/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-06 / end

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  82. # [02:42] <aho> anyone got a test page for "storage" event?
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  85. # [02:45] <aho> "a storage event is fired on every window/tab except for the one that updated the localStorage object and caused the event"
  86. # [02:45] <aho> oh... nevermind
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  251. # [08:51] <hsivonen> hmm. do I want to read the PUT and DELETE thread?
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  254. # [08:58] <hsivonen> I guess I don't
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  257. # [09:08] <hsivonen> wow. the Designated Experts don't consider the pingback spec *stable* enough!
  258. # [09:08] <hsivonen> the spec might suck in various ways (XML-RPC!), but empirically it seems to have been pretty stable
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  266. # [09:17] <matjas> TabAtkins: \o/
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  282. # [09:45] <abarth> hsivonen: you might or might not be interested in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57794 (basically, the fragment parsing algorithm can result in two body elements
  283. # [09:45] <abarth> )
  284. # [09:47] <hsivonen> abarth: cool. looks entirely logical :-)
  285. # [09:49] <hsivonen> abarth: what behavior would you expect with <script>document.documentElement.appendChild(document.createElement("body"));</script> ?
  286. # [09:49] <abarth> oh, i think it's fine to have multiple bodies created by the DOM
  287. # [09:49] <abarth> it just seems like the parser shouldn't create more than one implicitly
  288. # [09:50] <hsivonen> setting innerHTML makes stuff "created by the DOM"
  289. # [09:50] <abarth> why is that?
  290. # [09:50] <hsivonen> abarth: it's not creating more than one implicitly per invocation
  291. # [09:50] <abarth> ok, but if you let the main parser create the <body> first
  292. # [09:50] <hsivonen> innerHTML is a DOM property
  293. # [09:50] <abarth> then innerHTML on the documentElement won't create another body
  294. # [09:51] <hsivonen> abarth: because it removes the old one first
  295. # [09:52] <abarth> i understand your point of view
  296. # [09:52] <abarth> but i'm not sure it's the more sensible way of looking at the situation
  297. # [09:52] * Joins: jochen___ (~jochen@nat/google/x-jhzxmcymkqdqjabb)
  298. # [09:53] <abarth> anyway, it's not clear to me whether we should change how this works in the parser
  299. # [09:53] <abarth> or add some compat shim to the system API layer
  300. # [09:54] <abarth> b/c we've only seen the issue in natives apps so far
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  303. # [09:54] <abarth> "If you don't like the outcome, don't write code that sets innerHTML of the document element before the network stream parser has finished."
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  305. # [09:54] <abarth> hahahaha
  306. # [09:55] <hsivonen> abarth: natives in plural or one native?
  307. # [09:55] <abarth> that's the only report i've seen so far
  308. # [09:55] <abarth> it's apple-internal stuff
  309. # [09:55] <abarth> so i only see what ends up in the public bug tracker
  310. # [09:55] <abarth> we could ask andy if there are multiple examples
  311. # [09:56] <abarth> we already have some awesome compat shims for native apps
  312. # [09:56] <abarth> for Mail.app
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  315. # [09:56] <abarth> there's a JavaScript script that we run
  316. # [09:56] <abarth> to get rid of the implicit head element
  317. # [09:56] <hsivonen> abarth: implicit head with innerHTML or with network stream parsing?
  318. # [09:57] <abarth> network stream
  319. # [09:57] <hsivonen> wow
  320. # [09:57] <abarth> more specifically, the problem is the text nodes between the two or something
  321. # [09:57] <abarth> or maybe it's implicit head itself
  322. # [09:57] <abarth> i forget
  323. # [09:57] <abarth> there was a hack in the old parser for that
  324. # [09:57] <hsivonen> nodes in between sound more believable
  325. # [09:57] <abarth> but we pushed it up to a higher layer
  326. # [09:58] <abarth> a lot of native apps require <script src="../>
  327. # [09:58] <abarth> <script src="..." />
  328. # [09:58] <abarth> to be self-closing
  329. # [09:58] <abarth> :(
  330. # [09:58] <hsivonen> it's quite sad that a handful of mail apps are more trouble than the wild Web
  331. # [09:58] <abarth> its because of the monoculture
  332. # [09:59] <hsivonen> though so far, the one Thunderbird problem I've fixed was an actual parser bug
  333. # [09:59] <hsivonen> but it was exposed due to Thunderbird doing stuff in a way that you wouldn't expect by reading the spec layering
  334. # [09:59] <zcorpan> ie doesn't allow innerHTML on root at all (at least prior to ie9, haven't tested ie9)
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  336. # [10:00] <hsivonen> if I understand things correctly Thunderbird doesn't have clean layering of MIME encoding, character encoding and HTML parsing
  337. # [10:01] <hsivonen> the Web believes that the character encoding layer melds into the HTML parser
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  339. # [10:01] <hsivonen> I have been lead to believe Thunderbird combines it into the MIME layer instead
  340. # [10:02] <abarth> i'm not even sure how that would work
  341. # [10:02] <abarth> how could the HTML decide that something was actually a PNG?
  342. # [10:02] <hsivonen> one would expect the MIME layer to give you bytes and a Content-Type like HTTP
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  345. # [10:03] <hsivonen> if I've understood correctly, the MIME layer in thunderbird performs at least <meta> sniffing itself
  346. # [10:04] <hsivonen> abarth: I don't know about your PNG question. I try not to look at the MIME code.
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  348. # [10:05] <hsivonen> I think UTF-7 decoding is now part of the MIME layer
  349. # [10:05] <hsivonen> or something like that
  350. # [10:05] <hsivonen> unless it got refactored again
  351. # [10:06] * abarth is happy the UTF-7 decoder was removed from Firefox
  352. # [10:06] * jgraham remembers encountering the multiple-<body> issue before and being told to not worry about it :)
  353. # [10:07] <hsivonen> there was another multiple body case with OWA
  354. # [10:08] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?as_q=document%5C.%28documentElement%7CfirstChild%29%5C.innerHTML%5Cs%2A%3D&btnG=Search+Code&hl=en&as_package=&as_lang=&as_filename=&as_class=&as_function=&as_license=&;as_case=
  355. # [10:08] <hsivonen> that was "fixed" by special-casing html in the html namespace as the context node for createContextualFragment
  356. # [10:08] <hsivonen> which reminds me that I should write tests for calling insertAdjacentHTML on body and head
  357. # [10:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hooray for XForms righteousness implemented on top of innerHTML
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  363. # [10:18] <hsivonen> looks like insertAdjacentHTML on document.head and document.body when inserting beforebegin or afterend behaves as if the context node was "body" instead of "html"
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  366. # [10:22] <hsivonen> Opera behaves as if "html" was the context but only "body" got implied--not head
  367. # [10:22] <hsivonen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/916
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  370. # [10:23] <hsivonen> Chrome implies both head and body
  371. # [10:23] <hsivonen> interop FTW!
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  374. # [10:25] <hsivonen> and by code inspection, I expect my impl to vary between the IE9 behavior and the Chrome behavior depending on whether an optimized code path is taken...
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  378. # [10:29] <abarth> is there a spec for insertAdjacentHTML ?
  379. # [10:29] <abarth> i think the WebKit codepath goes through the same mechanism as createContextualFragment
  380. # [10:30] <hsivonen> abarth: yes, there's a spec.
  381. # [10:30] <abarth> if you'd be willing to file a bug, i'd be happy to fix it
  382. # [10:30] <abarth> but i'm going to head to bed soon
  383. # [10:30] <hsivonen> abarth: if you have the same code path, you got insertAdjacentHTML "right" per current spec by luck and createContextualFragment "wrong" as required by OWA
  384. # [10:31] <hsivonen> abarth: I intend to file a spec bug asking for IE9's behavior to be made standard
  385. # [10:31] <abarth> there's added complication because this code is also used by editing
  386. # [10:32] <abarth> at some point, i need to go back and fix all the html5lib tests
  387. # [10:32] <hsivonen> abarth: hopefully your code, not the tests :-)
  388. # [10:32] <abarth> well, either way :)
  389. # [10:33] <abarth> but i meant my code
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  393. # [10:35] * abarth is now known as abarth|zZz
  394. # [10:38] <jgraham> Is the presence of interface objects in the DOM defined somewhere before Web DOM Core and other WebIDL-using specs?
  395. # [10:38] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I should try Ragnarök before I ask for spec changes
  396. # [10:39] <hsivonen> Ragnarök behaves per spec like Chrome
  397. # [10:40] <hsivonen> perhaps I should just fix my code to do the same
  398. # [10:40] <hsivonen> and then we can declare IE9 non-compliant
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  400. # [10:41] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I should still try some old IE versions first
  401. # [10:41] <hsivonen> I wonder if Hixie remembered to test this stuff
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  405. # [10:48] <hsivonen> IE6 disagrees with the spec
  406. # [10:48] <hsivonen> and it's their API
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  416. # [11:04] <zcorpan> yeah, the w3c monster should be ashamed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12432
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  418. # [11:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what's the SeaMonkey remark about? is the commenting script broken in SeaMonkey?
  419. # [11:07] <zcorpan> dunno, maybe he had scripting disabled first
  420. # [11:08] <jgraham> There is a W3C monster?
  421. # [11:08] <jgraham> You're not thinking of MikeSmith?
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  423. # [11:09] <hsivonen> is there even supposed to be a commenting script on the W3C version?
  424. # [11:10] <zcorpan> yeah, although it's different from the whatwg one
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  426. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I didn't see it in my browser
  427. # [11:13] <zcorpan> it's a form in the sotd
  428. # [11:16] <hsivonen> oh
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  455. # [12:42] * hsivonen notes that nessy's WebVTT example at Google included <c.red.caps>
  456. # [12:42] <hsivonen> so much for Hixie's quest to exorcise presentationalism
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  459. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisRPPv2Hg8
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  475. # [13:47] <hsivonen> what's the business model of xtranormal?
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  478. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: they charge "points" based on which features you use
  479. # [13:49] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  480. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> e.g., if you want to use particular characters
  481. # [13:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do the points cost actual money?
  482. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> yeah
  483. # [13:49] <MikeSmith> I paid 10 USD for 1200 points
  484. # [13:49] <hsivonen> ok
  485. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> and it cost me about 300 points to make a short movie
  486. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> it seems like a pretty decent model
  487. # [13:50] <hsivonen> yeah
  488. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> and their UI/app is really outstanding
  489. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> it's Flash-based but it's one of those things that we should look at when considering what new features to add to the Web platform to make something like that possible natively in a browser
  490. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> speaking of money, I just bought my first e-book
  491. # [13:52] <hsivonen> seems like it should be possible to use WebGL to render that kind of scenes in real time
  492. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
  493. # [13:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in which format?
  494. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: true (about WebGL)
  495. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> format is epub 2.0
  496. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> but with DRM
  497. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> unfortunately
  498. # [13:54] <hsivonen> I have been trying to divest my paper publication holdings
  499. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> bought it from Kobo for around 10 USED
  500. # [13:54] <hsivonen> so much paper
  501. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> amen
  502. # [13:54] <Lachy> MikeSmith, don't you find those movies generated by xtranormal with their monotonous computer generated voices to be extremely irritating?
  503. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> Lachy: exactly the opposite
  504. # [13:55] <hsivonen> I wish I had accumulated a few files in my NAS during my life so far instead of all this paper to move from an apartment to another
  505. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I find them wildly entertaining
  506. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> and you can change the voices
  507. # [13:55] <Lachy> ???
  508. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> they have a bunch of voices to choose from
  509. # [13:55] <Lachy> do they let you record your own voice tracks?
  510. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> no
  511. # [13:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: I particularly like the tone of voice in the Web Socket movie
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  513. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> Lachy: that would not be any fund
  514. # [13:56] <Lachy> hsivonen, link?
  515. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't keep paper books around any more. If I buy a new paper book, I sell it to my local used bookstore as soon as I am finished reading it
  516. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> or I give it away
  517. # [13:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7991991/web-sockets-we-are-the-first
  518. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> some books my local shop won't buy because they already have unsold copies of them
  519. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> anyway, Kobo seem to have their heads in the right place mostly
  520. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.kobobooks.com/ebook/Maintenance-Of-Headway/book-nwxMhg3cS0eVu0mgx7ggiQ/page1.html
  521. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> they also have e-books that aren't available elsewhere
  522. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> though that book it would not let me download initially when I gave a US physical address
  523. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I had to lie to it and give it fake UK address
  524. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I recommend trying out making a short movie in xtranormal
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  528. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> it's pretty fun and very easy
  529. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> and Kobo's reader software is better than Adobe's Digital Editions reader
  530. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> for one thing, it automatically repaginates so that you never have to do any vertical scrolling
  531. # [14:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: does it read Adobe's DRM?
  532. # [14:03] <hsivonen> I haven't bought an ebook reader, because I want one that I can use in the evening without disrupting my sleep (i.e. I believe the melatonin claims) and I want to read both English and Finnish books
  533. # [14:03] <hsivonen> so for English books I should be buying a Kindle
  534. # [14:04] <hsivonen> and for Finnish ones something else that is tethered to Adobe's software
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  536. # [14:05] <hsivonen> after experiencing Flash Player and Adobe Reader, I don't want any new Adobe-made free content rendering software in my life
  537. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: If you mean books that are intended to be read in Adobe Digital Editions, I don't know if Kobo can read those are not
  538. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> hmm, make it can
  539. # [14:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I meant epub with Adobe's DRM. I gather those need to be uploaded to a device using Adobe Digital Editions
  540. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> ok
  541. # [14:07] <MikeSmith> yeah, don't know
  542. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> but the Digital Editions reader app is really disappointing, so I would be unhappy if I purchased something and could only read it in that app
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  545. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: about reading in the evening, I think there are a couple of things that help
  546. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> one is using reverse video / white text on black background
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  548. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> another is wearing glasses that block out a lot of the blue
  549. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., orange lenses
  550. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> so anyway, I think for reading at night using a tablet as a reader, with the screen flipped to white text on black might be better than using a backlit reader like kindle or whatever
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  552. # [14:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it somehow seems wrong to have to go through the trouble of using orange lenses in order to read in the evening
  553. # [14:19] <hsivonen> as opposed to the device doing the right thing itself
  554. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> yeah
  555. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> but another solution is to wear orange lenses all the time
  556. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> which is what I do :)
  557. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> I don't really know if it helps or not
  558. # [14:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do orange lenses have harmful side effects to the eyes?
  559. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> because my sleep cycle is whacked anyway
  560. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno
  561. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> but I hope not…
  562. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I want a device that doesn't disrupt sleep, is light and portable, runs Firefox (Firefox Sync specifically) and supports both English and Finnish books in the forms they actually are sold
  563. # [14:22] <hsivonen> AFAICT, such a device doesn't exist
  564. # [14:22] <hsivonen> which is sad
  565. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> the disrupting sleep part is the hard part I guess
  566. # [14:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if that requirement were removed, an Android tablet would work
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  568. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> well, really, if you are reading at night you must have to use some kind of light source, and that's going to have some effect as far as the melatonin thing goes
  569. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> I am sure incandescent light is less disruptive
  570. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> than light from a laptop or PC screen
  571. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> or fluorescent light
  572. # [14:26] <hsivonen> Which makes me wonder if the effects of light bulbs vs. these EU-mandated energy saving thingies on sleep has been researched
  573. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> yeah, I would be interesting to see some data about that
  574. # [14:28] * hsivonen learns that the CNN front page uses the <style> element all over outside <head>
  575. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> but I was just re-reading about the light-vs-melatonin effect
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  578. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> and it seems like it almost completely caused by blue-wavelength light
  579. # [14:31] <MikeSmith> and getting rid of the blue as you can apparently does make a very significant difference
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  604. # [17:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  660. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> Peter`: you around?
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  662. # [18:56] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Because green jelly babies give you acne?
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  664. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: did you see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MisRPPv2Hg8 yet?
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  669. # [19:03] <zcorpan> heh hadn't seen it
  670. # [19:03] <Peter`> MikeSmith: yup! Thanks!
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  673. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> Peter`: big congrats man
  674. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> you relocating or plan to work from home for now?
  675. # [19:04] <Peter`> Cheers :) I'll be relocating to London
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  677. # [19:04] <gsnedders> Peter`: What are you doing?
  678. # [19:05] <Peter`> I'll be joining Google as part of the Chrome team :)
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  687. # [19:10] <Peter`> gsnedders, there's some more info on http://peter.sh/2011/04/joining-google/
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  699. # [19:27] <jgraham> Peter`: Nice :)
  700. # [19:27] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  701. # [19:33] <kangax> Does input[type="file"] have any kind of activation behavior defined? I can't seem to find anything in the spec. Nightly webkit, Chrome 12 and FF4 show upload file dialog; Opera does nothing, it seems.
  702. # [19:35] <kangax> (i'm invoking `click()` method on an element, which should run synthetic click activation steps, from what I can see)
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  705. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> Browsers tend to restrict how you can use file inputs in various nonstandard ways, for security reasons.
  706. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> What's Chrome 12, canary?
  707. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Either dev or canary, yeah.
  708. # [19:41] <TabAtkins> Beta is 11 right now.
  709. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> Oh, hmm.
  710. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> You know, Ubuntu hasn't suggested I update for a long time now.
  711. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> I'm still on 11 for dev.
  712. # [19:41] * AryehGregor looks into his config
  713. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> 124 updates have been selected. 212.0 MB will be downloaded.
  714. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> Thanks, Ubuntu.
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  724. # [20:13] <kangax> AryehGregor: I understand security implications. I was surprised to see FF, Chrome and WebKit actually show upload dialog on click.
  725. # [20:15] <miketaylr> i remember there was a mozilla drag and drop/file demo that relied on .click() working
  726. # [20:16] <miketaylr> http://paulrouget.github.com/miniuploader/
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  728. # [20:18] <kangax> miketaylr: yep, that shouldn't work in Opera then
  729. # [20:19] <miketaylr> yeah, it does't
  730. # [20:20] <Rik`> kangax: .click() is new in Firefox 4
  731. # [20:20] <miketaylr> s/does't/doesn't/
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  733. # [20:21] <kangax> Rik`: yeah it is
  734. # [20:22] <kangax> Rik`: i remember one of my tests was (wrongly) failing in earlier FF due to that — https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=583514#c32
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  762. # [21:27] <AryehGregor> Is it intentional that anolis adds <a> around <code> instead of inside, so the underline is blue instead of orange?
  763. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> I hate CSS underlines.
  764. # [21:30] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Yes.
  765. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, why?
  766. # [21:31] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Because you want to link that code fragment, not make the link a code fragment
  767. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, um, what's the actual difference?
  768. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> Other than having the wrong underline color.
  769. # [21:32] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It's a theoretical semantic distinction, mostly.
  770. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, so actually there's no difference except maybe according to some debatable notion of theoretical purity, but it creates the wrong underline colors?
  771. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> So maybe it should be changed?
  772. # [21:33] <AryehGregor> I personally think that <a><code>Foo</code></a> and <code><a>Foo</a></code> have identical semantics.
  773. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> I don't see why they wouldn't.
  774. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> How could markup be semantically part of code? Only the text content is the code.
  775. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> And the text content is the same regardless.
  776. # [21:34] * gsnedders discussed this with Hixie a couple of years back, and there was agreement that semantically the default behaviour is right, but due to CSS limitations the option was added
  777. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> Also, could we have <var> not be autolinked unless you explicitly give it a title, so <var> is the same as <var title>? Because I don't think I've ever seen <var> used to actually link anything, but it's used massively to do non-linked variables.
  778. # [21:35] <gsnedders> HTML5 uses it
  779. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Where?
  780. # [21:36] <gsnedders> Dunno. It's been a while since I've touched Anolis. :)
  781. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> You could do a > code:only-child { text-decoration: underline }.
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  784. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Thanks for telling me about the option, anyway. I'll switch it on for DOM Range and HTML Editing Commands.
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  804. # [22:31] <bfrohs> Just to verify, setting a checkbox to readonly *should* make it impossible to change the checkedness, correct?
  805. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Should make it impossible for a user to change it, certainly. I forget whether or not that has any effect on js twiddling the property.
  806. # [22:33] <bfrohs> Bummer, FF4 kinda fails at restricting that :(
  807. # [22:35] <miketaylr> don't think readyonly applies to checkbox
  808. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Huh, indeed. That seems... unfortunate.
  809. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> I guess @disabled does the job?
  810. # [22:35] <miketaylr> looks like it
  811. # [22:36] <bfrohs> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-input-element-attributes.html#attr-input-readonly (and see 'immutable')
  812. # [22:36] <bfrohs> Disabled doesn't pass the values in $_POST though, correct?
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  814. # [22:36] <TabAtkins> Ah, yup, a checkbox being immutable does indeed imply that you shoudln't be able to alter its checkedness.
  815. # [22:36] <miketaylr> i was looking at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-input-element.html#input-type-attr-summary
  816. # [22:37] <bfrohs> miketaylr: Well, isn't that nice. *disappointed*
  817. # [22:37] <miketaylr> :'(
  818. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Is there any other way to make a checkbox immutable?
  819. # [22:39] <bfrohs> Other than 'disabled', I can't find anything
  820. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> Ah, and the checkbox state specifically says that @readonly doesn't apply and shouldn't be specified.
  821. # [22:40] <bfrohs> So, instead of 'readonly', change the type to 'hidden' and set the value that way, eh?
  822. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> It doesn't appear that 'disabled' makes an element immutable, though. It just prevents clicks from being dispatched.
  823. # [22:40] <bfrohs> "When an input element is disabled, it is immutable."
  824. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Dang it, why isn't that in the description of @disabled?
  825. # [22:41] <bfrohs> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-input-element.html#concept-input-immutable
  826. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Specifically, it's not in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#attr-fe-disabled
  827. # [22:41] <bfrohs> That's where I'm quoting, if you want it
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  829. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> Imma send an email requesting that checkboxes be readonly-able.
  830. # [22:42] <bfrohs> Awesome :)
  831. # [22:45] <bfrohs> Also, was there a reason why @readonly isn't included in fieldset, but @disabled was?
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  833. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> I guess people don't usually make entire blocks of inputs switch from readonly to not, but they *do* enable/disable whole blocks of inputs.
  834. # [22:47] <bfrohs> Well, it would apply to a fieldset of radiobuttons (or checkboxes)... assuming both of these end up getting @readonly added
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  842. # [23:01] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: Came across this while looking up something else.. but applies to our conversation from earlier - http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2005-August/004621.html (see last paragraph)
  843. # [23:04] <bfrohs> Looks like it just died off (in that thread, at least)
  844. # [23:04] <heycam> Hixie, when you're back: I've got http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11267
  845. # [23:04] <heycam> Hixie, but I haven't written down who requested that. (I'm guess it's you though.)
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  847. # [23:05] <heycam> Hixie, so if it was you, I wanted to see if that's still something you want. I'm not sure why just relying on SOP isn't enough there.
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  853. # [23:17] <Hixie> heycam: not me, i've no idea what it means for something to be "configurable"
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  855. # [23:17] <Hixie> heycam: having said that, note that the same-origin policy doesn't apply to (e.g.) foreignWindow.location.href
  856. # [23:18] <Hixie> or at least, not to its setter
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  858. # [23:18] <Hixie> so if you could change location to point to something else, maybe that's a problem?
  859. # [23:18] <Hixie> i dunno
  860. # [23:18] <Hixie> depends what it means for something to be configurable
  861. # [23:19] <heycam> Hixie, [[Configurable]] in the ES5 sense
  862. # [23:19] <heycam> so, you can change anything about the property
  863. # [23:20] <heycam> remember though that IDL attributes get turned into accessor properties with a getter but not setter, with ES5
  864. # [23:20] <heycam> so these attributes are effectively read only; assigning to them will get ignored (or throw, in strict mode)
  865. # [23:20] <heycam> but you could still reconfigure the property to be something else
  866. # [23:21] <heycam> Hixie, so I didn't know you could grab foreignWindow.location.href
  867. # [23:21] <heycam> is that written down in the spec?
  868. # [23:21] <heycam> (and is there a list somewhere of which properties can be accessed cross origin like that?)
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  873. # [23:34] <Hixie> heycam: the spec assumes you can grab anything, and then blocks out certain attributes. see e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#security-document (and there's another one for Window)
  874. # [23:34] <Hixie> (that one for document is what blocks everything on Document)
  875. # [23:34] <Hixie> hm, technically it only blocks HTMLDocument, i should fix that
  876. # [23:35] <Hixie> bbiab
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  878. # [23:35] <heycam> k
  879. # [23:36] <heycam> Hixie, and I guess that covers everything, because all you can get to is the Window/Document of another window (with contentWindow/contentDocument)?
  880. # [23:37] <Hixie> that's the theory
  881. # [23:37] <Hixie> ttyl
  882. # [23:37] <heycam> ttyl
  883. # [23:38] * heycam will file a bug around there...
  884. # [23:38] <dglazkov> Hixie: have a component model question for you
  885. # [23:40] <dglazkov> Hixie: suppose I am in shadow content, traversing up the parentNode()
  886. # [23:40] <dglazkov> Hixie: what's the last non-null parentNode() should I see?
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  899. # Session Close: Thu Apr 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)