/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 05 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.115)
  4. # [00:03] <annevk> heycam, what I want is an object with an unknown set of keys that I can query in any order without side effects of which the values can be basically anything; i.e. numbers, objects, strings, etc.
  5. # [00:04] <heycam> annevk, ok
  6. # [00:04] <heycam> annevk, please mention that in the bug :)
  7. # [00:05] <annevk> yeah, tomorrow I will try to write it down
  8. # [00:05] <zewt> with deterministic side-effects, rather than with no side-effects
  9. # [00:05] <annevk> and make sure I add the Indexed DB people
  10. # [00:05] <heycam> zewt, yeah if the object has getters on it...
  11. # [00:05] <zewt> eg. evaluate getters into static properties
  12. # [00:06] <annevk> http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2011/03/04/doj
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  15. # [00:06] <zewt> heh
  16. # [00:08] <zewt> <mpeg-la> we can't possibly tell you which of our patents you're infringing. we have way too many and they're all hundreds of pages each, you can't expect us to know them all!
  17. # [00:10] <Hixie> annevk: make sure to mention that we need to define what happens with custom getters on these things
  18. # [00:10] <annevk> yeah, that's the side effect thingie above
  19. # [00:11] <annevk> guess I'll just end up enumerating the various cases it needs to address and the constraints and let heycam solve it :)
  20. # [00:12] <Hixie> k
  21. # [00:13] <annevk> heycam, btw, http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
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  23. # [00:13] <heycam> annevk, ah thanks
  24. # [00:13] <heycam> annevk, so that parses/serialises as either HTML/XML depending on the document mode
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  26. # [00:13] <annevk> yeah
  27. # [00:14] <annevk> not in DOM Core to prevent lots of dependencies
  28. # [00:14] <heycam> I wonder if it would be useful to be able to get a definite parsing mode regardless of the document mode
  29. # [00:14] <annevk> DOMParser does that
  30. # [00:14] <heycam> annevk, ok. (though less convenient.)
  31. # [00:14] <annevk> except not yet it seems
  32. # [00:16] <heycam> annevk, when are you away?
  33. # [00:17] <annevk> anyway, bedtime
  34. # [00:17] <annevk> 10 days from now
  35. # [00:17] <heycam> k
  36. # [00:17] <heycam> nn
  37. # [00:17] <annevk> nn
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  64. # [01:18] <ap> Hixie: is splitting text nodes during parsing something the HTML spec would be concerned about? WebKit stopped doing that while implementing HTML5, but looks like it was quite bad for performance
  65. # [01:18] <ap> so we may have to reintroduce that
  66. # [01:20] <Hixie> why is it bad for perf?
  67. # [01:21] <othermaciej> extra allocation and copying, I would presume
  68. # [01:21] <othermaciej> though I'm not sure what benchmark ap is looking at that convinces him it's an issue
  69. # [01:21] <Hixie> why would one long string need more allocation and copying than more shorter strings?
  70. # [01:22] <ap> Hixie: search and replace algorithms that create new nodes hit this (think about an algorithm that finds all e-mails with a regexp, and replaces them with <a> links)
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  72. # [01:23] <ap> Hixie: it's not about WebKit own performance, but about performance of scripts and other clients
  73. # [01:24] <Hixie> i don't understand why the number of DOM nodes needs to have any correlation to the number of allocations in the background, nor why editing fewer larger strings needs to be slower than more editing smaller strings.
  74. # [01:24] <ap> Hixie: yeah, I need to explain in more detail
  75. # [01:24] <Hixie> just implement the DOM string as an interface on top of a string system that uses whatever is optimal for the platform
  76. # [01:25] <Hixie> e.g. if someone tries to splice something into the middle of a string, you can just have the DOM node be stored as two strings and an edit point
  77. # [01:25] <Hixie> no need to move the original string at all
  78. # [01:25] <Hixie> etc
  79. # [01:26] <ap> Hixie: say, you're processing a string line aaa&lt;ian@hixie.ch>bbb, and need to replace it with aaa<a href="mailto:ian@hixie.ch">ian@hixie.ch</a>bbb
  80. # [01:27] <ap> Hixie: you have to split the text, and copy "bbb" into a new node
  81. # [01:27] <ap> Hixie: the larger nodes are, the more time it takes
  82. # [01:27] <Hixie> only if your implementation of text nodes is naive
  83. # [01:28] <Hixie> if you split the dom text nodes so that you have adjacent nodes in the dom, all you're going to do is break implementations that don't expect it
  84. # [01:28] <ap> Hixie: I can add to that that the strings are round tripped to a client via an API
  85. # [01:28] <Hixie> s/implementations/pages/
  86. # [01:29] <ap> Hixie: given that both Gecko and WebKit used to split, those pages were already broken
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  88. # [01:29] <Hixie> so e.g. if the dom nodes are [aaa&lt;ap@web] and [kit.org>bbb], pages will likely miss it entirely
  89. # [01:29] <ap> Hixie: you are talking about a pretty serious amount of sophistication for a CharacterData implementation here
  90. # [01:30] <Hixie> sure
  91. # [01:30] <Hixie> i'd rather browsers be sophisticated that rely on web page authors to be sophisticated :-)
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  94. # [01:30] <Hixie> or as others would say, the "priority of constituencies" puts authors ahead of browsers
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  96. # [01:31] <ap> Hixie: my priority here is to prevent real applications from freezing due to this change
  97. # [01:32] <ap> Hixie: I'm only working on a fix, and wanted to touch bas first, but it's pretty unlikely that we'll keep apps freezing until the desired level of sophistication is reached
  98. # [01:33] <Hixie> thanks for the heads-up
  99. # [01:33] <othermaciej> ap: is there a web app that has an N^2 problem with growing text nodes?
  100. # [01:34] <othermaciej> giant run of plaintext I would guess?
  101. # [01:34] <ap> othermaciej: <rdar://problem/9013049>
  102. # [01:34] <ap> othermaciej: in that case, it's also about memory use
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  105. # [01:36] <othermaciej> ap: I shall comment internally, given the nature of that bug
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  132. # [02:39] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I started using <xmp> today in Lists. It makes my life easier.
  133. # [02:41] <aho> what's xmp? :l
  134. # [02:42] <TabAtkins_> Like <pre>, but you don't need to escape anything inside of it.
  135. # [02:42] <aho> :o
  136. # [02:42] <TabAtkins_> So <xmp>To bold something, type <b>.</xmp> actually says what you'd expect.
  137. # [02:43] <aho> can't find it in the html5 specs... or well... anywhere
  138. # [02:43] <TabAtkins_> It's in the "obsolete elements" section right now.
  139. # [02:43] <aho> only found some old blog post which says it's deprecated
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  141. # [02:44] <aho> hm
  142. # [02:44] <TabAtkins_> Webkit, at least, actually supports <xmp> properly. It's quite helpful when writing HTML examples
  143. # [02:44] <aho> on my blog i'm using some input filter to get this kind of effect
  144. # [02:45] <aho> i always thought that this was a tad strange
  145. # [02:45] <TabAtkins_> For yourself, or for comments?
  146. # [02:45] <aho> myself
  147. # [02:45] <TabAtkins_> (This does *not* protect you against code injection from comments.)
  148. # [02:45] <TabAtkins_> Ok, yeah.
  149. # [02:45] <TabAtkins_> I write my blog in markdown, so the code blocks in markdown automatically know to escape their contents when serializing to HTML.
  150. # [02:46] <aho> well, i kinda like it and i always wanted something like that for my other technical documentation
  151. # [02:46] <aho> right now i always search/replace < and >, but that's somewhat annoying
  152. # [02:46] <aho> needless to say that it also makes the markup kinda ugly
  153. # [02:46] <TabAtkins_> You don't need to replace >, but you *do* need to replace &.
  154. # [02:47] <TabAtkins_> (> is safe everywhere except in unquoted attribute values)
  155. # [02:47] <aho> i replace <, &, and > (for symmetry) :>
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  157. # [02:48] <aho> is xmp something from html 3.x?
  158. # [02:48] <aho> ah... 2.0 it seems
  159. # [02:49] <Philip`> I don't think there's any HTML spec in which it wasn't already deprecated
  160. # [02:49] <aho> also <plaintext> and <listing>... weird :)
  161. # [02:49] <oojacoboo> does anyone know if the pseudo class :focus will allow styling of other elements based on that event or if it's only binded to the styling of that particular element?
  162. # [02:50] <aho> there is still no way to specifiy the programming language of a <code> block, right?
  163. # [02:50] <TabAtkins_> oojacoboo: I don't understand what you mean.
  164. # [02:50] <TabAtkins_> aho: No way in HTML, yeah.
  165. # [02:51] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins_: this is my selector that doesn't work... form.schweet li.help-tip input:focus + a.tipper
  166. # [02:51] <TabAtkins_> (Various javascript syntax-highlighting scripts recommend ways to mark it up.)
  167. # [02:51] <oojacoboo> here is one that does... form.schweet li.help-tip:hover a.tipper
  168. # [02:52] <TabAtkins_> Okay. There's nothing wrong with the former. As long as the input is focused, and the rest of the structure is right, then it will work.
  169. # [02:52] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins_: it doesn't :/
  170. # [02:52] <TabAtkins_> oojacoboo: I'd have to see your code. There's nothing wrong with the selector, so you're doing something else wrong.
  171. # [02:52] <oojacoboo> it's the most awkward thing I've seen
  172. # [02:53] <oojacoboo> I wish I could get you the code, it's a massive application
  173. # [02:53] <aho> ye, most of them use classes for that, but that's not quite right... i mean... there is zero semantic weight behind it. some micro format bs would work, i guess. but i'd prefer some regular attribute for that. i mean, <code> *is* for source code in *some* language
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  175. # [02:53] <TabAtkins_> aho: Use data-src-lang or something.
  176. # [02:54] <aho> right now, i'd use data-lang, yes ;)
  177. # [02:55] <aho> Although there is no formal way to indicate the language of computer code being marked up, authors who wish to mark code elements with the language used, e.g. so that syntax highlighting scripts can use the right rules, may do so by adding a class prefixed with "language-" to the element.
  178. # [02:55] <aho> meep :>
  179. # [02:55] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins_: am I wrong in assuming that the cursor doesn't have to be over the input for :focus to be triggered?
  180. # [02:55] <oojacoboo> I thought the cursor sitting in an input kept the :focus event triggered
  181. # [02:55] <TabAtkins_> oojacoboo: Focus, for an input, is when the caret is in the input.
  182. # [02:56] <TabAtkins_> It has nothing to do with the mouse cursor.
  183. # [02:56] <oojacoboo> strange...
  184. # [02:56] <TabAtkins_> Why is it strange? That's what it means to "focus" an input.
  185. # [02:56] <aho> there can be only one element with focus... if an element got focus it will receive keyboard input
  186. # [02:56] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  187. # [02:57] <oojacoboo> the behavior I am seeing is very strange, that event handling is as expected
  188. # [02:57] <aho> typically <tab> can be used to focus the next element and <shift>+<tab> jumps backwards
  189. # [02:57] <oojacoboo> aho: right
  190. # [02:58] <aho> clicking on some element also gives it focus
  191. # [02:58] <oojacoboo> yea, I actually know how it works, just not experiencing it
  192. # [02:58] <TabAtkins_> oojacoboo: Can you get :focus to work on its own, like "input:focus { outline: thick solid red; }" ?
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  194. # [02:58] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins_: yes
  195. # [02:59] <oojacoboo> that much is handled correctly
  196. # [02:59] <oojacoboo> background-color, color, etc
  197. # [03:00] <TabAtkins_> oojacoboo: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/865
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  199. # [03:00] <aho> input:focus+label works in ff3.6... i just tried that
  200. # [03:01] <aho> (completely useless, but yes, that works) :>
  201. # [03:01] <oojacoboo> trying to see if something else is the culprit here
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  204. # [03:09] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins_: no clue, it seems to be working fine in the testcases where I try to replicate, clearly something else is going on... thanks for your help, if I find something I'll report back
  205. # [03:09] <TabAtkins_> No problem.
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  209. # [03:09] <TabAtkins_> Unrelated: A virus so big it gets viruses: http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/03/a-virus-so-large-it-gets-viruses.ars?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=rss
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  215. # [03:19] <aho> would be nice if there would be something like focus, which bubbles up like hover :>
  216. # [03:20] <aho> input:focus+label <- e.g. that kind of thing would be useful if i could write it the other way around
  217. # [03:20] <TabAtkins_> label:has-sibling(input:focus), someday...
  218. # [03:20] <aho> but with some focus bubbling thingy i could do that via the wrapper
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  220. # [03:21] <aho> .whatever:focus-bubble-voodoo>label :>
  221. # [03:23] <aho> putting the label after the text fields would work of course, but that makes positioning a nightmare
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  223. # [03:23] <aho> and of course you'd end up with pure nonsense if you look at it without css
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  226. # [03:28] <aho> input:focus^label (adjacent previous sibling, lol)
  227. # [03:28] <aho> well, would be nice to have
  228. # [03:28] <aho> it's also kinda funny how css ran out of special chars :>
  229. # [03:31] <oojacoboo> aho that'd be awesome
  230. # [03:32] <zewt> input☺focus
  231. # [03:32] <aho> input(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ 彡 ┻━┻focus
  232. # [03:32] <aho> rage table flip combinator
  233. # [03:33] <zewt> input工工工ｴｴｴｴｴｴｪｪｪｪｪｪ(ﾟДﾟ)ｪｪｪｪｪｪｴｴｴｴｴｴ工工工focus
  234. # [03:34] <aho> :)
  235. # [03:36] <aho> well, there aren't too many "regular special characters" left and even most of those which are currently used don't make any sense whatsoever
  236. # [03:37] <zewt> can use longer tokens where it's not ambiguous
  237. # [03:37] <aho> yea, :whatever(...) will always work, but that's kinda awful :>
  238. # [03:38] <aho> input:focus:previous-adjacent-sibling(label){... uh hum...}
  239. # [03:38] <zewt> a::b->c@@d
  240. # [03:39] <zewt> as long as it doesn't devolve into the gnu regex absurdities like [:digit:] or whatever, heh
  241. # [03:39] <aho> [href$=".pdf"]
  242. # [03:39] <aho> :>
  243. # [03:41] <aho> but to be honest, i only use a very small subset of css selectors/combinators for the things i currently build (with some architecture n stuff)
  244. # [03:45] <oojacoboo> aho: honestly, you rarely need the special ones
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  246. # [03:45] <oojacoboo> I've built a very advanced application that uses a lot of css, and very rarely need special selectors
  247. # [03:47] <aho> i do virtually everything with the child combinator
  248. # [03:47] <oojacoboo> what do you mean?
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  250. # [03:47] <aho> the descendant one is only used for recursion :>
  251. # [03:47] <oojacoboo> .this < .that
  252. # [03:47] <aho> >
  253. # [03:47] <oojacoboo> gotcha
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  255. # [03:48] <aho> everything is a sub tree which can be plugged in any leaf of any other sub tree
  256. # [03:48] <aho> works great so far
  257. # [03:49] <oojacoboo> you can't always go up the DOM though
  258. # [03:49] <oojacoboo> esp when you need pseudo classes
  259. # [03:50] <aho> you cant go up or backwards with css
  260. # [03:50] <aho> only down and forwards
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  262. # [03:50] <oojacoboo> yea, but what I mean is, you can't always target a parent
  263. # [03:50] <oojacoboo> or use that parent rather, in the selection
  264. # [03:50] <aho> (well, strictly speaking it's the other way around since selectors are evaluated from right to left) :>
  265. # [03:50] <aho> of course i can
  266. # [03:51] <oojacoboo> how can I do this then...
  267. # [03:51] <aho> the markup is created that way from the very beginning
  268. # [03:51] <aho> first structure, then markup/css
  269. # [03:51] <oojacoboo> li:focus a.tipper {} where I have... <li><input /><a></a></li>
  270. # [03:51] <aho> and not arbitrary markup which i then try to beat into submission via css :>
  271. # [03:52] <oojacoboo> aho: of course, that's why I am saying I almost never have an issue
  272. # [03:52] <oojacoboo> so long as you have control over the DOM, you are almost always ok
  273. # [03:53] <oojacoboo> in that example I want to do something like... li(li a) < input:focus {}
  274. # [03:54] <oojacoboo> obv that doesnt' make sense, but pass the event on the input to style down from the <li>
  275. # [03:54] <aho> li isn't focusable by default
  276. # [03:55] <aho> <li tabindex="0" ...> makes it focusable
  277. # [03:55] <aho> but that's all kinds of ugly :>
  278. # [03:55] <oojacoboo> really??
  279. # [03:56] <oojacoboo> is that legit
  280. # [03:56] <zewt> iirc not consistently supported
  281. # [03:57] <aho> well, focus doesnt bubble up anyways
  282. # [03:57] <oojacoboo> right
  283. # [03:57] <aho> so, if some input inside that li got focus... then this one got the focus any nothing else gets it :>
  284. # [03:57] <aho> *and
  285. # [03:58] <aho> that's why i said it would be nice to have something like focus which bubbles up like hover :>
  286. # [03:58] <oojacoboo> mmm yea, just saying it'd be nice to be able to have it bubble or, or hack that somehow
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  288. # [03:58] <oojacoboo> li < input:focus {}
  289. # [03:59] <oojacoboo> you'd get something sorta like that, but how could you apply that to children of the li
  290. # [03:59] <zewt> people have complained about focus events not bubbling since forever, heh
  291. # [04:00] <oojacoboo> obv not enough people ;)
  292. # [04:02] <zewt> oh it's mouseover/mouseout bubbling that i'm thinking of
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  364. # [09:22] <annevk> http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/MicrosoftsAntiIe6Rhetoric
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  370. # [09:33] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  375. # [09:59] <annevk> I pulled bug before the comment: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  376. # [09:59] <annevk> Renamed "R" to "SVN" and "B" to "Bug"
  377. # [09:59] <annevk> better?
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  383. # [12:09] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  384. # [12:09] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  405. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: FYI: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638842
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  430. # [15:09] <foolip_> gsnedders, you there?
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  434. # [15:26] <gsnedders> foolip_: Vaguely.
  435. # [15:26] <foolip_> gsnedders, I was going to ask how the spec section ids are generated, but then I found secid.py
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  440. # [15:42] <foolip_> gsnedders, although, now it looks like secid.py isn't actually used in anolis2, did I find the wrong code?
  441. # [15:43] <foolip_> maybe the code is just invoked in some more roundabout way than actually importing secid and calling secid.Process...
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  451. # [15:59] <kukman> There is some bug in Selections in Opera
  452. # [15:59] <kukman> http://jsfiddle.net/pEqeu/2/
  453. # [15:59] <kukman> and, if you click mouse anywhere else, space between numbers will be still selected
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  496. # [18:31] <annevk> Could also name the SVN column HTML
  497. # [18:31] <annevk> currently at HTML5944
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  556. # [22:45] <Yuhong> Making HTML XML-valid then omit the xmlns because of a hate for namespaces? Huh?
  557. # [22:45] <Yuhong> http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
  558. # [22:46] <zewt> generally i tend not to take anyone seriously who uses the world "fail" in all caps
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  563. # [22:58] <aho> personally, i kinda like STOP EVERYTHING error handling :>
  564. # [22:59] <aho> i mean... gee... we are able to produce all kinds of well-formed formats. there is nothing magical about html which makes it impossible
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  566. # [23:00] <Dashiva> aho: Why do you hate your users?
  567. # [23:01] <aho> a broken image wont work
  568. # [23:01] <aho> a broken archive wont work
  569. # [23:01] <aho> a broken css file wont work
  570. # [23:01] <aho> a broken js file wont work
  571. # [23:01] <Dashiva> Sure they do
  572. # [23:02] <aho> about as well as broken xml, yes
  573. # [23:02] <Dashiva> You use broken css files and images every day
  574. # [23:03] <Dashiva> Same with JS files, for that matter
  575. # [23:03] <aho> we're talking about non recoverable errors
  576. # [23:03] <zewt> "not strictly correct" != "broken"; if it works it's, by definition, not broken. heh
  577. # [23:03] <aho> not things like ASI
  578. # [23:04] <aho> "the image ... contains errors and cannot be displayed" :>
  579. # [23:04] <Dashiva> zewt: Except that's how XML defines broken
  580. # [23:04] <aho> well, try writing some junk into the header of a jpg file
  581. # [23:04] <aho> see how that works
  582. # [23:04] <aho> :P
  583. # [23:05] <zewt> we're speaking english, not XML :P
  584. # [23:05] <zewt> aho: JPEGs aren't human-writable, so they can be a lot less forgiving
  585. # [23:06] <aho> how about obj (wavefront) then?
  586. # [23:06] <aho> technically it's human readable, too
  587. # [23:06] <zewt> don't know it
  588. # [23:06] <aho> it's a text based model format
  589. # [23:07] <aho> needless to say that things will go horribly wrong if you put some random junk data into one of those obj files :>
  590. # [23:07] <zewt> even readers for binary formats generally have to be forgiving of certain errors, when buggy software puts weird files in the wild; eg. reading AVIs is a serious pain
  591. # [23:08] <aho> well, that's what html5 is kinda doing... it tries to specify this error handling
  592. # [23:08] <aho> beforehand the result was just random
  593. # [23:08] <aho> that's not any good, really :)
  594. # [23:08] <aho> so yea, it should be either very strict and if it isn't the result should be predictable
  595. # [23:09] <aho> the latter is of course a lot more complicated
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  608. # Session Close: Sun Mar 06 00:00:00 2011

The end :)