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- # Session Start: Sun Mar 13 00:00:00 2011
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
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- # [00:24] <Hixie> hober: anything interesting happen?
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- # [00:40] <hober> Hixie: dunno, not there
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- # [14:23] <eyebrows> I guess the guy who came up with 0.5 pixel measurements for canvas strokes left his logic at the door too
- # [14:23] <eyebrows> I mean, really
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- # [18:44] <AryehGregor> Heh: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Mar/0015.html
- # [18:45] <AryehGregor> So, Hixie, what are these "many browsers" that don't render tables incrementally?
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- # [19:03] <zewt> http://kathack.com/ probably old but o_O
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- # [20:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: hm?
- # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Hixie, browsers render tables incrementally, don't they? Or did you just mean they have to reflow them?
- # [20:56] <Hixie> it varies
- # [20:56] <AryehGregor> How so?
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- # [20:57] <Hixie> hold on, let me get you a test
- # [21:01] <Hixie> hrm, how do i turn off deflate compression
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- # [21:06] <zewt> some htaccess magic?
- # [21:09] <zewt> in apache .htaccess, SetEnv no-gzip
- # [21:12] <Hixie> oooh
- # [21:12] <Hixie> cunning
- # [21:15] <Hixie> even with that the server is still returning the file back in one block, bummer
- # [21:16] <erlehmann> Hixie, what are you trying to accomplish?
- # [21:16] <zewt> see if <? sleep(2) ?> in php causes it to send incrementally (or if it just blocks)
- # [21:16] <Hixie> have the server return cells with a one second pause between them
- # [21:16] <Hixie> using perl
- # [21:16] <zewt> or just stuff a bunch of whitespace to convince it to send some
- # [21:17] <Hixie> i'm stuffing 1024 'x's between each cell
- # [21:17] <Hixie> 4096 even
- # [21:17] <Hixie> that really should be enough
- # [21:17] <Hixie> even 40960 isn't enough
- # [21:17] <AryehGregor> Are you sure you're flushing the output buffer when you pause?
- # [21:17] <zewt> is apache just waiting for the whole thing so it can send content-length?
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- # [21:18] <zewt> not sure how to force chunked
- # [21:19] <zewt> curl: (56) Received problem 2 in the chunky parser
- # [21:19] <zewt> chunky parser? sounds delicious
- # [21:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'm outputting 40K of content before sleeping, if that doesn't force it i don't know what will
- # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Maybe it will buffer indefinitely unless you explicitly flush the buffer.
- # [21:20] <Hixie> how do i flush the buffer?
- # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I don't know. In PHP with ob, it's ob_flush().
- # [21:20] <zewt> ah php switches to chunked automatically if you call flush()
- # [21:20] <AryehGregor> Without ob I guess it's flush().
- # [21:21] <zewt> Hixie: this works for me in PHP, anyway http://pastebin.com/NUBf9tCq
- # [21:21] <zewt> don't know about perl
- # [21:21] <zewt> no padding needed
- # [21:21] <Hixie> well i have perl's autoflush mode enabled
- # [21:21] <Hixie> i don't know what's up
- # [21:21] <Philip`> If it's CGI, there's use IO::Handle; STDOUT->flush;
- # [21:22] * Philip` doesn't know what buffering Apache does
- # [21:22] <zewt> i'd imagine that unless you actually somehow tell it to, it won't turn on chunked (in php, calling flush() is also telling it to do that)
- # [21:22] <Hixie> tried that too, with no success
- # [21:22] <Hixie> oh well
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- # [21:22] <heycam> jgraham, just by following http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-exception-hasinstance it seems to require that to be true [exception instanceof other_window.DOMException]
- # [21:22] <zewt> http://zewt.org/~glenn/delay.php
- # [21:23] <heycam> jgraham, but the spec doesn't really deal with multiple globals specifically...
- # [21:24] <heycam> jgraham, if you think "instanceof"s like this (and `node instanceof other_window.Node`) should be returning false, let me know
- # [21:24] <heycam> jgraham, (probably they should be returning false, since that's what'd happen with say `myObj instanceof other_window.Object`)
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- # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Who would be a good Mozilla person to ask about execCommand()?
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- # [21:38] <AryehGregor> roc, smaug____, volkmar, do any of you know who a good Mozilla person is to ask for feedback about my execCommand() spec?
- # [21:38] <roc> ehsan
- # [21:38] <volkmar> AryehGregor: ehsan i think
- # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Okay, thanks.
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- # [21:43] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Email hallvord for anything frm an Opera POV, FWIW
- # [21:43] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, okay, I'll CC him too.
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- # [21:44] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
- # [21:44] <gsnedders> *from
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- # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Okay, e-mail sent.
- # [21:50] <AryehGregor> anolis --dump-xrefs intermediate.html /tmp/spec is hanging, by the way.
- # [21:51] <AryehGregor> http://pastebin.com/3rJJkWcY
- # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Just freezes there forever.
- # [21:51] * AryehGregor tries updating it
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- # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Nope, still hangs.
- # [21:52] <AryehGregor> It's Ms2ger's hacked version.
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- # [22:03] <erlehmann> I believe this is old news for almost all of you, but can someone tell me if that is a practical joke? <http://whyfirefoxisblocked.com/>
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- # [22:08] <Hixie> it was intended seriously (back in the mid 200s)
- # [22:09] <Hixie> however it was seriously misguided then and remains so now :-)
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- # [22:10] <Hixie> mid 2000s even
- # [22:12] <erlehmann> Hixie, I stand confused from the logic: “Too few visitors are viewing my ads, so I'm blocking everyone – even the 95% without an ad blocker from viewing my page (and, by extension, my ads).”
- # [22:13] <Hixie> it's even worse than that
- # [22:13] <erlehmann> This seems like one of these shows making fun of bureaucrats … ON THE INTERNET.
- # [22:13] <Hixie> the people _with_ ad blockers have the ability to work around the block, so they still see the content
- # [22:13] <Hixie> the people _without_ ad blockers learn about them
- # [22:14] <erlehmann> Oh wow. m(
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- # [22:15] <zewt> the mid 200s? yeah i guess 1800 years ago this might have passed for rational thought :)
- # [22:16] <zewt> that's pretty high comedy--"too few people click my ads, so I need to reduce it further"
- # [22:17] <zewt> i'm honestly surprised there's as little ad-blocker-blocking in the wild as there is; it's not like there's a shortage of people with such bad judgement
- # [22:18] <zewt> i'm similarly surprised there's very little effort to try to make ads that can't be blocked; it's an arms race that ad blockers would ultimately lose
- # [22:21] <Hixie> most people don't mind ads
- # [22:21] <erlehmann> zewt, how do you know they haven't already lost? ;)
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- # [22:21] <zewt> erlehmann: largely because I almost never see ads :)
- # [22:21] <Hixie> imho ads are fine so long as they are (a) useful and relevant and (b) not actually blocking the content or annoying
- # [22:21] <erlehmann> dito here.
- # [22:22] <erlehmann> zewt, parsed sentence wrong: thought ad blockers would win and ad companies would lose.
- # [22:22] <Hixie> (interstitial and preroll ads on big blogs and in video streams drive me crazy)
- # [22:22] <zewt> Hixie: sure, but a whole lot of ads are neither of those things :)
- # [22:22] <Hixie> yeah
- # [22:23] <erlehmann> Well, relevant content is relevant.
- # [22:23] <zewt> there are plenty of ads and ad providers who just want to spam banners everywhere they can--it's that sort I'm surprised aren't trying harder to thwart blockers
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- # [22:24] <erlehmann> I consider ad blockers as a tool to skew the signal-to-noise-ratio in my favor – they are not the only ones, I once wrote a userscript utilizing LZW compression to remove repetitive spammy comments from my view of an imageboard.
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- # [22:24] <erlehmann> It was funny when I realized it also blocked legit comments that were just not that interesting due to repetitive style.
- # [22:25] <Hixie> what's sad is that relevant and useful ads make so much more money than irrelevant and annoying ads, it makes you wonder why people keep on using the annoying ones
- # [22:25] <zewt> not every type of site has ads that are really relevant to it, though
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- # [22:26] <zewt> if you're reviewing graphics cards then it's easy; if you're blogging about earthquakes in japan, not so much
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- # [22:28] <erlehmann> Anyone having usable CSS for @cite? I'm currently using this: blockquote::after { content: "<" attr(cite) ">"; }
- # [22:28] <erlehmann> should probably be blockquote[cite]::after
- # [22:28] <wilhelm> zewt: CNN at least tries to be relevant: http://i.imgur.com/GTNjf.png :P
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- # [22:37] <erlehmann> wilhelm, could be worse. At least 4chan is not displaying fake ads for “S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Fukushima”.
- # [22:37] <erlehmann> (but given the puddi disaster, that may happen)
- # [22:38] <erlehmann> btw, adblock was extremely useful against puddi
- # [22:39] <erlehmann> oh wait, the puddi video was an ad. so obvious it hurts.
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- # [23:26] <AryehGregor> How did I not think to test whitespace stripping in my reflection tests?
- # [23:26] <AryehGregor> I'll have to fix that.
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- # [23:37] <AryehGregor> I'm mildly amused when I see people who use complicated jQuery stuff when they could use much simpler built-in features.
- # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Like: var tabIndex = parseInt( $(this).attr( 'tabindex' ), 10 );
- # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Instead of, let's say: var tabIndex = this.tabIndex;
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- # [23:48] <erlehmann> wat
- # Session Close: Mon Mar 14 00:00:00 2011
The end :)