/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 07 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:11] <nessy> Hixie: say, when are you going to make changes to the multitrack stuff?
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  27. # [01:04] <Lachy> does anyone know which glyph Chrome is using for the disclosure triangles in their <details> implementation?
  28. # [01:04] <Lachy> or does anyone know how to find out?
  29. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: ^^^
  30. # [01:06] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:8003:200:221:6aff:fe6e:d10)
  31. # [01:07] <Lachy> at a guess, I'd say it's either the U+25B8 (▸) BLACK RIGHT-POINTING SMALL TRIANGLE or U+25B6 (▶) BLACK RIGHT-POINTING TRIANGLE (and the matching left/down-pointing triangles),
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  33. # [01:08] <jamesr> Lachy: copy-paste it into a JS string, query the codepoint?
  34. # [01:09] <dglazkov> Lachy: it's painted straight up: http://google.com/codesearch/p#OAMlx_jo-ck/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/WebCore/rendering/RenderDetailsMarker.cpp&l=190
  35. # [01:09] <jamesr> ah it's not a glyph
  36. # [01:09] <dglazkov> Lachy: the details/summary implementation is a total hack at this point
  37. # [01:09] <dglazkov> Lachy: please don't feel encouraged to use it as an example :)
  38. # [01:10] <Lachy> dglazkov, oh, trust me, we've been having fun breaking it. We know how bad it is
  39. # [01:10] <dglazkov> Lachy: follow this bug https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=56967
  40. # [01:12] <Lachy> thanks
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  42. # [01:13] <Lachy> dglazkov, we want to use a character glyph, so we can do the styles with display: list-item; (as discussed in the mail I sent yesterday to whatwg)
  43. # [01:14] <dglazkov> Lachy: that seems like a path to fail. Why?
  44. # [01:14] <Lachy> because of all the options, it's the only one that actually works and meets all the requirements we had
  45. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: I think it's the best solution, as the disclosure widget acts exactly like ::marker
  46. # [01:14] <Lachy> dglazkov, read that mail I sent. It explains everything
  47. # [01:14] <dglazkov> Lachy: ok
  48. # [01:15] <dglazkov> can I have a 1-minute summary why it can't be a div?
  49. # [01:15] <dglazkov> :)
  50. # [01:16] <dglazkov> I'd rather have a nice block to play with
  51. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> Becasue the disclosure triangle acts exactly like a ::marker.
  52. # [01:16] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  54. # [01:17] <Lachy> the shadow dom approach that inserts block elemtns around the summary and content interferes too much with styles.
  55. # [01:17] <Lachy> if you try to position the disclosure triangle box with negative margins, then it interferes with :the :before pseudo-element.
  56. # [01:18] <Lachy> if authors apply display: inline; to summary and details when they contain block boxes in the shadow dom, then it doesn't work.
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  58. # [01:19] <Lachy> If they have <details><summary>Test</summary><div>Content</div></details> with the styles details { display: table; } summary, div { display: table-cell; }, it doesn't work because of the way the layout table-* boxes are generated
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  64. # [01:21] <dglazkov> Lachy: why do we worry about letting the authors shoot themselves in the foot? :)
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  66. # [01:21] <Lachy> dglazkov, we don't want to end up with the same situation we have with fieldset and legend, where restyling is troublesome
  67. # [01:22] <Lachy> plus, display: list-item; lets authors use list-style-type and list-style-image to render custom icons, or to remove it entirely.
  68. # [01:23] <Lachy> if you try to do it with bindings, then you have to create a new special pseudo-element to handle it
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  70. # [01:23] <dglazkov> I fully intend to introduce a new pseudo-element for details marker, and probably the box around
  71. # [01:24] <erlehmann> for great justice!
  72. # [01:24] <Lachy> trust me, we tried that, and it won't work. It's far too fragile.
  73. # [01:24] <erlehmann> fieldset and legend is awful. :<
  74. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Problem: making the triangle manually as a pseudo-element doesn't seem possible, as it should act like a child of summary. We don't have any way with XBL2 or Components to insert a shadow into a light node.
  75. # [01:25] <Lachy> TabAtkins, what are these Components you're referring to?
  76. # [01:25] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  77. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> The "Web Component Model" thing dglazkov brought up on webapps a few weeks ago - our attempt to tweak XBL2 to be better.
  78. # [01:25] <Lachy> and what do you mean by a "light node"?
  79. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> light node = normal dom node
  80. # [01:26] <TabAtkins> (as opposed to shadow nodes, which live in the shadow tree)
  81. # [01:27] <dglazkov> Lachy: fragile, like freedom starts with an f
  82. # [01:28] <dglazkov> :P
  83. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> The structure you want is <details><summary><::shadow(disclosure) />[summary contents]</summary><::shadow(content)>[other contents]</::shadow(content)></details>
  84. # [01:29] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: see bug, I have a diagram there
  85. # [01:30] <dglazkov> Lachy: with component model arriving soon, the notion of encapsulated DOM with hooks (pseudo-elements) to tweak it is something I hope will become commonplace
  86. # [01:30] <Lachy> TabAtkins, that breaks the ::before case
  87. # [01:30] <TabAtkins> No, that's not the structure you want. That structure means that styles that target "summary" don't hit what you want.
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  89. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> At least, I assume that you want the disclosure to appear to be inside the <summary>.
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  92. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> Such that if I do "summary { border: 1px solid black; }", the border encloses the triangle too.
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  94. # [01:34] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: ah, so summary has a shadow that contains the marker. Sure..
  95. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, hm. Yeah, defining <summary> as having a shadow itself would work, I guess.
  96. # [01:35] <TabAtkins> Assuming we get the right behavior with ::before.
  97. # [01:35] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: except we'll have to make sure it doesn't show up on a free-standing or the summary that isn't in the right slot
  98. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> That shouldn't be hard, I guess - you can target things like "details > summary:not(:first-of-type)::disclosure { display: none; }"
  99. # [01:36] <Lachy> TabAtkins, I had an experiment using <summary><::disclosure></::dislosure><::before></::before>[summary text]</summary>, where the disclosure was positioned with negative margin and compensating padding added to the summary element.
  100. # [01:37] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: sounds good
  101. # [01:37] <Lachy> but that caused an unexpected problem when the page has a space at the beginning of the summary text. i.e. <summary>Example</summary> vs. <summary> Example</summary>
  102. # [01:37] * dglazkov imagines the world where new interactive tags are spec'd as component model implementations.
  103. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Hm, what was the problem?
  104. # [01:38] <Lachy> The first would render like: ▸Example, the latter would render with a space like "▸ Example"
  105. # [01:38] <Lachy> In fact, try that in Chrome's implementation. It has the same problem now
  106. # [01:38] <Lachy> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdetails%3E%3Csummary%3EExample%3C%2Fsummary%3E%3C%2Fdetails%3E%0A%3Cdetails%3E%3Csummary%3E%20Example%3C%2Fsummary%3E%3C%2Fdetails%3E%0A
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  108. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> Hm, why doesn't that cause a similar problem with display:list-item? The white-space collapsing should be identical, right?
  109. # [01:39] <Lachy> that problem doesn't occur with the list-item ::marker, which is has list-style-position: outside;
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  114. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> What part of that causes the different whitespace behavior?
  115. # [01:43] <Lachy> actually, it doesn't occur with ::marker even list-style-position: inside;. But I don't know any way to achieve that when you're using DOM nodes to indirectly create layout boxes
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  117. # [01:44] <Lachy> TabAtkins, because it's exactly like this http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3Ep%3A%3Abefore%20%7B%20content%3A%20%22x%22%3B%20%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3ETest%3Cp%3E%20Test
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  119. # [01:45] <Lachy> ::marker has special handling here
  120. # [01:46] <Lachy> or, rather, it would have to if it were implemented by anyone.
  121. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Damn, I didn't realize it did. Well, when l-s-p is 'outside' or 'hanging', it's abspos, so the problem doesn't occur. Only 'inside' needs the special behavior, which I now need to go figure out and spec, dammit.
  122. # [01:47] <Lachy> :-)
  123. # [01:47] * dglazkov is now known as dglazkov|away
  124. # [01:47] * TabAtkins files an issue on the spec.
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  130. # [01:58] <Lachy> TabAtkins, are you really defining the handling of 'hanging' and 'outside' in terms of absolute positioning? How does that work, without having the li element set to position: relative; to establish a containing block?
  131. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> Since I control the spec, I can control the static position, and set it appropriately so you don't need the list-item to be a positioning container.
  132. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> As long as top/r/b/l are all 'auto', it works just fine.
  133. # [01:59] <Lachy> 'auto' on which element?
  134. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> The ::marker
  135. # [01:59] <Lachy> oh
  136. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> Normally the static position of an abspos is the position of its placeholder (the 0x0 inline box left behind in its original box-tree position), but l-s-p alters that static position for ::marker.
  137. # [02:01] <Lachy> ok
  138. # [02:01] <Lachy> what do the terms '"end" edge', '"start" edge' and '"over" edge' mean? They're not defined
  139. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> writing-dependent box-model terms, defined in Writing Modes.
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  141. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> I'll link them properly at some point, but haven't bothered to do so yet.
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  147. # [02:08] <Lachy> TabAtkins, it would be nice to have an illustration showing the difference between hanging and outside. I just don't get it. The definitions are confusing
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  149. # [02:10] <TabAtkins> There's a good diagram on the mailing list, which I'll include. Basically, 'hanging' attaches the marker to the text (respecting text-align, rtl, etc), while 'outside' attaches it to the list-item's box instead.
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  151. # [02:10] <TabAtkins> The main distinction is just that, in a list with mixed-direction items (that is, some items are ltr and some are rtl), 'outside' will keep all the markers on a consistent side.
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  153. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> (determined by the parent's directionality, rather than the list item's)
  154. # [02:11] <Lachy> link to the diagram?
  155. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> Sure, one sec.
  156. # [02:13] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0522.html
  157. # [02:16] <Lachy> oh, it looks like Firefox's implementation of 'outside' is more like 'hanging' Chrome and Opera agree with the diagram, I think.
  158. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> Yes, FF does what I define as 'hanging'. And I thought that one other browser did, too.
  159. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> I know that IE does what I define as 'outside'.
  160. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> I was pretty sure the rendering engines were split 2 and 2.
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  162. # [02:18] <Lachy> ok, then I assume there's no compat problems with defining it that way.
  163. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  164. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> At least, in general. It's possible (/likely) my precise definitions aren't quite compatible yet.
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  194. # [03:57] <Hixie> dglazkov|away: the <template>, if it's like XBL
  195. # [03:57] <Hixie> nessy: friday or early next week (had to take the week off for family reasons unfortunately)
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  297. # [08:42] <hsivonen> It's quite sad how the HTML.next wiki page doesn't include use cases
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  308. # [09:32] <kennyluck> What is the story behind that page?
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  315. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: which page?
  316. # [09:49] <kennyluck> The HTML.next wiki page.
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  318. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=HTML.next&action=history
  319. # [09:52] <kennyluck> lol. I mean, what makes people suddenly interested in working on this page? A WG decision?
  320. # [09:54] <krijnh> -_-
  321. # [09:55] <Lachy> kennyluck, I think the idea is to get a list of features to include in the new charter for the HTMLWG.
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  323. # [09:56] <kennyluck> Lachy, I see.
  324. # [09:56] <Lachy> it's a process thing. I guess, since the group is only chartered to work on HTML5. After it goes to last call, they can technically only maintain that and realted specs and can't start on HTML6.
  325. # [09:57] <othermaciej> the actual benefit of writing down ideas is:
  326. # [09:57] <othermaciej> (a) medium-term, it will help us ensure that the right things are in our next charter
  327. # [09:57] <othermaciej> (b) short-term, the AC is interested in hearing what we might be up to next
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  329. # [10:03] <hsivonen> that the AC is involved in deciding on the next features sounds suspicious
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  332. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I just took the list of specs I had at http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Specs and moved it to http://www.w3.org/wiki/BrowserTechnologies
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  335. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> looks like I may be going to Perth at the end of July for a couple days
  336. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> so would be great to plan to meet up with any #whatwg folk who might be there
  337. # [10:11] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Hark at the globetrotting lifestyle
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  339. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> more like globetottering
  340. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> in my case
  341. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> globestumbling
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  345. # [10:14] <gsnedders> hsivonen: does the charter not normally "suggest" or "encourage" certain features to be looked at? Surely the AC doing that is nothing unusual?
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  348. # [10:16] <hsivonen> gsnedders: charters tend to be higher level than individual features
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  350. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so were are at the point in discussions about the common testing framework where scope creep has started to in appear
  351. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> in that the way I attempted to scope it was relatively well-bounded
  352. # [10:17] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents." — is that not particuarly specific?
  353. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: a common framework for testing features/technologies in browsers
  354. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> I am now getting feedback about that being too restrictive
  355. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> and that the scope needs to include testing authoring tools, media players, "evaluation tools", and AT
  356. # [10:19] <hsivonen> gsnedders: not as specific as most things on the HTML.next page
  357. # [10:20] <hsivonen> gsnedders: note that those points name broad sets of features (or syntax, rather) developed in other WGs
  358. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> jgraham: how were are supposed to come up with a common framework for testing an unbounded set of applications, I don't know
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  360. # [10:20] <hsivonen> as opposed to individual potential HTML features like marking up semantic for foo
  361. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> *unbounded set of completely disparate classes of applications
  362. # [10:21] <hsivonen> gsnedders: in general, it seems that the W3C chartering process doesn't really fit the model of writing up specs as stuff that multiple implementors want to implement comes up
  363. # [10:24] <hsivonen> gsnedders: also, the previous process managing to put RDFa and ITS in the charter counts as suspicious to me
  364. # [10:25] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That isn't going to happen
  365. # [10:25] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Is that not an inevitable consquence of the W3C trying to cope with what all members want, not just members who want to directly implement a spec?
  366. # [10:25] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Those things need to be tested, but there will be specific requirments for testing them
  367. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> right
  368. # [10:26] <hsivonen> gsnedders: probably
  369. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> jgraham: a good example I can think of that maybe I already mentioned to you is the case of testing Web Nofications
  370. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> we really can't test what the platform behavior outside of the browser is
  371. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> at least not in an automated way
  372. # [10:27] <jgraham> Indeed
  373. # [10:27] <jgraham> AT is an even better example
  374. # [10:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Arguably what we (as browser vendors) should have done is push our opinions on other specs that we aren't interested implementing, and play the same game
  375. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> for notifications, all that we can really test is that the notification object gets created and the show event gets fired at it
  376. # [10:28] <jgraham> At least there is no way I know to interrogate AT about what they are doing
  377. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah
  378. # [10:29] <jgraham> Yeah, notifications allow you to test the API but not that a notification is ever shown
  379. # [10:29] <jgraham> Except manually
  380. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> yeah, but you can't even really test that
  381. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> because that part is unspecified
  382. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> by design
  383. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> it is implementation-specific
  384. # [10:30] <jgraham> Hmm, is it not specified that a browser that implements the API has to notify the user in some way?
  385. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> sure
  386. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> but "in some way" is not something that can be tested very rigorously…
  387. # [10:30] <jgraham> Right, so you can write a test that says "you shopuld be notified that 'the test has PASSed'"
  388. # [10:30] <jgraham> or something
  389. # [10:31] <jgraham> That's the kind of test we have for browser features that can't be tested in an automated way
  390. # [10:31] <jgraham> and it really sucks
  391. # [10:31] <jgraham> (so we always try to increase the scope of what can be automated)
  392. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> yeah, I'm just saying that there can be gray areas where it's hard to know if it's if the notification is actually being shown "properly" or whatever
  393. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> because it's not measurable
  394. # [10:32] <jgraham> Indeed, this type of test sucks
  395. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> and what is proper/expected depends on the platform/environment
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  397. # [10:33] <jgraham> Yeah, like I said it sucks. It's not that uncommon though
  398. # [10:35] <jgraham> Anyway I agree with your original point. The scope creep is unhelpful because it leaves an unworkable set of requirments
  399. # [10:35] <jgraham> I am all in favour of testing AT and so on, but that needs a dedicated effort
  400. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> I think the way to deal with this is to concede to scope the overall "common testing effort" a bit more broadly, but then have smaller units within that
  401. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> and make one of those a "browser testing" unit
  402. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> and then we work on that part just as we have been
  403. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> and whatever units of the rest of it then along however else others involved with those care to take them
  404. # [10:47] <jgraham> Yeah, that sounds like a viable way to solve the problem
  405. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> so I will pitch that to plh
  406. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> so much depends on plh
  407. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> he is like a red wheelbarrow glazed with rain water
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  412. # [10:55] <jgraham> You are going to need to explain that simile
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  415. # [10:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't think they necessarily want to be involved - they just want to be informed (at this point); that being said, the charter has to be approved by the AC
  416. # [10:57] <othermaciej> you are right that the HTML.next page is not at charter-like granularity right now
  417. # [11:01] <othermaciej> for charter purposes, I'm sure there will be interest in enhancing and extending all the existing new features, though I doubt people know exactly how at this point
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  419. # [11:06] <jgraham> The main problem with the wiki page (apart from the underlyting notion of a versioned approacch to a continuously evolving technology) seems to be that it is a bizzare mix of the low-level and the high level
  420. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> it's a wiki…
  421. # [11:09] <othermaciej> level mixing is fine for a brainstorming exercise
  422. # [11:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Right, but I assume removing other people's contributions on the basis that they are micro-suggestions won't go down well
  423. # [11:09] <othermaciej> ideas that are too small to be worth calling out may turn out to coalesce into themes
  424. # [11:09] <othermaciej> or it would even be fine to predict the theme and make a category for, e.g., "further form control enhancements"
  425. # [11:09] <othermaciej> or "additional semantic markup elements"
  426. # [11:11] <othermaciej> deleting lines from com.apple.WebProcess.sb makes me feel like a good person
  427. # [11:12] <othermaciej> (I guess that is off-topic for this channel)
  428. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, but moving them / reorganizing in a way to un-mix them is usually OK
  429. # [11:13] <jgraham> othermaciej: not really, see /topic
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  432. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> what is the current cutting edge in CSS?
  433. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> I know about gradients, animations, and transitions
  434. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> and variables
  435. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> and regions?
  436. # [11:17] <Workshiva> inline-block
  437. # [11:17] <kennyluck> and mixins, I guess. Not yet adopted by CSS WG, though.
  438. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> ah
  439. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> Workshiva, kennyluck - thanks
  440. # [11:18] <Workshiva> I guess flex-box is starting to live?
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  442. # [11:19] <hsivonen> I wonder where Opera and Microsoft are at as far as flexbox impl goes
  443. # [11:19] * hsivonen is eager to get cross-browser flexbox
  444. # [11:19] <Workshiva> I want to be excited about it, but I feel like I'd be setting myself up for disappointment
  445. # [11:19] <Workshiva> :)
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  448. # [11:24] <jgraham> I am English and therefore crave disappointment
  449. # [11:25] <Workshiva> That certainly explains the biscuits
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  456. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> Workshiva: were you joking about inline-block?
  457. # [11:35] <Workshiva> Yes
  458. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> oh
  459. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> shows how much I know about CSS…
  460. # [11:41] <kennyluck> Well, the fact that <i> <b> are in HTML5 made me think I know nothing about HTML5 too.
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  463. # [11:46] <zcorpan> welcome jeppson
  464. # [11:46] <gsnedders> Oh noes, not jeppson :o
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  467. # [11:50] <hsivonen> what are the use cases for http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/system-info/ ?
  468. # [11:51] <othermaciej> that URL has /dap/ in it, so I'm not sure why you'd ask such a naive question :-)
  469. # [11:52] * MikeSmith wonders where things currently stand as far as getting agreement about the "Disallowing modal dialogs during unload events" case
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  473. # [12:02] <jgraham> jeppson: (FWIW your email to whatwg basically reads "+1", which is somewhat discouraged)
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  478. # [12:12] <Lachy> given the markup <details>before<summary>summary</summary></details> with the style details::first-letter { color: blue; }, with the way the layout boxes are re-ordered, am I right in believing that the 's' in the summary should be blue, not the 'b'?
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  480. # [12:13] <Lachy> TabAtkins, dglazkov|away, ^ (btw, that's another case that chromium fails to handle)
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  488. # [13:06] <jeppson> jgraham: ok... thanks - didn't know that
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  528. # [15:53] <erlehmann> for <details>, the character U+25C2 (◂) BLACK LEFT-POINTING SMALL TRIANGLE will only be used in LTR settings, amiright?
  529. # [15:53] <erlehmann> RTL settings, sorry. still sleepy.
  530. # [15:53] <jgraham> Yes
  531. # [15:53] <erlehmann> thx
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  560. # [17:24] * hsivonen needs a worse server config for testing
  561. # [17:25] <TabAtkins> Lachy: Pretty sure the answer is yes.
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  563. # [17:26] <Lachy> TabAtkins, yeah, thought so. That's what I told our developer, who's having trouble with the issue.
  564. # [17:26] <hsivonen> actually, I need a better server config
  565. # [17:26] <Lachy> it seems we're going to have a known bug where ::first-letter will style the wrong letter in that case
  566. # [17:26] * hsivonen is unhappy about Ubuntu's Apache defaults
  567. # [17:26] <Lachy> but it's an edge case with an invalid document, so not too concerning
  568. # [17:27] <Lachy> hsivonen, what's wrong with them?
  569. # [17:27] <hsivonen> my AddType application/xml xml isn't taking effect
  570. # [17:27] <hsivonen> there has to be another AddType somewhere saying that xml is text/xml; charset=UTF-8
  571. # [17:28] <Lachy> does it work for other file extensions?
  572. # [17:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ForceType, maybe
  573. # [17:28] <Lachy> and are you doing that in .htaccess?
  574. # [17:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: it seems to
  575. # [17:28] <hsivonen> I'm doing it in a config file for the virtual host
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  577. # [17:30] <hsivonen> well, *this* is odd
  578. # [17:30] <hsivonen> the default config seems to say application/xml, too
  579. # [17:31] <hsivonen> oh. great. I have an ancient .htaccess file that I had forgotten about
  580. # [17:32] <bfrohs> And here you are ganging up on poor, little Ubuntu when it hadn't even done anything :P
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  585. # [17:34] * hsivonen wonders where the X-Pad: avoid browser bug header comes from
  586. # [17:35] <hsivonen> "Apache send this header to deal with a bug with Netscape versions 2 through 4.0b2."
  587. # [17:35] <hsivonen> great
  588. # [17:35] <zewt> haha
  589. # [17:36] <zewt> there's legacy compatibility and then there's legacy compatibility
  590. # [17:36] <wilhelm_> Beautiful.
  591. # [17:37] <hsivonen> "it only shows up if there's a chance the 256th or 257th byte of a response is a newline."
  592. # [17:38] <erlehmann> the web is a mess. and we just need to fix it!
  593. # [17:38] <erlehmann> (cue dr. horrible theme song)
  594. # [17:39] <hsivonen> well, looks like even Roy's project does works around bugs at the other end of the HTTP pipe
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  596. # [17:41] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  597. # [17:43] <wilhelm_> I suppose that can be considered payback.
  598. # [17:45] <Lachy> what possible bug could Netscape have had the only showed up with a new line as the 256/257th character?
  599. # [17:45] <TabAtkins> Assuming end of response, probably.
  600. # [17:46] <Lachy> yeah, but that seems very odd
  601. # [17:46] <TabAtkins> That's bugs for ya'.
  602. # [17:46] <Lachy> I'm not even sure you one could make such a specific mistake by accident
  603. # [17:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: 256 is a natural buffer length
  604. # [17:46] <zewt> reading some of the webgl spec, at least in the "diff vs. opengl" version, one thing I like about it: it gives rationale for things
  605. # [17:47] <erlehmann> >All media elements have an autoplaying flag, which must begin in the true state
  606. # [17:47] <erlehmann> What was the rationale for that?
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  608. # [17:50] <erlehmann> hue hue hue https://twitter.com/timpritlove/statuses/56016662058631168
  609. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> Wait, @autoplay is a binary attribute. How do you turn it off if it's on by default? I can't omit the tag any harder!
  610. # [17:51] <Lachy> TabAtkins, it's not on by default. You omit the attribute and it won't autoplay
  611. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> Hm, then. I need the context around erlehmann's quote, then.
  612. # [17:52] <Lachy> I'm not sure what bug that tweet might be referring to, nor whcih browser
  613. # [17:52] <Lachy> https://twitter.com/timpritlove/status/56018111463301120
  614. # [17:52] <Lachy> that makes more sense
  615. # [17:53] <zewt> autoplaying flag != autoplay attribute, presumably
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  617. # [17:53] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i only found it at the beginning of media.load() in the spec.
  618. # [17:53] <Lachy> zewt, see the other tweet. He meant preload
  619. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> Oh, yeah, that makes much more sense. The answer is obvious, too - preloading is user-friendly, obviously.
  620. # [17:54] <erlehmann> timpritlove is an admitted apple fanboy, so i'd suggest osx/ios safari?
  621. # [17:54] <erlehmann> better ask him. i'm not on the twitter.
  622. # [17:54] <erlehmann> zewt, thx.
  623. # [17:54] <erlehmann> oh, Lachy cleared it up.
  624. # [17:54] <erlehmann> everything is fine :)
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  630. # [17:59] <Lachy> TabAtkins, if you file a bug on gecko about that list-item quirk, CC me on it
  631. # [18:01] <TabAtkins> Will do.
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  633. # [18:03] <Philip`> "old pages won't use <details>, and new pages shouldn't use quirks mode"
  634. # [18:03] <Philip`> Is there any evidence that new pages won't use quirks mode in roughly the same proportion as old pages?
  635. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> No, but then they're quirky. Shrug.
  636. # [18:04] <Philip`> (where "old" means after the HTML4/XHTML1 doctypes became ubiquitous so people didn't have the excuse of never having heard of a doctype)
  637. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Wait, yes, possibly - the very fact that the doctype is so much harder to get wrong than before.
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  642. # [18:07] <nimbupani> hey everyone I have a question, Opera currently only does constraint validation on elements are used to construct the form data set.
  643. # [18:08] <nimbupani> but gecko and webkit do not do this check to do constraint validation, which would be the correct behaviour?
  644. # [18:08] <nimbupani> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#concept-fe-disabled on the surface seems to suggest gecko/webkit
  645. # [18:08] <smaug____> volkmar_: ^^^
  646. # [18:08] <nimbupani> but http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#barred-from-constraint-validation seems to lead to a maze of word puzzles.
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  649. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> jgraham: What was the tag you suggested for subheadings?
  650. # [18:12] <jgraham> TabAtkins: <subhead>
  651. # [18:12] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11731
  652. # [18:15] <Lachy> jgraham, is that the one you suggested to nest inside the <h1>?
  653. # [18:16] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes
  654. # [18:18] <Lachy> right. I didn't like that suggestion. It overly complicates the markup, and links the two elements together in unfortunate ways
  655. # [18:18] <Lachy> e.g. for applying backgrounds or borders or whatever to the h1, which aren't intended to apply to the subheading
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  657. # [18:19] <Lachy> even for colors, it creates the problem that authors have to explicitly undo the applied styles
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  667. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> Damn Dr. Olaf and his trolling! I'll be strong and not respond, but it's *so hard*.
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  670. # [18:38] <Lachy> TabAtkins, which list?
  671. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> www-style, on the Lengths thread.
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  673. # [18:46] <jgraham> Hmm, so there is a difference between <script></script> and <script> </script> if I append data to the script?
  674. # [18:46] <Lachy> TabAtkins, in which spec does it define the px to be 0.75pt?
  675. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Values and Units
  676. # [18:46] <Lachy> this one? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/
  677. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  678. # [18:47] <Lachy> does it define it indirectly somehow? it looks like it's still defining it in terms of angular measurement
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  681. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Ah, sorry, V&U hasnt' been properly updated. 2.1 has the right deffinition.
  682. # [18:49] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  683. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#length-units , scroll down a bit
  684. # [18:50] <Lachy> oh, I see. CSS3 hasn't been updated to match yet
  685. # [18:50] <volkmar_> nimbupani: what do you mean exactly?
  686. # [18:50] <volkmar_> i mean, disabled elemnets shouldn't be validated nor elemnets barred from constrant validation
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  688. # [18:51] <nimbupani> volkmar_: http://jsfiddle.net/nimbu/P7Fa8/2/ does validation in gecko and webkit but not on opera.
  689. # [18:52] <nimbupani> mainly coz Opera considers input elements without name attr as not "submittable" element.
  690. # [18:52] <nimbupani> and no form validation is done on elements that are not "submittable"
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  692. # [18:54] <volkmar_> oh...
  693. # [18:54] <volkmar_> nimbupani: Opera's behavior might make sense but as far as I know, it's not following the current spces
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  695. # [18:54] <nimbupani> volkmar_: internally the view is that it*is* following specs
  696. # [18:55] <nimbupani> because of some convoluted wording in constraint validation docs
  697. # [18:55] <volkmar_> nimbupani: see 4.10.21.2: you should run constraint validation check onall submittable elements
  698. # [18:56] <volkmar_> and submittable doesn't mean that is submit but that has a type that allow submission
  699. # [18:57] <nimbupani> yeah thats what i thought too, but annevk suggested it meant it had to submit.
  700. # [18:57] <nimbupani> but he is now in South America, so probably I can safely pretend he didnt say it.
  701. # [18:58] <volkmar_> nimbupani: gotta run out of wifi
  702. # [18:58] <nimbupani> kay. thanks volkmar_
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  736. # [19:54] <Hixie> heh, Lachy suggested display:transparent
  737. # [20:00] <Lachy> yes, I did.
  738. # [20:00] <Lachy> has that been suggested before? It seemed vaguely familiar when I thought of it, but can't remember anything specific
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  742. # [20:09] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah, several times. It's definitely needed.
  743. # [20:09] <Hixie> Lachy: like many things that have been proposed and gone nowhere fast in that wg
  744. # [20:10] <zewt> (transparent to do what?)
  745. # [20:10] <othermaciej> what's the purpose of display:transparent?
  746. # [20:10] <othermaciej> would that act like visibility:hidden?
  747. # [20:11] <zewt> (that was my first thought)
  748. # [20:12] <Lachy> othermaciej, no. It means that there is no layout box generated for the element, and all it's descendants are rendered as though they were descendants of its parent element
  749. # [20:12] <Hixie> 'transparent' may not be the best keyword, dunno what would be better
  750. # [20:13] <othermaciej> I see
  751. # [20:13] <othermaciej> that seems useful, but it definitely did make me think of visual transparency
  752. # [20:14] <Lachy> so, e.g. <div><div style="display: transparent"><p>x</p></div></div> renders exactly the same as would <div><p>x</p></div>
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  754. # [20:14] <zewt> so basically, it acts as a grouping mechanism for DOM nodes, without the rendering side-effects?
  755. # [20:14] <Lachy> maybe display: no-box; would be better
  756. # [20:14] <Lachy> zewt, yes
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  758. # [20:15] <Lachy> it only affects layout. Other inherited properies, like colours, etc. are inherited. Borders and backgrounds would not apply to the element though
  759. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> What are the use-cases?
  760. # [20:16] <Lachy> AryehGregor, read the mail
  761. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> Which list?
  762. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> Oh, the huge one to whatwg about details?
  763. # [20:17] <Lachy> yeah, that one, or the more recent one on www-style
  764. # [20:17] <Lachy> www-style is shorter
  765. # [20:18] <Lachy> but in the whatwg one, you can skip down to where it says "== Proposed Solutions ==" and find the subsection about hiding and showing content
  766. # [20:18] <zewt> i assume things like :first-child would be unaffected?
  767. # [20:18] <zewt> (that is, do the same as any other display mode)
  768. # [20:18] <Lachy> yes
  769. # [20:18] <Lachy> hmm, perhaps ::first-letter might be affected
  770. # [20:19] <Lachy> in fact, I don't think any pseudo-elements would work on it
  771. # [20:19] <Lachy> I must go though. back later tonight
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  773. # [20:21] <othermaciej> display: child-nodes;
  774. # [20:21] <othermaciej> (ok, enough bike shedding)
  775. # [20:21] <zewt> heh
  776. # [20:22] <zewt> well, getting the proposed name right is a shortcut past a lot of what-does-it-do
  777. # [20:24] <Lachy> othermaciej, please bikeshet on the list where it is more appreciated :-)
  778. # [20:24] <Lachy> bikeshed
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  817. # [22:17] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I think you just came close to coining a new term
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  855. # [23:36] * Quits: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  856. # [23:36] * Joins: FastJack (~fastjack@dumpstr.net)
  857. # [23:39] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@2620:101:8003:300:226:82ff:fec1:ac85) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  858. # [23:40] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  859. # [23:53] * Quits: svl (~me@200-54-133-252.static.tie.cl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  860. # Session Close: Fri Apr 08 00:00:00 2011

The end :)