/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-14 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 14 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:01] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
4. # [00:02] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
5. # [00:06] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-49-85.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
6. # [00:11] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
7. # [00:11] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
8. # [00:18] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-169-147-115.dyn.iinet.net.au)
9. # [00:21] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
10. # [00:24] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-169-147-115.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
11. # [00:27] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
12. # [00:29] * Joins: micheil (~micheil@27-32-9-172.static.tpgi.com.au)
13. # [00:29] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@27-32-9-172.static.tpgi.com.au) (Client Quit)
14. # [00:36] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
15. # [01:04] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@user-160vrg5.cable.mindspring.com)
16. # [01:05] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@20.74.9.46.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
17. # [01:07] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
18. # [01:08] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
19. # [01:11] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-zysfguaytusoefhv) (Remote host closed the connection)
20. # [01:12] * Joins: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-kijqzqigcqblryag)
21. # [01:13] * Joins: taf2 (~taf2@pool-71-179-111-26.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net)
22. # [01:27] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23. # [01:32] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
24. # [01:36] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
25. # [01:37] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
26. # [01:44] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
27. # [01:45] * Quits: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125) (Quit: Page closed)
28. # [02:12] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
29. # [02:21] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-99-189-162-6.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
30. # [02:27] * Parts: eXXe (fsosby@s2.rdlbnc.com)
31. # [02:33] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
32. # [02:34] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc11-seac19-2-0-cust116.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
33. # [02:38] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
34. # [02:46] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
35. # [02:46] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.110) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
36. # [02:50] * Joins: ivmarcin (~ivanmarci@c-76-102-40-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
37. # [02:51] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
38. # [03:02] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
39. # [03:07] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@user-160vrg5.cable.mindspring.com) (Quit: miketaylr)
40. # [03:13] * Quits: rolandsteiner (~rolandste@2401:fa00:4:1000:225:ff:feee:ff2b) (Quit: rolandsteiner)
41. # [03:34] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-18-47-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
42. # [03:45] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@t049235.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
43. # [03:45] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
44. # [03:50] * Quits: ivmarcin (~ivanmarci@c-76-102-40-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ivmarcin)
45. # [03:51] * Quits: JoePeck (~JoePeck@c-76-102-33-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: -)
46. # [03:52] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-49-85.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
47. # [03:56] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
48. # [03:57] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.14/20110301090359])
49. # [04:02] * Quits: toyoshim (~toyoshim@y241242.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
50. # [04:05] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
51. # [04:11] * Joins: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
52. # [04:14] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
53. # [04:27] * Quits: hasather (~davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
54. # [04:51] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@pool-71-179-111-26.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) (Quit: taf2)
55. # [04:54] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
56. # [04:55] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
57. # [04:57] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Client Quit)
58. # [04:57] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
59. # [05:01] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
60. # [05:03] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Client Quit)
61. # [05:07] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
62. # [05:11] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-6f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
63. # [05:16] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
64. # [05:20] * Quits: SteveGL (~dev@174-21-143-93.tukw.qwest.net) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
65. # [05:26] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
66. # [05:27] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
67. # [05:28] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: bentruyman)
68. # [05:38] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
69. # [05:41] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
70. # [05:48] * Joins: here (~mike@174-31-137-242.tukw.qwest.net)
71. # [05:53] * Quits: nonge (~nonge@p50829D37.dip.t-dialin.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
72. # [05:56] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
73. # [05:58] * Joins: dydx (~dydz@adsl-75-36-189-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
74. # [05:59] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me)
75. # [06:01] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
76. # [06:02] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
77. # [06:05] * Quits: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
78. # [06:07] * Joins: nonge (~nonge@p5082A80D.dip.t-dialin.net)
79. # [06:09] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@99-34-231-235.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
80. # [06:14] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
81. # [06:16] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
82. # [06:25] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
83. # [06:43] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (*.net *.split)
84. # [06:43] * Quits: purefusion (~purefusio@unaffiliated/purefusion) (*.net *.split)
85. # [06:43] * Quits: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01) (*.net *.split)
86. # [06:43] * Quits: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
87. # [06:46] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Going!)
88. # [06:51] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
89. # [06:51] * Joins: stalled (~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled)
90. # [06:51] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
91. # [06:57] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
92. # [06:57] * Joins: purefusion (~purefusio@unaffiliated/purefusion)
93. # [06:57] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
94. # [06:57] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
95. # [06:57] * Quits: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec) (Quit: Leaving)
96. # [06:58] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
97. # [06:58] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
98. # [07:02] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-gecxcnhnjyezlibp)
99. # [07:02] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
100. # [07:02] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
101. # [07:05] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
102. # [07:09] * Joins: wakaba__ (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
103. # [07:09] * Quits: wakaba__ (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
104. # [07:23] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-6f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
105. # [07:27] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
106. # [07:27] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
107. # [07:39] <Hixie> abarth: yt?
108. # [07:40] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@108-78-249-73.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
109. # [07:41] <Hixie> abarth: i have a string of bytes of variable length which i'm sending in a UDP packet. i can limit the total allowed length of the input to an arbitrary limit, e.g. 30K, 60K, whatever fits in an IPv6 UDP packet (65487 bytes as far as I can tell would therefore be the max). I want to make sure it is masked so it can't ever be used to reliably attack a service.
110. # [07:41] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
111. # [07:42] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
112. # [07:42] <Hixie> is there a good way to do that? the most obvious way seems to be to limit it to 30K and make each packet contain first a one-time pad of equal length (and completely random) followed by the data xor'ed with that pad
113. # [07:42] <Hixie> but is there some crypto magic that would be better?
114. # [07:43] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
115. # [07:44] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
116. # [07:44] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
117. # [07:44] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
118. # [07:52] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
119. # [07:52] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
120. # [07:53] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
121. # [07:54] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
122. # [08:02] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
123. # [08:02] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
124. # [08:04] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
125. # [08:06] <abarth> Hixie: hey
126. # [08:07] <abarth> Hixie:
127. # [08:07] <abarth> Hixie: yay
128. # [08:07] <abarth> s/yay/yeah/
129. # [08:07] <abarth> just use AES-128-CTR
130. # [08:07] <Hixie> cool
131. # [08:07] <abarth> send a nonce
132. # [08:07] <abarth> then HMAC a unique id with the nonce to get the key
133. # [08:07] <abarth> and use AES-128-CTR
134. # [08:08] <abarth> the CTR is the important part
135. # [08:08] <Hixie> k
136. # [08:08] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-146f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
137. # [08:08] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
138. # [08:08] <Hixie> wait CTR won't work if the receiver doesn't receive everything right?
139. # [08:09] <Hixie> this is UDP so the delivery is unreliable
140. # [08:09] <abarth> CTR is a stream cipher
141. # [08:09] <abarth> you want to re-key with each packet
142. # [08:09] <Hixie> ah ok
143. # [08:09] <abarth> you can decrypt each byte as it arives
144. # [08:09] <Hixie> right
145. # [08:09] <Hixie> cool, thanks
146. # [08:10] <Hixie> and the unique id is unique to the spec? or to the UA? or to the packet?
147. # [08:10] <Hixie> spec presumably
148. # [08:10] <abarth> the spec
149. # [08:10] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
150. # [08:10] <Hixie> how big should the nonce and unique id be?
151. # [08:10] <Hixie> 16 bytes?
152. # [08:11] <abarth> yeah, that should be plenty
153. # [08:11] <abarth> for the unique id, you can just use uuidgen
154. # [08:11] <Hixie> i figured i'd pipe /dev/urandom to head then to hexdump :-)
155. # [08:12] <abarth> that works too :)
156. # [08:12] <Hixie> to get 16 random bytes i can copy-paste into the spec :-)
157. # [08:13] <Hixie> does websocket -06 have prose for this that's spec-ready by any chance?
158. # [08:13] <abarth> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-websocket-handshake-01 probably does
159. # [08:14] <abarth> looking
160. # [08:14] <abarth> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-websocket-handshake-00
161. # [08:14] <abarth> 27
162. # [08:14] <abarth> step 27 on page 9
163. # [08:15] <Hixie> awesome
164. # [08:15] <Hixie> thanks
165. # [08:15] <abarth> there's a NIST document you can reference for AES-128-CTR
166. # [08:16] <Hixie> references i'm good with :-)
167. # [08:16] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
168. # [08:16] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
169. # [08:16] <hsivonen> http://blog.lostdecadegames.com/an-html5-game-in-the-mac-app-store Somehow I'm annoyed at how the article claims that Chrome and WebKit on Mac are "completely different platform[s]"
170. # [08:17] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
171. # [08:31] <annevk> w3.org Bugzilla slow for anyone else?
172. # [08:44] * Joins: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125)
173. # [08:44] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
174. # [08:45] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
175. # [08:46] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@77.222.73.150)
176. # [08:49] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@adsl-75-36-189-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydx)
177. # [08:51] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
178. # [08:51] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
179. # [08:52] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
180. # [08:59] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com)
181. # [09:01] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Client Quit)
182. # [09:08] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
183. # [09:08] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
184. # [09:15] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
185. # [09:17] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
186. # [09:19] <annevk> subjects so far: extend paragraphs/inline lists; datalist stuff; WebApps publications; cross-origin databases
187. # [09:20] <annevk> maybe I should write about the license debate hmm
188. # [09:24] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@195.130.156.13)
189. # [09:29] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
190. # [09:31] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@108-78-249-73.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
191. # [09:32] * Joins: msucan (~robod@89.123.152.38)
192. # [09:34] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
193. # [09:36] <Hixie> annevk: what exception should i fire for when too much data has been passed to a method? (specifically, too much data to fit in a UDP packet)
194. # [09:37] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
195. # [09:37] <Hixie> INVALID_ACCESS_ERR?
196. # [09:37] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net)
197. # [09:38] <annevk> INDEX_SIZE_ERR ?
198. # [09:38] <annevk> hmm I guess that's not quite correct
199. # [09:38] <Hixie> yeah i made the same mistake
200. # [09:38] <Hixie> i guess SIZE_ERR is misleading
201. # [09:39] <hsivonen> hmm. the spec is silent on how to render runs of multiple spaces in the values of a title attribute
202. # [09:39] <hsivonen> or tabs
203. # [09:39] <hsivonen> or carriage returns
204. # [09:39] <Hixie> we mention line feeds though right?
205. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes
206. # [09:39] <Hixie> k good
207. # [09:39] <Hixie> if you want more specifics, please file a bug or send mail, happy to add more
208. # [09:40] <annevk> INVALID_ACCESS_ERR sounds good
209. # [09:40] <Hixie> CRs should be treated the same as NULLs
210. # [09:40] <annevk> I can also add a new one
211. # [09:40] <Hixie> (or any control character)
212. # [09:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: OK. I guess I need to test what other browsers do first, so I know what to ask for!
213. # [09:40] <Hixie> annevk: wasn't sure what to call it that would be generic enough to make it useful yet less generic than INVALID_ACCESS_ERR
214. # [09:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: :-)
215. # [09:41] <annevk> QUOTA_EXCEEDED_ERR is quite close too, but it's named in a specific way
216. # [09:41] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
217. # [09:41] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
218. # [09:41] <annevk> actually no, that's quite different
219. # [09:41] <annevk> meh
220. # [09:41] * annevk goes back to writing WHATWG Weekly
221. # [09:41] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
222. # [09:42] * zcorpan disables [FLASH] feature in the forums
223. # [09:43] <zcorpan> a bit scary that phpbb3 allows remote flash embedding in user posts by default
224. # [09:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it indeed is
225. # [09:44] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
226. # [09:44] <hsivonen> not only a bit scary
227. # [09:44] <Hixie> luckily the forums are isolated on their own origin
228. # [09:45] <hsivonen> Grr. Why doesn't the Gnome Character Map include ASCII?
229. # [09:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe somebody pulls off an attack against the other origins on the same virtual machine with Flash sockets
230. # [09:47] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
231. # [09:47] <Hixie> zcorpan: well we're not going to be any safer if we disable flash if that's the attack scenario
232. # [09:48] <zcorpan> maybe not :)
233. # [09:50] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc11-seac19-2-0-cust116.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
234. # [09:51] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
235. # [09:51] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
236. # [09:55] <hsivonen> hmm. this is interesting: IE9 seems to handle literal tab and escaped tab differently in the title attribute
237. # [09:56] <hsivonen> no I fail
238. # [09:56] <hsivonen> editor set to expand tabs to spaces
239. # [09:58] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
240. # [09:58] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
241. # [09:58] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
242. # [10:01] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
243. # [10:02] * Joins: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host153-10-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
244. # [10:02] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
245. # [10:04] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
246. # [10:04] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
247. # [10:05] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
248. # [10:05] * mhausenblas_ is now known as mhausenblas
249. # [10:06] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
250. # [10:07] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
251. # [10:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: Gnome Character Map does include ASCII
252. # [10:08] <jgraham> It's called "Basic Latin"
253. # [10:08] * jgraham thought that annevk was away
254. # [10:08] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
255. # [10:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh right. I got fooled by having Latin 1 selected and being unable to scroll up
256. # [10:09] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com)
257. # [10:09] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
258. # [10:10] <hsivonen> it also confuses me greatly that the Unicode Blocks are sorted by name alphabetically instead of being sorted by code point order
259. # [10:10] <jgraham> Yeah, having a by-codepoint view might be nice
260. # [10:10] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Client Quit)
261. # [10:11] <jgraham> Hixie: Is it intentional that one can now nest <input> inside <button>?
262. # [10:11] <hsivonen> and it irks me that there's no in-windows search field, so I have to use ctrl-f
263. # [10:11] <Hixie> one can?
264. # [10:11] <Hixie> how can one?
265. # [10:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: intentional as in conformance or as in parser?
266. # [10:11] <jgraham> Hixie: <button><input></button>
267. # [10:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: In the parser
268. # [10:11] <Hixie> oh in the parser
269. # [10:11] <Hixie> no idea
270. # [10:12] <Hixie> what changed it?
271. # [10:12] <Hixie> what do browsers do?
272. # [10:12] <jgraham> We specced the parser
273. # [10:12] <jgraham> Before we specced the parser it didn't work
274. # [10:12] <jgraham> :)
275. # [10:12] <Hixie> if all browsers do otherwise and the parser spec has always allowed it then it was an oversight due to incomplete testing
276. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I expect to become very tired of switching between IE9 and IE8 VM snapshots...
277. # [10:12] <jgraham> I think HTML5 browsers allow it and pre-HTML5 browsers don't
278. # [10:13] <jgraham> I haven't tried IE
279. # [10:13] <jgraham> (I suppose s/HTML5/parser spec/
280. # [10:13] <jgraham> )
281. # [10:13] <zcorpan> jgraham: in ie the input is put inside the button but it doesn't render
282. # [10:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: IE8 allows them nest
283. # [10:14] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
284. # [10:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: so interop FTW!
285. # [10:15] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does it render in ie8?
286. # [10:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: AFAICT, the input isn't rendered
287. # [10:16] <jgraham> Well I am not adverse to just leaving things as-is; it just means that I need to change some tests that assume the old behaviour
288. # [10:16] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
289. # [10:16] <annevk> jgraham, leaving 4AM tomorrow, flying to Madrid from Germany at around 8AM
290. # [10:16] <hsivonen> I'm greatly annoyed by Microsoft not allowing XP Mode to be run on the VM of my choice outside Windows 7
291. # [10:16] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
292. # [10:16] <annevk> jgraham, arriving in Bogotá at around 5PM local time if all goes well...
293. # [10:16] <jgraham> Having a visible, but unclickable input is weird but so are lots of things
294. # [10:17] <hsivonen> Virtual PC doesn't work when Windows 7 itself is itself running in a VM
295. # [10:17] <jgraham> annevk: I see
296. # [10:17] <hsivonen> anyway, I don't have IE6 or IE7 to test with on this computer
297. # [10:17] * Joins: KDN (~KDN@202.171.164.210)
298. # [10:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: Clearly, the parsing algorithm is correct. Maybe we should consider doing
299. # [10:19] <hsivonen> button input { display: none; }
300. # [10:19] * Quits: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-104-86.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
301. # [10:19] <jgraham> Yes
302. # [10:20] <hsivonen> in other news, it seems the Gnome folks don't actively test their site in IE8
303. # [10:20] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-layout-table
304. # [10:20] <hsivonen> got a bug report about API doc layout changing on gnome.org due to the HTML5 parser
305. # [10:20] <hsivonen> when AFAICT, we became more like IE
306. # [10:21] <hsivonen> the <br></br> thing
307. # [10:21] <jgraham> It seems quite plausible that very few gnome developers *have* IE…
308. # [10:22] <hsivonen> sadly, enhanced interop may be thought of as a bug in the context of Linux or Mac-oriented sites
309. # [10:22] * Joins: richt (~richt@pat-tdc.opera.com)
310. # [10:22] <hsivonen> well, fortunately, it's not the end of the world if API listings have some extra blank lines
311. # [10:22] <hsivonen> also, XHTML as text/html for the lose
312. # [10:23] * Joins: sroussey (~sroussey@adsl-69-234-104-86.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
313. # [10:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: It would be astonishingly shortsighted for the people who benefit from greater interop in general (those running on minority platforms) to view interop as a negative thing
314. # [10:25] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
315. # [10:26] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
316. # [10:26] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
317. # [10:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: a better attack scenario would be attacking the admin panel
318. # [10:27] <Hixie> sure
319. # [10:27] <Hixie> allowing embedded flash is equivalent to allowing embedded <script>
320. # [10:28] <Hixie> i was just saying the damage would be isolated to the forums
321. # [10:28] <zcorpan> yeah
322. # [10:28] <hsivonen> I think the background image breakage on http://www.buzzmachine.com/ shows a huge win for interop
323. # [10:29] <hsivonen> the page "worked" in pre-HTML5 non-IE browsers but the HTML5 parser-enabled builds of non-IE browsers break the page exactly like IE
324. # [10:30] <davve__> he
325. # [10:30] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226)
326. # [10:31] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what's the cause of the background breakage on that page?
327. # [10:31] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
328. # [10:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: <ul><div><li>foo</li></div></ul>, I've been told
329. # [10:32] <zcorpan> did pre-HTML5 non-IE pop the div?
330. # [10:33] <hsivonen> or maybe the key is <ul><div></div><li></ul>
331. # [10:33] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
332. # [10:33] <Hixie> jesus some of these RFCs have stupidly long names
333. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't recall, but anyway, the divs become a bit different and the div that has the background ends up having the content overflow instead of having another div in it that'd stretch the bg div
334. # [10:34] * zcorpan sees a <center> in <ul>
335. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: anyway, I think we shouldn't change the spec or implementations
336. # [10:34] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@75-59-236-53.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
337. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I think we should declare victory
338. # [10:34] <zcorpan> yep, was just curious :)
339. # [10:36] <hsivonen> oh, great. Firefox, Chrome and IE can't agree on the tab size in tooltips
340. # [10:36] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
341. # [10:37] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
342. # [10:38] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@t049235.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
343. # [10:40] <hsivonen> I wonder why IE9 RC pops up a balloon to call my attention to the compat view button when loading http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/title-attribute.html
344. # [10:40] <hsivonen> or maybe it pops the balloon when the user repeatedly reloads the page
345. # [10:41] <Hixie> my quest to write the spec with the most references ever continues unabated
346. # [10:42] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@lag75-1-78-192-241-87.fbxo.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
347. # [10:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think it's the latter. at least i remember ie8 doing that when reloading some random page
348. # [10:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah. looks like it's the reload
349. # [10:45] * Joins: tbassetto (~tbassetto@92.103.127.226)
350. # [10:47] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@75-59-236-53.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
351. # [10:47] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
352. # [10:48] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
353. # [10:48] <annevk> Hixie, is there some WIP to view?
354. # [10:50] <Hixie> yeah, reload
355. # [10:50] <Hixie> search for PeerConnection
356. # [10:50] <Hixie> that whole section is new
357. # [10:50] <Hixie> i'm fixing markup errors
358. # [10:50] <Hixie> so don't worry if the whole page is blue or whatever
359. # [10:52] <annevk> :)
360. # [10:55] * Joins: hasather (~davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com)
361. # [10:58] <annevk> Hixie, instead of sendText shouldn't this follow XHR / postMessage() more?
362. # [10:58] <Hixie> good idea
363. # [11:01] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc11-seac19-2-0-cust116.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
364. # [11:09] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk)
365. # [11:10] <Hixie> annevk: i changed sendText to postMessage, i hope that's what you meant!
366. # [11:13] <annevk> either postMessage or just send()
367. # [11:13] <annevk> something that can be overloaded later
368. # [11:13] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net)
369. # [11:13] <annevk> with ArrayBuffer and other things we want to tranmist
370. # [11:13] <jgraham> Without looking, son't we want to reuse the terminology from websockets?
371. # [11:13] <jgraham> *don't
372. # [11:14] <Hixie> which terminology?
373. # [11:14] <annevk> yeah, I sort of expected Hixie to pick send()
374. # [11:14] <Hixie> send() is fine too
375. # [11:14] <jgraham> The function names
376. # [11:14] <Hixie> sure
377. # [11:15] <Hixie> so i have idl checking in my pipeline
378. # [11:16] <Hixie> unfortunately the error messages refer to the number of the idl block
379. # [11:16] <Hixie> i've no idea which idl block is numbered what
380. # [11:16] <Hixie> apparently idl block 115 or so has a new error
381. # [11:16] <Hixie> something about DOMString vs (
382. # [11:16] <Hixie> so if anyone sees the mistake later, let me knot
383. # [11:16] <Hixie> know
384. # [11:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-47-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
385. # [11:18] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
386. # [11:18] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-47-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
387. # [11:19] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
388. # [11:21] <annevk> so this also nukes device
389. # [11:21] <annevk> wonder what Andrei will say to that
390. # [11:21] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
391. # [11:22] <Hixie> which andrei?
392. # [11:22] <Hixie> andrei p?
393. # [11:22] <annevk> yeah
394. # [11:22] <Hixie> i think he'll be fine with it
395. # [11:22] * Quits: KDN (~KDN@202.171.164.210) (Quit: KDN)
396. # [11:22] <Hixie> there was a lot of confusion amongst webkit guys about what exactly <device> should do
397. # [11:23] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
398. # [11:23] <annevk> hmm yeah, reading the message again he seems less displeased with that suggestion than I remembered
399. # [11:23] <annevk> the main question is UI
400. # [11:25] <Hixie> ok this is committed
401. # [11:25] <jgraham> Hixie: On an entirely different topic, DOMTokenList specifies that you get null for .index(n) with n>=.length But WebIDL specifies that, at least for index properties you throw TypeError for out of range
402. # [11:25] <jgraham> Is it intentional that there is a difference?
403. # [11:25] <Hixie> i doubt it
404. # [11:25] <jgraham> Is it even allowed by WebIDL?
405. # [11:25] <Hixie> dunno
406. # [11:25] <Hixie> file a bug or send mail :-)
407. # [11:25] <Hixie> i'm hours late for bed
408. # [11:26] * jgraham can't see anything that would prevent it right now, but…
409. # [11:26] <Hixie> wanted to get this peer-to-peer thing done
410. # [11:26] <Hixie> nn :-)
411. # [11:26] <jgraham> Hixie: Fair enough :)
412. # [11:26] <jgraham> Sleep wel
413. # [11:26] <jgraham> l
414. # [11:26] <Hixie> ta :-)
415. # [11:26] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
416. # [11:29] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d681.pool.mediaWays.net)
417. # [11:35] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
418. # [11:35] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYMCDIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
419. # [11:35] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
420. # [11:39] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
421. # [11:39] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
422. # [11:39] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
423. # [11:40] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
424. # [11:53] <jgraham> So what obvious thing am a I missing? Where is it specified that \n -> \r\n for form submission?
425. # [11:55] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
426. # [11:56] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@86.188.197.189)
427. # [11:56] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
428. # [11:58] <jgraham> Ah, only for type=hidden
429. # [11:58] <jgraham> Perhaps
430. # [11:59] <jgraham> No, <textarea? also
431. # [11:59] <jgraham> s/?/>/
432. # [12:03] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524B818E.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
433. # [12:03] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
434. # [12:06] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
435. # [12:12] <richt> FYI http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2011/03/14/web-meet-device
436. # [12:12] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
437. # [12:12] <richt> I'll caveat that with the fact we will update the APIs with Hixie's latest changes from here on out :)
438. # [12:13] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
439. # [12:16] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YYMCDIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
440. # [12:16] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
441. # [12:17] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Read error: Operation timed out)
442. # [12:27] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me)
443. # [12:27] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
444. # [12:28] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
445. # [12:29] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
446. # [12:29] <hsivonen> is this a fork? http://libav.org/
447. # [12:29] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
448. # [12:30] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
449. # [12:31] <annevk> the event should probably be named message rather than text
450. # [12:31] <annevk> like WebSockets
451. # [12:31] <annevk> oh well, details
452. # [12:32] <annevk> hsivonen, "We, as a group of FFmpeg developers, have decided to continue developing FFmpeg under the name Libav. All existing infrastructure will be transferred to the libav.org domain."
453. # [12:32] <hsivonen> annevk: but why? and why doesn't the same message appear on ffmpeg.org?
454. # [12:35] <annevk> no idea
455. # [12:39] <hsivonen> I can guess three possible explanations: 1) fork 2) MPEG complaining about name 3) rebranding is more general than just MPEG
456. # [12:47] * Quits: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au) (Remote host closed the connection)
457. # [12:49] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
458. # [12:51] <Philip`> hsivonen: Sounds like a reaction to http://lwn.net/Articles/423702/
459. # [12:51] <Philip`> http://lists.mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2011-March/109202.html
460. # [12:54] <Philip`> http://avcodec.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-private/2011-March/thread.html also somewhat relevant
461. # [12:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
462. # [12:56] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
463. # [12:58] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
464. # [12:59] <Philip`> (Sounds kind of like there was a fork due to the normal reasons (personality clashes and disagreements over development practices), but the forkers took control of the FFmpeg name, which the other people didn't like, so the other people started their own fork called libav, or something like that)
465. # [13:00] * Joins: svl (~me@190-82-28-34.adsl.tie.cl)
466. # [13:01] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@guest.opera.com)
467. # [13:01] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
468. # [13:02] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
469. # [13:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. too much email for me to have a clear understanding of what happened and why
470. # [13:04] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
471. # [13:04] <hsivonen> I wonder if someone is chronicling open source fork history with reasonably unbiased recounts of what happened in each case
472. # [13:10] <Philip`> Unbiased accounts might not help understanding the reason much, since the reason usually seems to be people's differing biases
473. # [13:10] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
474. # [13:11] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
475. # [13:11] <Philip`> The most useful thing you can get is a full collection of everyone's biases, since then the reader can recognise the conflict
476. # [13:11] <jgraham> Philip`: Presumably one can objectively document a bias without having to share it
477. # [13:11] * Joins: jomn (~jomn@c80-216-13-27.bredband.comhem.se)
478. # [13:12] <jgraham> Insofar as one can objectively document anything
479. # [13:14] * Quits: jomn (~jomn@c80-216-13-27.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
480. # [13:14] * Joins: Ankheg1 (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru)
481. # [13:15] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
482. # [13:15] * Quits: Ankheg (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
483. # [13:16] * Joins: davidb (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762142.dsl.bell.ca)
484. # [13:16] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@guest.opera.com)
485. # [13:16] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me)
486. # [13:19] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
487. # [13:19] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
488. # [13:20] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762142.dsl.bell.ca) (Client Quit)
489. # [13:33] <Lachy> Hixie, in the new getUserMedia() method, the description says options is comma separated, but the algorithm says to split on spaces.
490. # [13:37] * Quits: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d681.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
491. # [13:39] <hsivonen> Speaking of forks, who is using XFree86 still?
492. # [13:43] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
493. # [13:44] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
494. # [13:44] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi)
495. # [13:46] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y227145.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
496. # [13:47] <smaug____> has <device> been removed from HTML spec?
497. # [13:47] <smaug____> it is mentioned in Abstract, but I can't seem to find it elsewhere
498. # [13:49] <jgraham> smaug____: Yes
499. # [13:50] <smaug____> jgraham: I was just wondering the example http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2011/03/14/web-meet-device (I think the example shows that the API is rather strange)
500. # [13:51] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@7.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com)
501. # [13:51] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
502. # [13:51] <jgraham> smaug____: <device> was removed this morning
503. # [13:51] <smaug____> aha, good
504. # [13:51] <smaug____> I wonder what the reasoning was
505. # [13:52] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
506. # [13:56] <smaug____> annevk: are you on vacation already?
507. # [13:58] <erlehmann> oh noes
508. # [14:04] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226)
509. # [14:04] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
510. # [14:04] * Quits: svl (~me@190-82-28-34.adsl.tie.cl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
511. # [14:05] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
512. # [14:05] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
513. # [14:07] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
514. # [14:11] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@t049235.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
515. # [14:15] <Lachy> smaug____, there are a few reasons why an API is better than the device element
516. # [14:16] <smaug____> sure. I never liked <device>, though I didn't have time to review it properly
517. # [14:16] <foolip> Hixie, are you aware that the video conferencing section ended up in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dnd.html#video-conferencing-and-peer-to-peer-communication ?
518. # [14:17] <foolip> seems rather unrelated to drag and drop :)
519. # [14:18] <zcorpan> Philip`: ^
520. # [14:19] <Lachy> smaug____, firstly, the device element would require a native control to be inserted into the page so that the user can initiate access. Native controls suck for designers, since hey
521. # [14:19] <Lachy> since they're difficult to style
522. # [14:19] * Joins: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
523. # [14:19] <smaug____> Lachy: very true. Similar reasons why I don't like Google's proposals for HTML Speech
524. # [14:20] <Lachy> The API lets the author use whatever controls they like, and activiate it with a script, and then the browser can provide suitable UI in the chrome to request access, just like with geolocation
525. # [14:21] <smaug____> right
526. # [14:21] <smaug____> I wonder why the API is in HTML spec
527. # [14:21] <smaug____> sounds a lot like something which could be handled in some separate spec
528. # [14:21] <Lachy> because <device> was in the HTML spec, and no-one has yet offered to take over and write it as a separate spec
529. # [14:22] <hsivonen> smaug____: probably because it's easier to add a section to an existing document than to start a new one
530. # [14:22] * Quits: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
531. # [14:22] <jgraham> smaug____: (that type of comment is more or less pure stop energy without actually doing the seperation)
532. # [14:22] <Philip`> Hmph, Hixie keeps adding markup to the spec
533. # [14:22] <jgraham> smaug____: (not suggesting that's what you intended at all)
534. # [14:23] <Philip`> foolip: If you remind me later today or thereabouts, I can probably update the splitter
535. # [14:23] <Philip`> (else I'll probably forget)
536. # [14:24] <smaug____> jgraham: how so? I would guess there are pretty good tools to separate parts of HTML spec to separate documents automatically. Isn't that what happened to Websockets API for example
537. # [14:24] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
538. # [14:24] * Joins: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
539. # [14:24] * Quits: twisted (~twisted@205.189.73.45) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
540. # [14:25] <hsivonen> smaug____: there are tools, because people have complained in the past, but still the organization across specs isn't a substantive problem
541. # [14:25] <jgraham> smaug____: Because it is not providing any useful feedback on the spec but requiring other people to expend effort to make, in the best case, meaningless changes
542. # [14:26] <jgraham> when that effort could be better spent on actually improving the spec
543. # [14:26] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
544. # [14:26] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
545. # [14:27] * smaug____ doesn't understand how trying to make things easier to read is meaningless
546. # [14:27] <smaug____> but anyway, not important enough to complain now...
547. # [14:27] <jgraham> Is it really easier? Especially if it is conveniently split into its own page in the multipage version
548. # [14:28] <jgraham> I find it harder because I have to hunt out the particular document that the thing I'm interested in is living in
549. # [14:28] <jgraham> rather than just searching the TOC
550. # [14:28] <foolip> Philip`, how much later should I remind you?
551. # [14:29] <smaug____> it is true that readability of the spec could perhaps be improved also in some other ways
552. # [14:29] <jgraham> (in the worst case, it is used as a tactic by people who don't like a spec to try and bury it; c.f. microdata)
553. # [14:31] <smaug____> But anyhow, I'm concerned about the readability of the spec. It needs to reviewed more often and more thoroughly
554. # [14:31] <hsivonen> smaug____: I like to be able to use in-browser search over a larger body of text
555. # [14:32] <Lachy> smaug____, splitting specs sucks so much, and that's why I always look at complete.html because it has everything in it
556. # [14:32] <hsivonen> smaug____: it annoys me greatly that the single-page version of SVG 1.1 latest ed. is hidden and that the latest EDs of CSS are sprinkled across documents
557. # [14:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: also, a part of the pushback you are seeing is probably due to connotations from microdata etc. at the HTML WG
558. # [14:33] <Philip`> foolip: Perhaps in between maybe 5 and 10 hours
559. # [14:34] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
560. # [14:36] <Lachy> Is Interface GeneratedStream supposed to inherit from Stream? The IDL doesn't show that, but the prose indicates that might be the case
561. # [14:36] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
562. # [14:36] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
563. # [14:37] <zcorpan> Lachy: my thought too
564. # [14:37] <zcorpan> Lachy: second thought was that if that is the case, it'd be nicer to have all constants on Stream
565. # [14:37] <Lachy> zcorpan, yeah, was just thinking that too
566. # [14:41] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
567. # [14:41] * Parts: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
568. # [14:42] * Quits: pesla_ (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
569. # [14:42] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
570. # [14:42] <zcorpan> getRecordedData should probably have void return value
571. # [14:43] * Joins: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
572. # [14:43] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
573. # [14:47] * Joins: dhx1 (~anonymous@60-242-108-164.static.tpgi.com.au)
574. # [14:47] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
575. # [14:48] <Lachy> why was the readystatechange event added to this, since there is also separate events for play, paused and ended?
576. # [14:49] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Client Quit)
577. # [14:50] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
578. # [14:54] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y227145.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: jdaggett)
579. # [14:54] * Joins: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
580. # [15:06] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
581. # [15:07] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
582. # [15:07] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
583. # [15:11] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-146f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
584. # [15:12] * Quits: lrvick (~lrvick@66.96.251.117) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
585. # [15:13] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
586. # [15:14] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
587. # [15:14] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
588. # [15:15] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237)
589. # [15:16] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
590. # [15:18] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@108-78-249-73.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
591. # [15:18] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me)
592. # [15:20] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@195.130.156.13) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
593. # [15:36] <annevk> smaug____, still here
594. # [15:36] <annevk> somewhat
595. # [15:36] <zcorpan> why is it ontext rather than onmessage?
596. # [15:36] <smaug____> I wonder what I was going to ask...
597. # [15:38] <annevk> zcorpan, it was sendText() or some such before as well
598. # [15:38] <annevk> zcorpan, I hope Hixie just forgot to fix it
599. # [15:39] <annevk> well, that's what I expect
600. # [15:39] <zcorpan> ok
601. # [15:39] <hsivonen> hmm. Microsoft PR links to a review at Softpedia
602. # [15:40] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
603. # [15:41] * Joins: badmin (~quassel@ip-109-91-39-31.unitymediagroup.de)
604. # [15:41] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
605. # [15:41] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
606. # [15:42] * Quits: Ankheg1 (~Ankheg@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
607. # [15:42] * badmin is now known as Guest64049
608. # [15:42] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@cmalu.zahe.me) (Quit: Leaving.)
609. # [15:43] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
610. # [15:44] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
611. # [15:44] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
612. # [15:44] * Joins: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237)
613. # [15:45] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
614. # [15:45] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-18f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
615. # [15:47] * Joins: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com)
616. # [15:47] * Quits: wakaba (~wakaba@8.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
617. # [15:47] <zcorpan> "as i recently realised, there is not (to my knowledge) a single MUST requirement on browsers to implement the features of HTML5 in an accessible, interoperable way." http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-layout-table
618. # [15:48] * Quits: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
619. # [15:49] * Joins: wakaba (~wakaba@198.22.102.121.dy.bbexcite.jp)
620. # [15:50] <hsivonen> zcorpan: curiously, the HTML5 spec requires data mining tools to treat elements according to their semantics, but there's no requirement (that I could find) for accessibility API exposure to do the same
621. # [15:50] * Joins: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
622. # [15:51] * jgraham is just getting the blog timing out
623. # [15:51] * Joins: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125)
624. # [15:51] <zcorpan> thus, it's proof that Hixie cares more about data mining tools than about accessibility
625. # [15:51] <hsivonen> I wonder if it's too controversial to highlight quirky and almost standards doctypes as errors in View Source
626. # [15:51] <jgraham> Quirky should be
627. # [15:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: highligthed or controversial? :-)
628. # [15:52] * Joins: lrvick (~lrvick@66.96.251.117)
629. # [15:52] <jgraham> heh
630. # [15:52] <jgraham> Highlighted
631. # [15:52] <hsivonen> it would seem inconsistent not to highlight Almost Standards, too, in that case
632. # [15:53] <jgraham> Yeah, I would highlight both
633. # [15:53] * Quits: bentruyman (~bentruyma@24-148-24-69.c3-0.prs-ubr2.chi-prs.il.cable.rcn.com) (Quit: bentruyman)
634. # [15:53] * Quits: chriseppstein (~chris@108-78-249-73.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: chriseppstein)
635. # [15:53] <hsivonen> at present, I'm not highlighting tree builder errors detected on EOF, because I don't know what I'd highlight
636. # [15:54] <hsivonen> since there's no visible EOF character to highlight
637. # [15:54] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
638. # [15:54] <annevk> hmm
639. # [15:54] <annevk> even http://dreamhoststatus.com/ is down?!
640. # [15:54] * Guest64049 is now known as admiralf
641. # [15:54] <zewt> dreamhoststatusstatus.com
642. # [15:55] <hsivonen> zewt: I had to check if that one really existed
643. # [15:55] <zewt> dreamhoststatus^N.com
644. # [15:56] <annevk> "Update 7:11 am: We are currently operating on half of a core, so partial connectivity has been restored. We are working to resolve an issue with one of the cisco core supervisors not maintaining it’s configuration. Systems that are affected by this are our servers located at our downtown Los Angels, CA location (including the panel)– servers at our LAX data center are not affected by this outage."
645. # [15:56] <hsivonen> whoa. looks like Hixie has allowed mozillaquestquest.com expire
646. # [15:57] <hsivonen> (cue concern trolling about Hixie-owned domain names)
647. # [16:00] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
648. # [16:03] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
649. # [16:03] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
650. # [16:05] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
651. # [16:08] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@guest.opera.com)
652. # [16:10] <Lachy> Apparently Dreamhost is having network issues. Even Dreamhost Status is offline and I can't get my email :-(
653. # [16:10] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
654. # [16:11] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (~eric_carl@2620:0:1b00:1191:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e)
655. # [16:12] <hsivonen> I have a hard time understanding Microsoft's update categories. Are all "important" updates eligible for autoinstall?
656. # [16:12] <hsivonen> If yes, why do I see unchecked-by-default "Important" updates in Windows Update?
657. # [16:14] * eighty4_ is now known as eighty4
658. # [16:14] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@li150-164.members.linode.com) (Changing host)
659. # [16:14] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4)
660. # [16:34] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
661. # [16:34] * Quits: Bass10 (Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
662. # [16:35] <annevk> dammit dreamhost
663. # [16:37] <zewt> heh dreamhost is pretty much down at the bottom of the bargain bin of hosting
664. # [16:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: What would it mean for an accessibility API to treat an element according to its semantics?
665. # [16:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: that a <button> element is exposed as a button--not, for example, as a scrollbar
666. # [16:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: Isn't that defined on a per element basis?
667. # [16:41] <jgraham> using aria as an intermediate layer or something?
668. # [16:42] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
669. # [16:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: only for stuff that's representable as ARIA, right? And is there a req to support ARIA?
670. # [16:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's quite possible that the req is there but I just didn't find it
671. # [16:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
672. # [16:42] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/content-models.html#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-(aria)
673. # [16:42] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
674. # [16:42] <jgraham> "User agents are required to implement ARIA semantics on all HTML elements, as defined in the ARIA specifications"
675. # [16:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh. OK.
676. # [16:45] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@75-59-236-53.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
677. # [16:46] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@86.188.197.189)
678. # [16:50] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
679. # [16:50] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-122-8.dynamic.hinet.net)
680. # [16:50] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-122-8.dynamic.hinet.net) (Excess Flood)
681. # [16:55] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-122-8.dynamic.hinet.net)
682. # [17:00] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
683. # [17:00] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
684. # [17:04] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
685. # [17:06] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@77.222.73.150) (Quit: Disconnected...)
686. # [17:10] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
687. # [17:25] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.86.140)
688. # [17:26] * Joins: Martijnc_ (~Martijnc@91.176.86.140)
689. # [17:26] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.86.140) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
690. # [17:26] * Martijnc_ is now known as Martijnc
691. # [17:32] * Joins: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk)
692. # [17:36] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
693. # [17:37] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Nice Scotty, now beam my clothes up too!)
694. # [17:40] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
695. # [17:41] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
696. # [17:48] * Joins: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
697. # [17:49] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
698. # [17:50] * Quits: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
699. # [17:52] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
700. # [17:52] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@t049235.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) (Quit: Leaving.)
701. # [17:56] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
702. # [17:57] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
703. # [17:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@guest.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
704. # [18:00] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
705. # [18:05] <Hixie> richt: d'oh, that was some poor timing we did there :-)
706. # [18:16] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
707. # [18:18] * Joins: Ankheg (~Ankheg@94.158.192.25)
708. # [18:19] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.94.201)
709. # [18:23] * Joins: dave_levin_ (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73)
710. # [18:23] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
711. # [18:25] * Parts: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
712. # [18:25] * Joins: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
713. # [18:33] * Quits: jer|afk (~jernoble@2620:0:1b00:1191:b84f:eb10:16fa:24c2) (Quit: jer|afk)
714. # [18:37] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-124-18f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
715. # [18:42] * Quits: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
716. # [18:50] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@86.188.197.189) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
717. # [18:59] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
718. # [19:03] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: brb)
719. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it's kind of a pain that the spec doesn't define things like phrasing vs. flow content for obsolete elements. In execCommand(), I need a category of "things that are safe to put in inlines", meaning in practice that if you put them in a <span> it will serialize safely to text/html.
720. # [19:06] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
721. # [19:06] <Hixie> i can add something like that if you want
722. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> E.g., if you have <p><font color=red>Foo</font> bar</p>, and the user bolds the whole paragraph, I want to be able to say you can do <p><b><font color=red>Foo</font> bar</b></p>.
723. # [19:06] <Hixie> file a bug with the list of elements you want defined and the name of the term you want it defined as
724. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> Okay, will do.
725. # [19:09] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
726. # [19:10] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10)
727. # [19:10] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc11-seac19-2-0-cust116.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
728. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Wait, can you put stuff like <p> inside a <b> in text/html?
729. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> It looks like you can.
730. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> So it's just invalid?
731. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Maybe this isn't needed, in that case.
732. # [19:12] <Ms2ger> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1138169545&count=1
733. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> So it will work fine as long as they're nested properly?
734. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> Why is it even invalid, in that case?
735. # [19:15] <Hixie> it's more often an indication of a mistake than intentional
736. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> Really? How so?
737. # [19:19] <Hixie> <p><b>.... <p><b>... <p><b>...
738. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Oh.
739. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
740. # [19:19] <Hixie> there are very few times you ever need to actually nest paragraphs
741. # [19:19] <Ms2ger> <p><span><ul>
742. # [19:19] <Hixie> arguably there are no times because it's meaningless, though in practice there are times where it's not completely meaningless
743. # [19:19] * Ms2ger still wishes that happened
744. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Oh, so in that case it will actually nest the paragraphs? Yeah, I can see why you'd want to avoid that, then.
745. # [19:20] <Hixie> it'll nest the <p>s in the case above, yeah
746. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Although why can't you make the paragraph nesting invalid, while still allowing <b><p>Foo <p>Bar</b>?
747. # [19:20] <Hixie> you can also nest paragraphs with just one <p>, as in "foo bar<b>baz <p>foo bar"
748. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> If you close your <b> then it's not relevant, though, is it?
749. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> So just make the lack of closing tag the error.
750. # [19:21] <Hixie> it turns out the syntax gets really unintuitive if you allow <p> inside things like <b>
751. # [19:21] <Hixie> we could do it
752. # [19:21] <Hixie> but i don't think people would thank us on the long run
753. # [19:21] <Hixie> it'd be a different matter if </p> wasn't optional
754. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
755. # [19:21] <Hixie> also, semantically given our definitions of the various phrasing elements, there's very few cases where it makes sense
756. # [19:22] <Hixie> (for <i> there's a better argument, admittedly)
757. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> How about for things like <ol>, where the ending tag isn't optional anyway?
758. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> There are cases where you want to <strong> or <small> multiple paragraphs in a row, for example.
759. # [19:22] <Hixie> yeah, there are cases where it makes sense
760. # [19:23] <Hixie> the problem is that it interacts poorly with previous paragraphs, even in the <ol> case
761. # [19:23] <Hixie> e.g. <small><ol>...</ol></small> should be allowed
762. # [19:23] <Hixie> but <p>... <small><ol>...</ol></small> doesn't do what it looks like
763. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Ah.
764. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Depends on what it looks like to you, I guess :)
765. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> That's an issue, yeah.
766. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
767. # [19:24] <Hixie> for a while we had the spec allow nesting <ol>s inside <p>s
768. # [19:24] <Hixie> primarily for xhtml
769. # [19:24] <Ms2ger> Hmm, you're right
770. # [19:24] <Hixie> we even for a while had the <span> thing ms2ger described above
771. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> But if it's invalid anyway, I'm not going to worry, I'll just allow stuff like <b><listing>foo</listing></b> or whatever to happen in the odd case you have such an element.
772. # [19:24] <Hixie> but it doesn't really work sadly
773. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> I mean, given that it parses okay when you serialize the DOM.
774. # [19:24] <AryehGregor> I assumed it didn't parse right.
775. # [19:25] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah for execCommand() i think the guideline to use is "don't make a conforming document non-conforming"
776. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Hixie, in practice it looks like there has to be some mode that can make the document non-conforming, because at least e-mail clients seem to need to use <font> if they want to be understood by, e.g., Blackberry.
777. # [19:25] <Hixie> AryehGregor: when you start with a non-conforming document, it doesn't really matter critically what happens
778. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> The HTML/CSS engines in some common e-mail clients appear to be terrible.
779. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> They don't appear to be. They are.
780. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> But I'll see if we can get away with making that a non-default mode.
781. # [19:26] * TabAtkins shudders at the memories.
782. # [19:26] <Hixie> yeah the e-mail use case might need a different mode
783. # [19:26] <Hixie> but in that mode just pretend <font> is conforming and my statement still holds :-)
784. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> I don't understand how people ever did table-based layouts. I did two complex emails using them, and it was the worst coding experience of my life.
785. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> They were the only thing that worked.
786. # [19:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: indeed
787. # [19:27] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:f8fb:8b0c:c662:dd76)
788. # [19:27] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@2620:0:1b00:1191:f8fb:8b0c:c662:dd76) (Changing host)
789. # [19:27] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
790. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Argh, can I please have XML5 SVG already? Quoting attribute values is so annoying. >_<
791. # [19:32] <AryehGregor> Serve as text/html.
792. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> That doesn't let me use it as an image.
793. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> It should.
794. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> File bugs.
795. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> :)
796. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> Problem is that we probably don't want to allow HTML as an image in general.
797. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> We do a lot of (non-interoperable) hacks to make SVG less objectionable as an embedded image.
798. # [19:34] <zewt> AryehGregor: personally I'd be happy with email clients universally refusing to apply fonts in emails. heh
799. # [19:34] <zewt> it boggles the mind that gmail doesn't have an option to ignore fonts in html mail
800. # [19:35] <Ms2ger> zewt++
801. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Myself, I'd be even happier without HTML email
802. # [19:37] <zewt> certain limited uses are okay, but I decide what font and color I read mail in, not the other guy
803. # [19:39] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10) (Quit: brb)
804. # [19:39] * Quits: tbassetto (~tbassetto@92.103.127.226) (Quit: tbassetto)
805. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Particularly, most people that set the font color of their emails don't follow the basic accessibility guidelines of also setting the background-color, often rendering it unreadable for me.
806. # [19:41] * Joins: JoePeck (~JoePeck@2620:0:1b00:1f08:fa1e:dfff:fed9:b9a)
807. # [19:44] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
808. # [19:51] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com)
809. # [19:51] * Quits: webr3 (~nathan@host86-142-128-126.range86-142.btcentralplus.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
810. # [19:51] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
811. # [19:52] * Joins: webr3 (~nathan@host86-142-128-126.range86-142.btcentralplus.com)
812. # [19:52] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
813. # [19:53] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
814. # [19:53] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
815. # [19:54] * Quits: [tm] (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
816. # [19:54] * Quits: hendry (~hendry@webconverger.org) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
817. # [19:54] * Joins: hendry (~hendry@webconverger.org)
818. # [19:55] * Joins: [tm] (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net)
819. # [19:55] * Quits: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
820. # [19:55] * Joins: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@fluffles.two-pebbles.com)
821. # [19:55] * Quits: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@fluffles.two-pebbles.com) (Changing host)
822. # [19:55] * Joins: fuzzyone (~fuzzyone@vaserv/clients/fuzzyone)
823. # [20:05] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.15/20110308080941])
824. # [20:13] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
825. # [20:13] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
826. # [20:14] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
827. # [20:18] * Quits: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
828. # [20:23] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-nensmwsadzaqooii)
829. # [20:35] * Joins: RobinL (~robin@cpe-075-177-178-108.nc.res.rr.com)
830. # [20:35] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@20.74.9.46.customer.cdi.no)
831. # [20:36] * Parts: RobinL (~robin@cpe-075-177-178-108.nc.res.rr.com)
832. # [20:37] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
833. # [20:42] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-pribrasgw1-ff17c300-80.dhcp.inet.fi)
834. # [20:43] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:222:68ff:fe15:af5c)
835. # [20:45] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: boaz)
836. # [20:45] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
837. # [20:46] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
838. # [20:52] * Joins: jamesr (~jamesr@216.239.45.19)
839. # [20:53] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.86.140) (Quit: Martijnc)
840. # [20:54] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-nensmwsadzaqooii) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
841. # [20:57] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@71-32-92-110.tukw.qwest.net)
842. # [21:02] <annevk> Hixie, "Create an event that uses the MessageEvent interface, with the name text" should be named message just like Web Sockets
843. # [21:02] * Disconnected
844. # [21:03] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
845. # [21:03] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
846. # [21:03] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
847. # [21:03] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
848. # [21:07] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@75-59-236-53.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: mdelaney)
849. # [21:09] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
850. # [21:18] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-fnhkxtsbhofzdypi)
851. # [21:24] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-253-99.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
852. # [21:27] * Parts: miketaylr (~miket@206.217.92.186)
853. # [21:30] * Joins: foolip_ (~foolip@h242n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com)
854. # [21:31] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@50.58.5.50)
855. # [21:32] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@209.117.47.253)
856. # [21:33] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-122-8.dynamic.hinet.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
857. # [21:37] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-rcebnglnyikcwrkj)
858. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> Has anyone ever found that sometimes WebKit's Web Inspector inconsistently refuses to let you set a breakpoint at some line on a script, sometimes until you reload the page and sometimes until you restart?
859. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> I've had that lately with Chrome dev, and it's really really annoying.
860. # [21:40] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-123-125.dynamic.hinet.net)
861. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Clicking on a line, or picking "Add breakpoint" from the context menu, just does nothing.
862. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, Firebug routinely just claims there are no scripts on the page.
863. # [21:42] <Ms2ger> I think that happened to me when going back/forward in history
864. # [21:42] <zewt> i gave up on firebug long ago; always made firefox unusably flaky
865. # [21:42] <zewt> even when not using it
866. # [21:43] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@209.117.47.253) (Quit: boaz)
867. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> I've also found that WebKit sometimes doesn't update the Elements view in Web Inspector properly until you close and reopen it.
868. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> It's really incredibly annoying.
869. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> But I don't have a reduced test-case or anything, it's unreliable.
870. # [21:48] * jgraham finds that kind of problem all the time with all page inspectors
871. # [21:48] <jgraham> But yeah, the bugs all seem to be stateful and hard to reproduce on demand
872. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> I didn't try at all to reproduce it, admittedly.
873. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> I feel like it didn't used to happen, with Web Inspector.
874. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> (dunno about Firebug)
875. # [21:53] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@53516E0C.cm-6-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
876. # [21:54] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Going!)
877. # [21:56] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@2a01:e34:ec0f:1570:daa2:5eff:fe97:85ed)
878. # [21:59] * Joins: f1lt3r_bocoup (~f1lt3r@75-150-66-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
879. # [22:00] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-169-147-115.dyn.iinet.net.au)
880. # [22:02] * Parts: nimbupani (~Adium@71-32-92-110.tukw.qwest.net)
881. # [22:02] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@71-32-92-110.tukw.qwest.net)
882. # [22:08] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
883. # [22:08] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
884. # [22:08] * Quits: jiesun_ (~jiesun@nat/google/x-qemnqpotvngpaeyg) (Remote host closed the connection)
885. # [22:11] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
886. # [22:15] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
887. # [22:15] * Joins: aho (~nya@fuld-4d00d681.pool.mediaWays.net)
888. # [22:22] * Quits: Moo-- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
889. # [22:22] * Joins: moo-_- (~quassel@herd37.twinapex.fi)
890. # [22:27] * Joins: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2)
891. # [22:31] * Joins: davidb_ (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762142.dsl.bell.ca)
892. # [22:33] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y227145.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
893. # [22:34] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@50.58.5.50) (Quit: adactio)
894. # [22:37] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
895. # [22:37] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@bas4-kitchener06-1128762142.dsl.bell.ca) (Quit: davidb_)
896. # [22:44] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: abarth)
897. # [22:44] * Joins: abarth (~abarth@173-164-128-209-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
898. # [22:46] * Joins: roc_ (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
899. # [22:46] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@12.130.118.16)
900. # [22:46] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
901. # [22:46] * roc_ is now known as roc
902. # [22:51] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GZKCCCII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
903. # [22:53] * Quits: msucan (~robod@89.123.152.38) (Quit: .)
904. # [22:54] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-rcebnglnyikcwrkj) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
905. # [22:56] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
906. # [22:57] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
907. # [23:01] * Joins: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125)
908. # [23:04] * Quits: foolip_ (~foolip@h242n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
909. # [23:07] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@12.130.118.16) (Quit: boaz)
910. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, did I ever ask you to take my tests for createContextualFragment()?
911. # [23:07] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@71-32-92-110.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
912. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, they're here: http://aryeh.name/spec/dom-parsing-and-serialization/test/
913. # [23:07] <Ms2ger> Ooh, nice
914. # [23:09] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
915. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Oh, did you update Anolis, btw?
916. # [23:12] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GZKCCCII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
917. # [23:14] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
918. # [23:14] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524B818E.cm-4-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
919. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> When?
920. # [23:16] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
921. # [23:18] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@72.29.214.202)
922. # [23:22] <Ms2ger> After --dump-xrefs broke :)
923. # [23:22] * Joins: doublec (~chris@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
924. # [23:22] * Quits: doublec (~chris@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Changing host)
925. # [23:22] * Joins: doublec (~chris@unaffiliated/doublec)
926. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> I just stopped dumping my xrefs for editcommands. It's going to be merged into HTML5 eventually anyway, so it's not like anyone will ever want them.
927. # [23:23] <Ms2ger> That makes sense
928. # [23:25] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
929. # [23:26] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
930. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Hmm, is there an easy way to tell if I'm 32 or 64 bit on Ubuntu?
931. # [23:27] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@72.29.214.202) (Quit: adactio)
932. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, uname -a should do it.
933. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Excellent, thank you.
934. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> uname -m, more specifically.
935. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> Well, -a gave me sufficient information for me to find an appropriate-looking value.
936. # [23:28] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
937. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> I'm gonna try out Sublime Text 2 as an editor, and needed to know which build to use.
938. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Cool: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome?view=rev&revision=77860
939. # [23:30] * Quits: homata (~homata@h219-110-13-038.catv02.itscom.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
940. # [23:30] <zewt> hmm
941. # [23:31] <zewt> but that may encourage people to put site titles as prefixes, when so far people have been encouraged to make them suffixes, which is better
942. # [23:31] <zewt> eg. "text - Google Search" instead of "Google Search - text"
943. # [23:32] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
944. # [23:35] * Joins: cpearce (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
945. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Yes, the real solution is just to have people who use site name prefixes die in a fire.
946. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> But sometimes it's not practical.
947. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> E.g., consider a message board with a multipage thread, and the user is viewing the first page.
948. # [23:38] <zewt> sure, but if people see it and start using prefixes where they would have otherwise used suffixes, it's a loss
949. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Do you do "Thread title - Page 1 - Site Name" or "Page 1 - Thread title - Site Name"? Presumably the latter.
950. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Er, the former.
951. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> But then what if the user is viewing multiple pages at once?
952. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> I think people use prefixes because they didn't think about it, so I'm not too worried about that.
953. # [23:39] <zewt> personally I don't understand why vertical tabs are so poorly supported; they're a much more obvious way of listing tabs
954. # [23:39] <zewt> afaik only Opera supports it natively and Firefox with some questionably-supported extensions
955. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Why don't OSes do it?
956. # [23:40] <zewt> it's one of the main things keeping me from using Chrome
957. # [23:40] <zewt> they can
958. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it doesn't bother me.
959. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I guess they can.
960. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure Windows and GNOME do, at least.
961. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> zewt: Switch to a portrait-orientation on your monitor. Then tabs at the top make more sense.
962. # [23:40] <zewt> heh
963. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> You need a monitor large enough that the narrow side is at least 1024, though.
964. # [23:41] <zewt> i typically have 30-50 tabs open per browser window; horizontal tabs are a non-starter
965. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Ah, k. Stop doing that, then?
966. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> That was my solution.
967. # [23:41] <zewt> i like doing that; it works well for me
968. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Sure, except that it's harder to get the tabs to display right for you. ^_^
969. # [23:42] <zewt> right now I'm using one of those aforementioned extensions, but it's not ported to FF4 yet...
970. # [23:42] <gsnedders> zewt: Use Opera? :P
971. # [23:42] <zewt> i used to :)
972. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> I used to use a Firefox extension that allowed multiple rows of tabs.
973. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Worked pretty well.
974. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> There were scrollbars if it got beyond three.
975. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Tab Mix Plus, it was called.
976. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Then I realized extensions are a horrible idea and switched to Chrome.
977. # [23:43] <zewt> (using FF for the typical reason: too much stuff in extensions it has that Opera doesn't)
978. # [23:43] <zewt> i use TMP+VertTabbar
979. # [23:44] * Quits: alrra (592f527d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.47.82.125) (Quit: Page closed)
980. # [23:44] <zewt> most of the blockers for using chrome are fixed (abp, stylish, a couple other things), but the vertical tab thing is still in the way
981. # [23:45] <zewt> (also not crazy about my process list being totally filled with dozens of Chrome processes, heh)
982. # [23:47] <zewt> jesus, someone sure is dissertationing about D&D on the list, heh
983. # [23:47] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@12.14.132.2)
984. # [23:47] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@12.14.132.2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
985. # [23:48] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@12.14.132.2)
986. # [23:48] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
987. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> I really wish drap-n-drop wasn't abbreviated to D&D or DnD. That already carries strong and hard-to-overwrite connotations in my head.
988. # [23:50] <zewt> "Proposal: add dice rolling methods to the D&D API"
989. # [23:52] * Quits: adactio (~adactio@12.14.132.2) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
990. # [23:54] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@75-59-236-53.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
991. # [23:54] * Quits: admiralf (~quassel@ip-109-91-39-31.unitymediagroup.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
992. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> I kinda want to file a bug on that.
993. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Except I don't want to waste Hixie's time.
994. # [23:59] <zewt> heh
995. # Session Close: Tue Mar 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)