/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 12 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  18. # [00:29] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: hey do you know of any reason why <input type=range> wouldn't work right in chrome using xhtml?
  19. # [00:29] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/459
  20. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> What's wrong with it on your machine?
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  22. # [00:30] <Hixie> it's got the wrong value
  23. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Ah, indeed.
  24. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Nope, no idea.
  25. # [00:30] <Hixie> huh
  26. # [00:30] <othermaciej> is the bug XHTML-specific?
  27. # [00:30] <Hixie> seems that way
  28. # [00:30] <othermaciej> (also happens in Safari trunk afaict)
  29. # [00:31] <Hixie> i was just trynig to load safari trunk to test it but my webkit build seems hosed
  30. # [00:31] <Hixie> it bounces for like a minute then dies silently
  31. # [00:31] <Hixie> i'll file a bug
  32. # [00:31] <othermaciej> Web Inspector thinks it got parsed correctly
  33. # [00:31] <othermaciej> (i.e. all the attributes show up with their proper values)
  34. # [00:31] <Hixie> yeah
  35. # [00:38] <Lachy> The chances that the W3C will accept CC0 seem particularly slim, considering that they already rejected suggestions for MIT and BSD
  36. # [00:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: only seems to occur if there's a max="" as well. weird.
  37. # [00:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: the part that's mysterious to me is that it's XHTML-specific
  38. # [00:40] <Hixie> maybe something to do with the order of attributes
  39. # [00:40] <Hixie> yup
  40. # [00:40] <Hixie> changing the order changes the behaviour
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  42. # [00:45] <othermaciej> attributes do indeed get processed one at a time
  43. # [00:45] <othermaciej> but I'm still puzzled that it's different between XHTML and HTML
  44. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> That's broken.
  45. # [00:46] <othermaciej> hmm, actually
  46. # [00:46] <othermaciej> I think in HTML the attributes all get assigned, and then all have their special processing done in order
  47. # [00:47] <othermaciej> in XHTML, it might be genuinely one-at-a-time
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  57. # [00:55] <Hixie> filed https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58281
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  67. # [01:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: so i can get any decision reverted if i just have two people complain?
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  70. # [01:34] <Hixie> i'm also confused as to why some decisions get made such that the decision doesn't match any proposal, and in others we are told "we only considered the proposals that were provided as CPs"
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  87. # [02:09] <nessy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ <- is broken for me...
  88. # [02:09] <Hixie> yeah i'm looking into it
  89. # [02:09] <Hixie> use http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/ for now instead
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  92. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I can't load the description of how to match A>B in the presence of XBL into my head. Given <details><summary/><div></div></details>, and <template><content includes=summary /><div><content /></div></template>, does "details>div" match the light-dom <div>, the shadow <div>, or both?
  93. # [02:18] <Hixie> off-hand, i dunno, i've paged all that out to long-term storage :-)
  94. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> Dammit.
  95. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> I wish you'd been writing in a proper algorithmic style back then. Expressing an algorithm as a series of "otherwise" clauses in a paragraph is confusing.
  96. # [02:18] <Hixie> yeah me too
  97. # [02:18] <Hixie> i don't recall that being especially difficult though, let me look
  98. # [02:19] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/2006/xbl2/Overview.html#shadow-content-and-css
  99. # [02:20] <Hixie> ok so we're given <details><summary/><div></div></details> and <template><content includes=summary /><div><content/></div></template>
  100. # [02:20] <Hixie> and the selector is "details > div"
  101. # [02:20] <Hixie> ok, there are two potential <div>s that could match
  102. # [02:20] <Hixie> let's look at the first one, in the bound element dom
  103. # [02:21] <Hixie> it has a details parent, so it definitely matches, irrespective of xbl
  104. # [02:21] <Hixie> now let's look at the other one
  105. # [02:21] <Hixie> its parent is a <template>, so that's what X is in the second paragraph...
  106. # [02:22] <Hixie> "allow-selectors-through" is false by default
  107. # [02:22] <TabAtkins> Assume that it's true.
  108. # [02:22] <Hixie> oh
  109. # [02:22] <Hixie> ok
  110. # [02:22] <Hixie> ok so "allow-selectors-through" is true and we assume there's no other binding applying
  111. # [02:22] <Hixie> so X becomes the bound element
  112. # [02:23] <Hixie> what is the bound element here, <details>?
  113. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  114. # [02:23] <Hixie> then yes, both <div>s match that selector.
  115. # [02:23] <TabAtkins> That's crazy times.
  116. # [02:23] <Hixie> i'm just answering your question dude
  117. # [02:23] <jamesr> allow-selectors-through is crazytimes
  118. # [02:24] <jamesr> you asked for it
  119. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> I know. ^_^ Still crazytimes.
  120. # [02:24] <Hixie> if you have a problem with the answer you should speak to Hixie of 2003 and 2005 :-P
  121. # [02:24] <Hixie> Hixie of 2011 is mentally ready to merge XBL into HTML and change everything in the process (though not ready in terms of available time, but that'll come)
  122. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> I'll put this down on the "Engineer with a time machine TODOs" list.
  123. # [02:25] <jamesr> warn the passengers of the Titanic? nah. pop a cap in Hitler's ass in 1938? nah. go talk to Hixie about XBL selector matching? HELL YEAH!
  124. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> The Hitler Conservation principle is well-known, so there's no reason to try to fix that.
  125. # [02:26] <Hixie> dude if you're gonna warn me about xbl just warn me it still won't be implemented by 2011 so i can work on stuff that doesn't give me a headache :-P
  126. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> (Any attempt to stop Hitler inevitably ends with WW2 still occurring in roughly the same or worse manner.)
  127. # [02:28] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.16) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  128. # [02:28] <wilhelm> Indeed. Knock out Clemenceau in 1917 instead.
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  130. # [02:33] <Philip`> Yeah, it could have been far worse - Hitler could have had dinosaurs
  131. # [02:36] <Philip`> (http://www.dinodday.com/ - I like their posters)
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  133. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Luckily, histories where that happens are usually the direct result of time-travelers, and so are fixable by other time-travelers.
  134. # [02:38] <Philip`> Maybe the reason time travel has never been invented is that whenever someone invents it, they mess up history, so the second person to invent time travel travels back to prevent the first person inventing it
  135. # [02:38] <Philip`> at which point they become the first person and the cycle repeats
  136. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> Yup, and time-cycles eventually result in a quantum fluctuation wiping out the cycle entirely.
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  143. # [02:52] <nessy> I liked the futurama where timetravel was only possible forward - and then they found that time repeats anyway
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  149. # [03:02] <bga_> http://www.webdevout.net/test?0k
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  155. # [03:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: what you describe as what you wouldn't do seems to me to be exactly what was done in both cases where it wasdone
  156. # [03:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: do you think the distinction between "mix and match" vs. "something not proposed at all" is a false one, or that the decisions in question were on the wrong side of that distinction?
  157. # [03:23] <othermaciej> (replies may be slow as I have a ton of bureaucratic paperwork to slog through tonight)
  158. # [03:23] <Hixie> i was trying to say that they were on the wrong side, but i could probably argue the other thing as well :-)
  159. # [03:25] <Hixie> looking at the focus ring one more closely, i don't really understand what was decided
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  161. # [03:25] <Hixie> what's the return value of drawFocusRing() now?
  162. # [03:26] <jamesr> a headache
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  164. # [03:26] * Hixie decides to not try to figure out today and to wait til he gets around to actually implementing the decision
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  171. # [03:40] <zewt> Hixie: was it intended that canvas.getContext() cache a null return value from "Return a new object for contextId"? or was it assumed that it would never fail if the context is supported by the UA?
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  173. # [03:42] <zewt> (guessing it wasn't intended to receive null as a return value, since null usually isn't considered "a new object")
  174. # [03:42] * Hixie looks
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  176. # [03:43] <Hixie> it can't cache null
  177. # [03:43] <Hixie> as you say, null is not a new object :-)
  178. # [03:44] <zewt> (and firefox just crashed, so a minute of thrashing to restart it...)
  179. # [03:44] <zewt> should the abstract "return a new object" algorithm never return null?
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  181. # [03:45] <zewt> getContext just doesn't seem to describe what happens on error--it seems like the "primary context" should also not be set on error
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  185. # [03:49] <zewt> (webgl returns null on error, which is why I care--it doesn't seem like that's valid)
  186. # [03:50] <jamesr> the problem is for webgl context creation should be async
  187. # [03:50] <jamesr> since it's heavyweight and can fail
  188. # [03:50] <jamesr> 2d context creation is assumed to be pretty lightweight and won't reasonably fail
  189. # [03:51] <zewt> they do have "context lost"/"context restored" events, but they're used later
  190. # [03:52] <zewt> i'm trying to convince them to do something saner, but that's hard to do when I can't tell what getContext actually wants them to do :)
  191. # [03:53] <zewt> IMO: getContext should propagate exceptions from context creation, clear the "primary context" on exception if it was just set, and prohibit null as a return value entirely
  192. # [03:54] <jamesr> what would you return in the case of a context initialization failure?
  193. # [03:54] <zewt> nothing--throw an exception
  194. # [03:55] <zewt> it's a synchronous failure
  195. # [03:55] <jamesr> gotcha
  196. # [03:55] <jamesr> so you'd have to block the call until you knew the context was ready
  197. # [03:55] <zewt> but I can't recommend that to webgl when getContext itself doesn't support it
  198. # [03:55] <zewt> it already has to do that
  199. # [03:56] <zewt> since webgl returns null if the context can't be created; now it would just throw an exception instead
  200. # [03:56] <jamesr> right. which is unfortunate for webgl but orthogonal to your concern
  201. # [03:56] <zewt> from talking with them this isn't totally set in stone, which is why I'm trying to nudge this towards something better before it is
  202. # [03:57] <zewt> (which is why I'm nagging hixie on IRC :)
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  209. # [04:15] <Hixie> zewt: the abstract "return a new object" algorithm should never return null, it should return a new object. :-)
  210. # [04:15] <Hixie> zewt: how can there be an error?
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  212. # [04:16] <zewt> webgl context creation can fail; it doesn't know if it can create a context until you try
  213. # [04:16] <Hixie> why can it fail?
  214. # [04:16] <Hixie> i don't understand how it could possibly fail
  215. # [04:17] <Hixie> you just get an object back
  216. # [04:17] <Hixie> what is there to fail
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  218. # [04:17] <zewt> creating the context creates the OS OpenGL context; that may fail
  219. # [04:17] <zewt> (or other 3d library)
  220. # [04:17] <Hixie> that's the UAs problem, it shouldn't expose such failures to web code
  221. # [04:17] <Hixie> web pages aren't going to be able to do any thing useful if getContext() returns null
  222. # [04:18] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go for dinner, will be back in a few hours if you want to discuss further.
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  224. # [04:18] <Hixie> or mail me
  225. # [04:18] <Hixie> later
  226. # [04:18] <zewt> later
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  229. # [04:26] <karlcow> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_sl99D2a18
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  301. # [08:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: regarding http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-link-href does href="" define a hyperlink in the <link> case?
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  325. # [09:16] <Hixie> hsivonen: no, href plus a rel value does
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  356. # [11:04] <zcorpan> Hixie: the ascii art diagram wraps in the spec. and the top and bottom 'borders' of the diagram seem misaligned
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  365. # [11:54] <Peter`> dbaron: great job at landing CSS animations!
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  390. # [13:27] <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2011Apr/0062.html
  391. # [13:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I find the stance entirely unsurprising
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  398. # [13:44] <kennyluck> [[I don't think we have an issue with recognizing other prefixes if they use the correct namespace declaration, just guessing we haven't taken the time to implement it yet.]] - what does this mean?
  399. # [13:45] <hsivonen> kennyluck: I read "have an issue with" as "object to"
  400. # [13:46] <hsivonen> (not as "have a bug in")
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  404. # [13:47] <jgraham> kennyluck: I assume it means "we haven't actively decided not to do this"
  405. # [13:47] <jgraham> But it has not been high enough priority to actually get implemented
  406. # [13:51] <hsivonen> was it so that WebKit devs wanted innerText to match what "copy" exports to the clipboard as plain text?
  407. # [13:51] <hsivonen> or am I imagining memories?
  408. # [13:51] <jgraham> That sounds like something I can imagine being true, but I can't say for sure if it is actually a line of argument they used
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  415. # [14:42] <wilhelm> Does Mozilla have any publicly available tests for registerProtocolHandler and/or registerContentHandler?
  416. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> I'd hope so
  417. # [14:45] <Ms2ger> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/components/feeds/test/test_registerHandler.html
  418. # [14:45] <wilhelm> \o/
  419. # [14:45] <wilhelm> Thanks.
  420. # [14:46] * wilhelm stea^H^H^H^Hborrows tests.
  421. # [14:46] <Ms2ger> How about you rewrite them to use testharness.js and submit them? :)
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  423. # [14:49] <wilhelm> That's what I'll probably end up doing, yes. :P
  424. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> Excellent
  425. # [14:51] <Ms2ger> Then please do steal them :)
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  523. # [18:02] <hsivonen> I have a screen recording of a slideshow as a QuickTime movie with Apple Animation codec
  524. # [18:02] <hsivonen> how do I encode it into WebM in such a way that successive frames that have no change get encoded as one long frame
  525. # [18:02] <hsivonen> with variable frame durations
  526. # [18:02] <hsivonen> ?
  527. # [18:03] <hsivonen> or should I not care and trust that frames that just say "the same as the previous frame" are cheap?
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  534. # [18:12] <Lachy> hsivonen, hopefully, the encoder would handle that for you
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  552. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> "We’ve worked closely with the Chrome team to implement a recent web standard so we can support a feature called native printing."
  553. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> The words "web standard" link to the CSS 3 Paged Media WD, dated October 2006.
  554. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Not exactly what I'd call "recent".
  555. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Compared to CSS 2.1
  556. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> The first WD of CSS 3 Paged Media was 1999.
  557. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Okay, you got me there. That predates 2.1.
  558. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> And a bunch of the functionality is already in CSS2.
  559. # [18:36] <jgraham> "a feature called native printing" sounds strange
  560. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-CSS2-971104/page.html
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  564. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> Hear hear, CSS2.1 a PR
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  613. # [19:57] <Philip`> I wonder why Sam acts as if http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Sep/0126.html was new information, when hsivonen already linked to it in his survey response
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  615. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> Because Henri didn't introduce it with FORMAL OBJECTION?
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  617. # [20:02] <Philip`> I suppose it suggests a good strategy is to repost all the old information that was previously discussed, in case the chairs have forgotten about it and can treat it as new information
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  622. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> I'd argue the winning strategy is not to play
  623. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> No, see, the winning strategy is to go first and hope your opponent makes a mistake.
  624. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> 'cause you can just take the middle square, see, and if they mess up you can win it then.
  625. # [20:04] <Philip`> Ms2ger: That strategy doesn't work if everyone else carries on playing without you
  626. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> wfm
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  632. # [20:14] * Philip` sees http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/04/12/native-html5-first-ie10-platform-preview-available-for-download.aspx - now with improved native HTML5 support that consists of four CSS3 modules and ES5 strict mode
  633. # [20:14] <paul_irish> haha.
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  635. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> And 300% hardware acceleration
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  649. # [20:41] <hsivonen> ooh. is IE10 PP1 really adding Flexbox? which snapshot of Flexbox?
  650. # [20:43] * Joins: tbassetto (~tbassetto@vau75-7-82-234-249-198.fbx.proxad.net)
  651. # [20:43] <Philip`> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/ie/gg192966#_CSS3FlexBox might or might not say
  652. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Whoa, PP1 already? They're serious about stepping up their release schedule.
  653. # [20:46] <tw2113> now if they could just get people off of XP
  654. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> Or release their new browsers for XP.
  655. # [20:47] <tw2113> that takes logic that MS can't compute
  656. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> +Vista, I hear?
  657. # [20:47] <tw2113> it causes segfaults
  658. # [20:47] <zewt> please stop trying to coerce me into "upgrading" away from an OS that I like to one that I do not like; thanks
  659. # [20:47] <bfrohs> And here I thought SP3 was their attempt to get people off of XP...
  660. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Do grid and flexbox layouts support very different use-cases? I thought they were similar ideas.
  661. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> zewt, please upgrade to linux ;)
  662. # [20:48] * bfrohs agrees with Ms2ger
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  664. # [20:48] <zewt> i don't touch linux as a desktop OS, thanks :P
  665. # [20:48] <tw2113> why not?
  666. # [20:48] <zewt> relegated to a terminal, where it belongs
  667. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, how does that help? IE doesn't work on Linux either. :(
  668. # [20:48] <Philip`> AryehGregor: They say "Higher cadence just means more frequent releases of incomplete software (and larger version numbers). What matters is when consumers and businesses take delivery of robust, production-ready browsers that use the new technology." which doesn't sound like a great endorsement of a stepped-up release schedule
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  670. # [20:49] <bfrohs> I have to admit, it's nice to see Microsoft trying to get back into the game.
  671. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> It rather sounds like "It takes us half a year to run all our regression tests by hand, and then another 3 months when we've fixed the regressions, so we can't go faster"
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  674. # [20:51] <zewt> "it takes a really long time to WONTFIX all of these bug reports"
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  676. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> That, too
  677. # [20:52] <hsivonen> that there are multiple browsers implementing the same prefixed CSS features is sad. I wish we could get rid of the prefixes faster.
  678. # [20:52] <tw2113> well you don't need to use them
  679. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, it's been discussed like six times in the CSSWG, and nobody seems to be interested enough to agree on a solution.
  680. # [20:53] <hsivonen> tw2113: yes, I do. I want cool stuff right now.
  681. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> What they should really do is declare individual features stable even before CR, and commit to not changing the syntax, so that vendors can drop prefixes before the whole spec moves to CR.
  682. # [20:53] <tw2113> :P
  683. # [20:53] <hsivonen> having to have bugs like https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=642265 is just sad
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  685. # [20:54] <tw2113> my prefix order is this: -moz, -o, -webkit, no prefix
  686. # [20:55] <tw2113> i just let IE render what it can, and use modernizr in some cases
  687. # [20:55] <hsivonen> tw2113: why do you discriminate IE?
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  690. # [20:55] <tw2113> because i am not a fan of it at all
  691. # [20:55] * paul_irish tries to think of common css3-y stuff that uses a -ms- prefix...
  692. # [20:56] <zewt> historically microsoft has a really well-compressed vendor prefix
  693. # [20:56] <zewt> ""
  694. # [20:56] <paul_irish> in the past IE has refrained from implementing things with a prefix
  695. # [20:56] <paul_irish> yah
  696. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, isn't that the consensus?
  697. # [20:56] <hsivonen> paul_irish: CSS 2D transforms is an example of a spec that's implemented with a prefix in the top 4 engines
  698. # [20:56] <paul_irish> but ie10 changes that philosophy.
  699. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, possibly, but no one seems to be doing it.
  700. # [20:56] <paul_irish> also 2d transforms in ie9 yes
  701. # [20:56] <hsivonen> paul_irish: I count that as a failure of the standardization process
  702. # [20:57] <paul_irish> probably. that and msft is way more "careful" about adopting features than everyone else
  703. # [20:57] <tw2113> MS just marches to the beat of their own drummer and i deal with it last
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  705. # [20:57] <aho> Peter`, just saw your vendor prefix tweet. ace! :D
  706. # [20:57] <Ms2ger> I'm not too happy about dropping prefixes before we have a test suite, myself
  707. # [20:57] <paul_irish> "Updated my Vendor Prefixed #CSS overview with lots of new Firefox, Opera and IE hotness :-) http://goo.gl/NZY0N "
  708. # [20:58] <aho> thanks for the copypasta ;)
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  711. # [21:03] <aho> Peter`, i'm not sure about the meaning of gray/italic entries :f
  712. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, that's a great philosophy if anyone actually bothers writing tests in a reasonable timeframe.
  713. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> In practice, not so much.
  714. # [21:05] <Peter`> aho: thanks :) The grey ones are the same properties, yet not prefixed anymore
  715. # [21:05] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: that doesn't help much if existing content is of the form -moz-foo: bar; -webkit-foo: bar; -o-foo: bar; -ms-foo: bar; foo: bar;
  716. # [21:06] <aho> ah ok... so... firefox supports... filter?
  717. # [21:06] <hsivonen> aho: different filter, IIRC
  718. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  720. # [21:07] <aho> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/filter
  721. # [21:07] <aho> ah yea... svg filter/mask stuff
  722. # [21:08] <bfrohs> Out of curiosity: 'test suite' or 'testsuite'? Both are used on whatwg wiki.
  723. # [21:08] <Ms2ger> Both are used in my head, too
  724. # [21:08] <hsivonen> Peter`: might make sense to put Firefox's filter and IE's -ms-filter on different rows, since they are really different features
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  726. # [21:09] <Peter`> it's a limitation in the system right now, I am aware of the problem
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  729. # [21:10] <aho> you could add a tooltip comment for now ;)
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  732. # [21:15] <aho> i'd use ⓘ (24d8) instead of that ✍ thing
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  739. # [21:27] <Peter`> aho: Good idea, thanks! Both changed.
  740. # [21:28] <aho> :)
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  744. # [21:38] <bga_> oh
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  748. # [21:39] <bga_> now we have name collision between IE's filter and modern SVG's filter
  749. # [21:39] <bga_> many sites will be broken
  750. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> We've had this conflict for forever.
  751. # [21:40] <Ms2ger> WebKit has even generalized document.all's behaviour for it
  752. # [21:40] <bga_> choose for example `svg-filter`
  753. # [21:41] <bga_> document.all is good
  754. # [21:41] <TabAtkins> This hasn't been a problem so far, because IE hasn't implemented SVG 'filter', and the two versions have massively different syntaxes.
  755. # [21:43] <jgraham> "document.all is good" - uh what?
  756. # [21:44] <bga_> _filter:alpha(opacity = 50); filter: svg filter here
  757. # [21:44] <bga_> or CC
  758. # [21:45] <bga_> jgraham document.all.foo is shorter than document.getElementById('foo')
  759. # [21:45] <bga_> :)
  760. # [21:45] <bga_> developers too lazy
  761. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> Bah. It should be just query('#foo') (on window, so it can be omitted).
  762. # [21:46] <bga_> or $('foo'), yes
  763. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> $ is too opaque, even though it does have a lot of history, imo.
  764. # [21:47] <bga_> or with(document.all){ foo } :P
  765. # [21:47] <TabAtkins> Bleh.
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  767. # [21:47] <jgraham> bga_: Every time you use document.all a kitten dies
  768. # [21:47] <jgraham> Well I say a kitten
  769. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> What's wrong with window.foo? ^_^
  770. # [21:48] <jgraham> It is more like most of the cute animals for a mile radius
  771. # [21:48] <bga_> TabAtkins gecko? :)
  772. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Pfft.
  773. # [21:49] <jgraham> Hmm, gecko supports that
  774. # [21:49] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure
  775. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Only in quirks mode.
  776. # [21:49] <jgraham> Same as document.all
  777. # [21:49] <jgraham> (did I already mention that you shouldn't use either?)
  778. # [21:50] * TabAtkins uses window.[id] for quick tests because it's just easier. Nothing public, though.
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  781. # [21:53] <bga_> main goal is make development easy imho. foo.onclick = _bar or document.getElementById('foo').addEventListener('click', _bar, false)
  782. # [21:54] <bga_> you provide giant stong api with long names
  783. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Yup, most of the "good" APIs were apparently designed with no consideration for authoring ease. :/
  784. # [21:55] <bga_> ppl are forced to invent jq like frameworks
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  789. # [22:01] <jgraham> bga_: There is "easy" and "easy to shoot yourself in th foot"
  790. # [22:02] <bga_> i know
  791. # [22:03] <TabAtkins> There is also, of course, "omg verbose how did you ever consider this acceptable don't you know we're in Peak ASCII?".
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  830. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> Heh, the behavior of transformed elements that are broken across columns is amusing.
  831. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> Particularly when you animate the transform.
  832. # [23:36] <Hixie> url? :-)
  833. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> One sec...
  834. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> 925 on your dom viewer
  835. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> (Sorry, I was doing the test on my windows box, and your "saved" url is too long to easily remember.
  836. # [23:38] <Hixie> hah
  837. # [23:38] <Hixie> nice
  838. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> This makes it somewhat difficult to determine if I need a getQuads() function in addition to getQuad(), for the transformed quad.
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  847. # Session Close: Wed Apr 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)