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- # Session Start: Sun Mar 06 00:00:00 2011
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:41] <aho> there really should be a global vendor prefix registry which is maintained by browser vendors
- # [00:41] <aho> the current state is somewhat troublesome
- # [00:42] <paul_irish> how so
- # [00:42] <paul_irish> like when things go unprefixed.. and what existing prefixed props are supported by each?
- # [00:42] <aho> there are hundreds of prefixes and figuring out which one is still needed is pretty time consuming
- # [00:42] <aho> yes
- # [00:43] <paul_irish> hundreds of prefixes? i thought there were only 4 practical ones.. and then like ~14 that are in some spec somewhere.
- # [00:43] <aho> like -moz-opacity was required for firefox <0.9 and it's completely ignored since 3.5
- # [00:44] <Peter-> I got history info on http://peter.sh/experiments/vendor-prefixed-css-property-overview/ which I plan to do things with
- # [00:44] <paul_irish> mozilla and google are (and will be) documenting that on the MDC
- # [00:44] <Peter-> the primary problem is that gecko and webkit can be automated, whereas Opera and Microsoft cannot
- # [00:44] <Peter-> (I did e-mail them)
- # [00:45] <aho> http://code.google.com/p/cssmin/source/browse/tags/version-2.0/cssmin.php
- # [00:45] <aho> line 386 and up
- # [00:45] <gsnedders> Peter-: Automated in what way?
- # [00:46] <Peter-> Both Gecko as WebKit maintain a single file in which all properties are available
- # [00:46] <aho> where is that file?
- # [00:46] <aho> havent seen it on mdc
- # [00:46] <Peter-> I fetch them every three hours, parse the files into individual properties and update my db
- # [00:46] <Peter-> it also feeds the rss feed
- # [00:47] <Peter-> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/raw-file/tip/layout/style/nsCSSPropList.h
- # [00:47] <Peter-> http://trac.webkit.org/export/0/trunk/Source/WebCore/css/CSSPropertyNames.in
- # [00:47] <gsnedders> Right, so it's just a bi-product of them being open-source.
- # [00:47] <aho> ahm... ok... pulling it out of the source directly
- # [00:47] <aho> hoped there was some json file or even xml or whatever
- # [00:47] <Peter-> Opera doesn't maintain a single (or conveniently accessible) list. Microsoft has a few pages on MSDN which list all, but usually with a 3/4 month delay
- # [00:48] <Peter-> I do have a json
- # [00:48] <aho> linky? :)
- # [00:49] <Peter-> http://peter.sh/data/vendor-prefixed-css.php
- # [00:49] <paul_irish> hero!
- # [00:49] <aho> :D
- # [00:51] <Peter-> I have code (and data) for such lists on all properties (including non-prefixed ones) per browser version somewhere too, but I *really* need to finish that sometime soon
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- # [00:52] <aho> would be cool if that would end up in some official place (i.e. some place which can be actually found by anyone)
- # [00:52] <paul_irish> what were you searching for to attempt to find it?
- # [00:53] <paul_irish> 'List CSS Style Properties' ?
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- # [00:54] <gsnedders> Peter-: FWIW, publishing a complete list of properties supported for any Presto version should be trivial
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- # [00:56] <aho> paul_irish, me? i look most of them up on mdc and i crosschecked that IE stuff with msdn. that's about it.
- # [00:56] <paul_irish> k
- # [00:56] <aho> didn't know where else to look
- # [00:57] <aho> gsnedders, would be awesome :)
- # [00:57] <Peter-> gsnedders, I requested it late last year but never got a reply. The presto docs are complete, but the properties are listed all over the place
- # [00:57] <Peter-> that makes it hard to automate
- # [00:58] <gsnedders> Peter-: I can quite trivially send you a .txt file with one property per line
- # [00:58] <aho> soo... only microsoft is missing then eh? :)
- # [00:58] <Peter-> gsnedders, that'd be great
- # [00:58] <gsnedders> Peter-: Do you want multiple versions or just latest?
- # [00:59] <Peter-> gsnedders, just the latest will do. My e-mail address is peter@lvp-media.com
- # [00:59] <Peter-> gsnedders, thank you!
- # [01:01] <aho> Peter-, got some twitter account? (would like to be up to date on this heh) :>
- # [01:02] <Peter-> aho, I'm @beverloo. I don't really have an ETA, but it surely is high on my list :)
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- # [01:02] <aho> twitter stalkers++
- # [01:02] <smaug____> why does <progress> have .form?
- # [01:03] <aho> ah yea, twiter already told me several times to stalk you, too :)
- # [01:04] <Peter-> Cool :-). I'm off to bed for now, night
- # [01:04] <aho> nn
- # [01:05] <smaug____> ah, hmm, nm
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- # [01:06] <smaug____> er, no, I don't still get it
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- # [01:08] <gsnedders> Peter-: sent
- # [01:08] <aho> woo! :)
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- # [01:10] <aho> now, if everything goes right this stuff will go straight into preprocessors like sass/less/cssmin/whatever
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- # [01:11] <gsnedders> (for those curious, see www-arhcive)
- # [01:11] <gsnedders> *www-archive
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- # [01:12] <aho> for the lazy ones: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Mar/0007.html
- # [01:12] <aho> <:
- # [01:13] <aho> sorted by length... odd :)
- # [01:13] <aho> -xv-voice-pitch-range
- # [01:13] <aho> <- what's that?
- # [01:14] <zewt> tts?
- # [01:14] <aho> -o-, -wap-, and -xv- prefixes... hum :>
- # [01:16] <gsnedders> aho: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/xhtml-voice-in-style/
- # [01:16] <aho> -apple-dashboard-region
- # [01:16] <aho> <- and that one
- # [01:16] <aho> gsnedders, ah :)
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- # [01:19] <Philip`> (You can get that list of properties just by running "strings" on the opera binary and looking at the right section)
- # [01:20] <AryehGregor> I love doing that.
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- # [01:29] <aho> i wonder if it's possible to pull that out of document.documentElement.style somehow
- # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Just try assigning every possible string as a style property and see which ones work.
- # [01:29] <aho> but it seems like those properties are hidden by non-iter magic :l
- # [01:30] <aho> i.e. "in" works, but for-in doesnt
- # [01:31] <gsnedders> aho: That's just the [[Configurable]] property of the property in ES
- # [01:31] <gsnedders> Configurable? Enumerable.
- # [01:31] * gsnedders is blatantly too tired
- # [01:31] <aho> ye, but there is no way around that, is there?
- # [01:32] <aho> i mean... except for brute force
- # [01:32] <AryehGregor> The longest one is only 29 characters.
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- # [01:32] <aho> gonna try them all! :v
- # [01:32] <gsnedders> aho: No, there isn't.
- # [01:32] <AryehGregor> That's counting the hyphens, so I guess for our purposes it's really 25 characters.
- # [01:32] <aho> i wonder how long that would take with IE6-9's JS engines :>
- # [01:32] <AryehGregor> There are what, only 52 possible characters then?
- # [01:32] <AryehGregor> So it's only 52^25, which is, um . . .
- # [01:33] <aho> >>> print 52**25
- # [01:33] <aho> 7944811378381907919170379739856654861074432
- # [01:34] <AryehGregor> 7944811378381907919170379739856654861074432
- # [01:34] <aho> 7.9 paininthearseillions
- # [01:34] <gsnedders> aho: pff, you should be using some JS prompt ;P
- # [01:34] <AryehGregor> I did /exec -o calc 52^25
- # [01:34] <aho> had that one open .)
- # [01:34] <AryehGregor> But XChat complained that there was already a process running.
- # [01:35] <AryehGregor> So I had to do pstree, ps aux a couple of times, and some kills before XChat would let me run the command.
- # [01:35] <AryehGregor> So you beat me. :(
- # [01:35] <aho> > print(Math.pow(52,25));
- # [01:35] <aho> 7.944811378381908e+42
- # [01:35] <gsnedders> Though admittedly the exact behaviour of Math.pow is undefined
- # [01:35] <aho> meep :)
- # [01:36] <aho> well, i think this would take pretty long... :>
- # [01:38] <AryehGregor> I don't think you'd need more than about a trillion universe-lifetimes, if you had a decent supercomputer.
- # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Hardly worth talking about if you're used to thermodynamics.
- # [01:40] <aho> hm
- # [01:40] <aho> well, there are rules to this
- # [01:41] <aho> one could use some kind of dictionary
- # [01:41] <AryehGregor> One could also run strings on the binary.
- # [01:41] <aho> that's cheating :v
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- # [02:00] <AryehGregor> Does ISSUE-56 matter?
- # [02:00] <AryehGregor> (IRI normative references)
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- # [06:53] <Yuhong> FYI, <XMP> was deprecated when HTML was made based on SGML.
- # [06:54] <Yuhong> The problem is that they didn't like the SGML CDATA feature.
- # [06:58] <Yuhong> But the funny thing is that then they later added the <SCRIPT> and <STYLE> tags, which had to be CDATA. (STYLE is the older one, BTW)
- # [06:59] <Yuhong> Now that HTML is no longer based on SGML, I wonder whether it should be undeprecated.
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- # [09:23] <annevk> short night o_O
- # [09:23] <annevk> but home safe home
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- # [09:27] <foolip_> annevk, did you see the stuff in http://code.google.com/p/html5/issues/list ?
- # [09:28] <annevk> oh hey cool
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- # [09:37] <annevk> foolip_, so no, but I will patch
- # [09:38] <foolip_> ok
- # [09:38] <foolip_> I'm playing with my "log by section" thing, so I poked around a bit in your tool
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- # [09:39] <foolip_> it's been twice now that there have been changes in the video section that I didn't notice until much later and I consider to be regressions, so it'd be good to keep track of sections
- # [09:40] <annevk> hmm
- # [09:41] <annevk> I guess I should leave my server details with someone
- # [09:41] <annevk> In case it gets hacked again and for updating html5.org related services
- # [09:41] <foolip_> it got hacked?
- # [09:41] <annevk> I suspect that might be tricky from an internet cafe in Bolivia
- # [09:42] <foolip_> in any case you shouldn't work during vacation
- # [09:42] <annevk> there were a couple of suspicious files
- # [09:42] <annevk> so far I have not managed avoiding reading a bunch of stuff while on vacation
- # [09:42] <annevk> including mailing lists :/
- # [09:42] <annevk> maybe this time it will be better, since it is so long
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- # [09:44] <foolip_> well, if you trust me, I could take a hack at updating the icon and shorturl thing and get an account in the process
- # [09:45] <annevk> I do
- # [09:46] <annevk> the subversion stuff is somewhat disconnected from the actual code btw
- # [09:46] <annevk> the actual code lives somewhere on my server together with my own site and a dozen others
- # [09:46] <foolip_> is it in sync at least?
- # [09:47] <annevk> apart from the change I made the other day
- # [09:47] <foolip_> that it doesn't autoupdate doesn't surprise me, that'd be enterprisy
- # [09:47] <annevk> I can check that in and then give you the ssh password somehow
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- # [10:01] <foolip_> gotta have breakfast, brb
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- # [10:18] <annevk> Hixie, you online?
- # [10:19] <annevk> Hixie, can you add foolip to http://code.google.com/p/html5/ and maybe make someone co-owner or admin so we don't have to rely on just you?
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- # [10:56] <Peter-> gsnedders: got it, thanks!
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- # [11:07] <smaug____> annevk: do you happen to know why <progress> is a form-associated element?
- # [11:09] <annevk> I remember it being changed to that at some point on request
- # [11:09] * annevk looks in logs
- # [11:11] <annevk> hmm, at least over 1000 revisions ago
- # [11:12] <annevk> smaug____, it was for <label> I think: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=4530&to=4531
- # [11:13] <annevk> which has http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8554 associated with it
- # [11:13] * smaug____ looks
- # [11:14] <annevk> yay for web-apps-tracker
- # [11:14] <annevk> answering questions for at least a few years now
- # [11:15] <smaug____> why does having label require form association ?
- # [11:17] <smaug____> or what useful does having progress.form bring in?
- # [11:17] <annevk> the way <label> is defined it requires a form-associated element at the moment
- # [11:17] <annevk> I am not sure really, maybe we should change it somewhat
- # [11:18] <annevk> maybe it is for form.elements to make sense
- # [11:19] <smaug____> if progress was resetable, this all would make some more sense
- # [11:19] <annevk> can you have labeled progress bar outside a form?
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- # [11:19] <smaug____> why not?
- # [11:20] <annevk> just asking
- # [11:20] <smaug____> actually, should <progress> be even submittabled
- # [11:20] <annevk> don't think so
- # [11:20] <smaug____> submittable
- # [11:20] <annevk> can you file a bug?
- # [11:20] <smaug____> yeah
- # [11:21] <annevk> maybe hixie didn't consider making <label> work for non-form controls
- # [11:26] <smaug____> annevk: btw, progress isn't even "Listed element", so it doesn't show up in form.elements
- # [11:27] <annevk> oh ok
- # [11:27] <annevk> I remember not knowing why Hixie did it at the time but not caring enough to question it
- # [11:27] <annevk> hopefully I have not that too often, but I guess others pick it up in due course
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- # [11:28] <smaug____> I was reviewing volkmar's patch for this and wondered why there is the .form
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- # [12:13] <foolip_> annevk, so diffs are cached in the diffs/ folder to relieve the SVN server in web-apps-tracker ?
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- # [12:50] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Even if you use a fake URL, you're still giving away intimate knowledge of what the place is called :P
- # [12:58] <volkmar> smaug____: there is a .form for progress?
- # [12:59] <smaug____> volkmar: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#the-progress-element
- # [13:00] <smaug____> volkmar: and in your patch you do implement .form
- # [13:01] <volkmar> eh, meter has .form too...
- # [13:01] <smaug____> volkmar: the w3c bug is about meter too
- # [13:01] <volkmar> smaug____: i guess i should try to think a little bit more when i implement something
- # [13:01] <volkmar> smaug____: what's the # ?
- # [13:02] <smaug____> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#the-progress-element
- # [13:02] <volkmar> smaug____: NaN :)
- # [13:02] <smaug____> uups
- # [13:02] <smaug____> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12254
- # [13:03] <volkmar> thanks
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- # [14:12] <annevk> foolip, right
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- # [15:09] <foolip_> updated gecko, opera and ie icons on http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker, any objections?
- # [15:10] <annevk> wow much better
- # [15:11] <annevk> although not too great on the red I guess
- # [15:12] <annevk> volkmar, hope my reply helped
- # [15:13] <volkmar> annevk: yep
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- # [15:13] <foolip_> annevk, difficult to do much about that, the icons are the colors they are
- # [15:13] <foolip_> well, one could add shadows or something, but I'm not gonna
- # [15:14] <annevk> yeah, I was thinking maybe forcing a background color or something
- # [15:15] <annevk> adding a box-shadow to img is funny though :)
- # [15:15] <annevk> but not sure it looks better
- # [15:16] <foolip_> if something can be done with just CSS, that'd be nice
- # [15:16] <foolip_> the ie icon is especially ugly on red
- # [15:18] <foolip_> annevk, see http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhtml5.org%2Ftools%2Fweb-apps-tracker
- # [15:18] <foolip_> was it necessary to add value="" for some browser?
- # [15:18] <foolip_> just removing it still leaves an empty input box for me
- # [15:19] <foolip_> ah, I see it's because of the template
- # [15:19] <foolip_> maybe value="" should just be valid?
- # [15:20] <annevk> img { background:#fff; box-shadow:1px 1px 2px #fff } maybe?
- # [15:20] <annevk> value is not valid?
- # [15:21] <annevk> actually
- # [15:21] <annevk> img { background:#fff; padding:1px }
- # [15:21] <annevk> is pretty good
- # [15:21] <annevk> in Opera anyway
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- # [15:23] <foolip_> isn't a box going to be very boxy?
- # [15:23] <foolip_> if one makes it blurry enough maybe it will look good
- # [15:24] <foolip_> filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12256 for the value="" thing
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- # [15:26] <annevk> foolip_, it's boxy but decent looking :)
- # [15:26] <foolip_> annevk, are you editing it live now so I can see?
- # [15:26] <annevk> live in Opera :)
- # [15:26] <annevk> so no
- # [15:27] <annevk> I just did view source and save changes
- # [15:28] <foolip_> img { background:#fff; padding:1px } looks very white I'll say
- # [15:29] <foolip_> SVG filters would be better for this I think
- # [15:29] <foolip_> one wants a greyscale copy of the alpha channel and then to smear that a bit, maybe tainting it a bit white/yellow
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- # [15:31] <annevk> well yeah, you could apply rocket science
- # [15:31] <annevk> i was just going for visible
- # [15:31] <annevk> :)
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- # [15:33] <annevk> foolip_, where does it say valid="" is invalid?
- # [15:34] <foolip_> not sure if it does, just assuming validator.nu is correct
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- # [15:34] <annevk> i cannot find it
- # [15:35] <foolip_> can you find anything that says that the value should be a floating point number?
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- # [15:36] <annevk> ah good point, I guess I wasn't looking in the right section
- # [15:37] <annevk> "The value attribute, if specified, must have a value that is a valid floating point number."
- # [15:37] <annevk> not allowing the empty string there does indeed seem a bug
- # [15:39] <foolip_> annevk, should urlshortener.py be considered part of web-apps-tracker ?
- # [15:52] <annevk> I guess
- # [15:52] <annevk> structure is all kind of adhoc
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- # [20:43] <Hixie> foolip_: what's your e-mail address?
- # [20:43] <Hixie> annevk: made more of you admins
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- # [20:44] <foolip_> Hixie, for code.google.com purposes?
- # [20:44] <foolip_> if so, philip@foolip.org
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- # [20:45] <Hixie> yeah
- # [20:45] <Hixie> k, you're added
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- # [20:46] <Hixie> it auto-expanded you to a gmail address!
- # [20:46] <AryehGregor> What code is this?
- # [20:46] <Hixie> weird
- # [20:48] <foolip_> oh, I have added philip@foolip.org as an alternative to my google account
- # [20:48] <foolip_> too bad, I don't want anyone to ever use my gmail address :)
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- # [20:53] <foolip_> Hixie, looks like it worked, thanks!
- # [20:53] <foolip_> AryehGregor, just some changes to http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
- # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Ah.
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- # Session Close: Mon Mar 07 00:00:00 2011
The end :)