/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-11 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Mar 11 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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5. # [00:02] <dglazkov> TabAtkins <3
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9. # [00:10] <TabAtkins_> Does anyone else see my response on the <canvas src> thread which I just posted?
10. # [00:10] <TabAtkins_> The public-html list just autoresponded me in a way that suggests it forget I'm a member.
11. # [00:11] <heycam> TabAtkins_, yes: http://www.w3.org/mid/AANLkTi=8rxN8gVzYf4wU1OP6db82tjR+zjSMDpRNqt_=@mail.gmail.com
12. # [00:11] <TabAtkins_> heycam: Okay, cool. So I'll just ignore this as the listdaemon being crazy.
13. # [00:11] <heycam> but see you've CCed public-html-request too, maybe that was the cause of the mail back?
14. # [00:11] <TabAtkins_> Oh, wow, I did? Who put that in there? That doesn't even make sense.
15. # [00:12] <heycam> yeah I have no idea why that gets in peoples' CC lists sometimes
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19. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, are browsers planning to actually make them text nodes, though?
20. # [00:20] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Dunno
21. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> It would make more sense to treat them like entities, and merge them into adjacent text nodes when deserializing the XML. Not make them text nodes themselves.
22. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> What specification defines how to parse XML into a DOM? Does XML 1.0 itself somehow define that?
23. # [00:22] <heycam> agree
24. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> It doesn't mention "DOM" anywhere.
25. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
26. # [00:22] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p1182-ipbf4006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
27. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> I see, HTML seems to, at least for XHTML.
28. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> No, it sort of defers to other specs in a vague fashion.
29. # [00:23] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
30. # [00:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: XML Infoset
31. # [00:24] <gsnedders> And then somewhere maps the Infoset to the DOM
32. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Fun.
33. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Is anyone planning on actually speccing how to parse XML into a DOM without CDATASection, or is DOM Core just going to pretend they don't exist without defining what to do with them?
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35. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Because it makes more sense to reflect reality here if no one has specific plans to change, IMO.
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37. # [00:28] <Hixie> cying: there's no particular syntax for custom class names, it's just a microformat. Best bet is to go to the microformats community and put forward your use case and see what they suggest.
38. # [00:28] <Hixie> cying: ("it has to be really simple" being part of your use case)
39. # [00:28] <Hixie> cying: i don't see anything wrong with class="byline" being sufficient, though
40. # [00:29] <cying> Hixie: thanks... yeah, class="byline" is okay... but we want a bit more namespacing as to not conflict with most common classes
41. # [00:29] <cying> Hixie: i think that's the path we'll take
42. # [00:30] <Hixie> what's wrong with conflicting with class="byline"?
43. # [00:30] <Hixie> it's not like people will have used it for anything but a byline :-)
44. # [00:32] <dglazkov> Hixie: dhyatt (and I) want to change the spec: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56001#c9. Do I send mail to whatwg? File a bug? Wait for things to magically happen on its own?
45. # [00:32] <Hixie> please hold
46. # [00:32] <Hixie> looking...
47. # [00:33] <Hixie> if you want to change that you should mail the list explaining the reason for it to be changed
48. # [00:33] <dglazkov> k
49. # [00:33] <Hixie> (what's the reason?)
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51. # [00:33] <dglazkov> can't do it reasonably in WebKit and still allow user styling of controls
52. # [00:33] <Hixie> "it's hard" is a lame reason
53. # [00:33] <Hixie> authors are more important than implementors
54. # [00:34] <TabAtkins_> How about "It's impossible in pure CSS"?
55. # [00:34] <dglazkov> didn't say it's hard. can't do it != it's hard
56. # [00:34] <Hixie> of course you can do it :-)
57. # [00:34] <dglazkov> :)
58. # [00:34] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-fryvpkgyrqsihiwo) (Quit: Lost terminal)
59. # [00:34] <Hixie> just define a new appearance value that automatically senses the direction and renders it appropriately
60. # [00:34] * TabAtkins_ is now known as TabAtkins
61. # [00:34] <Hixie> what's the problem here
62. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> "Renders it appropriately" means that it's being done magically by the browser, and can't be done by the user.
63. # [00:35] <dglazkov> how does a user-styled control do it?
64. # [00:36] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: I think we downed Hixie
65. # [00:36] <dglazkov> :)
66. # [00:36] <Hixie> if the author wants to change the rendering, they use xbl, just like any other form control
67. # [00:37] <Hixie> the whole point of this control is that they get platform-native rendering and don't have to override anything
68. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> We don't do platform-native rendering. ^_^
69. # [00:37] <dglazkov> Hixie: that's not the way it works now. There's lots of uses in the wild where peeps put -webkit-appearance:none and style their controls already
70. # [00:38] <Hixie> css doesn't support styling <meter> manually anyway, whether it's vertical, horizontal, or both.
71. # [00:38] <Hixie> it's like <select>'s drop-down, there's no way to style it from css.
72. # [00:38] <dglazkov> Hixie: there is in WebKit
73. # [00:38] <Hixie> demo page?
74. # [00:39] * dglazkov builds a demo page
75. # [00:41] <dglazkov> http://jsfiddle.net/TmRPq/
76. # [00:42] <Hixie> oh i thought you meant for <select>
77. # [00:42] <dglazkov> Hixie: that would be great, actually, but no :)
78. # [00:43] <dglazkov> at this point, we have two choices: 1) not implement size-sensing in WebKit and 2) change the spec to allow explicit sizing
79. # [00:43] <Hixie> ok well for <meter> you've already solved the problem. Just change "::-webkit-meter-horizontal-bar" to "::-webkit-meter-bar", and dynamically determine the stacking direction.
80. # [00:43] <dglazkov> besides, auto sizing is not necessary what you need.
81. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> That doesn't let you, for example, use a gradient for the bar.
82. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> (Since you need to know the direction to construct the right gradient.)
83. # [00:44] <dglazkov> you might want a fat, short meter
84. # [00:44] <dglazkov> like the old-school radio lamp ones
85. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Huh. My editor is highlighting 'import' like it's a reserved word in PHP. The googles don't tell me anything about this, though. AryehGregor, you know anything?
86. # [00:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you know the direction, since you set the dimensions too
87. # [00:46] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: It isn't
88. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, pretty sure it's not.
89. # [00:46] <Hixie> dglazkov: show me one page anywhere that actually does that
90. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Okay, thanks. My syntax highlighter is just dumb.
91. # [00:46] <AryehGregor> http://php.net/manual/en/reserved.php
92. # [00:47] <Hixie> (if you really want to support a fat meter, just have three appearance values: -webkit-meter, -webkit-meter-horizontal, -webkit-meter-vertical)
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94. # [00:47] <dglazkov> Hixie: appearance is not going to cut it if I want to style it
95. # [00:49] <Hixie> you need 'appearance' and the pseudos, sure
96. # [00:49] <dglazkov> Hixie: here's a page: http://jsfiddle.net/TmRPq/2/
97. # [00:49] <dglazkov> Hixie: why go into all the trouble?
98. # [00:49] <Hixie> because most people won't want to style it and because a fat meter is dumb
99. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's the right thing to do
100. # [00:50] <dglazkov> Hixie: I think it's too early to tell if most people don't want to style it
101. # [00:50] <Hixie> no it's not
102. # [00:50] <Hixie> look at all other controls
103. # [00:50] <dglazkov> :)
104. # [00:50] <Hixie> most people don't style them
105. # [00:50] <Hixie> anyway i'm not saying don't support styling
106. # [00:50] <Hixie> i'm saying:
107. # [00:50] <Hixie> * support styling
108. # [00:50] <Hixie> * by default orient sanely
109. # [00:50] <Hixie> * allow override of orientation
110. # [00:51] <Hixie> this seems to support everything you've mentioned and everything i've mentioned
111. # [00:51] <dglazkov> how would I override orientation?
112. # [00:51] <Hixie> <Hixie> (if you really want to support a fat meter, just have three appearance values: -webkit-meter, -webkit-meter-horizontal, -webkit-meter-vertical)
113. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, all existing form controls are meant to allow the user to input things, not present information to the user.
114. # [00:51] <AryehGregor> I think that makes a difference to how likely people are to want to style them.
115. # [00:51] <dglazkov> can you help me with a bit of code?
116. # [00:52] <dglazkov> Hixie: I don't understand what you mean
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118. # [00:52] <dglazkov> if I want to style controls, I have to set apprearance: none
119. # [00:53] <dglazkov> especially if there platform-specific styling
120. # [00:53] <dglazkov> (and since we're arguing about styling controls, I think you'd be surprised how many sites actually _do_ style controls)
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122. # [00:54] <dglazkov> especially considering there are entire libraries dedicated to that
123. # [00:54] <Hixie> how do you control the direction today?
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125. # [00:56] <dglazkov> Hixie: it's done in a wrong way today for meter and progress. We use -webkit-appearance: slider-vertical for input[type=range]
126. # [00:56] <dglazkov> once you've made it vertical, you can't apply user styling to it
127. # [00:56] <dglazkov> it sucks
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129. # [00:56] <Hixie> ok so here's a proposal:
130. # [00:56] <Hixie> for the default rendering, have -webkit-appearance: meter / slider / progress;
131. # [00:57] <Hixie> once you set -webkit-appearance: none, get the direction from -webkit-direction: horizontal / vertical
132. # [00:57] <dglazkov> that's what I suggested in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56001#c1
133. # [00:58] <Hixie> then you have a bunch of pseudos for the various parts, like ::-webkit-meter-bar, ::-webkit-meter-high, ::-webkit-slider-thumb, whatever
134. # [00:58] <dglazkov> or nearly
135. # [00:58] <Hixie> so where's the problem
136. # [00:59] <dglazkov> Hyatt thinks box-sensing is a dumb idea :)
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138. # [00:59] <dglazkov> you should talk to him
139. # [00:59] <Hixie> hyatt is a big boy, he can argue his own thoughts if he wants the spec changed
140. # [00:59] <dglazkov> :)
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143. # [01:03] <dglazkov> Also: I think that adding this "magic" to controls is a bad idea for a whole different reason: it's not possible with just CSS.
144. # [01:03] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.0.48.8)
145. # [01:03] <dglazkov> dglazkov: and I intuitively hate "magic" in the platform
146. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Now you're talking to yourself?
147. # [01:03] <zewt> that's you, by the way
148. # [01:03] <dglazkov> :D
149. # [01:03] <dglazkov> sorry
150. # [01:04] <zewt> zewt: this guy's losing it
151. # [01:04] <dglazkov> I would rather see less magic in the platform, moving to a place where you could concievably "explain" all built-in HTML elements with CSS.
152. # [01:04] <AryehGregor> URLs starting with \\ in Windows are network shares or something, right?
153. # [01:05] * Quits: wolfman2000 (~wolfman20@152-20-177-60.rev.uncw.edu) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
154. # [01:05] <zewt> among other things
155. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> Is there some standard way to express those in URLs? Like replace the initial \\ with smb:// or something?
156. # [01:05] <AryehGregor> The URL is specifically: \\eshel.campus.ad.bgu.ac.il\BW-Students
157. # [01:07] * Joins: jochen___ (~jochen@nat/google/x-tpopzmhitlsjjvjc)
158. # [01:07] <zewt> file://///host/path in firefox (5)
159. # [01:07] <zewt> (had to squint to be sure I wasn't going crazy, heh)
160. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> Heh.
161. # [01:08] <Hixie> dglazkov: what i just described was just css. :-)
162. # [01:08] <zewt> at least, that's what it gives me if I load a file into FF from a UNC path
163. # [01:08] <Hixie> dglazkov: so clearly it can be described as css :-)
164. # [01:08] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:200:226:bbff:fe05:3fe1)
165. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> The 'appearance' property counts as 'magic'. ^_^
166. # [01:09] <Hixie> well HTML defines everything in terms of XBL
167. # [01:09] <Hixie> so you could just implement XBL instead :-)
168. # [01:09] <dglazkov> Hixie: oh right. I like the idea of -webkit-direction
169. # [01:10] <dglazkov> Hixie: but I think the authors would much rather do: meter { -webkit-direction: horizontal; }
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171. # [01:10] <Hixie> dglazkov: well then have the default -webkit-direction value be 'auto'
172. # [01:10] <dglazkov> Hixie: meter { width: 200px; height: 10px; }
173. # [01:11] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-169f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Quit: And Now for Something Completely Different.)
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175. # [01:12] <dglazkov> Hixie: in order for the box-sensing to work, they'd have to style _more_ than in explicit setting
176. # [01:13] <Hixie> how so?
177. # [01:13] <dglazkov> meter { direction: horizontal } -- done
178. # [01:13] <zewt> AryehGregor: not that it answers your question about standards (no idea), but Chrome and Opera use the much saner file://host/path (havn't tried IE9)
179. # [01:13] <Hixie> dglazkov: what is done?
180. # [01:13] <dglazkov> meter { width: somevalueIneedtoknow, height: someothervalue; }
181. # [01:13] <Hixie> dglazkov: what is the use case you're trying to solve here?
182. # [01:14] <dglazkov> Hixie: I am reasoning against auto-sensing the dimensions
183. # [01:14] <dglazkov> Hixie: dimensions are a poor way of doing this
184. # [01:14] <Hixie> what is "this"?
185. # [01:14] <dglazkov> determining the orientation of control
186. # [01:15] <dglazkov> you don't actually mean what you say. The author wants to say: "I want this to be horizonal"
187. # [01:15] <dglazkov> so they have to start measuring stuff
188. # [01:15] <dglazkov> instead, they just need to be able to say "horizonal"
189. # [01:15] <Hixie> dimensions are the best way of determining the default orientation of control, they are only going to want to have a vertical meter if they are sizing their meter to be vertical.
190. # [01:15] <dglazkov> as in <meter orientation="horizonal">
191. # [01:16] <dglazkov> you are saying that they are the best, but why?
192. # [01:16] * Quits: jochen___ (~jochen@nat/google/x-tpopzmhitlsjjvjc) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
193. # [01:16] <dglazkov> why is it easier than just explicitly stating the orientation?
194. # [01:16] <Hixie> authors are far more likely to be giving the dimensions of their control and be disappointed that the control is now in a stupid direction (e.g. taller than wide but still horizontal), than they are to care about the direction of the control but not its dimensions.
195. # [01:16] <dglazkov> that's just hearsay
196. # [01:16] <Hixie> not saying something is trivially easier than saying something.
197. # [01:17] <dglazkov> you are still saying something
198. # [01:17] <Hixie> my argument has as much validity as the one you are making :-)
199. # [01:17] <zewt> it seems like a sensible default, as long as it can be overridden
200. # [01:17] <dglazkov> no, it doesn't
201. # [01:17] <Hixie> you're saying the opposite of what i'm saying with as much evidence
202. # [01:17] <dglazkov> you are adding magic
203. # [01:17] <dglazkov> where I am not
204. # [01:17] <dglazkov> therefore my argument is better :)
205. # [01:17] <Hixie> you say magic, i say usability :-)
206. # [01:17] <Hixie> therefore my argument is better :-)
207. # [01:18] <dglazkov> ok, let's start from a few steps back
208. # [01:18] <Hixie> k
209. # [01:18] <dglazkov> when I want to specify orientation of a control, do I think a) dimensions or b) orientation?
210. # [01:18] <dglazkov> I would say orientation
211. # [01:19] <Hixie> sure
212. # [01:19] <Hixie> when I want to specify dimensions of a control, do I think a) dimensions or b) orientation?
213. # [01:19] <Hixie> I would say dimensions
214. # [01:19] <dglazkov> yup
215. # [01:19] <dglazkov> and you are conflating the two
216. # [01:20] <Hixie> i said the same as you did with one word switched!
217. # [01:20] <dglazkov> you proved my point!
218. # [01:20] <zewt> let's exclaim things!
219. # [01:20] <Hixie> dglazkov: i really don't know what your point is, so that's surprising to me :-)
220. # [01:20] <dglazkov> you are conflating setting dimensions with setting orientation.
221. # [01:20] <dglazkov> and what I am saying is that they should be two separate things
222. # [01:21] <Hixie> i'm saying that when authors change the dimensions, they will almost always what the orientation to switch to match.
223. # [01:21] <dglazkov> because when the author wants to set dimensions, he doesn't expect to set both dimension and orientation
224. # [01:21] <Hixie> EXACTLY
225. # [01:21] <Hixie> which is why when you set the dimensions, the orientation should automatically follow
226. # [01:22] <zewt> i think he meant: he doesn't expect both dimension and orientation to be set
227. # [01:22] <Hixie> then i completely disagree
228. # [01:22] <Hixie> when the author wants to set dimensions, he doesn't expect to have to set both dimension and orientation
229. # [01:22] <dglazkov> Hixie: there is nothing on the Web that behaves like that
230. # [01:22] <dglazkov> Hixie: when the author sets dimensions of a div, he doesn't expect the div to change orientation
231. # [01:23] <Hixie> everything on the web behaves like this. You put content in a table, it automatically sizes to fit it. You put a bunch of floats next to each other, they automatically wrap to avoid each other. Etc.
232. # [01:23] <dglazkov> wrap and fit are totally different from orientation
233. # [01:23] <dglazkov> nothing changes orientation
234. # [01:24] <Hixie> what would have needed to change orientation?
235. # [01:24] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
236. # [01:24] <zewt> either way you'd still be able to set the orientation explicitly, right? (eg. if you really do want a 10x100 progress bar that fills horizontally)
237. # [01:24] <dglazkov> when an author builds a page with a meter, he/she thinks of orientation, not dimensions
238. # [01:25] <dglazkov> dimensions come as a forcing function to change orientation
239. # [01:25] <zewt> (eg. the auto argument is only a default, not for not having an orientation style at all?)
240. # [01:25] <dglazkov> or at least it will be, according to the spec today
241. # [01:25] <Hixie> I disagree with "when an author builds a page with a meter, he/she thinks of orientation, not dimensions"
242. # [01:25] <dglazkov> in a normal flow document, dimensions aren't even necessary
243. # [01:25] <dglazkov> and you're making the author think of dimensions
244. # [01:26] <dglazkov> <p>This restaurant is awesome</p>
245. # [01:26] <dglazkov> <meter>
246. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Agreed that you'd often want to specify orientation without dimensions.
247. # [01:26] <Hixie> when an author builds a page with a meter, he/she thinks of dimensions, not orientation.
248. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> In many cases, the dimensions aren't going to be important.
249. # [01:26] <dglazkov> Hixie: not at all
250. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Unless you're building a carefully sized layout.
251. # [01:26] <dglazkov> AryehGregor: exactly.
252. # [01:26] <zewt> when I (an author :) build a page with a meter, I think of both, together
253. # [01:26] <AryehGregor> Generally you just stick stuff in and let it be whatever size it is.
254. # [01:26] <Hixie> can you show me some examples with vertical meters?
255. # [01:26] <zewt> (not with <meter> yet, but in the manual progress meters I've implemented)
256. # [01:26] <Hixie> some real pages?
257. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> I don't care much what size my inputs are, for instance.
258. # [01:27] <Hixie> all the pages i've seen have horizontal meters with specified sizes.
259. # [01:27] <Hixie> i can't think of a single page with a vertical meter.
260. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> They only have specified sizes because they kind of have to if you're hacking them up with <img>s. :)
261. # [01:27] <dglazkov> Hixie: I think you're trying to defer discussion by making me do some grungy work :) I know this tactic
262. # [01:27] <zewt> (not arguing either way--neither way of doing it seems particularly better or worse to me)
263. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> It's certainly true that vertical meters seem like they'd be less common.
264. # [01:27] <dglazkov> Hixie: can you show me one page that needs auto-sizing controls?
265. # [01:27] <AryehGregor> Horizontal meters seem like they're a much bigger use-case.
266. # [01:27] <Hixie> dglazkov: no, i'm trying to base our decisions on real world data
267. # [01:28] <Hixie> dglazkov: what do you mean by "auto-sizing controls"?
268. # [01:28] <dglazkov> Hixie: controls that change orientation based on their size
269. # [01:28] <zewt> here's one case where auto-orientation would be funky: a meter with a CSS animation to animate its width from 0 to full-size
270. # [01:29] <zewt> if it's automatically oriented, it'd briefly be vertical at the start of the animation
271. # [01:29] <dglazkov> Hixie: real-world data is hard to come by when meter is a brand new baby
272. # [01:30] <dglazkov> Hixie: but pretty much any statistical bar chart could be made with meters
273. # [01:30] <dglazkov> vertical ones
274. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> dglazkov, I assume he means pages that hack up their own meters.
275. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> Personally, I'm unconvinced that <meter> is worth implementing at all. But that's me.
276. # [01:32] <dglazkov> and assuming we have a statistical bar chart, I can see it being implemented as meter { float: left; orientation: vertical }
277. # [01:32] <dglazkov> no need to fiddle with dimensions
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279. # [01:33] <dglazkov> I guess what I am saying is: there is no proof that size-sensing is a useful feature. And you're making browser peeps run in circles because you think it's cool
280. # [01:33] <dglazkov> less complexity
281. # [01:34] <dglazkov> is better
282. # [01:35] <Hixie> dglazkov: ok, finally was able to find the right page in the Cocoa documentation. The NSSlider control automatically orients itself based on its size: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Reference/ApplicationKit/Classes/NSSlider_Class/Reference/Reference.html#//apple_ref/occ/cl/NSSlider (search for isVertical)
283. # [01:36] <Hixie> dglazkov: not really sure how one would find a page that "needs" this since by definition any page could work around the lack of this feature. The idea here is that the feature saves author time.
284. # [01:36] <dglazkov> Hixie: yup. And it's a great feature for fixed-positioned platforms. But for the web, I highly doubt it
285. # [01:36] <Hixie> dglazkov: why?
286. # [01:36] <Hixie> dglazkov: it's even MORE useful on the web
287. # [01:37] <dglazkov> Hixie: because dimensions play lesser role
288. # [01:37] <dglazkov> Hixie: as I demonstrated in my bar chart example, I don't even need to know dimensions
289. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> Web pages don't use fixed sizes much.
290. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> Stuff is fluid.
291. # [01:37] <gsnedders> Life is fluid.
292. # [01:37] <Hixie> i wish that were true
293. # [01:38] <Hixie> but everything has dimensions on the web
294. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Mostly not author-specified unless you force them to.
295. # [01:38] <dglazkov> Hixie: as you resize the page, your constraints can change. Do you expect meters to be changing orientation too?
296. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Authors like things that auto-size, like tables and floats.
297. # [01:38] <dglazkov> Hixie: that's just not true at all
298. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> They mostly only specify fixed sizes when their layout requires them to use absolute positioning due to CSS limitations, or things like that.
299. # [01:38] <dglazkov> Hixie: look at Wikipedia. What percentage of the layout is based on actual dimensions?
300. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> dglazkov, the sidebar is fixed-width.
301. # [01:38] <Hixie> dglazkov: if the meter gets so narrow that it's taller than wide, yes, it would be a usuability win if it became more readable by automatically switching direction.
302. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> So is the stuff at the top.
303. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> It's all absolute positioning.
304. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Infoboxes are fixed-width.
305. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Images are fixed-width.
306. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Lots of stuff is.
307. # [01:39] <Hixie> dglazkov: the meter on the wikipedia page (when they ask for money) is fixed-width (as a % of page width), iirc
308. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Yeah, percentages are useful for things like that.
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310. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> Not if it's inline with the page text. But lots of meters aren't.
311. # [01:40] <dglazkov> alright folks, this was lots of fun :)
312. # [01:40] <dglazkov> but I gotta go
313. # [01:40] <dglazkov> unfortunately
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315. # [01:40] <dglazkov> this discussion reminded me of the old days in college
316. # [01:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if it's inline with the page, you're not going to change its orientation either
317. # [01:41] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|away
318. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Meters like that are unlikely, yeah, unless you're constructing a bar graph or something.
319. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> But then it seems really unlikely you'd want any kind of default meter appearance.
320. # [01:41] <Hixie> making a bar graph with <meter>s is wacky
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322. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> But arguing from use-cases here is kind of weak because, as I said, the use-cases for a <meter> element are really very limited.
323. # [01:41] <Hixie> yeah the main use case for <meter> is "try to reduce the number of people who abuse <progress> for meters"
324. # [01:42] <Hixie> but the same discussion applies to <progress>
325. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Which also seems like it has very limited use-cases, as an element.
326. # [01:42] <Hixie> well it has one use case
327. # [01:42] <Hixie> showing a progress bar :-)
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329. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Yes, but how many sites will actually want to use a system default progress bar?
330. # [01:43] <Hixie> enough :-)
331. # [01:43] <zewt> depends on if UAs style it reasonably or hideously, heh
332. # [01:43] <Hixie> i've already written pages that use it myself, in fact
333. # [01:43] <Hixie> e.g. http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/all.html
334. # [01:44] <Hixie> in fact i may have used <progress> more than <aside>
335. # [01:44] <Hixie> :-)
336. # [01:45] <gsnedders> neither progress/meter can represent something which has a segment that is "done", and another segment that is "in progress" (as well as "not started"), right?
337. # [01:45] <Hixie> example?
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341. # [01:47] <gsnedders> Hixie: An automated testing system, and tests been run, being run, yet to run.
342. # [01:49] <Hixie> isn't that just many <progress>es?
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345. # [01:57] <gsnedders> Hixie: So what? One of tests run (out of total tests) and one of tests being run (out of total tests)?
346. # [01:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: i don't fully understand what you're describing, so i'm not sure.
347. # [01:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: if you have a bunch of tests and they can each have progress, then i'd guess each one would have a <progress>
348. # [01:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: if you have a bunch of tests and you want to indicate how many are "on", then a <meter> is appropriate
349. # [01:59] <Hixie> gsnedders: if you have a bunch of tests running and you want to indicate their aggregate progress, <progress> is appropriate
350. # [01:59] <Hixie> hth
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358. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> What. The. Hell. Can someone who knows PHP look at this and tell me why I'm clearly hallucinating, because there's no way this behavior could actually be happening? http://www.xanthir.com/test.php
359. # [02:27] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: $arr['4300'] != $arr[4300]
360. # [02:27] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Also, are you sure the value genuinely isn't NULL? What's error_reporting set at?
361. # [02:27] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Well, no, apparently they *are* the same. But *neither* will retrieve the element with the key '4300'.
362. # [02:28] <hober> TabAtkins: weird
363. # [02:29] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.39) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
364. # [02:29] <TabAtkins> The array is constructed by just reading in a big JSON blob, and the '4300' entry definitely exists here in the json.
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366. # [02:33] <TabAtkins> And now isset() is reporting that the index isn't set, despite it being right there in the array_keys() result.
367. # [02:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: isset returns false if the value is null
368. # [02:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: see array_key_exists
369. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> omg
370. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Yup, array_key_exists('4300',$arr) returns false, despite '4300' showing up right there in array_keys($arr).
371. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> W.T.F.
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374. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> And a foreach over the array shows the missing key.
375. # [02:40] <Hixie> is there anything in the platform that returns a Blob for some generated data yet?
376. # [02:40] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out what to call the method on StreamRecorder that returns (via callback) a Blob containing the recorded data
377. # [02:40] <Hixie> it used to be stop() but that doesn't make sense since it doesn't actually stop anything
378. # [02:40] <Hixie> getBlob(callback)?
379. # [02:41] <hober> getRecordedData(cb)
380. # [02:42] <Hixie> var r = stream.record(); ... r.getRecordedData(function(blob) { use(blob) }); ?
381. # [02:42] <Hixie> i guess that works
382. # [02:42] <Hixie> vs var r = stream.record(); ... r.getBlob(function(blob) { use(blob) });
383. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Jeez, if I do a foreach over $arr, not only does the key exist (though the array claims it doesn't) but the value is an object (not a NULL). omg.
384. # [02:46] <boogyman> TabAtkins: fail lol :(
385. # [02:47] <zewt> filesystem api is just getFile for File, fwiw, getBlob would be in line with that
386. # [02:48] <boogyman> TabAtkins: 4300 isn't a "key" it's the value of $arr[10]
387. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> boogyman: Look closer. That first array is the result of array_keys
388. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> Which produces an array whose values are the keys of the passed array.
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390. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> I'm not outputting $arr directly, because it's huge.
391. # [02:50] <Hixie> zewt: yeah but there we're getting a file (which happens to be a File), whereas here we're getting recorded data (which happens to be a Blob)
392. # [02:50] <Hixie> zewt: so it's not a clear precedent
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394. # [02:50] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Does it fail for all keys that are /^\d+$/ ?
395. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Yes.
396. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> And I think I may know why...
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400. # [02:52] <Philip`> Bug in the JSON parser that tries to use $arr as both a string-indexed and numeric-indexed array, when PHP only supports them being one or the other?
401. # [02:52] <AryehGregor> PHP supports the same array being both.
402. # [02:53] <AryehGregor> I think what they actually do is just cast numeric indexes to strings.
403. # [02:53] <AryehGregor> $ php -r '$arr = array(); $arr[1] = "foo"; $arr["1"] = "bar"; var_dump($arr[1]);'
404. # [02:53] <AryehGregor> string(3) "bar"
405. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> Okay, I was hoping that maybe it was a property rather than an array, but no, property_exists throws a warning at me.
406. # [02:53] <zewt> is the only place that actually creates Blobs right now Blob.slice()? (via File)
407. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I know! It works fine for arbitrary arrays!
408. # [02:54] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what code is the problem?
409. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> My json-backed database. I load a json file into an array (what I'm calling $arr on the test.php page), and then operate on it.
410. # [02:55] <Hixie> zewt: XHR2 probably too
411. # [02:55] <Hixie> ok i'm outta here. bbl.
412. # [02:55] <AryehGregor> What functions do you use to load the array?
413. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> json_decode
414. # [02:56] <AryehGregor> Just json_decode($str), with no further parameters specified?
415. # [02:56] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=53130 ?
416. # [02:56] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yup.
417. # [02:56] <TabAtkins> Philip`: ...yup, that's it.
418. # [02:57] <AryehGregor> Yay PHP.
419. # [02:57] <AryehGregor> Try doing json_decode($str, true).
420. # [02:57] <AryehGregor> Apparently that gives you arrays.
421. # [02:57] <AryehGregor> Which makes way more sense, in PHP.
422. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> The problem is that I don't want objects on the lower level to be coerced to arrays.
423. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> (I find object access more aesthetically pleasing than array access with string keys.)
424. # [02:58] <AryehGregor> http://us.php.net/language.types.array#language.types.array.casting
425. # [02:58] <AryehGregor> "If an object is converted to an array, the result is an array whose elements are the object's properties. The keys are the member variable names, with a few notable exceptions: integer properties are unaccessible; private variables have the class name prepended to the variable name; protected variables have a '*' prepended to the variable name. These prepended values have null bytes on either side. This can result in some unexpected behaviou
426. # [02:58] <AryehGregor> r:"
427. # [02:58] <AryehGregor> Wow, PHP is freaking broken.
428. # [02:58] <zewt> news flash
429. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> Oh my god.
430. # [02:58] <AryehGregor> "The above will appear to have two keys named 'AA', although one of them is actually named '\0A\0A'."
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432. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> This is the dumbest crap I have ever seen.
433. # [02:59] <zewt> also world round, universe large
434. # [02:59] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, this is PHP.
435. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Okay, the whole reason I was casting the decoded object into an array anyway was so I could use array_keys on it.
436. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> But I didn't know there was a get_object_vars, which should probably work too.
437. # [03:01] <zewt> i wish Python was more amenable to templating, which would make it easier for the sort of quick web hacks that PHP is used for
438. # [03:01] <zewt> that's one thing its tab syntax is very bad at
439. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> But seriously this is the brokenest thing I have ever seen PHP do. ARgh.
440. # [03:02] <TabAtkins> Going home now, I'll fix this tonight.
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442. # [03:02] <Philip`> s/fix/rewrite in a real language/ ?
443. # [03:02] <zewt> heh
444. # [03:03] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately, no. zewt's right that PHP's templating ability still makes it the easiest thing to develop small sites in.
445. # [03:03] <zewt> i can't take any language seriously now that uses $basic $variable $prefixes
446. # [03:03] <zewt> feels like someone's sneezed all over my code
447. # [03:04] <Philip`> TabAtkins: CGI + Perl works for that :-)
448. # [03:05] <zewt> perl is not really an improvement :)
449. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> yeah...
450. # [03:05] <zewt> "waiter, there seems to be glass in my soup" "would you like staples instead?"
451. # [03:07] <Philip`> PHP is weird and illogical; Perl is weirdly logical
452. # [03:07] <Philip`> Both make you say "why on Earth does it work like this?", but Perl usually has an answer
453. # [03:07] <zewt> i don't use either, except for very limited, mostly throwaway hacks
454. # [03:08] <zewt> php for quick server-side tests and very small mini-pages; perl for sed/awk-ish one-liners
455. # [03:09] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, if this is the most broken thing you've seen in PHP, you haven't programmed PHP enough.
456. # [03:09] <zewt> my take on perl is it's the only language that I've used, on and off, for over a decade, and still get headaches from the basic syntax
457. # [03:09] <AryehGregor> How about supporting getters on objects, which return null without logging any warning if they're called recursively?
458. # [03:10] <zewt> i consider myself competent enough to place the blame on perl and not myself, heh
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460. # [03:12] <boogyman> zewt: lol, as long as you believe that :P
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462. # [03:13] <zewt> versus understanding more or less all of python's syntax in a couple days :P
463. # [03:15] <roc> zewt: you're going to love CSS variables!
464. # [03:15] <zewt> do i have to :(
465. # [03:16] <boogyman> roc: might need to wait a couple yrs for that
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568. # [09:03] <annevk> morning
569. # [09:03] <annevk> AryehGregor, we nuked CDATASection in favor of just Text
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573. # [09:22] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/progress-events/ Last Call
574. # [09:22] <annevk> better comment by June 1 or we'll ignore you
575. # [09:22] <annevk> (but not really, but still it would be nice if you did)
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577. # [09:24] <zcorpan> http://www.aminutewithbrendan.com/pages/20110308 - pretty sure we can't add an operator called 'div'
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581. # [09:36] * jgraham advises caution around arguments that boil down to "PHP is the easiest language because it lets me mix output and code freely"
582. # [09:37] <jgraham> Really Python + any template library will save you a lot of badness if the site ever grows
583. # [09:37] <jgraham> In somewhat related news
584. # [09:38] <jgraham> Hixie: The use case gsnedders was failing to explain was the "we have x% of tests done and a further y% currently assigned to test machines"
585. # [09:39] <jgraham> "and we want a progress bar that looks like [xxxxxyy ]
586. # [09:39] <jgraham> so that one can see at a glance how much is done and how much will be done soon"
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589. # [09:41] <annevk> what to do in the day before last
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591. # [09:41] <annevk> I think I'm pretty much done with everything I wanted and it seems kind of late to start something new...
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593. # [09:50] <matijsb> go spinning :)
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599. # [10:00] <annevk> hehe
600. # [10:00] <annevk> if I could go in an hour from now...
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605. # [10:16] <annevk> http://dev.twitter.com/doc/get/statuses/user_timeline has an undocumented parameter (and maybe more) called exclude_replies which can be set to true
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608. # [10:21] <annevk> no idea how to give feedback on that website so I'll just leave it here in case someone here works for twitter or knows someone who does
609. # [10:22] <annevk> (oh, and please don't kill the feature, it's useful :) )
610. # [10:22] <zcorpan> Hixie: role=presentation on <table> implies role=presentation on all the rows and cells as well
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624. # [11:05] <annevk> MikeSmith, all okay?
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626. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, not dead
627. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> yet
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629. # [11:09] <annevk> good good
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640. # [11:41] <annevk> myakura is also ok it seems :)
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650. # [11:48] <annevk> I guess I should do expenses
651. # [11:48] <annevk> :/
652. # [11:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: ok good. i assumed it'd be something like that, or the decision would be even more ridiculous.
653. # [11:55] <Hixie> anyone in the bay area, if you haven't heard yet, tsunami is expected to hit us at 8:08am so stay half-a-mile or more away from the coast.
654. # [11:55] <Hixie> anyone else in the pacific region, check local broadcasts.
655. # [11:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you ok?
656. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
657. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> things remarkably undamaged here outside
658. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> despite a pretty good amount of shaking
659. # [11:56] <annevk> I saw this on twitter
660. # [11:57] <annevk> """The headline you won't be reading: "Millions saved in Japan by good engineering and government building codes". Buts it's the truth."""
661. # [11:58] <Hixie> MikeSmith: good to hear. the video we're seeing on the news is pretty scary.,
662. # [11:58] * jgraham wonders what all the free-market-liberterian-kooks think about building codes
663. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> yeah, up north in Sendai things were worse
664. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> with the tsunami
665. # [11:59] <Peter-> I saw the video of the tsunami progressing inland on the news, that's horrible
666. # [12:00] <Hixie> i saw one video with a huge ball of fire being pushed along by the water, that was one of hte most disturbing images
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669. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think a refinery in Chiba caught fire
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672. # [12:05] <wilhelm> Looks like everyone at Opera's Tokyo office and my other friends in town are all okay.
673. # [12:05] <Hixie> good to know
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675. # [12:13] <Rik`> same for Mozilla Japan
676. # [12:14] <Rik`> the office has been shaken http://www.flickr.com/photos/dynamozilla/5516432243/in/set-72157626116876855/
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679. # [12:16] <wilhelm> http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/190668_10150438508240355_802015354_17665227_4360168_n.jpg (c:
680. # [12:23] <jgraham> Hixie: When one "Remove any tasks queued by the history traversal task source." I assume that is irrespective of the document associated with the task?
681. # [12:24] <jgraham> e.g. if I pushState in an iframe it will clear a navigation queued in the parent?
682. # [12:24] <jgraham> Why is clearing the navigation desirable?
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687. # [12:43] <myakura> it feels like i'm getting seasick..
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697. # [13:07] <hsivonen> good to see that myakura and MikeSmith are apparently at relatively safe locations
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709. # [13:51] <jgraham> heycam: So it it not clear to me exactly what it means in WebIDL to "implement the interface"
710. # [13:52] <jgraham> But the real question I have is that if I have, for example, an exception that implements DOMException, what should
711. # [13:52] <jgraham> exception instanceof other_window.DOMException
712. # [13:52] <jgraham> return?
713. # [13:54] * jgraham assumes false since the exception doesn't "implement the interface", but is an instance of a constructor that does, or something
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721. # [14:11] <asmodai> mmm, Windows 7's math input panel generates a lot of unnecessary mrow's in their mathml output
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769. # [16:41] <hsivonen> Remember to object, folks: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-56-objection-poll/
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786. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: I don't understand the implications of any of the options in that poll.
787. # [17:21] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: well, at least IRIBIS has failed to deliver
788. # [17:21] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: as mentioned in my Objection, Larry's Proposal is already over a year old!
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805. # [18:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Isn't the security concern with drawWindow not just cross-origin stuff?
806. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> I... wouldn't think so?
807. # [18:07] <jgraham> The comment emoller quoted suggests it is
808. # [18:08] <jgraham> "endering the user's theme and then extracting the results
809. # [18:08] <jgraham> +r
810. # [18:08] <jgraham> rendering native anonymous content (e.g., file input paths"
811. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> Darn, I skimmed past that part.
812. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> I doubt that the user's theme is security-conscious, though I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.
813. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> File inputs are a bit more important.
814. # [18:09] <hober> hsivonen: your objection should really apply to both the first and second proposals
815. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> We can render those specially as blank inputs, I guess?
816. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> Or just punch holes in the canvas there.
817. # [18:10] <hober> hsivonen: since the second proposal relies on the IRIbis folks providing a spec that adheres to the interface described in the proposal
818. # [18:10] <hsivonen> hober: might be worthwhile to point that out on the poll
819. # [18:11] <smaug____> user theme is not security, but possible privacy issue
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822. # [18:13] <jgraham> Is the security concern about reading colours from non-standard themes to make fake popups and so on look more convincing?
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824. # [18:13] <jgraham> (that doesn't seem like a very strong concern, but maybe I am wrong)
825. # [18:14] <smaug____> ah, indeed, that would make it a some kind of security issue
826. # [18:14] <hober> hsivonen: here's the current IRIbis text about "href" values: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis-03#section-7.2
827. # [18:15] <hober> hsivonen: would you agree that it doesn't meet the needs of hixie's CP?
828. # [18:15] <Philip`> drawWindow would have to hide visited link colours too
829. # [18:15] <hober> hsivonen: I'm writing up my poll reply now actually :)
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832. # [18:16] <hsivonen> hober: sorry. I have to step away from the computer and can't review right now.
833. # [18:16] <hober> hsivonen: fair enough
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868. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> annevk, are browsers planning to drop of CDATASection? Are there bugs filed and such? I don't see a Gecko bug.
869. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> If there are no plans to act on it, I don't think the spec should claim this change is true.
870. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Where was this discussed, and who supported it?
871. # [20:22] * Ms2ger notes that cdata sections in HTML turn into Text nodes
872. # [20:23] <annevk> the spec has a few such things without bugs
873. # [20:23] <annevk> it's both ideas and reality
874. # [20:23] <annevk> somewhat of a mixed bag
875. # [20:23] <annevk> anyway, it's my time off now :)
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878. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> I'd do it, but our XML parser hurts my eyes
879. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Surely it's better than the HTML parser.
880. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> Nope
881. # [20:32] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
882. # [20:36] <smaug____> Ms2ger: ?
883. # [20:37] <smaug____> Gecko's XML parser is expat
884. # [20:37] <smaug____> is that really bad?
885. # [20:37] <zewt> i don't know if it's good or bad, but it's certainly very common...
886. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> You can judge it for yourself, but I think I'm going to stay away :)
887. # [20:40] <zewt> i try to stay away from xml in general :)
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918. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> Could anyone explain to me why <view-source:http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges> is not well-formed? My XML library claims there's a mismatched tag, but I just can't see it at the claimed position.
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921. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
922. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> <br>.
923. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Huh.
924. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Okay, never mind.
925. # [22:10] <Philip`> <br><span style="color: #999999;"><b>TEST WIKI</b></span></div>
926. # [22:11] <Philip`> Oh, too late
927. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I just mentally skipped over the <br>.
928. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> It would help if my library told me where the bad opening tag was.
929. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> (Python's xml.sax in this case)
930. # [22:11] <Philip`> xmllint says "parser error : Opening and ending tag mismatch: br line 62 and div"
931. # [22:12] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
932. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> That's more helpful.
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934. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Okay, well, the well-formedness error isn't $wgHtml5's fault, so I don't have to fix it.
935. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Now we're ready for try three of Wikipedia on HTML5!
936. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Whenever a sysadmin gets around to it, anyway.
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941. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Man, <xmp> really does make my examples way easier to read. I'll have to take it out eventually due to pubrules, but it's so nice to use it in my editor's drafts.
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944. # [22:34] <jamesr> AryehGregor: no more xhtml?
945. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> jamesr, <!DOCTYPE html> is the plan. But we'll still output well-formed XML, because of all the screen-scraping bots that depend on it.
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947. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Including browser-based stuff using XHR responseXML or whatever it's called, who can't easily switch to a non-XML parser.
948. # [22:36] <jamesr> AryehGregor: heh - that would actually make wikipedia load a lot faster in webkit because we currently don't prefetch for anything that we parse with the XML parser but we do prefetch stuff that uses the HTML parser
949. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> jamesr, we've always been serving as text/html.
950. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Serving with an XML MIME type would be insane.
951. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> For all sorts of reasons.
952. # [22:36] <jamesr> yeah but we for some reason use the XML parser, iirc
953. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Seriously?
954. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> That sounds incredibly unlikely.
955. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> It violates the HTML5 spec, and it also would break some pages.
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957. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Because we don't output well-formed XML 100% of the time, there are known bugs.
958. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Like: http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
959. # [22:37] <jamesr> it's an XML doctype, hmmm
960. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, but no browser actually parses as XML if there's an XML doctype present.
961. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Loads of pages have XML doctypes but are horribly malformed.
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963. # [22:38] <jamesr> time for gdb
964. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> Just observe that you can load http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges in WebKit and don't get a YSOD.
965. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> But it's malformed.
966. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> (<br> instead of <br />)
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974. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> "Compared to CSS, tables take more bandwidth, they aren't as cacheable, they require you to cut images, they result in pages that aren't as maintainable, and aren't rendered incrementally in many browsers."
975. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> What browsers don't render tables incrementally?
976. # [23:14] <Philip`> Netscape 4?
977. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> Or does it just mean that they do a two-pass layout and jump as the page loads?
978. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Okay, does Netscape 4 count as "many"?
979. # [23:15] * Philip` was just guessing about Netscape
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981. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Personally, I think the chairs made the right decision in ISSUE-130.
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983. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Hurrah for <table role=presentation>.
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989. # [23:25] * AryehGregor makes a mental note to add role= support to MediaWiki
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1002. # [23:59] <Hixie> hey does anyone know what "valid" means here? the definition makes no sense to me:
1003. # [23:59] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#valid
1004. # Session Close: Sat Mar 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)