/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-19 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Apr 19 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] * Joins: ezoe (~ezoe@61-205-125-179f1.kyt1.eonet.ne.jp)
# [00:00] <TabAtkins> I like reading it as an actual future history.
# [00:01] <Hixie> the temperature gradient in 2090 sounds painful
# [00:01] <Hixie> also i'm taking my money out of dollars if that history is accurate
# [00:02] <TabAtkins> What, the debt being 700% of GDP scares you?
# [00:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: no, the debt going up and down like a yoyo
# [00:02] <TabAtkins> Heh, yeah.
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> Is there actually such a thing as a blind photographer? Really?
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> I mean . . . how?
# [00:03] <Hixie> TV is blind and is a photographer
# [00:03] <Hixie> TV Raman, i mean
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> TV?
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> Oh.
# [00:03] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
# [00:03] <Hixie> as i recall, he likes taking photos of things so his friends can describe where he was
# [00:03] <Hixie> tohim
# [00:04] <Hixie> later
# [00:04] <AryehGregor> Makes sense.
# [00:04] <Hixie> which seems like a pretty reasonable thing to me
# [00:04] <AryehGregor> "Photographer" makes it sound like it's a professional thing.
# [00:04] <Hixie> (and i just love the concept that he'd be required to include alt text to save himself from himself...)
# [00:04] <TabAtkins> I think my favorite year is 2068.
# [00:05] <AryehGregor> 2068 is pretty good, yeah.
# [00:05] <AryehGregor> Lord Jesus ruling an entirely gay Earth.
# [00:05] <TabAtkins> And then, apparently, legalizing public masturbation the next year.
# [00:05] <Hixie> also the rfc number for http :-P
# [00:05] <AryehGregor> Is it just me, or do climatologists really like the year 2100?
# [00:06] <Hixie> round number
# [00:06] <Hixie> everyone likes 2100
# [00:06] <TabAtkins> It's a good "medium future" number.
# [00:06] <Hixie> it's like 2000 was a few decades ago
# [00:06] <aho> it's a good "i'll be dead then LOL" date
# [00:06] <AryehGregor> 2100 is "medium" future?
# [00:06] <AryehGregor> I guess you're a sci-fi fan.
# [00:06] <Hixie> i was just gonna say, 2100 sounds near-future to me :-P
# [00:07] <AryehGregor> To me, 2100 is "so far in the future that I'm not really confident making any kind of prediction about it whatsoever" future.
# [00:07] <TabAtkins> Depends on how singulatarian I'm feeling.
# [00:07] <tw2113> AryehGregor in 2100, IE6 will still be installed on at least 1 computer
# [00:08] <othermaciej> by 2100, most of us will be dead, unless there are major unforeseen advances in life extension technology
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> I'm betting on mind virtualization by then.
# [00:08] <tw2113> now to get better minds
# [00:08] <othermaciej> a future with that level of advancement is almost by definition not predictable
# [00:08] <AryehGregor> I'd be 112. That doesn't seem so unattainable, given the advances in biotech we've had in the last few decades.
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# [00:09] <othermaciej> I mean, megascale geo-engineering is probably easier than either major life extension or mind uploads
# [00:09] <AryehGregor> I mean, open-heart surgery was first performed in 1952.
# [00:09] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Indeed, thus my comment. If I pretend that the singularity won't occur sometime in the next century, then 2100 is medium-future.
# [00:09] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i that _successful_ open heart surgery, or any? ;-)
# [00:09] <AryehGregor> Successful.
# [00:09] <tw2113> too much of me fears repeating of the movie Idiocracy
# [00:09] <othermaciej> 2100 is either far-future or you won't live to see your predictions about it
# [00:09] <TabAtkins> The first reasonably successful one. Dude lived 3 days with his new heart.
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, insightful point.
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: That seems incorrect. Reasonable projections of biological life-extension can let you reach 2100 without the world changing to an unpredictable degree.
# [00:10] <AryehGregor> I doubt we'll see any "singularity" in the sense of asymptotically rapid progress.
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# [00:11] <AryehGregor> It's possible, but I don't see any reason to believe it.
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> Agreed; I'm referring more to virtualization becoming practical.
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> It's not clear to me how likely that is.
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> Because we'd have extremely high standards to consider it successful.
# [00:12] <TabAtkins> I think it's an engineering problem at this point, and a solveable one.
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> We'd consider an artificial heart successful as long as it can replicate the essential function of a heart, even if it does so very differently in practice.
# [00:12] <TabAtkins> Just need a few more moore's law iterations, plus sufficient scanning-tech advances.
# [00:12] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: life expectancy is not rising at better than a year per yer
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# [00:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: hey you just described a "successful" heart operation as something that extends life by three days, according to Tab, so why would you have a higher bar for this? ;-)
# [00:13] <AryehGregor> But if electronic copies of human brains have even moderately large personality changes or similar, we'd be unlikely to consider the subject really "the same person".
# [00:13] <othermaciej> (I don't know if it is rising much at all in developed countries any more)
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Once you've established that 3 days is possible, the rest is engineering.
# [00:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: sounds like the same applies here :-)
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: I suspect we're on the rising cusp of biotech advancement, though.
# [00:13] <TabAtkins> We'll get a nice sigmoid going on in the near future.
# [00:14] <Hixie> watching TED talks, we're clearly on the rising cusp of biotech advancement
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, current life expectancy rise is driven by incremental improvement in medicine. I'd say that if we see a really huge increase in lifespan within the next century, it will be because artificial organs become much cheaper and safer.
# [00:14] <othermaciej> so you're postulating currently unknown dramatic technological improvement
# [00:14] <othermaciej> we've been on the rising cusp of biotech advancement for a good 15 years now
# [00:14] <Hixie> indeed
# [00:14] <TabAtkins> Yes?
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> At some point, it would be reasonable to do things like preemptively replace largely healthy hearts to avoid possible heart failure.
# [00:14] <TabAtkins> And we've been 10 years away from AI for 50 years. ^_^
# [00:14] <TabAtkins> We're still closer to AI now than we were half a centure ago.
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> And things like that.
# [00:14] <zcorpan> maybe if i want to live longer, i should get some sleep
# [00:14] <zcorpan> nn
# [00:15] <AryehGregor> If you can replace failing organs cheaply and reliably, you could remove most common causes of natural death, other than brain failure.
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# [00:15] <TabAtkins> Yup.
# [00:15] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, one can imagine a brain-in-a-vat scenario, where other organs become irrelevant.
# [00:16] <TabAtkins> That seems less likely to me, personally, for social reasons if nothing else.
# [00:16] <AryehGregor> Of course, brains fail too, in terms of senility and so on, but I could easily see a large lifespan increase along these lines within the next century.
# [00:16] <othermaciej> you can imagine all sorts of things that are currently infeasible
# [00:16] <AryehGregor> Sure.
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# [00:16] <othermaciej> if you assume such things, then claims of predicting the future beyond them are not credible
# [00:17] <AryehGregor> Yes, that much I agree with. I don't trust any predictions beyond twenty years or so, unless they're very vague.
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# [00:17] <AryehGregor> Well, about society and such, I mean.
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# [00:17] <AryehGregor> I trust that Halley's comet will return in 2061.
# [00:18] <othermaciej> unless grey goo nanobots convert the whole solar system to paper clips
# [00:19] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure the worst-case scenario for nanobots doesn't include space travel.
# [00:19] <AryehGregor> I do sort of wonder how likely it is that we'll destroy the world somehow.
# [00:19] <AryehGregor> I'm betting not very, but who knows.
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> Gray goo has fundamental problems with energy, I think. Molecular conversion is a pretty expensive process.
# [00:20] <AryehGregor> Clearly, if there's any non-negligible chance of some endeavor destroying the world, we should avoid that endeavor at all costs.
# [00:20] <TabAtkins> Maybe you can gray-goo a chip factory, but it would more or less stop when it hits concrete.
# [00:20] <AryehGregor> Well, gray goo is a pretty unlikely scenario, yeah.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> Nanobots are also likely to be fragile.
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, one good EMP (or hell, a microwave burst) should fry them.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> Zap them with some EMP or a flamethrower or something, that should take care of them.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> They're a bit too small for shielding.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> So I don't think it's really worth worrying about.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> Strong AI is more worrying.
# [00:21] <jcranmer> you assume they use electronic gates
# [00:21] <TabAtkins> On the subject of runaway replicators, robo-miners are more credible.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> But we don't have to worry about that anytime soon.
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> But that would just exhaust our asteroid belt or something.
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Flamethrower or microwave weaponry doesn't assume that.
# [00:22] <jcranmer> EMP does
# [00:23] <jcranmer> flamethrower assumes easy breakability
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> No, it assumes that nanoscale machinery isn't immune to heat.
# [00:23] <jcranmer> especially because they likely would design nanomachines to have good heat dissipation
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Yes, good heat dissipation for their own processes.
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> The fact that I have a good heatsink on my CPU doesn't mean it can withstand a flamethrower.
# [00:24] <AryehGregor> Nanomachines will automatically have a practically infinite ratio of surface area to volume.
# [00:24] <AryehGregor> So they'll always be at the temperature of their ambient environment.
# [00:24] <AryehGregor> But that doesn't help them if their ambient environment is 1000°F.
# [00:24] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, your CPU's heat dissipation is a joke compared to anything nanoscale.
# [00:25] <AryehGregor> But it doesn't matter.
# [00:25] <AryehGregor> Dissipation is only relevant for heat produced by the thing itself, not environmental heat.
# [00:25] <AryehGregor> Nothing's going to stand in the way of high environmental temperature.
# [00:26] <AryehGregor> Unless someone invents a good thermal insulator. Now *that* would have major engineering applications.
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# [00:26] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Of course, but my point was that dissipation is irrelevant in the presence of extreme heat, as you point out.
# [00:26] <AryehGregor> It's not a question of extreme or not extreme, it's internal versus external.
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# [00:26] <AryehGregor> If you have good enough heat dissipation, you can tolerate arbitrarily large amounts of internal heat, by distributing it to your environment.
# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Extreme in a relative sense. "Much hotter than operating temperature bounds".
# [00:27] <AryehGregor> If your CPU had perfect heat dissipation, it could produce a megawatt of heat indefinitely with no ill effects.
# [00:27] <AryehGregor> But it would still melt if the environment around it were too hot.
# [00:27] <TabAtkins> You're going out of your way to interpret my statements in isolation, rather than in the obvious context of a flamethrower being applied.
# [00:28] <AryehGregor> I'm just saying, flamethrowers are an external heat source, so dissipation is irrelevant. The place that the heat is being dissipated to is also being heated up, so the dissipation doesn't work.
# [00:28] <AryehGregor> You need a temperature difference to dissipate heat.
# [00:29] <Hixie> if you're putting a megawatt of heat into your environment, your environment will quickly get "too hot" :-P
# [00:29] <TabAtkins> I'm perfectly aware of this, and it's precisely what I said originally. ^_^
# [00:29] <AryehGregor> Hixie, yeah, that's a detail.
# [00:29] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
# [00:29] <Hixie> just sayin' ;-)
# [00:29] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Not if your heat dump is a laser and you're in vacuum, for example.
# [00:29] <AryehGregor> Would that work, thermodynamically?
# [00:29] <Hixie> i thought we were talking about robots in a factory
# [00:29] <Hixie> sorry, not paying that close attention here
# [00:29] <AryehGregor> Well, you could always just radiate the heat, if you were in a vacuum.
# [00:30] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure how heat-dissipation lasers work, but I've seen them enough in scifi that I assume they're possible.
# [00:30] <AryehGregor> We *were* talking about nanorobots, but that was a while ago.
# [00:30] <TabAtkins> If you're just radiating, you're stuck with blackbody efficiency at best.
# [00:30] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's true.
# [00:30] <AryehGregor> But I'm pretty sure you can't just radiate heat away using a laser.
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> I mean, how much entropy is in a laser beam?
# [00:31] <TabAtkins> I'd have to actually do some research to see if it's plausible. Like I said, I've just seen it in enough scifi, particularly hard stuff, that I assume it works somehow.
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> Where's the entropy going?
# [00:31] <jcranmer> laser beams are pretty much low entropy by definition
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> Laser beams can contain lots of energy, but I don't see where the entropy is.
# [00:31] <jcranmer> they're light amplified by having all the waves in the same direction
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> And you need to dump the entropy someplace.
# [00:31] <AryehGregor> Right, that's what I'd think.
# [00:32] <AryehGregor> You'll create entropy if the laser hits something and heats it up, but that doesn't help you.
# [00:32] <AryehGregor> You need to create it in the process of generating the laser.
# [00:32] <jcranmer> a laser beam you can see is bad
# [00:32] <jcranmer> the laser equipment is what gets hot
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# [00:32] <AryehGregor> Yeah, creating the laser will create lots of extra entropy. Surely more than any you lose by it.
# [00:33] <AryehGregor> You can sink as much heat as necessary by radiation if you have enough surface area.
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# [00:33] * Philip` thinks we ought to design computers to be entropy-efficient rather than just energy-efficient, since delaying the death of the universe seems a pretty important long-term goal
# [00:33] <AryehGregor> If there were such a thing as a good thermal conductor, that would be trivial.
# [00:33] <AryehGregor> But there are no good thermal insulators or conductors.
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# [00:42] <AryehGregor> Wow, top-posting is especially obnoxious when a) the poster starts a new thread so it's not auto-collapsed in Gmail, and b) the quoted post is like ten pages long.
# [00:42] <TabAtkins> Faulkner is basically horrible at writing emails in every way.
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# [00:42] <TabAtkins> I shudder to think how his emails sound in a screen reader.
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# [00:44] <AryehGregor> Finally! https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57942
# [00:44] * ako is now known as aho
# [00:44] <AryehGregor> Some browser should have done this a couple of years ago, when minification was becoming common.
# [00:44] <TabAtkins> Yay!
# [00:44] <TabAtkins> <3 Inspector Team.
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# [00:47] <AryehGregor> Asa Dotzler is . . . pretty concerned about privacy, isn't he?
# [00:47] * ako is now known as aho
# [00:48] <othermaciej> Asa Dotzler is concerned about anything relating to non-Firefox browsers
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# [00:51] <AryehGregor> Currently he seems to be concerned mostly about search engines.
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> At least judging by his blog.
# [00:51] <AryehGregor> To the extent of repeatedly and enthusiastically endorsing Bing over Google, because of their allegedly superior privacy policy.
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> Am I the only one who thinks Do-Not-Track is a complete waste of time? Advertisers know that the majority of their users don't want to be tracked if you ask them in the abstract without specifying any consequences for saying no, so what does DNT actually change?
# [00:53] <AryehGregor> Of course if you ask people whether they'd like to be tracked, all else being equal, they'll say no.
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# [00:54] <zewt> i thought the main point was to act as an explicit "opt out" for purposes of opt-out legislation, but given that the spec allows browsers to send it by default, that seems out the window
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> Yes, that's the killer problem. The site doesn't know if the user has actually opted out, or if something has opted out for them.
# [00:54] <AryehGregor> If it's actually honored, every random piece of software out there is going to helpfully set it off. Why not?
# [00:55] <zewt> well, it's not even *trying* since the spec explicitly allows UAs to send DNT: 1 as the default
# [00:55] <AryehGregor> User tracking is a tradeoff of privacy versus utility, it can't be addressed by posing a one-sided question.
# [00:55] <zewt> which is basically expending bits in every HTTP request to say "people don't like being spied on", which is just wasted bytes
# [00:55] <AryehGregor> Pretty much.
# [00:56] <zewt> may as well put a post-it on your car window, "do not smash"
# [00:56] <zewt> DNS: 1
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> The real questions you have to ask are: Are you, a user, willing to use this site even though it might track you? And are you, as a website provider, willing to provide service to these users even though you can't track them?
# [00:57] <AryehGregor> Those are the tradeoffs people face.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> In practice, websites use tracking that's hard to evade because it uses the same mechanism as things that users actually want, namely cookies.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> And similar things.
# [00:58] <AryehGregor> Not to mention entirely server-side tracking by IP address or other fingerprinting.
# [00:58] <kbrosnan> if people knew what kind of data ad/marketing agencies had on them i doubt many would be happy with the picture it paints of them
# [00:59] <AryehGregor> kbrosnan, of course not. But sites track users because they need to generate revenue to provide a free or lower-cost service, and tracking helps generate revenue.
# [01:00] <AryehGregor> If sites have less revenue, users suffer as a result.
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# [01:00] <AryehGregor> You could even go so far to say that users who deliberately try to generate less revenue, such as by opting out of tracking, are leeching off other users.
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# [01:01] <AryehGregor> They're refusing to compromise on their personal preferences while profiting from the fact that others are willing to compromise.
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't go that far, but portraying tracking as evil certainly makes no sense to me.
# [01:02] <AryehGregor> Or arguing that users should have some right to be exempt from it, while they're using services funded partly by tracking.
# [01:03] <zewt> tracking information about me, without telling me you're doing it, what you're storing or giving me any way to erase your data--that's a blatant violation of privacy by a whole lot of people's measures
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# [01:04] <kbrosnan> maybe it finaly forces a pay for content model. guess we'll see where nytimes is in several months / couple years
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> Not by mine. If I walk into a store, I expect that I might be videotaped and that information might be saved indefinitely.
# [01:04] <AryehGregor> Anytime I provide information to someone else, I have no particular expectation that they won't save it and use it somehow.
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# [01:04] <AryehGregor> If I don't want them to, I should refrain from providing the information.
# [01:05] <zewt> by wearing a bag over your head when you walk into the store?
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> If I really wanted to, I'd have to wear a mask or something, yeah. Fortunately, I don't care.
# [01:05] <kbrosnan> currently your only option is to stay out of the web completely and live a cash lifestyle
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> I also have to go now.
# [01:05] <AryehGregor> Bye.
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# [03:29] <OreoCookie> can anyoner point me to where on whatwg <a name> has been depriciated? It just started showing as a warning in the validator, I have no idea
# [03:29] <OreoCookie> had*
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# [06:25] <jacobolus> is there any way to save the current canvas path and fetch it back later?
# [06:26] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: if you don't get an answer here, you might also try asking over on #html5
# [06:26] <jacobolus> huh. I didn't know that existed. I guess I can join it :)
# [06:27] <jacobolus> in this particular question, I'm not necessarily needing that function, just trying to figure out what's possible
# [06:27] <jacobolus> I'm having a lot of fun writing canvas code in coffeescript
# [06:27] <MikeSmith> coffeescript seems pretty cool
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> I've not messed around with it yet at all
# [06:28] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: I can do this kind of thing http://pastie.textmate.org/private/mwt5aikrepgnsl3eaz8cq
# [06:28] <MikeSmith> pretty clean
# [06:29] <jacobolus> and then later on http://pastie.textmate.org/private/nww6wsqfpftshry6pt0jg
# [06:29] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: yeah, it's possible to make the code very clean
# [06:29] <jacobolus> because creating anon functions is so syntactically cheap
# [06:30] <jacobolus> it means I start using a lot more of them everywhere
# [06:31] <sharksoda> it looks like pseudocode almost
# [06:31] <MikeSmith> it's funny how syntax differences can affect programming style
# [06:31] <jacobolus> yeah, it makes a huge difference
# [06:32] <jacobolus> `function (args) { return foo; }` vs `(args) -> foo`
# [06:32] <jacobolus> or in the case w/o args, even better, `function () { return foo; }` vs `-> foo`
# [06:32] <jacobolus> makes it so that code doing tricky functional stuff is actually readable, instead of buried in a mass of syntax
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# [06:33] <jacobolus> I think for instance if you took the code in John Resig's Ninja book and translated to coffeescript, understanding what it was doing would be much less mental effort
# [06:34] <jacobolus> [obviously doesn't apply to the whole book, some of which uses JS features like `with` not used in CS]
# [06:35] <jacobolus> [though actually it would be possible to bring those features into CS by making a couple helper functions for them, as in CS it's possible to wrap raw JS in backticks]
# [06:37] <MikeSmith> there does seem to be a lot of momentum behind CS now
# [06:37] <jacobolus> I really like it
# [06:37] <MikeSmith> one of those things that makes it a lot easier to program Web applications now then it used to be
# [06:38] <MikeSmith> it's hard to imagine now writing a Web app without having Firebug or Web Inspector or whatever for debugging
# [06:38] <jacobolus> I'm still not entirely convinced about any of the client-side structured GUI frameworks around, but that might just be lack of close familiarity
# [06:39] <jacobolus> yes, with no debugger/repl programming is awful
# [06:39] <jacobolus> that goes for pretty much any language
# [06:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [06:40] <MikeSmith> it was that way for Javascript for a long time though
# [06:40] <jacobolus> I even think C would be a lot nicer to write code in if it had a widespread repl
# [06:40] <MikeSmith> before Firebug
# [06:40] <jacobolus> yeah, back when men were men &c.
# [06:40] <MikeSmith> heh
# [06:40] <jacobolus> also, browser inconsistencies were a lot more obnoxious at that point
# [06:41] <jacobolus> and everything was semi-broken, it was easy to accidentally cause crashes or memory leaks, &c. &c.
# [06:41] <jacobolus> JS in the browser is getting pretty nice
# [06:41] <jacobolus> it's still not python, but it's getting better :)
# [06:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, it's come a long way
# [06:42] <MikeSmith> as far as a C repl, I guess I've never used a shell environment with a compiled language and don't have such a clear idea of how it would work
# [06:43] * sharksoda writes C daily
# [06:44] <jacobolus> Hixie: we were talking about color spaces &c. the other day; I'm almost at the point where this CIECAM02 color picker is minimally useful http://imgur.com/pwlsn
# [06:45] <MikeSmith> sharksoda: what kind of apps do you work on?
# [06:45] <sharksoda> MikeSmith: games
# [06:46] <MikeSmith> sharksoda: for what kinds of platforms?
# [06:47] <sharksoda> win/mac/linux, no consoles
# [06:47] <MikeSmith> ok
# [06:47] <MikeSmith> have you done much browser-based game development? HTML+JS, I mean
# [06:48] <sharksoda> not yet, it's on my list of things to check out though
# [06:48] <MikeSmith> I ask because it's always useful to hear where game developers see deficiencies in the Web platform that would prevent them from developing Web-based games
# [06:49] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: there are some things that are currently slow that it would be nice to speed up. I think getting the fast arrays and array math from webgl will be very nice
# [06:50] <jacobolus> [though I haven't really played with it yet]
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# [06:50] <jacobolus> also, this isn't games exactly, but it'd be nice to have some native crypto accessible from JavaScript APIs
# [06:51] <jacobolus> also, I'll be somewhat excited when more of the nifty parts of SVG are actually supported across browsers
# [06:56] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: which parts of SVG?
# [06:56] <MikeSmith> about crypto, I remember seeing a proposal about that on the whatwg list some time back
# [06:57] <sharksoda> MikeSmith, a few common needs for games I can see being troublesome would be need for gamepads and fullscreen
# [06:57] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: for example, the filter effects
# [06:58] <sharksoda> (of course, I don't think i.e. flash can do gamepads either)
# [06:59] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: for my part, I also really really wish there was a color-profile-supporting web drawing API
# [07:00] <jacobolus> MikeSmith: I think I might at some point end up writing code for parsing PNG images and adding a profile to them (or when possible just setting the 'sRGB' flag), and then just draw on a canvas off-screen, get the PNG, add the profile, and show it w/ a data: url
# [07:01] <jacobolus> but I haven't gotten around to reading enough of the PNG spec to figure out how to do the bits needed to accomplish that
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# [07:02] <jacobolus> oh, wow, it looks like the filter effects support in webkit has made substantial progress since last I looked
# [07:02] <jacobolus> http://www.webkit.org/projects/svg/status.xml
# [07:02] <jacobolus> [although "Requires build-webkit --filters to enable"]
# [07:02] <jacobolus> [so still not really usable in production]
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> I didn't know that code had made it in yet
# [07:04] <MikeSmith> that was the big remaining thing the Webkit SVG support was lacking, I think
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# [07:21] <ako> <MikeSmith> [...] deficiencies in the Web platform [...] <- Audio is awful, lack of Ogg/Vorbis support in IE9+ and Safari is also annoying
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# [07:22] <aho> also missing: full screen and mouse grabbing
# [07:22] <aho> and yea... gamepad support :>
# [07:22] <MikeSmith> there is ongoing discussion about full screen
# [07:22] <MikeSmith> and has been some about mouse grabbing
# [07:23] <MikeSmith> gamepad support, I dunno
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# [07:24] <aho> it's also annoying that there isn't a lossy rgba format
# [07:24] <aho> i still blame mozilla for that, by the way
# [07:24] <aho> :>
# [07:25] <aho> http://kaioa.com/node/104 <- splicing images together kinda works though
# [07:25] <aho> but it's not really an option for background-images or regular images
# [07:26] <aho> http://kaioa.com/b/1102/svgjng/index.html <- emulating it via svg also doesnt really work due to some quirk in the svg specs :/
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# [07:27] <aho> about 50% of the renderers use linerRGB (which is technically correct, but silly) and the other half uses sRGB (which is technically wrong, but it's like masking works everywhere)
# [07:28] <MikeSmith> a good place to discuss gamepad events would be on the public-webevents@w3.org mailing list
# [07:28] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/
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# [08:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ seems to be responding really really slowly the last couple days
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# [08:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it responds reasonably to me, but let's see what's going on
# [08:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: The validator process on that host is consuming > 90% of CPU
# [08:33] <MikeSmith> wow
# [08:34] <MikeSmith> some bot hitting it, maybe?
# [08:34] <hsivonen> let's see...
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# [08:39] <hsivonen> looks like there's been a Firefox extension hitting it
# [08:39] <hsivonen> but now the hits have stopped but the process still consumes CPU resources excessively
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# [08:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it should be better now.
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# [08:42] <hsivonen> this looks bad, though, since it seems there's a way to get the validator entangled in excessive compute for at least 15 minutes after the validation request
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# [08:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: that does sound less than ideal
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# [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: coincidentally, I notice that the instance I have running on w3.org/html/check was right now logging massive numbers of messages like this:
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> Desired survivor size 44695552 bytes, new threshold 7 (max 15)
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> [PSYoungGen: 21029K->128K(305856K)] 34967K->14066K(1004928K), 0.0010770 secs] [Times: user=0.00 sys=0.00, real=0.00 secs]
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> 1005653.545: [Full GC (System) [PSYoungGen: 128K->0K(305856K)] [PSOldGen: 13938K->13990K(699072K)] 14066K->13990K(1004928K) [PSPermGen: 16922K->16922K(21248K)], 0.0715880 secs] [Times: user=0.07 sys=0.00, real=0.08 secs]
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> 1005653.635: [GC
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> oh wait
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> that's another process
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> which I just killed…
# [08:54] <MikeSmith> oops
# [08:55] <MikeSmith> somebody else was running it under the screen session I have set up for the validator.nu instance
# [08:55] <MikeSmith> so, their bad for doing that
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# [09:06] <micheil> any editors of http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-messaging-api-20110414/ about?
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> micheil: I don't think any of them hang out on IRC on freenode, but dom is on #dap and #webapps on irc.w3.org, port 6665
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> oh
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> maxf is on freenode on #w3c
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# [09:11] <micheil> hmm..
# [09:11] <micheil> well, yeah, essentially I really think that the API there is kinda crap.
# [09:12] <jacobolus> oh, aho left. you can do lossy rgba by doing a jpg and then adding a mask
# [09:12] <jacobolus> at least in webkit
# [09:13] <MikeSmith> micheil: send comments to public-device-apis@w3.org
# [09:13] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/
# [09:14] <MikeSmith> micheil: "This draft proposes a vastly different approach to the previously published version, using URI schemes as a way to address different messaging protocols instead of using separate methods. The group is specifically looking for feedback on which approach is felt like the most useful."
# [09:15] <MikeSmith> I guess the previous version is http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-messaging-api-20110120/
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# [09:16] <micheil> hmm..
# [09:16] <micheil> I feel like the messaging interface should inherit from DOM Events
# [09:16] <micheil> like the WebSocket object.
# [09:16] <MikeSmith> that would be useful feedback I think
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# [09:17] <MikeSmith> looking at the commit logs for that draft, it seems like Dominique is the main one working on it these days
# [09:17] <MikeSmith> so chatting with him about it might be useful
# [09:17] <micheil> okay
# [09:18] <hsivonen> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2095083 interesting
# [09:18] <MikeSmith> micheil: I don't think that draft has gotten much review outside of the DAP WG yet
# [09:18] <micheil> okay
# [09:18] <micheil> I just saw it through the latest Weekly WHATWG
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# [09:19] <MikeSmith> "Google just hired him full-time for a year to work solely on xvp8"
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# [09:20] <MikeSmith> micheil: I'll ask Dom to consider posting a message to the public-webapps list asking for comments
# [09:20] <micheil> xvp8?>
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# [09:24] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/rbultje/x264/tree/xvp8 has still not be updated, though
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# [09:25] <MikeSmith> so if he's been working on it again for the last month, he must be maintaining the code elsewhere
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# [09:39] <MikeSmith> ah, it's 選挙カー season in Japan once again
# [09:39] <MikeSmith> public nuisance
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# [09:40] <ezoe> it's shave we still use such old way.
# [09:40] <ezoe> shame
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# [09:40] <ezoe> we can't use internet for policitial activities.
# [09:41] <ezoe> oh wait, this is #whatwg. why there is a japanese in here.
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# [09:50] <micheil> MikeSmith: did I manage to send you a message before my connection dropped at 09:43?
# [09:51] <micheil> (time based on log time)
# [09:51] <micheil> so, about 5 minutes ago.
# [09:51] <MikeSmith> micheil: last message I got here from you was at :18
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> or :17
# [09:52] <micheil> okay, would you be able to review a proposal for the messaging WebIDL?
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> sure
# [09:52] <micheil> cheers
# [09:52] <micheil> just working on it.
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> OK
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> can't promise I can review it today/tonight
# [09:52] <MikeSmith> but can tomorrow
# [09:53] <MikeSmith> I have a bunch of phone conferences tonight
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# [09:53] <MikeSmith> and trying to get some validator changes in today
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> which reminds me…
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have a review request out to you still
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# [09:54] <MikeSmith> the one for checking URLs in meta refresh values
# [09:55] <MikeSmith> there's still no rush on getting it reviewed
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# [09:55] <MikeSmith> because it's not blocking me on anything else
# [09:56] <MikeSmith> just hadn't heard back from you on it, so wasn't sure if you remembered
# [09:56] <jacobolus> I don't understand the mozGetAsFile / toBlob thing
# [09:56] <jacobolus> what's wrong w/ PNGs?
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# [09:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I didn't realize that there's an outstanding review request. sorry
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> no problem
# [09:58] <MikeSmith> should I re-send it?
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# [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, r=hsivonen.
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> cool
# [10:00] <MikeSmith> thanks
# [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry about missing it when you sent it
# [10:01] <MikeSmith> no worries
# [10:01] <MikeSmith> I forgot about it too, til now :)
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# [10:05] <micheil> what's the difference between a sequence<DOMString> and DOMString[]
# [10:05] <micheil> ?
# [10:06] <Lachy> micheil, that difference was just discussed on public-webapps recently
# [10:06] <micheil> okay..
# [10:07] <Lachy> I'll get a link.
# [10:07] <micheil> k, cheers
# [10:08] <Lachy> micheil, start here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011AprJun/0203.html
# [10:08] <Lachy> and read the rest of the messages in that thread
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# [10:12] <micheil> so, for something like an set of file attachments
# [10:12] <micheil> I'd probably go with sequence<Blob>
# [10:12] <micheil> or sequence<File>
# [10:13] <micheil> (referencing the File API where needed)
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# [10:26] <MikeSmith> the "clearly state that there must be only one character encoding declaration in a document" spec bug I filed has been open for a month now with no response
# [10:26] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12054
# [10:26] <MikeSmith> two months
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# [10:43] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You should talk to the team contact aboput how to escalate
# [10:43] <MikeSmith> heh
# [10:44] <micheil> MikeSmith: I think this is right: https://gist.github.com/ebd79f6cd4f620fc4fa7
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# [10:45] * MikeSmith looks now
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# [10:45] <micheil> Essentially the previous draft had a good API (only instead of create* they become constructors)
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# [10:46] <micheil> as we don't do:
# [10:46] <micheil> createXMLHTTPRequest
# [10:46] <micheil> we just do:
# [10:46] <micheil> new XMLHTTPRequest()
# [10:48] * MikeSmith compares with IDL in that previous draft
# [10:49] <micheil> The main changes are:
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# [10:49] <micheil> - the additional DOMEvents inheritance
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# [10:50] <micheil> - the change of things from being required DOMString[]'s to being optionally a DOMString or an Array of DOMString's
# [10:50] <micheil> - same with EmailAddress[]
# [10:50] <micheil> - uses sequence<Blob> for attachments
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [10:51] <micheil> SMSMessage should inherit from both SMSMessageProperties and Message
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# [10:51] <micheil> I wasn't sure whether the syntax for that was:
# [10:51] <MikeSmith> what's the use case of allowing an Array?
# [10:51] <micheil> SMSMessage : Message, SMSMessageProperties {}
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# [10:52] <micheil> MikeSmith: multiple recipients
# [10:52] <micheil> I want to send a message directly to john, fred, and bob
# [10:52] <MikeSmith> it seems strange they didn't allow for that before
# [10:52] <hsivonen> dear lazy IRC, does XHR support XML parsing only for XML content types?
# [10:53] <hsivonen> or does it allow, e.g. text/plain or text/html to be parsed as XML?
# [10:53] <micheil> MikeSmith: the previous draft did.
# [10:53] <MikeSmith> oh, OK
# [10:53] <micheil> hsivonen: hmm.. I don't think it does even support XML parsing, does it?
# [10:53] <hsivonen> micheil: it sure does
# [10:53] <micheil> actually, yeah, it does: http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/#document-response-entity-body
# [10:54] <micheil> so, it has to have +xml in it.
# [10:54] <micheil> text/xml, application/xml, text/foo+xml
# [10:55] <hsivonen> ok. so in which spec will annevk be setting override MIME type to non-null?
# [10:56] <hsivonen> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest-2/#dom-xmlhttprequest-overridemimetype
# [10:57] <micheil> MikeSmith: any thoughts on syntax?
# [10:58] <hsivonen> I suppose there will be no one explaining XHR Level 2 design decisions to me until annevk returns
# [10:58] <MikeSmith> micheil: no, it looks sane to me overall
# [10:58] <hsivonen> yay for getting stuff done in Q2
# [10:58] <micheil> okay.
# [10:59] <MikeSmith> micheil: I never looked at the original draft at all before today, so I don't have much to go on. but I think what you have at https://gist.github.com/ebd79f6cd4f620fc4fa7 is worth more review and discussion
# [10:59] <hsivonen> I'm rather unhappy about the prospect of the MIME type of XHR getting overridden *after* the request has been initiated
# [10:59] <micheil> MikeSmith: Do most of the JavaScript specs actually have people who write javascript on a daily or weekly basis on their authors list?
# [11:01] <micheil> :/ I have a very awful feeling that my internet speed has been shaped
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# [11:03] <MikeSmith> micheil: if you mean the EcmaScript specs, I dunno
# [11:03] <micheil> no, the JavaScript API's
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> if you mean the W3C specs that have APIs with JS bindings
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> oh
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> no, those don't I guess
# [11:03] <MikeSmith> mostly
# [11:03] <micheil> eg, Geolocation, WebSockets, etc.
# [11:04] <jgraham> micheil: Inevitably spec editors (of all types) tend to be langauge geeks rather than working authors
# [11:04] <jgraham> Since working authors are, well, working as authors
# [11:04] <micheil> if they don't, then they should probably put out an open hand to get people on board who use the languages
# [11:04] <jgraham> In theory the open hand is there
# [11:04] <MikeSmith> well, Hixie doesn't write JS on a weekly basis, but he seems to be able to write sane APIs
# [11:04] <jgraham> Although the W3C hand is "open except where it isn't"
# [11:05] <jgraham> And in general the problem is not that feedback is unwelcome but that there is a barrier to entry
# [11:05] <MikeSmith> I guess the DAP list has less participation from working Web developers
# [11:05] <MikeSmith> though they are trying to get more
# [11:05] <jgraham> Caused by the fact that people don't know that feedback is welcome or don't have time to participate or whatever
# [11:05] <micheil> MikeSmith: on hixie, "saner APIs"
# [11:06] <micheil> I'd really love to see the W3C become entirely open.
# [11:07] <micheil> So that individual developers have a say, rather than just individuals backed by corporations.
# [11:07] <MikeSmith> I think the current crop of APIs in Web-platform specs are way better than ones we have had in the past, at least
# [11:07] <micheil> there should be no private and public email lists, just public lists.
# [11:08] <MikeSmith> as far as the area of W3C work that I'm involved in, we already pretty much have no private lists
# [11:08] <MikeSmith> all technical discussion takes place on public lists that anyone can subscribe to and post to
# [11:08] <_o> micheil, w3c feels pretty open to me, have never had a problem that way, and I am just an individual developer not backed by any corporation
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# [11:08] <MikeSmith> well, with the exception of the public-html list, which only members of the HTML WG can post to
# [11:09] <MikeSmith> but there are good reasons for that
# [11:09] <webr3> likewise public-rdf is the same, but both rdf and html have *-comments lists for community feedback
# [11:09] <micheil> MikeSmith: to me, a lot of the working groups always have seemed incredibly closed communities.
# [11:09] <jgraham> -comments lists are badness I think
# [11:09] <webr3> (and are still publi)
# [11:10] <micheil> at least public-html is publicly viewable.
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# [11:10] <webr3> micheil, strange, I agree - always thought the same, however found different when I put my assumptions to one side - wonder what it is that conveys that to the masses
# [11:11] <hsivonen> I'm at times annoyed at charter reviews being secret and (especially) Team responses to charter review comments being secret
# [11:11] <othermaciej> hsivonen: did this happen to one of your personal charter review comments?
# [11:12] <MikeSmith> micheil: that culture has changed significantly during the last few years
# [11:12] <webr3> sure as hell there are /many/ more people that are interested and would contrib to the work, but they don't even consider it as being a possibility - perhaps a throw back of older closed up tech groups for geeks-we-know only - as people do openly join and comment on open source projects all the time
# [11:12] <micheil> I think all lists should be public (other wise we could almost have a cable-gate style hacker search for answers :P)
# [11:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: well, I don't send personal charter review comments
# [11:13] <MikeSmith> e.g., the WebApps WG isn't really a unique community at all -- it's sorta several sometimes overlapping communities, and many of the same people who participate on the whatwg mailing list, and here
# [11:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: let's say it has happened with charter review comments that I am interested in
# [11:14] <MikeSmith> micheil: some of the people who post the most useful technical feedback on W3C mailing lists -- stuff that actually results in spec changes -- are not members of any W3C working groups
# [11:15] <MikeSmith> micheil: that lists that matter are all public
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# [11:15] <micheil> I think all lists fullstop should be public.
# [11:16] <micheil> there shouldn't be that veil of secrecy
# [11:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: basically, I've never noticed any other organization than Mozilla making their charter review comments public
# [11:16] <jgraham> MikeSmith: There are some things that are still very much closed e.g. only capital-M Members get any substantive voice in the spec licensing
# [11:16] <hsivonen> othermaciej: and all responses to charter review comments are secret
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, true
# [11:16] <MikeSmith> jgraham: well, not totally true
# [11:17] <jgraham> Sure, there is feedback from the community
# [11:17] <micheil> For instance, it's only recently that I've started asking questions and suggesting things in the WebSocket's discussions, as I didn't feel as though any of my comments were ever being heard, unless I spoke to hixie directly
# [11:17] <MikeSmith> yeah, I would not say that are the only ones that get a substantive voice
# [11:17] <jgraham> But it is possible for the Members to ignore that entirely if they choose
# [11:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: not exactly. because it's not being put a simple vote
# [11:18] <jgraham> Oh, well maybe it is even more complex than I thought.
# [11:19] <MikeSmith> micheil: not sure what to suggest about that. That's not a problem unique to W3C working groups. You can post to the whatwg list and never get responses either. It's mostly just a question of timing and people being too busy to respond
# [11:20] <MikeSmith> micheil: have you posted to the hybi list?
# [11:20] <jgraham> MikeSmith: (Hixie will later point out that he responds to all substantive comments to whatwg)
# [11:20] <hsivonen> doh. I failed to put [XHR2] in the subject line of my email to public-webapps
# [11:20] <jgraham> MikeSmith: (I can't verify this)
# [11:21] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, in my experience, he actually does
# [11:21] <MikeSmith> though it may be a year or two before he does
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# [11:22] <jgraham> Indeed, the latency can be quite high
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> I think it's lower these days, though
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> for the last couple years
# [11:23] <jgraham> It depends what you comment on, I think
# [11:23] <MikeSmith> sure
# [11:26] <benschwarz> MikeSmith: You're right about too busy. I'd love to be as involved as I was even a few months ago
# [11:26] <benschwarz> so I think the answer is that organisations like the w3c and whatwg need to make it clear about the feedback that they're looking for…
# [11:26] <benschwarz> in micro updates
# [11:26] <benschwarz> perhaps tweets to discussion threads about given things here or there
# [11:27] <MikeSmith> that requires people who have some time and enthusiasm for doing that
# [11:27] <benschwarz> because I know what peices of web technology I feel strongly about if I see them in my twitter feed
# [11:27] <MikeSmith> karl was great about getting information out when he was on the W3C team
# [11:27] <benschwarz> and would act at the time
# [11:28] <benschwarz> MikeSmith: perhaps its time that the w3c employed some "developer evanglists" like technology companies do
# [11:28] <benschwarz> budgetry is hard, of course
# [11:29] <benschwarz> there does need to be a change of mindset though
# [11:29] <benschwarz> amongst the greater web™
# [11:30] <benschwarz> also, I've posted to whatwg and never had any replies
# [11:30] <benschwarz> I guess you wonder why you bothered when that happens
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> developer evangelism is something that everybody on the team is expected to do as part of their job, I guess
# [11:31] <jgraham> benschwarz: The thing about microupdates is that the s/n is too low for people to follow
# [11:31] <MikeSmith> I suppose Philippe and Doug do a lot more of it than I do
# [11:32] <jgraham> benschwarz: If you are only interested in one message out of 100 you aren't going to subscribe
# [11:32] <jgraham> And if you are interested in 50 / 100 then you should probably be on the list instead
# [11:32] <jgraham> Plus the world isn't really organised like that
# [11:33] <jgraham> I mean specs develop in parallel, so it's not like there is exactly one thing at any given time
# [11:33] <MikeSmith> I think the focus more should be on trying to get features in specs actually implemented on deployed on a large scale
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> anyway, I need to step away for a bit
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> back later
# [11:40] <micheil> benschwarz: I'd probably do it for free, in the vein that I want a better web.
# [11:40] <micheil> Just like I contribute to Open-Source software, I want better software, libraries, platforms, frameworks, etc.
# [11:43] <benschwarz> micheil, the very fact that you log here somewhat proves that
# [11:44] <benschwarz> but thats true of all of us, isn't it?
# [11:44] <micheil> benschwarz: fair point
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# [11:57] <jacobolus> so I'm finding in my current application that I really want to get at the content of the current transformation matrix in several places
# [11:57] <jacobolus> in canvas
# [11:58] <jacobolus> I think I'm going to just write helper functions wrapping up all the canvas transformation functions and simultaneously saving the current matrix in jquery.data
# [11:58] <jacobolus> in a stack, that gets pushed to/popped from when I do save/restore
# [11:59] <jacobolus> then I'll be able to get the current transformation at any time, and do various useful stuff with it, like figuring out the nearest pixel to a point so that I can draw along pixel boundaries and avoid antialiasing
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# [12:01] <jacobolus> and keeping the translation but resetting the scale/rotation, so that I can draw relative to device pixels, but at a given point in the current transformation space
# [12:02] <jacobolus> I don't think using stuff that looks like "translate(context, ...)" will be too much worse than "context.translate(...)"
# [12:02] <jacobolus> in terms of code readability
# [12:03] <jacobolus> though it might make more sense to just make a "canvas wrapper" object and make all these things methods
# [12:04] <jacobolus> in which case I wouldn't have to bother with jquery.data for saving the state
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# [12:51] <jacobolus> typo in css 2d transforms spec
# [12:51] <jacobolus> "The CSSMatrix interface represents a 4x4 homogeneous matrix"
# [12:51] <jacobolus> .... "Each of these attributes represents one of the values in the 3x2 matrix."
# [12:52] <karlcow> benschwarz: does the work of shelley powers on the blog http://blog.whatwg.org/ or mine on http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/ help?
# [12:52] <karlcow> Would you prefer something in addition of that?
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# [12:58] <hsivonen> browser vendors who maintain XML parsing capability might be interested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2011Apr/0005.html
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# [12:59] <jacobolus> who was it that was telling me yesterday about canvas matrices being written in column-major order? well bah, svg matrices are written row-major
# [12:59] <jacobolus> annoying
# [13:00] <jacobolus> is it possible to create/manipulate CSSMatrix objects from JavaScript?
# [13:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: I presume we would collectively ignore any attempt to require procesing external entities
# [13:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: they aren't really *requiring* it. they are using words that give more ammo to people who want to argue in bug reports.
# [13:02] <jacobolus> oh, I guess that's not a typo in the css 2d transform spec; it's just really confusing
# [13:02] <jacobolus> confusing since that spec doesn't explain why 4x4
# [13:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah. I am unconvinced that the cost of arguing upfront is not greater than the cost of wontfixing the bugs but maybe I am wrong
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# [13:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i see little value in the xml profiles spec to begin with
# [13:06] <zcorpan> so i've put it on my ignore list
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# [13:07] <jacobolus> oh, I see, it's called WebKitCSSMatrix
# [13:08] <jacobolus> I guess if I'm writing code for doing matrix math I should defer to that where available?
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# [13:15] <Philip`> jacobolus: You could probably override CanvasRenderingContext2D.prototype.translate or something, maybe, though that's probably evil
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# [13:16] <jacobolus> Philip`: override it?
# [13:17] <Philip`> Like set it to a different function
# [13:17] <Philip`> which will get called when you do ctx.translate()
# [13:17] <jacobolus> hmm, I don't want to do that
# [13:17] <jacobolus> that seems evil :)
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# [13:17] <Philip`> (I don't know if all browsers support that, though)
# [13:17] <Philip`> It is :-)
# [13:17] <jacobolus> I think the wrapper way is best maybe
# [13:17] <jacobolus> just make a "SnazzyCanvas" class
# [13:18] <jacobolus> Philip`: did you see some of my nifty coffeescript canvas bits?
# [13:18] <Philip`> Someone should make a standard canvas wrapper class with all the nice API features that people ever ask for
# [13:18] <Philip`> rather than everybody either writing their own or asking for it to be in the spec
# [13:19] <jacobolus> Philip`: I've got helper functions like these: http://pastie.textmate.org/private/igg5gtdbue68crt6jjdrra
# [13:19] <jacobolus> so I can then write stuff like http://pastie.textmate.org/private/o96lu7ppljzjd1feijzg
# [13:21] <jacobolus> Philip`: I think a standard canvas wrapper is a good idea, though if I was writing it I'd be tempted to use a lot of anonymous functions that people using javascript instead of coffeescript might not be the biggest fans of, in in JS they're kind of syntactically heavy
# [13:24] <jacobolus> [whoops, a couple typos in those, but they give the right idea]
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# [13:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I see at least that "minimum XML processor profile" has at least changed to not require external entity processing
# [13:32] <MikeSmith> originally, it did
# [13:32] <MikeSmith> so there was no profile that browsers could match
# [13:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: whoa. that was a pretty bad "originally" starting point
# [13:32] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [13:33] <zcorpan> i think it was in that state when i looked at it before
# [13:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-xml-proc-profiles-20100518/#minProfile
# [13:33] <MikeSmith> I remember commenting on that at time
# [13:33] <MikeSmith> well, "commenting" here at least
# [13:33] <MikeSmith> not on any list
# [13:41] <jacobolus> Philip`: oh wow, speaking of canvas wrappers: in may 2008, john resig's processing.js was 1.7 KLOC. Now it's 19 KLOC
# [13:42] <jacobolus> (700 KB. ooph)
# [13:44] <jacobolus> anyway, though, if there are obvious "nice API features that people ask for", I'd love to hear about them
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# [13:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, it seems like the XML Profiles "Recommended" thing is a bit of a naming issue
# [13:57] <MikeSmith> they could label it something else
# [13:58] <MikeSmith> and it might actually be worthwhile to suggest another label for it
# [13:58] <zcorpan> anyone know what problem they're solving with that spec?
# [13:58] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: hsivonen already suggested 'Legacy'
# [13:59] <MikeSmith> heh
# [13:59] <MikeSmith> ah, I see that now
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# [14:00] <zcorpan> maybe rename the minimal profile to 'Minimal legacy'
# [14:00] <MikeSmith> I guess I should have read his whole message, rather than jumping around
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# [14:00] <MikeSmith> I don't think "Legacy" is going to fly with that WG
# [14:00] <zcorpan> jumping around is good for blood circulation
# [14:00] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [14:59] <jacobolus> Philip`: oh, you probably know about this thing, but it's kind of neat http://code.google.com/p/canto-js/source/browse/trunk/canto.js
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# [15:22] <_bga> function C, function T, ...
# [15:22] <_bga> APLer
# [15:24] <_bga> also good smile ._.
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# [16:29] <wilhelm> Oh, this will be fun. Opera handles 204 MIME-types natively, of which only a limited subset should be overridable by registerContentHandler().
# [16:30] <hsivonen> wilhelm: whoa! is there a public list of the mime types?
# [16:30] <wilhelm> hsivonen: Not at the moment. I'm grepping source code. (c:
# [16:30] <hsivonen> wilhelm: does that include weird stuff like mechanisms that *ask* the cellular provider's transparent proxy to MITM HTTP connections for acceleration
# [16:31] <hsivonen> BTW, that request header is pure bloat when the user is on a network that doesn't have that kind of transparent proxy
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# [16:31] <wilhelm> hsivonen: No, I don't think so.
# [16:32] <wilhelm> Oh, it seems it's just 102.
# [16:32] * wilhelm digs in.
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# [16:58] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: nice catch (about Disallowing dots in the protocol argument of registerProtocolHandler()
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# [16:59] <erlehmann> hsivonen, usually, cell providers do that without asking. or so i experienced in in the germanies.
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# [17:00] <hsivonen> erlehmann: do what exactly?
# [17:00] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Thanks. register*Handler() are very nice, but they're disasters waiting to happen. We have to step very carefully here. (c:
# [17:01] <hsivonen> erlehmann: Opera Mobile 11 sends an X-EBO-UA request header
# [17:02] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: true, but it's a very useful feature, and most very useful features often seem to have some gotchas waiting
# [17:02] <erlehmann> hsivonen, MITM HTTP connections.
# [17:02] <erlehmann> i switched away from t-mobile for that reason.
# [17:02] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Absolutely.
# [17:02] <erlehmann> the O2 salesman apparently figured out he can get me with „we respect net neutrality“
# [17:02] <hsivonen> erlehmann: If my googling skills work, this tells some proprietary product hosted by the network provider that Opera accepts stuff that has been munged by this EBO thing
# [17:02] <erlehmann> hehehe
# [17:03] <hsivonen> erlehmann: isn't there a law against the network conduit tampering with the messages in transit?
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# [17:04] <hsivonen> the value of the X-EBO-UA header is remarkably long
# [17:04] <erlehmann> hsivonen, there should be, but i have no idea how it would apply. t-mobile also actually seemed to block voip and instant messaging services back then, charging to „enable it“ (probably still do it now)
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# [17:05] <hsivonen> erlehmann: wow. that sounds like U.S. badness--not something that should be happening in the EU
# [17:05] <wilhelm> hsivonen: I wish there was. My favourite operator MITH munging bug was the one where an operator proxy looked at the DOCTYPE of the loaded document. If it was XHTML, it would serve it with an XML MIME type instead of text/html.
# [17:06] <hsivonen> the European style is tampering with DNS to change the records of domains that the police doesn't approve of
# [17:06] <wilhelm> s/MITH/MITM
# [17:06] <hsivonen> wilhelm: bad craziness. what was that supposed to accomplish?
# [17:06] <wilhelm> Since there are only five valid XHTML documents on the Web, every single Web page broke.
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# [17:07] <wilhelm> hsivonen: I have no idea. (c:
# [17:07] <erlehmann> hsivonen, what i dislike most about those compressing proxies is that they use assumptions that work in 90% of cases and break stuff in the rest of cases. like, the admin tools for an imageboard i shall not name did not work anymore (we switched to HTTPS later)
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# [17:08] <wilhelm> So, uh, there are a couple of old Opera OEM deliveries that will always parse XML as HTML. :P
# [17:08] <wilhelm> That was the lesser evil.
# [17:08] <erlehmann> wilhelm, i find that funny.
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# [17:08] <erlehmann> those who live by the XHTML doctype, die by it.
# [17:09] <wilhelm> Well, it was just Opera that did the dying. :P
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# [17:09] <erlehmann> oh well, yeah, some compressing proxies actually manage to invalidate perfectly fine XML documents by inserting bogus markup.
# [17:11] <wilhelm> A related, very fun bug is that some IIS servers insist on sending text/xml instead of text/html to Opera.
# [17:11] <erlehmann> >IIS
# [17:11] <erlehmann> i see what you did there
# [17:11] <wilhelm> Based on accept headers? No. Browser sniffing.
# [17:11] <wilhelm> So all other browsers get text/html, and all works well.
# [17:14] <wilhelm> Here's an example: http://home.mcafee.com/campaign.aspx?cid=77419&affid=0&ctst=1
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# [18:39] <karlcow> wilhelm: sounds like http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2011/03/30/improving-interoperability-the-story-of-a-bug
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# [18:40] <karlcow> yup
# [18:40] <karlcow> Server: Microsoft-IIS/7.0
# [18:40] <karlcow> X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
# [18:41] <karlcow> for curl -sI "http://home.mcafee.com/campaign.aspx?cid=77419&affid=0&ctst=1"
# [18:41] <karlcow> http://www.rohanradio.com/getting-aspnet-to-play-nice-with-opera-wget
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# [18:44] <TabAtkins> Sigh. Abstraction is hard.
# [18:44] <jgraham> Let's go shopping?
# [18:44] <GarethAdams|Home> TabAtkins: Abstraction is (a kind of) hard
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# [18:44] <TabAtkins> Heh.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Anyway, one of my team just found a problem with my Animations proposal, so I'm drawing a diagram to more clearly illustrate it (and have an excuse to improve my SVG), then I'll have to brainstorm around the issue.
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# [18:48] <hober> Hixie: you might get to publish HTML5 in HTML5 after all: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9961#c3
# [18:48] * jgraham learns to his amuement that the PC alternative to "brainstorm" is "mindshower"
# [18:48] <jgraham> *amusement
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Wut.
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# [18:52] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Apparently someone somewhere thinks that brainstorm might be offensive due to the fact that it can also mean "seziure"
# [18:52] <TabAtkins> Someone is retarded.
# [18:53] <TabAtkins> Also: anyone who calls a seizure a "brainstorm" is an idiot, because the term was already taken.
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# [18:53] * jgraham always wonder if they do carefully controlled studies to determine stasistically significant deltas in offence taken for these cases
# [18:53] <jgraham> *statistically
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# [18:55] <jgraham> TabAtkins: If I had access to the proper OED I could probably find out if you are right about the order in which the term was given each meaning
# [18:55] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: And anyone who uses any euphemism is also an idiot, because all terms already existed?
# [18:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: heh, good thought. *logs onto OED*
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Anyone who uses a euphemism that's already taken, and then gets offended by the previous usage, is.
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# [18:56] <jgraham> (obviously I agree that being offened in this case would be ridiculous)
# [18:56] <TabAtkins> Similar to people getting offended by british-english speakers saying "fag".
# [18:56] <jgraham> (but not nearly as ridiculous as using the term "mindshower" in public)
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# [18:58] <jgraham> (I mean honestly, "mindshower"?!)
# [18:58] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: brainstorm seems to have meant a seizure first, so the term was already taken when it came to have its common meaning now
# [18:59] <jgraham> (the only possible use of that has is "I just accidentially looked at goatse and now I need a mindshower")
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# [18:59] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Darn, okay. Well then I have an alternate way to be offended!
# [19:00] <TabAtkins> It's similar to the kerfuffle over Tiger Woods referring to himself as a "spaz", when the term has lost all negative connotations in american english (to the point where nearly all americans are unaware there even *is* a medically pejorative meaning).
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# [19:01] <jcranmer> there is a medically pejorative meaning?
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> It refers to people who are spastic, with that referring to some type of neural disorder.
# [19:02] <jcranmer> I that spazzing just meant freaking out
# [19:02] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: What sense you use a word in is what determines whether it is offensive or not. Certainly, I think "fag" as an insult is still frequently used in much the same way as something more direct like "homo" is, at least when I've had it shouted at me.
# [19:02] <jgraham> jcranmer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasticity
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Of course! Which is yet another layer of idiocy on the mindshower thing.
# [19:02] <TabAtkins> I can use "chuwero" in an offensive manner, despite it being a nonsense racial epithet.
# [19:03] <jcranmer> bullplop
# [19:06] <MikeSmith> about http://html5.org/r/6008 -
# [19:06] <MikeSmith> should <table border> be valid?
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> that is, <table border> instead of <table border="">
# [19:08] <TabAtkins> Unless something went crazy with the decision (given that it was built from Leif's text, not impossible), the two are equivalent in every way.
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# [19:08] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [19:10] <micheil> hmm.. the guys behind the netinfo api should really talk with the sysinfo guys: http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/system-info/Overview.html#network
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# [19:36] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Quit abusing the spec feedback system http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12523
# [19:36] <gsnedders> Meow?
# [19:36] <gsnedders> Meow.
# [19:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are not shoelaces
# [19:37] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Just be glad you haven't seen me with friends here. We have whole conversations just meowing at each other. (And yes, we can tell what we mean.) ^_^
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> Well, sure, you can tunnel information through almost any communication medium.
# [19:39] <jgraham> gsnedders actually does http over ssh over meow
# [19:39] <jgraham> Whenever he wants to tell anyone something he has to phrase it as a POST
# [19:40] <jgraham> Doing the decryption is a bitch though
# [19:40] <gsnedders> Meow?
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# [20:13] <Hixie> benschwarz: when did you send the e-mail that you haven't gotten a reply to?
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# [20:14] <Hixie> benschwarz: with all the htmlwg stuff i haven't been able to respond to feedback at all for a few months now
# [20:14] <Hixie> except for specific things like multitrack
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# [20:50] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: I dunno who I should talk to, but the permissions on http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-content/Overview.html are suddenly borked.
# [20:50] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-content/Overview.src.html is still okay.
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# [20:54] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: checking now
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> weird
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# [20:54] <MikeSmith> all dev.w3.org content is public
# [20:55] <MikeSmith> in my experience
# [20:55] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
# [20:55] <TabAtkins> Dunno how it got messed up.
# [20:56] <TabAtkins> Last CVS-based change was over 6 months ago, and I know it was working normally a month or two ago.
# [20:57] <MikeSmith> fantasai checked in that error page
# [20:57] <MikeSmith> overwrote the actual content
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# [20:57] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see
# [20:57] <TabAtkins> ...
# [20:57] <TabAtkins> awesome
# [20:57] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/css3-content/Overview.html
# [20:58] <TabAtkins> Maybe last thing I checked was the TR?
# [20:58] <TabAtkins> I'll fix it, then.
# [20:58] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/css3-content/Overview.html.diff?r1=1.2;r2=1.3;f=h
# [20:58] <MikeSmith> OK
# [20:58] <TabAtkins> Ooh, I'll bet she used Chrome or something that makes another GET request to the resource when you do a Save.
# [20:59] <MikeSmith> yup
# [20:59] <TabAtkins> SO DUMB
# [20:59] <MikeSmith> well, not dumb
# [20:59] <MikeSmith> fantasai ain't dumb…
# [20:59] * TabAtkins keeps a Firefox up for the sole purpose of saving generated specs.
# [20:59] <TabAtkins> No, Chrome is dumb.
# [20:59] <MikeSmith> ah
# [20:59] <TabAtkins> Fantasai made an easy mistake. Pretty sure I've done that before.
# [21:00] <MikeSmith> me too
# [21:00] <MikeSmith> browsers is dum
# [21:00] * MikeSmith kicks browsers
# [21:02] <TabAtkins> Actually, she would have gotten a nearly-blank page with "unknown request" or whatever on it if she'd done that.
# [21:02] * tw2113 read that with the intro to Beastie Boys' song "You Gotta Fight"
# [21:02] <TabAtkins> I suspect she used one of the wget scripts without supplying proper auth.
# [21:03] <gsnedders> If I wanted to be condesending and annoying, I'd call her a silly little girl at this point.
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# [21:03] <TabAtkins> What's the point in that? It was a simply mistake.
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# [21:04] <gsnedders> to be condesending and annoying
# [21:04] <TabAtkins> The tools for generating our specs are annoying.
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# [21:09] <MikeSmith> respec is better than most
# [21:10] <MikeSmith> OK, I just implemented support for the decision about table border
# [21:10] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/r/6008
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# [21:11] <MikeSmith> value of border must be either 1 or empty string
# [21:11] <bga_> i want 0, 2*Math.PI as default arguments in Canvas2D#arc
# [21:11] <MikeSmith> if anybody cares to test it at http://www.w3.org/html/check
# [21:12] <bga_> writing it each time so annoying
# [21:12] <MikeSmith> and let me know if you find bugs
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# [21:12] <MikeSmith> and/or add comments at http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=825 (and reopen)
# [21:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: If I wanted to be annoying I would laugh at you because they are using respec and not anolis
# [21:14] <bga_> but can wrap .arc in Canvas.prototype
# [21:14] <bga_> yeah
# [21:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: I don't care about Anolis :P
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# [21:17] <wilhelm> Hixie: I would absolutely be more comfortable with a whitelist for registerProtocolHandler() – at least until we see how the feature will be used in the wild.
# [21:17] <MikeSmith> I weep for Anolis, he is dead!
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# [21:24] <wilhelm> Hixie: The same applies to registerContentHandler(), really. Opera's default blacklist would have to be about 100 entries long – only including MIME-types the browser has native support for. We should probably blacklist some MIME-types covered by plugins too. |c:
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# [21:28] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: have you read James Kelman?
# [21:29] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: no
# [21:29] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I'm reading "How late it was, how late"
# [21:30] <MikeSmith> and this is just about the greatest book I have read in a gazillion years
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# [21:37] <TabAtkins> CSSWG doesn't use respec, though. We use a collection of perl scripts that Bert wrote, conveniently packaged into a cgi.
# [21:38] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: sadly, those ain't even perl scripts
# [21:38] <MikeSmith> the source for those this a thing of wonder
# [21:39] <MikeSmith> *is a thing of wonder
# [21:39] <Hixie> wilhelm: yeah; harder to know what to do with the mime type case, realistically, since there are far more types that make sense to whitelist
# [21:39] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: It's mainly C stuff
# [21:39] <TabAtkins> Awesome.
# [21:39] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: no it's not
# [21:39] <jgraham> Oh, I thought it was a complex system of ants and tunnels
# [21:39] <MikeSmith> it is from an era that predates perl and C
# [21:39] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yah, more like that
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# [21:40] <MikeSmith> reading the source of it is an educational experience
# [21:41] <jgraham> It educates you that you have better - or at least less mindbending - things to do with your life?
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# [21:42] <MikeSmith> it's cheaper than other mind-altering substances
# [21:42] <MikeSmith> and less un-legal
# [21:42] <jgraham> Ah, is that also why W3C strictly controls access?
# [21:43] <MikeSmith> yes
# [21:43] <MikeSmith> we cannot unleash the hallucinogenic power of boscode on the unwashed masses
# [21:44] * jgraham presumes "boscode" is an ant-powered analog of bytecode or machine code
# [21:46] <MikeSmith> "boss" code (extra(neous) "s" removed for extra efficiency…)
# [21:47] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/?C=M;O=D
# [21:47] <MikeSmith> good god almighty
# [21:47] <MikeSmith> and they claim that the HTML spec is too big and complicated
# [21:47] <MikeSmith> modularization wtf
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# [21:48] <MikeSmith> solve the complexity problem by spreading it as widely as possible
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# [21:50] <TabAtkins> Basically, yeah.
# [21:50] <TabAtkins> The ideal is a bunch of loosely-interacting modules, so you can read one without having to know too much about the others.
# [21:51] <TabAtkins> This doesn't always happen.
# [21:51] <hober> witness the N grid/layout drafts of late
# [21:51] <TabAtkins> More than that, though, it's a hack around the W3C process. CSS found a way to get a Living Standard within the Rec process.
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# [21:52] <MikeSmith> +1 to living standards
# [21:52] <MikeSmith> as opposed to dead ones
# [21:52] <TabAtkins> The layout drafts are a good example of the "loosely-interacting modules", actually. The interaction surface is still somewhat badly defined, but I'm working on that within Flexbox, and what I learn should spread to Grid.
# [21:53] <TabAtkins> And then to Table, when somebody writes that some day.
# [21:53] <jgraham> TabAtkins: The hack being that you can stop taking anything to Rec and always have N-1 things left to work on?
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# [21:53] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I don't understand what you're trying to make fun of, unfortunately.
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# [21:55] <jgraham> Nothing really. I think The Process is pretty silly. But I am not sure the CSS approach is good either
# [21:56] <jgraham> One effect seems to be that it is easy to ignore the conceptual bits and hope that someone fixes them later
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# [21:56] <TabAtkins> Well, it's already paying dividends with a few specs moving higher in the Rec track well before anything else.
# [21:56] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's a side-effect we've discovered.
# [21:58] <wilhelm> Hixie: Indeed. We could make a low-friction process for the whitelist, though. If we maintain a canonical whitelist accompanying the spec, deploying updated lists to at least Opera installations worldwide is trivial. Opera already phones home once per week, asking for an updated IDN whitelist, browser.js, UA string spoof list, etc. A MIME-type whitelist wouldn't add much overhead. (I don't know if other UAs do something similar, though. If they don't, disregar
# [21:59] <TabAtkins> Chrome obviously does something similar.
# [21:59] <wilhelm> That makes two… (c;
# [21:59] <TabAtkins> And I'm pretty sure FF phones home for some lists. IE does for their compat lists.
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# [22:00] <gsnedders> wilhelm: " If they don't, disregar"
# [22:00] <jgraham> Having to maintain a weekly list for such a little-used feature seems like a drag though
# [22:00] <wilhelm> gsnedders: … disregard this suggestion. :)
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# [22:01] <wilhelm> 21:58 -!- Irssi: Loaded script splitlong
# [22:01] <wilhelm> :P
# [22:01] <gsnedders> wilhelm: Also, go and have fun today. :P
# [22:01] <jgraham> wilhelm: I was about to say, it was you instructing on the use of that :p
# [22:01] <Hixie> ooh how do we get splitlong!
# [22:01] <Hixie> and why is it not a default
# [22:01] <jgraham> gsnedders: Maybe this is his idea of fun
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# [22:01] <wilhelm> /load splitlong.pl
# [22:01] <TabAtkins> Aw yus.
# [22:02] <wilhelm> gsnedders: I am! I'm playing Dragon Age II.
# [22:02] <Hixie> awesome
# [22:02] <wilhelm> gsnedders: And eating cake. An as good birthday as any. (c;
# [22:02] <jgraham> wilhelm: irc with one hand, games with the other and a cocktail balanced on your lap?
# [22:02] <jgraham> Oh cake is better
# [22:03] <tw2113> cake rocks
# [22:03] <wilhelm> jgraham: Pretty much. (c:
# [22:03] * gsnedders is going bowling tomorrow… 9, 19… what's the difference? :)
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# [22:06] <jgraham> wikipedia claims that rock cakes are a common feature in Harry Potter
# [22:06] <jgraham> Is that true?
# [22:07] * jgraham doesn't remember them appearing
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> I recall seeing them at least once.
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> Don't know where, but it definitely pings my memory.
# [22:08] <TabAtkins> ...why?
# [22:09] <jgraham> It just seems wrong. I mean they might pop up once or so
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# [22:09] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't call them a "common feature", no.
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# [22:11] <MikeSmith> Harry Potter books are a painful read
# [22:11] <MikeSmith> but the movies are pretty good
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# [22:12] <MikeSmith> which seems to support the notion that bad books make good movies
# [22:12] <MikeSmith> and good books don't
# [22:12] <tw2113> i haven't read the books, just listened to someone else read them to me
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# [22:13] <MikeSmith> hard to imagine a movie version of "How late it was, how late"
# [22:13] <TabAtkins> They're okay as books. Definitely pretty good for YA fiction.
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# [22:13] <gsnedders> Definitely far better than, e.g., Twilight.
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# [22:14] <MikeSmith> well
# [22:14] <MikeSmith> lacking in humor, all
# [22:14] <MikeSmith> nowhere like the Series of Unfortunate Events books
# [22:14] <TabAtkins> Well, yeah, that's explicitly a humorous series.
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# [22:14] <MikeSmith> as far as young-adult fiction
# [22:15] <MikeSmith> and that movie sucked
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# [22:15] <MikeSmith> because of that ass Jim Carrey
# [22:15] <MikeSmith> who can ruin singlehandedly anything he's in
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# [22:15] <tw2113> i need to get myself re-listening to the 7th HP book
# [22:16] <tw2113> now now, Eternal Sunshine = good
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# [22:17] <TabAtkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemony_Snicket:_The_Unauthorized_Autobiography was a *really* confusing book to read when I hadn't yet heard of the SoUE series.
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# [22:17] <TabAtkins> (My aunt and uncle are friends of the author, so they gave me a free copy.)
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# [22:23] * jgraham will have to agree to disagree with MikeSmith on this
# [22:24] <jgraham> (not the Jim Carrey thing you understand, he really is an ass)
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# [22:28] <MikeSmith> well, there are certainly better books
# [22:28] <MikeSmith> such as "How late it was, how late" by James Kelman
# [22:28] <MikeSmith> which every young adult should read
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# [22:29] <MikeSmith> anyways, time for me to sleep
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# [22:30] <karlcow> おやすみなさい
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# Session Close: Wed Apr 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)