/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-14 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 14 00:00:01 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:02] <jamesr> we can't do much about 2d canvas at this point
# [00:02] <jamesr> despite it being kind of bad in many places
# [00:02] <jamesr> hopefully we can still fix webgl issues
# [00:03] <Hixie> indeed
# [00:03] <zewt> do you have any sense of whether there's any chance of making getContext async by default? it would be a totally breaking change, so I'd imagine not, but I don't know their compatibility philosophy at this stage
# [00:03] <zewt> (if I were them, I'd say no, since losing momentum on people who have started using webgl already would be a hit for them)
# [00:04] <Hixie> depends what you mean by async
# [00:04] <zewt> <jamesr> canvas.addEventListener("webglcontextready", domyshit); canvas.getContext("webgl", {async: true});
# [00:04] <Hixie> i don't think we should do that
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# [00:04] <Hixie> i think we should just return an object that's initialising
# [00:04] <jamesr> in that proposal it returns an object immediately
# [00:04] <jamesr> right
# [00:04] <zewt> how's that different from the above?
# [00:04] <jamesr> and the webglcontextready tells you when the context is ready to receive draw commands
# [00:04] <jamesr> you basically said what i said :)
# [00:05] <Hixie> and it should act as if it was initialised until such time as the page does something that can tell if it really was initialised or not
# [00:05] <Hixie> at which point it blocks
# [00:05] <zewt> hmm
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# [00:05] <jamesr> if you issued draw calls on the context before it was ready you'd get an immediate exception
# [00:05] <Hixie> much like how things like .offsetWidth and CSS work
# [00:05] <jamesr> just like how lost contexts behave
# [00:05] <jamesr> no, i don't think the implicit blocking is good
# [00:05] <Hixie> jamesr: i don't think that's a good design either
# [00:05] <jamesr> .offsetWidth's behavior is terrible for applications
# [00:05] <Hixie> contexts should always work, imho
# [00:06] <jamesr> it causes impossible to diagnose performance issues
# [00:06] <zewt> jamesr: an advantage of implicit blocking is it's backwards-compatible, though
# [00:06] <Hixie> imho we shouldn't expose hardware and OS limitations
# [00:06] <Hixie> anyway
# [00:06] <Hixie> not my problem :-P
# [00:06] <jamesr> a disadvantage of implicit blocking is that it's terrible and slow
# [00:06] <Hixie> i have enough problems to deal with as it is :-P
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# [00:09] <zewt> trying to only bug you where the problems intersect with getContext :P
# [00:09] <jamesr> so i think getContext should return something immediately
# [00:09] <jamesr> a
# [00:09] <jamesr> and it should be up to WebGL to define how interactions with that context work
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# [00:11] <zewt> jamesr: the options at that point are 1: block when needed (ugly but backwards-compatible), 2: *always* return an initializing canvas, and queue an event to initialize it, so it's *guaranteed* that you can never use the context until webglcontextrestored (or whatever) is fired async
# [00:11] <jamesr> {async: true} can be an indication to webgl that the context should start uninitialized and that it should fire an event when the context is ready to go, or another event if the context is never gonna come up
# [00:11] <jamesr> zewt: yeah i prefer 2
# [00:11] <zewt> that is, even if the browser is able to return an already-initialized canvas, it must not
# [00:12] <jamesr> well, only if it's the first call
# [00:12] <zewt> right
# [00:12] <zewt> (err, already-initialized context)
# [00:12] <jamesr> subsequent calls get the primary context in whatever state its in
# [00:12] <jamesr> so maybe they get a still-uninitialized context, maybe they get an initialized context, maybe they get a lost context
# [00:12] <jamesr> but the first call creates and immediately returns an uninitialized context
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# [00:17] <Hixie> are any of the pro- people who actually want for semantic reasons and not presentational reasons here by any chance? (or are there no such people?)
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> I think there are a couple of Chinese people who want it for semantic reasons.
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure most of us want it for presentational reasons, though.
# [00:18] <Hixie> i'm trying to apply this CP but the semantic definition in the CP makes no sense (it mixes multiple unrelated things together)
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I managed to work into the change details that it's just an example and you can make more or less whatever change you like as long as it makes conforming.
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# [00:19] <Hixie> i guess i could just have it be defined as "the one presentational element in the language"
# [00:19] <Hixie> but i can't really see why we would want to add presentational elements
# [00:19] <AryehGregor> Or redefine and and and and . . . as presentational. :)
# [00:19] <Hixie> that would be a retrograde step
# [00:19] <AryehGregor> I'm aware you think that. :)
# [00:20] <Hixie> i really don't understand this concept of wanting HTML to have presentational markup
# [00:20] <Hixie> but anyway
# [00:21] * Hixie looks at the Decision to see if any sort of rationale can be determined from that
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# [00:21] <Hixie> it looks like the main rationale is "wysiwyg tools output it"
# [00:21] <Hixie> so maybe that would be the definiton to use
# [00:22] <Hixie> "represents text that was underlined in a WYSIWYG tool"
# [00:22] <othermaciej> you could just start with the B definition: "The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance, such as key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text whose typical typographic presentation is boldened."
# [00:22] <othermaciej> and replace the "such as" list
# [00:22] <othermaciej> and the word "boldened" with "underlined"
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# [00:22] <Hixie> if and both have the same meaning, we should drop one of them.
# [00:23] <Hixie> the normative part of the definition is "a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance"
# [00:23] <Hixie> it doesn't mention bold at all except in the non-normative list of examples
# [00:23] <othermaciej> the definition (skipping the "such as") is "The i element represents a span of text in an alternate voice or mood, or otherwise offset from the normal prose"
# [00:23] <kennyluck> then what about "a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any document edit"
# [00:24] <othermaciej> which seems like a superset of "stylistically offset from the normal props without conveying extra importance"
# [00:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: right, supersets are common in HTML. e.g. is a superset of all the phrasing elements.
# [00:24] <othermaciej> so the spec already allows multiple different elements for different kinds of text stylistically offset from the normal prose
# [00:25] <othermaciej> it seems like the only difference between b and i is that i may (but does not have to) indicate extra importance
# [00:25] <othermaciej> though none of the listed examples indicate extra importance afaict
# [00:25] <Hixie> i is a non-stylistic offset
# [00:25] <Hixie> b is a stylistic offset
# [00:26] <Hixie> the examples demonstrate this quite well, i think
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# [00:26] <Hixie> e.g. reading the examples, they are all cases where you'd speak with a different voice (typically slightly slower), whereas the examples you wouldn't read differently at all
# [00:27] <othermaciej> so the key difference is whether the offset is stylistic?
# [00:27] <kennyluck> Hixie, I don't agree with that, especially when is used for technical terms.
# [00:27] <othermaciej> you'd speak a ship name or taxonomic name in a different voice?
# [00:27] <Hixie> right. has more in common with : one is key words or passages that the author highlights, while the second is key words or passages highlighted by an editor.
# [00:27] <othermaciej> I certainly haven't noticed sea captains or biologists doing that in speech
# [00:28] <AryehGregor> I don't speak ship names or taxonomic terms in a different voice.
# [00:28] <AryehGregor> Or loanwords, even if I'd italicize the loanword.
# [00:28] <gsnedders> I do!
# [00:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: for ship names and species names there's a pause before the name (same as book names with <cite>, actually).
# [00:28] <gsnedders> I make them sound all impressive and stuff!
# [00:28] <othermaciej> English typographic rules are unfortunately slightly ad-hoc
# [00:28] <othermaciej> Hixie: you have unusual prosody, then
# [00:28] <Hixie> that's possible
# [00:29] <othermaciej> "The scientific name for the common house cat is felix catus."
# [00:29] <othermaciej> er, "felis catus"
# [00:29] <othermaciej> anyway
# [00:29] <othermaciej> most people would not pause in that sentence, unless they were unfamiliar with the term, in which case it is a matter of confusion, not style
# [00:29] <Hixie> i definitely speak that "felis catus" part differently.
# [00:30] <AryehGregor> I'd say it differently in that specific sentence.
# [00:30] <AryehGregor> But not because it's a taxonomic term.
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> If I said "The common term for the United States is 'America'", I'd also pronounce "America" differently.
# [00:31] <Hixie> yeah, quotes are similar in style
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> Although actually, properly speaking, "America" should probably be italicized there.
# [00:31] <othermaciej> because it's a copula?
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> I dunno.
# [00:32] <AryehGregor> What I'm very sure of is that the rules for italics in English are not tied to pronunciation, they're tied to various historical conventions that developed solely in writing.
# [00:32] <Hixie> another way of thinking of the difference between and is that is something that applies to the text, such that if you copied the sentence to another document you'd keep the same s, whereas is context-sensitive, so you might not keep the same s and might in fact have different s
# [00:32] <othermaciej> "The frequency of red light is about 680 nanometers"
# [00:32] <AryehGregor> My copy of Paradise Lost has all proper nouns italicized. Does anyone pronounce all proper nouns differently from other words?
# [00:32] <Hixie> that wouldn't be imho
# [00:32] <Hixie> more
# [00:33] <Hixie> (but that's splitting hairs)
# [00:33] <othermaciej> so the quasi-semantic uses of sound similar to , except that there is a different ad-hoc list of things where the relevant default typographical rule applies
# [00:33] <Hixie> well the key difference is that the uses for are virtually non-existent in comparison
# [00:34] <AryehGregor> You realize that no one but you is actually going to consistently use and for the semantics you've defined, right? Everyone's just going to use them for bold and italics.
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# [00:34] <AryehGregor> Even standards aficionados.
# [00:34] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure anyone but you actually understands the semantics you've defined for or .
# [00:34] <TabAtkins> Hey, I used for the correct purpose! (Actually, fantasai corrected me and made me use .)
# [00:34] <Hixie> nobody uses <cite> consistently either, doesn't mean there's no benefit to having clear definitions
# [00:35] <othermaciej> in practice, and will be inserted when the user of a WYSIWYG editor hits Cmd+I, Cmd+B or Cmd+U respectively
# [00:35] <Hixie> what will be inserted when the user in a WYSIWYG editor drags an image to a specific position on the page?
# [00:36] <othermaciej> <img>?
# [00:36] <Hixie> what if the position is over another image?
# [00:36] <AryehGregor> What does "over another image" mean?
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> <img> with abspos?
# [00:36] <AryehGregor> It will be inserted at wherever you drag it to.
# [00:36] <Hixie> why don't we have html elements for abspos then?
# [00:36] <AryehGregor> Probably it'll go before or after the existing one.
# [00:36] <othermaciej> I haven't tested WYSIWYG editors that allow exact positioning control to see what they do
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# [00:37] <AryehGregor> Pretty sure it's not gonna be absolutely positioned.
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> Because Aryeh isn't speccing something that requires absposing stuff?
# [00:37] <AryehGregor> I'm currently speccing what browsers implement, or some approximation thereto.
# [00:37] <AryehGregor> And they don't implement any such thing.
# [00:37] <othermaciej> even though people think of bold, italic and underline presentationally, they often affect the meaning of the text in some way (even if not clearly expressed or even understood by the user)
# [00:37] <AryehGregor> Generally, contenteditable stuff is meant to be sliced out and reused in other pages, so abspos wouldn't make sense unless you could guarantee the position relative to some non-statically-positioned container.
# [00:38] <Hixie> and what about if the user draws a text box above another and says the first should flow to the second? should we have elements for positioned text flows? or columns? or any other presentational stuff?
# [00:38] <othermaciej> exact positioning of images, generally not
# [00:38] <Hixie> or what if the user says the underline should be dotted?
# [00:38] <AryehGregor> Bold, italic, and underline *always* affect the meaning of the text in some way. Unless you're talking about some illiterate sign put up by someone who applies them at random.
# [00:38] <Hixie> basically i'm saying i don't understand what is special about
# [00:38] <AryehGregor> Hixie, huh? What does "draws a text box above another" mean?
# [00:38] <Hixie> AryehGregor: do you have Pages.app by any chance?
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: In a layout manager for a magazine, for example, or something similar.
# [00:39] <AryehGregor> Hixie, virtually every WYSIWYG editor has a very prominent underline button. I don't even understand what these other things you're talking about are.
# [00:39] <AryehGregor> Hixie, if that implies having Mac, then no.
# [00:39] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that's a very atypical use-case compared to basic inline formatting.
# [00:39] <AryehGregor> Zillions of blogs allow HTML-formatted comments, practically no one formats magazines using a web app.
# [00:39] <othermaciej> if you think of producing a publication as a process where one person does the writing, and a different person does layout, bold/italic/underline are generally added by the writer, while many of the other things Hixie mentions would be done by the person in charge of layout
# [00:39] <Hixie> in Pages, the ability to position text is more prominently displayed in the UI than the ability to underline text
# [00:39] <TabAtkins> Huh? It's very typical in print publishing, which is getting closer and closer to being doable with high fidelity using web technologies.
# [00:40] <AryehGregor> Print publishing is a very uncommon use-case, compared to marking up blog comments or forum posts.
# [00:40] <AryehGregor> It's a specialty thing that almost no one will ever be involved in.
# [00:40] <Hixie> we shouldn't be encouraging people to underline text on the web in those contexts anyway, since it's bad ui (clashes with links)
# [00:40] <TabAtkins> Wait until Named Flows (a proposal from Adobe) get implemented.
# [00:40] <othermaciej> most links on the web are not underlined by default these days
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# [00:41] <othermaciej> most that I see underline only on hover
# [00:41] <Hixie> (pretty much everything i've described is either in css or has been proposed for css, fwiw)
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# [00:42] <othermaciej> but anyway, I don't want to debate
# [00:42] <AryehGregor> It's still just not anywhere near as common as underlining.
# [00:42] <othermaciej> was just trying to contribute ideas for a sensible definition
# [00:42] <othermaciej> I must admit I do not fully grok the distinctions among the existing valid phrasing elements
# [00:42] <othermaciej> so I am perhaps not the best person to make suggestions
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# [00:44] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't really see much underlining around the web, personally, except for links
# [00:44] <Hixie> AryehGregor: and when i do see it it tends to be bad typography
# [00:44] <AryehGregor> Hixie, didn't the CP say that is the sixth most common phrasing element or something like that?
# [00:44] <AryehGregor> I agree that it's bad typography, almost always.
# [00:44] <AryehGregor> Underlines are only really appropriate for typewriters and handwriting.
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> But users expect them, so authors will add the functionality one way or another.
# [00:45] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: We established a few days ago, I thought, that it's used on a fairly small percentage of sites. I guess it's just used a lot on those sites.
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> No need to make their lives difficult.
# [00:45] <Hixie> AryehGregor: was the 8th-most used element of all in 2005, doesn't mean we should encourage its use
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> I don't see any point in discouraging it.
# [00:45] <AryehGregor> But then, I don't have a problem with presentational markup per se.
# [00:46] <AryehGregor> So it's kind of hard to have any sort of discussion with you about this kind of thing.
# [00:46] <Hixie> AryehGregor: and <table> was the 9th, well above
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> I see a lot of reason to discourage it, from seeing novices abuse it and create layouts that break in different resolutions.
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# [00:46] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you don't have a problem with media-specific presentation?
# [00:46] <TabAtkins> Back when I was a webdev, the person from Marketing I worked with would occasionally write HTML, and pretty much every use of was a misuse that I had to fix.
# [00:47] <Hixie> pretty much every use of in general is a misuse, indeed
# [00:47] <AryehGregor> Hixie, in the real world, no. It's best if you can do things media-independent, and we should try to design the language to be easy to use in a media-independent fashion, but there are always limits. I don't have a problem with the fact that the overwhelming majority of authors test only in conventional browsers.
# [00:47] <nessy> hehe - sometimes it's easier than div clear both ;-) but yeah...
# [00:47] <AryehGregor> Nor with the fact that they only care about conventional browsers.
# [00:48] <Hixie> they shouldn't have to test it at all
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> nessy: That was, by far, the most common reason I had to correct it - it was being used as a poor-man's clear.
# [00:48] <TabAtkins> nessy: Which usually broke in different screen widths.
# [00:48] <AryehGregor> All software has to be tested if you want it to work well.
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# [00:48] <AryehGregor> I agree that we should be trying to design the language so that a page only tested in conventional browsers works okay in other UAs too.
# [00:49] <Hixie> that goal is entirely incompatible with presentational markup.
# [00:50] <othermaciej> what would unconventional UAs be able to do better if the [U] button in editor UI inserted something other than ?
# [00:50] <AryehGregor> Not really. Other UAs can just skip the presentation, and the meaning will typically be preserved. Or they can adopt some convention to render it in their preferred medium, even if it's not normal for that medium.
# [00:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: the state of the art is such that WYSIWYG editors can't create good media-independent pages.
# [00:50] <AryehGregor> E.g., if users of screen readers wanted to know what text was italicized, the UA could read italic text in a different voice or something, or say "italics" before reading it, or such.
# [00:50] <Hixie> othermaciej: hence why i originally had as conforming, but just for wysiwyg editors
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> Then they know the text was italicized, which is enough to grasp the meaning as well as someone actually viewing it.
# [00:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm fine with being just for those editors
# [00:51] <nessy> what problem exactly is introduced by allowing ?
# [00:51] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that is treating those users as second-class citizens, which is imho quite immoral.
# [00:52] <nessy> I also want it in WebVTT, btw, because captions have it and we don't have links there, so there is no confusion
# [00:52] <AryehGregor> Hixie, do you think authors are morally obligated to spend a disproportionate amount of their time on a tiny minority of their users?
# [00:52] <TabAtkins> Do you think that saves a "disproportionate amount of [author] time"?
# [00:52] <othermaciej> so there's a possible definition - "The u element represents a span of text that a user chose to underline without expressing a specific semantic."
# [00:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there is no need to spend any time over any subset of one's users if one uses semantic markup
# [00:53] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That's just "this element is presentational". ^_^
# [00:53] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, that's what i suggested earlier
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> Hixie, that's just not true in practice.
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, no, but once you're okay with presentational markup, there's no reason to disallow .
# [00:53] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it really is
# [00:54] <TabAtkins> IIRC, the major motivation for was to save bytes over .
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> Hixie, if that were true, then you'd expect authors to widely use semantic markup. The fact that they aren't indicates that there's some cost to it. Maybe education, maybe the actual use -- but if the benefit significantly outweighed the cost, it would be popular.
# [00:54] <Hixie> once you're ok with presentational markup, there's no reason to disallow <center>, <table border>, , bgcolor="", etc, either
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I've already addressed that point multiple times.
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# [00:54] <AryehGregor> I'm okay with allowing anything that would be widely used and is a simple shortcut for equivalent CSS markup.
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# [00:55] <AryehGregor> None of the items you mention qualify.
# [00:55] <AryehGregor> (although I think <table border=1> should be valid for different reasons)
# [00:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there are two reasons people don't use semantic markup; the cognitive (people don't think semantically), and wysiwyg editors.
# [00:55] <AryehGregor> Hixie, sure. Both of those are legitimate disadvantages, and they normally outweigh the advantages by a large margin.
# [00:56] <kennyluck> Before I see more examples how and are styled, I don't think the cognitive part can make any improvement.
# [00:56] <Hixie> AryehGregor: but in both cases it is _using presentational markup_ that leads to spending "a disproportionate amount of their time on a tiny minority of their users"
# [00:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if you just used semantic markup, you'd spend all your markup time on all your users, and some additional time on just visual users (writing the css)
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# [00:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we're not going to solve either of those problems by adding
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> Hixie, assuming you understand semantic markup to begin with, and that it's not more efficient for you to use a WYSIWYG editor.
# [00:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we might help the first a little by not having
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> Both of those are illegitimate assumptions.
# [00:57] <Hixie> if you use a wysiwyg editor, non-visual users are a lost cause
# [00:57] * TabAtkins suggests that AryehGregor spend some time maintaining a large site that was written by a dev who used layout tables and presentational markup heavily.
# [00:58] <Hixie> so that case isn't really interesting to this discussion
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, separate issue. You can write easy-to-maintain code that uses only appropriately-classed spans and divs, with no semantic markup at all.
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# [00:58] <TabAtkins> I have never seen such a thing.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> You can write bad code in any language.
# [00:58] <Hixie> i don't have a problem making a second set of conformance criteria for wysiwyg editors while the state of the art there is where it is
# [00:58] <TabAtkins> I consider it a theoretical case that doesn't exist in practice.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> Well, for one thing, you could be using Dreamweaver or something.
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# [00:59] <AryehGregor> But we're talking about , not table-based layout.
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# [00:59] <TabAtkins> Use of was also rampant in the last large site I maintained.
# [00:59] <AryehGregor> Hixie, WYSIWYG editors are probably the most important issue at stake for .
# [01:00] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the CP asks for to be always conforming, not just for editors
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> Hixie, because there's no way to tell if something was written by an editor.
# [01:00] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i'd be fine with making just valid for editors, just like omitting alt="" is valid just for editors.
# [01:00] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there's no way to tell if the contents of an <h1> are a heading either, but we still require that
# [01:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we can have different conformance criteria for hand authors than for editors
# [01:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: that's not a problem
# [01:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: indeed we did, at some point in the past
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I don't care as long as the validator doesn't complain. As far as I'm concerned, authoring conformance requirements that aren't machine-checkable are your personal opinion and they don't affect me.
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> (unless I happen to agree with them)
# [01:01] <AryehGregor> However, the CP might be construed not to allow this.
# [01:01] <Hixie> so you'd be ok with being only valid if the document has a <meta name=generator> element?
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> No.
# [01:02] <Hixie> i rest my case
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> Who says WYSIWYG-edited pages always actually produce that?
# [01:02] <Hixie> we can say that
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> In particular, part of the page might be WYSIWYG-edited.
# [01:02] <Hixie> "editors must include..."
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> That will lead to people including <meta name=generator> to shut up the validator.
# [01:03] <AryehGregor> Even on hand-edited pages.
# [01:03] <Hixie> well people can always shut up the validator
# [01:03] <Hixie> validators are tools
# [01:03] <Hixie> you can always take the battery out of the smoke detector
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> Allowing people to shut up the validator by including useless cruft is an antipattern.
# [01:04] <Hixie> no, it's adding the useless cruft that's the antipattern
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> We had too much of that in the old days, things like type="text/javascript" and so on.
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> Well, as I said, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this, so go ahead and make any change you like that's compatible with the CP.
# [01:04] <othermaciej> I'll just note that, while almost any prose expressing non-machine-checkable requirements on contents is likely consistent with the decision, limiting it to documents with <meta name=generator> likely is not
# [01:04] <Hixie> the difference there is that type="" was useless, whereas the generator mark serves a useful purpose: distinguishing editor-autogenerated pages from hand-authored pages
# [01:05] <Hixie> my real concern is what to do in the whatwg copy
# [01:05] <Hixie> not the w3c copy
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> Ah.
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> I wonder which one the validator will follow.
# [01:05] <Hixie> if i don't include , then henri will probably follow a hybrid
# [01:06] <Hixie> so i plan to include
# [01:06] <Hixie> just not sure how to include it
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# [01:08] <kennyluck> I still don't know why can't we just reuse the pattern or perhaps modified as "stylistically offset from the normal props without conveying extra importance, emphasis and document edit (for <ins>)"
# [01:09] <Hixie> kennyluck: because if it's the same as , then why do we need it at all?
# [01:09] <kennyluck> Hixie, it's a subset of like is a subset of .
# [01:09] <kennyluck> (HTML5-logy)
# [01:09] <Hixie> is a superset of
# [01:09] <Hixie> actually that's not quite true
# [01:10] <Hixie> they cover different and mostly not overlapping roles
# [01:10] <Hixie> see the earlier discussion
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# [01:54] <Hixie> i found a way to define that i can live with. finding the right terminology wasn't easy, and i'm not sure i really succeeded, so i might tweak it some more.
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# [02:02] <Hixie> still not really sure the use cases justify its existence, but i guess the same applies to <samp> and that one is still in, so...
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# [02:11] <hober> Hixie: there's an en-GB-x-Hixie'ism in the text
# [02:11] <hober> misspelt should be misspelled
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# [02:15] <Hixie> heh
# [02:15] <Hixie> thanks
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# [02:15] <Hixie> hober: actually all my dictionaries say both are accetpable
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# [02:16] <Hixie> acceptable
# [02:16] <TabAtkins> Your dictionaries are too friendly to the crown.
# [02:16] <Hixie> and by "my dictionaries" i mean, apple's, wiktionary, and the ones i found on google
# [02:16] <Hixie> none mention that this is a Brit vs US thing
# [02:16] <Hixie> which they usually do
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# [02:26] <Philip`> http://thespellingblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/learned-or-learnt-spelled-or-spelt.html has potentially relevant graphs
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# [02:37] <TabAtkins> It's odd that your dictionaries don't mention the "t" as a Britishism. American English has a strong preference for "ed", as the graphs at Philip`'s link show.
# [02:39] <Hixie> well if you care, one of them at least is user-editable
# [02:39] <Hixie> :-)
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# [02:41] <TabAtkins> Indeed. "spelled" and "spelt" clearly list each one as a british or american/canadian variant, as appropriate, but "misspelt" doesn't.
# [02:44] <TabAtkins> Fixed, woo!
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# [03:31] <zewt> clicking on a reference in the spec (http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-canvas-getcontext "getContext"), then right-clicking on the real "#dom-canvas-getcontext" link in the overlay, causes the overlay to disappear, so I can't copy-link-location the link; guessing it's a missing e.button==0 check
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# [04:39] <karlcow> http://www.mobilexweb.com/blog/symbian-anna-browser-html5
# [04:39] <karlcow> "Nokia has just announced Symbian ‘Anna’, an updated version of Symbian^3 that will be shipped with new devices, such as X7 and E6"
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# [06:43] <Hixie> seriously? we have <table border> now too?
# [06:43] <Hixie> jesus
# [06:43] <Hixie> it's like we're back in 1997
# [06:46] <zewt> better do the macarena
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# [07:31] <hsivonen> I wonder what SanDisk is going to get out of being a W3C Member.
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# [08:38] <zcorpan> i wonder how ie's software rendering compares to other browsers' software rendering
# [08:40] <othermaciej> well for one thing, it's way more native
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# [09:12] <hsivonen> how did a synchronous thing like Blob.size end up in a new API? that's sadness.
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# [09:13] <ryanseddon> Would that syncchronous stuff be so it can run in a worker
# [09:13] <ryanseddon> *synchronous
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# [09:16] * hsivonen wonders if Apple's marketing feels it missed a huge opportunity to be the first to promote Native HTML5.
# [09:16] <ryanseddon> hsivonen: they'll market it as magical HTML5
# [09:17] <hsivonen> I believe Firefox already has awesome HTML5.
# [09:17] <Hixie> revolutionary html5! which would be ironic given how html5 was first introduced ("evolution not revolution")
# [09:18] <ryanseddon> don't let facts get in the way Apple marketing
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# [09:18] <othermaciej> what are "facts"?
# [09:20] <ryanseddon> Facts is a TV program in Hong Kong, which broadcast short films obtained or shoot with information from audiences.
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# [10:00] <zcorpan> instead of native HTML5, we should be marketing foreign HTML5
# [10:01] <Hixie> i don't really understand what there is to market
# [10:01] <Hixie> but what do i know
# [10:01] <zcorpan> well microsoft use the term to market their new CSS features
# [10:02] <Hixie> in favour of what?
# [10:02] <zcorpan> layout tables?
# [10:03] <Hixie> they're markup advocates now?
# [10:03] <zcorpan> yeah, last year they advocated use of custom elements
# [10:04] <zcorpan> (in their video they also call css rules for 'markup')
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# [10:05] <othermaciej> I wonder, does their Native HTML5 still support Same Markup?
# [10:06] <zcorpan> of course
# [10:06] <aho> In this case "native" can be interpreted as "from Microsoft". So, technically they aren't lying. There are just manipulative bastards. #IE10
# [10:06] <aho> :>
# [10:06] <zcorpan> same markup as last year
# [10:07] <zcorpan> same as every year, james
# [10:08] <othermaciej> I like that the IE team is working hard to improve their engine, but their marketing buzzwords are just really weird sometimes
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# [10:10] <aho> i agree
# [10:10] <aho> there shall be less cocain for the pr department
# [10:10] <aho> +e
# [10:11] <aho> btw, ie10 changes/additons w/o the BS is over here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/ie/gg192966
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# [10:14] <Hixie> "Internet Explorer Platform Preview must be in ”IE10 Standards Mode” to correctly display webpages" aka "we still don't follow the specs most of the time"
# [10:14] <Hixie> ("even on things that we claim to follow the specs on")
# [10:15] <Peter`> I wonder why they didn't decide to start deprecating the compatibility modes by not including the IE9-mode
# [10:15] <Peter`> It would be a good starting point, seeing that it's a recent and more modern browser.
# [10:16] <zcorpan> Peter`: indeed
# [10:16] <Hixie> wow, a huge proportion of the stuff on that page is proprietary (i.e. vendor-prefixed) stuff
# [10:16] <zcorpan> maybe now they just introduce more modes for the hell of it
# [10:16] <Hixie> Peter`: the more modes they introduce, the more the web fragments, at least if they get much market share
# [10:16] <Peter`> This is an interesting line as well: "In addition, do not use an “X-UA-Compatible” meta tag on the page or send a custom HTTP header from the web server."
# [10:17] <Hixie> Peter`: luckily for the web, they've been losing market share fast enough that they haven't been able to really damage it
# [10:17] <aho> huh? so even "edge" won't do the trick?
# [10:18] <Peter`> Hixie: Yes, but there's several reasons why maintaining support for multiple rendering engines isn't ideal
# [10:18] <zcorpan> aho: i guess it's just good advice (like there are other doctypes that trigger the latest mode too)
# [10:18] <Hixie> Peter`: yeah there's a huge cost for them
# [10:18] <Hixie> Peter`: i'm curious how many of these modes are in the mobile version of their browser
# [10:18] <Hixie> (the one supposedly in ie8)
# [10:18] <Peter`> Hixie: That'd be interesting to see, indeed
# [10:19] <aho> http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-monthly-200807-201104 <- looks like a collision in about a year haha
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# [10:20] <Hixie> pity that data only goes back to '08
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# [10:21] <Hixie> wow, IE is really low these days
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# [10:22] <Hixie> compared to its heyday
# [10:23] <aho> http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ID-monthly-200807-201104
# [10:23] <aho> indonesia rocks <3
# [10:24] <aho> (internet is pretty expensive there... there aren't any casual users)
# [10:25] <hsivonen> I'd have expected Opera to rank higher in Indonesia
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# [10:25] <hsivonen> does that graph exclude usage that is classified as "mobile"?
# [10:25] <aho> yes
# [10:25] <hsivonen> indeed Opera leads in Indonesia in the Mobile Browser graph
# [10:25] <aho> well... i think... :>
# [10:26] <aho> lol
# [10:26] <aho> they got digg vs reddit stats
# [10:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Worldwide, mobile browsers are 2.85% of the web. In Indonesia, 9.39%.
# [10:28] * gsnedders wonders how they count Opera Mini users in terms of their location
# [10:29] <hsivonen> looks like in Europe, Chrome has recently been eating the market share of Firefox more than it has eaten the market share of IE, since the Firefox and IE lines are about to cross again
# [10:30] <hsivonen> (while Opera and Safari are constant and Chrome is on an upwards slope)
# [10:31] <othermaciej> depending on which stats you trust, in US share, Safari is close to passing Firefox
# [10:31] <othermaciej> it's strange that browser shares are so different between different countries
# [10:31] <jgraham> Safari? That sounds very [citation needed]
# [10:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: don't you have to miscount Chrome as Safari to get that result?
# [10:32] <jamesr> sure you aren't counting chrome in those numbers (the UA string ends Chrome/12.0.712.0 Safari/534.27 on my build)
# [10:32] <jamesr> ?
# [10:32] <gsnedders> Russia is interesting… everything except Safari is losing share to Chrome. (Safari is constant.)
# [10:32] <othermaciej> yes, http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=0 doesn't count Chrome as Safari
# [10:32] <othermaciej> (those are the world stats)
# [10:33] <othermaciej> I am not sure you can see per-country stats without an account
# [10:33] <hsivonen> othermaciej: one can't
# [10:34] <aho> i blame ff's decline on their delayed release of ff4. 3.x really started to look bad in comparison
# [10:34] <othermaciej> I can post a screenshot of the US view (um, on imgur I guess?)
# [10:34] <aho> ff4 still isn't pushed via notifications, is it?
# [10:34] <hsivonen> aho: afaik, no
# [10:34] <othermaciej> I paid for an account long ago and it never expired (even though the card it was on no longer exists)
# [10:35] <hsivonen> I'm not sure if there's a policy, but I imagine the update push is waiting for 4.0.1
# [10:35] <jamesr> ffx4 should do quite well once they prompt ffx3.X users to update
# [10:36] <jamesr> woah, according to the microsoft blog IE8 had "(full compliance with the CSS2.1 standard)"
# [10:36] <aho> if the phase of the moon was just right, yes
# [10:36] <jamesr> that's one of the most impressive claims they've made
# [10:36] <aho> they also claimed that ie6 supports css 1.0 fully
# [10:36] <othermaciej> http://i.imgur.com/Ix9T9.png
# [10:36] <aho> well, it didn't :>
# [10:36] <othermaciej> citation: ^
# [10:37] <aho> (background-attachment:fixed was missing... and well, there were of course lots of bugs, too)
# [10:37] <hsivonen> jamesr: it's quite possible that IE8 passed some snapshot of the official CSS 2.1 test suite
# [10:37] <hsivonen> othermaciej: wow. almost a percent still on Netscape
# [10:37] <aho> lol
# [10:38] <othermaciej> yeah, some Americans apparently have shitty computer setups
# [10:38] <hsivonen> how are they counting? or, alternatively, what's wrong with the people using Netscape still?
# [10:39] <jamesr> i wonder what the historical graph on those figures looks like
# [10:39] <othermaciej> they count through statistical sampling of visits to selected site, then for world share numbers, weighting that by internet-using population per country
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# [10:39] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ooh. Bing as the search engine
# [10:39] <othermaciej> sadly there doesn't seem to be a way to get a per-country tendline graph
# [10:39] <othermaciej> and their custom queries are slow
# [10:39] <jgraham> Hmm, that graph would be more consistent with other (less region-specific) stats with chrome and safari reversed
# [10:40] <othermaciej> their worldwide stats seem vaguely in line with other people's worldwide stats
# [10:40] <othermaciej> as do their europe stats
# [10:41] <othermaciej> they do incorporate mobile browsing in the same stats
# [10:41] <othermaciej> and it measures browser usage share, not market share (i.e. weighted by how much people browse, not by number of unique users)
# [10:42] <hsivonen> in Germany, they really like to update Firefox before the prompted push: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-DE-daily-20110322-20110413
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# [10:43] <jgraham> Germany seems to really like Firefox for some reason
# [10:43] <aho> i like how even f-ing ff 3.0 got more than ie6 :>
# [10:43] <jamesr> if you change that graph to USA then you can really strongly see workweek vs weekend effects: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-US-daily-20110322-20110413
# [10:44] <aho> (at the same time i'm also annoyed that ff 3.0 and ff 3.5 still exist)
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# [10:45] <hsivonen> aho: well, at least 3.0 isn't supported anymore
# [10:45] <hsivonen> aho: there might be Camino still identifying as Firefox/3.0
# [10:45] <aho> browsers should auto-update. failing that they should self destruct :v
# [10:46] <hsivonen> it's also possible for Linux distros to keep 3.0.x alive beyond what MoCo supports, but it seems even Debian stopped patching 3.0.x
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# [10:46] <othermaciej> their all-Europe share claims are:
# [10:46] <othermaciej> IE - 42.17%
# [10:47] <othermaciej> Firefox: 31.68%
# [10:47] <othermaciej> Chrome: 13.4%
# [10:47] <othermaciej> Safari: 8.10%
# [10:47] <othermaciej> Opera: 3.6%
# [10:49] <othermaciej> China is 80% IE
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# [10:49] <othermaciej> (I think it used to be closer to 90% a year ago)
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# [10:49] <jamesr> check out south korea
# [10:49] <jamesr> started to move, but still 95%+ IE
# [10:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: if the stats are true, that might be explainable by new dual-engine browsers
# [10:50] <othermaciej> Maxthon supposedly gets registered separately
# [10:50] <othermaciej> India is near-even 3-way split among Firefox, IE and Chrome
# [10:51] <othermaciej> Switzerland has the highest Safari share of any country I could find (16.2%)
# [10:52] <othermaciej> Russia has 23% Opera
# [10:54] <zcorpan> way to go Russia
# [10:54] <othermaciej> wow, Indonesia is crazy, only 10% IE
# [10:54] <othermaciej> and 65% Firefox
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# [10:55] <hsivonen> what's the story behind Opera's share in Ukraine?
# [10:56] <hsivonen> IIRC, the story behind the share in Kazakhstan was the Turbo bypasses their censorship filter
# [10:57] <hsivonen> s/the/that/
# [10:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: The story is that it has been high for a long time afaik
# [10:59] <jamesr> my personal favorite: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-AL-monthly-200807-201104
# [10:59] <gsnedders> Yeah, AFAIK most of the Eastern European places with high marketshare have been high going back to the late 90s
# [10:59] <othermaciej> Ukraine has even more Opera share than Russia it seems
# [11:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: The origin presumably goes back to the time when Opera was pay-to-play or ad-supported
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# [11:01] <hsivonen> jgraham, gsnedders: ok. Did Opera have some specific language support advantage back then?
# [11:01] <othermaciej> stat counter stats show some dubious looking artifacts
# [11:01] <othermaciej> http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-US-monthly-200807-201104
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# [11:02] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Not AFAIK. But I can't claim to know much back then. I was just a little kid.
# [11:02] <othermaciej> I disbelieve the giant IE spike / Firefox dip / Safari dip in early 2009
# [11:02] <Ms2ger> I disbelieve all those stats
# [11:03] <zcorpan> lies!
# [11:03] <othermaciej> three kinds of lies?
# [11:03] <aho> things like that can be caused by changing the sampling size
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# [11:09] <aho> completely off-topic, but does anyone know if there is some list which shows some relationship between languages and character ranges?
# [11:09] <aho> like... which languages can i cover with latin + latin supplement + latin extended A
# [11:09] <Lachy> aho, http://www.unicode.org/charts/
# [11:10] <Lachy> I don't know if that has the detail you want though
# [11:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: that just shows scripts to character ranges, not langauges
# [11:10] <gsnedders> *languages
# [11:10] <gsnedders> aho: I guess it's hard to classify… c.f. people who use "naïve" and "café" in English
# [11:10] <aho> basically i want to know which character ranges i need to put into my texture fonts if i want to support some specific set of languages :>
# [11:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think part of the story on Opera in Ukraine and elsewhere is that it is still runnable on really old hardware
# [11:11] <zcorpan> aho: grep spellchecker dictionaries?
# [11:11] <MikeSmith> 486
# [11:12] <aho> opera still works in win9x afaik :)
# [11:12] <gsnedders> MikeSmith, hsivonen: and old OSes, too
# [11:12] <gsnedders> aho: Yeah.
# [11:12] <gsnedders> Not officially supported, but it still works
# [11:12] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: right
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# [11:12] <aho> zcorpan, y'know what... that might actually do the trick
# [11:12] <hsivonen> I thought Opera required Windows 2000
# [11:12] <gsnedders> hsivonen: "not officially supported".
# [11:13] <hsivonen> so does WebM in Opera work on Windows 95?
# [11:13] <gsnedders> Win95 doesn't work since 10.50, I think
# [11:13] <gsnedders> Win98… dunno.
# [11:13] <aho> a machine with win95 won't be fast enough ;)
# [11:15] <gsnedders> hsivonen: But, well, being unsupported, crashing is perfectly acceptable behaviour. :P
# [11:15] <aho> zcorpan, actually... i think i'll just create it straight from the translations. this way i'll automatically get everything i need and /only/ what i need
# [11:16] <jamesr> aho: if you have the text then what you want is the set of glyphs in that text
# [11:17] <zcorpan> aho: translations of what?
# [11:17] <aho> i don't have any translations yet :)
# [11:17] <aho> text messages in my game
# [11:18] <zcorpan> ah
# [11:18] <zcorpan> yeah there are tools to subset fonts
# [11:18] <zcorpan> Philip` even wrote one
# [11:18] <aho> i want to use texture fonts for that because they look better and because i cannot be arsed to implement all that text stuff in the flash emulation thingy :>
# [11:19] <aho> http://i.imgur.com/BEmv2.png
# [11:19] <MikeSmith> what are texture fonts?
# [11:19] <aho> "soft" outlines and drop shadows for free :>
# [11:20] <aho> MikeSmith, bitmap based font rendering
# [11:20] <aho> there are one or more images which contain the glyphs and you then just draw what you need
# [11:21] <jamesr> bitmap fonts AKA ugly-ass fonts
# [11:21] <aho> <aho> http://i.imgur.com/BEmv2.png <- does that look ugly?
# [11:21] <jamesr> yup
# [11:21] <aho> looks much better than the native font rendering you get on windows
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# [11:23] <aho> http://i.imgur.com/oOXtd.png
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# [11:23] <aho> see?
# [11:24] <aho> ClearType only looks good at smaller size if the font is properly hinted
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# [11:24] <aho> *sizes
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# [11:26] <zcorpan> only the 36px one looks good
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# [11:28] <aho> looks pretty jaggy to me :l
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# [11:29] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure that particular font would look good now matter how it's rendered…
# [11:29] <aho> the sub pixel rendering on mac and linux looks a lot better at bigger sizes
# [11:29] <aho> http://www.google.com/webfonts/family?family=Crafty+Girls&subset=latin
# [11:30] <MikeSmith> "Crafty Girkl
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> that font is kawaii
# [11:32] <zcorpan> hybi changed the framing again
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# [11:34] <zcorpan> and they also started to mask their own emails
# [11:34] <jgraham> They are better that way
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# [11:36] <jamesr> they make more sense that way
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# [11:36] <zcorpan> they forgot to do a handshake, so i'll refuse to read their messages
# [11:37] <jgraham> I don't understand the IETF subprotocol anyway so I am dropping the connections
# [11:40] <zcorpan> previously i thought that browsers would never fragment, but now that the long length is in plaintext many we should always fragment if length is >= 2^16 so that the long length encoding is never used
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# [11:41] <zcorpan> s/many/maybe/
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# [11:42] <jgraham> For security reasons?
# [11:43] <zcorpan> yeah, just in case. another benefit is pongs can be sent with low latency (although who cares about that)
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# [11:50] <jgraham> othermaciej: Admit it, the point of that email was to get the phrases "Chomsky hierarchy" and "infelicities" into the same message and thereby intimidate any future scrabble opponents
# [11:51] <othermaciej> jgraham: I'm actually not all that good at Scrabble!
# [11:51] <othermaciej> but I did enjoy the opportunity to be gratuitously pedantic
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# [11:59] <hsivonen> yeah, it's questionable not to consider content models part of syntax
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# [13:19] <zcorpan> anyone read 'Smashing HTML5'?
# [13:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: sounds violent to HTML5.
# [13:21] <hsivonen> if it's an adjective instead, is "Smashing" better than "Native"?
# [13:21] <jgraham> It is more indicative that mashed potato will be involved
# [13:22] <jgraham> scare quotes implied
# [13:22] * gsnedders wonders if that's just a British thing or not
# [13:22] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure it is
# [13:22] <gsnedders> Wikipedia says it is.
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# [13:23] <jgraham> "The texture of Smash is not identical to that of real mashed potato, being somewhat smoother"
# [13:24] <jgraham> Neither is the taste, although smoother is not the adjective one would use
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# [15:01] <zcorpan> how often is developers.whatwg.org synced with the spec?
# [15:01] * zcorpan noticed it still has <table summary>
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# [15:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I think Ben syncs it manually
# [15:11] <MikeSmith> but not sure
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# [15:32] <GlitchMr> "<input type="text"> needs a minlength="" attribute"
# [15:32] <GlitchMr> I love reading FAQ
# [15:32] <GlitchMr> <input type="text" pattern=".{3}">
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# [16:03] <zcorpan> uh ok maybe that's enough tweeting for today
# [16:03] <benschwarz> heyo
# [16:03] <benschwarz> Just got home :)
# [16:03] <karlcow> hmm still not interop for document.lastModified :(
# [16:03] <karlcow> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4363#c7
# [16:04] <benschwarz> Hixie, zcorpan, Keep me in the loop on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12491, I'll do whatever I can do to help
# [16:05] <zcorpan> benschwarz: btw how often is developers.whatwg.org synced?
# [16:05] <hsivonen> is there an easy way to find the cases in the spec where navigation occurs without replacement enabled?
# [16:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: load single page, search for 'navigate'?
# [16:08] <jgraham> zcorpan: "no" would have been fewer characters
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# [16:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
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# [16:10] <benschwarz> zcorpan: I do it manually still…
# [16:10] <benschwarz> at first it was very regular
# [16:10] <benschwarz> but I processed it last week
# [16:11] <hsivonen> I wonder if other browser have nicer code for implementing browsing contexts
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# [16:11] <benschwarz> zcorpan: Running it now ;0
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# [16:20] <zcorpan> benschwarz: ah, i thought you had a cron job or something set up
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# [16:30] <AryehGregor> Browser developer people: who would be good people to ask (from all the major browsers) whether browsers would be willing to implement this requirement from CSS 3 Text? "The UA should place the start and end of the line inwards from the content edge of the decorating element so that, e.g. two underlined elements side-by-side do not appear to have a single underline. (This is important in Chinese, where underlining is a form of punctuation.)"
# [16:30] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure this would break sites and browsers wouldn't be willing to do it, but I'd like to know, since I'm currently arguing about it on www-style.
# [16:31] <AryehGregor> I'd like to e-mail someone from each of the major browsers asking, and CC www-style.
# [16:32] <AryehGregor> I'm guessing bzbarsky is good for Mozilla, but no idea who to ask at WebKit or Opera (let alone Microsoft).
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# [16:32] * AryehGregor pokes WebKit and Opera people: TabAtkins, dglazkov|away, jgraham, zcorpan
# [16:33] <wilhelm> See /msg. (c:
# [16:33] <karlcow> AryehGregor: how do you do with vertical text?
# [16:33] <AryehGregor> wilhelm, since you only told me the address privately, does that imply that I shouldn't e-mail him CCd to a public list?
# [16:34] <AryehGregor> karlcow, I dunno, that's a whole separate issue.
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# [16:41] <zcorpan> what, ie doesn't support name getters on forms?
# [16:41] <zcorpan> oh it's just <img>?
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# [16:43] <karlcow> AryehGregor: yup, I was curious. your sentence popped up this issue.
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# [16:45] <zcorpan> Oprah supports File.slice? who knew
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# [16:57] <kennyluck> AryehGregor, I'm pretty sure that's not a bad idea too (re. holes in consecutive underlines). What I proposed was a new value in a property no browser has implemented yet http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Dec/thread#msg102
# [16:57] <kennyluck> s/a bad/a good/
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# [16:58] <AryehGregor> kennyluck, yeah, but fantasai and Koji don't seem to agree, so I need to get implementers to decide.
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# [17:40] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you know, my execCommand() spec is already around 100 KB of source code, and probably isn't even half done. How do you plan to review it and incorporate it into HTML5 when it's ready?
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# [17:44] <Ms2ger> Review? Who needs that? :)
# [17:44] <jgraham> AryehGregor: s/How//
# [17:44] <AryehGregor> Well, the plan is that he's going to be the one maintaining it while I'm off studying, so he'll have to understand it.
# [17:45] <AryehGregor> jgraham, my contract says the execCommand() work is to be included in HTML5.
# [17:46] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That sounds dangerous. W3C will presumably reject it from HTML5
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> More specifically, it says "the HTML spec".
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> It can be HTML6, whatever.
# [17:46] <Ms2ger> Does it say "spec"?
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> "Have the HTML spec updated accordingly."
# [17:46] <AryehGregor> The point is, I'm not going to be around to maintain it.
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> So someone has to take it over, and the plan had been that it would be Hixie.
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> Who's perennially swamped with work.
# [17:47] <jgraham> Updated accordingly could be a reference to your spec in a different document
# [17:47] <AryehGregor> In theory, but it still needs an editor, unless we want it to bitrot.
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# [17:59] <jgraham> Not really sure why it would bitrot unless implementations make lots of changes to their ExecCommand stuff
# [17:59] <AryehGregor> It will need to be updated to reflect implementation feedback.
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# [18:00] <AryehGregor> In a spec this size, there are going to be plenty of issues that will only come up during or after implementation.
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# [18:01] <jgraham> Indeed, if you get to the stage where browsers are making changes based on the spec then active editing will be needed
# [18:02] <AryehGregor> Would be kind of a waste if we don't get to that stage, won't it?
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# [18:03] <jgraham> Not if you come back, pick it up, and we get to that stage
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# [18:04] <AryehGregor> Possible. I don't really know how things will go. I won't typically be around, but there are a few breaks in the year of a couple weeks to a month where I might be able to do work.
# [18:05] <AryehGregor> So maybe that would be enough to maintain the spec.
# [18:05] <AryehGregor> I can't really guarantee anything.
# [18:06] <AryehGregor> (I can't even guarantee that I'll be studying this fall, although I already signed up for it and paid a non-refundable fee to reserve a spot, because it's possible I'll wind up getting engaged to someone or other in the next few months, which will turn everything upside down. It's a perpetual hazard for young Orthodox Jews.)
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# [18:15] <jgraham> How very strange-sounding. Still, whatever works for you I guess.
# [18:15] <AryehGregor> Which parts sound strange?
# [18:16] <jgraham> "it's possible I'll wind up getting engaged to someone or other in the next few months"
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I figured that part would sound strange.
# [18:16] <AryehGregor> You silly non-Jews, waiting for years to get to know someone before getting engaged instead of proposing after commonly two months or less.
# [18:17] <AryehGregor> Chassidim commonly propose on the second date or so, but in my circles it's usual to wait until at least seven or so.
# [18:18] <jgraham> That at least indicates an element of control that was lacking in your original phrasing of the situation
# [18:18] <AryehGregor> Well, I don't know when I'll meet someone I like, so that much I don't control.
# [18:18] <wilhelm> Sounds like an … optimistic approach.
# [18:19] <AryehGregor> Works well for us.
# [18:19] * jgraham finds the whole concept of marriage very strange so maybe isn't the right pwerson to comment here
# [18:19] <jcranmer> the secretary problem!
# [18:20] <jcranmer> reject the first N people, and then accept the first person you meet after them who is better
# [18:20] <jcranmer> provably optimal!
# [18:20] <AryehGregor> The conditions don't seem applicable.
# [18:20] * jgraham is disappointed to discover the secretary problem is not "people in high powered jobs often have affairs with their secretaries"
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# [18:21] <AryehGregor> The secretary problem assumes a small and fixed pool of people to choose from, and only gives you points if you pick the absolute best one.
# [18:22] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Maybe you could use the theory if you combined it with a speed-dating approach to partner finding
# [18:22] <jcranmer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem#Unknown_number_of_applicants
# [18:22] <AryehGregor> Also, you can always go out with someone you rejected before.
# [18:23] <AryehGregor> The cardinal payoff variant with an unknown number of applicants sounds like the best fit.
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# [18:23] <jcranmer> sqrt(N) is optimal if the number is known in the latter case
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> The model that seems like a natural fit would be to assign each applicant some value between 0 and 1, and decrease the value of all applicants by some factor every time you reject someone.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> With an unlimited number of applicants.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> This reflects the fact that you'd prefer to find someone you like and marry at age 25 than to wait until 40 but find the perfect person.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> At least, I would.
# [18:24] <AryehGregor> So you have to discount with time.
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# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Supposing the distributions are known, what's the optimal strategy then?
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Hmm, accounting for the cost of evaluation is important too. But my model naturally does that.
# [18:25] <AryehGregor> Too bad I have no idea how to go about finding an optimal solution.
# [18:26] <AryehGregor> I always wanted to study game theory.
# [18:26] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think optimising the problem description is a pretty big waste of time since it is so fundamentally flawed :)
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# [18:40] <AryehGregor> Hmm, this doesn't handle the case of inserting a doctype in the wrong place, does it? http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-node-insertbefore
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# [18:41] <Ms2ger> That's handles in the nodes model above
# [18:41] <Ms2ger> -s+d
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# [18:41] <Ms2ger> (Actually, we haven't got around to it)
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> There's no normative requirement that nodes model violations throw a HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR.
# [18:42] <AryehGregor> In fact, such a requirement would be kind of scary, because it would inject exceptions into specs that look like there can't be any exceptions.
# [18:43] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I know
# [18:43] <Ms2ger> Patches accepted ;)
# [18:43] <AryehGregor> Actually, what I'd like to see is some low-level "insert a node" algorithm that more or less acts like insertBefore() but is the single place that everything references when inserting nodes.
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> Which specifies that mutation events are fired, things like that that need to be in one place.
# [18:44] <Ms2ger> Would be nice, indeed
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> If I finish all the execCommand() and DOM Range work before using up all my contract hours, maybe I can use the rest on DOM Core.
# [18:44] <AryehGregor> (No idea how likely that is.)
# [18:45] <AryehGregor> Actually, the problem with having the "insert a node" algorithm throw exceptions is that if an exception will be thrown, you often want to bail out in advance.
# [18:45] <AryehGregor> Like I'm doing Range.insertNode() right now, and that will invoke splitText() in some cases, but you don't want to do that if you won't wind up inserting the node.
# [18:46] <AryehGregor> So better to have one algorithm to do the insert, another to throw the exceptions.
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# [18:50] <rafaelw> Hello, all.
# [18:50] <rafaelw> Is anyone at Opera present?
# [18:50] <wilhelm> Usually.
# [18:50] <jgraham> In mind or body?
# [18:50] <rafaelw> At keyboard will suffice.
# [18:50] <rafaelw> =-)
# [18:51] <rafaelw> I work on the chromium team.
# [18:52] <rafaelw> I've been working with Hixie's guidaince on developing an some ideas around a proposal for including templating/databinding functionality in html.
# [18:53] <rafaelw> I'm hoping to find someone at Opera interested in this problem space.
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# [18:54] <jgraham> rafaelw: Have you tried posting your ideals to a mailing list somewhere public?
# [18:54] <jgraham> *ideas
# [18:55] <hsivonen> rafaelw: I'm not from Opera, but do you have a use case document in public?
# [18:55] <rafaelw> jgraham: Yup, we're planning that.
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# [18:56] <jgraham> rafaelw: Basically if you post use cases and whatever design ideas you have to, say, whatwg then we will pay attention
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# [18:56] <rafaelw> We'd like to include microsoft on the discussion, so we're planning to go through public-webapps @ w3c
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# [18:56] <jgraham> Works for us, although there is probably lots of charter realted crap to get through
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# [18:57] <jgraham> Unless someone had the good sense to make the webapps charter "more or less anything involving technologies to be used in web pages that browsers are interested in implementing"
# [18:57] <jgraham> or similar
# [18:58] <rafaelw> Yeah, I'm aware of the dissatisfaction with the process overhead at w3c.
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# [18:58] <jgraham> Well I'm not saying that going through W3C is a bad idea
# [18:58] <jgraham> There are definite upsides
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# [18:59] <rafaelw> Unfortunately, MSFT isn't able to work through w3c, and they're being very supportive of this problem space and I think they have alot of experience to bring to the discussion.
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# [18:59] <rafaelw> I'm hoping (maybe naively) that the consensus/process overhead won't be too bad.
# [18:59] <jgraham> Anyway, like I said, we are more than happy to look at idea that come through the webapps list
# [19:00] <jgraham> Yeah, maybe it will be fine
# [19:00] <rafaelw> Ok. We've prototyped our ideas as a js shim and are working to get that to a sensible state and have docs that answer all of the obvious questions about it.
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# [19:01] <rafaelw> I've got to go through the google open source process to release that. I'm hoping to email public-webapps and reference the docs/prototype within a week or two.
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# [19:01] <jgraham> Actually it looks like the webapps charter is pretty vauge. So that's good
# [19:01] <bga_> more and more ppl refuses to update browsers. internet becomes unsecure(pushState, fs access, system info, clipboard, ect), eat battery(webgl, css3), annoys(css3). ppl want old plain html :)
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# [19:01] <jgraham> Out of interest, does this involve markup additions? If so it might be a target for HTMLWg rather than webapps
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# [19:02] <jgraham> (yes I just engaged in the process wrangling I was previously lambasting)
# [19:02] <rafaelw> Yes.
# [19:03] <rafaelw> Jonas, Hixie and Maciej have all suggested public-webapps under roughly the idea that this work is largely related to XBL2.
# [19:03] <jgraham> Fair enough
# [19:04] <jgraham> It's pretty novel for a webapps spec to add markup (the new XBL draft notwithstanding)
# [19:04] <rafaelw> Anyhow, I'm trying to be care about approaching this problem because "templating" and "databinding" are so overloaded with meaning and there are so many existing approaches.
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# [19:04] <rafaelw> s/care/cafeful
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# [19:15] <AryehGregor> This list of HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERRs is ridiculous: http://aryeh.name/tmp/dom-range.html#dom-range-insertnode
# [19:16] <AryehGregor> And it's not even comprehensive, because I don't have to worry about the insertion node being a PI or DocumentType.
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# [19:16] <AryehGregor> [110414 13:12:48] <AryehGregor> This list of HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERRs is ridiculous: http://aryeh.name/tmp/dom-range.html#dom-range-insertnode
# [19:16] <AryehGregor> [110414 13:13:07] <AryehGregor> And it's not even comprehensive, because I don't have to worry about the insertion node being a PI or DocumentType.
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# [19:16] * AryehGregor is pretty sure this is not the right way to spec it
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# [20:38] <AryehGregor> Okay, so now I got IE9 to create a node whose parent is null and whose previousSibling is not null.
# [20:38] <AryehGregor> Someone there really needs to look into making their DOM implementation a bit more failsafe.
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# [20:40] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/929
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# [20:52] <Ms2ger`> s/DOM //
# [20:53] <AryehGregor> I've mostly noticed DOM inconsistencies.
# [20:54] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger`, could I convert DOM Range to use the preprocessor I wrote for the edit commands spec? It's unspeakably obnoxious to have to type all those tags again and again and again and again. http://aryeh.name/gitweb.cgi?p=editcommands;a=blob_plain;f=preprocess;hb=HEAD
# [20:54] <Ms2ger`> I'd rather you didn't, to be honest
# [20:54] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
# [20:54] <AryehGregor> Don't you agree that the current syntax is horrifyingly bad to type, though?
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# [20:55] <Ms2ger`> I end up copy-pasting a lot :)
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Me too, but it's still awful.
# [20:55] <AryehGregor> Other anolis specs aren't nearly as bad, because they don't have the cross-spec xrefs.
# [20:56] <AryehGregor> Maybe I could just write it my way and then preprocess it before commit.
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# [20:58] <Ms2ger`> Heh, that works
# [20:59] <AryehGregor> As long as I don't need to edit existing stuff.
# [21:01] <mpilgrim> when in doubt, add a layer of abstraction
# [21:02] <AryehGregor> Works for brevity.
# [21:02] <mpilgrim> i don't see how this plan can possibly fail
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# [21:03] <AryehGregor> Nor me, since I've been using it for my own spec for a while now.
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# [21:22] <jgraham> mpilgrim: It appears that AryehGregor has +5 against sarcasm
# [21:22] <jgraham> your weapons are useless here
# [21:22] <jgraham> :)
# [21:22] <AryehGregor> jgraham, in fact, I once shelled out the money to get "protection from sarcasm" cast on me with "permanency".
# [21:23] <AryehGregor> The only thing I have to worry about is "dispel magic".
# [21:23] <AryehGregor> But I have good Will saves.
# [21:23] <AryehGregor> The Nerd class gets bad Fortitude saves, but good Reflex and Will.
# [21:23] <AryehGregor> (good Reflex saves stemming, of course, from all the video games)
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# [22:28] <Hixie> AryehGregor: no specific plan yet, but my vague plan was to rip out the execCommand stuff in the spec right now and split your stuff amongst the HTML spec, the DOM Core spec, and the DOM Range spec as appropriate (might not be anything in the latter two, haven't checked)
# [22:29] <AryehGregor> Hixie, k. Still a while yet till we have to think about it.
# [22:29] <Hixie> jgraham: i imagine that the stuff rafaelw is working on, if it goes anywhere, would likely end up in HTML itself. but it didn't seem public-html would be a good place to discuss it.
# [22:29] <Hixie> AryehGregor: k
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# [22:36] <Lachy> reading the logs, what exactly is that templating/databinding stuff that rafaelw is working on? Is it like an alternative to XBL2, or something that works with XBL2 or something completely different?
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# [22:53] <jgraham> Hixie: Can't say I disagree with that assessment
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# [22:54] <Hixie> Lachy: from what i understand, he's looking more at something like the repetition templates stuff (but done much better) than a widget system like XBL.
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# [23:27] <erlehmann> > I propose to address this issue by ensuring that all drawing operations are done in linear space.
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# [23:27] <erlehmann> first i was like LOL TROLLING but then …
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# [23:33] <AryehGregor> Is setting location.hash synchronous?
# [23:33] * AryehGregor suspects not
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# [23:35] <AryehGregor> Because it's really the same as setting location.href, right?
# [23:35] <zewt> erlehmann: as opposed to Mr. Application Cache ......
# [23:36] <erlehmann> zewt, step 1: submit proposal. step 2: ??? step 3: GOTO 1
# [23:36] <zewt> "please stop busy looping the mailing list"
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# [23:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: yt?
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# [23:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm looking for advice on how to handle this url decision
# [23:51] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
# [23:51] <Hixie> othermaciej: the revert i'm supposed to do no longer applies, the spec has changed a lot since then, and i'm wondering what i should be aiming for
# [23:52] <Hixie> othermaciej: is it just putting a definition for "parse" and "resolve" back into the spec, or something else?
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)