/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 20 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  50. # [01:41] <Hixie> sweet jesus i hate bidi
  51. # [01:42] <Hixie> what happens if you have "english HEBREW HEBREW HEBREW english" and the HEBREW part is so long it splits into three lines?
  52. # [01:42] <Hixie> in ltr
  53. # [01:42] <Hixie> you get "e1 1h \n 2h \n 3h e2" right?
  54. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Presumably?
  55. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Which is weird, of coruse.
  56. # [01:43] <TabAtkins> Or, wait, is that logical or visual string order that you specified?
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  60. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> If the logical text was "e1 H1 H2 H3 e2", presumably it would be displayed as "e1 H3 \n H2 \n H1 e2".
  61. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Since linebreaking should be more-or-less a visual effect where you just break lineboxes, and if the text fit on one line it would display as "e1 H3 H2 H1 e2".
  62. # [01:49] <Hixie> that would be crazy, surely
  63. # [01:49] <Hixie> you never read up
  64. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Which part is crazy? The one-line layout, or how it's broken into lineboxes?
  65. # [01:49] <Hixie> the part where you have to start reading by skipping a line and then reading up
  66. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Man, I dunno. You shouldn't mix text directions in a single inline layout anyway.
  67. # [01:50] <Hixie> you don't have much choice when writing hebrew
  68. # [01:50] <Hixie> e.g. THE POPE SAID "whatever the pope said" WHICH IS SILLY
  69. # [01:50] <Hixie> if the quote is long, it'll split across many lines
  70. # [01:50] <Hixie> but you want the start of the quote to be on the first line
  71. # [01:51] <TabAtkins> Solution: stop being rtl, or switch everyone to rtl.
  72. # [01:51] <Hixie> good luck with that
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  77. # [02:01] <Hixie> i'm clearly wrong somehow
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  79. # [02:02] <zcorpan> hmm. http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=6007&to=6008 - i think several of those are not good indicators
  80. # [02:02] <zcorpan> lots of layout tables with <th> for instance
  81. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> ...why???
  82. # [02:03] <zcorpan> this is the web?
  83. # [02:03] <tw2113> sparta?
  84. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> I hate people.
  85. # [02:03] <zcorpan> also lots of non-layout tables with cellspacing/cellpadding
  86. # [02:03] <Hixie> zcorpan: file a bug, i'll happily update this accordingly
  87. # [02:04] <Hixie> zcorpan: if we have data in particular that would be fantastic
  88. # [02:04] <zcorpan> it's an area i'd like to research more
  89. # [02:07] <Hixie> cool
  90. # [02:07] <Hixie> in other news: i hate bidi
  91. # [02:07] <zcorpan> still?
  92. # [02:07] <TabAtkins> yeah, I thought you were done with that.
  93. # [02:08] <Hixie> wtf is the difference between "xxx &#x202E; ab cd ef &#x202C; yyy" and "xxx HE BR EW yyy"?
  94. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> There... shouldn't be one?
  95. # [02:08] <zcorpan> filed a bug
  96. # [02:08] <zcorpan> nn
  97. # [02:09] <Hixie> nn
  98. # [02:10] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/937
  99. # [02:10] <Hixie> oh man
  100. # [02:10] <Hixie> i forgot textarea is visual
  101. # [02:10] <Hixie> gah
  102. # [02:10] <Hixie> seriously. hate. bidi.
  103. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> Awesome.
  104. # [02:11] <TabAtkins> Man, I can't even tell which of the three represents the logical ordering.
  105. # [02:11] <Hixie> my brain hurts.
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  116. # [02:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: mail sent to public-css-testsuite
  117. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> kk
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  124. # [02:39] <Hixie> christ, faulkner really can't stop himself from filing issues
  125. # [02:39] <Hixie> it's like he has issue turrets
  126. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> tourettes
  127. # [02:40] <Hixie> er, right
  128. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> rather, tourette's
  129. # [02:40] <aho> tourette's
  130. # [02:40] <aho> heh
  131. # [02:40] <aho> :>
  132. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> I like issue turrets, though.
  133. # [02:40] <aho> and torrents
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  139. # [02:48] <aho> mh. looks like mozilla still didn't do an update notification for ff4
  140. # [02:48] <aho> http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_version-DE-daily-20110320-20110418
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  142. # [02:48] <aho> ff4 got already more than ie8 in germany :>
  143. # [02:51] <tw2113> woo
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  145. # [02:51] <tw2113> aho i swear i know you from other freenode rooms
  146. # [02:52] <aho> yes, you do
  147. # [02:52] <tw2113> i just forget which ones
  148. # [02:52] <aho> whois me :P
  149. # [02:52] <tw2113> either LAS or the fedora stuff
  150. # [02:52] <tw2113> [07:48pm] »» [aho] #whatwg
  151. # [02:52] <tw2113> :P
  152. # [02:53] <aho> oh... is that hidden nowadays? :f
  153. # [02:53] <aho> * [aho] #fronteers #impactjs #vp8 #whatwg #commonjs #Node.js #webgl #go-nuts #haxe #fedora-art #inkscape.de #inkscape #lwjgl
  154. # [02:54] <tw2113> aha
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  156. # [02:54] <tw2113> small world
  157. # [02:56] <aho> kinda
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  162. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> Anyone know a good parser generator? Alternately, anyone want to write a parser for me?
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  164. # [03:15] * TabAtkins decides to play with PEG.js
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  171. # [03:26] <doublec> TabAtkins: I wrote https://github.com/doublec/jsparse a while ago and it still gets some usage
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  222. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> can somebody please try http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values and let me know if you get a response?
  223. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> for me, it's hanging
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  225. # [06:05] <tw2113> on it
  226. # [06:05] <tw2113> connecting....
  227. # [06:05] <tw2113> connecting....
  228. # [06:06] <tw2113> hanging.....
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  230. # [06:06] <tw2113> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/microformats.org/
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  238. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> hober: can somebody maybe give microformats.org a kick?
  239. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> it seems to not be responding to any requests at all
  240. # [06:24] * tw2113 kicks microformats.org's tires
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  245. # [06:38] <heycam> do iframes delay the referencing document's load event?
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  248. # [06:39] <roc> yes
  249. # [06:40] <heycam> thanks
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  257. # [07:04] <kennyluck> That fantasai is the Webmaster of W3C remains on this page :p http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-content/Overview.html?rev=1.3;content-type=text%2Fhtml
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  295. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> wow
  296. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.browsium.com/faqs/
  297. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> "UniBrows is an innovative new product that removes a key impediment to enterprise upgrades by enabling millions of IE6-based line-of-business web applications to run unmodified on Windows 7 or on IE8 on Windows XP (a version designed to work with IE9 is under development). "
  298. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> (by way of hsivonen twitter feed)
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  306. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/2011/04/20/a-peculiar-cross-browser-onresize-quirk
  307. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> "a cross-browser compatible quirk"
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  316. # [09:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: is it intentional that Ragnarök doesn't reset the form pointer when the parent chain of the <input> changes in http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/939 ?
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  325. # [10:05] <jgraham> hsivonen: Not sure. It could just be a bug. But it is not 100% clear to me without reading the spec closely why 1 is wrong.
  326. # [10:08] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@82-170-160-25.ip.telfort.nl)
  327. # [10:08] <jgraham> Oh, but there is more magic elese where isn't there…
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  329. # [10:11] <jgraham> So I guess we don't run the algorithm to reset the form owner of an element when we run the AAA
  330. # [10:12] <jgraham> And it is not really clear to me if we should per spec given the note "The HTML parser overrides this requirement when inserting form controls."
  331. # [10:13] <jgraham> But if it is needed for web-compat I guess we have to
  332. # [10:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: there is evidence suggesting that what Ragnarök does may be more Web-compatible than what Firefox and Chrome do
  333. # [10:14] <jgraham> Unexpected win!
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  338. # [10:16] <jgraham> For my next trick I will try to work out what the spec has to say about http://testsuites.opera.com/script-execution/040.html
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  340. # [10:17] <jgraham> (chrome, gecko and opera all have different behaviour)
  341. # [10:18] <jgraham> But IE9 matches Gecko
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  345. # [10:34] <jgraham> So, I think the spec makes this case explicitly racy
  346. # [10:34] <jgraham> hsivonen: Do you have any opinions here?
  347. # [10:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: both Gecko's behavior and the behavior marked as expected on the test case could be explained to make sense.
  348. # [10:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: changing this is Gecko would be annoying and I wouldn't want to be the person changing things
  349. # [10:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: bz might have opinions
  350. # [10:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, if Gecko matches IE, it's a good reason not to change Gecko
  351. # [10:36] <jgraham> hsivonen: The other behaviour I think makes sense (moreso than the expected one) is internal script #1, end script #1, JS URL, frame script, inline script #2
  352. # [10:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: we're not gonna do that
  353. # [10:37] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why?
  354. # [10:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: since that behavior would require synchronous parsing of the document it the iframe
  355. # [10:38] <jgraham> Rwally?
  356. # [10:38] <jgraham> *Really
  357. # [10:38] * hsivonen opens the test case again
  358. # [10:39] <jgraham> Isn't it just the Gecko behaviour with the javascript: URI dereferenced before the second script is run rather than after>
  359. # [10:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: correction: it would require blocking scripts on the parent until scripts in the child frame have executed
  360. # [10:39] <hsivonen> hmm.
  361. # [10:40] <hsivonen> which I admit is kinda similar to blocking scripts on style sheet loads on another documnet
  362. # [10:40] <jgraham> Getting it consistently like that might make it blocking
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  364. # [10:41] <jgraham> I guess I should test what happens if you have a slow non-javascript-uri resource in the iframe
  365. # [10:41] <hsivonen> blocking scripts on the parent until the child has run all its scripts would effectively mean blocking scripts on the parent until the whole iframed doc has loaded
  366. # [10:41] <hsivonen> which would be perf poison
  367. # [10:41] <jgraham> yes
  368. # [10:42] <jgraham> I assumed this case was inherently racy with javascript: URIs racing rather fast
  369. # [10:42] <hsivonen> yeah, seems so
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  381. # [11:23] <jgraham> hsivonen: Does Gecko always wait to execute scripts in subframes until all the scripts on the main page have run?
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  383. # [11:25] * jgraham is sure he is doing something wrong
  384. # [11:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: I would imagine not, but I haven't tested
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  425. # [14:51] <hsivonen> has anyone done the research on whether non-initial navigations to about:blank need to be synchronous?
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  466. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> yee-hah http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values is back
  467. # [16:32] * MikeSmith now starts to think about how to parse the needed info out of that page
  468. # [16:32] * hsivonen battles with about:blank
  469. # [16:33] * jgraham feels more sorry for hsivonen than MikeSmith, on the whole
  470. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> heh
  471. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> me too
  472. # [16:33] <MikeSmith> :)
  473. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> anyway, the taxonomy of maturity states on that wiki page is quite a bit more complicated than what the spec has
  474. # [16:34] <jgraham> Although unless they added lots of hidden metadata, that page doesn't look optimised for machine readability
  475. # [16:34] <jgraham> Which is ironic
  476. # [16:34] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@195.130.156.13) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  477. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  478. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> is this a mediawiki?
  479. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, it is
  480. # [16:36] <jgraham> Indeed. It is surprisingly non-ugly for a media wiki install
  481. # [16:36] <jgraham> s/ //
  482. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> anyway, the spec implies the only statuses we need concern ourselves with are "proposed" or "ratified" and "discontinued"
  483. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> but here I find "brainstorming", "POSH", more
  484. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> and "dropped" rather than "discontinued"
  485. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> I guess those status levels were for the whatwg rel-values wiki page
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  490. # [16:43] <hsivonen> Whoa! document.title on about:blank is non-blank in Opera!
  491. # [16:48] <zcorpan> about:blank isn't actually blank in opera
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  494. # [16:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: spec violation!
  495. # [16:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: We know :p
  496. # [16:49] <zcorpan> yes
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  498. # [16:50] <jgraham> I think fixing it is non trivial for some reason)
  499. # [16:50] <jgraham> +(
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  501. # [16:50] <hsivonen> hooray. non-Opera browsers don't perform non-initial navigation to about:blank synchronously
  502. # [16:50] <jgraham> (but I don't remember what that reason is so maybe I imagined it)
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  504. # [16:51] <zcorpan> we also use standards mode for about:blank
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  506. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> jgraham: sounds like a dispassionate violation
  507. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> if you're going to do some violation, make it passionate violation
  508. # [16:52] <zcorpan> you're right, we should be more passionate about our spec violations
  509. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> willful, with a flourish
  510. # [16:53] <zcorpan> get ready for some willful and passionate <time> violations
  511. # [16:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: Sshh, the time travel feature was supposed to be secret
  512. # [16:53] <zcorpan> oops
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  516. # [16:55] <hsivonen> I'm failing at basic testing
  517. # [16:55] <hsivonen> iframe.contentWindow.addEventListener("load", iframeLoad, false); should work, right?
  518. # [16:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: If Opera is doing screy things with about:blank navigation, or navigation in general, it would be nice to know what we are doing wrong
  519. # [16:55] <hsivonen> to listen to load events inside the iframe?
  520. # [16:56] <zcorpan> yeah, should work i think
  521. # [16:56] <hsivonen> found the problem
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  524. # [17:01] * jgraham accidentially runs across the brilliant term "Eigenplot" to describe a store in which each of the character's unique traits, however normal, is required to overcome some obstacle that would otherwise be insurmountable
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  528. # [17:14] <jgraham> So, how do people on touch devices browse xkcd?
  529. # [17:16] <Rik`> jgraham: m.xkcd.com
  530. # [17:17] <hsivonen> it's still more useful to have a user stylesheet that render the title attribute right away
  531. # [17:19] <jgraham> Rik`: Oh, interesting. s/xkcd/Girls with Slingshots/ or Abtruse Goose or some other comic that has started doing the same thing
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  533. # [17:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: In this case the reason the title is used is explicitly because the UI makes it hidden until user interaction occurs
  534. # [17:20] <MikeSmith_> it's arguably even more useful to not use the title attribute for that to begin with
  535. # [17:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: I know. I fight the design with my user style sheet.
  536. # [17:21] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Sure, but it is easy so it's not surprising that people do it
  537. # [17:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why? Doesn't that rather weaken the payoff?
  538. # [17:22] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  539. # [17:22] <MikeSmith_> jgraham: yeah, but for a site like this that's used by so many people, you'd think doing something more than the easy thing would be worthwhile
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  542. # [17:23] <jgraham> For xkcd maybe. Most of the people doing this are hardly experts though
  543. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> sure
  544. # [17:23] <jgraham> It seems unreasonable to expect webcomics authors to also master HTML and javascript and whatever
  545. # [17:24] <jgraham> Just to have a different-to-everyone-else-slightly-hidden-but-still-discoverable extra joke in the comics
  546. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> true, but I'm sure in this case he could get lots of help
  547. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> well, it's kind of a key feature of that particular comic
  548. # [17:25] <jgraham> I think Randall would likely be fine. But he's not the only person doing this
  549. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
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  571. # [18:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Happy birthday BTW. Are you celebrating it on by being on IRC whilst playing computer games?
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  589. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> I don't understand what the "IE10" column in http://crockford.com/javascript/performance.html represents
  590. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> oh
  591. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> now I do
  592. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> "relative to IE10"?
  593. # [18:43] <Rik`> that's my understanding too
  594. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> funny that Crockford has such deep insight into what JS engine developers are doing
  595. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> "lacking credible benchmarks, engine developers are tuning to what they have"
  596. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> if he says so, I guess it must be true
  597. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> because he is a true sage
  598. # [18:44] <jgraham> Lacking credible benchmarks, I decided that my program was obviously a credible benchmark
  599. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> heh
  600. # [18:45] <jgraham> Because I entirely missed the point of that Microsoft paper
  601. # [18:45] <Rik`> I'm surprised about the difference between IE9 and IE10
  602. # [18:46] <Rik`> I don't remember any announcement around JS perf in IE10
  603. # [18:46] <Rik`> maybe it's "native ES5" ?
  604. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> JS engine developers are clearly just a bunch of asses who have no clue what they are doing
  605. # [18:46] <jgraham> Since Crockford helpfully made it easy to rerun his test you cantry and reproduce his results
  606. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> they should all just be replaced by instances of Crockford
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  608. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> browser projects should all hire Crockford to come in and educate their dev teams about how to develop JS engines propertly
  609. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> that would be fun
  610. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> I would pay real money personally to attend such sessions
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  614. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> Crockford is like Eric Clapton during the Cream days
  615. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> except he doesn't even need a Jack Bruce and a Ginger Baker
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  617. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> he is a world-class power trio solely on his own
  618. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> like the holy trinity
  619. # [18:49] <miketaylr> he's even on tour
  620. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> sweet
  621. # [18:50] <miketaylr> coming to brooklyn to speak at etsy next week
  622. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> well, count yourself blessed
  623. # [18:50] * Quits: Azure (~az@unaffiliated/azure) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  624. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> it will be the greatest thing that Brooklyn has seen since Walt Whitman
  625. # [18:51] <miketaylr> been a long time coming
  626. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> or at least since RZA
  627. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> Jim Jarmusch should do a "Coffee and Cigarettes" reprise with Crockford and RZA and DZA
  628. # [18:53] <miketaylr> nah, i think wu tang is all from staten island
  629. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> RZA and DZA is from Brooklyn
  630. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> I thikn at least
  631. # [18:54] <miketaylr> ah, wikipedia confirms
  632. # [18:54] * miketaylr stands corrected
  633. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> not to knock the various islands and what not
  634. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> the Ramones were for Queens…
  635. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> *from
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  637. # [18:56] <akahn> RZA is from staten island
  638. # [18:56] <akahn> oh i should read
  639. # [18:56] <akahn> :-$
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  641. # [18:56] <akahn> i don't know who DZA is though ;)
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  657. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> goddammit
  658. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> I really hate browser caching behavior
  659. # [19:22] <karlcow> :)
  660. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> why the fuck browsers can't all make it easy for me to bypass their cache is beyond me
  661. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> jesus
  662. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> the hours of wasted time…
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  664. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> the only thing that I have found that does it right is the Develop > Disable Caches option in Webkit/Safari
  665. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> everything else is fuckt
  666. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> sorry to have to say
  667. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> but it's the truth
  668. # [19:26] <wilhelm> Oh, that's a nice feature.
  669. # [19:27] <miketaylr> Preferences > Advanced > History and disabling disk & memory cache is a bit less friendly
  670. # [19:27] <Rik`> MikeSmith: I've heard that the Disable Caches option in Safari is not that reliable
  671. # [19:27] <miketaylr> (in opera)
  672. # [19:27] <Rik`> (but I have no source that I remember to support that)
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  675. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> Rik`: you have heard wrong
  676. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> miketaylr: yeah, just a wee bit
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  680. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> jgraham: On the subject of hidden jokes in comics, were you aware the Dinosaur Comics embeds 3 separate jokes?
  681. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> (I have a Chrome extension solely concerned with showing all three of them automatically.
  682. # [19:35] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I have to say I don't read Dinosaur Comics regularly
  683. # [19:35] <jgraham> so no
  684. # [19:35] <jgraham> This could be a failing on my part
  685. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> It is.
  686. # [19:36] * karlcow doesn't even know what Dinosaur Comics
  687. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> I have a Chrome extension that tells me when the latest/next earthquake has happened
  688. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> qwantz.com
  689. # [19:36] <karlcow> MikeSmith already made my day today.
  690. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> yay for that
  691. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> though I have no idea what I did
  692. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> if I got something productive done today, it's a surprise to me
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  694. # [19:38] <karlcow> handwritten manuscript
  695. # [19:39] <karlcow> Walt Whitman
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  697. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> ah
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  759. # [21:22] <gavin> is window.getSelection specced somewhere?
  760. # [21:23] <gavin> oh, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10798
  761. # [21:23] * gavin reads http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html
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  831. # Session Close: Thu Apr 21 00:00:03 2011

The end :)