/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 18 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:34] <jacobolus> is there a good way to clear a <canvas> without altering its context?
  8. # [00:36] <jacobolus> I guess I can do something like save context, zero out transform, clearRect the whole width/height, restore context
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  10. # [00:38] <bga_> canvas.width = canvas.width
  11. # [00:39] <jacobolus> bga_: that kills my context
  12. # [00:39] <bga_> dirty hack by @kangax
  13. # [00:39] <jacobolus> bga_: I don't think I can do a save/restore around that can I?
  14. # [00:39] <jacobolus> I guess I can try and see
  15. # [00:40] <jacobolus> also, no longer too much a "dirty hack" when it's widely documented as the right way to do it :)
  16. # [00:41] <bga_> jacobolus gc do not kills your context => you will not lost it
  17. # [00:41] <bga_> i guess
  18. # [00:41] <jacobolus> I'm not sure what you mean
  19. # [00:42] <bga_> gc == garbage collector
  20. # [00:42] <jacobolus> if I do canvas.width = canvas.width, at least in Safari, my transform matrix is reset to the identity
  21. # [00:42] <bga_> heh
  22. # [00:43] <jacobolus> I can't save/restore around it either
  23. # [00:43] <jacobolus> so I'm going to try my way
  24. # [00:43] <jacobolus> :)
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  26. # [00:44] <bga_> but you can get second clear context :)
  27. # [00:44] <bga_> may be its faster way
  28. # [00:44] <jacobolus> hm?
  29. # [00:44] <jacobolus> not sure what you mean
  30. # [00:45] <jacobolus> I have a context stack that I don't want to destroy, I just want to clear the whole canvas image
  31. # [00:45] <bga_> one canvas can have multi contexes
  32. # [00:45] <bga_> with different states
  33. # [00:46] <bga_> and types(2в/3d)
  34. # [00:46] <jacobolus> I can have multiple 2d contexts on a canvas?
  35. # [00:46] <bga_> *2d
  36. # [00:46] <bga_> yeah
  37. # [00:46] <jacobolus> how does that work?
  38. # [00:47] <jacobolus> I don't see any mechanism in the spec for switching contexts
  39. # [00:47] <bga_> sec
  40. # [00:49] <bga_> oh
  41. # [00:49] <bga_> fail in chome
  42. # [00:49] <bga_> context is singleton :(
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  44. # [00:50] <bga_> soкry
  45. # [00:50] <bga_> *sorry
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  49. # [00:53] <bga_> jacobolus another way to avoid save/restore state is do `clearRect` with infinite bounds %)
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  55. # [01:08] <jacobolus> bga_: how do you do infinite bounds?
  56. # [01:08] <jacobolus> does that work?
  57. # [01:08] <jacobolus> as in context.clearRect(-Infinity, -Infinity, Infinity, Infinity) ??
  58. # [01:08] <bga_> yeah
  59. # [01:09] <jacobolus> that works everywhere?
  60. # [01:09] <jacobolus> seems like an edge case that could easily blow up someplace
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  62. # [01:13] <jcranmer> presumably most implementations would work by comparison
  63. # [01:14] <jcranmer> if they convert to internal integer coordinates, then it should map to max/min values
  64. # [01:14] <jacobolus> this seems to work just fine: http://pastie.textmate.org/1805281
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  66. # [01:20] <bga_> 'infinite' trick doesnt works in chrome and opera. fail #2 :)
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  68. # [01:30] <Philip`> Non-finite or very large or (in some cases) quite large coordinates aren't at all interoperable
  69. # [01:31] <Philip`> e.g. some implementations seem to convert to some fixed-point data type
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  119. # [04:52] <jacobolus> kind of unfortunate that canvas doesn't support dotted/dashed lines
  120. # [04:53] <jacobolus> I can manage in the straight line and arc cases easily enough, but manually doing dotted bezier curves is tricky enough to not be worth the effort
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  123. # [05:34] <jacobolus> zewt, Philip`: so the "save context, set identity transformation, stroke, restore context" pattern is pretty great; too bad there's no similarly easy way to do text by first storing an "anchor" position and then setting a new transformation to apply to the actual text filling
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  125. # [05:38] <jacobolus> if I could pull the matrix out, I could maybe do something like translate so the origin is where I want my anchor, then keep the translation part of the matrix constant while resetting the rest to the identity, and then restore afterward
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  258. # [14:33] <hsivonen> the 2022 meme has made it to xkcd
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  273. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: cool
  274. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> and only a few years after Jesus returns to earth
  275. # [15:13] <jgraham> Actually we're relying on him to finish off the testsuite
  276. # [15:15] * MikeSmith puts Jesus in critical path on his testsuite Microsoft Project plan
  277. # [15:18] <MikeSmith> I just hope he's hip to IRC so that I can ping him and discuss problems in real time
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  285. # [15:43] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: you won't need to discuss problems with him
  286. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> well, I mean personal problems
  287. # [15:43] <MikeSmith> like, when I need some life advice
  288. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> currently when I have a problem, I just ask myself, What would Jesus do?
  289. # [15:44] <zcorpan> ah
  290. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> but after he gets back, I can just ask him directly
  291. # [15:44] <MikeSmith> save myself a lot of thinking time
  292. # [15:45] <webr3> "why does jesus test us so much?" - btw I think it said he comes back twice, again in 2025 iirc
  293. # [15:45] <zewt> well, it may be of little help when his answer is invariably "change the gravitational constant of the universe"
  294. # [15:45] <wilhelm> I don't think I want to take life advice from a guy who ended up crucified at the will of an angry mob.
  295. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> he didn't really get crucified
  296. # [15:47] <MikeSmith> they actually crucified Judas (thinking he was Jesus)
  297. # [15:48] <wilhelm> Oh. Clever.
  298. # [15:49] * ericc|away is now known as eric_carlson
  299. # [15:56] <jgraham> webr3: Isn't coming back multiple times his best-known party trick?
  300. # [15:58] <webr3> jgraham: either that or the wine one
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  303. # [16:04] <zcorpan> i read somewhere he wasn't crucified but just nailed to a pole
  304. # [16:04] <jgraham> webr3: I guess the wine one is better for picking up girls. It's a tough pickup tactic that needs a three day hiatus in a cave.
  305. # [16:05] <jgraham> so, erm, blas-for-me, blas-for-you
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  356. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Question to world: how do I get added as a member of the Web Apps WG? Do I contact the Google AC rep to add me, T. V. Raman?
  357. # [18:28] * Quits: mdelaney_ (~mdelaney@67.218.110.53) (Quit: mdelaney_)
  358. # [18:28] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yes
  359. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> jgraham, thanks.
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  364. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: And I can save you some time by sending you the link for the webapps signup. TV will ask for it otherwise. ^_^
  365. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, heh, yeah, he asked me last time and I had no idea what he wanted.
  366. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> Forgot about that.
  367. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> What's the link?
  368. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> http://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/, find the group you want and click the "join" button. Send the url for that page to TV.
  369. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> Wait, I think I'm already in it.
  370. # [18:40] * AryehGregor investigates
  371. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> No, I'm not.
  372. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> But the page is titled "Leaving the Web Applications Working Group".
  373. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Maybe the participant list doesn't update right away?
  374. # [18:41] <karlcow> You are already part of it
  375. # [18:41] <jgraham> Maybe they're giving you a hint?
  376. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Okay, so he must have added me already.
  377. # [18:41] <mpilgrim> it's a zen koan
  378. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> But I don't show up here: http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42538&public=1&gs=1&;
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  380. # [18:42] <karlcow> you are the shadow DOM of WebApps
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  383. # [18:42] <mpilgrim> the shadow DOM liveth forever and ever
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  385. # [18:43] <mpilgrim> by cloning itself and appending itself to its parent shortly before removing itself from this world
  386. # [18:49] <AryehGregor> Deep clone or shallow clone?
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  388. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> Ooh, I like this definition: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-clone-ext
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  390. # [18:51] <AryehGregor> I want some definitions like that for DOM Range, for mutations.
  391. # [18:51] * AryehGregor makes a mental note to write some up later.
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  393. # [18:52] <AryehGregor> Another random comment: I love how all these Japanese people are always so incredibly polite. I wish Westerners were more polite.
  394. # [18:54] <karlcow> hmmm it is not really polite. It is the codification of the communication which is different. Difficult to explain. From a western point of view it *seems* polite.
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  396. # [18:54] <zewt> seems more "distant" than "polite" to me
  397. # [18:55] <zewt> sort of like retail-employee "politeness"
  398. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> To me, "polite" means things like saying please and thank you, trying to phrase things non-critically, things like that. I'd say it's politeness, by that definition.
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  400. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Of course, it has downsides too.
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  403. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> Bluntness can be useful. Israelis tend to be very blunt.
  404. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Which is to say, not polite.
  405. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> There's a joke about that.
  406. # [18:57] <karlcow> communication protocols. :)
  407. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> A journalist goes up to four people -- an American, a Russian, a Chinese person, and an Israeli. The journalist asks them all, "What's your opinion on the recent meat shortage?"
  408. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> The American says "What's a 'shortage'?"
  409. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> The Russian says, "What's 'meat'?"
  410. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> The Chinese person says, "What's an 'opinion'?"
  411. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> The Israeli says, "What's 'excuse me'?"
  412. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> (maybe the joke was originally told before the Soviet Union's collapse, the Russian part makes more sense then)
  413. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> The joke would work better if the reporter had said "excuse me" at some point. ^_^
  414. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Dangit.
  415. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> It was supposed to say "Excuse, what's your opinion on the recent meat shortage?"
  416. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> I always ruin jokes that are more than about one line long.
  417. # [18:58] * AryehGregor hangs his head in shame
  418. # [18:58] <TabAtkins> Boooo
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  420. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> My father is an excellent joke-teller, but somehow I don't seem to have inherited it.]
  421. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> it.
  422. # [18:59] <Philip`> You could tell the jokes backwards, starting at the punchline, so you can be sure you'll set them up properly
  423. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> That's an excellent idea. I wonder why no one has ever thought of it before.
  424. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I like your much-more-polite versions of my responses to those bugs.
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  428. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, see, that's what I mean about being polite.
  429. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> It's not nice to say to some confused newbie "Why don't you read beyond the table of contents?"
  430. # [19:00] <karlcow> The Japanese answer could be something along: "We understand the issue. Thanks."
  431. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> The spec is several hundred pages long and incomprehensible to normal human beings.
  432. # [19:01] <AryehGregor> It's only polite to take thirty seconds to explain properly when someone has taken the effort to give feedback, even if the feedback is misguided.
  433. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I'm always somewhat torn. Yes, that's a rude thing to say. It's also rude to even *ask* that question without doing a little bit of research yourself, at which point the answer becomes obvious.
  434. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> Jeezus, Kyoto is a million miles away from Tokyo.
  435. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> Someone without web standards background is likely to be completely confused by the ambiguous terminology, and will have a lot of trouble successfully researching it themselves.
  436. # [19:02] <karlcow> The French answer might be "French meat is delicious" (completely unrelated and pulling it to French culture) or if the journalist is cute "Are you free tonight?"
  437. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> I'd agree with you somewhat more if it were a question like "What's the details element supposed to do?" where just Ctrl-Fing through the ToC would give you the answer easily.
  438. # [19:03] <karlcow> TabAtkins: not by shinkansen
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  440. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> But over here you have "HTML" being used in two conflicting ways, which is confusing.
  441. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> Maybe we should officially start calling the syntax only "text/html" or something.
  442. # [19:03] <AryehGregor> Although that's also confusing, since then you're calling it by a MIME type.
  443. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> karlcow: I can't tell if http://goo.gl/maps/Ff8F is via shinkansen or not, because there's too much japanese.
  444. # [19:05] <karlcow> 140 min by Shinkansen from Tokyo to Kyoto
  445. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Ooh, what's the price on that sort of trip (if you know off the top of your head)
  446. # [19:05] * AryehGregor always sort of wonders if someone is trying to track him, when he's given a goo.gl URL
  447. # [19:06] <karlcow> 10,000 yens
  448. # [19:06] <karlcow> around
  449. # [19:06] <karlcow> depends on the time
  450. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's just what Maps popped out when I asked it for a link.
  451. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  452. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> When I was considering applying to Google for a full-time job, I of course made sure that the URLs in my resume were shortened using goo.gl instead of tinyurl.
  453. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> ...Why were you shortening your urls at all in your resume?
  454. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> I thought it was funny that I'd be using goo.gl to spy on how many people were reading the resume I submitted to Google, where and when.
  455. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> (I never actually submitted it, though.)
  456. # [19:07] <AryehGregor> Um, I dunno. Let me look.
  457. # [19:07] <karlcow> Nozomi is the fastest bullet train between Tokyo and Kyoto
  458. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Wow, I so totally never use word processing software.
  459. # [19:08] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nozomi_(Shinkansen)
  460. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> This is like six months old and it was #8 on recent documents.
  461. # [19:08] <AryehGregor> Anyway, it turns out it was a link to my reflection tests, which were relevant since I was going to apply for web standards work.
  462. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Why shorten the link, though? Shortened links are for twitter only, mostly.
  463. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> They're for print also.
  464. # [19:09] <karlcow> The train is leaving from Shinagawa station
  465. # [19:09] <karlcow> so you will have to go from Haneda to Shinagawa.
  466. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> I was asked for a PDF resume, IIRC, so I assumed that someone might be printing it somewhere along the line.
  467. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> karlcow: Apparently Google is sending us on JR新幹線のぞみ99号 for the long part of the trip.
  468. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> But for some reason it's got a 5-minute section before that for 7k yen. ?_?
  469. # [19:10] <karlcow> JR is the company
  470. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> I'm proud to say I recognize the character の from that line. It's hiragana for "no", usually meaning "of".
  471. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> I think.
  472. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's the shinkansen.
  473. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> That's like the only character I ever recognize when I read Japanese.
  474. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Sometimes the characters for "Japan" too.
  475. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Or "person", or like three other words.
  476. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> But mostly "of".
  477. # [19:11] <karlcow> or more exactly one of the companies of Japan for train
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  479. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Logogramies make me sad. I like trying to read foreign languages even if I don't understand them, but with CJK I have no chance.
  480. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> I know the Greek alphabet, and can do okay on Cyrillic, plus of course I can read Hebrew. I should learn the Arabic alphabet.
  481. # [19:13] <karlcow> TabAtkins: this might help you http://www.shinkansen.co.jp/jikoku_hyo/en/
  482. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, I should go find something useful to do instead of spamming IRC chats.
  483. # [19:14] <karlcow> for the timetable
  484. # [19:15] <karlcow> and also the very practical http://www.hyperdia.com/
  485. # [19:16] <karlcow> example http://www.hyperdia.com/cgi/en/search.html?dep_node=HANEDA%20AIRPORT%20INTERNATIONAL%20BUILDING&arv_node=KYOTO&via_node01=&via_node02=&via_node03=&year=2011&month=04&day=18&hour=13&minute=12&search_type=0&search_way=&transtime=undefined&sort=0&max_route=5&ship=off&lmlimit=null&search_target=route&facility=reserved&sum_target=7
  486. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> Ooh, that one's very useful, karlcow.
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  550. # [21:10] <Hixie> wow, http://www.google.com/green/ uses a lot of new html features
  551. # [21:10] <Hixie> <video>, <nav>, <footer>, all kinds of stuff
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  556. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> <div id="learn-space" class="floatleft width-230">
  557. # [21:17] <AryehGregor> <video> with no fallback, at that.
  558. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Only WebM and MP4.
  559. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> No Flash or anything.
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  561. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> Unless JS adds fallback.
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  563. # [21:19] <Hixie> haven't tested it in IE
  564. # [21:19] <Hixie> the page certainly still has the influence of media-specific presentation :-(
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  566. # [21:19] <Hixie> and suffers from a case of divitis
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  569. # [21:21] <zcorpan> the fallback (visually at least) is <img>
  570. # [21:22] <zcorpan> seems like that page calls for background-image:url(webm)
  571. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> <div class="blue data-center-content width-230 colorblock">
  572. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Terrible alt text, too: <img src="img/how-can-we-help-in-the-face-of-disasters.jpg" width="230" height="161" alt="How Can We Help In The Face Of Disasters" class="block-bg">
  573. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Oh, no, it isn't.
  574. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> It's good alt text.
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  576. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> Since the image is just a picture of text.
  577. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> I think.
  578. # [21:23] <zcorpan> no it isn't
  579. # [21:23] <zcorpan> it repeats the heading
  580. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> No, it's not.
  581. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it repeats the heading.
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  583. # [21:25] <zcorpan> i think i'd just do <p><a href>Can competition become cooperation?</a></p>
  584. # [21:26] <zcorpan> and the background video should be done in css (except css doesn't support that)
  585. # [21:27] <TabAtkins> It totally should.
  586. # [21:27] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: fix css
  587. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> Suggest to me background-image:url(movie) should work, and I will.
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  589. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> Right now, you can do background-image: element(#the-video); with an out-of-document video.
  590. # [21:29] <zcorpan> i guess we should implement that first
  591. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> (For some definition of "can do".)
  592. # [21:30] <zcorpan> background-image:url(movie) wouldn't work so well with the current codec situation in practice
  593. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> True.
  594. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> background-image: image("movie.webm", "movie.mp4");
  595. # [21:31] <zcorpan> image("movie.webm") format("video/webm"), ...
  596. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> I need a word for "according to specs you can, but nobody implements it yet so it's currently theoretical only".
  597. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> spec-can
  598. # [21:32] <zcorpan> "I'm high as a kite"
  599. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> "Right now, you speccan do ..."
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  602. # [21:38] <webr3> "soon"
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  618. # [22:04] <jgraham> TabAtkins: If you weren't going to Japan on Google's dollar it might be worth your while to know that you can (or could 6 years ago) get some kind of foreigners-only tourist train ticket that makes travelling about more affordable, at least if you travel a lot
  619. # [22:04] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
  620. # [22:05] <TabAtkins> My wife and friend are coming with me and not being paid for by Google, so it might still be good to look into.
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  622. # [22:05] <jgraham> http://www.japanrailpass.net/
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  624. # [22:07] <jgraham> Seems to be not valid on at least some Shinkansen
  625. # [22:07] <jgraham> I am a bit hazy on what we did because we went with a japanese friend so mostly we just followed her instructions
  626. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Seems like it wouldn't actually save me anything if we're just doing a single roundtrip between tokyo and kyoto.
  627. # [22:09] <jgraham> No, I doubt it in that case. We travelled quite a bit more than that (although we did do that as part of the trip)
  628. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Yeah, seems like a great deal if you'll be taking the train a few times.
  629. # [22:10] * jgraham wonders if anyone noticed the irony of using relatively-cpu-intensive video on a page about saving energy
  630. # [22:11] <AryehGregor> It's amazing how ironic environmentalism can often be.
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  650. # [22:55] * Quits: Hixie (~ianh@trivini.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  651. # [22:55] * Quits: wilhelm (~wilhelm@trivini.no) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  652. # [22:59] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.170.229) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  653. # [23:02] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  654. # [23:02] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  655. # [23:08] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  656. # [23:08] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  657. # [23:09] * Quits: GlitchMr (glitchmr@85.17.231.147) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  659. # [23:16] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  660. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> Hmm, ISSUE-80 decision is in.
  661. # [23:19] * AryehGregor reads
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  666. # [23:34] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
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  670. # [23:38] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
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  673. # [23:46] <Hixie> oh hey
  674. # [23:46] <Hixie> we're on xkcd today!
  675. # [23:48] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
  676. # [23:51] <aho> oh... boy :>
  677. # [23:53] <mpilgrim> i see a new XKCD poster in my future
  678. # [23:57] <tndH> all that work, just to get to that last line...
  679. # [23:57] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@ip-216-36-86-218.iad.megapath.net) (Quit: back later)
  680. # [23:58] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124.171.54.114)
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  682. # Session Close: Tue Apr 19 00:00:00 2011

The end :)