  438. # [09:50] <Ms2ger> I thought there was
  439. # [09:50] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
  440. # [09:50] <zcorpan> there is
  441. # [09:51] <zcorpan> 17 open bugs
  442. # [09:51] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  443. # [09:52] <hsivonen> hmm. If I use developer tools in IE9 to force Browser Mode to IE9 and Document Mode to Quirks, I still get null document.body after parsing iframe before the event loop has spun
  444. # [09:52] <annevk> zcorpan, I think those are from Marcos
  445. # [09:52] <hsivonen> now I'm really confused
  446. # [09:53] <annevk> zcorpan, he still needs to close them
  447. # [09:53] <hsivonen> what's the closest thing to console.log that I could use in IE6 without disrupting the event loop?
  448. # [09:53] <hsivonen> I don't trust alert()
  449. # [09:54] <hsivonen> maybe I need to write my own in-test-case logging facility
  450. # [09:54] <hsivonen> again
  451. # [09:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: I suspect you do
  452. # [09:55] <zcorpan> annevk: filtering out marcos leaves 4 open bugs
  453. # [09:55] <jgraham> annevk: It's about -4 here
  454. # [09:55] <hsivonen> about:blank is such a pain
  455. # [09:57] * zcorpan creates an email label to keep track of html5diff emails
  456. # [09:58] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
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  458. # [09:59] <hsivonen> about:blank in iframe is so sane in IE9 that I wish the Web would agree with us standardizing that behavior
  459. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> It's sane? Then probably not
  460. # [10:00] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I need to test this stuff in window.open, too, before I draw conclusions
  461. # [10:00] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  462. # [10:03] <foolip> "the Ian has also removed the relation"
  463. # [10:03] <foolip> sounds like Ian is either a machine or a derogatory term :)
  464. # [10:04] * Quits: tbassetto (~tbassetto@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: tbassetto)
  465. # [10:04] <jgraham> It sounds like he is some sort of Terminator
  466. # [10:04] <jgraham> hired to kill off family members
  467. # [10:05] <foolip> imagine the movie version of Ian editing the spec!
  468. # [10:08] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  469. # [10:08] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  470. # [10:09] <hsivonen> whoa! whoa! even IE6 is saner than the other browsers on this!!!
  471. # [10:09] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  472. # [10:09] <hsivonen> could it be that the quirkiness of about:blank is Gecko's fault instead?
  473. # [10:12] <zcorpan> John Gregg and @sideshowbarker delivers? sounds creepy
  474. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> I didn't deliver anything, I just throw it into the machine and turn some knobs
  475. # [10:14] <hsivonen> aaaargh! it seems that window.open is crazy in IE
  476. # [10:14] <hsivonen> and other browser generalized the craziness to iframed browsing contexts
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  479. # [10:17] <annevk> zcorpan, who said it isn't?
  480. # [10:17] * Joins: tbassetto (~tbassetto@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
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  482. # [10:18] <hsivonen> is there any way to set a "load" event handler in a window.open call so that the event handler gets set before window.open() returns?
  483. # [10:18] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93)
  484. # [10:19] <annevk> modify the about:blank page? :)
  485. # [10:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I don't have the source for IE
  486. # [10:21] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.203.13.46) (Quit: estes)
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  488. # [10:23] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  489. # [10:24] * karlcow will abuse himself with green tea
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  492. # [10:27] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you just need to kidnap some ie team employee's kids and require the source for ie in exchange
  493. # [10:29] <hsivonen> why doesn't Opera have a truthy addEventListener on the object returned by window.open?
  494. # [10:30] <karlcow> you gotta love tools :) wonderful. http://www.nzeldes.com/HOC/Posographe.htm
  495. # [10:30] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  496. # [10:31] <hsivonen> this is weird. top-level windows in Opera have addEventListener but windows returned by window.open don't
  497. # [10:31] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93)
  498. # [10:32] <zcorpan> weird indeed
  499. # [10:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: seems to be that we don't create a script environment for the opened window if it's blocked by the popup blocker
  500. # [10:36] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  501. # [10:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: addEventListener exists if you open() in response to a click
  502. # [10:37] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
  503. # [10:38] <zcorpan> we don't try very hard to hide side-effects of the popup blocker
  504. # [10:38] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  505. # [10:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if I disable the blocker, Opera is more similar to Gecko than to Chrome and IE9 but still different
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  508. # [10:40] <hsivonen> where when I say "Gecko", I meant Gecko configured to target window.open to tabs
  509. # [10:40] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  510. # [10:40] <hsivonen> which is different from opening real windows!
  511. # [10:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: if you like testing, opera has a pref for opening windows instead of tabs
  512. # [10:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yay, more configurations
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  516. # [10:43] <hsivonen> the worst part of this is the Gecko-specific unit tests that depend on *exactly* what Gecko does now
  517. # [10:44] <hsivonen> and I don't mean unit tests designed to test this thing in particular
  518. # [10:44] <hsivonen> but random tests for other things
  519. # [10:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-96-9.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  520. # [10:45] <hsivonen> currently in Gecko, about:blank and document.open() on *.mail.live.com are special-cased to use the old parser
  521. # [10:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what's the problem with the new parser?
  522. # [10:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the problem with about:blank is that the new parser takes 2 task queue tasks to finish minimum and our test cases want about:blank processing to take one task queue task
  523. # [10:47] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i meant with mail.live.com
  524. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> Script processing? :)
  525. # [10:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I'll leave it to the Hotmail team to disclose the details if they want to
  526. # [10:48] <zcorpan> is it confidential?
  527. # [10:49] * Parts: Mallo_ (~neofish@APuteaux-154-1-39-139.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  528. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it not clear to me what the confidentiality expectation is, so I'm erring on the side of it being confidential
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  531. # [10:51] <zcorpan> ok
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  533. # [10:56] <jgraham> Sorry, what?
  534. # [10:56] <hsivonen> IE6 is so much more annoying than I remembered
  535. # [10:56] <jgraham> You swicth back to the old parser for one specific page?
  536. # [10:57] <jgraham> Jesus wept
  537. # [10:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, before this week it was only one: about:blank
  538. # [10:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: now it's also all document.open()ed pages on *.mail.live.com
  539. # [10:58] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  540. # [10:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: I assume since you can't talk about it that you also don't have a bug number?
  541. # [10:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: about:blank is only one specific page but it's the hardest one there is
  542. # [10:58] <Ms2ger> The bug is public
  543. # [10:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have several bug numbers
  544. # [10:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627729 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636692 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636690
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  546. # [10:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks
  547. # [11:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: It's UA-sniffed code on Hotmail. It's not served to Chrome. Probably not served to Opera, either.
  548. # [11:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: Hmm, OK
  549. # [11:02] * zcorpan has experienced repeated reloading in hotmail in opera at some point
  550. # [11:02] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk)
  551. # [11:02] * jgraham has tried to avoid experiencing hotmail
  552. # [11:03] <hsivonen> I'm in awe at people who've actually managed to develop JS programs for IE6
  553. # [11:04] <zcorpan> jgraham: i guess i should say that i've seen my wife experience repeated reloading in hotmail in opera at some point. she has now switched to gmail
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  556. # [11:10] <hsivonen> aargh. attachEvent wants the "on" bit in event names
  557. # [11:10] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Quit: thiessenp)
  558. # [11:10] <hsivonen> that explains a lot
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  561. # [11:13] <zcorpan> heh
  562. # [11:15] <hsivonen> awesome. IE9 has regressed the ability to listen for the load event of window.opened windows even the attachEvent way that worked in IE6
  563. # [11:16] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93)
  564. # [11:17] <hsivonen> hmm. Opera is weird
  565. # [11:17] <hsivonen> if I open about:blank using window.open, I get a load event
  566. # [11:17] <hsivonen> if I open something else (same-origin), I don't get a load event
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  575. # [11:35] <hsivonen> I guess I should also test if the initial about:blank shows up in the history API or something
  576. # [11:35] <hsivonen> sigh.
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  581. # [11:39] <_bga> Hixie are you here?
  582. # [11:42] <jgraham> _bga: He is probably asleep
  583. # [11:43] <_bga> ok
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  606. # [12:52] <hsivonen> is the non-joint history exposed to JS?
  607. # [12:54] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  608. # [12:55] <hsivonen> ah. "The actual entries are not accessible from script."
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  614. # [13:07] <annevk> "the Ian", lol where is that from?
  615. # [13:08] <annevk> I wish I had gotten some replies on the DOM Core stuff
  616. # [13:09] <annevk> I guess later today I can sort out what Björn pointed out
  617. # [13:10] <annevk> though I'm somewhat skeptical there is new information there
  618. # [13:10] <annevk> should probably also write a blog post on Web Notifications as some kind of introduction
  619. # [13:11] <annevk> lots of technical posts before my blog turns into a collection of travel stories
  620. # [13:15] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  621. # [13:15] <hsivonen> looks like about:blank is going to eat up my day :-(
  622. # [13:15] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.93)
  623. # [13:16] <annevk> your experience does show that the HTML parser really is intertwined with most everything
  624. # [13:16] <annevk> not sure that's a good thing
  625. # [13:16] <Ms2ger> I'm sure. No.
  626. # [13:17] <annevk> back later, going to get high (in the sky) bahaha bad joke
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  635. # [13:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: where can I find the Opera pref for targeting window.open to window instead of tab?
  636. # [13:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-36-122.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  637. # [13:44] <hsivonen> also, does Chrome have an option for doing the opposite?
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  639. # [13:47] <karlcow> hmm the dfn element doesn't really makes it easy to build glossary automagically. It needs a bit of markup-fu to make it more useful.
  640. # [13:47] <karlcow> s/makes/make/
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  682. # [15:51] <foolip> hsivonen, missing "to" in "WebKit used handle things"
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  685. # [16:03] * annevk can now place prank calls pretending to be gsnedders
  686. # [16:04] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i don't know what the opera:config pref is called, but it's in prefs, advanced, tabs, additional options
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  689. # [16:06] <hsivonen> foolip: fixed. thanks
  690. # [16:07] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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  694. # [16:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: "Sync plus incr other" is not defined
  695. # [16:20] <zcorpan> hsivonen: meant to be "Sync plus async other"?
  696. # [16:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes. fixed. thanks.
  697. # [16:31] <annevk> zcorpan, can I forward html5-diff comments to you now?
  698. # [16:31] <zcorpan> annevk: sure
  699. # [16:31] <annevk> playing with CVS with someone else also playing with it is pain :)
  700. # [16:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: about:blank is sad panda
  701. # [16:32] <zcorpan> annevk: we'll have to take turns :P
  702. # [16:33] * jgraham would point out the irony of a VCS not allowing multiple people to work simultaneously, but realises that the letters CVS make the point moot
  703. # [16:33] <zewt> cvs in 2011? my condolensces
  704. # [16:33] <annevk> I plan on just leaving it alone for some time now :)
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  706. # [16:33] <annevk> zewt, everything on dev.w3.org is in CVS
  707. # [16:33] <zcorpan> ok
  708. # [16:34] <annevk> I'm leaving in two weeks and we're not publishing so that seemed reasonable to me
  709. # [16:34] <annevk> especially since you're all set up now
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  711. # [16:34] <zewt> would getting version control updated to something not completely obsolete require three years of procedures and a unanimous vote
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  713. # [16:35] <annevk> new stuff is done here mostly: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/
  714. # [16:36] <jgraham> I think it took a little less than 3 years
  715. # [16:36] <jgraham> Basically staff got to decide so it happened fast
  716. # [16:39] <karlcow> zewt: nah. but there can be many dependencies on a system.
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  719. # [16:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I updated the result table to include Opera 11 targeting window.open to windows
  720. # [16:46] <hsivonen> nothing new there, fortunately
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  728. # [17:27] <Clotaire> Hello everybody
  729. # [17:28] <Clotaire> i am a french man and i am writting a tutorial on HTML5 and CSS3 on http://www.siteduzero.com
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  732. # [17:35] <jgraham> http://spacewar.oversigma.com/html5/
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  736. # [17:43] <zcorpan> hsivonen: but not same behavior as tab, which seems like a bug
  737. # [17:43] <zcorpan> oh wait
  738. # [17:43] <zcorpan> i read teh table wrong
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  742. # [17:50] <Clotaire> it is a official W3C developper here ?
  743. # [17:50] <Clotaire> i just want to ask some questions
  744. # [17:50] <wilhelm> Several, I presume.
  745. # [17:50] <Clotaire> like ?
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  748. # [17:51] <zcorpan> just ask your question
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  750. # [17:52] <jgraham> There isn't such a thing as an official W3C developer
  751. # [17:52] <jgraham> Although there are various kindds of staff
  752. # [17:52] <jgraham> and Mike Smith
  753. # [17:53] <Clotaire> i am talking about an "official developper", does mean a person who work directly in de structure as programmer
  754. # [17:53] <jgraham> Clotaire: Seriously, ask whatever question you have
  755. # [17:53] <jgraham> and people will either answer or try to point you to the right person
  756. # [17:55] <Clotaire> my preocupation is about the HTML5 geolocalisation API
  757. # [17:55] * Clotaire is now known as Wingate
  758. # [17:55] * Wingate is now known as Wingat
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  761. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> That's not an HTML5 API, do continue
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  764. # [18:03] <Rik`> Wingat: if you want to talk in French, maybe #openweb can help
  765. # [18:04] <Rik`> ##openweb actually
  766. # [18:05] <karlcow> strange question from Clotaire. What is an official W3C developer.
  767. # [18:05] <Wingat> tank you verry much
  768. # [18:05] <karlcow> he left
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  771. # [18:06] <Rik`> karlcow: Clotaire is now known as Wingate
  772. # [18:06] <karlcow> aaaah
  773. # [18:06] <Wingat> sorry if my questions are idiotic
  774. # [18:06] <jgraham> Rik`: Wingat, in fact
  775. # [18:06] <karlcow> no no not idiotic, just strange
  776. # [18:06] <Rik`> jgraham: I was about to past another one
  777. # [18:06] <Ms2ger> Both, in fact
  778. # [18:06] <Wingat> Wingate is my real nick
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  780. # [18:06] <Wingat> but it is register
  781. # [18:06] <karlcow> trying to understand what you mean by official w3c developer
  782. # [18:06] <Wingat> and i have forgotten how to sign in
  783. # [18:06] <zewt> mime type developer/w3c
  784. # [18:07] <Wingat> with a register nick
  785. # [18:07] <Rik`> zewt: I'm not sure I want to sniff a W3C developer…
  786. # [18:07] <karlcow> Wingat: en français, si tu es plus confortable, c'est possible aussi
  787. # [18:07] <zewt> D:
  788. # [18:08] <Wingat> Ah okey :)
  789. # [18:08] <Wingat> merci
  790. # [18:08] <Wingat> enfin un frère !
  791. # [18:08] <Wingat> alors comment on se connecte avec un nick enregistré ?
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  794. # [18:11] <karlcow> Wingat: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration
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  810. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Untitled sections aren't actually a "problem", right? I mean, titling them is ideal, but the mere fact that something is a <nav> is better than nothing.
  811. # [18:40] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-590c69b3.pool.mediaWays.net)
  812. # [18:41] <Workshiva> In fact, last I checked the spec encourages outline tools to provide sensible names for untitled non-generic sections
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  814. # [18:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No, that was the fundamental mistake in that article
  815. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> K. I'm chatting with the dude, and I was just making sure before I pressed the point.
  816. # [18:42] <Workshiva> "User agents should provide default headings for sections that do not have explicit section headings."
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  826. # [18:56] <zcorpan> http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey3/#html5
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  828. # [18:58] <jgraham> zcorpan: Aren't the results of a survey on that topic rather uninformative?
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  830. # [18:58] <zcorpan> maybe
  831. # [19:00] <jgraham> In general it seems like questions along the lines of "do you think that x is good" aren't good at determining if x is good. Moreso if it is "going to be good"
  832. # [19:01] <jgraham> I suppose it is useful to find our if you are doing well at PR though
  833. # [19:02] <zcorpan> seems more than half find longdesc useful
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  838. # [19:03] <Philip`> I suppose it shows that the "HTML5 is a step backwards for accessibility because it's removing accessibility-related markup" message is not that widespread amongst this group of people
  839. # [19:03] * TabAtkins needs to write up his proposal to add @src to canvas, so it can act as a drop-in <img> replacement with structured accessibility fallback.
  840. # [19:04] <jgraham> zcorpan: It shows that more than half of people said they found it useful when asked in a survey. That is quite different from them actually finding it useful
  841. # [19:04] <zcorpan> right
  842. # [19:04] <jgraham> Most of those people may never have come across a longdesc, for all we know
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  845. # [19:05] <jgraham> And the wording of the question would allow "how helpful is a method of providing a long description for complex images to you"
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  847. # [19:06] <jgraham> Since a problem that many people who use screenreaders have is that they can't see (or can't see well) it seems natural for them to answer that such a thing would be useful without having any clue about longdesc in particular
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  853. # [19:17] <zcorpan> maybe you would get slightly more accurate answers if the question was "How useful is longdesc to you" and one of the alternatives is "I don't know what longdesc is"
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  855. # [19:18] <zcorpan> and another "I know what longdesc is but have never encountered a page that uses it"
  856. # [19:19] <Philip`> What about people who have encountered it and used it but don't know it as the technical term "longdesc"?
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  858. # [19:19] <zcorpan> i guess the question could be asked in terms of how longdesc is exposed in the user's primary screen reader
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  861. # [19:21] <jgraham> The right way to do it would be to instrument some peoples screenreaders for objective questions
  862. # [19:21] <jgraham> and only ask about subjective things
  863. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> Instrumentation is always the answer.
  864. # [19:22] <jgraham> Even for apparently subjective things like "did you find that task easy" instrumentation can help you work out whether it was really easy or hard
  865. # [19:22] <jgraham> and normalise against different people
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  868. # [19:23] <jgraham> since you can measure how long things took, how many steps they went through, etc.
  869. # [19:23] <zewt> trying to derive useful information from that is something of a black art, though
  870. # [19:23] <zcorpan> speaking of easy and hard, MS Office 2010 has seriously regressed in ease of use
  871. # [19:23] <jgraham> zewt: Maybe
  872. # [19:24] <jgraham> But much less of a black art than reading tealeaves aka what people said in an interview
  873. # [19:25] <jgraham> (one presumes people like Freedom Scientific alrady have all this information but are not willing to share it)
  874. # [19:25] <jgraham> (or at least some of it)
  875. # [19:26] <jgraham> (one could presumably do the same thing with nvda in a more open way, but it would of course need funding and so on)
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  889. # [20:07] <Hixie> bga_: here now
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  892. # [20:09] <zcorpan> gotta love people who come here with a question but never ask it
  893. # [20:09] <bga_> sec :)
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  895. # [20:10] <bga_> serios question about webworkers
  896. # [20:10] * zcorpan was referring to Wingat
  897. # [20:13] <bga_> Hixie you know that each message passing cost is serialization + atomic queue + deserialization
  898. # [20:13] <Hixie> the workers spec lets you send structured data
  899. # [20:13] <bga_> but serialization/deserialization is very slow
  900. # [20:14] <Hixie> and browsers can implement it as copy-on-write
  901. # [20:14] <Hixie> so it doesn't have to be slow
  902. # [20:14] <bga_> hm
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  905. # [20:15] <Hixie> it actually doesn't even have to block, though the most optimal implementation performance-wise is a little subtle and requires careful thought to get right
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  908. # [20:17] <zcorpan> Hixie: seemingly the most optimal impl has not been implemented anywhere, it might be worthwhile to give a hint in the spec about the matter
  909. # [20:17] <Hixie> well the browsers still only do strings, right?
  910. # [20:17] <zcorpan> no
  911. # [20:18] <Hixie> oh, cool
  912. # [20:18] <Hixie> who does structured data?
  913. # [20:18] <zcorpan> opera and webkit at least
  914. # [20:18] <Hixie> shows what i know
  915. # [20:21] <bga_> if js will have weak references and abstract operation globalDelete(varName) => message passing will be better
  916. # [20:21] <zcorpan> firefox too
  917. # [20:21] <Philip`> SpiderMonkey implements the structured clone algorithm, though I don't know if/where it's used
  918. # [20:22] * Philip` only knows since he uses that for message passing between threads in his non-web-based application
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  920. # [20:23] <bga_> anyway erlang has classis actors model (WebWorkers - actors model too) and global atomic dictonary
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  922. # [20:24] <bga_> yeah we want to avoid extra crictical sections and rece contition but global dictonary is usefull
  923. # [20:24] <bga_> *race
  924. # [20:24] <zcorpan> firefox does strings for window.postMessage, webkit and opera does stuctured clone there too
  925. # [20:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: btw, has it been pondered about the security implications of sending Files in window.postMessage?
  926. # [20:26] <Hixie> yes
  927. # [20:26] <zcorpan> ok
  928. # [20:26] <Hixie> (as far as i can tell there are no implications since you could always just proxy all the calls back and forth anyway)
  929. # [20:27] <zewt> seems sensible that if a user grants a site access to a file, the site should be able to transfer that permission to other origins anyway
  930. # [20:28] <zcorpan> yeah that was my conclusion as well, although i haven't thought about it a great deal yet. (we haven't implemented cloning of Files yet)
  931. # [20:29] <zewt> i was wondering at one point about the fact that it seems like IDB is allowed to store File references, when permission to access a file shouldn't actually persist
  932. # [20:29] <zewt> (don't recall what the answer to that was off-hand)
  933. # [20:30] <Hixie> storage lets you store files
  934. # [20:30] <bga_> heh copy-on-write means incoming object is recursive Proxy :(
  935. # [20:30] <bga_> slow access
  936. # [20:30] <zewt> but File is normally a reference to a file, not the actual file contents, right?
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  938. # [20:31] <zcorpan> does anyone support structured clone for the history api's data argument?
  939. # [20:31] <zcorpan> zewt: yes
  940. # [20:31] <zcorpan> zewt: you can read the contents with FileReader
  941. # [20:31] <zewt> yeah, I know how it works with eg. file inputs
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  943. # [20:32] <zewt> where the File object essentially acts as your token giving you permission to access the file it references
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  945. # [20:33] <zewt> the curious part is if you're allowed to store a File in IDB, then it's allowing you to persist that token long-term ... which is useful, but seems at odds with the security model
  946. # [20:33] <bga_> fast passing and slow access vs. slow passing and fast access
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  950. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Okay, now my tests work very nicely in all browsers: http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-range/test/Range-deleteContents.html
  951. # [20:36] <Hixie> AryehGregor: any idea what webmartians is referring to when he says you insulted him?
  952. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I didn't see that yet.
  953. # [20:36] <Hixie> it doesn't seem like you did
  954. # [20:36] <Hixie> so i am confused
  955. # [20:36] <zewt> bga: can also selectively COW, eg. make copies of smaller objects but COW for big arrays, ImageData, etc
  956. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> I'm also confused.
  957. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Which guy was he again?
  958. # [20:36] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: all pass in opera, yay
  959. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Huh?
  960. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Maybe that was directed at me?
  961. # [20:37] <zcorpan> uh
  962. # [20:37] <zcorpan> yeah
  963. # [20:37] <zcorpan> sorry
  964. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Also, they run much faster now, since I run them in parallel.
  965. # [20:37] <zewt> heh, I had a response written in that "deprecate alert" thread with "webmartians", but discarded it after his last post; wrote him off as an idiot
  966. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: I love Ahem. Testing line-breaking with it is much better, as you don't have to rely on oddities of precise glyph sizes.
  967. # [20:37] <zewt> AryehGregor: i fixed that for you last night; did you get the link?
  968. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Oh, did he get annoyed when I said that we need actual use-cases and not just citations of Windows API features?
  969. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> zewt, yeah, I was just looking at that.
  970. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Your fix didn't seem to work for me as-is.
  971. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> I think because mine was still timing out in Chrome.
  972. # [20:38] <zewt> worked for me in all browsers, and doesn't need to create all of the tests at once
  973. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Anyway, partly I just copied your changes, even though they seemed insignificant compared to what I wound up with at the end of last night (I think we made similar changes in parallel).
  974. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> But whatever, it works now and it's fast.
  975. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Could you fix the Live DOM Viewer so that pressing Tab while in the markup pane generates a tab, rather than moving focus?
  976. # [20:39] <zewt> AryehGregor: FWIW, the response I had typed up and discarded re: timed-out alerts was essentially: saying there are no use cases is a very narrow view, and it's very easy to find use cases
  977. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Although there's a new WebKit failure I need to track down.
  978. # [20:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: isn't that a UA choice?
  979. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> zewt, do you have a name I should credit, or is "zewt" good?
  980. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Theoretically, but in reality tab always changes focus.
  981. # [20:39] <zewt> ... *but*, by the time you hit any of those use cases, you're doing things way too complex to use that old API and you should be using a real prompt library
  982. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> zewt, well, that may be, but they still have to be stated by someone.
  983. # [20:39] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Use spaces instead?
  984. # [20:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: copy and paste a tab from somewhere else :-)
  985. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Philip`: UNACCEPTABLE
  986. # [20:39] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i expect he's testing tabbing and whitespace
  987. # [20:40] <Hixie> line wrapping of tabs and white-space i should say
  988. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, on GNOME, Ctrl+Shift+u9 works.
  989. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> Actually, I just use tabs to indent code, and I have to train myself not to press tab when using LDV.
  990. # [20:40] * AryehGregor uses that all the time
  991. # [20:40] <Philip`> I thought it was just his usual tab-over-space perversion
  992. # [20:40] <Hixie> ah
  993. # [20:40] <Hixie> well
  994. # [20:40] <Hixie> consider this part of your course in not using tabs to indent code
  995. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You're wrong and I hate you.
  996. # [20:40] <zewt> AryehGregor: (glenn maynard)
  997. # [20:40] <Hixie> we shall cure you in due course!
  998. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> zewt, oh, that's you.
  999. # [20:40] <zewt> AryehGregor: it doesn't work for you in Chrome? which version--works for me in 9, anyway
  1000. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> zewt, your version did, but not when I copied the changes to my version.
  1001. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> My version loaded the iframes more slowly.
  1002. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> So it timed out.
  1003. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Worked when I upped the timeout.
  1004. # [20:41] <zewt> oh, your webserver is sending different cache headers, I think
  1005. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> But now that I do it in parallel, I don't need to up the timeout, yay.
  1006. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  1007. # [20:41] <zewt> the file is being cached off mine, but revalidated over and over on yours
  1008. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> I use lighttpd, and I can't change the cache headers except by editing the central config file and restarting the webserver, AFAICT.
  1009. # [20:41] <zewt> heh
  1010. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> (but on the other hand, I save a couple GB RAM compared to Apache+mod_php, so . . .)
  1011. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Oh, WebKit doesn't deleteContents() doctypes, it looks like.
  1012. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> So I did find a not-completely-trivial bug, yay.
  1013. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> (well, granted, it's pretty trivial)
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  1015. # [20:42] <zewt> a pretty-trivial-but-not-completely-so bug
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  1017. # [20:43] <ttepasse> Huh? rel=next and such are dropped?
  1018. # [20:43] <zewt> that's probably a bugzilla priority
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  1026. # [20:55] <zcorpan> ttepasse: next wasn't dropped
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  1029. # [20:56] <Hixie> the "Cryptographically strong random numbers" thread doesn't seem to have included any feedback on a spec i work on, so I am not going to be replying to it
  1030. # [20:56] <Hixie> please let me know if i missed anything there
  1031. # [20:56] <zcorpan> why is external in the rel list to begin with? it doesn't do anything anywhere
  1032. # [20:58] <zewt> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1145880 : |
  1033. # [20:59] <zewt> people sure find strange contortions to try to avoid harmless validator warnings
  1034. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Does Live DOM Viewer work in IE 9 yet, or does the XSS protection stuff still interfere?
  1035. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> zewt, wouldn't type="email" or type="url" work to solve the problem even better?
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  1037. # [21:05] <zewt> if it's as supported as the attribute he's using, probably
  1038. # [21:05] <zewt> (no idea whether it is)
  1039. # [21:05] <Hixie> zewt: commented
  1040. # [21:07] <zewt> AryehGregor: not so much the particular attribute that bugs me, but the fact that many people treat the end goal of using a validator as "quieting the warnings" instead of "fixing problems"
  1041. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> Live DOM Viewer works in IE9, yay.
  1042. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> zewt, that's why validator warnings need to be used with caution.
  1043. # [21:07] <zewt> like people triaging but trackers with the unspoken goal of "close as many tickets as possible" instead of "fix as many problems as possible"
  1044. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> I hate that, yeah.
  1045. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Oh, IE still won't load saved URLs in Live DOM Viewer.
  1046. # [21:08] <zcorpan> holy cow http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions has a lot of rels
  1047. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  1048. # [21:08] <zcorpan> i guess that's good; the wiki page is working as intended
  1049. # [21:08] * zcorpan didn't expect that
  1050. # [21:09] <zewt> didn't expect a wiki page to work? :P
  1051. # [21:09] <zcorpan> yeah
  1052. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> You should have more faith in wikis.
  1053. # [21:10] <zewt> would be more useful sorted by status/keyword instead of keyword, I think
  1054. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> (although I might be biased ;) )
  1055. # [21:10] <zewt> wait, can this thing sort?
  1056. # [21:10] <zewt> hey, it can
  1057. # [21:10] <zewt> (who knew)
  1058. # [21:11] <volkmar> vertical progress bars have been removed from the specs or i didn't found where it was mentioned?
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  1060. # [21:13] <zcorpan> http://mathiasbynens.be/notes/touch-icons - time to spec "apple-touch-icon"?
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  1064. # [21:15] <zewt> is there anything in it that's not heavily vendor-specific?
  1065. # [21:15] <bfrohs> Zewt, Android uses it too
  1066. # [21:16] <zewt> yeah but it's just mimicking it for compatibility (and I assume it doesn't do eg. the precompose effects)
  1067. # [21:17] <zcorpan> zewt: you must be new here
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  1071. # [21:18] <zewt> well there's a useful comment if ever there was one, heh
  1072. # [21:18] <Hixie> zcorpan: i was thinking about the rel registry thing when taking out all the rel values recently
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  1074. # [21:19] <Hixie> zcorpan: i think maybe the way to go is to have the wiki page be a place to avoid clashes, but then for the "approval" process to be integrating the rel values into the spec
  1075. # [21:19] <zewt> i suppose <link rel=icon> having an equivalent to precomposed could be useful
  1076. # [21:19] <Hixie> zcorpan: since we have a living spec model now, that's actually viable
  1077. # [21:20] <zewt> but less so, since with iOS you know in advance what the composed effects are, to know if you need to disable them--in the general case you don't
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  1089. # [21:33] <zcorpan> Hixie: i guess that makes sense
  1090. # [21:35] <Hixie> i doubt the w3c would ever go for that though, and it'd be silly to have two mechanisms
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  1104. # [21:59] <syskk> I want to know if the navigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(callback) callback was triggered because the user clicked on "Share position" in the browser or if it was automatically triggered because the user previously shared it and checked Always share with this website
  1105. # [22:00] <syskk> is that possible? or any workaround?
  1106. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> Why do you need that information?
  1107. # [22:00] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  1108. # [22:00] <syskk> TabAtkins: I want to automatically redirect the user when he clicks share position but I don't want the redirection to happen if it's triggered automatically
  1109. # [22:01] * Joins: nessy1 (~Adium@110.20.99.77)
  1110. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> I still don't understand. What is the redirection supposed to accomplish? Why do you want different behavior, if in both cases you're getting the geo info?
  1111. # [22:01] * Quits: zdobersek1 (~zan@cpe-46-164-25-154.dynamic.amis.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1112. # [22:02] <syskk> I have a welcome page where the user can either chose to enter a zip code or give geolocation through browser. Once I get that info, the user is redirected to another page but if he comes back to the change location page he will be auto redirected if he previously checked Always share location and won't be able to enter his zip code for example
  1113. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Sounds like your "welcome" and "change location" pages have different functionality. Perhaps they should actually be different pages?
  1114. # [22:04] <zewt> remember that browsers don't have to ask at all; they might be configured to always allow it
  1115. # [22:04] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@49.177.108.148) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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  1118. # [22:04] <syskk> right, change location could never automatically redirect
  1119. # [22:05] <syskk> still it would be nice if the callback was triggered by the browser or by a user action
  1120. # [22:06] <TabAtkins> Is there a way to detect if you're currently sharing your location? It does seem like a useful scenario.
  1121. # [22:06] <syskk> maybe itd be possible to do using the timestamp
  1122. # [22:07] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  1123. # [22:07] <zewt> I havn't used the geoloc API; I'd expect it'd be useful to be able to passively query it, eg. ask for the location if permission is available, without prompting the user if it's not, eg. for secondary, background features where you don't necessarily want to actively nag the user about them
  1124. # [22:07] <syskk> well, he knows it when he clicks share position
  1125. # [22:07] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@li159-104.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1126. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> syskk: I meant you, the page author. Looks like there's not.
  1127. # [22:08] <syskk> zewt has a point too
  1128. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> So yeah, sounds like useful functionality.
  1129. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Both for your and zewt's scenarios.
  1130. # [22:08] <syskk> TabAtkins: I misread you. thought you said "doesn't seem"
  1131. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Send the suggestion to public-geolocation@w3.org
  1132. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Or I could, if you'd prefer.
  1133. # [22:09] <zewt> most asking-of-permission in current APIs are largely based on "ask the first time the user uses a site feature", but that doesn't always obviously apply for "passive" features...
  1134. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Is there some convenient way for an iframe to pass some info up to its parent, other than by modifying its own DOM?
  1135. # [22:10] <zewt> web messaging?
  1136. # [22:11] * Quits: nessy1 (~Adium@110.20.99.77) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1137. # [22:11] <zewt> (havn't used it so I don't know how implemented it is)
  1138. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> This is for my deleteContents() tests, I want to report back what the Range is selecting after the deletion.
  1139. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> I could just encode the information in the DOM somehow, but that's . . . kind of icky.
  1140. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> I'd prefer that it be a separate test, anyway.
  1141. # [22:11] <zewt> http://dev.w3.org/html5/postmsg/#web-messaging
  1142. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> I'd prefer not to rely on a new feature like that unless it's simple and everyone's implemented it interoperably and so on. Otherwise it might cause extra failures or something tiresome like that.
  1143. # [22:12] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  1144. # [22:12] <syskk> I think one way around would be to check the position's timestamp
  1145. # [22:13] <zewt> don't know if there's anything else--I think that's exactly what that API is meant to solve (not just for iframes, of course)
  1146. # [22:13] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It's same origin
  1147. # [22:13] <syskk> if timestamp < now, position was shared in a previous request
  1148. # [22:13] <jgraham> So you can just make a function call
  1149. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Like how?
  1150. # [22:13] <jgraham> well top is the top-level iframe
  1151. # [22:13] <jgraham> so top.foo()
  1152. # [22:13] <jgraham> but don't use top
  1153. # [22:14] <jgraham> Because your whole test might be run in an iframe
  1154. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Should I be running this code in the iframe or the main page?
  1155. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> And what should I use if not top?
  1156. # [22:14] <jgraham> I think opener?
  1157. # [22:14] <jgraham> but that might just be window.open created windows
  1158. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I just realized that I can't really compare node equality across iframes anyway.
  1159. # [22:14] <arnehass> AryehGregor: I believe you can use parent.functionName() in the iframe to call on a functionName situated in the parent page
  1160. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> I guess I'll just have to do the DOM modification thing, although it's a bit weird.
  1161. # [22:15] <arnehass> haven't played to much with it thought, since I don't really like iframes...
  1162. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> syskk: I'll send a request to the public-geolocation list, as there's no way to reliably know the information you need. There are scenarios that can trigger both false positive and false negatives.
  1163. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> syskk: What your email? I'll cc you.
  1164. # [22:16] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Oh yes, parent it is
  1165. # [22:16] <jgraham> Why do you want to compare node equality?
  1166. # [22:16] <jgraham> What do you even mean equality?
  1167. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> jgraham, deleteContents() should change the range's start and end positions to a particular place.
  1168. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> I need to verify those are the same for the expected and actual.
  1169. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Which means the start/end nodes must be in the same place in their respective DOMs.
  1170. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I can make it separate tests if I can run a function from the iframe in the parent.
  1171. # [22:18] * Quits: msucan (~robod@92.84.204.232) (Quit: .)
  1172. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Can I do something like iframe.contentWindow.someFunction()?
  1173. # [22:18] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yes
  1174. # [22:18] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: jeremyselier)
  1175. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Okay, good.
  1176. # [22:18] <jgraham> same origin all these things are unrestricted
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  1179. # [22:19] <syskk> TabAtkins: thanks! olalonde@gmail.com
  1180. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> Hmm. I just realized that I'm not actually testing anything in the cases where the range isn't in the actual document. Oops.
  1181. # [22:19] * AryehGregor needs to fix that
  1182. # [22:20] <zewt> the danger of writing tests that aren't regression tests: they're hard to test. heh
  1183. # [22:22] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@216.239.45.19)
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  1185. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> See, I knew my tests weren't good enough.
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  1189. # [22:26] <zewt> need to write meta-tests to test the tests
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  1193. # [22:28] * Xano_ is now known as Xano
  1194. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> jgraham, iframe.contentWindow doesn't seem to have the methods I put on it in the iframe.
  1195. # [22:29] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  1196. # [22:30] * AryehGregor Googles it
  1197. # [22:30] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  1198. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, maybe that's just a WebKit bug.
  1199. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Boo.
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  1206. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> syskk: You still here? I've read the Geolocation spec more carefully, and found that your case is already addressed.
  1207. # [22:42] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
  1208. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> syskk: getCurrentPosition takes three args - a success callback (for when the user grants their location), an error callback (for when they don't), and an options object.
  1209. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> syskk: In the options, you can define a timeout. If you set the timeout to 0, the function will return a cached Position if possible (if they'd previously granted permission, and the last Position isn't too old); otherwise, it just immediately fires the error callback without prompting the user.
  1210. # [22:44] <syskk> TabAtkins: doesn't really help. the success callback is called regardless if the user chose to always share position
  1211. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Nope, it isn't. Check step 3 of the algorithm at http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#api_description
  1212. # [22:45] <syskk> ok I will
  1213. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> "If the value of the timeout variable is 0, invoke the errorCallback (if present)..."
  1214. # [22:45] <Moo-_-_> hmm
  1215. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> In order to properly grab the cached Position when it exists, you also have to set a maximumAge on the options object with an appropriately high value.
  1216. # [22:46] <zewt> hmm, but if there's no cached position (eg. GPS isn't started up), you can't distinguish it "don't already have permission" (don't know if that matters for his case)
  1217. # [22:46] <Moo-_-_> may I propose new <notsafeinworktag> for HTML?
  1218. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yeah, that's the one caveat - it doesn't address the case where the user has granted you permission previously (or instructed the browser to auto-grant permission to everyone), but you haven't yet extracted a position, or it's just *really* old.
  1219. # [22:48] <syskk> TabAtkins: that's what I thought earlier. I can check the timestamp of the cache object and compare with the current time. I think this could solve the problem
  1220. # [22:49] <zewt> (without squinting too hard at what you're suggesting, it's making brittle-hack alarm bells go off)
  1221. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> zewt: It sounds like it was an *intended* hack, though.
  1222. # [22:49] <zewt> TabAtkins: syskk's hack, not yours
  1223. # [22:50] <jamesr_> can i suggest a <badidea> tag in HTML for new tag proposals?
  1224. # [22:50] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  1225. # [22:50] <zewt> zero-timeouts for "nonblocking retrieve from cache but don't wait" is ordinary enough
  1226. # [22:50] <zewt> jamesr: we already have a syntax for that, <!-- you write them like this -->
  1227. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> syskk: You don't need to check the timestamp at all. If the success callback fires, you *know* you got a cached position, not a live one. If the error callback fires, you get a Position with its 'code' attribute set to TIMEOUT.
  1228. # [22:52] <zewt> AryehGregor: i'm fiddling around with your iframe stuff (since I havn't needed to mess with iframes very much), and I feel like I'm doing something dumb, because it seems like the <script>s aren't being executed at all
  1229. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Geolocation.getCurrentPosition(function(){ /* Permission was already granted. */}, function(){ /* It wasn't granted. /*}, {maximumAge:9999999999999, timeout:0});
  1230. # [22:52] <zewt> alert(), console.log, even straight-up syntax errors show nothing (in Chrome and FF4)
  1231. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> zewt, that sounds unlikely.
  1232. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> alert() and console.log might be suppressed, maybe?
  1233. # [22:52] <zewt> hit some cache glitches but dealt with those
  1234. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> From iframes, that is.
  1235. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Maybe it also doesn't log errors from iframes?
  1236. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> I dunno.
  1237. # [22:53] <zewt> alert maybe, console.log seems unlikely
  1238. # [22:53] <zewt> and syntax errors more unlikely
  1239. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Try having your script put some visible content in the iframe.
  1240. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> See if that works.
  1241. # [22:53] <zewt> i know I hit some caching glitches, but I hacked around those to make sure it was reloading
  1242. # [22:53] <syskk> TabAtkins: clicking the "Share location" in FF/chrome does trigger the success callback so no way to know. I'll do some test and see if I can get something out of the error callback like you suggest
  1243. # [22:53] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  1244. # [22:54] <zewt> gah
  1245. # [22:54] <zewt> it's interpreting the files at text instead of html. that would do it, heh
  1246. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> syskk: Sounds like a bug, then.
  1247. # [22:54] * zewt fixes MIME type
  1248. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I noticed that on your site.
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  1251. # [22:56] <jgraham> alert and console should work from iframes
  1252. # [22:57] <zewt> yeah, it just wasn't loading the file as HTML at all
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  1254. # [22:58] <zewt> AryehGregor: instead of running the scripts in the iframes, might be simpler to move those entire scripts to the main script and pass them a window object to work on
  1255. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> Hmm, maybe.
  1256. # [23:00] <zewt> wonder if you can you create an iframe with no data, to just get a new empty window/document without needing a dummy external resource
  1257. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> syskk: I'm still sending an email to the list, just modifying it based on the new understanding.
  1258. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> <iframe src="data:text/html,<!doctype html>"></iframe>
  1259. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> (Need the doctype to forced the page into standards mode.)
  1260. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Alternately, <iframe srcdoc=""></iframe>
  1261. # [23:01] <zewt> then you get rid of the entire caching issue as a bonus
  1262. # [23:02] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-174-63-81-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1263. # [23:02] <syskk> TabAtkins: yep. thanks
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  1265. # [23:05] <jgraham> <iframe src="about:blank"> might work
  1266. # [23:05] <jgraham> But abut:blank is a bit special
  1267. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> That'll give you a yucky quirks-mode page.
  1268. # [23:05] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  1269. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Also: it's crazy.
  1270. # [23:06] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-590c69b3.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
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  1273. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> syskk: Sent, and cc'd you.
  1274. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> And now, I'm off for the day to go man the booth at GDC.
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  1279. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> Yay, my tests found another spec bug.
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  1289. # Session Close: Thu Mar 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)