/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 08 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [01:57] <dglazkov> monkey flies
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  37. # [02:10] <Philip`> Do monkey flies like a banana?
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  163. # [09:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: did you still need me to regen the spec? i flushed my edit out finally.
  164. # [09:04] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  165. # [09:04] <Hixie> though it looks like i'm getting conflicts or something
  166. # [09:04] <Hixie> an the w3c side
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  168. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> that's because I checked in some changes
  169. # [09:05] <Hixie> ah ok
  170. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> but please just overwrite them
  171. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> the changes were just stuff I needed for publishing the WD
  172. # [09:05] <Hixie> oh you just hard-psuhed it? k
  173. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
  174. # [09:05] <Hixie> that works too i guess!
  175. # [09:05] <Hixie> :-)
  176. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> :)
  177. # [09:06] <MikeSmith> anyway, there's no urgency on doing the regen -- I had just pinged you because I was prepping stuff for the WD publication
  178. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> but hey, before you do regen I guess we should flip the boilerplate back to ED
  179. # [09:07] <MikeSmith> so I will do that right now
  180. # [09:07] <Hixie> k
  181. # [09:07] * zcorpan intends to leave the html5-differences ED as saying WD
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  183. # [09:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I don't think you're supposed to do that…
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  185. # [09:09] <zcorpan> will something bad happen if i do?
  186. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> only to me
  187. # [09:10] <zcorpan> it's identical to the WD, i'll only make changes to it when the next publication is near
  188. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> hmm
  189. # [09:10] <MikeSmith> OK
  190. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> …until if/when plh or somebody tells me to change it
  191. # [09:11] <zcorpan> (it said WD before i edited it too)
  192. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
  193. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> but that wasn't totally intentional
  194. # [09:11] <zcorpan> let me know if somebody whines, i'll change it
  195. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hai
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  202. # [09:18] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i'm going to bed now, will fix the conflicts in the morning
  203. # [09:18] <MikeSmith> ok
  204. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> I'll have the boilerplate changes checked in by your morning
  205. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> nn
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  227. # [10:21] <hsivonen> another day, another RDFa advocacy namedropping debunked
  228. # [10:21] <zcorpan> lack of contact information or bug tracker, i'll whine here that http://checkmybrowser.appspot.com/index.html checks for 'manifest' in document.documentElement while the spec explicitly omits that IDL attribute
  229. # [10:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: whoa! manual tests
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  232. # [10:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: I wonder if it is even allowed to reply to the RDFa thing on the list
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  234. # [10:30] <jgraham> But it it is interesting to note that if the contention that RDFa will be mostly generated bt machines is true (and I note that HTML is mostly generated by machines but is still all kinds of crazy), it suggests that just using raw URIs is fine
  235. # [10:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: indeed
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  237. # [10:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: it is even more interesting considering that reasoning is supposed to be what RDF is all about
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  261. # [12:09] * zcorpan filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58129
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  263. # [12:16] <jgraham> I wonder if those google tests are useful tests or just test for support of things without checking if it works
  264. # [12:17] <jgraham> In the former case it would be nice if they would contribute to the appropriate testsuite
  265. # [12:26] <jgraham> Looks like there could be some useful stuff there
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  315. # [15:15] <miGlanz> hi guys, I have a question about WebSockets status
  316. # [15:16] <miGlanz> They were disabled in Firefox 4 and Opera because of security flaw in the protocol
  317. # [15:16] <jgraham> Yes, no
  318. # [15:16] <miGlanz> but mr Barth who described the vulnerability also proposed solution to the problem
  319. # [15:16] <jgraham> (I mean yes they were disabled, no I don't know of any timescales for implementation of the next version of the protocol)
  320. # [15:17] <jgraham> (which fixes the issue)
  321. # [15:17] <jgraham> (if that wasn't what you were going to say, please continue :)
  322. # [15:17] <miGlanz> so for now nobody knows when FF4 and Opera will support those, right?
  323. # [15:18] <jgraham> No
  324. # [15:18] <bga_> back to steel infinite iframe
  325. # [15:18] <bga_> :)
  326. # [15:18] <miGlanz> but in your opinion is it closer to 1 year or let's say 5 years?
  327. # [15:19] <jgraham> Closer to 1 year
  328. # [15:19] <jgraham> I hope
  329. # [15:19] <gsnedders> Some time within the next year, almost certainly
  330. # [15:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: That's youthful optimisim
  331. # [15:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hey, my birthday is in under two weeks. I'm getting older!
  332. # [15:21] <jgraham> There's a non-sequiter if ever I heard one
  333. # [15:21] <miGlanz> so one may simply use current Flash workaround and hope it gets native within reasonable timeframe
  334. # [15:21] <miGlanz> (of course, from what I understand, Flash solution is vulnerable too)
  335. # [15:22] <jgraham> Indeed.
  336. # [15:22] <Philip`> (I think you spelt secateur wrong)
  337. # [15:22] <miGlanz> OK, thanks guys, it doesn't sound great, but it's not that bad either
  338. # [15:26] <bfrohs> (or sequitur :P)
  339. # [15:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: He's no use whatsoever for pruning
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  341. # [15:29] <gsnedders> :P
  342. # [15:34] <hsivonen> miGlanz: of course, Flash sockets can be used to exploit the same flaw in transparent proxies...
  343. # [15:39] <miGlanz> yes, I'm aware of this
  344. # [15:40] <miGlanz> hmm, but on the other hand, I'm curious why hasn't Google disabled WebSockets in Chrome yet?
  345. # [15:43] <hsivonen> dunno. maybe because it's no more dangerous than running with Flash.
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  356. # [16:18] <bga_> is it possible to call xhr.send(partialData) multi time? i want to send big amount of data streamed and using only one connection
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  370. # [16:55] <Philip`> "the HTML Working Group hereby adopts the "Defer to the Microformats community for cataloging HTML rel values" Proposal"
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  373. # [16:56] * Philip` objects to that proposal, on the basis that the word "cataloging" looks weird and ought to be spelt "cataloguing"
  374. # [16:57] <hsivonen> \o/
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  402. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Why are you spelling it "spelt"? It's spelled "spelled". Crazy irregular conjugations.
  403. # [18:05] * Quits: davve__ (~davve@83.218.67.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
  404. # [18:05] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: en-gb normally uses "spelt"
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  406. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> I repeat, "crazy irregular conjugations".
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  412. # [18:15] * bfrohs thinks someone needs to properly spec the English language
  413. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> I'll spec the 'Mrrican language.
  414. # [18:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-223-201.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: MikeSmith)
  415. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Sigh. This email I just sent has an average word length of, like, 8.
  416. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> When I can't be polite, I just turn technical. >_<
  417. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> /verbose
  418. # [18:21] * beowulf collides a wet Salmonidae with TabAtkins upper rostral area
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  476. # [20:26] <Philip`> "the HTML Working Group hereby adopts the "<u> should be conforming" Change Proposal"
  477. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> Sigh.
  478. # [20:26] <Philip`> "the HTML Working Group hereby adopts the "Consider inability to play at a given playback rate a hardware limitation and don't expose it via a dedicated API" Change Proposal"
  479. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Yay!
  480. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> (to "<u> should be conforming")
  481. # [20:28] * Joins: stevela_ (~stevela@74.125.59.65)
  482. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> I bet that would be the result.
  483. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Well, it woudl be weird to bet against yourself.
  484. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> No, it could have been that I thought I would lose but felt it necessary to try anyway just in case.
  485. # [20:30] * Quits: stevela_ (~stevela@74.125.59.65) (Client Quit)
  486. # [20:30] <Philip`> It's always good to bet against yourself, because either you're right or you win, so you win both ways
  487. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> On this one I was pretty sure I'd win, since the arguments against were vague and not supported by specific evidence or reasoning.
  488. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> You've got to know how to game the system. The chairs strongly favor specific arguments and reasoning, and tend not to like arguments that amount to simply making disputed assertions.
  489. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> So when I object, I always make sure to dispute everything that doesn't have specific evidence in its favor (assuming I actually disagree with it).
  490. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> ...every single argument in <u>'s favor here can be applied equally to <font>, as far as I can tell.
  491. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> No, I specifically addressed that.
  492. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> 1) <font> is less of a length savings, 2) it uses behavior that's not fully specified by CSS.
  493. # [20:34] <zewt> what hardware is there that might support audio without having the horsepower for simple resampling, anyway
  494. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Also, you don't have the argument of similarity to <b> and <i>.
  495. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> Also, maybe <font> should be made valid, that's not the question at hand (although I think it shouldn't because of the CSS incompatibility).
  496. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> (<font face=""> might be CSS-compatible, I guess. But not size or color.)
  497. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> Other than the legacy parsing concerns, why isn't @color css-compatible?
  498. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> And @size *almost* is.
  499. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Because of the legacy parsing, that's the only reason.
  500. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> Man, that's basically a quirk.
  501. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> It has significant implications, like it doesn't support alpha.
  502. # [20:36] <Philip`> zewt: I think the issue is more about video than audio
  503. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Size is totally not CSS-compatible, it uses an entirely different way of writing things. There's a mapping for all but one of the sizes to CSS sizes, but it's still different syntax.
  504. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> (plus there's no mapping for that last size, although I dunno why CSS doesn't just fix that)
  505. # [20:37] <zewt> oh right, that
  506. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: <font color> certainly does support alpha in Webkit.
  507. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Just put rgba() in it. ^_^
  508. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, then maybe the spec should be changed . . . http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#rules-for-parsing-a-legacy-color-value
  509. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> But the error handling would still be different. It's not just shorthand for CSS, it has additional processing rules.
  510. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Likely so. Pretty sure we just hand the value to the CSS engine to parse as a color.
  511. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> If that's actually web-compatible, what the heck is up with the spec?
  512. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> You've got to at least do some preprocessing, no?
  513. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> At least, my patch to allow 4/8 hexit colors affected the parsing of <font>.
  514. # [20:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-15-17.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  515. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Anyway, the only reason I support things like <u> is as shorthands, so it's not worth it nearly as much when it's <span style=color:red> vs. <font color=red>.
  516. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> At that point you may as well accept the slight increase in length for the sake of simplicity.
  517. # [20:40] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.110.212) (Quit: othermaciej)
  518. # [20:40] <TabAtkins> We appear to support #-less hex colors.
  519. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> I did write all these arguments down, you know, and you were given a week to address them.
  520. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> What do you do with things like <font color=aaa> or <font color=aaaaaaaaa>?
  521. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I figured they were adequately answered by the consistency argument.
  522. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> aaa is gray, as is a{6+}
  523. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> I specifically addressed the consistency argument, at considerable length.
  524. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> In the CP I contributed to.
  525. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Since I knew Hixie would object on the basis of consistency.
  526. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> And I disagree with how you did so. Shrug.
  527. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Well, you had a chance to say why, and you didn't. Anyway, that's that.
  528. # [20:42] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: davidwalsh)
  529. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> This is why I hate the decision process. I'm not *supposed* to say anything if I think my objection is already covered.
  530. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Who covered it?
  531. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> Hixie.
  532. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> I didn't see anyone addressing my arguments in detail.
  533. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Hixie wrote like three paragraphs.
  534. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> Because it's a silly issue that shoudl only need that much effort.
  535. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> The only detailed objection was the one about usability.
  536. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> Well, then I guess the ones who care about it more win.
  537. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> Long live presentational markup!
  538. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> Yup. Decision through exhaustion.
  539. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> You just haven't been established as a troll yet. ^_^
  540. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> That's the great thing about the decision process, even trolls get to have their say.
  541. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> That's... not a great thing.
  542. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> We should totally argue that <title> needs to be invalid, and write a pages-long proposal that cogently addresses every possible objection.
  543. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Debate club style, you know?
  544. # [20:45] <TabAtkins> I'll get right on that.
  545. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> I've never been very good at writing persuasive pieces that I don't actually agree with, sadly.
  546. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> (or maybe not sadly)
  547. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> (maybe it means I'm honest, could be a good thing)
  548. # [20:46] <Philip`> <marquee> is quite widely used and much simpler than any CSS equivalent - maybe it should be added next
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  550. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Philip`, does it have a CSS equivalent?
  551. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> Yes, the Marquee spec.
  552. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Is it implemented?
  553. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> But <marquee> is *much* shorter.
  554. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> On some mobile phones, yes.
  555. # [20:46] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-marquee/
  556. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> I'd say it should be implemented first.
  557. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Also, how often do people actually want to use marquees?
  558. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> I'd say we should make <marquee> invalid because the effect is annoying, like <blink>.
  559. # [20:47] <Philip`> In certain countries, very frequently
  560. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Not to mention it's way, way, way more marginal than <u>.
  561. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Ah, well, we have to be multicultural, right?
  562. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> I think <u> is annoying. :/
  563. # [20:47] * Philip` thinks it was probably .kr or something
  564. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Sounds plausible.
  565. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> East Asian sites always seem to look more eye-smarting and flashy than I'm used to.
  566. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Bright contrasting colors and such.
  567. # [20:49] <Philip`> Oh, no, it was .cn
  568. # [20:49] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080320#l-733
  569. # [20:50] <Philip`> <u> is on less than 10% of pages
  570. # [20:50] <Philip`> so <marquee> beats it easily in .cn, seemingly
  571. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> You need to check if <u> is used more often too, though. The Chinese are the ones who want it for semantic purposes, right?
  572. # [20:52] <zewt> the greatest thing javascript has given pages is the ability to create marquees, even when the user deliberately disables them in his browser
  573. # [20:52] <zewt> down with explicit user preferences!
  574. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> The argument was that, no, the Chinese dont' actually use <u> for sematnic purposes on the web.
  575. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> zewt: No, the greatest thing javascript has given us is the ability to create marquees *in the address bar*.
  576. # [20:53] <zewt> FFFFFFFFF
  577. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> . . . how does that work?
  578. # [20:53] <zewt> replaceState
  579. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> replaceState
  580. # [20:53] <zewt> ^5
  581. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Wow.
  582. # [20:53] <zewt> heh
  583. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> That's like Asteroids in your favicon.
  584. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> There are even browser games in the address bar now.
  585. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Or whatever it was.
  586. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> :/
  587. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Link?
  588. # [20:54] <zewt> does FF4 still play animated gifs in tabs? that's seriously annoying when it happens, heh
  589. # [20:54] * Quits: matijsb (~matijsb@188.205.108.18) (Quit: Leaving.)
  590. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> http://probablyinteractive.com/url-hunter
  591. # [20:54] <Philip`> AryehGregor: 377 pages in .cn: 101 have a <marquee>, 14 have a <u>
  592. # [20:55] <Philip`> (7 have <i>, 116 have <b>)
  593. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that has serious responsiveness problems in Chrome. Should I file this as a QoI issue in replaceState()?
  594. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  595. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I was about to say "interesting", but I think "frightening" is more apropos.
  596. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, . . . I was joking.
  597. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Do it anyway.
  598. # [20:56] <Philip`> These all seem to be distinct sites too, not just pages of a single site
  599. # [20:56] <zewt> browsers should pause any history-api-based changes to the address bar when the user focuses it, but I think many don't yet
  600. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Firefox also does a lousy job. Only Opera works well.
  601. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I can't copy-paste from the url bar while the game is going.
  602. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Go Opera! Paving the way in enabling gratuitous misuse of browser UI!
  603. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> I can in Opera.
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  605. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Opera also uses much less CPU.
  606. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> I'm impressed.
  607. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> This is surely the best completely useless advantage Opera has over other browsers that I've seen.
  608. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Just goes to show their commitment to quality.
  609. # [21:00] <Philip`> http://www.forestry.gov.cn/ - they do seem to like random scrolling bits
  610. # [21:00] <Philip`> Also: boxes that bounce around the screen (!)
  611. # [21:00] <zewt> well, it also is better about making sure the history api doesn't interfere with the user trying to use the address bar--that's a very solid advantage
  612. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's true.
  613. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Philip`, the thing is, I can't be sure I'm viewing it as it's intended to be viewed unless I use IE.
  614. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> . . . wow, it really does have a box bouncing around the screen for no apparent reason.
  615. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Chrome does the marqueeing right, at least.
  616. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> I'd try to translate it, but of course, the text is an image.
  617. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Nice how the site uses 100% CPU.
  618. # [21:02] <Philip`> That might be Flash
  619. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> And takes like 20 seconds to load.
  620. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Wow, in Firefox it's totally broken.
  621. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Oh, no it's not.
  622. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> It was just loading.
  623. # [21:03] * Philip` missed out on the Flash lens-flare experience when first loading the page since he has plugins disabled
  624. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> Hmm, yes it is. The box doesn't bounce. :(
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  655. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> Woo, just spent basically two days fully absorbing the SVG Compositing spec.
  656. # [22:16] <TabAtkins> But I think it produced some quality feedback.
  657. # [22:18] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i actually countered all your comments on www-archive
  658. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I didn't see. Apparently the chairs didn't either.
  659. # [22:18] <Hixie> no comment
  660. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> I'd go and look, but I've had enough of underline arguments for a while.
  661. # [22:18] <Hixie> (it was linked to from my poll answer)
  662. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> It was? Did you add it later?
  663. # [22:19] <Hixie> yeah
  664. # [22:19] <AryehGregor> Ah, okay. Maybe the chairs did see it and I just didn't recognize the quote.
  665. # [22:19] <Hixie> i haven't read sam's e-mail to see if he actually read any of it
  666. # [22:19] * AryehGregor is actually in the middle of an entirely different underline argument, on www-style
  667. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> "Marketing Automation" is a pretty cool euphemism for "spam".
  668. # [22:20] * bfrohs agrees
  669. # [22:20] * TabAtkins just blocked a spammer who used that phrase in their twitter bio.
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  671. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I'm playing with it a bit more in the live dom viewer. Our <font color> error-handling is totally weird, and doesn't match the spec basically at all.
  672. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> That's not quite accurate; we do match it in some ways.
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  674. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Oh, never mind, okay, I get it.
  675. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> The place where we part ways from the spec is in step 5 and 6. We just check if it's a valid CSS color at all - if so, we interpret it as such. If not, we toss it through the spec algorith (at least, as far as I can tell - I haven't tested all the algo corner cases)
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  677. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Does this cause any compat issues? If not, it would be nice if the spec could be changed to allow that.
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  679. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> No clue. Presumably not very large, or else we would have changed it.
  680. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> I'll raise it on the list.
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  684. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, how often have you run into cases where underlines in CSS wind up being the wrong color and you'd have really preferred they match the color of the text they're under?
  685. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> (Apropos to the discussion on www-style. I'm asking you because you have a lot more design experience than me.)
  686. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> I've never underlined anything that isn't a link or a heading. In neither case have I ever had such a problem.
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  688. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> k.
  689. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> I've sometimes linked things that are colored differently, so I got a blue underline under different-colored text.
  690. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Neither my links nor my headings tend to have much structure inside of them, though.
  691. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> anolis does that by default for some reason, although actual anolis users seem to have mostly disabled it.
  692. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Including HTML5.
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  704. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Aw, no fun. On the version of Chrome I have at home, using a partially-transparent color in svg (maybe just svg-in-html) makes the inspector report the color oddly, as an opaque color with an extra two hexits hanging off the end.
  705. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Like rgb(255,0,0)80 for half-opaque red.
  706. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> But my work version doesn't do it. ;_;
  707. # [23:10] <zewt> heh
  708. # [23:10] <zewt> one of those embarrassingly-obvious bugs
  709. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> It was funny seeing it as #f0080.
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  730. # [23:39] <jgraham> Hixie: The current outline spec really doesn't seem that amenable to easy selector implementation since you always have to consider the possibility of <h2>-<h6> changing the depth
  731. # [23:39] <Hixie> it can't change the depth of a <section> element
  732. # [23:39] <jgraham> I'm not saying I disapprove of the current spec, I just disagree with your statement
  733. # [23:40] <jgraham> No, but given an element it can change what outline depth it is at
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  735. # [23:42] <Hixie> given an element other than a sectioning element an an <h1> element, absolutely.
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  737. # [23:43] <Hixie> not much we can do about that if you want to be backwards compatible, but luckily there are few use cases for applying such a selector in those cases
  738. # [23:43] <Hixie> and there's an easy workaround
  739. # [23:43] <Hixie> (not using <h2>-<h6>)
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  741. # [23:45] <jgraham> For the author, sure, not really for the browser implementor
  742. # [23:46] <Hixie> why would browser implementors need such a selector for anything other than <h1>?
  743. # [23:46] <jgraham> I mean you can special case <h1> but you still need a slow-case
  744. # [23:46] <Hixie> i don't understand
  745. # [23:46] <jgraham> I mean when implementing the selector
  746. # [23:46] <jgraham> It has to work for any author input
  747. # [23:47] <Hixie> oh, i see. i'm saying to not do that. just do a selector that counts the number of elements of a given type in the ancetor chain.
  748. # [23:47] <Hixie> there's no use case for a generic outline algorithm selector, don't even consider doing one
  749. # [23:47] <Hixie> it would be a perf disaster
  750. # [23:47] <jgraham> The use case seems obvious
  751. # [23:47] <Hixie> oh?
  752. # [23:48] <jgraham> Without it, there is very little use case for a generic outline algorithm
  753. # [23:48] <Hixie> the generic outline algorithm's use case is anolis
  754. # [23:48] <Hixie> that's about it
  755. # [23:48] <Hixie> (anolis and other such systems that generate tables of contents)
  756. # [23:48] <Hixie> certainly not styling
  757. # [23:48] <jgraham> In particular the classic example where you aggregate content from multiple sources on a single page
  758. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> Also: my blog, since I use h1-6 inside a post, and h1 outside.
  759. # [23:48] <jgraham> and they all use headings differently
  760. # [23:49] <jgraham> And you want consistent styling
  761. # [23:49] <Hixie> well that's an html4 issue, nothing to do with the new outlining algorithm
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  765. # [23:49] <jgraham> Huh?
  766. # [23:50] <Hixie> if you want to be able to style the old-style <h2>-<h6> implied sections, then the perf issues of that were introduced years ago. in, like, tbl's "html markup" paper.
  767. # [23:50] <Hixie> that's why we introduced <section> and <h1>, so that you could style things
  768. # [23:50] <Hixie> since the perf issue of h2-h6 make them untractable
  769. # [23:51] <jgraham> That was never mentioned as a reason at the time
  770. # [23:51] <jgraham> Unless my memory has entirely failed
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  772. # [23:52] <Hixie> the whole point of <section>/<h1> is that it lets the browser take care of styling the <h1> on the basis of the nesting level
  773. # [23:52] <jgraham> But use cases like aggregating content were extensivly discussed
  774. # [23:52] <Hixie> that's another way of phrasing the same use case
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  776. # [23:52] <jgraham> Not at all
  777. # [23:53] <jgraham> It specifically requires that you can mix different styles of markup in the same document
  778. # [23:53] <Hixie> i don't really understand what we're arguing here.
  779. # [23:53] <jgraham> Not that you force a particular style for the CSS to work
  780. # [23:54] <jgraham> I'm arguing that selectors that work with the outline depth have to work with the full algorithm, even if they are only performant in special cases
  781. # [23:55] <Hixie> my main point here is that the outline depth algorithm is certainly not expected to be used in a perf-sensitive situation such as selectors, and that doing so is a lost cause; the algorithm is just designed to reflect the actual semantics of the page for semantic analysis like creating TOCs; and the design of that algorithm is constrainted by history.
  782. # [23:55] <Hixie> the new elements were specifically designed so that they could be styled in a performant manner
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  784. # [23:55] <Hixie> that's all
  785. # [23:56] <jgraham> I agree with all but the first point
  786. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> So would you consider it okay to have a :heading(n) selector *only* pay attention to <section>/<h1>?
  787. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> Or top-level <h1-6>?
  788. # [23:56] <Hixie> i wouldn't consider :heading(n) to be a good idea regardless
  789. # [23:57] <jgraham> (I also think the "selectors can't be slow" thing has been overdone. Many other things that authors willingly do are slow. We don't have to refuse to provide selectors on the basis of perf. unless it is unreasonably slow)
  790. # [23:57] <Hixie> but then i consider the use case of styling content that uses h2-h6 at different depths in an aggregation context to be a lost cause itself
  791. # [23:58] <Hixie> better to use the outline depth algorithm in the aggregator to generate consistent headings
  792. # [23:58] <Hixie> and then just use regular css
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  794. # [23:59] <Hixie> jgraham: slow selectors are a huge problem, because they are trivial to use in dramatically bad ways, and only UAs that implement them get screwed, and authors have no idea why.
  795. # [23:59] <Hixie> jgraham: and the problem only exhibits itself in real documents, not in test documents which the authors are using when writing their style sheets
  796. # Session Close: Sat Apr 09 00:00:00 2011

The end :)