/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-09 / end

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  102. # [06:55] <jamesr> http://probablyinteractive.com/url-hunter
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  149. # [10:22] * jgraham is very confused about whether there is actually a concept of things being OK but not "authorised" and if so what the word "authorised" implies
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  152. # [10:28] <jgraham> Also, and unrelatedly, if objects-as-keyword arguments have to evaluate all the expected keys in a defined order first, can we end up with a problem if vendors add extensions? At the very least any extensions should be evaluated last
  153. # [10:36] <Ms2ger> Do we avoid that if we only allow data properties?
  154. # [10:37] <jgraham> The proposal to only allow data properties wasn't popular
  155. # [10:37] <jgraham> in particular with the TC39 people
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  157. # [10:38] <Ms2ger> Was with me
  158. # [10:39] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Well if you fancy arguing with Brendan and Allen, feel free
  159. # [10:41] * Ms2ger waits for a spec
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  164. # [10:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: what's the context of "authorized"?
  165. # [10:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: The "option 3" discussion
  166. # [11:00] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/mid/D9DDF34C-2949-4CB1-8E88-CD25444E1CDF@me.com infers a distinction between things that are OK and things that are authorized presumably based on http://www.w3.org/mid/085c01cbdd27$b7719b50$2654d1f0$@com
  167. # [11:01] <jgraham> But I found each additional explaination in that thread has only added to, not reduced, my confusion
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  182. # [11:54] <karlcow> I wonder if authorization relates to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization#Publishing
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  190. # [12:24] <hsivonen> karlcow: is that based on some kind of legal loophole around a work having to be fixed in a tangible medium to be under copyright?
  191. # [12:25] <karlcow> hsivonen: legal frameworks are difficult and change from countries to countries. So I have no ideas about that.
  192. # [12:25] <karlcow> I guess it is the same type of photos of a person when in the street.
  193. # [12:26] <karlcow> In USA no issue
  194. # [12:26] <karlcow> In Quebec, you do not have the right
  195. # [12:26] <karlcow> In France there is a right to images in some circumstances
  196. # [12:27] <karlcow> For text in France, there are two rights: Patrimonial (property) and Moral
  197. # [12:27] <karlcow> the moral right never ceases
  198. # [12:27] <hsivonen> I can imagine that lecture thing to be some kind of English thing that wouldn't fly in France
  199. # [12:27] <karlcow> and you can forbid someone to publish a text if you think it is misrepresenting the idea of the text or something like that. IANAL
  200. # [12:28] <karlcow> hsivonen: yes probably
  201. # [12:29] <karlcow> It's all silly, really. It is inherited from a time where it might have made sense. But now it seems more and more idiotic. :/
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  212. # [13:02] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges isn't search already a keyword on its own?
  213. # [13:03] <zcorpan> foolip: maybe we should also make things more forgiving e.g. make setting currentTime in HAVE_NOTHING just work by doing the seek when it's possible to seek
  214. # [13:04] <foolip> zcorpan, I agree, but that's kind of an orthogonal issue
  215. # [13:04] <zcorpan> yes
  216. # [13:04] <foolip> and there would be less reason to allow that if the spec wasn't racy
  217. # [13:04] <zcorpan> true
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  219. # [13:09] <annevk> yay ojan
  220. # [13:10] <annevk> also, not yay me
  221. # [13:10] <annevk> >1000
  222. # [13:10] <annevk> :/
  223. # [13:14] * zcorpan has 3333 unread mailing list emails
  224. # [13:15] * jgraham has one two threee more lots
  225. # [13:15] <zcorpan> biggest chunk is public-html-bugzilla almost exactly a third
  226. # [13:16] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  227. # [13:16] <annevk> well i'm not subscribed to that one and I don't have a QA day job :)
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  234. # [13:52] <annevk> copyright threads :/
  235. # [13:52] <annevk> if only rigo would listen to timbl
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  250. # [14:46] <matjas> any ideas on how to feature detect <details> support?
  251. # [14:46] <matjas> now that Chrome false positives on `'open' in document.createElement('details')`
  252. # [14:47] <Rik`> it's really annoying that Chrome is breaking so many feature detections
  253. # [14:48] <matjas> I was thinking of injecting a <details><summary>foo</summary>bar</details>, triggering onclick on the summary and see if the height changes
  254. # [14:48] * Joins: riven` (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  255. # [14:49] <hsivonen> looks like the Chrome team needs a serious policy-level solution to this problem
  256. # [14:49] <hsivonen> it's not even the first time
  257. # [14:49] <hsivonen> do they score higher on html5test.com because of this?
  258. # [14:49] <zewt> matijsb: last I played with it, synthetic click events didn't fire default behavior in FF (bug, IMO)
  259. # [14:50] <matijsb> matjas: ^ :)
  260. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> html5test checks 'open' in element
  261. # [14:50] <zewt> my policy is to nick complete at 3 characters and any ambiguities at that point are a bug in other people's nicks :P
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  264. # [14:51] <annevk> zewt, I don't think it's a bug
  265. # [14:52] <zewt> annevk: i remember ... some spec (dom events?) saying that most events shouldn't run defaults for synth events, but that click was an explicit exception
  266. # [14:52] <annevk> zewt, in fact, default behavior should only happen if the code path that dispatched the event also contains the default behavior
  267. # [14:52] * riven` is now known as riven
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  271. # [14:52] <annevk> if(target.dispatchEvent(ev) default()
  272. # [14:52] <annevk> zewt, that spec is silly
  273. # [14:52] <annevk> zewt, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12230
  274. # [14:53] <zewt> that doesn't make sense to me; the entire point of dispatching a click event would be to cause its click action to be run
  275. # [14:53] <zewt> you shouldn't have to examine the object you're fake-clicking and hardcode all of the possible default behaviors (which I've had to do, eg. manually copying window.location.href = a.href)
  276. # [14:56] <annevk> why else would dispatchEvent return a value?
  277. # [14:56] <zewt> so you can run your own default behavior after the browser runs its
  278. # [14:56] <annevk> hmm
  279. # [14:57] <zewt> i've always viewed browser default event behavior as being part of event dispatch ... that is, not logically equivalent to the browser using dispatchEvent() and checking the return
  280. # [14:57] <zewt> of course, it's moot and totally equivalent most of the time, when browsers refuse to run default behavior for nontrusted events
  281. # [14:58] <zewt> and since there are so few events where you can actually do that I'm not religiously attached to that view of events or anything
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  283. # [14:59] <zewt> i'm not sure what the trusted flag is for otherwise, though...
  284. # [14:59] <zewt> i've always viewed the trusted flag as letting the default browser event handler tell whether the event originally came from the browser and not a script
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  286. # [15:00] <zewt> if default behavior is logically outside of dispatch anyway, that doesn't matter
  287. # [15:01] <annevk> because of hixie I started viewing it the dispatchEvent() way
  288. # [15:01] <annevk> I don't really care what way is correct
  289. # [15:01] <annevk> but I'd appreciate consistency
  290. # [15:01] <annevk> so if synthetic click should work, synthetic submit should too
  291. # [15:02] <annevk> but making neither work is fine with me too
  292. # [15:03] <zewt> i don't think firing submit always submits--I have some code here that explicitly does dispatchEvent(e); if(!e.stopped) form.submit(); but I don't remember if that was needed on all browsers or what (oldish code)
  293. # [15:03] <zewt> or if the code's just wrong
  294. # [15:05] <annevk> e.stopped?
  295. # [15:05] <zewt> er that's a prototype thing (mirrors preventDefault)
  296. # [15:08] <zewt> on a quick test FF3.6 seems to submit on synth submit events, chrome 9 seems not to?
  297. # [15:08] <zewt> i sure love the web
  298. # [15:08] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  299. # [15:08] <annevk> the bug above has the cross-browser info
  300. # [15:11] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  301. # [15:13] <zewt> fwiw, the use case here is capturing things that need auth (clicks and form submits on registered-only features, etc), running a login handler in an overlay, then redispatching after login is completed
  302. # [15:14] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@corp.tor1.mozilla.com)
  303. # [15:15] <zewt> (but it handles IE, so it's not nearly that simple, heh)
  304. # [15:17] <annevk> you can also do that by <a>.click() and and <form>.submit()
  305. # [15:17] <zewt> no you can't--those don't dispatch events
  306. # [15:18] <annevk> you listen to the event, prevent it, do auth, then invoke those
  307. # [15:18] <zewt> that would skip event handlers
  308. # [15:19] <zewt> if you're capturing document.onclick, doing the login stuff, then you call target.click(), none of the event handlers below it would ever run
  309. # [15:20] <annevk> volkmar, hey, what was the in-range/out-of-range bug again?
  310. # [15:24] * jgraham is disappointed at WebKit for breaking <details>
  311. # [15:26] <zewt> annevk: if event defaults are outside of dispatch, what's the purpose of trusted?
  312. # [15:26] * Ms2ger is disappointed at WebKit in general
  313. # [15:27] <annevk> allows complex sites to see where the event came from
  314. # [15:27] <annevk> i.e. whether it was library or UA-generated
  315. # [15:27] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  316. # [15:27] <annevk> could be used e.g. to enable debugging code if you use synthetic events for automated testing
  317. # [15:29] <zewt> i'd just set a custom property to do that in my test code, don't need browser help for it
  318. # [15:30] <annevk> the browser does not need isTrusted exposed to do what it does now either
  319. # [15:31] <zewt> even less so if default behavior is thought of as outside dispatch
  320. # [15:32] <annevk> i don't think that was the reason why it was exposed
  321. # [15:32] <annevk> but i don't think it matters much
  322. # [15:32] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
  323. # [15:32] <annevk> if you have many libraries and lots of people working on the code it might be good to know where the event came from in certain situations
  324. # [15:35] <volkmar> annevk: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12151
  325. # [15:36] <annevk> ta
  326. # [15:36] * Joins: cgcardona (~cgcardona@c-24-5-146-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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  329. # [15:47] <AryehGregor> So, how fair is the IEBlog post just now on hardware acceleration?
  330. # [15:47] <AryehGregor> It looks like they're saying IE beats everyone fair and square, and I don't notice any obvious problems with their account.
  331. # [15:47] <AryehGregor> But I don't have a machine handy with IE9 and a decent graphics card to test on.
  332. # [15:49] <Rik`> AryehGregor: testing with only one demo, produced by themselves ?
  333. # [15:49] <AryehGregor> Rik`, but was the demo unfair?
  334. # [15:49] * Quits: sebasmagri (~sebasmagr@190.203.250.136) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  335. # [15:50] <annevk> seems a bit early to tell
  336. # [15:50] <annevk> but so far their track record has been that they publish about what works and keep everything else hidden
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  340. # [15:54] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It is impossible to tell without actually analysing it. e.g. they could be selecting particular operations they know they are fast at, or making the scores highly non-linear to accentuate small differences
  341. # [15:56] <AryehGregor> Or they could also have a better GPU acceleration implementation?
  342. # [15:56] <AryehGregor> Is there any evidence against that?
  343. # [15:56] <jgraham> I have no evidence either way
  344. # [15:57] <AryehGregor> Seems like it's important for other browser vendors to investigate.
  345. # [15:58] <jgraham> Sure. But that blog post doesn't strongly affect my opinion of whether their implementation is good
  346. # [15:58] <jgraham> because, without actually doing that investigation, there is very little information
  347. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> Wow, and I thought SSL warnings gave too little info: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles/00-00-00-47-13-metablogapi/6428.image_5F00_1DC874E0.png
  348. # [16:01] <AryehGregor> That's a whole new league of useless.
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  350. # [16:06] <zewt> annevk: brings to mind a use case for calling preventDefault before dispatchEvent
  351. # [16:06] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  352. # [16:06] <Ms2ger> Normal people don't read those dialogs, so it doesn't matter
  353. # [16:07] <zewt> there's no way of knowing whether a browser will run default behavior on a synth event (short of hardcoding the cases); the reliable thing to do is to always preventDefault before every synth event to guarantee it won't be
  354. # [16:08] <zewt> i sure wish FF would stop making me do a four-step song and dance every time I want to load an SSL page with a self-signed cert; I'll take a "yes/no" dialog over that any day, heh
  355. # [16:09] <AryehGregor> Yeah, the way browsers handle SSL errors is incredibly broken all down the line.
  356. # [16:10] <zewt> wish from the beginning there had been a separate protocol name, eg. "httpe", which was https with no certificates
  357. # [16:10] <zewt> then people who just want encryption would use it and the entire https certificate prompting thing would be much less of an issue
  358. # [16:11] <zewt> (in practice, I'm guessing something like SPDY will be the real-world fix)
  359. # [16:13] <AryehGregor> I'm hoping that STS will encourage browsers to treat security errors in non-STS contexts less severely.
  360. # [16:13] <zewt> havn't heard of that
  361. # [16:14] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@2620:0:1b00:1191:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e)
  362. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Strict_Transport_Security
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  364. # [16:17] <zewt> what's really needed is a mechanism to allow encryption with no cert without prompting at all--I doubt browsers will ever do that with https
  365. # [16:19] <zewt> if it's an excuse to get people to stop with the absurd "click here, now click here, now do the chicken dance and sing show tunes" game for self-signed sites, that'd be a step forward, though
  366. # [16:20] <jgraham> Maybe you should should rig up the Wii Fit to your browser so it could *actually* make you dance
  367. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> What they need to do is have a more nuanced approach, not the all-or-nothing way they do it now.
  368. # [16:21] <zewt> i'm not sure nuance works for security when it meets real-world users :)
  369. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> Anyway, the current way they do it is complete garbage, since it strongly assumes the site is malicious when everyone knows there's an approximately 100% chance that it's perfectly fine.
  370. # [16:22] <zewt> and the message it sets is essentially "unsigned encryption is less secure than plaintext", which is idiotic
  371. # [16:24] <jgraham> I think the theory is that unsigned encryption when you think you are securely connected is less good than a connection that is known to be untrusted
  372. # [16:24] <zewt> yeah, I understand the rationale for prompting with https
  373. # [16:25] <zewt> to prevent an MITM using an unsigned/self-signed cert
  374. # [16:25] <jgraham> Well given the rationale, I don't think it's idiotic
  375. # [16:25] <jgraham> Although it porbably makes inaccurate assumptions about user's mental models
  376. # [16:25] <jgraham> *probably
  377. # [16:25] <zewt> the rationale is fine; the way it solved it is broken, it's the end result that's idiotic
  378. # [16:26] <jgraham> If you think the rationale is fine, what is the better soluton? It seems to me that the rationale is likely flawed
  379. # [16:27] <zewt> there should have been a separate origin which was SSL without signing (and not displayed to the user as secure)
  380. # [16:27] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  381. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> "Is", not "would have been" ;)
  382. # [16:27] <jgraham> What was the backwards-compatible solution? :)
  383. # [16:27] <jgraham> s/was/is/
  384. # [16:28] <zewt> there's no backwards-compatible solution, which is why I said "should have been" rather than "should be" :)
  385. # [16:28] <jgraham> Then it seems silly to complain about it
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  387. # [16:29] <zewt> hardly; it needs to be fixed going forward--like I said, I suspect the real solution will happen if SPDY, or something out of it, gains traction
  388. # [16:29] <zewt> it's always SSL, so I think that's effectively what would happen
  389. # [16:29] <jgraham> A good solution might be just to not distinguish http and no-cert https in the UI
  390. # [16:30] <jgraham> and complain loudly only if a site goes from cert-?no cert
  391. # [16:30] <zewt> well, yeah, ideally the "http" user-visible protocol would have been able to seamlessly upgrade to an SSL connection, but I understand why that didn't happen
  392. # [16:31] <jgraham> There is no really good reason for the string "http" to appear in the UI
  393. # [16:31] <zewt> Ms2ger: (not sure what you meant, btw)
  394. # [16:32] <zewt> heh chrome's magic-http-hiding thing drives me nuts, since I'll try to copy a hostname out of the address bar and it'll tack "http://" on it
  395. # [16:32] <jgraham> zewt: See if O11's approach drives you less nuts
  396. # [16:33] <zewt> it's definitely less magic, which is good
  397. # [16:35] <zewt> also not a fan of how both browsers put the path in an unreadable low-contrast grey
  398. # [16:35] <zewt> the address bar is every browser's favorite playground for overly-clever gimmicks, heh
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  412. # [16:59] <Olemiss> Hey guys, I have a quick question... Is it ok to use the information on Whatwg on a Wiki?
  413. # [17:01] <Olemiss> For instance, if I wanted to create an article on Wikipedia about a feature of Html5, would I get in trouble if I copied some information from Whatwg?
  414. # [17:01] <Ms2ger> Not at all
  415. # [17:02] <Ms2ger> You can do whatever you like with it
  416. # [17:02] <Olemiss> Alright, great... is there anywhere on the whatwg site that says so?
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  418. # [17:03] <Olemiss> I just want my facts to be straight, and theres nothing better than the source.
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  420. # [17:05] <jgraham> Olemiss: The WHATWG wiki is MIT licensed. The spec is under a special license included in the file
  421. # [17:05] <jgraham> I don't know about anything else
  422. # [17:05] <Philip`> The wiki should say licensing details at the bottom of every page
  423. # [17:05] <Olemiss> Yeah, thats what I figured, ill look deeper
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  426. # [17:11] <hsivonen> hmm. what's the deal with Wikipedia not appearing to have guidelines about importing non-PD but Free content from elsewhere into Wikipedia?
  427. # [17:12] <hsivonen> I'd have expected Wikipedia to have guidelines about importing MIT/BSD content
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  432. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://www.mozillazine.org/articles/article177.html seems not to work
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  436. # [18:09] <twisted_> hmm weird, Safari just outperformed Chrome 10 with the http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Performance/MazeSolver/Default.html
  437. # [18:09] <twisted_> Chrome took 264seconds, Firefox 4 176s, Safari 216 seconds
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  439. # [18:10] <Peter-> The performance has been improved through a patch last week, it almost doubled
  440. # [18:10] <Peter-> (for WebKit that is)
  441. # [18:11] <annevk> zewt, if you always call preventDefault() you cannot use the mechanism yourself
  442. # [18:12] <annevk> zewt, however, recent DOM Core no longer resets the "canceled flag"; unless you invoke initEvent()
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  458. # [18:49] <zewt> annevk: it's unfortunate to not be able to tell whether an event will or did have default behavior executed...
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  460. # [18:50] <zewt> even if everyone consistently follows the "allow defaults for click" approach, it's still really fuzzy, eg. it probably still generally only works for button = 0 (can't synthetize a right click and open a context menu)
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  462. # [18:51] * smaug____ needs to find some time to review d&d. Looks like the latest changes haven't been reviewed.
  463. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> And DOM Core ;)
  464. # [18:52] <zewt> so yeah, it's an annoying limitation but I think I agree that treating default behavior as being run by the caller to dispatch and not as part of dispatch itself makes more sense
  465. # [18:53] <zewt> (or at least, is much less complex to get right)
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  470. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> http://rly.cc/Moi8M, in case anybody is interested in /.
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  485. # [19:37] <annevk> hmm, so maybe we should nuke CustomEvent?
  486. # [19:37] <annevk> it's not really widely implemented
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  488. # [19:38] <annevk> Erik has some cool ideas
  489. # [19:38] <zewt> how does it differ from just creating a basic Event?
  490. # [19:43] <zewt> i guess there's ... really no difference
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  591. # [23:09] <zewt> TabAtkins: well, almost off-list...
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  602. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Sigh. Yeah...
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  604. # [23:41] * Quits: homata_ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  612. # Session Close: Thu Mar 10 00:00:00 2011

The end :)