/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-03-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 21 00:00:01 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <ktos> his arguments are very nice but just wondering does anybody have different opinion? :)
  4. # [00:00] <ktos> http://www.xanthir.com/blog/b4580
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  7. # [00:08] <aho> like what?
  8. # [00:08] <aho> flexbox isn't the ultimate solution for doing layouts
  9. # [00:08] <aho> it's just too limited
  10. # [00:08] <aho> ascii layout... eh.. "template" gets rid of some restrictions
  11. # [00:10] <aho> the biggest problem is probably that css isn't a layout language
  12. # [00:10] <aho> however, no one really knows how a layout language should look like :>
  13. # [00:10] <ktos> aho: but if you had to choose what would you say? :)
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  15. # [00:11] <aho> didn't know it was a xor thing
  16. # [00:12] <aho> his conclusion also doesnt suggest this
  17. # [00:12] <ktos> there was yet Microsoft
  18. # [00:13] <ktos> 's draft
  19. # [00:13] <ktos> in 2007 but seems to be dead
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  21. # [00:15] <aho> i'm still not sure what you're looking for
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  23. # [00:17] <ktos> I just tried to get know the future :)
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  26. # [00:17] <ktos> but image is very distorted
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  29. # [00:18] <ktos> anyway thank you for expressions :)
  30. # [00:18] <aho> btw there is some js implementation of ascii layout
  31. # [00:19] <aho> you could give it a try if you want
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  34. # [00:20] <ktos> yes, I saw it such as flexbox js implementaions
  35. # [00:20] <ktos> I going to test it
  36. # [00:20] <aho> we'll probably end up with both things... or two things which are sorta kinda like that... or one thing which can do both things without getting too awkward
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  38. # [00:20] <ktos> author or temmplate writes:
  39. # [00:21] <ktos> This draft is related to the drafts about positoning with grid units (‘gr’) [CSS3GRID], flexible GUIs [CSS3-FLEXBOX], and tables [CSS3TBL]. The CSS Working Group is considering combining some or all of these into a single specification with all matrix-based layouts.
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  41. # [00:22] <ktos> aho: have you seen this: http://desandro.com/demo/masonry/ ?
  42. # [00:22] <aho> yes
  43. # [00:23] <aho> that float "up" kind of thing innit?
  44. # [00:23] <ktos> aho: I am wondering is it another idea or implementation of some of drafts
  45. # [00:24] <ktos> I saw some description about float reversing there but I am still unsure
  46. # [00:24] <aho> afaict something like that isn't covered by any of the drafts
  47. # [00:25] <ktos> do you think does it make any sense or better use some implementation of draft in hypothetical production use?
  48. # [00:25] <ktos> js implmentation of draft*
  49. # [00:26] <aho> you can use anything in production that works good enough on the target hardware/software
  50. # [00:26] <aho> what that exactly means is a different story :>
  51. # [00:27] <ktos> yeah, my problem is I like the best of the best solutions, no compromises, which is very rare in CS unfortunatly :)
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  53. # [00:28] <aho> web front-end stuff = compromises build on top of other compromises :>
  54. # [00:29] <ktos> right :)
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  57. # [00:36] <ktos> oh, btw just discovered Microsoft's idea resurected http://www.interoperabilitybridges.com/css3-grid-align/
  58. # [00:38] <CvP> grid is kinda ... great so far.
  59. # [00:38] <CvP> combine this with flex and it should be really "flexible"
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  83. # [01:37] <smaug____> abarth: I wonder if I'm just testing Chrome+SearchBox somehow wrongly
  84. # [01:37] <abarth> smaug____: possibly, how are you testing it?
  85. # [01:38] <smaug____> abarth: well, I have google as the default engine
  86. # [01:38] <abarth> chrome://settings/browser
  87. # [01:38] <abarth> Enable Instant for faster searching and browsing
  88. # [01:38] <smaug____> and I just type 'potato'
  89. # [01:38] <abarth> should be checked
  90. # [01:38] <smaug____> what should happen?
  91. # [01:38] <smaug____> yeah, I have that instant thing enabled
  92. # [01:38] <abarth> so, don't press enter
  93. # [01:38] <abarth> you should see the SERP for potato
  94. # [01:38] <smaug____> should I have google loaded
  95. # [01:38] <abarth> nope
  96. # [01:38] <abarth> any old tab will do
  97. # [01:39] <smaug____> ok
  98. # [01:39] <smaug____> so, I load first www.helsinki.fi
  99. # [01:39] <smaug____> then type 'potato', and not enter
  100. # [01:39] <smaug____> the old page just get dimmed
  101. # [01:40] <abarth> you don't see a results page?
  102. # [01:40] <smaug____> and the dropdown under search box gives potato soup, salad, etc
  103. # [01:40] <smaug____> that is all
  104. # [01:40] <smaug____> no search page
  105. # [01:40] <abarth> ok, you must not have the feature enabled properly
  106. # [01:40] <smaug____> is it possible that google is not serving the same pages to Europe?
  107. # [01:41] * smaug____ has restarted Chrome with and without the pref
  108. # [01:41] <abarth> that's possible. it's hard for me to test that
  109. # [01:42] <abarth> if you go to www.google.com
  110. # [01:42] <abarth> and type potato (without pressing enter)
  111. # [01:42] <abarth> do you see results?
  112. # [01:42] <smaug____> yeah, it does give me results
  113. # [01:42] <abarth> what happens if you type in the omnibox now?
  114. # [01:43] <abarth> (e.g., "dog" without pressing enter)
  115. # [01:43] <smaug____> google.com gets dimmed, and the dropdown under omnibox shows some results
  116. # [01:43] <smaug____> er
  117. # [01:43] <smaug____> not results
  118. # [01:43] <smaug____> but search suggests
  119. # [01:44] <abarth> what do you mean by dimmed?
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  121. # [01:45] <smaug____> abarth: there is some kind of background-color: white; opacity: 0.5; layer above the page
  122. # [01:45] <abarth> does that stay indefinitely?
  123. # [01:46] <smaug____> as long as I'm using omnibox without pressing enter
  124. # [01:46] <abarth> strange
  125. # [01:46] <abarth> that's the UI for waiting for results from the server
  126. # [01:46] <abarth> sounds like you're seeing some bugs
  127. # [01:47] <smaug____> I did get one crash earlier when setting instant search enabled first time
  128. # [01:47] <smaug____> or soon after that
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  130. # [01:48] <smaug____> abarth: anyway, so the idea is that when user types something to omnibox, search page is loaded and then browser communicates with that page?
  131. # [01:49] <abarth> yes
  132. # [01:49] <smaug____> where is that search page loaded?
  133. # [01:49] <abarth> in the main content area
  134. # [01:49] <abarth> just as it would be if you typed enter
  135. # [01:49] <smaug____> does the old page in the current tab get unloaded?
  136. # [01:49] <abarth> nope
  137. # [01:49] <abarth> it's just hidden
  138. # [01:49] <abarth> as if in a background tab
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  140. # [01:49] <abarth> it gets unloaded if you actually navigate to the search page
  141. # [01:50] <abarth> by typing enter
  142. # [01:50] <smaug____> the API assumes a lot of things, which aren't specified :(
  143. # [01:50] <abarth> yes, the spec needs a bunch of work
  144. # [01:50] <abarth> i asked tony to do some of that work
  145. # [01:50] <abarth> and he said he was hoping other folks would be interested in it
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  150. # [01:53] <smaug____> something in the API doesn't feel right... it has to do with exposing more information about browser chrome to web, and that way limit what the UI can be...
  151. # [01:54] <smaug____> need to think about this
  152. # [01:54] <abarth> i think the core use case if getting notified of typing quickly
  153. # [01:54] <abarth> so the results page can update
  154. # [01:54] <abarth> s/if/of/
  155. # [01:55] <abarth> also, having the results page supply suggested completions via javascript is also important for performance
  156. # [01:55] <smaug____> sure
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  158. # [01:56] <abarth> the occlusion stuff feels the most non-general to me
  159. # [01:58] <smaug____> abarth: why does the browser show any suggestions in this case? Couldn't all that be moved to the web page
  160. # [01:59] <smaug____> then there wouldn't be popupbox under the omnibox in this case
  161. # [01:59] * bentruyman is now known as bent_ruyman
  162. # [01:59] <abarth> there area a bunch of different suggestions shown the dropdown
  163. # [01:59] <abarth> not all of them are searches
  164. # [01:59] <smaug____> ah, right
  165. # [02:03] <smaug____> I wonder how Google search handles the case when location bar isn't on top
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  168. # [02:03] <abarth> there's probably a way to experiment with that using the web inspector
  169. # [02:04] <abarth> maybe it would make sense to separate the two parts of the proposal?
  170. # [02:04] <abarth> (the typing / suggestion data flow and the occlusion part)
  171. # [02:06] <smaug____> yeah
  172. # [02:06] <smaug____> and maybe not emphasize the "search" part so much, since also UI may overlap the page
  173. # [02:07] <smaug____> and web page may want to get data from browser UI also in some other cases.
  174. # [02:08] <smaug____> s/also UI/also other UI/
  175. # [02:10] <abarth> AutocompleteInput ?
  176. # [02:11] <abarth> (trying to think of non-search names)
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  229. # [05:36] <Xdega> are there any admins of the whatwg blog online?
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  231. # [05:39] <Hixie> Xdega: here - just looking at your post in fact
  232. # [05:39] <Xdega> cool
  233. # [05:40] <Hixie> Xdega: looks good, just change the <br/><br/> stuff to <p>s so people don't poke fun at us for using <br> when the spec says not to :-)
  234. # [05:40] <Hixie> oh and remove the &nbsp; at the end
  235. # [05:41] <Xdega> i think WP did that on it's own. Cause I used the editor
  236. # [05:41] <Hixie> ah ok
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  238. # [05:41] <Hixie> is there some way to change the markup that you can see?
  239. # [05:41] <Hixie> i can't see how to switch to it, it seems to be the default for me
  240. # [05:42] <Hixie> let me know if you can't, and i can do it
  241. # [05:44] <Xdega> yah, there is a html tab
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  243. # [05:45] <Xdega> i was fixing it, but noticed someone else was editing it simultaneously. heh
  244. # [05:46] <Hixie> if it said "ian hickson" or "admin" was editing it that's cos i was logged in and looking at it
  245. # [05:46] <Hixie> i noticed it said anne had touched it recently but i thought he was off on some faraway island or something
  246. # [05:46] <Xdega> k
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  248. # [05:48] <gsnedders> Hixie: I'm not sure South America (somewhere) counts as a faraway island. :)
  249. # [05:49] <Xdega> heh, well post markup fixd :D
  250. # [05:51] <Xdega> worst part is the wysiwyg editor in wp auto added xhtml style br tags, lol
  251. # [05:51] <Hixie> gsnedders: it's an island far from you, isn't it? :-P
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  254. # [05:52] <Hixie> Xdega:
  255. # [05:52] <Hixie> cool
  256. # [05:52] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) ("There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and BSD. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.")
  257. # [05:52] * Hixie tries to remember how to log into the blog again
  258. # [05:53] <Xdega> http://blog.whatwg.org/wp-login.php
  259. # [05:53] <Hixie> yeah i found it
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  261. # [05:56] <Hixie> man i really should let the experts do this
  262. # [05:56] * Hixie fights with wordpress :-P
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  264. # [05:56] <Hixie> ok!
  265. # [05:56] <Hixie> you should now have the right to publish your post
  266. # [05:57] <Hixie> hopefully i didn't break anything in the process
  267. # [05:57] <Xdega> cool
  268. # [05:57] * Hixie logs out quickly to limit the damage he can cause :-P
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  270. # [06:00] <Xdega> heh, alright. Blog entry published. good deal
  271. # [06:00] <Xdega> thx
  272. # [06:01] <Hixie> thank _you_!
  273. # [06:02] <Xdega> well 12am where I am. + Work bright and early = Bed Time.
  274. # [06:02] <Xdega> nn guys :D
  275. # [06:03] <Hixie> nn!
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  280. # [06:17] <othermaciej> hi everyone
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  283. # [06:20] * othermaciej just returned from 2 weeks in no-internet-land
  284. # [06:23] <heycam> othermaciej, come on, australia has internet
  285. # [06:23] <heycam> in places
  286. # [06:23] <heycam> :)
  287. # [06:23] <othermaciej> heycam: unfortunately, those places do not include Uluru or the Coral Sea
  288. # [06:24] <heycam> ah, nice! never been there myself.
  289. # [06:24] <othermaciej> (both very nice places, despite the lack of internet and high concentration of deadly flora and fauna)
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  292. # [06:34] <Hixie> nessy: yt?
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  294. # [06:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: yay, you returned!
  295. # [06:34] <Hixie> othermaciej: did you see the sky at night at Uluru?
  296. # [06:34] <othermaciej> hey there Hixie!
  297. # [06:34] <othermaciej> Hixie: yes
  298. # [06:34] <othermaciej> I even brought an iPad star chart app so I could identify the stars
  299. # [06:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: that's the most beautiful skyscape i've ever seen
  300. # [06:35] <othermaciej> spotting the milky way, the southern cross and orion was easy
  301. # [06:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: (only place i've ever been with no other lights)
  302. # [06:35] <othermaciej> but I am not sure I would have identified the Magellanic Clouds otherwise
  303. # [06:35] <Hixie> cool
  304. # [06:35] <othermaciej> or Saturn
  305. # [06:36] <othermaciej> GPS / accelerometer based star chart is so win
  306. # [06:36] <Hixie> yeah
  307. # [06:36] <Hixie> google sky, or something else?
  308. # [06:36] <Hixie> google sky is pretty sweet
  309. # [06:36] <Hixie> haven't played with it much though
  310. # [06:36] <othermaciej> it was one called RedShift
  311. # [06:36] <Hixie> ah, cool
  312. # [06:36] <Hixie> haven't seen that one
  313. # [06:36] <othermaciej> (and my girlfriend had Sky Walk)
  314. # [06:36] <othermaciej> I hadn't heard of Google Sky
  315. # [06:36] <Hixie> it's basically the opposite of google earth
  316. # [06:37] <Hixie> on the desktop it's just a subfeature of earth
  317. # [06:37] <Hixie> on mobile it's a separate app
  318. # [06:38] <othermaciej> doesn't seem to exist for iOS, unless it has a non-obvious name
  319. # [06:38] <Hixie> ah, yeah, might not be on iOS
  320. # [06:38] <Hixie> it's probably a 20% project
  321. # [06:39] <Hixie> so it probably just runs on the platform that whoever wrote it uses :-)
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  324. # [06:40] <othermaciej> anyway, you definitely can't find a place with that little light pollution anywhere in california
  325. # [06:40] <Hixie> yeah no kidding
  326. # [06:41] <Hixie> other than the middle of the ocean, you'd probably be hardpressed anywhere
  327. # [06:41] <Hixie> i doubt anywhere in europe is anywhere like that for instance
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  329. # [06:43] <kig> lapland maybe
  330. # [06:48] <othermaciej> I've previously noticed that just about any place in Australia that is far from major cities has a good night sky view
  331. # [06:48] <othermaciej> I would be there are places in Alaska or Canada that are far enough
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  388. # [10:25] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Did you ever make a pacth for prettyprinting in testharness.js?
  389. # [10:25] <jgraham> *patch
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  404. # [12:07] <Hixie> right. sent a proposal for -152.
  405. # [12:07] <Hixie> nn.
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  421. # [13:26] <jacobolus> someone maybe mention to Shelley that Columbia ≠ Colombia :)
  422. # [13:29] <jacobolus> otherwise, the weekly looks good
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  428. # [13:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: this test doesn't comply with the documented test format: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/diff?spec=svne4a9be41411d8592c858a4618a0cc68e2a6b2378&r=99e8af7f0c486da0f7ca7e570177d8f7b9f68ed4&format=side&path=/testdata/tree-construction/tests26.dat
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  430. # [13:44] <hsivonen> fixed now
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  439. # [14:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks
  440. # [14:11] <jgraham> The <time> element is supposed to render its datetime attribute, right?
  441. # [14:11] <jgraham> Or rather the parsed values of it
  442. # [14:12] <jgraham> Per http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-time-element-0
  443. # [14:14] <jgraham> However http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-time-element has an example
  444. # [14:14] <jgraham> <time class="dtend" datetime="2007-10-20">19</time>
  445. # [14:14] <jgraham> (The end date is encoded as one day after the last date of the event because in the iCalendar format, end dates are exclusive, not inclusive.)
  446. # [14:15] <jgraham> Which seems problematic given that a supporting UA will render 2007-10-20 not 2007-10-19
  447. # [14:16] <hsivonen> I wonder if it is intentional that text in a MathML text integration point doesn't reconstruct the active formatting elements
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  449. # [14:19] <matjas> someone with access to the @whatwg Twitter account should really tweet about the new WHATWG Weekly
  450. # [14:20] <hsivonen> who has twitter access except annevk?
  451. # [14:21] <hsivonen> the blog post UI has an option to tweet upon publishing. I guess it didn't get checked this time.
  452. # [14:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks for bugging the MathML text integration point stuff
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  454. # [14:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: Ragnarök implements it per spec, FWIW
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  461. # [14:35] <smaug____> what is "WHATWG Weekly"?
  462. # [14:35] <hsivonen> smaug____: a blog post series
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  464. # [14:38] <anne-vac> it seems the WordPress plugin we use for twitter broke
  465. # [14:38] <jgraham> Well that only lasted a week
  466. # [14:38] <anne-vac> as we are mostly recovering this morning from a night bus to Medellin I thought I could drop in
  467. # [14:40] <anne-vac> anyone who wants to take over maintaining the twitter account_
  468. # [14:40] <anne-vac> ? i mean
  469. # [14:40] <anne-vac> weird keyboards around here
  470. # [14:40] <anne-vac> I retweeted the tweet from shelley for now
  471. # [14:41] <Lachy> anne-vac, the twitter plugin offered an update and I just installed it about an hour or two ago.
  472. # [14:42] <Lachy> I just assumed it was still working
  473. # [14:42] <anne-vac> k
  474. # [14:42] <anne-vac> someone should also educate people about the URL feature of WordPress
  475. # [14:42] <hsivonen> well, this is rather useless. ghex2--a hex editor--won't copy and paste data with a zero byte in it!
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  477. # [14:43] <Lachy> the WP Dashboard also now displays the notice "Twitoaster Plugin is deprecated! Please read this announcement for more information" http://blog.twitoaster.com/twitoaster-shutting-down
  478. # [14:43] <anne-vac> yeah, we should find something else
  479. # [14:43] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  480. # [14:43] <anne-vac> there is a feed to twitter thingie somewhere, but that is not live
  481. # [14:44] <anne-vac> i rather have something live
  482. # [14:45] <anne-vac> nobody volunteering to maintain twitter?
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  485. # [14:47] <hsivonen> anne-vac: I suppose I could volunteer
  486. # [14:50] <anne-vac> alright, hsivonen is the one to bug now :)
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  489. # [14:51] <Lachy> hsivonen, I disabled Twitoaster
  490. # [14:52] <Lachy> you can uninstall it I guess, and install whatever
  491. # [14:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: my current plan is to tweet manually once per week until anne-vac returns it becomes his problem again
  492. # [15:00] <anne-vac> time to play cards on the balcony ;-)
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  496. # [15:08] <jgraham> So, logically, I must have an account on the blog since I have posted on it and stuff. But I have no idea what the email address for it is, even
  497. # [15:08] * gsnedders uses his 1337 hacker skillz to find out
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  499. # [15:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: @opera.com
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  502. # [15:12] <AryehGregor> jgraham, no, I saw all the twisty formatting code and gave up. The actual pretty-printing part is easy, I already made a function for that: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/8f1a0cc1800b/tests/submission/AryehGregor/reflection/original-harness.js#l16
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  505. # [15:16] <AryehGregor> It would probably be safe enough to shoehorn in the pretty-printing at the level of assert_*, though.
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  515. # [15:45] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That's what I was expecting you to do
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  517. # [15:46] <jgraham> Pretty-priting all subsitutions seems dangerous because sometimes you want "" to be output as the empty string and not quote characters
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  522. # [16:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: is the point of ark.dat that setting the attribute has an effect on the Noah's Ark rule?
  523. # [16:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: if so, I believe the test is wrong.
  524. # [16:07] <hsivonen> or if the test isn't wrong, the spec is.
  525. # [16:07] <hsivonen> because we wanted the tree builder never to read back from the DOM
  526. # [16:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: I thought it was supposed to test that it didn't have an effect
  527. # [16:08] <jgraham> It is not impossible that I checked in a broken version of the test by mistake
  528. # [16:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: interesting. I'm extremely sure that Gecko can't possibly read back from the DOM, and the result doesn't match the expected results
  529. # [16:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: at least it was broken in the sense that it didn't have a newline at the end of the file :-)
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  532. # [16:18] <hsivonen> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56727 What's the status in the CSS WG?
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  534. # [16:18] <jgraham> hsivonen: The ark test is clearly broken because it has a <font> as a child of the <script>
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  536. # [16:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: Which is a bug I fixed at least once :(
  537. # [16:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: With that fixed I think the test is right
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  539. # [16:19] <jgraham> and tests that we reconstruct using the original token rather than the DOM
  540. # [16:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: (If you have the file open right now and can push a fix, I would appreciate it)
  541. # [16:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok
  542. # [16:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: fixed
  543. # [16:28] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  544. # [16:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks
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  574. # [17:35] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Mixins haven't been proposed yet, because I haven't found time to do so yet. Glazman posted a comment on the bug to that effect about an hour ago.
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  578. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> elRTE.prototype.ui.prototype.buttons.button.prototype.command = function() {
  579. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> . . .
  580. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> ...
  581. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> Does my astonishment at that line indicate my JavaScript naivete, or am I correct that that looks kind of crazy?
  582. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> The latter.
  583. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> Good.
  584. # [17:42] <bga_> TabAtkins Class.prototype = Class;
  585. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> That's just rooting a prototype tree. ^_^
  586. # [17:43] <TabAtkins> (Object.prototype == Object)
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  589. # [17:45] <bga_> TabAtkins since i "invent" this trick i forget about 'prototype' word :)
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  597. # [17:59] <nessy> Hixie: nice change proposal!
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  622. # [18:45] <beowulf> are localStorage events implemented in any browser?
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  624. # [18:55] <beowulf> "The storage event is supported everywhere the localStorage object is supported, which includes Internet Explorer 8." # is that true? http://diveintohtml5.org/storage.html
  625. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Very likely, if diveintohtml5.org says it.
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  630. # [19:16] <beowulf> gah, need two tabs open
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  632. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Grr, I hate trying to read dense declarative formats.
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  665. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Wow, Selection.collapse() is an interop trainwreck.
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  667. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> Opera seems to actually treat it like removeAllRanges().
  668. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> IE9 seems to get most cases right if they're sane, which means it only fails about two-thirds of my tests.
  669. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> WebKit's Selection.collapse() makes me want to cry tears of blood.
  670. # [20:24] <AryehGregor> I don't know *what* it's doing.
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  672. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's just because WebKit's Selection implementation is completely nonstandard and can only select things that are actually visible.
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  674. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> I think that explains most of it
  675. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> .
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  679. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> What is collapse() supposed to do in the first place?
  680. # [20:35] <othermaciej> I would assume it's supposed to collapse the selection to a caret (though at which end, I don't know)
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  687. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, othermaciej, it's called like selection.collapse(node, offset), and it collapses the selection to the given place.
  688. # [20:41] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  689. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Range.collapse() collapses it to the start or end, depending on whether you pass true or false as its parameter (don't ask me which is which).
  690. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> I dunno who decided to name those two methods the same thing when they mean something entirely different.
  691. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> (WebKit's Range implementation is fine, it's only its Selections that are really weird)
  692. # [20:42] <othermaciej> our Selection tries to limit endpoints to selections that could be created by user interaction
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  695. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Which is reasonable in principle, perhaps, but not what anyone else does, or what the spec says.
  696. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Maybe not reasonable in principle, either, because it makes the behavior of Selection stuff depend on, e.g., CSS.
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  727. # [22:01] <jgraham> heycam: yt? If I have a readonly property and I apply the delete operator, what happens? I feel there is some magic spec text I am overlooking
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  730. # [22:03] <heycam> hi jgraham
  731. # [22:03] <heycam> the behaviour falls out just due to the attributes of the property
  732. # [22:04] * heycam will find spec text link
  733. # [22:05] <jgraham> heycam: That's what I thought, but I couldn't see why it would return true if that were the case
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  735. # [22:06] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  736. # [22:06] <jgraham> So I guess I missed something
  737. # [22:06] * ap|away is now known as ap
  738. # [22:06] <heycam> hmm, how does delete work when you use it on an object and the property comes from the prototype?
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  741. # [22:07] <heycam> if you do `delete Node.prototype.nodeType`, that should actually remove the property, since properties for attributes are configurable now, per spec
  742. # [22:08] <heycam> (they were originally ReadOnly, when the spec targetted ES3, and that carried over to them being non-configurable, until a recent change)
  743. # [22:08] <jgraham> Ah
  744. # [22:08] <heycam> ok so `delete myNode.nodeType` should return true and do nothing
  745. # [22:08] <heycam> because there's no own property "nodeType" on the instance
  746. # [22:09] <jgraham> What about delete on the prototype object?
  747. # [22:09] <heycam> that will remove it and return true
  748. # [22:09] <jgraham> OK
  749. # [22:10] <jgraham> It seems that it was not my reading comprehension skills that were at fault but my assumptions
  750. # [22:11] <jgraham> To be clear, all properties except constants are now defined on the prototypes rather than on instances?
  751. # [22:11] <jgraham> so e.g. document.hasOwnProperty("createElement") is false
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  753. # [22:12] <heycam> jgraham, that's right
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  755. # [22:12] <heycam> hmm is that true about constants?
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  757. # [22:13] <jgraham> I might be misremembering
  758. # [22:13] <heycam> no, constants go both on the interface object itself and the prototype
  759. # [22:14] <jgraham> Yeah, sorry I confused the interface object and the instance object
  760. # [22:14] <jgraham> Right, it all makes sense now :)
  761. # [22:14] <jgraham> For small values of all
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  763. # [22:15] <heycam> :)
  764. # [22:15] <jgraham> heycam: thanks :)
  765. # [22:15] <heycam> np
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  775. # [22:35] <nessy> is wiki.whatwg down?
  776. # [22:35] <Hixie> does seem that way
  777. # [22:35] <Hixie> weird
  778. # [22:36] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.181.200)
  779. # [22:36] <tw2113> It's not just you! - http://wiki.whatwg looks down from here.
  780. # [22:36] <tw2113> according to the bot in #html5
  781. # [22:36] <Hixie> oh, there it is
  782. # [22:36] <Hixie> ok it's up
  783. # [22:36] <Hixie> dunno what that was about
  784. # [22:36] <nessy> thanks :)
  785. # [22:37] <tw2113> it hiccuped
  786. # [22:37] <nessy> I take it personal
  787. # [22:37] <Hixie> btw you'll notice that wiki.whatwg.org is now on IPv6 :-)
  788. # [22:37] <Hixie> (as are all my sites now)
  789. # [22:38] <nessy> ah, the big ipv6 day
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  791. # [22:38] <Hixie> happened a few days ago actually
  792. # [22:38] <nessy> are you at MTV today?
  793. # [22:38] <Hixie> yeah
  794. # [22:38] <nessy> am here, too
  795. # [22:39] <tw2113> here's a good question
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  797. # [22:40] <tw2113> should we be viewing the IPv4 vs IPv6 as a complete move or an expansion?
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  799. # [22:40] <tw2113> sort of like adding a million rooms to a house instead of moving into a million room larger house
  800. # [22:40] <tw2113> although i know IPv6 will offer more addresses than we'll ever need
  801. # [22:42] <Hixie> IPv6 doesn't add _that_ many addresses
  802. # [22:42] <tw2113> gotcha, just curious
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  806. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it adds approximately 6.7 x 10^23 addresses per square meter of the Earth's surface.
  807. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> Which is slightly more than Avogadro's number, as Andrew S. Tanenbaum points out in his networking textbook.
  808. # [22:47] <Hixie> yeah but the entire top half of the address space is for in-subnet host identifications
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  810. # [22:47] <Hixie> so it's only really 2^64 subnets
  811. # [22:47] <Hixie> not 2^128 hosts
  812. # [22:47] <tw2113> and we have to account for 10 different addresses per person
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  814. # [22:48] <Hixie> and that's not even enough for one subnet per known star
  815. # [22:48] <tw2113> because we're all hyperconnected these days
  816. # [22:48] <Hixie> let alone per planet or per user on all those planets
  817. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> Nobody says we can't change how we assign the addresses later.
  818. # [22:48] <Hixie> yeah cos that worked so well with ipv4
  819. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> IPv4 originally had addresses only assigned in Class A, B, or C blocks, right?
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  821. # [22:48] <Hixie> we only used about 15% of ipv4 by the time it was "completely exhausted"
  822. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> 15% of 2^128 is an awful lot more than 2^64.
  823. # [22:49] <othermaciej> if we ever run IP at interstellar scales, it will need a version bump anyway
  824. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> Granted it will always be underallocated due to routing concerns, but not by a factor of 2^64.
  825. # [22:49] <othermaciej> to increase the maximum timeout to hundreds of years
  826. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Aren't timeouts a TCP feature?
  827. # [22:50] <Hixie> ipv6 is obviously a whole heck of a lot bigger than ipv4, i'm just saying that we shouldn't get cocky and think it's more addresses than we'll ever need
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  830. # [22:50] <othermaciej> I believe IP has a maximum TTL before your packets get dropped
  831. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but isn't the TTL in hops, not seconds?
  832. # [22:51] <Hixie> vint has already worked on a variant of IP for interplanetary use
  833. # [22:51] <Hixie> i believe it's what is used to communicate with the devices in orbit around mars
  834. # [22:52] <othermaciej> yeah, but, there we're talking order of minutes, not years / hundreds of years for transit time
  835. # [22:52] <Hixie> i don't know the specifics
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  837. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Realistically, the model of a single network where any address is transparently addressable breaks down when you get to a scale of anything close to light-years.
  838. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> It makes no sense for transport or application layers to be agnostic about whether they're communicating with someone 100 ms away or 100 years away.
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  840. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> If you were communicating with faraway planets, you'd very likely want to use different protocols all down the stack.
  841. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> I mean, they could share some things, but I doubt IP-addressability is going to be an important requirement.
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  843. # [22:59] <Hixie> one can imagine a situation in which one would want to have one virtual host per star, or some such, in which case the number of stars is relevant but their relative distance is not. but i'm just making stuff up here. :-)
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  846. # [23:00] <Hixie> i just think it's silly to say things along the lines of "more [...] than we'll ever need" since historically there's always come a time where someone has come up with something that needs more
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  848. # [23:01] <Hixie> maybe we'll be numbering atoms by IP address, in which case 6.7 x 10^23 addresses limits us to one mole, which isn't much at all, e.g.
  849. # [23:01] <Hixie> it's sufficient addresses for the forseeable future though
  850. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> But that will only hold true until we make the numbers large enough to exceed any relevant physical limits.
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  852. # [23:02] <Hixie> not if we transcend the relevant physical limits :-)
  853. # [23:02] <Hixie> and one can easily have a host that responds to 2^128 addresses without having to have 2^128 rows in a configuration file or whatnot
  854. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> For instance, ZFS uses 128-bit block pointers on the theory that the information entropy of storing 2^128 bits would be enough to boil the oceans.
  855. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> I'll grant that that's not a totally bulletproof argument.
  856. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> But it's fair to say that "2^128 blocks is all a filesystem will ever need" is much more likely to be true than "640 KB is all anyone will ever need".
  857. # [23:03] <AryehGregor> It's a qualitatively different sort of statement.
  858. # [23:04] <Hixie> both are unjustifiably unqualified, imho
  859. # [23:04] <Hixie> it's easy to add "for the forseeable future" :-)
  860. # [23:07] <uf0> guys, what you feel about multiple h2 tags
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  862. # [23:08] <uf0> example: <h1>search result for: johnny</h1>... <h2>result title 1</h2> <h2>result title 2</h2>
  863. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> What about it?
  864. # [23:08] <uf0> or should those be result titles be <h3>
  865. # [23:09] <Hixie> doesn't matter
  866. # [23:09] <uf0> question is.. should it multiple h2 or h3
  867. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Why do you think there's a difference?
  868. # [23:09] <uf0> doesn't it according to Mr. Google
  869. # [23:09] <Hixie> mr google cares about the quality of your content
  870. # [23:09] <Hixie> not about whether you use h2 or h3
  871. # [23:10] <uf0> i know, but they clearly put emphasis on a H1 tag
  872. # [23:10] <uf0> so that's why i wonder about h2s 3s
  873. # [23:10] <uf0> for arguments sake, which one would you guys use?
  874. # [23:11] <Hixie> personally i'd use <section> and <h1>
  875. # [23:11] <Evet> anyone tried amplesdk + xul?
  876. # [23:11] <Hixie> uf0: as in <body> <h1>page title</h1> <section> <h1>subtitle</h1> ...content... </section> <section> <h1>subtitle</h1> ...content... </section> </body>
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  878. # [23:13] <uf0> Hixie: H1 for page title and subtitle? hmm
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  882. # [23:16] <uf0> alright
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  892. # [23:27] <Hixie> uf0: <section> resets the scope for <h1>
  893. # [23:27] <Hixie> uf0: see the spec :-) developers.whatwg.org
  894. # [23:32] <uf0> gotcha thanks hixie
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  896. # [23:38] <pkzip> I have a spec query...
  897. # [23:38] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  898. # [23:38] <pkzip> ... anyone want to take it?
  899. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> pkzip, ask and you'll find out.
  900. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Ask questions, not questions about your questions, please. ^_^
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  902. # [23:40] <pkzip> Ok, well here we go. A table, height 100%,, in a body, html of height 100%. Two rows. First fixed height (say 100px), the other auto height.
  903. # [23:41] <pkzip> The spec doesn't define how a child of the cell in the second, auto-height row calculates its height.
  904. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Correct. Table rendering is essentially undefined.
  905. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> (Unfortunately.)
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  907. # [23:41] <pkzip> Chrome does the obvious thing.
  908. # [23:41] <pkzip> But IE and FF don't. And I think it would be very useful if FF at least copied Chrome, so that say a div of height 100% in the second td
  909. # [23:42] <pkzip> fills it up, rather than trying to be the same height as the entire table
  910. # [23:42] <pkzip> which IMO makes no sense.
  911. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> I suspect no one's going to be willing to change their algorithms much until someone writes a spec.
  912. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Put a bug on them, then? Like I said, there is *not* any spec text actually mandating a behavior here. At the moment it's purely a quality-of-implementation issue.
  913. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> Too much risk of breaking stuff.
  914. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> But you could try to file a bug against Firefox.
  915. # [23:42] <pkzip> Okay. So that's the thing to do, file a bug?
  916. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> For now, yeah, that's the best you can do. No promises about what it'll accomplish, though.
  917. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> I'm curious as to why you're using a screen-filling table as a direct child of <body>, though.
  918. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> That sounds like a layout table.
  919. # [23:43] <pkzip> Yeah I get that. So here's a meta-question- I thought one of the points of html5 was to standardise stuff like this.
  920. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> This is CSS, not HTML.
  921. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> This is a CSS issue, not an HTML issue.
  922. # [23:44] <pkzip> Ohhhh. :)
  923. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> But yes, you're right more generally.
  924. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> We do want to standardize things like this.
  925. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> But there's loads and loads of stuff to standardize, and no one's gotten around to this specific one yet.
  926. # [23:44] <jgraham> You could file a bug against TabAtkins to make him work on this
  927. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> Indeed. The only problem is that no one has so far wanted to spend the effort to write a Table Module.
  928. # [23:44] <jgraham> Or against his manager to assign him to work on it
  929. # [23:44] <AryehGregor> Hopefully someone will standardize it in the not-too-distant future.
  930. # [23:45] * jgraham doesn't know if TabAtkins or anyone above him in the heirachy has a public bugtracker though :)
  931. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> I do not, thank the gods.
  932. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Though that would be pretty funny.
  933. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> And... maybe useful?
  934. # [23:46] <pkzip> This is table-for-layout, btw. Because there's still stuff that only tables are good for.
  935. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> pkzip: I doubt that you actually need a table for what you're doing. It's possible, but I've been able to get *very* far without them.
  936. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> (Leaning on display:table has solved some of the problems I've run into, of course.)
  937. # [23:47] * Hixie pokes nessy to read her e-mail :-P
  938. # [23:48] <pkzip> Okay, well display:table too. But display:table ends up with exactly the issue I first described, of course!
  939. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  940. # [23:48] * Joins: NaOH (~NaOH@c-24-34-86-78.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  941. # [23:50] <pkzip> Okay bug it is then. Thanks.
  942. # [23:53] * Parts: NaOH (~NaOH@c-24-34-86-78.hsd1.nh.comcast.net)
  943. # [23:57] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  944. # [23:57] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Client Quit)
  945. # [23:58] * Joins: xbuzz_ (~chris@c-24-63-24-211.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  946. # Session Close: Tue Mar 22 00:00:00 2011

The end :)