/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 21 00:00:03 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:11] <yuhong_> Here is a big site using real XHTML, BTW: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/
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  8. # [00:12] <gsnedders> http://www.tesco.com/ *used* to.
  9. # [00:12] <gsnedders> (It was fairly trivial to get it to output something non well-formed, though)
  10. # [00:15] <Philip`> http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?q=potato%ef%bf%bf - that does look like XML
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  15. # [00:22] <yuhong_> Old twitter used to generate well-formed XHTML, but then they added <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" without the slash.
  16. # [00:22] <yuhong_> I reported this to @twitter/team and they fixed it.
  17. # [00:25] <espadrine> Philip`: syntax error. ugly.
  18. # [00:26] <yuhong_> Here is an embarrassing one, BTW:
  19. # [00:26] <yuhong_> http://twitter.com/#!/yuhong2/status/60591084190969856
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  27. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Yay for parser generators! In not too much time (most was just learning my way around), I built a parser for the stylesheet in Lists, so I can systematically rewrite it.
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  34. # [00:50] <yuhong_> Sorry, this was a mistake, they are using HTML5 now.
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  37. # [00:56] <yuhong_> Twitter's XHTML is broken again: They put "<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge">" without the slash.
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  39. # [00:58] <yuhong_> I mentioned this about how use of XHTML in gitweb prevented XSS:
  40. # [00:58] <yuhong_> http://www.no-ack.org/2010/12/cross-side-scripting-vulnerability-in.html
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  48. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Uh, no, that's not true at all, yuhong. By accident, this particular XSS hole is slightly harder to exploit, because the page spams the filename into the code twice. If anything, you should be saying that poor accessibility prevented an XSS, because they're using the filename as the @alt and @title value of an image.
  49. # [01:06] <aho> he left the building
  50. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Ah well. I never understand what he's trying to say anyway. He comes in, spams some link that's vaguely about xhtml, then doesn't say anything else.
  51. # [01:07] <aho> using the file name for title and alt is kinda... uhm... pointless :>
  52. # [01:07] <aho> heh
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  59. # [01:16] <yuhong_> http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2011/03/30/improving-interoperability-the-story-of-a-bug
  60. # [01:16] <yuhong_> Fortunately Opera lets you reparse the broken page as HTML>
  61. # [01:16] <yuhong_> Fortunately Opera lets you reparse the broken page as HTML.
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  71. # [01:46] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: yt?
  72. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> chriseppstein: Yo.
  73. # [01:47] <chriseppstein> hi
  74. # [01:47] <chriseppstein> am I crazy or did radial gradients used to accept an angle
  75. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> They did. I removed it because it was kinda useless.
  76. # [01:47] <chriseppstein> whew
  77. # [01:47] <chriseppstein> ok
  78. # [01:48] <chriseppstein> i'll take that out of my code then
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  113. # [03:15] <TabAtkins> Yay, I built a parser for the UA stylesheet in the Lists module (so I could do a transformation to all the rules). Not only did it work, but it uncovered a bunch of CSS errors in the stylesheet.
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  142. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> hmm
  143. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-00
  144. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> "A JSON Media Type for Describing Partial Modifications to JSON Documents"
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  147. # [04:47] <heycam> MikeSmith, reminds me of REX
  148. # [04:47] <heycam> (for XML)
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  150. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> heycam: ah yes, REX
  151. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> I hope this works out better
  152. # [04:51] <heycam> yeah..
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  155. # [05:00] <MikeSmith_> Gecko already enables filter effects in HTML, right?
  156. # [05:00] <MikeSmith_> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/filters/publish/Filters.html stuff I mean
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  161. # [05:05] <heycam> MikeSmith, I believe so
  162. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> cool
  163. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> heycam: btw, did plh bug you recently about WebIDL
  164. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> with regard to the Selectors API draft?
  165. # [05:07] <heycam> MikeSmith, yeah he did
  166. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> ok
  167. # [05:08] <heycam> Selectors API doesn't make terribly heavy use of Web IDL, so if the timing is such that the normative dependency has to be removed, and we need to include just a line or two about the relevant requirements (like null converting to string or whatever), then that's fine, we can add the dependency back in later
  168. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> oh
  169. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> that sounds reasonable
  170. # [05:10] <MikeSmith> actually what would be more reasonable going forward is that we allow recs to have normative dependencies on non-rec drafts, and we update them later if we need to (if the dependency changes in some way that requires it)
  171. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> the W3C process doc does not explicitly prohibit that, as far as I can tell
  172. # [05:11] <heycam> yeah. many of the requirements from web idl aren't important in the context of selectors api in particular.
  173. # [05:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  174. # [05:11] <heycam> and browsers are likely going to implement the web idl requirements all at once in their binding generation code, not per spec
  175. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> ok
  176. # [05:12] <heycam> so gating selectors api on the exact requirements for, say, prototype chains in web idl doesn't make much sense to me
  177. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> yep
  178. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> we really should just evaluate spec-dependency issues case-by-case
  179. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> there are cases where we really know it matters
  180. # [05:14] <MikeSmith> like the WebSocket protocol
  181. # [05:15] <MikeSmith> but there are a whole lot more where it's not really an issue
  182. # [05:15] <heycam> yeah
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  190. # [05:53] <jacobolus> Hixie: I didn't show you this thing yet did I? http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/colortheory/javascript/colorpicker.html
  191. # [05:54] <jacobolus> [back on the subject of color spaces from a bit ago]
  192. # [05:54] <jacobolus> [also note, this is an in-progress thing, not expected to look much like this in its final form; still a lot of parts to build]
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  199. # [06:04] <yuhong_> "he left the building" Note that I read the whatwg IRC logs a lot.
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  201. # [06:05] <yuhong_> And yea, without any XSS filter in most cases you are going to be exploited whether you use XHTML or not.
  202. # [06:05] <yuhong_> But most XSS filters are not free of bugs.
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  205. # [06:08] <yuhong_> And evasion tactics.
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  224. # [07:30] <jacobolus> oh whoops, network died just as I was sending before; not sure what went through
  225. # [07:30] <jacobolus> Hixie: I didn't show you this thing yet did I? http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~jrus/colortheory/javascript/colorpicker.html
  226. # [07:30] <jacobolus> [back on the subject of color spaces from a bit ago]
  227. # [07:30] <jacobolus> [also note, this is an in-progress thing, not expected to look much like this in its final form; still a lot of parts to build]
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  232. # [07:37] <Hixie> jacobolus: funky
  233. # [07:37] <Hixie> jacobolus: i ended up doing a heuristic that works ok, fwiw
  234. # [07:38] <Hixie> jacobolus: i'll probably blog it at some point
  235. # [07:38] <Hixie> in other news, how the heck do you get a mobile web browser to actually follow the specs and not lie about its window width, etc?
  236. # [07:38] <jacobolus> [this thing will be less funky (or maybe just as funky but more useful) in the near future hopefully
  237. # [07:38] <jacobolus> ]
  238. # [07:38] <jacobolus> mobile browsers lie about their width?
  239. # [07:38] <jacobolus> why?
  240. # [07:39] <Hixie> so that normal css works ok
  241. # [07:39] <jacobolus> can you make that part of the next ACID test? :)
  242. # [07:39] <Hixie> but when you're trying to target them it is really annoying
  243. # [07:39] <Hixie> ok looks like android's browser just ignores @media handheld altogether
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  248. # [07:54] <Hixie> christ this browser is buggy
  249. # [07:58] <Hixie> ah screw it
  250. # [07:58] * Hixie sticks in a name=viewport meta thingy as a workaround
  251. # [07:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: the Android default browser is the new IE6
  252. # [07:59] <Hixie> are there browsers that _don't_ screw this up?
  253. # [08:00] <hsivonen> You need <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1"> to signal that you really mean what you say
  254. # [08:00] <Hixie> well you only need width=device-width, but yes
  255. # [08:01] <Hixie> but are there browsers that don't need this?
  256. # [08:01] <hsivonen> Opera 8 maybe?
  257. # [08:01] <hsivonen> dunno
  258. # [08:01] <Hixie> your analogy with IE6 implied the other browsers were doing ok
  259. # [08:01] <Hixie> but to my knowledge they all suck
  260. # [08:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm rather convinced that the Android browser sucks more on teh whole
  261. # [08:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, I believe that the browsers are doing here what's the most Web-compatible thing to do
  262. # [08:02] <hsivonen> being Web-compatible isn't sucking
  263. # [08:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: Support Existing Content!
  264. # [08:03] <Hixie> i don't mind supporting existing content, but when i have media queries and so forth, or when i have an explicit media=handheld, just follow the damn specs
  265. # [08:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: media=handheld is for crappy browsers that predate even Opera 8
  266. # [08:03] <Hixie> or at least fix the specs to describe what you do
  267. # [08:04] <Hixie> not according to the specs
  268. # [08:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: IMO the CSS WG should get rid of media=handled, because it has been poisoned
  269. # [08:04] <Hixie> if they did, i would not be complaining about browsers ignoring it
  270. # [08:05] <Hixie> my point is just that the specs and the browsers should match
  271. # [08:05] <Hixie> so that i can have a hope in hell of getting the result i want
  272. # [08:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: maybe you should write an email to www-style
  273. # [08:05] <Hixie> i'll let TabAtkins take care of it
  274. # [08:05] <Hixie> :-)
  275. # [08:06] <Hixie> man, position:fixed and background-position:fixed are a mess too
  276. # [08:07] <Hixie> aren't these things running like GHz processors?
  277. # [08:07] <Hixie> i had 486s that could do scrolling of multiple independent layers
  278. # [08:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: they had more suitable UI for selecting which layer to scroll
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  280. # [08:13] <Hixie> how do you mean?
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  283. # [08:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: you 486 had scrollbars and a pointing device precise enough to hit a scroll bar
  284. # [08:21] <Hixie> so?
  285. # [08:21] <Hixie> my phone has a whole screen i can scroll with my finger
  286. # [08:21] <Hixie> where's the problem here
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  340. # [10:30] <beowulf> on android, adding the device-width viewport thingy works most of the time to get a correct innerWidth, but sometimes you also need to move the viewport as well
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  355. # [11:01] <jgraham> Hah jslint uses spans inside table cells as checkboxes
  356. # [11:01] <jgraham> That is so full of fail
  357. # [11:01] <jgraham> I mean they even look ugly compared to normal checkboxes
  358. # [11:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: how dare you question the Good Parts
  359. # [11:03] <jgraham> Apparently HTML: The Good Parts wouldn't include
  360. # [11:03] <jgraham> media independence
  361. # [11:05] <Rik`> jslint is already dead btw
  362. # [11:06] <jgraham> In what sense?
  363. # [11:06] <Rik`> http://jshint.com/
  364. # [11:06] <Rik`> more flexible for your own needs instead of doing what crockford believes right
  365. # [11:07] <hsivonen> Rik`: is it an independent codebase or a fork of jslint?
  366. # [11:07] <Rik`> a fork
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  368. # [11:07] <Rik`> see at the bottom
  369. # [11:08] <Rik`> http://anton.kovalyov.net/2011/02/20/why-i-forked-jslint-to-jshint/
  370. # [11:08] <hsivonen> Rik`: ok
  371. # [11:08] <jgraham> I thoght jslint was All Rights Reserved
  372. # [11:09] <jgraham> Oh no it's just the webpage that says that
  373. # [11:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: I thought it had Crockford's special "Good not Evil" license
  374. # [11:10] <jgraham> Yeah, it has the scary license
  375. # [11:10] <hsivonen> let's see if he decides jshint is "evil"
  376. # [11:10] <hsivonen> Rik`: “move ‘var’ declarations to the top of the function” Wow.
  377. # [11:11] <jgraham> Anyway jshint is obviously a failure because it can't lead a double life as the One True Javascript Benchmark
  378. # [11:12] <Rik`> wow, Apple geolocation file makes the top headline on http://www.lemonde.fr/
  379. # [11:15] <hsivonen> In the French context, I'd be more worried about the state's hostility towards technical designs that make surveillance harder.
  380. # [11:16] <hsivonen> exhibit A: GSM. exhibit B: the bill about that effectively requires unhashed passwords
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  382. # [11:17] <Rik`> yeah the amount security and surveillance laws in the last 9 years is really scary
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  384. # [11:23] <othermaciej> wow, Crockford is mean to his users
  385. # [11:23] <othermaciej> (from reading stuff linked from that post)
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  405. # [12:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: the output from hg push to the W3C test repo just managed to scare me quite a bit
  406. # [12:39] <hsivonen> what's the deal with getting lines like
  407. # [12:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: In what way?
  408. # [12:39] <hsivonen> remote: html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/tools/canvas/gentest.py
  409. # [12:39] <hsivonen> remote: html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/tools/canvas/spec.yaml
  410. # [12:39] <hsivonen> when pushing something unrelated
  411. # [12:39] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not sure
  412. # [12:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: it made it look like I had overwritten everything by accident
  413. # [12:39] <jgraham> I saw that yesterday but couldn't see that I had done anything bad
  414. # [12:40] <jgraham> It didn't happen a few weeks back
  415. # [12:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks for the insertAdjacentHTML test conversion
  416. # [12:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: I tweaked it a little bit, created an XHTML variant and pushed
  417. # [12:40] <jgraham> Maybe it is from one of the commit hooks
  418. # [12:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: np
  419. # [12:40] <jgraham> Thanks for pushing
  420. # [12:40] <hsivonen> so now I'm supposed to send email to the list, I gather
  421. # [12:41] <jgraham> Yeah, something like that
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  426. # [12:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: do I need to request review from a particular person, or will stuff just happen now that I've thrown the tests over the wall?
  427. # [12:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: In theory magic will now happen
  428. # [12:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: cool
  429. # [12:50] <jgraham> In practice the review system is somewhat dysfunctional
  430. # [12:50] <hsivonen> :-(
  431. # [12:50] <jgraham> Sad face indeed
  432. # [12:52] <jgraham> Basically the problem is that not many people are paying attention, doing review is not very interesting, and no one gets paid to do it
  433. # [12:53] <hsivonen> I had thought Microsoft was paying krisk to do it
  434. # [12:53] <jgraham> I don't really know how to solve any of that, but I would like it if we could solve the technical problems like "doing review by email sucks"
  435. # [12:53] <hsivonen> what's the MANIFEST about under Ms2ger's dir?
  436. # [12:53] <hsivonen> do I need a MANIFEST?
  437. # [12:54] <jgraham> I don't know exactly what proportion of his time krisk gets to spend on HTMLWG testsuite stuff or what he does in that time
  438. # [12:54] <jgraham> He does, admittedly, do some review and spends some time doing the busywork that the whole approved/submitted system needs
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  440. # [12:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: No. It is needed by the harness to pick up tests
  441. # [12:56] <jgraham> But I think someone else will create it once the tests get approved
  442. # [12:56] <jgraham> (we should probably change the system so that you *do* have to submit a manifest file. But that isn't the current system)
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  444. # [13:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: I can't review since I touched the tests, but I expect it will be suggested that you remove the bugzilla references
  445. # [13:01] <jgraham> I could be wrong though
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  460. # [13:48] <hsivonen> is http://crockford.com/javascript/performance.html an accidental or intentional troll?
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  463. # [13:53] <jgraham> The cynical view is that it is an attempt to advertise JSLint by getting it included in benchmarks
  464. # [13:55] <espadrine> Well, everybody knows that javascript is mainly used for javascript parsing, so those benchmarks are important.
  465. # [13:55] <espadrine> Plus, they explain very specifically how they are managed, with a clear understanding of statistics.
  466. # [13:58] * espadrine wonders how we can get clear IE javascript measuring without a standalone executable.
  467. # [13:58] <Philip`> JS is probably used for parsing more than it's used for e.g. raytracing
  468. # [13:59] <Philip`> so parsing seems as useful a thing to include in benchmark suites as what they already include
  469. # [14:00] <Philip`> (Extrapolating a single figure to proclaim overall "JavaScript performance" is not useful, though)
  470. # [14:01] <Philip`> (and failing to provide an easy way to reproduce the figures makes it impossible to trust at all)
  471. # [14:01] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@u-211130160224.hotspot.ne.jp)
  472. # [14:03] <espadrine> I checked, the explanation of how he got the numbers is not hidden in the page's source code.
  473. # [14:05] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  474. # [14:05] <Philip`> There's no doctype in the page's source code either, which doesn't inspire great trust
  475. # [14:06] <Philip`> (Does IE still use its old zillion-times-slower JS engine in quirks mode?)
  476. # [14:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: (No. Chakra's behaviour vary's upon mode)
  477. # [14:07] <gsnedders> *varies
  478. # [14:07] <zcorpan> oh, they backported JScript quirks?
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  481. # [14:09] <jgraham> Philip`: To be fair a raytracer is probably closer to the applications for which javascript performance is the main bottleneck
  482. # [14:09] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Seemingly so
  483. # [14:09] <jgraham> Which are often games and so on
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  486. # [14:12] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm not particularly familiar with the details, but I don't think they're really that close - raytracing is mostly about searching spatial data structures, whereas normal games are more about iterating over arrays of data, or something like that
  487. # [14:13] <jgraham> Oh. Well I was thinking of arithmetic operation performance
  488. # [14:13] <jgraham> But maybe that isn't the real bottleneck
  489. # [14:13] * jgraham thinks that http://benfirshman.com/projects/jsnes/ is a more fun benchmark
  490. # [14:14] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's not the arithmetic that's the bottleneck, it's what you have around the arithmetic (type checks, etc.) where perf is won/lost, which depends upon data structures you're doing it on far more.
  491. # [14:14] <Philip`> Multiplying numbers is usually trivial compared to reading them from memory, even when you're writing in C and reading them from memory doesn't involve potential dynamic property lookups
  492. # [14:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well clearly the datastructure matters. I would nevertheless be surprised if optimising a raytracer didn't help more with a typical game than optimising a javascript parser
  493. # [14:19] <Philip`> I'd expect the same, since presumably the parser is all string operations and games rarely use strings
  494. # [14:19] <gsnedders> Also, it's jslint running on jslint. Because testing yourself is what all code does!
  495. # [14:20] <Philip`> but I'd expect it to help much less than directly optimising the game, since the bottlenecks are likely in very different places
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  497. # [14:20] <jgraham> Fair enough
  498. # [14:20] <Philip`> Not that my expectations actually mean anything, of course
  499. # [14:22] * Philip` has only cared about performance in about one JS thing he wrote, and that seemed to be entirely limited by canvas image-drawing performance which he could do nothing about
  500. # [14:22] <gsnedders> Philip`: That's very much been what I've seen, FWIW
  501. # [14:23] <Philip`> I expect WebGL would typically change things around - GPUs are stupidly fast, so the problem is getting data from JS to the GPU
  502. # [14:24] <gsnedders> (Not that there haven't been things where JS engines could optimize better and make such modifications unneeded)
  503. # [14:24] <gsnedders> (e.g., gaussian-blur in Kraken)
  504. # [14:26] <jgraham> I think that's very unfair. There are plenty of games that awful on older javascript engines but quite playable on new ones. I am at least reasonably sure that it is not all down to canvas optimisations
  505. # [14:27] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  506. # [14:27] <jgraham> Unless it happened that all the browsers with highly optimised javascript implementations also had highly optimised canvas
  507. # [14:27] <jgraham> Which would make it hard to tell
  508. # [14:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, there's the fact that ImageData nowadays is mostly implemented at a JS-engine level.
  509. # [14:29] <Philip`> jgraham: Yeah, my one was not representative of all games, since it pretty only did graphics and trivial collision-detection and didn't have any actual gameplay
  510. # [14:29] <jgraham> Yes. But that is not the only thing
  511. # [14:29] <Philip`> s/pretty/pretty much/
  512. # [14:31] <jgraham> (alternative evidence for extreme case: try disabling JIT for some games and see what happens)
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  514. # [14:33] <gsnedders> (JS is fun, though, because scripts tend to have such short execution times you can scarcely afford to do much optimization)
  515. # [14:36] * Philip` remembers that he has another game with lots of JS code that is sometimes quite slow, so he should probably try porting it to run in a browser
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  519. # [14:43] * Philip` wonders if there's some trick to disabling JIT in Opera, like whether you have to reload the page or open a new tab or restart the browser
  520. # [14:46] <gsnedders> Philip`: It should pretty much insantly stop running JIT'd code
  521. # [14:49] <Philip`> I tried running some random tests like http://jsperf.com/caching-array-length/7 and don't see any significant differences when toggling the EcmaScriptJIT setting :-(
  522. # [14:49] <Philip`> (with 11.10 on 64-bit Linux)
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  524. # [14:50] * Philip` wonders if Opera doesn't bother JITting on 64-bit yet
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  527. # [14:50] <Philip`> (Hmm, sounds like it ought to work)
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  529. # [14:51] <Philip`> Also it could be that jsperf.com is useless
  530. # [14:51] * Philip` knows nothing about this
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  532. # [14:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hmm, seems like reloading is needed
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  534. # [14:52] * gsnedders thought it affected stuff insantly, not just when creating a new document
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  536. # [14:53] <gsnedders> (shows how much I time I spend debugging stuff like that :P)
  537. # [14:53] <Philip`> Oh, I think I'm being stupid (unsurprisingly)
  538. # [14:53] <Philip`> I didn't realise there was a "save" button on opera:config and assumed it applied immediately
  539. # [14:54] <gsnedders> Philip`: You still need to reload the page
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  541. # [14:55] <Philip`> Yeah
  542. # [14:55] <Philip`> Seems to be the case
  543. # [14:55] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml with JIT probably enabled: up to about 96fps; with JIT probably disabled: up to about 92fps
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  547. # [14:57] * Philip` wouldn't be surprised if the bottleneck now was the setInterval
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  549. # [14:57] <jgraham> http://benfirshman.com/projects/jsnes/ 59ish FPS with JIT 10ish without
  550. # [15:00] * Philip` expects emulators are entirely different to any non-emulated games, though it's nice for emulators to be fast for their own sake
  551. # [15:00] <Philip`> Finding representative applications is hard :-(
  552. # [15:01] * jacopo is now known as InfiniteJest
  553. # [15:02] <jgraham> That is true
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  623. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=651888
  624. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> Rik`: ↑
  625. # [18:47] <Rik`> MikeSmith: maybe submit this idea to the devtools team
  626. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> ok
  627. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> how do I do that?
  628. # [18:48] <Rik`> well, I don't know the component :)
  629. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> Oh man, WebP finally has alpha, largely because Firefox complained that they wouldn't implement it without that. ^_^
  630. # [18:48] <Rik`> product: Firefox component: developer tools
  631. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> Rik`: OK, I will also post it on #devtools
  632. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> or Moz irc
  633. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> Rik`: hmm, bugzilla UI does not seem to be offering me a "developer tools" component
  634. # [18:51] <Rik`> MikeSmith: Change product to Firefox and then submit the bug
  635. # [18:51] <Rik`> you'll see the Firefox components later
  636. # [18:51] <Rik`> (which is ugly)
  637. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> thanks
  638. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> done
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  642. # [19:03] <Rik`> MikeSmith: again, bz answers in less than 30 minutes :)
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  646. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> Rik`: heh :)
  647. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> I guess I knew about that shortcut
  648. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> but I thought I'd found that it doesn't always seem to work as expected
  649. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> but I could be wrong
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  659. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> um
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  661. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> can somebody please tell me how do I submit a Chrome enhancement request?
  662. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> because I seem to not be able to figure it out on my own
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  665. # [19:28] <espadrine> Isn't this the same way as creating a bug request?
  666. # [19:28] <espadrine> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list or something?
  667. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> the Template select control at http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/entry does not provide anything appropriate for enhancements
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  672. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> MikeSmith, I'm pretty sure "Defect report from user" is correct for enhancement requests.
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  677. # [19:43] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You wanted assert_not_equals, right?
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  679. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yeah.
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  681. # [19:46] <jgraham> I added it
  682. # [19:46] <jgraham> (I meant to write that the first time rather than leave a dangling question)
  683. # [19:46] <jgraham> (but forgot)
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  685. # [19:50] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  686. # [19:57] <AryehGregor> jgraham, thanks.
  687. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> This is so typical of IEBlog: IE9 is clearly better at resisting web page hangs than two of the three competing browsers, and they could have written a totally fair post that made IE look great, but they had to write one that was half FUD instead.
  688. # [20:00] <AryehGregor> (this is actually one of my major gripes with Firefox, although I'm kind of atypical in the number of sites I visit with long-running scripts . . .)
  689. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> (by which I mean that most of the time I use Firefox I'm visiting a page with long-running script)
  690. # [20:01] <jgraham> Hmm, what does IE do?
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  692. # [20:01] <AryehGregor> IE is tab-per-process, so in IE9 it has no problem tolerating any kind of per-tab hang.
  693. # [20:02] <jgraham> Oh, you mean like that
  694. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> So tabs can't hang the main UI, no matter what they do (in theory).
  695. # [20:02] <jgraham> OK
  696. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> As opposed to Firefox, which completely freezes while script is running in any tab.
  697. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Apparently Opera doesn't freeze on long-running script, but they say it can freeze on other types of tab hangs. Not sure what that actually means.
  698. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> If anything.
  699. # [20:03] <jgraham> Well it means that we don't freeze on long running scripts
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  701. # [20:03] <jgraham> But if you manage to, say, hang the parser it can freeze
  702. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> But that would only be due to a weird bug of some kind, right?
  703. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Not something that's likely to be deliberately trigger-able.
  704. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> As opposed to while (true);.
  705. # [20:04] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  706. # [20:05] <jgraham> Well it is possible to make badness happen in the HTML5 algorithm I think
  707. # [20:05] <jgraham> Even with the limits
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  710. # [20:15] <espadrine> As a matter of fact, Opera does hang quite a lot with huge pages with lots of nodes...
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  712. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: ok (about enhancement filing)
  713. # [20:26] <othermaciej> I'm guessing you can hang the engine in any browser if you force style resolution of many complex selectors in a giant document
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  738. # [21:43] <AryehGregor> Can anyone explain to me why this is valid? http://validator.nu/?doc=data%3Atext%2Fhtml%2C%3C%21doctype+html%3E%3Ctitle%3E%3C%2Ftitle%3E%3Cimg+src%3Dx%3E&showsource=yes
  739. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> The img has no alt, and I can't see any applicable exception.
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  741. # [21:46] <Hixie> looks like a bug
  742. # [21:47] <jgraham> I am suspicious that hsivonen has wanted to avoid messing about with the <img alt> stuff since it is clearly a huge rathole
  743. # [21:48] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I think the validator implements the older rule of never reporting missing alt as an error
  744. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  745. # [21:48] <othermaciej> (it has the "image report" feature to give purely advisory guidance)
  746. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> I didn't know there was such a rule.
  747. # [21:48] <othermaciej> I believe that is 2 years obsolete now
  748. # [21:48] <othermaciej> at least
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  766. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> So apparently my cell phone number is now available to all W3C members.
  767. # [22:23] <AryehGregor> Would be nice if the profile editing page made that just a bit clearer.
  768. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> I'm *this* close to being able to read Chinese and Japanese numbers, without consciously trying to learn this.
  769. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> I can already kinda read Tamil, because it was an interesting system that I spent a lot of time on.
  770. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> I can more or less read Japanese numbers.
  771. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Also: it's pretty.
  772. # [22:25] <wilhelm> They mostly use Arabic numerals, though. :P
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  774. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Doesn't everyone?
  775. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> Israelis mostly use Arabic numerals, and they're even backwards.
  776. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> Cultural homogenization ftw
  777. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> Well, to be fair, it's a better system.
  778. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> You know, positional notation.
  779. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> That's why it's a win.
  780. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> Practically every other system can handle only fairly small numbers, totally useless for things like serial numbers.
  781. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  782. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Generally 6 digits or less.
  783. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> There's like one language that MediaWiki supports (and it supports a ridiculous number of languages) that wants a different default <ol> list-style-type, IIRC.
  784. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> Which is?
  785. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Localisation_statistics
  786. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Maybe Persian?
  787. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Sort that table in descending order by percentage translated.
  788. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> 11 languages with >99% translation, 37 with >95%. Wikis are awesome for translation.
  789. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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The end :)