/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 26 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  32. # [00:55] <Hixie> jgraham: pms is dead for w3c site
  33. # [00:55] <Hixie> jgraham: i get an xml error
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  35. # [00:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm blocking w3c publication until pms works again (will try periodically)
  36. # [01:00] <wilhelm> Perhaps it's not that time of the month.
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  38. # [01:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: ok
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  41. # [01:03] <othermaciej> Hixie: btw I recently had occasion to crawl through revision history and there seem to be quite a few revs over time that are Python errors
  42. # [01:03] <Hixie> yeah sometimes i just don't notice and my script checks it in
  43. # [01:03] <Hixie> depends how much attention i'm paying
  44. # [01:04] <Hixie> typically i won't notice for changes that are trivial, because i don't review the changes for those, i just do ./build;./commit
  45. # [01:04] <Hixie> i guess i could have my script check for the signature of a python error and avoid doing the checkin in those cases
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  57. # [01:20] <Hixie> othermaciej: so for bug 11239 you want me to play a game of guesswork where i guess what the wg wants, provide a diff, get shouted at by the a11y guys, then try to guess again, rince repeat?
  58. # [01:21] <Hixie> othermaciej: because that's what i tried with 10066 and that wasn't any fun.
  59. # [01:21] * othermaciej has to look up which bugs those are
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  61. # [01:21] <Hixie> 10066 is the aria one
  62. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> You could try just asking what they want before making the edit. You'll still get yelled at by the a11y guys (same as last time), but at least it's less work for you.
  63. # [01:22] <Hixie> 11239 is the drawFocusRect one
  64. # [01:22] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i tried, and i didn't understand any of the answers
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  67. # [01:22] <TabAtkins> Sigh, yeah.
  68. # [01:23] <othermaciej> if you just post a diff to the bug (11239) and mail the list that you have done so, I will do my best to run interference and keep any shouting in check
  69. # [01:23] <othermaciej> e.g. if people complain about things other than being inconsistent with the decision
  70. # [01:24] <othermaciej> for example if anyone complains about the decision itself
  71. # [01:24] <othermaciej> you can also make up something reasonable, check it in, and just press your luck, but that seems to have slightly higher odds of resulting in flamage
  72. # [01:25] <Hixie> yeah so what i want is for you to tell me what to change
  73. # [01:25] <Hixie> the CP is incoherent, and the decision is a vague change to the CP
  74. # [01:25] <Hixie> there's just no way i want to play this game
  75. # [01:26] <othermaciej> if I were to do that, I would want to make a diff and post it to the WG first to avoid getting flamed myself, and that will probably both be lower quality and take considerably longer
  76. # [01:31] <Hixie> i wouldn't want a diff, just a bullet point list of what needs changing
  77. # [01:31] <Hixie> i honestly have no idea what i'm supposed to change at this point
  78. # [01:31] <Hixie> the CP is incoherent and the decision is vague
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  171. # [05:36] <AlexNRoss> Okay, I would like to confirm something and would like link references for an answer, I can't find a solid answer on this.
  172. # [05:37] <AlexNRoss> Using HTML5 DTD with XHTML mark-up. Should the HTTP and meta content-type be text/html or application/xhtml+xml ?
  173. # [05:37] <AlexNRoss> I've heard conflicting stories.
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  175. # [05:38] <AlexNRoss> Using text/html with XHTML DTD is incorrect, but with HTML5 it is DTD-less.
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  191. # [06:43] <hober> AlexNRoss: there is no HTML5 DTD.
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  228. # [08:29] <hsivonen> Let's see if Gruber mentions http://www.webm-ccl.org/ at all...
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  231. # [08:34] <erlehmann> hsivonen, i wonder what gruber, pritlove et al are going to say if at some time in the future people use webm. it may be fun to watch.
  232. # [08:35] <roc> you mean other than Youtube
  233. # [08:35] <roc> ?
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  235. # [08:43] <erlehmann> roc, like when / if it becomes obvious that apple fails by not supporting it.
  236. # [08:43] <roc> you never get satisfaction from people like Gruber, they'll never admit they were wrong
  237. # [08:44] <roc> you can only ignore them and move on
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  241. # [08:50] <erlehmann> roc, so what do their followers say then?
  242. # [08:59] <hsivonen> erlehmann: Gruber's followers probably don't mind the selectiveness of the stories that appear
  243. # [09:00] <hsivonen> Gruber has very insightful posts when the insightfulness aligns with Apple's strategy
  244. # [09:02] <hsivonen> e.g. http://daringfireball.net/2010/08/getting_there_from_here says it like it is
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  246. # [09:06] <roc> except "Flash is never going to decrease in popularity so long as all web browsers support it. " is not true
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  249. # [09:11] <hsivonen> roc: it seems to me it's quite close to true. The popularity of Flash comes from being easy to author for, so even if users hated it but Adobe didn't feel the need to retarget their tools to browser native features, Flash could stick around thanks to the authoring tools
  250. # [09:12] <roc> maybe
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  252. # [09:12] <roc> but the open Web is starting to pass Flash in capability
  253. # [09:12] <roc> especially with Microsoft coming up to speed
  254. # [09:13] <roc> an unequivocal prediction that "Flash is never going to decrease in popularity so long as all web browsers support it." cannot be justified IMHO
  255. # [09:13] <hsivonen> roc: I also think that Danish banks would continue to require Java for login regardless of browser capabilities forever unless popular computing enviroments that simply don't have Java wake them up
  256. # [09:14] <roc> that may be true, but it's a different prediction
  257. # [09:14] <roc> "Some sites may keep requiring Flash as long as all Web browsers support it" is almost certainly true
  258. # [09:15] <hsivonen> roc: fair enough
  259. # [09:16] <hsivonen> roc: my point about Java is that there will be important sites using plug-ins when there's absolutely no good reason to do so if there is an opportunity to do so
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  261. # [09:16] <hsivonen> roc: so to stop that kind of hostility against users, the opportunity needs to be taken away
  262. # [09:17] <hsivonen> because a single user opting not to install something doesn't have leverage
  263. # [09:17] <hsivonen> so users who don't want bad software need to unionize somehow
  264. # [09:18] <hsivonen> getting an iOS device is like joining an anti-Flash union
  265. # [09:18] <hsivonen> with the collateral damage of also joining an anti-Firefox union and an anti-Opera union
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  268. # [09:21] <roc> hsivonen: do you think we should not be working on Flash support for Firefox-Android?
  269. # [09:21] <hsivonen> roc: probably not
  270. # [09:22] <hsivonen> roc: at least I'm unhappy that while we don't have it, the PR line is "not supported yet" and not just "it's not supported"
  271. # [09:22] <hsivonen> roc: if we go get it, I sure hope it defaults to tap-to-activate
  272. # [09:23] <hsivonen> I wish plug-in support in Firefox in general defaulted to click-to-activate
  273. # [09:23] <hsivonen> in the case of Flash for the resource usage annoyance
  274. # [09:23] <hsivonen> in the case of everything else for the attack surface
  275. # [09:25] <hsivonen> what's more likely these days: that a user wants to use a Java applet or that a user got Java as a side effect of something else and is being subjected to an exploit in an outdated JRE?
  276. # [09:25] <roc> gotta go, but two things that worry me more than Flash right now are the locked iOS ecosystem and Webkit monoculture on mobile
  277. # [09:25] <hsivonen> roc: those are bad things, too
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  281. # [09:33] <jgraham> What is worrying is the number of people who actively promote the idea of a WebKit monoculture
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  285. # [09:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah. and it's sad that some of those people were against a Trident monoculture
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  287. # [09:42] * jgraham idly wonders if anyone has considered a Apache-style license for the spec
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  301. # [10:17] <jgraham> Hixie: Did PMS start magiaclly working BTW? I don't see a problem but I might not be using the right settings
  302. # [10:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: Ragnarök runs the script that does w('FAIL') here: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/950
  303. # [10:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: I believe it shouldn't per spec
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  305. # [10:21] <zcorpan> innerHTML sets the 'already executed' flag?
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  309. # [10:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes
  310. # [10:24] <hsivonen> "If the parser was originally created for the HTML fragment parsing algorithm, then mark the script element as "already started". (fragment case)"
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  312. # [10:26] <jgraham> I have a feeling we have a generic bug about changinf script.src causing scripts to reexecute
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  314. # [10:27] <jgraham> Alhough 11.10 doesn't FAIL so maybe a regression
  315. # [10:27] * jgraham will investigate
  316. # [10:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW your chosen style for escaping </script> is rather hard to read :)
  317. # [10:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  318. # [10:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: the escaping style is the simplest rule that's also safe
  319. # [10:30] <hsivonen> or rather, the simplest rule that's safe and that passes JSLint
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  321. # [10:32] <jgraham> It is harder to read than "<" + "/script>" and much moreso than "<\/script>" although I guess JSLint would complain about the letter
  322. # [10:32] <jgraham> *latter
  323. # [10:32] <zcorpan> i just do <\/script>
  324. # [10:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: how do you escape <!--?
  325. # [10:33] <zcorpan> <\!--
  326. # [10:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok. I'm pretty sure JSLint hates that one
  327. # [10:34] <zcorpan> i don't use jslint :)
  328. # [10:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also, I was unable to work out from the spec if \! is conforming or not
  329. # [10:35] <hsivonen> the ES spec isn't particularly clear on program text conformance
  330. # [10:35] <zcorpan> it parses in all browsers, so if the spec has a problem with it, i'll say it's the spec's problem, not mine :)
  331. # [10:35] <jgraham> Really I am only concerened about JSLint or similar when they point out errors that could easilly tuen into bugs
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  333. # [10:36] <jgraham> Since <\/script> is used in some of the worst javascript on the planet, I surmise that it must be pretty hard to screw it up
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  335. # [10:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: I use \u003C, because I try to practice what I preach and I try to preach things that pass JSLint so that I don't need to deal with fanmail telling me that what I preach doesn't work with what Crockford preaches
  336. # [10:38] <hsivonen> but now I get feedback asking me to use syntaxt that doesn't pass JSLint
  337. # [10:39] <hsivonen> (your feedback isn't the first instance)
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  339. # [10:40] <zcorpan> does it pass jshint?
  340. # [10:40] <hsivonen> no idea
  341. # [10:41] <hsivonen> also, jshint has configurability
  342. # [10:41] <zcorpan> Line 1var foo = '<\!--';
  343. # [10:41] <zcorpan> Bad escapement.
  344. # [10:41] <zcorpan> boo
  345. # [10:42] * zcorpan files a bug
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  351. # [10:48] <zcorpan> argh. github ate my bug
  352. # [10:48] <zcorpan> i hate typing the same thing twice
  353. # [10:51] <zcorpan> and now github ate my backslashes
  354. # [10:53] <zcorpan> https://github.com/jshint/jshint/issues/141
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  366. # [11:18] <jgraham> I wonder is someone will object to Ms2ger reviewing hsivonen's tests
  367. # [11:18] <jgraham> *if
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  370. # [11:34] <jgraham> zcorpan: If you added Hixie to the CC of your websockets email it isn't obvious
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  372. # [11:37] <zcorpan> uh. lemme check
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  374. # [11:37] <zcorpan> Cc: "hybi@ietf.org" <hybi@ietf.org>, "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
  375. # [11:38] <jgraham> Oh
  376. # [11:38] <jgraham> OK
  377. # [11:38] <zcorpan> i think the hybi list is eating Cc or something
  378. # [11:39] <zcorpan> i noticed it didn't show up emoller as cc with the original email either
  379. # [11:39] <jgraham> In that case I will stop trying to QA the assertions in your mail about recipients :)
  380. # [11:40] <zcorpan> heh
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  407. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> jgraham: in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110426#l-35
  408. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> what is "pms"?
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  410. # [13:00] <jgraham> MikeSmith: http://pimpmyspec.net/
  411. # [13:01] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It's a frontend to Anolis
  412. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
  413. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> just didn't make the connection to the abbreviation
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  415. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> so is it working now?
  416. # [13:01] <jgraham> With a tendency to get upset if things get slow
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  418. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> ah
  419. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> OK
  420. # [13:03] <jgraham> Yeah, I don't really know if it is working now. But often it can be a problem if the W3C or WHATWG sites are slow because it times out trying to generate the issue markers
  421. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> oh
  422. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> that's probably what it was yesterday
  423. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> W3C site was having some load problems
  424. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> Philip`: btw, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12539
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  436. # [14:10] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Hmm, I think I'm using the lxml HTML parser which might be what's causing that
  437. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> Philip`: oh
  438. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> the parser, not the serializer?
  439. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> I'm running the splitter with the html5lib-serialiser option
  440. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> because I think I ran into other borkedness if I don't use that use that option
  441. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> and I think I'm not using the html5lib-parser option because it makes the script run much slower
  442. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> when run on the HTML5 spec
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  444. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> but I guess I can try that now and see if it fixes it
  445. # [14:14] <Philip`> Without --html5lib-parser it'll use lxml which I presume may parse &lang; into U+2329, and then the html5lib serialiser will output &#9001;
  446. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> yeah
  447. # [14:15] <Philip`> Probably the most robust solution would be to not use "&lang;" in the spec
  448. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> true that
  449. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> but not much I can do about that
  450. # [14:15] <Philip`> (rather than hacking some solution into the splitter, or forcing the splitter to be very slow)
  451. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> earthquake
  452. # [14:16] <Philip`> Someone can ask Hixie to change it, I guess :-)
  453. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> sure
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  455. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> but I guess I tend to assume if Hixie is doing something a certain way, he's got a well-considered reason
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  457. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> but maybe that's not always the right assumption…
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  459. # [14:36] <zcorpan> file a spec bug
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  462. # [14:40] <zcorpan> oh there was a spec bug
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  464. # [14:48] <karlcow> http://www.webm-ccl.org/
  465. # [14:48] <karlcow> "By joining the CCL, member organizations likewise agree to license patents they may have that are essential to WebM technologies to other members of the CCL."
  466. # [14:48] <karlcow> ?
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  480. # [15:13] <hsivonen> hmm. validator.nu is having a DNS outage
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  502. # [15:55] <matjas> what should <img src=foo><base href="http://example.org/blah/"><img src=foo> do?
  503. # [15:56] <matjas> (re: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5710&to=5711)
  504. # [15:57] <matjas> I’ve made a simple test case: http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/base but implementations greatly differ
  505. # [15:57] <hsivonen> matjas: both images should resolve to http://example.org/blah/foo
  506. # [15:57] <matjas> hsivonen: Firefox gets it right then
  507. # [15:57] <hsivonen> matjas: of course :-)
  508. # [15:57] <matjas> as the only browser
  509. # [15:58] <hsivonen> whoa. I thought we specced Chrome's behavior
  510. # [15:58] <matjas> Most browsers display 1-2
  511. # [15:58] <matjas> Even IE6
  512. # [15:58] <matjas> IE7, 8 and 9 just ignore the base and display 1-1
  513. # [15:58] <matjas> Same goes for IE10pp1, if that’s any indication
  514. # [15:58] <hsivonen> hmm. was the spec change based on incorrect data about Chrome's behavior?
  515. # [15:59] <matjas> I don’t know, there’s no bug ID and I’m unaware of the history here
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  517. # [16:00] <hsivonen> matjas: Firefox had behavior close to IE6. Then in the Firefox 4 product cycle, it changed to then-spec, which was similar to IE7 through 10
  518. # [16:00] <hsivonen> then both spec and Firefox were changed and, IIRC, they supposedly changed to match Chrome
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  520. # [16:01] <matjas> Woah.
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  522. # [16:03] <hsivonen> abarth: see above. what's going on here?
  523. # [16:03] <hsivonen> has Chrome changed since September or did I mistest back then?
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  525. # [16:13] <zewt> wouldn't doing that cause browsers to start fetching and rendering a resource with the original base, then have to cancel and switch to the correct one?
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  547. # [17:01] <zewt> FF4 is racy with using <base> like that: if it's already started loading an image with the original base, it does not *reload* it if it sees a <base> later
  548. # [17:01] <zewt> (tested it because I was wondering if it would--because if it did that would have weird implications for eg. <img onload>)
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  552. # [17:04] <abarth> hsivonen: not sure
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  576. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> hmm
  577. # [17:58] * MikeSmith wonders when "the figure element has no text node descendants other than inter-element whitespace, and no embedded content descendant other than the img element" qualifying language got added to the criteria for the figcaption exception
  578. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno if you are still around today but that bit there really complicates implementation of alt-text checking
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  580. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> though I guess it would be pretty straightforward to check with schematron/xpath
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  583. # [18:08] <jgraham> Is there some specific distinction between "support" and "advocate" that I am missing
  584. # [18:08] <jgraham> ?
  585. # [18:09] <webben> jgraham: where?
  586. # [18:09] <gsnedders> advocate implies actually trying to convince others?
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  589. # [18:11] <jgraham> "I expect poll survey from Apple representatives would support an MIT license" vs "we have yet to have somebody specifically advocate for [the MIT license]"
  590. # [18:11] <webben> ah
  591. # [18:14] <zewt> advocating takes more work than supporting :)
  592. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> Even if you charitably assume that's what's meant, CC0 definitely has advocates.
  593. # [18:17] <jgraham> The question is whether merely having supporters rather than advocates should be sufficient to exclude an option from the poll
  594. # [18:17] <jgraham> That seems like an insane policy in a consensus driven environment
  595. # [18:17] <jgraham> (which maybe licensing discussions aren't but still)
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  598. # [18:19] <jgraham> It is quite easy to imagine that there are people who can live with the MIT that cannot live with CC0 but prefer an Option X license and people who cannot live with an Option X license, can live with MIT, but prefer CC0
  599. # [18:20] <jgraham> It seems Apple may be an example of the former and Mozilla of the latter
  600. # [18:20] <jgraham> Note: *may*
  601. # [18:21] <jgraham> Obviously I don't actually know what these organisations will say
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  690. # [20:20] <Hixie> hsivonen, matjas: actually that's not quite right (re <base>)
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  695. # [20:21] <Hixie> hsivonen, matjas: what matters is the <base> *when the image url is resolved*, which is typically when the element is created, and so the two images would have different URLs
  696. # [20:21] <matjas> What exactly? Tell me more :)
  697. # [20:22] <matjas> Yeah, that’s what I had expected to be honest
  698. # [20:22] <Hixie> hsivonen, matjas: see "update the image data" in the spec and note that nothing causes that to trigger when the base url changes
  699. # [20:23] <matjas> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#update-the-image-data
  700. # [20:23] <matjas> So Firefox 4 is in fact wrong
  701. # [20:23] <matjas> And most browsers are already doing it right (incl. IE6)
  702. # [20:23] <matjas> That makes sense.
  703. # [20:23] <zewt> matjas: fyi, http://zewt.org/~glenn/test-firefox-racy-base/
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  705. # [20:24] <Hixie> if you look at the source of the spec you'll notice it mentions this in a comment often
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  708. # [20:25] <zewt> sort of a strange mechanism to have within body (though it makes sense in head), seems like it would have been cleaner as an attribute, eg. <div base=url><img src=file.jpg></div> so it's scoped
  709. # [20:25] <matjas> zewt: Interesting.
  710. # [20:25] <Hixie> <base> isn't allowed in body
  711. # [20:25] <Hixie> but we still have to define how it works
  712. # [20:25] <Hixie> when people do it anyway
  713. # [20:26] <zewt> either it's defined and allowed or defined to do nothing (and so disallowed), defining something and then saying it's disallowed doesn't make much sense :)
  714. # [20:27] <Hixie> sure it does
  715. # [20:27] <matjas> zewt: http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#support-existing-content
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  717. # [20:27] <Hixie> there are many things that have stupid behaviours due to legacy error handling that we have to define that way but that we say are non-conforming because the results are crazy and confusing
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  722. # [20:31] <zewt> when something is defined and compliant browsers are required to support it, it's just sort of meaningless to then call it "non-confirming"; it sounds like you're using "non-conforming" to mean something in the spirit of "deprecated" in other contexts (without the implication that it'll be removed), which is more along the lines of "we recommend against using this", but not "this isn't allowed"
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  726. # [20:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a reason why base URL changes don't trigger img re-resolution?
  727. # [20:35] <zewt> hsivonen: that seems like really nasty behavior
  728. # [20:35] <Hixie> when i specced that, or suggested that i would, vendors were uniform in telling me that that was way too much complexity and that they wouldn't implement it
  729. # [20:35] <Hixie> (if you actually follow the implications through it is quite painful)
  730. # [20:36] <zewt> you'd end up making a bunch of requests to bogus URLs before the base changes, showing image errors, firing onerror (or perhaps loading the wrong image entirely) ...
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  735. # [20:37] <hsivonen> zewt: with speculative loading, there's always an opportunity to fetch the wrong images
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  737. # [20:37] <zewt> yeah, but that would do it for the entire page up to that point
  738. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: anyway, it seems that bz, I and possibly sicking too looked at the spec and failed to realize that the spec didn't mean to make <base> affect earlier <img>s
  739. # [20:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: so clearly, the spec failed to work well for random access
  740. # [20:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: might be worthwhile to put a Note about this in the spec
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  743. # [20:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: where does the spec say that anything should happen?
  744. # [20:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: i considered making the non-requiremente explicit, that's why the spec has the statement about it not having an effect commented out everywhere it would be relevant
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  747. # [20:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: but making that explicit would be a massive amount of extra material with minimal benefit since it would only help a dozen people, each once
  748. # [20:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: if you have a suggestion for a specific note to add to the spec e.g. in the <base> section I'm happy to do that too, but I couldn't come up with a readable yet correct note 
  749. # [20:42] <jgraham> As someone who might be one of those dozen, I like the idea of it being explicit
  750. # [20:43] <jgraham> :)
  751. # [20:43] <Hixie> well file a bug saying what you want
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  762. # [21:01] <otherarun> Does anyone know why XHR2 defines mechanisms for inflating and deflating a DOMString? Why was that deemed necessary?
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  784. # [21:39] <Hixie> jgraham: still getting xml errors, fwiw
  785. # [21:39] <Hixie> jgraham: let me know if you need the output
  786. # [21:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: why are we adding caretBlinkRate as a method to the 2D Canvas object?
  787. # [21:40] <Hixie> that makes no sense
  788. # [21:40] <Hixie> shouldn't it be an attribute on Navigator or Window or something?
  789. # [21:41] <othermaciej> Hixie: that's what the proposal said, and no one proposed putting it somewhere different
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  791. # [21:41] <Hixie> i proposed not having it at all
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  793. # [21:41] <Hixie> which seems better than having it on canvas
  794. # [21:42] <Hixie> and clearly you were ok with changing what people proposed
  795. # [21:42] <Hixie> since you did
  796. # [21:42] <othermaciej> I would guess a separate change to move the API somewhere more central would probably not be a problem
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  799. # [21:43] <Hixie> also wtf is up with this ridiculous example i'm supposed to put in
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  803. # [21:49] <jgraham> Hixie: The output would be nice. Or the exact URL you are loading
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  805. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> I suspet it's the "canvascarseldecision20110426.html" file attached to Richard's email in the "Re: CP is incoherent..." thread.
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  809. # [21:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: he meant the xml error, different thing :-)
  810. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> Ah, never mind.
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  822. # [22:23] <roc> caretBlinkRate???
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  826. # [22:29] <othermaciej> roc: if Mozilla is unwilling or unable to implement such a thing, that would be relevant information
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  829. # [22:37] <roc> where is caretBlinkRate being proposed?
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  833. # [22:41] <Philip`> roc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Apr/att-0129/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110415.html via http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/CaretSelection via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0271.html
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  849. # [23:19] <Hixie> jgraham: still broken
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  873. # [23:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: why does this api change drawFocusRing() to draw the focus ring even if you give it an element that isn't focused? (the CP checks the ancestor chain as well)
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  875. # [23:50] <othermaciej> Hixie: that I do not know - I guess I should have read the text and diffed it against the spec instead of just relying on the bullet points
  876. # [23:50] <othermaciej> one thing I can imagine is a single element may be focused but you want to draw focus rings around all the pieces; but that doesn't really make sense, you could just construct a path like that in the first place
  877. # [23:52] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@75.16.26.133) (Quit: othermaciej)
  878. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Basically, it seems like when the issue is "you should design an API for this", the decision process is extremely ill-suited, as it requires people to bundle up the "I think this is an area we should cover" with a specific API design.
  879. # [23:53] * Quits: dydx (~dydz@75.16.26.133) (Quit: dydx)
  880. # [23:53] <Hixie> that the system is broken is clear
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  882. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Well, I mean it's *extra* broken when the issue needs API design work.
  883. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Because you have people with no API design skills being forced to design an API so that they have a precise description of the desired change.
  884. # [23:54] <karlcow> http://marcdrummond.com/xhtml/2011/04/26/when-standards-go-awry
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  886. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> And then that precise API is required to be pulled into the spec.
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  888. # [23:55] <Hixie> it's not just api design skills that are lacking. i presume i'm supposed to fix grammatical mistakes but i've no idea what this sentence that i'm supposed to add is trying to say: "If the given element is focused or a descendant of the element with focus, draws a focus ring around the current path, following the platform conventions for focus rings."
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  890. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> That's clear to me (I dunno if it's sensical in context).
  891. # [23:56] <Hixie> oh, wait, i think i understand what it's saying
  892. # [23:56] <Hixie> it's just overly long
  893. # [23:56] <Hixie> ok
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  897. # [23:58] <Hixie> this api doesn't make sense
  898. # [23:58] <Hixie> what happens if someone just calls drawFocusRing() but nothing else?
  899. # [23:58] <Hixie> does it not magnify the focused element?
  900. # [23:59] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) ("There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and BSD. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.")
  901. # Session Close: Wed Apr 27 00:00:00 2011

The end :)