/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 15 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think the crux of the decision is that the spec should directly define URI parsing (and relative resolution)
  7. # [00:01] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  8. # [00:01] <Hixie> the CP selected doesn't define URI parsing directly
  9. # [00:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you have to refactor the content to match the rest of the spec, I think that would be fine, particularly if Adam doesn't object (which I highly doubt he would)
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> it defines it as a diff of the URL spec
  11. # [00:02] <othermaciej> ah
  12. # [00:02] <othermaciej> well, anyway, I think refactoring the content as part of the original landing would be fine
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie> k
  14. # [00:02] <othermaciej> fixing any bugs with the algorithms would also be fine, but preferably as separate changes
  15. # [00:03] <Hixie> yeah this is gonna be messy enough as it is without fixing bugs at the same time
  16. # [00:03] <othermaciej> I don't think Adam (or anyone else who cares about this) will be excessively picky
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  18. # [00:03] <Hixie> oh i'm sure julian will be
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  23. # [00:05] <othermaciej> did he express a preference in the poll?
  24. # [00:05] <Hixie> he's the reason this all happened in the first place, no?
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  26. # [00:05] <Hixie> maybe i just assume it's him because it involved the ietf and not violating other specs
  27. # [00:06] <othermaciej> I honestly can't remember who started it
  28. # [00:06] <othermaciej> his opinion on the poll was to go back to the drawing board and have Roy Fielding write some text
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  32. # [00:06] <othermaciej> thus, I expect him to hate anything you do regardless
  33. # [00:06] <Hixie> that's a given
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  35. # [00:07] <Hixie> i'd be fine with roy writing the text, fwiw. i don't at all care who writes it so long as (a) it's written and (b) it's not fiction.
  36. # [00:08] <Hixie> ooh, my script congratulated me for fixing two outstanding XXX issue markers
  37. # [00:08] <Hixie> (the XXXs i had for defining "parse" and "resolve")
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  46. # [00:22] * Hixie brings the url feedback back into his bucket of active feedback
  47. # [00:23] <Hixie> (50 e-mails dating back up to 2009)
  48. # [00:23] <Hixie> abarth: what's the status of the url work?
  49. # [00:23] <abarth> Hixie: status is that I have a bunch of time next week blocked off to work on it
  50. # [00:24] <Hixie> ok well the html spec just got its old text back
  51. # [00:24] <abarth> i saw
  52. # [00:24] <abarth> sorry if this is creating busy work for you
  53. # [00:24] <Hixie> eh no worries
  54. # [00:24] <abarth> the good news is that stpete seems interested in actually solving this problem
  55. # [00:25] <Hixie> stpete?
  56. # [00:25] <abarth> http://stpeter.im/
  57. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Oh, Grid is a new proposal by Microsoft? Wasn't there something like it floating around for a long time?
  58. # [00:25] <abarth> APPS area AD
  59. # [00:25] <Hixie> oh peter
  60. # [00:26] <Hixie> k
  61. # [00:26] <Hixie> so this is gonna be done like the cookie thing?
  62. # [00:26] <abarth> hopefully
  63. # [00:27] <abarth> peter seems to understand that the HTML WG wants a spec by LC
  64. # [00:27] <Hixie> well that's ok, we'll be in LC for years
  65. # [00:28] <abarth> he wants a spec in six months
  66. # [00:28] <abarth> including discussion
  67. # [00:28] <abarth> so, that means we need one mostly written soon
  68. # [00:28] <boogyman> lol, good luck with that
  69. # [00:28] <Hixie> isn't this an area for which discussion is pretty much not needed?
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  71. # [00:28] <Hixie> i mean, it's not like anything is being designed here
  72. # [00:28] <Hixie> it's just describing reality
  73. # [00:28] <Hixie> anyway
  74. # [00:29] <Hixie> if you want to do this at ietf, that's your prerogative
  75. # [00:29] <abarth> i don't particularly care where it gets done
  76. # [00:29] <Hixie> is this going to include the API you were talking about? or is that separate?
  77. # [00:29] <Hixie> i noticed File API has created a URL object
  78. # [00:29] <abarth> that's separate
  79. # [00:29] <Hixie> k
  80. # [00:30] <abarth> the main thing that needs to happen is for me or someone to spend time and actually write up the spec
  81. # [00:30] <Hixie> k
  82. # [00:30] <abarth> once we have that, then we can see who's interested in publishing it
  83. # [00:31] <Hixie> well, my plan is to basically see what happens, and if nothing happens when i get around to looking at the url feedback i just threw back on my pile, i'll just start going through that feedback and fix the stuff in the html spec
  84. # [00:31] <Hixie> we can always extract it out again later
  85. # [00:31] <Hixie> though it would be nice to have a spec that doesn't defer to the URI spec
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  87. # [00:32] <Hixie> what would be even nicer is a spec that obsoletes the URI and IRI specs altogether, goes back to calling everything URLs, and defines syntax and parsing and resolving all in one place, including error handling.
  88. # [00:32] <Hixie> then i could just point straight to one document instead of having to juggle who's in charge of what
  89. # [00:32] <abarth> that's politically more difficult
  90. # [00:33] <abarth> my current plan is to have an object in the spec that can be parsed from a sequence of characters
  91. # [00:33] <abarth> and serialized to a URI
  92. # [00:33] <abarth> I think the current spec calls that a ParsedURL
  93. # [00:34] <abarth> but i haven't looked at the document for a while
  94. # [00:34] <Hixie> current spec?
  95. # [00:34] <Hixie> oh the one you are doing?
  96. # [00:34] <Hixie> k
  97. # [00:34] <abarth> https://github.com/abarth/url-spec/blob/master/drafts/url.xml
  98. # [00:34] <abarth> there's not much there now
  99. # [00:34] <Hixie> well so long as you define parse and resolve in terms that work for the spec, that's fine by me for now
  100. # [00:34] <abarth> but hopefully there will be more in a couple weeks
  101. # [00:34] <Hixie> (that work for the html spec, that is)
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  103. # [00:35] <abarth> a bunch of IETF folks seem very excited about the IDNA aspects of this issue
  104. # [00:35] <Hixie> o_O
  105. # [00:35] <abarth> which seem uninteresting to me
  106. # [00:35] <abarth> i don't plan to include anything about IDNA
  107. # [00:36] <Hixie> there's gonna have to be something about idna, so you can parse iris
  108. # [00:36] <Hixie> but i don't see what there's to get excited about
  109. # [00:36] <othermaciej> abarth: when he says "by LC" does he mean "by the point of entering LC", or "by the point of leaving LC" (which most people might call "by CR")
  110. # [00:37] <othermaciej> the former is probably about a month away, and the latter more than a year away, by my sestimate
  111. # [00:37] <abarth> Hixie: i'm just going to say what the cookie spec says, which is "do the IDNA thing to make this ascii"
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  113. # [00:37] <abarth> othermaciej: he seems to have about six months in mind at a timeframe
  114. # [00:37] <abarth> i don't know where he's getting that timeframe from
  115. # [00:38] <abarth> tlr has also been involved in these discussions, so maybe that part comes from him?
  116. # [00:38] <Hixie> abarth: yeah i think that's pretty much what the html spec says currently
  117. # [00:38] <Hixie> abarth: there's a little more to it, e.g. handling errors from ToAscii, but not much
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  119. # [00:39] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: Yes, Grid Layout is basically a slightly more powerful version of Template Layout.
  120. # [00:39] <TabAtkins_> Lachy: Do you still need to know about the data-binding stuff? I had my computer off for a bit, so I missed if anyone talked to you in the interim.
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  123. # [00:50] <Lachy> TabAtkins_, I'm just curious about what the proposal is and how it will work. But I can wait till the proposal gets sent to the mailing list
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  139. # [01:16] <Hixie> i love that one of leif's arguments for making border=1 valid was "93% of table elements in the wild have the border attribute set"
  140. # [01:16] <Hixie> nevermind that most have it set to 0...
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  144. # [01:23] <othermaciej> does explicit border=0 have any effect?
  145. # [01:26] <Hixie> not in most browsers
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  165. # [02:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: so what it decided if i should apply http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10066#c37 ?
  166. # [02:01] <Hixie> s/what/was/
  167. # [02:01] <othermaciej> Hixie: if no one complains by tomorrow AM then I'll say the coast is clear
  168. # [02:01] <Hixie> oh it's by tomorrow, ok
  169. # [02:01] <othermaciej> (so far no objections afaict)
  170. # [02:01] <Hixie> i thought it was today
  171. # [02:02] <Hixie> ok well there are two open WGDecision bugs i haven't applied, that one and the one i just mailed you about
  172. # [02:02] <Hixie> other than that i'm done with applying decisions, i believe
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  179. # [02:10] <othermaciej> that's good
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  181. # [02:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok; I flagged your mail on 131
  182. # [02:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think other than those two bugs, there are only three issues pending action (31/80 decision, and 152 survey or whatever other resolution comes about)
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  184. # [02:14] <Hixie> before the arbitrary LC publication, anyway :-)
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  266. # [05:49] <heycam> where is application/x-www-form-urlencoded defined?
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  291. # [07:10] <Hixie> heycam: defined in what sense?
  292. # [07:11] <heycam> defined as in if you have this input dictionary of values, how do you turn it into a string of characters/bytes
  293. # [07:11] <heycam> s/values/key-value pairs/
  294. # [07:11] <Hixie> the encoding algorithm is defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#application/x-www-form-urlencoded-encoding-algorithm
  295. # [07:12] <heycam> Hixie, great, thanks. I didn't find that before for some reason, looking in the forms section.
  296. # [07:12] <heycam> although I see it's only a couple of page downs from where I was reading, so don't know why I missed it :)
  297. # [07:13] <Hixie> or just search for "application/x-www-form-urlencoded" in the spec, there's only 16 hits :-)
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  372. # [10:54] <hsivonen> can someone explain to me what profiles "profiles was feedback from the TV industry at TPAC 2010 HTML WG F2F" is referring to in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html ?
  373. # [10:54] * Joins: cedricv (~cedric@180.129.91.125)
  374. # [10:55] <hsivonen> on the face of things, "profiles" and "TV industry" in one sentence looks like something that's not One Webby
  375. # [10:55] <Hixie> it's almost certainly what you're interpreting it as
  376. # [10:55] <Hixie> (the tv industry doesn't understand "one web")
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  378. # [10:59] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I'm basically never the right person from Opera for any CSS WG stuff :)
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  380. # [11:00] <benschwarz> Hixie: heyp
  381. # [11:00] <benschwarz> heyo
  382. # [11:00] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I remember there being some TV people at TPAC, but I don't recall them asking for "profiles"
  383. # [11:00] <Hixie> benschwarz: hey, sup
  384. # [11:00] <benschwarz> Hixie, just home from work
  385. # [11:00] <othermaciej> but sometimes the a11y telecon minutes are confused
  386. # [11:01] <benschwarz> Hixie, are you based in SF / mountain view?
  387. # [11:01] <Hixie> yes
  388. # [11:01] <benschwarz> Hixie, I'll be in SF in 2 weeks
  389. # [11:02] <benschwarz> also, any thoughts on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12491 ?
  390. # [11:02] <Hixie> if you're up for coming up to mountain view, i'd be happy to invite you to lunch at google when you're here - drop me a line with dates that would work for you (i don't have my calendar right now)
  391. # [11:02] <Hixie> that bug seems reasonable
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  393. # [11:02] <hsivonen> "<oedipus> plus 1 to judy -- W3C process different from "WG process" set up by chairs, but they are following cookie-cutter process which is detrimental to development of spec"
  394. # [11:03] <benschwarz> Hixie, I was planning to organise a lunch with some heads in SF
  395. # [11:03] <hsivonen> so who, these days, is thinking that the HTML WG Decision Process is good for the development of the spec?
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  397. # [11:03] <benschwarz> KuraFire, paul_irish and some others…\
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  399. # [11:04] <Hixie> cool
  400. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: nobody being happy is not a good indicator of badness in this kind of thing
  401. # [11:04] <Hixie> hsivonen: (but having said that, i do think it's bad :-) )
  402. # [11:05] <benschwarz> Hixie, I'll email a group when I've got my bizness together ;)
  403. # [11:05] <Hixie> cool
  404. # [11:05] <benschwarz> I was thinking saturday the 30th of April
  405. # [11:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Presumably a majority of the chairs think it is good
  406. # [11:08] <jgraham> Although it is possible that they all beleive it is bad but think that the others both think it is good I suppose
  407. # [11:10] <Hixie> oh wow, it's late
  408. # [11:10] <Hixie> nn
  409. # [11:10] <jgraham> gn
  410. # [11:10] <othermaciej> politics is the art of the possible
  411. # [11:12] <jgraham> Which is another way of saying you think it is the best possible process
  412. # [11:12] <jgraham> Presumably
  413. # [11:13] <Hixie> politics shouldn't (and needn't) be a factor here, fwiw.
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  415. # [11:17] <Lachy> The ridiculous HTMLWG process is one of the major reason I've reduced my involvement in that disfunctional group.
  416. # [11:17] <jgraham> It's not really clear that can be true unless you are using a different definition of politics
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  418. # [11:20] <jgraham> (in particular, even if you use a data-driven process, which is good, the weighting applied to different bits of data is basically a political decision)
  419. # [11:21] <othermaciej> any process that involves more than one human is a form of politics
  420. # [11:22] <jgraham> I think that is a broader definition of "politics" than most people would use
  421. # [11:24] <othermaciej> that was meant to be a non-tautological assertion, not a definition
  422. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, because many people want claim that what they are involved in is not political in any way
  423. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> ceding decision-making authority to somebody else is political decision
  424. # [11:24] <othermaciej> though Wikipedia's one-liner, "Politics is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions", seems pretty broad and about what I had in mind
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  429. # [11:32] <jgraham> othermaciej: Ah, if you had narrowed the scope to "decision making process" that might be more reasonable
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  431. # [11:33] <othermaciej> I'm trying to think of interactions that involve more than one person which do not involve making any decisions, or even any attempts to influence decisions
  432. # [11:34] <othermaciej> I suppose if one person murders another in their sleep, solely for the thrill of it
  433. # [11:36] <zcorpan> doooods! microsoft weren't first! google came up with 'native html5'! here's proof: http://www.html5rocks.com/tutorials/dnd/basics/
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  487. # [14:22] <Ms2ger> /.: "Maqetta: Open Source HTML5 Editor From IBM" (http://rly.cc/7MXVe)
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  491. # [14:23] <dhx1> Ms2ger: native support right?
  492. # [14:25] <asmodai> eh, 6.0 FF nightlies. 5 is being skipped? :P
  493. # [14:25] <hsivonen> asmodai: 5 is in the Aurora channel
  494. # [14:26] <hsivonen> asmodai: the 5 train has left central already
  495. # [14:26] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: I wonder if that tool has any connection to Rich S's <canvas> accessibility concerns
  496. # [14:27] <asmodai> wait, wait, aurora channel? :|
  497. # [14:27] * asmodai looks around
  498. # [14:27] <hsivonen> asmodai: http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2011/04/13/new-channels-for-firefox-rapid-releases/
  499. # [14:28] <asmodai> yeah, was looking at the channel page at the moment
  500. # [14:33] <erlehmann> they just want to blow up version numbers
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  502. # [14:34] <asmodai> mmm
  503. # [14:34] <erlehmann> on slashdot, in the IE10 thread, one message stuck me as particularly insightful: “ten? my browser version goes up to eleven!”
  504. # [14:34] <asmodai> aurora doesn't seem to jive with -no-remote anymore :S
  505. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> More like, nobody cares about version numbers, so we just picked the easiest one
  506. # [14:34] <asmodai> Mmm, but most likely I'm doing it wrong again *tries again*
  507. # [14:35] <asmodai> ah there we go
  508. # [14:39] <GlitchMr> erlehmann: I think it's Google Chrome
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  510. # [14:39] <asmodai> Mmm, but can't run aurora and nightly together though.
  511. # [14:39] <asmodai> Despite different installation locations and different profiles.
  512. # [14:40] <wilhelm> 5 is being skipped again? :P
  513. # [14:40] <erlehmann> GlitchMr, :>
  514. # [14:40] <hsivonen> erlehmann: Opera had better stop tweaking minor version to stay ahead of Chrome
  515. # [14:40] <hdhoang> the new fx codename scheme is neat
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  517. # [14:41] <hsivonen> GlitchMr: Opera is the one that goes to 11. Chrome's stable release is still at 10.
  518. # [14:41] <asmodai> wilhelm: aurora is 5
  519. # [14:41] <GlitchMr> Oh, right
  520. # [14:41] <GlitchMr> lol
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  522. # [14:41] <GlitchMr> For me it's just 9.80
  523. # [14:41] <hdhoang> WebKit over five hundred
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  525. # [14:42] <hsivonen> hdhoang: yet, Apple ships Safari as 5. They are missing a hundredfold win here.
  526. # [14:42] <GlitchMr> If user agent says me it's Opera/9.80, it must be it... (I'm kinda confused on browsers user agents)
  527. # [14:42] <wilhelm> GlitchMr: Yes, thanks to broken browser sniffing scripts, 10 < 9.
  528. # [14:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So there's now moz-central, aurora, beta, and final?
  529. # [14:43] <GlitchMr> I don't use those
  530. # [14:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes
  531. # [14:43] <erlehmann> Opera 9.80 is the eternal version.
  532. # [14:43] <hsivonen> gsnedders: except the beta channel will take 6 weeks to appear
  533. # [14:44] <asmodai> I wonder what aurora and nightly are sharing together now that you cannot run them at the same time.
  534. # [14:44] <gsnedders> So what's the flow from moz-central to Aurora?
  535. # [14:44] <GlitchMr> All I do is checking by proper header if browser accepts xhtml+xml header and send it if it supports.
  536. # [14:44] <hsivonen> gsnedders: every 6 weeks
  537. # [14:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: the first ever move from central to aurora happened on Tuesday this week
  538. # [14:45] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So for something to ship you have possibly just under six weeks m-c to Aurora, six weeks to Beta, then six weeks to Final? So everything has a 12–18 week lead time?
  539. # [14:45] <gsnedders> Compared with Chrome's 6–12 week lead time?
  540. # [14:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: in six weeks, current aurora becomes beta and a new aurora begins with what's in central
  541. # [14:46] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Right, yeah. But to get from central to final takes 12–18 weeks, if I understand correctly?
  542. # [14:46] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yeah
  543. # [14:47] <GlitchMr> If my document validates to XHTML5, it's probably good :P
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  545. # [14:47] * gsnedders finds the difference (by having another stage) between Fx and Ch interesting
  546. # [14:48] <GlitchMr> It's not like HTML5 is cure for all problems. I just use it for semantic elements and placeholder="".
  547. # [14:48] * jgraham wonders if anyone has got mozilla-trunk from the ubuntu ppa
  548. # [14:48] <hsivonen> gsnedders: does Chrome actually land new features on dev? I thought dev and aurora were analogous.
  549. # [14:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I thought they did
  550. # [14:49] <jgraham> I see the package listed as providing firefox-6 on the webpage
  551. # [14:49] <jgraham> But it isn't there in synaptic after I reload
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  554. # [14:52] <jgraham> Oooh it works today
  555. # [14:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Oh, they do have a channel above dev, my bad
  556. # [14:52] <GlitchMr> All those <canvas>es are abstract for me. It might look cool in all those JS demos, but I don't have reason to use it for serious page.
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  559. # [14:53] <erlehmann> serious <canvas> is serious element
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  562. # [14:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: It doesn't allow you to have central and fx4 installed at once though
  563. # [14:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: Firefox 4 is so old hat
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  567. # [15:00] <jgraham> (which makes loads of sense. obviously.)
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  569. # [15:07] <zcorpan> erlehmann: This is the Internet. And it is serious business.
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  572. # [15:09] <erlehmann> zcorpan, it is. i'm in my bet, chatting on IRC instead of going to the internet conference half an hour away.
  573. # [15:09] <erlehmann> bed
  574. # [15:10] <erlehmann> such is life in the internets :>
  575. # [15:11] <aho> i use canvas for games
  576. # [15:11] <aho> wasting time is serious business (on the internet) :>
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  588. # [15:45] <zcorpan> are we publishing LC on april 22? or may 22?
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  592. # [15:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: othermaciej said about a month so I guess May 22nd
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  606. # [16:16] <zcorpan> so what is the april 22 date?
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  608. # [16:16] <jgraham> Which April 22nd date?
  609. # [16:17] <jcranmer> the April 22 date is the day that April 22 falls on
  610. # [16:17] <jcranmer> usually
  611. # [16:19] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/E3EACD022300B94D88613639CF4E25F81A1E7330@TK5EX14MBXC134.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
  612. # [16:19] <zcorpan> so we're aming for last call on may 24
  613. # [16:21] <zcorpan> april 22 is when all decisions need to be implemented
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  626. # [16:43] <jgraham> lol at bug 12500
  627. # [16:44] <zcorpan> url?
  628. # [16:45] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/bug-12500-2486@http.www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/>
  629. # [16:45] <zcorpan> heh
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  631. # [16:47] <zcorpan> annevk: you're not supposed to be reading specs while on vacation. you're not supposed to be reading this, either.
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  651. # [17:12] * jwalden is curious about that Peruvian beer
  652. # [17:12] <jwalden> probably no Guinness, tho
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  690. # [18:06] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, too bad, you were the only CSSWG member from Opera that I know.
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  692. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> Hot damn, this is a beautiful abuse of gradients: http://leaverou.me/css3patterns/
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  697. # [18:10] * shiawuen_ is now known as shiawuen
  698. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that's a pretty cool hack.
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  702. # [18:16] <wilhelm> Oh, fun. registerProtocolHandler("mail.google.com", "http://evilsite.com/%s", "Friendly Innocent Site") seems to be valid.
  703. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> For when the user types "mail.google.com" without the "http(s)://" prefix, you mean?
  704. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> That's a nasty attack.
  705. # [18:17] <wilhelm> Yes, or follows a link.
  706. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> They still need to also put a colon in, right? Like "mail.google.com:page"?
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  708. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> Easy fix: don't allow registerProtocolHandler() to register a name with a dot, and only let it handle things if the user types a colon after the protocol.
  709. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Still definitely non-obvious, of course.
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  711. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> (the latter to prevent issues with users just typing a one-word search term)
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  715. # [18:19] <wilhelm> TabAtkins: Yes. But a link saying mail.google.com:/mail looks completely innocent.
  716. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Oh, well, that's not much of an attack.
  717. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> I thought you were saying it would work if the user just typed "mail.google.com".
  718. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Into the URL bar.
  719. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> If you have to get them to allow the site to register a protocol handler, *and* then to follow links that may or may not look legitimate to them, that's really not much of an attack surface.
  720. # [18:20] <AryehGregor> If you can register the protocol handler to start with, they're already viewing your malicious site, so enabling phishing isn't a huge issue here.
  721. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> I'd think that the link wilhelm provides looks pretty legit to basically everyone.
  722. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Not necessarily true. <iframe> hack in an ad-based attack, maybe?
  723. # [18:21] <wilhelm> It's a quite complicated attack vector, yes.
  724. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> I think that basically everyone doesn't look at URLs, and that the ones that do wouldn't be any more confused by "mail.google.com:/mail" than "http://mail.google.foo.com".
  725. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, they're still viewing your malicious site. If the <iframe> isn't sandboxed, they can navigate the parent frame, no?
  726. # [18:22] <wilhelm> “mail.google.com:” seems to be enough.
  727. # [18:22] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  728. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> With the colon. So not a big deal at all.
  729. # [18:22] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  730. # [18:23] <Philip`> "mail.google.com:80" ?
  731. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> Schemes are apparently allowed to contain dots.
  732. # [18:23] <wilhelm> Philip`: Oh, that's ugly. That would trick me.
  733. # [18:23] <AryehGregor> But I don't think it would be a big deal if we banned dots from schemes for registerProtocolHandler(), unless people actually use them.
  734. # [18:23] <Philip`> "localhost:80"
  735. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I thought of that. In current Chrome, that wouldn't even display differently from http://mail.google.com:80/, right?
  736. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> Either in the URL bar or in the hover-over.
  737. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> Philip`, ouch.
  738. # [18:24] <wilhelm> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.1 says dots are allowed. I'm not sure that's a great idea.
  739. # [18:24] <Philip`> People seem to put a lot of effort into avoiding IDNs that look a lot like ASCII domain names to avoid phishing, so it seems bad if you can put domain names anywhere else in the URL
  740. # [18:24] <Philip`> rather than saying it's "not much of an attack"
  741. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> There are some TLDs that resolve to websites too, like "to".
  742. # [18:24] <wilhelm> Disallowing dots won't help localhost:80. Hrm.
  743. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Although Chrome seems to refuse to connect to "http://to/", it wants "http://to./".
  744. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Disallow dots and special-case localhost.
  745. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Philip`, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do something about it, but it's not a very severe attack.
  746. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Initially I thought it was extremely bad.
  747. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> But it seems not.
  748. # [18:26] <Philip`> "anyserveronlocalnetwork:80"
  749. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Okay, but that's already a very specialized attack right there.
  750. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> And I don't see what to do about it.
  751. # [18:26] <wilhelm> “192.168.1.1:80”
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  756. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> wilhelm, dots.
  757. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Don't allow dots.
  758. # [18:28] <Philip`> "[::1]:80"
  759. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Brackets and colons aren't even allowed in schems.
  760. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> schemes.
  761. # [18:28] <Philip`> Alas
  762. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> It has to be [a-z][a-z+\-.]*.
  763. # [18:29] <Philip`> (That scheme doesn't have a colon, actually)
  764. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> Oh, it's just "[".
  765. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure that's not a valid URL regardless.
  766. # [18:29] <wilhelm> AryehGregor: That's what I was thinking too.
  767. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> Don't allow dots or "localhost", and don't allow invalid schemes per the RFC, and you should be fine.
  768. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> Does anyone use schemes with dots or minus signs? I've seen "svn+ssh".
  769. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> (for plus signs)
  770. # [18:30] <wilhelm> xmlrpc.beep, soap.beep, iris.beep are IANA-registered schemes using the dot. But I suppose that's not particularly useful for web browsers.
  771. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> "z39.50r"
  772. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> http://ftp.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/uri/rfc2056.txt
  773. # [18:30] <wilhelm> Oh, that one too.
  774. # [18:30] <Philip`> Hmm, digits aren't allowed?
  775. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> Oh, they are.
  776. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> I misremembered.
  777. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> Although not as the first character.
  778. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> http://labs.apache.org/webarch/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html#scheme
  779. # [18:31] <wilhelm> Yes, they are.
  780. # [18:31] <AryehGregor> [a-z][a-z0-9+\-.]*
  781. # [18:31] * Philip` had just got to "ut2004" in the list
  782. # [18:31] <Philip`> "view-source:"
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  792. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, so did you forward it to someone who can give an answer or what?
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  797. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Since I have WebKit on my side, I'm pretty sure that agreement by either Microsoft or Mozilla would be enough, but agreement by Opera couldn't hurt.
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  799. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> (I'm pretty sure everyone will agree with me, but if not, then I'd be interested to hear what they have to say)
  800. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> I assume I'm off the hook, since Niwa and Hyatt already said no?
  801. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes, I'm fine on WebKit.
  802. # [18:39] <AryehGregor> smaug____, since you asked before, I specced insertNode() yesterday: <http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#dom-range-insertnode> I have to review the test results a little more before I'll call the spec final, but I'm pretty sure it won't need substantial revision.
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  806. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> smaug____, also, since you're here, would you happen to have any feedback on this? I don't know if you're the right person to ask, but figure I might as well. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Apr/0484.html
  807. # [18:41] <smaug____> AryehGregor: actually I'm trying to not be here today. I should recover from jetlag
  808. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> smaug____, ah, okay. Good luck at that. :)
  809. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> It's not urgent at all, I'm just being impatient. :)
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  814. # [18:49] <smaug____> AryehGregor: so is it specified somewhere else in your spec what happens to the end offset
  815. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> smaug____, it just follows the regular range mutation rules.
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  817. # [18:49] <smaug____> AryehGregor: especially when start and end offset are the smae
  818. # [18:49] <smaug____> er, same
  819. # [18:49] <smaug____> I mean, if the range is collapsed and you do insertNode
  820. # [18:49] * AryehGregor looks
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  822. # [18:50] <smaug____> AryehGregor: ok, I assume the mutation rules handle that correctly that neither of the offsets change
  823. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> smaug____, from the rules at <http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#range-behavior-under-document-mutation>: if the range is collapsed in an Element/Document/DocumentFragment, then the offset of the range doesn't change, so the node winds up outside the selection.
  824. # [18:50] <smaug____> ok
  825. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> If it's in a comment node, it will stay in the comment node, which will wind up after the node.
  826. # [18:50] <smaug____> that is compatible with DOM 2 Range
  827. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> If it's a text node, it will be split and wind up at the end of the first node, so before the new node.
  828. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> In no case will it contain the new node.
  829. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> However, this is one of the things that I was planning on looking at more closely today.
  830. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> I might decide to change that part, depending on my analysis of how current browsers behave and what makes sense.
  831. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> Since if the range isn't collapsed, then in most cases it will wind up containing the new node.
  832. # [18:51] <smaug____> AryehGregor: webkit does against DOM 2 Range
  833. # [18:52] <smaug____> Gecko does what DOM 2 Range says
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  836. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Well, new specs are allowed to contradict older ones, right? Especially if we don't have interop on the original spec.
  837. # [18:52] <smaug____> acid3 allows both behaviors
  838. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Anyway, I'll let you know what I decide. Of course, it's subject to people actually being willing to implement it.
  839. # [18:52] <smaug____> I wouldn't want to special case mutation handling for one case
  840. # [18:53] <smaug____> consistency is a good thing
  841. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> We already have special cases for deleteContents() and extractContents().
  842. # [18:53] <AryehGregor> And whoa, my tests became insanely faster when I passed info to iframes by setting a variable on the iframe's window instead of passing info in the hash.
  843. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> No navigation required. Now it's like 13 seconds in Chrome instead of a minute.
  844. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> Also, we have a special case for splitText().
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  846. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> I'd say that it makes the author-visible behavior sensible if we can allow an invariant like "after insertNode(), the new node will always be contained in the range".
  847. # [18:54] <AryehGregor> But we can't actually do that unless we split comments, which seems unreasonable.
  848. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> (and no browser does it)
  849. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> s/sensible/simpler/
  850. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> So I'm inclined to say no special case right now, since we can't make really useful guarantees anyway.
  851. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> The start of the range will always have to fall before the new node in some cases and after in others, and so will the end.
  852. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Because of comments.
  853. # [18:56] <smaug____> I need to look at what special cases you mean with delete/extractContents and splitText
  854. # [18:56] <smaug____> I'll
  855. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> delete/extractContents() guarantee that the range will be collapsed afterwards.
  856. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> That's only possible by special-casing, because you might have something like <b>foo[</b>]bar where nothing is actually deleted but the selection isn't collapsed, for instance.
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  858. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Gecko currently implements no special case for splitText(), but WebKit does, and I've specced it because it makes a lot of sense. In particular, I'd need to add at least one extra special case to execCommand() if splitText() didn't have the special case, so I figured it made the most sense to make the special case more generally applicable.
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  861. # [18:58] <smaug____> what is the special case for splitText ?
  862. # [18:59] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@dsl092-049-179.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  863. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> smaug____, if you have something like foo[bar]baz as one text node, and you called splitText(4), then without special cases it would become foo[b] arbaz (space denoting text node break).
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  865. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> The special case is it becomes foo[b ar]baz instead, i.e., the endpoint gets moved to the new node if appropriate instead of being clamped.
  866. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> It's the first item here: <http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#range-behavior-under-document-mutation>
  867. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> There's one other special case I'm contemplating but haven't yet specced: if you have {foo} (range endpoints lying in the parent element, not in the text node) and split the node, you current get {fo } o, but {fo o} would make more sense. Not sure if it merits a special case, though, so I won't spec it unless I can come up with a solid justification for it.
  868. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> E.g., cases where execCommand() would have to special-case if I didn't special-case in splitText().
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  870. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> (roc agreed with the current spec's special case for splitText(), BTW)
  871. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> Oh, right. There are also different special cases for splitText() when the text node has a null parent. I could probably get rid of those, since that case is somewhat pathological anyway.
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  873. # [19:03] <smaug____> hmm, need to test how that splittext special case works with mutation events
  874. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I'm totally ignoring mutation events right now.
  875. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> I'm hoping they'll go away, but even if they don't, we don't have a spec for them, so it's hard for me to spec anything about them.
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  877. # [19:04] <smaug____> basically, at which point is the special case handled
  878. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> Since you can have mutation events firing in the middle of splitText() execution, right?
  879. # [19:04] <AryehGregor> That'll mess things up, yeah.
  880. # [19:04] <smaug____> right
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  882. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> So I really need to write what to do right after the new node is inserted, and what to do right after the old node's data is truncated.
  883. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Separately.
  884. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> As I said, I'll ignore it for now, but let me update the spec with an XXX to make it clearer.
  885. # [19:05] <smaug____> ok
  886. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> Thanks for the feedback.
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  888. # [19:06] <smaug____> atm gecko range implementation doesn't have, IIRC, any dom mutation related special cases
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  890. # [19:06] <smaug____> since it just uses internal mutation observer API
  891. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> Right, so I've been told.
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  893. # [19:07] <smaug____> so when dom is mutated, range doesn't know what actually changed the dom
  894. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> Do mutation events fire on data changes, or do you use some other technique for that?
  895. # [19:07] <smaug____> mutation events happen after mutation observer API methods are called
  896. # [19:07] <smaug____> in general
  897. # [19:08] <smaug____> though things like splitTExt causes several dom mutations
  898. # [19:08] <smaug____> removing text data, and creating a new node with same data as what was removed...
  899. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Ah, there's a DOMCharacterDataModified event.
  900. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> It's the insert that triggers the event, not the create, right? You can't detect the actual create?
  901. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Or the change of the data on the newly-created node.
  902. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Since it's not in a tree that you can have attached event handlers to.
  903. # [19:09] <smaug____> mutation events and range are still pretty bad combination, I admit. it is easy to crash webkit and there is at least a case when gecko goes to endless loop
  904. # [19:10] <smaug____> AryehGregor: right, insert triggers an event
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  910. # [19:16] <wilhelm> Good. The mail.google.com:80 trick doesn't work in either Firefox or my internal Opera build. That's treated as hostname:port. (mail.google.com:/ isn't, though.)
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  914. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Would be good to spec that.
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  920. # [19:24] <funkie> fml i suck
  921. # [19:24] <funkie> at html logic
  922. # [19:24] <funkie> so i have this website
  923. # [19:24] <funkie> its all done mostly
  924. # [19:25] <funkie> and I want to add a bade
  925. # [19:25] <funkie> badge that stays on the bottom left of the screen
  926. # [19:25] <funkie> and when hovered shows something
  927. # [19:25] <funkie> a tooltiop
  928. # [19:25] <funkie> the tooltip is done
  929. # [19:25] <funkie> but I can't get the image to go there :(
  930. # [19:25] <funkie> halp
  931. # [19:25] <aho> try #css or something
  932. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Try #css.
  933. # [19:25] <aho> heh
  934. # [19:25] <bfrohs> funkie: position:fixed;bottom:0;left:0;
  935. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> You most likely want position: fixed.
  936. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Works in all recent browsers, but I don't know about IE6.
  937. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> Man, browsers' misimplementation of DOMExceptions really creates loads of distracting failures.
  938. # [19:27] * Joins: jennb (~jennb@nat/google/x-enayxzdrujpbfhgh)
  939. # [19:28] <funkie> doesn't work
  940. # [19:28] <funkie> :(
  941. # [19:28] <AryehGregor> funkie, post a link to the page so people can debug it, if possible.
  942. # [19:29] <AryehGregor> Actually, I have a CSS question. What's some CSS to make a table fixed-layout, so it doesn't take forever to render if it's huge? That will actually work in all the most recent browsers, obviously I mean.
  943. # [19:29] <funkie> okok
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  945. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> table-layout:fixed
  946. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> Bases the rendering on only the first row, iirc.
  947. # [19:30] <AryehGregor> Is that actually supported in all browsers?
  948. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  949. # [19:30] <AryehGregor> I thought no one supported it in practice.
  950. # [19:30] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  951. # [19:30] * AryehGregor tests
  952. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> I've used it for years.
  953. # [19:30] * Quits: shinyak (~shinyak@nat/google/x-hswzpsxyspuczemt) (Remote host closed the connection)
  954. # [19:30] <AryehGregor> If I specify percentage widths or such with that, will they actually be interpreted strictly instead of as guidelines?
  955. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> Dunno about that. Table layout is voodoo at the best of times.
  956. # [19:31] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: I believe so, yes
  957. # [19:31] <funkie> ok
  958. # [19:31] <funkie> nerd-migs
  959. # [19:31] <funkie> migos
  960. # [19:33] * Joins: shinyak (~shinyak@nat/google/x-xtrgebnzauzijkjx)
  961. # [19:33] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I'm noticing no difference between the two tables here: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/930
  962. # [19:34] <funkie> www.pezbanana.com/aquarella/
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  965. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Hrm.
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  968. # [19:40] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Add width:500px; to each table
  969. # [19:40] <bfrohs> You'll notice the difference then
  970. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> I'm mainly aiming to speed up table layout here.
  971. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> Because a lot of the time it takes my huge tests to run in jgraham's framework is just table layout time.
  972. # [19:41] <AryehGregor> As far as I can observe -- it displays the results, but then keeps using 100% CPU for a number of seconds, then reflows the whole thing.
  973. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> Maybe I should use a different display value?
  974. # [19:42] <Philip`> Can you just split the table after every ~100 rows (and add a new row of headings)?
  975. # [19:42] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: If you set a width on the table, the layout time is greatly reduced by using fixed table layout
  976. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah! 'auto' width tables automatically use the 'auto' layout algorithm, regardless fo what you specify.
  977. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> Philip`, that would only help if the table layout algorithm is worse than linear, which I'm not sure it is (is it?).
  978. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  979. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yes, it is.
  980. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> So width: 100% will work?
  981. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> (worse than linear, that is)
  982. # [19:42] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Yup
  983. # [19:42] <TabAtkins> Possibly?
  984. # [19:43] * AryehGregor will try that in a second
  985. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> Answer: yes.
  986. # [19:43] <funkie> ok, here's the web in case you guys wanna check it out
  987. # [19:44] <funkie> www.pezbanana.com/aquarella
  988. # [19:44] <funkie> que ribbon doesn't show at all when set to position: fixed;
  989. # [19:44] <funkie> :/
  990. # [19:44] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@cpe-46-164-9-42.dynamic.amis.net)
  991. # [19:44] <bfrohs> funkie: You have width and height set to 0
  992. # [19:45] <bfrohs> funkie: Well, that's what it's computing to
  993. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Why doesn't someone specify what exceptions are actually supposed to look like? Ugh.
  994. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Like WebKit adds a "stack" string member, Gecko adds "lineNumber" and "fileName" . . .
  995. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> At least for some exceptions.
  996. # [19:48] <AryehGregor> Oh, Gecko does stack too.
  997. # [19:48] <funkie> oh
  998. # [19:48] <funkie> awesome, thanks a shitton
  999. # [19:48] <funkie> bfrohs
  1000. # [19:48] <funkie> :D
  1001. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> Formatted differently from WebKit, naturally.
  1002. # [19:49] <bfrohs> funkie: np. Consider using Chrome or installing Firebug for Firefox--will allow you to right-click > inspect elements to find detailed information :)
  1003. # [19:49] <funkie> thx
  1004. # [19:49] <funkie> using coda to hand code stuff
  1005. # [19:49] <funkie> my code is a mess
  1006. # [19:49] <funkie> but I'm still learning T_T
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  1011. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> vim users: does anyone know how to tell vim to automatically adopt the tab convention of the file you're editing?
  1012. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> E.g., look at the first X lines and try to figure out if it's tabs or spaces, and if spaces how many?
  1013. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Because I wind up leaving tabs littered in space-indented files if I'm not careful, and it's annoying.
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  1018. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You said that most tables that specify @border in the wild use border=0?
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  1021. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, looks like table-layout: fixed plus width: 100% works for Chrome and IE9, but not Opera or Firefox.
  1022. # [20:02] * Quits: shinyak (~shinyak@nat/google/x-xtrgebnzauzijkjx) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1023. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Oh well, it's an improvement.
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  1025. # [20:03] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Using 3.6? Because it works in 4.0 for me.
  1026. # [20:03] <bfrohs> (in firefox)
  1027. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> bfrohs, using 4.0.
  1028. # [20:03] <bfrohs> OS?
  1029. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, let me try a simpler test case.
  1030. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Ubuntu, but I really doubt OS matters here.
  1031. # [20:03] <bfrohs> Same here, so very weird
  1032. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Works for me in FF 3.6 on Linux.
  1033. # [20:04] * ezoe_ is now known as ezoe
  1034. # [20:04] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I see border=0 about 10x as often as border=1
  1035. # [20:04] * Quits: ezoe (~ezoe@112-68-244-153f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp) (Quit: And Now for Something Completely Different.)
  1036. # [20:04] <Philip`> TabAtkins: and that 10x more than border=2
  1037. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  1038. # [20:04] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@112-68-244-153f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
  1039. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Cool, thanks Philip`.
  1040. # [20:05] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Wait, are you saying table-layout:fixed; doesn't affect the final layout? Or that it doesn't solve the layout time?
  1041. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I'm just taking your livedomviewer and adding a "<style>table { width:100%; }</style>" to it. I get a clear behavior difference.
  1042. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> The behavior is different, but doesn't seem to be what I want unless I give explicit cell widths.
  1043. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> As I'm reading the spec, any available horizontal space should be divided up equally among columns whose first cell has width: auto.
  1044. # [20:06] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://philip.html5.org/data/table-border-pages.txt
  1045. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> But width: auto on any of the first row's cells seems to still make the column widths depend on cell contents after the first row.
  1046. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> The spec algo is a fiction.
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  1048. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> One sec.
  1049. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Just set % widths on the cells.
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  1051. # [20:07] <jamesr> TabAtkins: what's supposed to happen if you have <div style="display:none"><iframe src"..."></iframe></div> ?
  1052. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> jamesr: In terms of loading behavior for the iframe?
  1053. # [20:07] <jamesr> in terms of layout inside the iframe
  1054. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Oh, the iframe is display:none, so it doesn't lay out.
  1055. # [20:07] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.71) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1056. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> It should be like setting "window { display:none; }", if that was actually a thing you could do.
  1057. # [20:08] <jamesr> so every computed layout size is 0 inside of it? ok
  1058. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> Well, that's undefined. But 0 is a good answer.
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  1060. # [20:08] <jamesr> ok
  1061. # [20:09] <jamesr> guess we gotta figure out how to do that now that we load the iframe
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  1064. # [20:09] <jamesr> pretend it's display:none on the inside without actually returning 'none' for getters to style.display
  1065. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/931
  1066. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> It looks like it's enough to specify explicit widths on all but one cell.
  1067. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> The last will then be flexible.
  1068. # [20:10] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@97.67.219.162)
  1069. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Ugh, my real-world case is still broken in Firefox 4.0.
  1070. # [20:11] * AryehGregor investigates
  1071. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Oh, maybe it's just not picking up the updated CSS file for some reason . . . ?
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  1074. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Yeah, weird . . .
  1075. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Now it works.
  1076. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Dunno why it didn't fetch the file properly before.
  1077. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> It did when I ran in Firebug.
  1078. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Ack, now it broke again?!
  1079. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> No, not anymore.
  1080. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Okay, Firefox is still slow, but at least Chrome seems faster.
  1081. # [20:14] * cying is now known as charlietuna
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  1084. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I just... I just don't understand what kind of confusion would cause someone to write border="width=95%".
  1085. # [20:15] <mpilgrim> that's quite stunning
  1086. # [20:15] <Philip`> They probably write something more like <table border= width=95%>
  1087. # [20:16] <Philip`> which used to have some border value that got deleted
  1088. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Ah, that would make sense.
  1089. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> That parses the same as border="width=95%"? I'd have thought it would be border="" width=95% or something.
  1090. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> (Welcome to text/html, I guess.)
  1091. # [20:16] <mpilgrim> tables would be cooler if you could use unicode characters to draw the border you want, inside the border attribute
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  1094. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> ASCII is sufficient for all layout purposes.
  1095. # [20:17] <mpilgrim> works for the IETF
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  1097. # [20:18] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Whitespace is optional around the =
  1098. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Fascinating.
  1099. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> I... didn't know that.
  1100. # [20:18] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@24.104.44.194)
  1101. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> So <table border =^^=> parses as <table border="^^=">?
  1102. # [20:19] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#unquoted
  1103. # [20:19] <Philip`> "The attribute name, followed by zero or more space characters, followed by a single U+003D EQUALS SIGN character, followed by zero or more space characters, followed by the attribute value"
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  1106. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Hm, I'd have to actually go look at the parsing algo to tell how my example is parsed, since it contains an =.
  1107. # [20:20] <Philip`> It's what you said
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  1109. # [20:20] <bfrohs> "attribute value ... must not contain ... equals sign"
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  1111. # [20:20] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#attribute-value-(unquoted)-state
  1112. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Oh, the "no = in the attr value" is just an author conformance?
  1113. # [20:21] <Philip`> Only whitespace and '>' break out of it
  1114. # [20:21] <Philip`> (and EOF)
  1115. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Ah, yup.
  1116. # [20:21] <Philip`> Yeah, that whole section is just author conformance
  1117. # [20:21] <mpilgrim> pfft, authors
  1118. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> What's the easiest way to add a new style rule to the document? Just appending a style element, or is there some nicer way to do it via CSSOM?
  1119. # [20:22] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@99-108-143-196.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1120. # [20:22] <Philip`> If authors want to write <table border =^^=>, who are we to deny them?
  1121. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, "nicer way to do it via CSSOM"?
  1122. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, you must be new here
  1123. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Heh.
  1124. # [20:23] <Philip`> document.body.innerHTML += '<style>...</style>';
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  1127. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> innerHTML += is evil
  1128. # [20:24] * Philip` shrugs
  1129. # [20:24] <Philip`> HTML is evil
  1130. # [20:24] <aho> well, it's the slowest thing you can possibly do
  1131. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> Just make an HTMLStyleElement or whatever, set textContent, and append it.
  1132. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> No, HTML is ugly, there's a subtle difference
  1133. # [20:26] <Philip`> Emperor Palpatine was evil, and he was ugly
  1134. # [20:26] <Philip`> There's not really any difference
  1135. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Philip`, innerHTML += will do fun things like reset the state of all the <video>s on the page, won't it?
  1136. # [20:26] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Sure
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  1139. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> /.: Rivals Mock Microsoft's 'Native HTML5' Claims (http://rly.cc/E8bj)
  1140. # [20:27] <Ms2ger> Oh no!
  1141. # [20:28] <Philip`> (That link doesn't work)
  1142. # [20:28] <mpilgrim> TabAtkins: this may be relevant to your interests http://www.mozdev.org/pipermail/greasemonkey/2005-July/003696.html
  1143. # [20:28] <Ms2ger> http://rly.cc/E8bjy
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  1145. # [20:28] <mpilgrim> and ensuing discussion
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  1147. # [20:29] <mpilgrim> these days you should probably use document.head, if it exists
  1148. # [20:30] <mpilgrim> it's a surprisingly tricky question
  1149. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: And kill event handlers, etc. You're throwing away and reparsing the entire page.
  1150. # [20:31] <mpilgrim> holy shit, slashdot still exists!
  1151. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> mpilgrim, no kidding!
  1152. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> Ugh, I just want to not use table layout here.
  1153. # [20:32] <mpilgrim> i always assume things stop existing once i stop looking at them
  1154. # [20:32] <mpilgrim> like the HTML working group
  1155. # [20:32] <mpilgrim> and we see how well that worked out
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  1157. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim, are you surprised whenever you figure out the sun rose in the morning?
  1158. # [20:33] <mpilgrim> presentational attributes, shelley doing the whatwg weekly, cats living with dogs
  1159. # [20:33] <mpilgrim> AryehGregor: i try not to go outside, it ruins my complexion
  1160. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> The yellow face, it burns us?
  1161. # [20:35] <mpilgrim> wow, i can not think of two people who deserve each other more than Dean Hachamovitch and Asa Dotzler
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  1165. # [20:36] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  1166. # [20:36] <mpilgrim> i haven't been this entertained by trolls since Dave Winer learned that JSON was not XML
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  1169. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: http://scripting.com/2006/12/20.html Heh, funny.
  1170. # [20:38] <mpilgrim> oh, you thought I was kidding?
  1171. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> If a resource is served with no caching headers, does that mean UAs are allowed to cache it at all?
  1172. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> mpilgrim: No, I just hadn't seen that before.
  1173. # [20:39] * Joins: shinyak (~shinyak@nat/google/x-njhpuqjggwnxpuau)
  1174. # [20:41] <mpilgrim> AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec13.html#sec13.4
  1175. # [20:41] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181139127.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  1176. # [20:41] <mpilgrim> "A response received with a status code of 200, 203, 206, 300, 301 or 410 MAY be stored by a cache and used in reply to a subsequent request, subject to the expiration mechanism, unless a cache-control directive prohibits caching."
  1177. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> mpilgrim, k, thanks.
  1178. # [20:42] <mpilgrim> in practice, i don't think it will be cached very long
  1179. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> It seems to be cached long enough to be annoying, for Firefox and Opera.
  1180. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> I'll reconfigure the web server.
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  1182. # [20:44] <mpilgrim> lol https://bug649408.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=525702
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  1184. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> Yay, blink tags!
  1185. # [20:47] <tw2113> long live the blink!
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  1189. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> @keyframes blink { 0% { opacity: 1; } 75% { opacity: 1; } 75.1% { opacity: 0; } 100% { opacity: 0; } } blink { animation: blink 1s infinite; }
  1190. # [20:51] <Peter`> Be careful, one day that might end up in css reset sheets :-p
  1191. # [20:52] * nimbupani adds to html5boilerplate
  1192. # [20:52] <paul_irish> +1
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  1196. # [20:56] <Philip`> "75.1%" - that looks like an ugly hack - isn't there a way to do two separate keyframes in/out of a single instant?
  1197. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Nope.
  1198. # [20:56] <Philip`> How silly
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  1201. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> Assuming that the steps() timing function is supported, you do it with that. But otherwise, sharp transitions require that sort of hack.
  1202. # [20:58] <TabAtkins> The problem is that another design choice (allowing folding of similar keyframes together) required out-of-order keyframes to be allowed. Once you have that, you can't tell definitely that two keyframes at the same time represent a "before" and "after".
  1203. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> (I really should have written my animation as just "0%,75% { opacity: 1; } 75.1%,100% { opacity: 0; }".)
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  1215. # [21:15] <jgraham> Persoanally I think we should all promote "Naked HTML5"
  1216. # [21:16] <jgraham> Which, depending on your point of view is either just when you say "HTML5" and don't actually mean "CSS", or a special style of coding where you don't wear clothes
  1217. # [21:16] <jgraham> and get a little badge to put on the site that says "I supposrt naked HTML5"
  1218. # [21:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Why are you trying to add style rules dynamically?
  1219. # [21:17] <jgraham> If this is for testharness.js, you could just edit the stylesheet
  1220. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> jgraham, dynamically?
  1221. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, testharness.js was adding inline "display: none" to thousands of rows when you unchecked one of the boxes. This is rather slow on big tables.
  1222. # [21:18] <jgraham> Weren't you asking how to add stylesheets to the page?
  1223. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I committed some changes already, take a look and see if you like them.
  1224. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> I just added some style elements, seems to work fine.
  1225. # [21:18] <jgraham> OK
  1226. # [21:19] <jgraham> Also, are you sure that it is table layout that takes a long time, not just building a table thousands of rows long?
  1227. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> jgraham, not totally sure, no.
  1228. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Well, actually I'm sure it's layout.
  1229. # [21:19] <jgraham> Also also, I really wish there was a proper review system for hg
  1230. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> At least in Firefox.
  1231. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Because it's really slow to check or uncheck the boxes.
  1232. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> I don't see how that could be anything but layout.
  1233. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> While we're talking, do you know of any way to add a doctype to an existing document that has no doctype, in Opera?
  1234. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> insertNode() seems to throw an exception.
  1235. # [21:21] <jgraham> I have no idea
  1236. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR.
  1237. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  1238. # [21:21] <jgraham> I would have to test or read the code :)
  1239. # [21:21] <jgraham> (and I wouldn't trust my ability to read the code)
  1240. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> I'd really like to not have to re-navigate my iframe whenever the doctype gets blown up.
  1241. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, does anyone know if it's possible to directly set the contentDocument of an iframe, to some Document object I have, instead of having to give a URL?
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  1243. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> Whoa, WTF, Opera allows moving a doctype to illegal positions in the DOM.
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  1245. # [21:26] <AryehGregor> Like as the child of an Element.
  1246. # [21:26] * AryehGregor works around it
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  1250. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Do you remember you and I discussing some improvement to Error objects a few months ago?
  1251. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> (Arun has some notes about an idea of mine, but I don't remember having any such idea.)
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  1270. # [22:05] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: There's plenty of other Opera people on the list
  1271. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, none that I knew.
  1272. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> At least I don't think I saw any.
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  1274. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Maybe not, but probably around half the layout group are.
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  1278. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> Then I guess they can answer?
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  1281. # [22:12] <GPHemsley> Hixie: typo "environements" around line 104722
  1282. # [22:12] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Pretty much
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  1292. # [22:25] <Hixie> GPHemsley: thanks
  1293. # [22:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i do not
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  1299. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> jgraham, is there some specific reason that there's no assert_not_equals()?
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  1313. # [22:48] <Hixie> this native html5 thing really is quite amusing
  1314. # [22:50] <zcorpan> "Basically browsers are limited in what they can do with Java, so to execute complex script without bogging down you need plugins, such as the Adobe Flash plugin." http://html5.tmcnet.com/topics/html5/articles/164722-microsoft-decides-support-html-5-let-games-beg.htm
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  1317. # [22:51] <Hixie> it's like microsoft don't know how to compete without criticising the competition
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  1319. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Sheesh, insertNode() took a lot longer than I expected.
  1320. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Mostly writing the tests . . .
  1321. # [22:53] <othermaciej> their promotional posts for IE do seem to focus a lot on why the competition is supposedly bad
  1322. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Now I get to do surroundContents()!
  1323. # [22:54] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you have no idea how much i am enjoying not having to do the work you're doing :-)
  1324. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Hixie, well, I'm happy doing it, so that's two of us. :)
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  1326. # [22:55] <Hixie> :-)
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  1332. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Regarding the @border=1 survey, would I be accurately summarizing one of your arguments as "@border=1 serves as a signal to non-CSS UAs that the table is non-presentational"?
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  1334. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes.
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  1336. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> kk. Any particular reason the existing signal defined for that purpose (the presence or absence of @aria-role=presentation) is insufficient?
  1337. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Particularly given the current state of affairs, where presentational tables are okay if tagged in that way?
  1338. # [23:09] <Hixie> only in the w3c copy of the spec :-P
  1339. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> Well, yeah, but we're arguing about an HTMLWG decision, so the w3c copy is somewhat relevant.
  1340. # [23:10] <Hixie> (since the rationale for that made absolutely no sense)
  1341. # [23:10] <Hixie> fair enough
  1342. # [23:11] <Hixie> the way the spec currently defines border=1 is that it is an explicit indicator that the table is not a layout table
  1343. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that's a way to determine that the table *is* presentational, not that it's *not* presentational.
  1344. # [23:11] <Hixie> frankly if you want to argue a decision i'd concentrate more on the tables-for-layout one, the case against that one is much stronger
  1345. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> If you just write <table>, UAs can't safely assume it's non-presentational.
  1346. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, I will, I'm just annoyed that a paragraph from my objection was misinterpreted in the decision. I'm debating about whether or not to respond to Lief seriously here. It's probably a bad idea.
  1347. # [23:12] * Quits: jennb (~jennb@nat/google/x-enayxzdrujpbfhgh) (Quit: jennb)
  1348. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> I think I'll instead just point out that he has no idea what he's talking about, and he should read the Rendering section again.
  1349. # [23:12] <Hixie> dude the chairs have ignored entire e-mails of feedback, at least if they misinterpreted your paragraph that means they read it
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  1353. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Given that Maciej authored the decision email, I have a (possibly mistaken?) hope that he'll respond reasonably.
  1354. # [23:16] <Hixie> another decision i'm worried about is the weird one about focus rings
  1355. # [23:16] <Hixie> i don't even understand that decision though
  1356. # [23:16] <Hixie> so it's harder to know how to argue against it
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  1362. # [23:24] <Hixie> anyone know of a good online tool for drawing state transition graphs?
  1363. # [23:25] <Hixie> doesn't have to have good exporting facilities
  1364. # [23:25] <Hixie> i'm just trying to sketch something out and ascii art isn't cutting it
  1365. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> SVG?
  1366. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Omnigraffle is offline, but is supposed to be really good.
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  1369. # [23:29] <Hixie> something like omnigraffle would work
  1370. # [23:30] <Hixie> gliffy.com will do
  1371. # [23:30] <Hixie> though it's not automatically placing the nodes as i had hoped
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  1373. # [23:32] <Hixie> PS. I hate how Flash steals keyboard focus
  1374. # [23:32] <AryehGregor> I hate that too.
  1375. # [23:32] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe draw it with pencil and paper?
  1376. # [23:33] * Philip` usually finds that easier than drawing anything on a computer
  1377. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Did I seriously forget to specify that extractContents() et al. need to throw if the context object is detached?
  1378. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Feh.
  1379. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> (the whole idea of being detached is ridiculous anyway)
  1380. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, wait, I didn't.
  1381. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> I'm just testing it differently.
  1382. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> k, all is well.
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  1384. # [23:38] <jgraham> AryehGregor: No specific reason. Please add if you need it
  1385. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> jgraham, k.
  1386. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> How sneaky. Someone evaded my "spec inbox" filter by sending to w3c.org instead of w3.org.
  1387. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> I suppose www.org would have been too confusing.
  1388. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Although they do own it.
  1389. # [23:41] <jgraham> AryehGregor: For bonus points make it correct in the corner case where assert_equals is wrong
  1390. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> What case is that?
  1391. # [23:42] <jgraham> (hint: javascript has two zero values)
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  1394. # [23:43] <jgraham> (I will fix assert_equals at some point)
  1395. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> I already worked around that in format_value().
  1396. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> It's roughly one line.
  1397. # [23:46] <AryehGregor> So, it looks like IE is aiming to advertise itself as 10.0 in its UA string, not 9.8 or anything. Wonder how well that will go.
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  1399. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> I suspect they'll flinch when release time rolls around.
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  1402. # [23:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It also needs to be right in the assertions of course
  1403. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  1404. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, or they'll just add all major affected sites to their compatibility list.
  1405. # [23:52] <jgraham> like if (expected === 0) {assert(1/expected === 1/actual)}
  1406. # [23:53] <jgraham> Because +0 === -0
  1407. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Sure, that's possible.
  1408. # [23:53] <jgraham> But 1/+0 !== 1/-0
  1409. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> Why would anyone assert that?
  1410. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> I mean, maybe in theory, but doesn't seem likely in practice, right?
  1411. # [23:54] <jgraham> The point is that you might assert_equals(-0, 0), which should be false
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  1413. # [23:55] <jgraham> It seems unlikely in practice indeed
  1414. # [23:55] <jgraham> That's why I said "corner case"
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  1417. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> It came up in my reflection tests in some capacity or other.
  1418. # [23:56] <jgraham> But it would be nice to match the ES5 SameValue algorithm exactly
  1419. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> Well, not exactly.
  1420. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> Anyway, yeah.
  1421. # Session Close: Sat Apr 16 00:00:00 2011

The end :)