/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 15 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> do i abbreviate it anywhere?
  4. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> I doubt it, unfortunately.
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> problem solved!
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> My bug would be about adding dice-rolling methods.
  7. # [00:00] <Hixie> hah
  8. # [00:01] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Using a how many sided die?
  9. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Well, that's clearly a parameter to the methods.
  10. # [00:01] <zewt> NaN
  11. # [00:02] <aho> NaN NaN NaN NaN batman :v
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  14. # [00:03] <zewt> :|
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  26. # [00:35] <hober> sidedness could be a new CSS unit
  27. # [00:35] <hober> 20d
  28. # [00:35] <hober> oof, that looks like 20 old pence
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  33. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> hober: units are allowed (per the grammar) to have numbers in them, so 20d6 can be a valid CSS value, using the 'd6' unit.
  34. # [00:50] <zewt> that leads to the question of metaunits
  35. # [00:50] <zewt> eg. width: 2d6em
  36. # [00:50] <zewt> i just made myself sad
  37. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> That's calc( 2d6 * 1em )
  38. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> (Given that the dX units are subtypes of <integer>, I guess.)
  39. # [00:53] <zewt> though that raises the question of when the value is resolved; having a new width chosen during each reflow would be unpleasant
  40. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Indeed, that's a harder problem.
  41. # [00:55] * AryehGregor will be interested to see the answer to his comments here: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/03/14/internet-explorer-hidden-images-styled-with-display-none-always-have-zero-0-height.aspx
  42. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that behavior is clearly broken, as it means that <img>s which haven't yet been inserted into the document (and thus aren't participating in layout) should return 0 as well.
  43. # [00:57] <zewt> that's pretty evil
  44. # [00:57] <zewt> happen to know if it happens if the image isn't hidden, but it's in a container which is?
  45. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> If the container is display:none? Should be the same.
  46. # [00:58] <zewt> i regularly do that to preload images (without using the evil load-images-without-putting-them-in-a-document hack)
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  52. # [01:10] <zewt> gah
  53. # [01:10] <zewt> alright, can anyone give me a plausible explanation for this which has driven me insane for years: "if your download doesn't start in 15 seconds..." and a redirect to download links, instead of plain standard old download links, heh
  54. # [01:11] <zewt> so broken and it's hard to think up even an implausible explanation
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  64. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Those types of things typically use an iframe pointing to the file with appropriate headers to trigger an automatic download prompt.
  65. # [01:13] <zewt> which is the same thing you'll get with a plain download link
  66. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Not necessarily, if it's a type of file that the browser thinks it can handle itself.
  67. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Also: more branding!
  68. # [01:13] <zewt> that's what content-disposition: attachment is for (iirc)
  69. # [01:14] <zewt> and it's so broken--breaks browser copy-link, and in the case of the Firefox upgrade I just did, it happily pops up another download prompt after I restart the session (since the download page is still open)
  70. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Yup, it really shouldn't be necessary anymore.
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  94. # [02:39] <zewt> missing messages in the archive? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/029492.html should be http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg24505.html
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  101. # [02:56] <Hixie> zewt: weird
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  109. # [03:14] <zewt> looks like the list indexes are broken when the trailing slash is missing from the URL
  110. # [03:14] <zewt> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-February vs http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-February/
  111. # [03:14] <Hixie> not much i can do about it, it's a dreamhost thing
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  123. # [05:39] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  162. # [08:00] <abarth> Hixie: is there an easy what to see which rev you removed <device> in?
  163. # [08:00] <abarth> i don't see it on http://twitter.com/whatwg
  164. # [08:01] <zcorpan> it was http://html5.org/r/5945
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  166. # [08:03] <abarth> yhx
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  170. # [08:20] <zcorpan> Hixie: <p><b>.... <p><b>... <p><b>... won't nest the <p>s! don't you know the parsing algorithm by heart? :)
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  210. # [09:57] <hsivonen> I guess I should do community service and draw a flowchart now that IE9 is final...
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  219. # [10:32] <hsivonen> Am I reading the CSS 2.1 spec under /TR/ wrong or is its "Features at risk" out of sync with the actual spec requirements as far as the HTML body background rule goes?
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  221. # [10:33] <hsivonen> it says the there's the risk that the exception might be extended to XHTML, but AFAICT, it has already been extended in the spec
  222. # [10:33] <hsivonen> and implemented across the top 4 engines, too
  223. # [10:33] <zcorpan> yeah, it's out of sync
  224. # [10:33] <hsivonen> are there now any CSS differences between XML and HTML Standards Mode?
  225. # [10:33] <zcorpan> i pointed that out when the spec was changed a few years ago
  226. # [10:34] <zcorpan> i think only in Selectors case-sensitivity
  227. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks.
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  253. # [11:34] <hsivonen> Findings so far: IE9 sticks to the IE8 notion of what's quirky. Doesn't align with HTML5 and other browsers.
  254. # [11:39] <zcorpan> also for comment before doctype?
  255. # [11:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: didn't test that yet
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  258. # [11:59] * smaug____ doesn't understand how the new Stream + video is supposed to work. In what format is the Blob created from Stream? Do all the browsers need to support that?
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  267. # [12:30] <Lachy> smaug____, the spec says "Generate a file that containing data in a format supported by the user agent for use in audio and video elements."
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  269. # [12:31] <Lachy> so it seems that browsers could save the file as WebM (VP8/Vorbis) or MP4 (h.264/AAC) or whatever they choose
  270. # [12:32] <smaug____> so the whole PeerConnection would work well only it both ends support same codecs
  271. # [12:32] <Lachy> that just means that if the website wants to accept those file uploads, then the servers are going to need to have support for both formats
  272. # [12:32] <Lachy> the P2P stuff is more complicated, as you will only be able to stream between browsers that support the same formats
  273. # [12:32] <Lachy> right
  274. # [12:33] <smaug____> That is bad
  275. # [12:33] <smaug____> leaving a major point of the feature unspecified
  276. # [12:33] <Lachy> yeah, it sucks big time. We just need to make sure we can make WebM successful for that purpose
  277. # [12:33] <smaug____> (which is ofc the case with <video> too)
  278. # [12:34] <jgraham> smaug____: Yeah, it does suck. Not sure what the alternative is though :(
  279. # [12:34] <Lachy> but we haven't implemented that stuff yet. Only what we announced yesterday, which was initial support for <device> and the ability to play that in a <video> element. We should be able to change the new API easily though.
  280. # [12:35] <Lachy> I mean, change *to* the new API easily
  281. # [12:35] <smaug____> I'm not sure I like the PeerConnection anyway
  282. # [12:36] <smaug____> the whole thing reminds a lot like WebSockets (with support for Streams), but with different protocols
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  284. # [12:38] <jgraham> Isn't being like websockets a good thing?
  285. # [12:38] <jgraham> Or are you saying that we should reuse websockets?
  286. # [12:39] <smaug____> we could perhaps have just one API
  287. # [12:39] <smaug____> with support for different protocols
  288. # [12:41] <jgraham> I wonder if Hixie has looked at the design of 0mq
  289. # [12:41] <jgraham> It does multiple protocols / connection topologies with more or less a single API
  290. # [12:42] <jgraham> AFAIK
  291. # [12:42] * jgraham has never used it but has read the manual
  292. # [12:42] <jgraham> Or parts thereof
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  296. # [12:59] <smaug____> hmm, so implementation would need to encode video stream to webm and then show it in <video> ?
  297. # [12:59] <smaug____> though, perhap using the URL.createObjectURL doesn't require any encoding
  298. # [13:00] <smaug____> erm, but that is done for Stream, and Stream needs to be encoded...
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  300. # [13:03] <smaug____> Lachy: how does that work with <device>? Do you first encode the video and then decode using <video> ?
  301. # [13:05] <Lachy> there is some magic in the back end that somehow renders the video directly from the camera without encoding as webm first.
  302. # [13:06] <smaug____> actually, <device> allows that quite easily, but with Streams that is not so easy
  303. # [13:07] <Lachy> the new API will also allow that quite easily, at least as far as rendering it locally is concerned. The recording or P2P streaming features will require webm encoding though.
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  315. # [13:49] <benschwarz> Hi all
  316. # [13:51] <zcorpan> hi benschwarz
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  321. # [13:58] <benschwarz> zcorpan he did it
  322. # [13:59] <benschwarz> (your tweet)
  323. # [14:00] <zcorpan> yeah
  324. # [14:00] <zcorpan> though i guess it still has default phpbb3 styles
  325. # [14:01] <benschwarz> zcorpan: its a start
  326. # [14:01] <hsivonen> Are "Compatibility Mode Settings" gone in IE9 or do I just have trouble finding them?
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  329. # [14:15] <hsivonen> found it
  330. # [14:16] <hsivonen> required menu bar
  331. # [14:16] <hsivonen> well hidden!
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  334. # [14:32] <smaug____> does Opera implement xhr.timeout?
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  340. # [14:43] <zcorpan> smaug____: no
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  342. # [14:43] <smaug____> ok
  343. # [14:43] <smaug____> then it is still easy to change it, since no one has implemented it
  344. # [14:44] <smaug____> zcorpan: thanks
  345. # [14:45] <zcorpan> how do you want to change it?
  346. # [14:45] <smaug____> zcorpan: it should be possible to cancel the timeout
  347. # [14:45] <smaug____> and perhaps also change it after send()
  348. # [14:46] <smaug____> about to send an email about this to webapps
  349. # [14:46] <zcorpan> maybe also set in UNSENT state?
  350. # [14:47] <smaug____> why does it need to be limited at all
  351. # [14:47] <smaug____> well, at all after opened
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  416. # [16:50] <jgraham> Yay! Working group decision on ascii-ref means we get to waste even more time on arguing about the decision
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  463. # [18:07] <dylanw> I'm trying to understand why header/footer are inline and not block elements. Could someone point me in the direction of that discussion?
  464. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> There's no such distinction
  465. # [18:08] <Ms2ger> But I think you're misinterpreting something, because they are what some would call block elements
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  467. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> They're not inline, they're flow elements. The default UA stylesheet sets them to display:block.
  468. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/rendering.html#display-types
  469. # [18:09] <dylanw> FF3.6 by default has them display:inline
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  471. # [18:10] <dylanw> browser bug?
  472. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> That's because it doesn't know what the elements are. Unknown elements are display:inline by default.
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  477. # [18:12] <dylanw> So then FF3.6 doesn't actually support HTML?
  478. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> It doesn't understand several of the new HTML elements, no.
  479. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> 3.6 is relatively old at this point.
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  481. # [18:15] <dylanw> OK, I understand. I misinterpreted flow. And apparently so did the Moz crew.
  482. # [18:15] <dylanw> Thx
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  484. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> No, Moz did not misinterpret it. 3.6 doesn't implement those elements at all.
  485. # [18:16] <jgraham> dylanw: To be fair all Mozilla did wrong was to have a long release cycle
  486. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> (Most flow elements are display:block, actually.)
  487. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> (Maybe all?)
  488. # [18:17] <dylanw> anchors are listed as flow
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  490. # [18:18] <dylanw> yeah, the current flow list is a mix of classical block (div) and inline (abbr)
  491. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I'm surprised that abbr is flow. That sounds like it should be phrasing content.
  492. # [18:19] <dylanw> It's both.
  493. # [18:19] <TabAtkins> Indeed. I wonder why it's flow at all, though?
  494. # [18:19] <dylanw> It seems, and I'm just doing this prima facie
  495. # [18:19] <dylanw> that flow only means you're probably a block
  496. # [18:19] <dylanw> flow+phrasing you're probably inline
  497. # [18:20] <dylanw> though p is the obvious exception
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  499. # [18:20] <dylanw> wait, no, p isn't phrasing
  500. # [18:20] <dylanw> duh. has its own section
  501. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Ah, never mind, lots of elements are flow+phrasing.
  502. # [18:21] <dylanw> HTML standard never really specifies whether something is a "block"
  503. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Yes it does, in the rendering section.
  504. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> Which I linked. ^_^
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  506. # [18:23] <dylanw> OK, I see now
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  509. # [18:25] <dylanw> I'll just use that as a reset stylesheet
  510. # [18:26] <dylanw> thx
  511. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Nah, it's not quite good enough for a reset stylesheet, since it uses some things that aren't supported in CSS. Use html5boilerplate.com
  512. # [18:29] <dylanw> Hadn't seen Paul's stuff yet.
  513. # [18:29] <dylanw> HTML makes me feel like I'm back in 2000 again screaming at Netscape 4's DOM.
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  517. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> abbr is flow content, but can only be used where phrasing content is expected . . . so what does it mean that it's flow content?
  518. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> Oh, of course.
  519. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> It means you can do <div><abbr>Foo</abbr></div> or such, right?
  520. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> Wait, no.
  521. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> You can't.
  522. # [18:34] * AryehGregor is confused now
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  524. # [18:37] <jgraham> "Flow COntent" doesn't mean much
  525. # [18:37] <jgraham> s/O/o/
  526. # [18:38] <jgraham> Just that the element represents part of the document rather than part of the metadata, or something
  527. # [18:39] <jgraham> Not even that
  528. # [18:40] <jgraham> Just "stuff that appears in the body"
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  531. # [18:41] <jgraham> So for abbr the important requirement is that it can only be used where phrasing content is expected
  532. # [18:42] <jgraham> Hixie: You around yet?
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  553. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Wow, once you remove the filters and fonts from SVG, it's actually a pretty small and manageable spec.
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  558. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Hm, how appropriate is it to break up a table into sub-tables purely by using some rows as new headers? I want multiple related tables that all size their cells the same.
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  560. # [19:32] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: even with <use> in place?
  561. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Huh?
  562. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> Oh, SVG.
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  564. # [19:32] <TabAtkins> One sec, breaking for lunch.
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  581. # [20:08] <Hixie> jgraham: here
  582. # [20:09] <Hixie> smaug____: yes, PeerConnection would work well only it both ends support same codecs. I suppose I could put in the spec "user agents must implement the codecs that other user agents implement" but I doubt it would help...
  583. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> Hixie, Objection!
  584. # [20:10] <Hixie> to what?
  585. # [20:10] <Hixie> my being here? :-)
  586. # [20:10] <smaug____> Hixie: that would at least make it clear that PeerConnection works only in some cases
  587. # [20:10] <Ms2ger> To a requirement to implement codecs other UAs implement
  588. # [20:11] <Hixie> if the goal is to point out that PeerConnection's media streaming features are only going to interoperate between implementations that are interoperable, I think there'd be better ways to do it
  589. # [20:11] <Hixie> but it seems pretty self-evident to me
  590. # [20:11] <Ms2ger> Well, most things are only going to interoperate between implementations that are interoperable, no?
  591. # [20:11] <Hixie> precisely
  592. # [20:12] <Ms2ger> The question is how much interoperability the spec requires/can require
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  595. # [20:12] <Hixie> for codecs, currently, none, as far as i can tell
  596. # [20:13] <smaug____> Could there be some hint which codecs are supported and then the other end wouldn't even try to connect if the right codecs weren't supported?
  597. # [20:13] <Hixie> there is
  598. # [20:13] <Hixie> it uses SDP offer/answer
  599. # [20:13] <Hixie> same as SIP
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  602. # [20:14] <smaug____> but PeerConnection isn't about playing any stream
  603. # [20:14] <smaug____> One could just save the stream
  604. # [20:14] * smaug____ needs to re-read PeerConnection
  605. # [20:14] <Hixie> you're only allowed to save the stream if you can write it out in a format you support, currently
  606. # [20:15] <Hixie> (the goal is to enable video conferencing, not remote stream saving, so i think it makes sense to natively support the codec negotiation use case and probably doesn't make sense to allow arbitrary unsupported streams to be sent)
  607. # [20:20] <smaug____> Hixie: why you're allowed to save only stream you support?
  608. # [20:20] <smaug____> it would make sense to save the stream and perhaps use some other program to open it
  609. # [20:20] <Hixie> the actual requirement is that you be able to render streams you generate
  610. # [20:20] <smaug____> that way you couldn't really "stream" anything, but at least send videos
  611. # [20:20] <Hixie> so that you can always view local video
  612. # [20:21] <smaug____> sure, that is a different thing
  613. # [20:21] <smaug____> but if you get some other format from the other end
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  615. # [20:24] <Hixie> well the idea is that you can't get an unsupported stream, so... :-)
  616. # [20:24] <smaug____> :)
  617. # [20:25] <smaug____> the whole Streaming needs to be extended a bit
  618. # [20:26] <smaug____> so that sending random files becomes possible etc.
  619. # [20:26] <smaug____> I also wonder if there could be just one API for streaming-like communication, not two WebSockets and PeerConnection
  620. # [20:30] <zewt> they're different enough that trying to merge them would probably end up more complex than the sum of the two separate APIs
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  623. # [20:33] <smaug____> they are not that different
  624. # [20:33] <smaug____> though both APIs will change so we don't know what they will look like
  625. # [20:34] <zewt> maybe
  626. # [20:34] <zewt> always the tricky issue--between trying to generalize things, and overgeneralizing
  627. # [20:35] <smaug____> true
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  629. # [20:35] <Hixie> smaug____: what's the use case?
  630. # [20:36] <smaug____> atm it would be still rather easy to change both APIs since neither of them are being used
  631. # [20:36] <zewt> particularly early in design where, as you said, where it's going hasn't solidified yet
  632. # [20:36] <smaug____> Hixie: use case? to keep web platform easier for developers by not adding too many APIs
  633. # [20:36] <smaug____> note, I'm not sure whether merging the APIs would be good, but something to think about
  634. # [20:37] <Hixie> no i mean for streaming unsupported media
  635. # [20:37] <smaug____> oh
  636. # [20:37] <Hixie> i agree that we should keep the APIs consistent
  637. # [20:37] <Hixie> i've got a bit more work to do on that shortly
  638. # [20:38] <smaug____> streaming unsupported message... say, someone wants to send me some video message, and I can't use my browser to show it on live, but I could just save it and use some other tool to watch it
  639. # [20:38] <Hixie> that seems like an extremely rare case that could just as easily be supported (possibly more easily be supported) by having the file be relayed through the server
  640. # [20:39] <smaug____> true, which is a reason why I said sending files/blobs should be supports
  641. # [20:39] <smaug____> supported
  642. # [20:39] <Hixie> you're saying we _should_ support it because it's rare and not needed? i'm confused.
  643. # [20:40] <smaug____> well, it would be natural to support sending all kinds of streams
  644. # [20:41] <smaug____> but if that case can be handled by just sending blobs, that is ok too
  645. # [20:41] <Hixie> i don't understand why it's natural to want to do P2P transfer of data that needs to be transmitted reliably and for which latency is not an issue.
  646. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> I need to poke around the issue with our idea for just ripping streams off of <input type=file accept>, so we have a nice consistent API living in the DOM.
  647. # [20:41] <Hixie> if anything it seems highly _un_natural to me
  648. # [20:43] <smaug____> Hixie: well, currently sending files isn't really supported by PeerConnection
  649. # [20:43] <Hixie> right, because it's rare and unnecessary
  650. # [20:43] <smaug____> ph
  651. # [20:43] <smaug____> er
  652. # [20:43] <smaug____> oh
  653. # [20:43] <smaug____> :)
  654. # [20:43] <smaug____> Hixie: how so?
  655. # [20:43] <smaug____> is the idea to send files using some other mechanism?
  656. # [20:43] <Hixie> yeah. XHR to the server.
  657. # [20:44] <Hixie> peer-to-peer transfer is hugely complicated but has one redeeming feature: low latency.
  658. # [20:44] <smaug____> ah
  659. # [20:44] <Hixie> if you don't need low latency, then really peer-to-peer transfer is far more pain than it's worth.
  660. # [20:45] <smaug____> hmm, not sure I like that a server needs to store some huge file before someone else can download it from there
  661. # [20:45] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  662. # [20:45] <Hixie> doesn't have to be stored, it can just be relayed.
  663. # [20:46] <Hixie> (if you use websockets(
  664. # [20:46] <Hixie> ))
  665. # [20:47] <smaug____> but that causes still quite a bit network traffic to the server
  666. # [20:47] <smaug____> I wonder how skype works when sending files
  667. # [20:47] <zewt> proprietarily :)
  668. # [20:47] <zewt> (also, very poorly, in my experience)
  669. # [20:47] <Hixie> if users really transfer files to and from each other a lot, then it's a different matter
  670. # [20:48] <Hixie> but seriously, who does that anymore?
  671. # [20:48] <zewt> these days they're called "torrents"
  672. # [20:48] <zewt> things no javascript networking API is going to be thorough enough to support: torrents :)
  673. # [20:49] <zewt> (thankfully)
  674. # [20:49] <smaug____> anyone who needs to send huge audio file packages for mixing for example
  675. # [20:49] <smaug____> it is quite handy to use Skype to send a new mix of some song
  676. # [20:49] <Hixie> zewt: actually there's not really any reason you couldn't build torrents on PeerConnection as far as I can tell
  677. # [20:49] <zewt> one use case (not claiming it's a common one): web IRC clients, with DCC transfers or equivalent
  678. # [20:49] <Hixie> smaug____: you wait for the other person to be online to do that? that seems unlikely.
  679. # [20:50] <zewt> (it's common for IRC, though usually for bad reasons)
  680. # [20:50] <Philip`> People occasionally try to send me files (text files, images, etc) over MSN
  681. # [20:50] <zewt> same thing for sending files over IM clients in general, I guess
  682. # [20:50] <Philip`> (which fails because I use Bitlbee)
  683. # [20:50] <zewt> (let's say the same thing simultaneously, ready go)
  684. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, people commonly spend all day on these messaging thingies.
  685. # [20:51] <smaug____> exactly
  686. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> I just idle on MSN all the time, except that when I reboot I forget and don't restart it because I never use it.
  687. # [20:51] <Hixie> for sending small files, relaying is fine
  688. # [20:51] <zewt> i'd argue not
  689. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> But I idle on IRC all the time, which is the same sort of idea.
  690. # [20:52] <zewt> when you have millions of users on an IM network, relaying every file transfer through centralized servers is a pretty hefty server requirement when it can often be completely elimianted
  691. # [20:52] <zewt> eliminated
  692. # [20:53] <Hixie> as the only person here who actually works for a company who runs an IM network as far as I know, I'm not at all convinced. :-)
  693. # [20:53] <zewt> i'd say typical size for files over IM clients is a few megs, at least (eg. larger than text files, but typically not CD images)
  694. # [20:53] <Hixie> trying to do it peer-to-peer probably means far more support costs than it would cost just to do it via relay
  695. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie: to be fair, the chat network is well-integrated into the email client, so there's little need to directly transfer files through the chat.
  696. # [20:53] <smaug____> Hixie: does anyone actually use Google's IM ;)
  697. # [20:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: well yeah, exactly
  698. # [20:54] <zewt> Hixie: i think your company has more bandwidth available than most :)
  699. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> smaug____: ...yes? It's the only IM client I use, largely because I have gmail up at all times.
  700. # [20:54] * smaug____ has stopped using gmail web client
  701. # [20:54] <zewt> most IM clients are entirely peer-to-peer for file transfers, I *think*
  702. # [20:55] <zewt> or at the very least, most of the time with some kind of fallback (Skype feeds files through other users when it can't make a direct connection, which doesn't work very well--too slow)
  703. # [20:56] <smaug____> but usually Skype's file transfer works really well
  704. # [20:56] <Philip`> MSN apparently has 350 million active users per month (as of 2009), which is apparently about double Gmail's users
  705. # [20:56] <zewt> (not saying this is necessarily a use case that this API should try to handle--just that it is a real case)
  706. # [20:56] <Hixie> anyway. we can always add features later. we can't remove features. so let's start small.
  707. # [20:56] <zewt> (not familiar enough with the API to argue the former)
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  709. # [20:56] <Hixie> especially when it's not clear we need the features :-)
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  711. # [20:58] * smaug____ goes jogging and will think about a monster API which combines WebSockets and PeerConnection and which supports file transfer and any type of video streams :)
  712. # [21:05] <hsivonen> wasn't it part of the plan to be able to filter the bytes that come from Web Socket / Peer Connection before pushing them to a video decoder?
  713. # [21:06] <Hixie> there was a plan?
  714. # [21:06] <hsivonen> so that sites that implement their own obfuscations schemes in JS and stop whining about the lack of built-in DRM
  715. # [21:06] <Hixie> oh, no, i have no plan to support that kind of thing.
  716. # [21:06] <Hixie> the current model would support it though, fwiw. We'd just have to create a descendant of Stream that takes a Stream as input and invokes a callback regularly or some such.
  717. # [21:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: so if the current model would support it, you are planning on enabling it
  718. # [21:07] <hsivonen> even if not deliberately
  719. # [21:07] <Hixie> no
  720. # [21:07] <Hixie> the model could be extended to support it, it doesn't support it currently.
  721. # [21:08] <hsivonen> Hixie: oh
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  723. # [21:08] <Hixie> and i'm not planning on enabling it, though it could be enabled as a side-effect of the design.
  724. # [21:08] <Hixie> a hallmark of good design is that it enables all kinds of things that weren't planned for :-)
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  727. # [21:10] <tw2113> i think after this side of Pearl Jam's album Ten is done spinning, i should hit up the post office quick
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  731. # [21:16] <tw2113> oops, wrong room :D
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  760. # [22:03] <jgraham> Hixie: Would it be possible for you to look at the Mozilla history API changes soon?
  761. # [22:03] <Hixie> how soon is soon?
  762. # [22:04] <jgraham> Well the sooner the better, really
  763. # [22:04] <jgraham> But obviously it is your schedule :)
  764. # [22:04] <Hixie> i have to do something about issue 152, i'm already late with issue 147, and i have to send this feedback on p2p stuff
  765. # [22:05] <Hixie> also have to update the websocket api spec
  766. # [22:05] <Hixie> oh and issue 131 is coming up
  767. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> jgraham, obviously you should touch all older bugs :)
  768. # [22:05] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
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  770. # [22:06] <Hixie> oh man, 155 and 144 are coming up too
  771. # [22:07] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Or stop the HTMLWG chairs from cluttering up Hixie's life with fixed deadline issues that don't correspond to things I care about
  772. # [22:07] <jgraham> Not sure how to do that though
  773. # [22:07] <Hixie> well one way is to write the CCPs for those, that would really help
  774. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> That works too
  775. # [22:08] <Hixie> but i can understand if you're not inclined to do that :-)
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  777. # [22:08] <Hixie> jgraham: is there a specific thread for the history stuff already in whatwg.org/issues?
  778. # [22:08] <Hixie> or bug#?
  779. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> There's a bug
  780. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> I think you filed it
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  782. # [22:09] <Hixie> k
  783. # [22:09] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12277
  784. # [22:10] <jgraham> I think making me write CCPs for the multimedia stuff would not be a winning strategy :)
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  789. # [22:16] <Hixie> could you write one for 147?
  790. # [22:16] <Hixie> anyway, i think i should be able to get to the history stuff in the near future
  791. # [22:16] <Hixie> (as in within the next month)
  792. # [22:16] <Hixie> keep bugging me about it
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  800. # [22:22] <jgraham> Hixie: OK, thanks
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  812. # [22:39] <twisted> hi, question, in Chrome background-size works if I put it on 80%. In Firefox it doesn't. I've checked and now also have the -moz-background-size set but still nothing in Firefox...
  813. # [22:39] <twisted> what am I doing wrong?
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  819. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Does the version of FF you're testing against support background-size?
  820. # [22:55] <aho> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/css/-moz-background-size
  821. # [22:55] <aho> 3.6 requires a prefix, 4.0 doesnt anymore
  822. # [23:01] <twisted> using 4.0
  823. # [23:01] <twisted> http://twixted.hatkeintuv.de:8888/all4wheels/ that's the site in question
  824. # [23:02] <twisted> if you inspect the element #main-menu li a
  825. # [23:02] <twisted> it does show the css it should use but somehow it doesn't do anything with it
  826. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Try changing the 'background' declaration on line 7 to just background-image.
  827. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> That *shouldn't* affect anything, but FF may be buggy and reseting the -size property when you use the background shorthand.
  828. # [23:07] <twisted> it now dissapeared completely
  829. # [23:07] <twisted> even went *poof* in chrome
  830. # [23:07] <twisted> lemme check
  831. # [23:07] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@67-207-96-206.static.wiline.com) (Quit: boaz)
  832. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Oh, right. The no-repeat value there would then need to be pulled out into background-repeat.
  833. # [23:08] <twisted> whoo
  834. # [23:08] <twisted> works
  835. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> If that worked, then FF is buggy. File a bug, please?
  836. # [23:08] <twisted> firefox actually does the center center more nicely then chrome
  837. # [23:08] <twisted> uhm, where?
  838. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> bugzilla.mozilla.org
  839. # [23:09] <twisted> cool I will
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  841. # [23:11] <twisted> funny since I fixed it in Firefox now Chrome suddenly also does it properly centered
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  843. # [23:12] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|away
  844. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Same deal - background-size was being reset by the 'background' rule, because 'background' was more specific than all the background-* rules you had set generally on the links.
  845. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> Why are you doing this with backgrounds, though? Why not just use an <img> with @alt, rather than putting in real text, hiding it, then putting in an image via the background property?
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  850. # [23:24] <twisted> TabAtkins: because drupal #^@#%& sucks
  851. # [23:25] <twisted> already had to make a custom function to get an extra span
  852. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Ah, indeed it does. I recommend not using it.
  853. # [23:25] <twisted> well considering the budget for this website
  854. # [23:25] <twisted> it's probably the cheapest solution
  855. # [23:25] <twisted> joomla really sucks
  856. # [23:25] <twisted> wordpress is for blogs
  857. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> I've been reasonably happy with Django, if you really need a CMS.
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  859. # [23:30] <twisted> I unfortuanly spend waaay too much time already on Drupal atm to switch
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  865. # [23:35] <twisted> still didn't get my bugzilla email :p
  866. # [23:35] <twisted> ah spam folder lol
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  870. # [23:38] * AryehGregor suspects he could construct a minimal test-case for the really annoying Web Inspector bug in Chrome, with some effort
  871. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, I lack the time to expend effort.
  872. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> I think that when scripts are reloaded and change, it still partially caches the old version of the script sometimes, which means it only lets you set breakpoints at lines that you could have set breakpoints at in the previous version of the file.
  873. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Your margins is too narrow?
  874. # [23:43] <twisted> TabAtkins: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641977
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  876. # [23:52] * Quits: matijsb (~Adium@5353CD69.cm-6-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving.)
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  878. # Session Close: Wed Mar 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)