/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 27 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:07] <richardschwerdtf> because some applications manage focus for their children
  8. # [00:07] <richardschwerdtf> what does not make sense is the fact that your existing api falls through when someone draws custom focus rings and a special system setting is not set to draw a focus ring a certain way
  9. # [00:08] <richardschwerdtf> when that happens NO magnifier gets notified of the change
  10. # [00:08] <richardschwerdtf> if you had read the change proposal you would have seen the bug.
  11. # [00:09] <richardschwerdtf> candrawcustom is stupid anyway.
  12. # [00:10] <richardschwerdtf> all you need to do is set up your drawing path before making the call and if the system has not configured a specific drawing style drawfocusring simply draws it the way the author has specified.
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  14. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> yo, richardschwerdtf, while you're here, can I request that you send your emails as plaintext instead of HTML? Your emails are distractingly and sometimes unreadably styled.
  15. # [00:12] <richardschwerdtf> how do you mean?
  16. # [00:13] <richardschwerdtf> are you wanting to have monospaced fonts?
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  18. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Your emails are HTML. Your editting system sets custom font and size, and occasionally color, which makes it hard for me to rea.
  19. # [00:13] <richardschwerdtf> Lotus Notes. - I will see what I can do, sure
  20. # [00:14] <richardschwerdtf> thanks for letting me know
  21. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> The color thing is really bad - occasionally the text is black or dark blue, which is unreadable in my Gmail theme of green-text-on-black
  22. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Cool.
  23. # [00:14] <richardschwerdtf> wow. that would dreadful
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  25. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> Yeah. It's often hard to tell whether your text is 'black' or 'automatic' in most GUI editors, unless you manually check the text color.
  26. # [00:15] <richardschwerdtf> I updated to a new version of Notes this past week. so, something must have been enabled i did not notice.
  27. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Nah, this is something that's always been true.
  28. # [00:16] <richardschwerdtf> hmm. ok
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  30. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Like I said, the color thing doesn't always happen; it's occasional. The font/size thing, though, is always true, and somewhat randomly inconsistent - one email will be slightly larger font-size for no reason I can tell.
  31. # [00:17] <richardschwerdtf> ugh. that is distracting. - sorry
  32. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> It's cool. Most email editors can be told to send plaintext instead of HTML. That makes everything easy, because then there's no way for accidental styling to creep in.
  33. # [00:19] <richardschwerdtf> digging into notes now
  34. # [00:19] <aho> emails should be plain text
  35. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> aho: I'm of the opinion that email readers should be like RSS readers, and just strip/ignore styles from the document.
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  37. # [00:21] <aho> my email client is configured to show messages as plain text
  38. # [00:21] <aho> images are also not shown :>
  39. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Gmail used to have a lab to do that, but they removed it. >_<
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  41. # [00:22] <Philip`> TabAtkins: That'd break the reading of some emails that only differentiate quoted text by style
  42. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> Philip`: People who do that should be shot. Simple. ^_^&
  43. # [00:22] <aho> another problem solved :)
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  45. # [00:23] <richardschwerdtf> tab, just send you an email let me know if it came out alright
  46. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> It's still being sent as HTML.
  47. # [00:23] <richardschwerdtf> ugh
  48. # [00:23] <richardschwerdtf> ok
  49. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> And, because email readers are lowest-common-denominator, it's styled with <font>. ^_^
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  52. # [00:26] <richardschwerdtf> yes. I chose plain text for internet email. need to dig further.
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  61. # [00:33] <zewt> heh, my #1 problem with gmail is there's no way to restrict what people can do with fonts, particularly font size
  62. # [00:33] <zewt> people on yahoo mail in particular seem to like sending mails in 35pt
  63. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> YES
  64. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> argh
  65. # [00:34] <zewt> which isn't really their fault--I tried searching to find out how to reset it (to give one of them a hint), and I couldn't even figure it out
  66. # [00:34] <wilhelm> mutt sucks, but at least it got that part right. (c:
  67. # [00:34] * wilhelm is an unhappy mutt user.
  68. # [00:35] <heycam> isn't every mutt user an unhappy mutt user? :)
  69. # [00:36] <wilhelm> I would think so. (Not that the alternatives are any better. Email sucks. :)
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  78. # [00:46] <hober> gnus ftw :)
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  84. # [00:52] <wilhelm> hober: As an atheist, I'm keeping a safe distance from the Church of Emacs. (c:
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  89. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Darn, why is our EventSource implementation broken? Now I know why I couldn't ever get it to work.
  90. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> It just polls the page for you. If you hold the connection open and send data incrementally, there'll never be a 'message' event.
  91. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> That's kinda useless.
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  119. # [01:55] <zewt> aho: by the way re: multiple range requests and reading multiple files out of a zip in one request, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-06#page-11
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  121. # [01:55] <aho> heh
  122. # [01:55] <zewt> (we were confused before since we were looking at Content-Range, the response header, rather than the request header)
  123. # [01:58] <aho> gonna stick with gzipped (simple index + concatinated data) for now though... well, for my games, that is
  124. # [01:59] <aho> do you happen to know how to make xhr get cachable with opera?
  125. # [01:59] <zewt> don't know any workaround for that
  126. # [01:59] <aho> far future expires headers do nothing
  127. # [01:59] <aho> well... i could just stick all of that into local storage, but that looks kinda silly
  128. # [02:00] <zewt> you shouldn't have to reimplement http caching with web storage, heh
  129. # [02:00] <aho> also with a few games on one site that 5mb limit will be broken easily
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  131. # [02:01] <aho> i probably should just ignore it for now
  132. # [02:01] <zewt> i think some mobile versions of google sites, like images.google, cache javascript in localStorage
  133. # [02:01] <zewt> pretty... gross, heh
  134. # [02:01] <aho> it works in any other browser and opera's market share is kinda small
  135. # [02:01] <aho> yea they pump js, css, and whatever into local storage in order to bypass awkward limitations of mobile browsers
  136. # [02:02] <aho> eg the iphone won't cache anything >25kb
  137. # [02:02] <aho> (or >15kb... depends on the version of the os)
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  139. # [02:02] <zewt> that's another strangeness--if you're on a cell connection caching is even more important than usual, so it's strange that they don't cache as aggressively as available storage allows
  140. # [02:03] <aho> well, i can imagine why they did that
  141. # [02:03] <zewt> on early generation phones which had more limited storage, okay
  142. # [02:03] <aho> latency is very high... so they rather try to cache as many of those tiny files as possible
  143. # [02:03] <zewt> i don't know how much caching androidbrowser does, either
  144. # [02:03] <aho> personally, i think they should have differenciated between images and js though
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  148. # [02:06] <aho> ah found it on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/guj5m/the_mobile_version_of_bing_uses_localstorage_to
  149. # [02:07] <aho> also this thing: http://www.phpied.com/iphone-caching/
  150. # [02:07] <aho> mobile browsers are disgusting :)
  151. # [02:08] <zewt> it's pretty fundamentally nonsensical to stop caching based on size--it means that optimizing loads by combining scripts into one file can lead to it not being cached
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  153. # [02:10] <aho> yea
  154. # [02:10] <aho> or sprites... or merged css files
  155. # [02:10] <aho> (spritesheets) :>
  156. # [02:11] <aho> speaking of optimizations, i'm really looking forward to webp with alpha
  157. # [02:11] <aho> finally we will have some kind of lossy rgba image format on the web
  158. # [02:11] <zewt> i'm pretty badly unimpressed with webp
  159. # [02:11] <aho> (i still wish mozilla hadn't killed jng back then...)
  160. # [02:12] <aho> http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/on-a-horse-opera-turbo-to-the-rescue
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  162. # [02:12] <aho> it's somewhat smaller at usual quality and quit a lot smaller at somewhat acceptable quality
  163. # [02:12] <aho> well, the key point for me is lossy+alpha
  164. # [02:12] <zewt> it's aggrevating that with google in a position to push a newer image format, they're pushing a half-baked, narrow-focus one that isn't actually a general replacement for jpeg
  165. # [02:13] <aho> that's the only raison d'être it needs
  166. # [02:13] <aho> afaict it's at least as good as jpg
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  168. # [02:14] <zewt> i remember off-hand that it has smaller resolution limitations; recall there being some other limitations but don't recall them off-hand
  169. # [02:15] <aho> 16383x16383
  170. # [02:16] <aho> big enough for the web
  171. # [02:16] <aho> jpg is probably 64k x 64k
  172. # [02:16] <aho> (like png)
  173. # [02:16] <zewt> see, that's a narrow-minded focus, which is very different from the mindset of making a *general-purpose* image format
  174. # [02:16] <zewt> yep
  175. # [02:17] <zewt> i don't want to see an "image format for the web"; i want to see a general-purpose lossy image format, with one major use being the web
  176. # [02:17] <aho> lots of png loaders break apart at 32k though :>
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  178. # [02:18] <aho> 16k is enough for most things though
  179. # [02:18] <aho> web, games, photos...
  180. # [02:18] <zewt> but it's smaller than jpeg, which means there are uses which jpeg handles and webp does not, which means jpeg isn't completely obsoleted
  181. # [02:19] <aho> print (up to A4, i guess)
  182. # [02:19] <aho> true
  183. # [02:19] <zewt> i don't want to see "use the new format, unless you need to do this list of uncommon but valid things:"
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  185. # [02:20] <aho> well, you won't need to tell that anyone. webp simply won't be available as option if the dimensions are too big
  186. # [02:21] <aho> or if the bitdepth is too high
  187. # [02:21] <zewt> and now they have to worry about the differences between the formats, instead of forgetting about the obsolete format; and they'll have to do this effectively forever
  188. # [02:22] <zewt> which is the main problem--if webp gains traction we'll probably not see a new generation of lossy still image compression for 20+ years
  189. # [02:22] <aho> well, we can use jp2 in about 10 years :>
  190. # [02:22] <aho> (jpeg2000)
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  192. # [02:24] <aho> either way, this is my primary concern: http://kaioa.com/b/1011/jng_decision_matrix.svgz
  193. # [02:24] <aho> thing is, people do it anyways and the pages get *amazingly* fat
  194. # [02:25] <zewt> i wonder how it handles alpha-channel artifacting; if artifacts cause pixels to become partially opaque where they were originally fully transparent, it effectively displays undefined pixels in the color channels
  195. # [02:26] <aho> yes, but that doesn't really matter
  196. # [02:27] <aho> there are wrong colors, but the opacity will be very low
  197. # [02:27] <zewt> it matters if you jack the compression level up high enough to create nontrivial artifacts
  198. # [02:27] <aho> http://kaioa.com/b/1102/svgjng/index.html <- take a look (with opera)
  199. # [02:27] <zewt> which is less of a problem with better compression, but it's always possible
  200. # [02:28] <zewt> i guess it'd probably not look any more wrong than the other rgb compression artifacts that would also happen
  201. # [02:29] <aho> webp will most likely support two modes for alpha: lossy and lossless (similar to jng)
  202. # [02:30] <aho> the quality of the alpha channel can be changed independently
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  204. # [02:30] <aho> so, you do have some control how broken the result will look
  205. # [02:34] <zewt> also, i assume webp doesn't address animations and sprites; animations aren't so important but they're logically identical to sprites, which are
  206. # [02:35] <aho> foo.webp#bar foo.webp#baz etc would be cool
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  208. # [02:36] <aho> well... probably the wrong place ;)
  209. # [02:36] <zewt> well, less concerned about how it's exposed at the higher level as there being support for it within the file format--if it's supported by the format then web APIs using it will follow, if it's finalized and deployed without it, well...
  210. # [02:38] <aho> feel free to discuss that with the people over at #vp8
  211. # [02:38] <aho> skal is the dude who's working on alpha, by the way
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  213. # [02:39] <aho> i for one don't really know if having multiple "pages" makes much sense with that format
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  219. # [02:46] <aho> on a somewhat related note, i wonder if i should write some canvas based jpg+jpg or jpg+png splicing thing, which uses localStorage to store the result
  220. # [02:46] <aho> would be fun, i guess
  221. # [02:47] <aho> but it also got some kind of passive-aggressive martyr taste to it :>
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  234. # [03:31] <Hixie> MikeSmith: let me know when you need me to regen the spec for publication
  235. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> hai
  236. # [03:35] <Hixie> i'll try to avoid having any big patches outstanding this time so i can actually do it unlike last time :-)
  237. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> heh
  238. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> so everything on the W3C cvs side is ready
  239. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> the boilerplate
  240. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> and I have not made any changes since last time, so there should be no cvs conflicts
  241. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> I think
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  243. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> is there are use case for a nested <figure> ?
  244. # [04:00] <aho> http://i.imgur.com/DTJtA.jpg
  245. # [04:00] <aho> :I
  246. # [04:00] <aho> other than that... no
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  248. # [04:04] <karlcow> MikeSmith: there is http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zuKg9DRLTjI/TE81sUrCcvI/AAAAAAAABBM/sM52ZHhhXFY/s1600/mise_en_abyme.jpg ;)
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  250. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> heh
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  288. # [06:16] <karlcow> http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/04/google-builds-webm-patent-pool-of-its-own-to-fight-back-against-mpeg-la.ars
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  308. # [07:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: did you commit the new headers?
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  310. # [07:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i did cvs up but it didn't do anything
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  312. # [07:04] <ben_h> hey dudes
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  315. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I didn't make any changes to the headers, because I thought the plan was just to regen a new ED
  316. # [07:08] <Hixie> oh ok
  317. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> should I be flipping it to WD?
  318. # [07:08] <Hixie> sorry i thought they wanted a WD
  319. # [07:08] <Hixie> i dunno
  320. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> hmm
  321. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> yeah, I'm not sure either
  322. # [07:08] <othermaciej> no
  323. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> but I don't think they want to do a new WD
  324. # [07:08] <Hixie> ok
  325. # [07:08] <othermaciej> the request was just to update the ED
  326. # [07:08] <Hixie> well then nevermind!
  327. # [07:08] <MikeSmith> heh
  328. # [07:08] <othermaciej> since it was out of sync
  329. # [07:09] <Hixie> oh right, it's still out of sync
  330. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> I'm good at neverminding
  331. # [07:09] <Hixie> let me try regenning
  332. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I hope the changes I committed for the April 05 WD publication didn't bork up the regen process
  333. # [07:10] <Hixie> no, it's some xml problem with pms
  334. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> but if it did, I would imagine you'd be seeing conflict messages from csv
  335. # [07:10] <Hixie> nothing to do with the cvs stuff
  336. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> *cvs
  337. # [07:10] <Hixie> yeah
  338. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> ok
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  340. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> ben_h: hey Lads
  341. # [07:11] <Hixie> ooh, it worked
  342. # [07:11] <Hixie> cool
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  344. # [07:11] <ben_h> :) sup mike?
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  346. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> ben_h: too much excitement, I think I'm going to change careers and become a gardener
  347. # [07:13] <ben_h> ha!
  348. # [07:13] <ben_h> who's been causing all the ruckus?
  349. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> the Web platform
  350. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> if the Web platform could just be sensible and easier to work with, we'd all be much happier
  351. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> ben_h: you guys making the pilgrimage to Japan again this summer?
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  353. # [07:17] <ben_h> most definitely
  354. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> sweet
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  356. # [07:17] <ben_h> i mean, nothing's organised or booked - but i'm going
  357. # [07:18] <ben_h> i get this nostalgic feeling when i think of japan
  358. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> me too
  359. # [07:18] <ben_h> something about it. what a place
  360. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> and I live here!
  361. # [07:18] <ben_h> hahaha
  362. # [07:18] <ben_h> even though i've only spent a month there :)
  363. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> you all should stay in my neighborhood again
  364. # [07:18] <ben_h> mmm, would love to
  365. # [07:19] <ben_h> might get an apartment for during the conference, and then stay in a couple of ryokans
  366. # [07:19] <ben_h> no hotels this time :)
  367. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, hotels are boring
  368. # [07:19] <ben_h> mmm
  369. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> speaking of summer, Robert Frost once wrote a poem about the Web platform. he called it "The Oven Bird"
  370. # [07:20] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.156.38)
  371. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> The bird would cease and be as other birds / But that he knows in singing not to sing. / The question that he frames in all but word / Is what to make of a diminished thing.
  372. # [07:21] <TabAtkins> Dammit, now I'm bleeding.
  373. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: did you fall upon the thorns of life again?
  374. # [07:22] <TabAtkins> Fell off my bike on the way back to the office.
  375. # [07:22] <TabAtkins> It'll teach me not to talk to rollerbladers while riding on the sidewalk.
  376. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> heh
  377. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> you should claim it as a genuine crash, instead of a falling off
  378. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> crashing is cool, like Evel Kneivel
  379. # [07:24] <TabAtkins> True.
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  381. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> he even looks like you!
  382. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/At_Home_With_Evel_Knievel.jpg
  383. # [07:24] <TabAtkins> ...yes. He looks exactly like me.
  384. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> or maybe it's just the similar clothing
  385. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> Thomas Hardy also once wrote about poem about the Web Platform
  386. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> or more precisely I guess about that the work related to getting it standardized
  387. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> he called his poem "The Convergence of the Twain"
  388. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> and he used the term "vaingloriousness" in it
  389. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> which is one of the greatest words in the language
  390. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> "The intimate welding of their later history"
  391. # [07:27] <TabAtkins> I remember that poem. And that word.
  392. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> yeah, it is seriously great
  393. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> "consummation comes, and jars two hemispheres"
  394. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> the even better thing about that word is that in the poem, the people who use it are fishes
  395. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> so even fishes know the word "vaingloriousness"
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  397. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> the actual original line that Hardy wrote for the fishes was, "WTF this vaingloriousness down here?"
  398. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> but his editor made him change it
  399. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> it's not clear why
  400. # [07:30] <TabAtkins> Fucking editors.
  401. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> maybe he thought that fishes don't know about "WTF"
  402. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: amen
  403. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> edtors, as a class, are absolutely nothing but trouble and a massive PITA
  404. # [07:31] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: fine work tonight
  405. # [07:31] <TabAtkins> Can't live with 'em.
  406. # [07:31] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Thanks!
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  408. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> btw, I finished implementing http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers in my validator.nu workspace today
  409. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> and pushed it to http://www.w3.org/html/check for testing
  410. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> so if anybody has time and interest in helping to test it, please test it there
  411. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> it's pretty straightforward except for the stuff related to figure and figcaption
  412. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> which I think I have right but not sure
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  425. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: Hixie commit to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ done
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  484. # [11:00] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: is it publication time?
  485. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: no, just getting W3C copy synced up
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  487. # [11:01] <zcorpan> oh
  488. # [11:02] <zcorpan> lemme know when i should get html-differences up to speed; i don't always read public-html :)
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  492. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> ok
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  494. # [11:09] <othermaciej> zcorpan: I don't think there will be another publication before LCWD, unless that gets dragged out
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  497. # [11:09] <zcorpan> othermaciej: ok
  498. # [11:10] <othermaciej> which reminds me that I should raise the topic of CR exit criteria
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  500. # [11:10] <othermaciej> maybe it would be good to write those before 1st LC
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  505. # [11:18] * jgraham wonders if "CR exit criteria" are "criteria for reaching CR" or "criteria for reaching PR"
  506. # [11:18] <othermaciej> traditionally CR exit criteria are the criteria to exit CR
  507. # [11:18] <othermaciej> the spec is supposed to fulfill them to exit CR
  508. # [11:19] <othermaciej> usually it's something about test suite, implementations, yada yada
  509. # [11:19] <jgraham> PR entrance criteria
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  512. # [11:19] <othermaciej> however I believe the spec has to contain (as opposed to fulfill) them before entering CR
  513. # [11:19] <jgraham> The process document doesn't really talk about exit criteria afaict
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  515. # [11:27] <othermaciej> it seems we do need to prepare a list of "at risk" features
  516. # [11:28] <othermaciej> and a "a report of present and expected implementations"
  517. # [11:28] <othermaciej> Also PR entrance criteria include:
  518. # [11:29] <othermaciej> 2. Shown that each feature of the technical report has been implemented. Preferably, the Working Group should be able to demonstrate two interoperable implementations of each feature. If the Director believes that immediate Advisory Committee review is critical to the success of a technical report, the Director may accept to Call for Review of a Proposed Recommendation even without adequate implementation experience;
  519. # [11:29] <othermaciej> 3. Satisfied any other announced entrance criteria (e.g., any included in the request to advance to Candidate Recommendation, or announced at Last Call if the Working Group does not intend to issue a Call for Implementations).
  520. # [11:29] <othermaciej> #3 is presumably what is often called CR exit criteria but which in the Process document are PR entrance criteria
  521. # [11:31] <othermaciej> CSS specs seem to say "Candidate Recommendation Exit Criteria" but then "For this specification to enter Proposed Recommendation, the following conditions must be met:"
  522. # [11:31] <othermaciej> so it does seem to be a Process thing, though any requirement beyond the general one about interoperable implementations of each feature seems to be optional
  523. # [11:31] <jgraham> That one is strictly optional too
  524. # [11:32] <jgraham> Since it starts "preferably"
  525. # [11:32] <jgraham> It seems like a good idea however
  526. # [11:33] <jgraham> Or, rather, the other option there seems irrelevent
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  528. # [11:35] <jgraham> So CSS required two complete interoperable implementaions, not two per feature.
  529. # [11:35] <othermaciej> hmm, I was going to site the Selectors API CR exit criteria
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  531. # [11:35] <othermaciej> which I believe are like the CSS ones
  532. # [11:35] <othermaciej> but they are not in the spec
  533. # [11:36] <othermaciej> I like "two complete interoperable implementations" personally, even though for HTML5 that is a tall order
  534. # [11:36] <othermaciej> but it might be that the test suite is the hard part
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  536. # [11:38] <zcorpan> have we got any tests from selling t-shirts yet?
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  538. # [11:39] <jgraham> I like it in principle, but I think it could create a lot of negative pressure at the end to cut features or make worse tests
  539. # [11:39] <jgraham> At the moment we don't even knoww what a complete implementation would look like
  540. # [11:40] <othermaciej> I think every feature that doesn't yet have at least one reasonable implementation (maybe any that doesn't have two) should be marked "at risk"
  541. # [11:40] <othermaciej> then future generations can make the tradeoff between finalizing HTML5 faster vs having more things in HTML5 rather than deferred to 5.1/6/whatever
  542. # [11:40] <jgraham> That seems fair
  543. # [11:41] <jgraham> But I think there will be a lot of perfectly reasonable implementations of things that don't quite pass the testsuite
  544. # [11:41] <jgraham> If the testsuite is any good
  545. # [11:41] <jgraham> Which it is mostly not so far
  546. # [11:41] <othermaciej> this is why I think the test suite may be the hard part
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  548. # [11:42] <jgraham> I fully agree that the testsuite will be the hard part
  549. # [11:42] <othermaciej> I don't even know how to reasonably express test suite adequacy in the exit criteria
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  551. # [11:42] <othermaciej> I wonder how thorough something like the JCK is compared to the standard we might want for the HTML5 test suite
  552. # [11:42] <jgraham> Well ideally I would like to have some metric for spec coverage
  553. # [11:42] <jgraham> Like percentage of assertions in the spec
  554. # [11:43] <jgraham> that have tests
  555. # [11:43] <jgraham> ignoring cross dependencies
  556. # [11:43] <jgraham> Which would be something like a normal code coverage metric
  557. # [11:43] <othermaciej> I would guess you'd want 100% of testable assertions to have tests
  558. # [11:43] <jgraham> Yes
  559. # [11:43] <othermaciej> but then you have to sort out which MUSTs are relevant to the conformance class being tested, and which are in fact testable
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  561. # [11:44] <jgraham> The problem is that making such a metric turns out to be highly non-trivial on its own
  562. # [11:44] <jgraham> Philip` did it for the 2D API spec, but it is non trivial to scale
  563. # [11:45] <jgraham> http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/spec.html
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  565. # [11:47] <Philip`> Will we need to have two complete interoperable implementations of HTML5 validators too?
  566. # [11:48] <othermaciej> well that is another interesting question - which conformance classes are relevant?
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  569. # [11:49] <jgraham> Do we need two interoperable implementations of HTML authors?
  570. # [11:49] <jgraham> Because I have never seen two authors agree on correct usage :)
  571. # [11:50] <othermaciej> "Web browsers and other interactive user agents" are an almost-superset of the requirements for many of the other conformance classes
  572. # [11:50] <othermaciej> conformance checkers are the only other class that is even plausibly testable
  573. # [11:54] <jgraham> Are there *any* existing tests for conformance checkers?
  574. # [11:55] <Philip`> I'm sure I've seen some conformance tests for validator.nu
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  576. # [11:57] <Philip`> It seems hard to test the spec comprehensively when it doesn't distinguish between document conformance requirements that are mechanically verifiable and those that aren't
  577. # [12:01] <jgraham> Is that something that needs interpretation, or just something that can be mechanically deduced from the conformance requirment?
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  579. # [12:03] <othermaciej> I don't think it can be deduced by machine which document conformance requirements are machine-testable
  580. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> there are some vaiidator/document-conformance test documents here:
  581. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/validator/syntax/src/tip/relaxng/tests/
  582. # [12:05] * DaFireballl is now known as DaFireball
  583. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> and here: http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/
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  585. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> speaking of validator testing, I have what I hope is complete support for the current alternative-text checking criteria in the current spec
  586. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> at http://www.w3.org/html/check for testing
  587. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers <- this section
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  589. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ↑ (if you have any time to try it)
  590. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> hey david_carlisle
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  592. # [12:11] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: hi
  593. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> thanks for the help on the &#9001; thing
  594. # [12:13] <david_carlisle> didn't help much, just dumped it in bugziila for you to sort out:-)
  595. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> I hope Hixie will sort it out upstream so that I don't have to hack around it
  596. # [12:14] <hsivonen> someone has missed a memo: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12563
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  598. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> Philip`: btw, I tried running the splitter with --html5lib-parser
  599. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> and I get:
  600. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> File "html5-tools/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py", line 82, in <module>
  601. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> doctitle = doc.find('.//title').text
  602. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'text'
  603. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> but I don't get that when I omit that switch
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  605. # [12:16] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: You know you should all have used xmlspec xml and tools to generate the specs, your lives would be so much happier, all this html and python will lead to tears
  606. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> heh
  607. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> no thanks
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  610. # [12:24] <AryehGregor> "If Google would prefer a patent pool approach, then we would also agree to join a patent pool for VP8 on reasonable licensing terms so long as Google joins the pool and is able to include all other major providers of playback software and devices." http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/02/02/html5-and-web-video-questions-for-the-industry-from-the-community.aspx
  611. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> $ wget -qO- http://www.webm-ccl.org/members/ | grep Microsoft; echo $?
  612. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> 1
  613. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  614. # [12:25] <AryehGregor> I guess "all other major providers of playback software and devices" is a tall order.
  615. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the patch I sent you for review today is up to date with both the spec and the recent WG decision about conformance criteria for alternative text (I think)
  616. # [12:28] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Hmm, I'm sure --html5lib-parser worked at some point in the past
  617. # [12:28] <Philip`> but I don't know which point
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  619. # [12:29] <othermaciej> I wonder how many of the companies on the list even have any video-related patents
  620. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> maybe still works, just not in my environment
  621. # [12:29] <MikeSmith> or something
  622. # [12:29] <othermaciej> since you don't get told what patents are in the pool, I guess it is hard to find out
  623. # [12:29] <AryehGregor> The way the pool is set up, it seems like the companies themselves might not know which of their patents are in the pool, right?
  624. # [12:30] <AryehGregor> MPEG LA needs you to list the exact patents because they don't want to give you royalties if you don't really have an applicable patent.
  625. # [12:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. Looking now.
  626. # [12:30] <AryehGregor> "Persons joining the WebM Community Cross-License will not be required to identify Covered Patents. "
  627. # [12:31] <othermaciej> W3C also doesn't require you to list patents that you won't assert on a spec
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  630. # [12:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: this is going to make schematron and SchematronEquiv diverge, right?
  631. # [12:35] <hsivonen> s/SchematronEquiv/Assertions/
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  633. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have not tried to write it up in schematron yet
  634. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> are there parts of it that aren't implementable in schematron?
  635. # [12:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: dunno yet
  636. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> OK
  637. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think there is at least one other case of something I added to the Assertions checker that I did not add to the schematron stuff, because it was not practical (or maybe not even possible) to implement it in schematron/xpath as far as I could see
  638. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> but I can't remember right now what that was
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  640. # [12:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I sent you email about the patch
  641. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  674. # [15:02] <wilhelm> Hixie: So, should we go for blacklists or whitelists for register*Handler()? (c:
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  712. # [16:37] <AryehGregor> Okay, back to work for me.
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  722. # [16:57] <AryehGregor> . . . Google has disappeared from my search engine list in Firefox 5.0a2, and I can't see any way to get it back.
  723. # [17:00] <AryehGregor> Plus Firebug disabled itself.
  724. # [17:00] * AryehGregor switches back to Firefox 4
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  732. # [17:07] <jgraham> Google seems to be in the search engine list for me (in 6)
  733. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> Firefox 6?
  734. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> I thought they were only up to 5, even in nightlies.
  735. # [17:08] <jgraham> Yeah
  736. # [17:08] <jgraham> No, 5 is Auora
  737. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> Or is Aurora 5, and nightly is 6?
  738. # [17:08] <AryehGregor> Oh.
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  740. # [17:08] <jgraham> I had to futz to get firebug working
  741. # [17:08] <jgraham> fb .18 should work in 5 it seems
  742. # [17:09] <jgraham> *1.8
  743. # [17:09] <jgraham> But you have to disable the compat check in 6
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  748. # [17:28] <AryehGregor> Weird. Why does surroundContents(docfrag) raise an INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR in all browsers?
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  750. # [17:29] <TabAtkins> Useless answer: Because a docfrag is an invalid node type?
  751. # [17:29] <AryehGregor> Hmm, the insertNode() thing should fail somehow.
  752. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> When it calls insertBefore().
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  754. # [17:30] <AryehGregor> But that should be a HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR or something, not an INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR . . .
  755. # [17:30] * AryehGregor will investigate further
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  759. # [17:38] <smaug____> So http://mdv.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/docs/design_intro.html is effectively JS-fied XForms :)
  760. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> The "JSified" is the important part!
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  762. # [17:39] <smaug____> not sure why
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  764. # [17:40] <TabAtkins> Because it's what you actually want, given the common and appropriate paradigm of JS being your canonical source of data.
  765. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> Oh, DOM 2 Range says it should raise an INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR in that case . . .
  766. # [17:40] <AryehGregor> I have no idea why, but . . .
  767. # [17:41] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: huh? not RDF as the canonical source of data?
  768. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: ::shudder::
  769. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I meant in the context of a running application. Your data storage can be RDF or SQL or whatever.
  770. # [17:42] <TabAtkins> The point is that the data is canonical in the JS, not the DOM, so the DOM is just a view of the data.
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  774. # [17:55] * dglazkov|away is now known as dglazkov
  775. # [17:58] * jgraham wonders if the {{ }} syntax will cause problems with common server-side templating langauges
  776. # [18:01] <AryehGregor> Do common server-side templating languages often use {{}}? Other than wikitext . . .
  777. # [18:02] <jgraham> Dunno. Some use ${} which is slightly uncomfortably close
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  788. # [18:08] <Philip`> Django uses {{...}}
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  790. # [18:08] <Philip`> http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/templates/#variables
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  801. # [18:27] * Philip` thinks http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/04/27/ie9-compat-inspector.aspx looks like a nice idea since it gives useful error messages (suggesting upgrading specific JS libraries etc, instead of just moaning that there's an error), and also it doesn't suggest x-ua-compatible or attempt to disparage other browsers
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  803. # [18:28] <gsnedders> Philip`: I wonder if they change whether they list depending on libraries are loaded
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  809. # [18:31] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes, indeed. Foregoing marketing-driven mudslinging and instead providing helpful technical insight ftw
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  812. # [18:32] <Philip`> gsnedders: They don't (except for one test that's conditional on window.jQuery, reporting a bug in old jQuery versions)
  813. # [18:33] <Philip`> I presume if you're maintaining a site then you probably already know what JS libraries it's using (or can easily find out)
  814. # [18:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Hm, okay. I guess that's reasonable (libraries bound to different variables, etc.).
  815. # [18:34] <Philip`> and it seems to have a separate thing that tells you what libraries it detects anyway
  816. # [18:34] <Philip`> (but doesn't use that detection to alter any of the error messages)
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  829. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> + if (y !== y)
  830. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> + {
  831. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> + //NaN case
  832. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> + return y !== y;
  833. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> + }
  834. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> jgraham, I guess you mean return x !== x there?
  835. # [18:55] <AryehGregor> I'll fix it.
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  837. # [18:56] <gsnedders> x and y being expected and actual?
  838. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  839. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Fix pushed.
  840. # [18:57] * Joins: hdhoang (~hdhoang@203.210.156.38)
  841. # [18:57] <gsnedders> Ergh, can we not have one letter variables?
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  843. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Well, it's actually a same_value(x, y) function.
  844. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> So the two values are interchangeable, strictly.
  845. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> It happens to be that it's primarily used for expected and actual, but it doesn't have to be.
  846. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> So x and y are fairly appropriate here.
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  849. # [18:59] <Philip`> for (var iterator = 0; iterator < 10; ++iterator) alert('I sometimes like short variable names');
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  859. # [19:03] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Thanks
  860. # [19:04] <jgraham> gsnedders: As long as you don't use one letter variables in your programming-by-hand exams :p
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  862. # [19:05] <jgraham> (unless it is in Fortran. Then you are required to use one letter variables by the law of unreadable scientific code)
  863. # [19:05] <jgraham> (you can use two letters when you run out of one letters)
  864. # [19:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: I did only in lambdas, and where the questions gave arguments one-letter names.
  865. # [19:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: Or do what GWT does and just vary case
  866. # [19:08] <jgraham> That still only gives you 52 ascii letters to play with
  867. # [19:08] <jgraham> Naming things pWz or similar is encouraged
  868. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you know that instanceof appears to always return false in WebKit, in some cases?
  869. # [19:09] <AryehGregor> Specifically, ones I keep hitting in my tests.
  870. # [19:09] * AryehGregor investigates
  871. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Things like e instanceof Object being false, where e is a DOMException.
  872. # [19:10] <Philip`> jgraham: 52 is loads - x86 only gives you about 8 'variables' you can use at once, and that works fine
  873. # [19:10] <AryehGregor> Six, if you don't want to mess with the stack.
  874. # [19:10] <Philip`> You just need a separate array to overflow your set of variables into
  875. # [19:10] <jgraham> Point
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  877. # [19:11] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That sounds like a bug
  878. # [19:11] <jgraham> In WebKit
  879. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> jgraham, yeah, it does, doesn't it?
  880. # [19:11] * AryehGregor doesn't really want to make a reduced test case from several thousand lines of code, but it would be nice to be able to work around this better . . .
  881. # [19:12] <jgraham> You might be able to work out what is going on it Web Inspector
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  883. # [19:13] <jgraham> wilhelm: You should file the Gecko bug you found btw
  884. # [19:13] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: If only jgraham's framework had something like QuickCheck's reduce functionality
  885. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> What does that do?
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  887. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> Hmm, yeah, let me try Web Inspector first.
  888. # [19:13] <AryehGregor> Although I think I tried it before and didn't get what was going on.
  889. # [19:13] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It's reduces the Haskell down to a minimal TC it can programmatically find that fails
  890. # [19:14] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well you could use it with one of the tools for doing that to js
  891. # [19:14] <jgraham> I guess it likely won't be as elegant as QuickCheck
  892. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Okay, so in the console I've got !(e instanceof Object) and typeof e == "object".
  893. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Any ideas on what to look at from here?
  894. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Oh, hmm.
  895. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> I think the exception was thrown in a different window.
  896. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> In an iframe, specifically.
  897. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> Maybe that's it?
  898. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> So the interface objects aren't equal on the different windows?
  899. # [19:16] * AryehGregor tests
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  901. # [19:16] <jgraham> Oh yes, that is a known issue
  902. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> Yeah, e instanceof actualIframe.contentWindow.Object is true.
  903. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> So any way to work around that?
  904. # [19:17] <jgraham> I… don't remember
  905. # [19:17] <gsnedders> ES doesn't interact well with multiple globals
  906. # [19:17] <jgraham> I thought I was going to provide a way to pass in a window object
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  908. # [19:17] <jgraham> Did I?
  909. # [19:18] * Philip` presumes the interfaces couldn't be equal else you could do "Object.foo = 1" in one iframe and read it back in another and get cross-origin communication
  910. # [19:18] <jgraham> That's not how instanceof is specced to work in WebIDL I think
  911. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> Evil.
  912. # [19:19] <jgraham> But... yeah
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  915. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Does WebIDL actually define instanceof?
  916. # [19:21] * AryehGregor looks in ES5
  917. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> I hope so!
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  920. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Ah, [[HasInstance]].
  921. # [19:22] <jgraham> AryehGregor: [[HasInstance]]
  922. # [19:22] <jgraham> too slow :(
  923. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> "If V is a host object that implements the interface for which O is the interface prototype object, return true."
  924. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> But "If O and V refer to the same object, return true."
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  926. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> It doesn't seem to have thought of this case.
  927. # [19:23] <jgraham> I think only heycam really understands what is going on ;)
  928. # [19:23] <jgraham> But yeah, he said it hadn't considered this case
  929. # [19:24] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12295
  930. # [19:26] <jgraham> Is it surprising the things that come upo really quickly when you start testing stuff that are otherwise quite obscure
  931. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/961
  932. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Only works in Firefox.
  933. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> I mean, logs "true" in Firefox, "false" in everyone else.
  934. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> I don't suppose objects are associated with a particular window that we can get, or anything like that?
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  939. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Okay, so for now we want to just remove all instanceof checks from testharness.js.
  940. # [19:31] <AryehGregor> Since the behavior isn't really defined.
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  942. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> Done
  943. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> .
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  951. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> jgraham, regarding r239, why did you remove the e.name === code_or_object check? The spec does require it.
  952. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Just because it makes all the assertions fail in some browsers?
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  955. # [19:50] <wilhelm> jgraham: Yes, will do.
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  960. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> Hmm, every use of assert_throws in DOM Range tests is apparently wrong.
  961. # [19:58] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.65)
  962. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> At least, the ones that don't test DOMExceptions.
  963. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> Which is a minority.
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  967. # [20:02] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Because of sekrit backchannel information from annevk
  968. # [20:02] <jgraham> (that the spec might change)
  969. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> jgraham, more specifically?
  970. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  971. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> To what?
  972. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> The current spec seems sane.
  973. # [20:02] * Quits: jamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-tlfjeynpuxgvdtdr) (Quit: jamesr)
  974. # [20:03] <jgraham> Yeah, I like it
  975. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Saner than what any browser does, anyway.
  976. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Also, I just convinced some people in the Web Apps WG to copy it for their own exception types.
  977. # [20:03] <jgraham> I think it might be closer to what some browser does
  978. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> I think approximately one browser actually implements it correctly.
  979. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> WebKit, perhaps?
  980. # [20:03] <jgraham> Well since annevk is not here, take it up with Ms2ger
  981. # [20:03] <jgraham> :)
  982. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> ?
  983. # [20:04] * Joins: rom- (~user_@rke75-1-81-57-64-145.fbx.proxad.net)
  984. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> I don't think we should actually test it, but only because it would make almost all browsers fail every assert_throws().
  985. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Which is obnoxious clutter.
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  987. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> I agree
  988. # [20:04] * Joins: rom- (~user_@rke75-1-81-57-64-145.fbx.proxad.net)
  989. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> But let's leave it commented out with a note to enable it once the latest version of everyone converges on it.
  990. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> And not even because it's Gecko which fails :)
  991. # [20:05] <jgraham> It would be nice to put it back in if people start to get it right
  992. # [20:05] <jgraham> But I am sure if I do that someone will complain
  993. # [20:06] <jgraham> I already get hate mail for fixing bugs (not really)
  994. # [20:06] <jgraham> (but I did cause confusion by fixing a bug that the Web Performance people were relying on)
  995. # [20:06] <AryehGregor> A harness bug?
  996. # [20:07] <jgraham> Yeah
  997. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> So, WebIDL claims e.name == "DOMException"
  998. # [20:09] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~KaOSoFt@190.254.52.240)
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  1001. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> I don't think anyone does that.
  1002. # [20:10] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  1003. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> We seem to have interop on the .name of a TypeError being "TypeError".
  1004. # [20:10] <jgraham> Is that required by ES5? I forget
  1005. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> But no interop on the .names of DOMExceptions or RangeExceptions.
  1006. # [20:10] <jgraham> Really DOMExceptions should behave much like native Errors
  1007. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> You know, assert_throws() really makes no sense.
  1008. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> The mode where you pass an object doesn't actually do anything except verify that the .name attribute matches.
  1009. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Which is useless for anything but TypeErrors.
  1010. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> DOM Range tests are littered with incorrect usages.
  1011. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Could we make it more useful? Like either allow only a string and special-case the error types we care about, or actually allow the passed object to do something useful?
  1012. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Like "for each property of the passed object, the thrown exception must have that property with the same value"?
  1013. # [20:13] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  1014. # [20:13] <AryehGregor> Also, the error text right now is confusing, because it doesn't actually say what part of the assertion failed.
  1015. # [20:13] <jgraham> Hmm, where does the platform throw non-ES-Errors or non-DOMExceptions?
  1016. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> DOM Range throws RangeExceptions.
  1017. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure IndexedDB throws its own exceptions too.
  1018. # [20:14] <AryehGregor> And maybe others.
  1019. # [20:14] <jgraham> A RangeException isn't an instanceof a DOMException?
  1020. # [20:15] <jgraham> Or is there some basic Exception type?
  1021. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> No
  1022. # [20:15] <jgraham> Oh. Who designed this platform?
  1023. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> How about I kill RangeExceptions?
  1024. # [20:16] <jgraham> Do browsers already support them?
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  1027. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> Gecko does, but I think I can convince sicking :)
  1028. # [20:18] <jgraham> Can you convince him to kill IDBDatabaseException? :)
  1029. # [20:18] <sicking> actually
  1030. # [20:19] <sicking> the DOMException design is horrible, we need to abandon it
  1031. # [20:19] * Joins: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113)
  1032. # [20:19] <jgraham> Which part in particular?
  1033. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> So you agree less classes with that design is good? :)
  1034. # [20:19] <sicking> Ms2ger: no, the opposite
  1035. # [20:20] <sicking> first off DOMExceptions aren't very javascripty
  1036. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> The DOM isn't
  1037. # [20:20] <sicking> we're trying to fix that though
  1038. # [20:20] <sicking> normal javascript exceptions can be checked by just checking .type, or by using instanceof
  1039. # [20:20] <sicking> they have one interface per exception type
  1040. # [20:21] <jgraham> I don't mind many classes if there is some Exception type they all inherit from
  1041. # [20:21] <sicking> jgraham: yup, there should be
  1042. # [20:21] * Parts: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  1043. # [20:21] <sicking> second, the fact that DOMException is code based means that authors have to check both interface name and code number
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  1046. # [20:22] <sicking> unless we somehow manage to never have two specs use overlapping codes. So far we've failed at this
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  1048. # [20:23] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  1049. # [20:23] <sicking> webidl is getting better exception support, we should use it
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  1051. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> Not for existing exceptions
  1052. # [20:23] <jgraham> So the proposal is what? Kep it basically the same but with non-sucky inheritance models?
  1053. # [20:23] <jgraham> *Keep
  1054. # [20:23] <jgraham> Or add stuff to the existing API?
  1055. # [20:23] <sicking> Ms2ger: why not? If we can do it in a backwards compat manner
  1056. # [20:23] <jgraham> We can't really subtract stuff...
  1057. # [20:24] <sicking> I think all we need is .code to remain backwards compat, and "e instanceof DOMException"
  1058. # [20:25] <sicking> so just define new exception interfaces which all inherit from DOMException
  1059. # [20:25] <sicking> and that have .code set to what DOMException uses now
  1060. # [20:26] <sicking> and do the same for other exception interfaces if we think it's needed
  1061. # [20:27] <jgraham> It sounds like it could work
  1062. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> That sounds good.
  1063. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Except, what about if the exception was thrown in another window?
  1064. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> Then instanceof breaks.
  1065. # [20:28] <jgraham> AryehGregor: So I guess I need to fix up testharness.js in the meantime
  1066. # [20:28] <jgraham> any particular API you like?
  1067. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> I guess sicking didn't see: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12295
  1068. # [20:28] <AryehGregor> jgraham, one sec, I'm writing a patch.
  1069. # [20:29] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I doubt I will do it right now :)
  1070. # [20:29] <sicking> AryehGregor: that's already the case. And you can still check .type
  1071. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Hmm, right.
  1072. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> But then .type is the only reliable piece of info, so why bother with the inheritance stuff?
  1073. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> jgraham and Ms2ger, quick proposed patch: http://pastebin.com/TgX0YNyf
  1074. # [20:31] * Parts: zum (~antti@xdsl-83-150-88-4.nebulazone.fi)
  1075. # [20:31] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You have to be sure to check against the interface object in the right global scope
  1076. # [20:32] <jgraham> which is not *usually* a problem
  1077. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> How are you supposed to know what the right global scope is, in general-purpose code?
  1078. # [20:32] <jgraham> Well that is an interesting question
  1079. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> It's not usually a problem in the sense that it will very rarely come up, so nobody will code for it and they'll get inscrutable errors and assume browsers are crazy.
  1080. # [20:32] <jgraham> istr that a goal of ES5 was to make that hard :)
  1081. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> (which is what I did)
  1082. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> (although I'd have figured it out sooner if Firefox matched other browsers here)
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  1084. # [20:34] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I don't think I like that approach
  1085. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> My patch?
  1086. # [20:35] <jgraham> Yeah
  1087. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> The error messages are slightly confusing because they no longer mention the expected interface.
  1088. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> That could be fixed easily, though.
  1089. # [20:35] <jgraham> I think it makes things more magic rather than less
  1090. # [20:35] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1091. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Do you have a proposal for making things less magic without adding lots of verbosity to callers?
  1092. # [20:35] <jgraham> Good question
  1093. # [20:35] * paul_irish is now known as paul_irish_
  1094. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Do you think it's even possible to make things less magic?
  1095. # [20:36] <jgraham> Well sure
  1096. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> Especially if we want to be able to easily switch what we're testing in the future, if the spec for DOMException or such is changed?
  1097. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> E.g., testing .name or .type or something.
  1098. # [20:36] <jgraham> assert_throws_dom("code", exception_obj, func) for example
  1099. # [20:37] <jgraham> like assert_throws("INVALID_REQUEST_ERR", DOMException, func)
  1100. # [20:37] <jgraham> +_dom
  1101. # [20:37] <jgraham> It is more verbose though
  1102. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> How would that work for RangeExceptions?
  1103. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> My approach isn't extensible at all, it's true.
  1104. # [20:38] <jgraham> assert_throws_dom("SOME_CODE", RangeException, func)
  1105. # [20:38] <jgraham> and it neatly solves the global problem by making the caller deal with it
  1106. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  1107. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Now that's a thought.
  1108. # [20:39] * Quits: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-) (Quit: simplicity-)
  1109. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Except, is it actually specced what global the thrown exception should be part of?
  1110. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> If I get a Node object from another window, and call a method on it in this window, is the thrown exception from that window or this one?
  1111. # [20:39] * KaOSoFt is now known as andresbotero
  1112. # [20:39] <jgraham> Oh, I remember running into that too
  1113. # [20:39] <AryehGregor> Come to think of it, this must be why any non-Firefox browsers passed my tests.
  1114. # [20:39] <jgraham> It's all good fun this :)
  1115. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> I guess WebKit throws from the Node's window, and IE from the current window.
  1116. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> So as a design goal, do we want users to be able to easily extend assert_throws() to support their own exceptions without forking the library?
  1117. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> If so, then we should have it accept a callback to determine if the exception is correct.
  1118. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> Then third parties can write their own wrappers that pass in a callback.
  1119. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> But the core library can provide some convenience wrappers for DOM exception types that need to be shared between specs.
  1120. # [20:42] <jgraham> Why do we need a callback
  1121. # [20:42] <jgraham> ?
  1122. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Because the caller might want to verify arbitrary things about the exception.
  1123. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> Since no two specs agree on what properties exceptions have to have.
  1124. # [20:42] <jgraham> No, I don't think that's needed
  1125. # [20:43] <jgraham> I think assert_throws should be about chacking that an exception of the right type was thrown
  1126. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> For what definition of "type"?
  1127. # [20:43] * Quits: xtoph (~xtoph@213.47.185.206)
  1128. # [20:43] <jgraham> If you want to do something more complex, use assert_equals
  1129. # [20:44] <AryehGregor> Then you have to write your own boilerplate try/catch with multiple asserts.
  1130. # [20:44] <jgraham> Interface+code for dom exceptions, object type for ES Exceptions
  1131. # [20:44] <jgraham> Yeah, but only once per exception type or so
  1132. # [20:44] <jgraham> You probably don't need to do that every time you test an exception is thrown
  1133. # [20:45] * Joins: krios (~krios@unaffiliated/krios)
  1134. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> We can't test interface. We could test that all the expected interface members are present and have the right types, I suppose.
  1135. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Anyone want to write a WebIDL parser in JS? :)
  1136. # [20:45] <jgraham> instanceof tests interfaces
  1137. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> Not reliably, because of the cross-window problem.
  1138. # [20:45] <jgraham> at least it tests what I meant when I said interafces
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  1140. # [20:46] <jgraham> The cross-window problem is a problem, I agree
  1141. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> I just removed instanceof checks from testharness.js because it was causing mass spurious test failures in WebKit.
  1142. # [20:46] <jgraham> But the solution is probably to fix the browsers to agree on the right behaviour
  1143. # [20:46] <AryehGregor> In the long term, maybe, but that doesn't help us for the present.
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  1145. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> I agree that testing instanceof is in principle ideal, but I don't think it's practical.
  1146. # [20:47] <jgraham> In the present I would like to keep using the interfaces until people complain louded
  1147. # [20:47] <jgraham> *louder
  1148. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> Unless we can figure out how to work around browser bugs.
  1149. # [20:47] <jgraham> Then maybe have some way to use the string representation
  1150. # [20:47] <AryehGregor> That's not standardized.
  1151. # [20:48] <jgraham> Does it work? If it does then it ought to be standardised
  1152. # [20:48] <jgraham> and is good enough
  1153. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> No, every browser has a different string representation.
  1154. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> My mockup tests that e[code] == myinterface[code] and e.code == myinterface[code]. That actually works reasonably reliably in all browsers.
  1155. # [20:48] * Parts: krios (~krios@unaffiliated/krios)
  1156. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> I don't think we have interop on anything more.
  1157. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> (for DOMException and RangeException)
  1158. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> It's also what assert_throws tests right now for DOMException, right?
  1159. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> Although not RangeException.
  1160. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> The current implementation is totally broken, anyway. The DOMException case generates confusing error messages, and the non-DOMException case makes no sense (object is passed and then only one hardcoded property is tested and this isn't documented anywhere).
  1161. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> Plus also generates confusing error messages.
  1162. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> My proposed patch is backward-compatible, has succinct syntax for the caller, and generates better error messages, plus is already written.
  1163. # [20:52] <jgraham> Nevertheless
  1164. # [20:52] <jgraham> I think it is the wrong approach
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  1166. # [20:52] <jgraham> Since it makes the unerlying problem (the methhod is too magic) worse rather than better
  1167. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> I don't think the method being magic is a problem, and if it is, we can break out the magic parts into a separate convenience function and expose the non-magic parts separately.
  1168. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> What's wrong with the callback idea, then?
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  1170. # [20:54] <jgraham> I also think it might be possible to hack around the frame bug. The stringification of the interface objects is quite standard I expect
  1171. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Hmm, that's a thought.
  1172. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Although it's orthogonal.
  1173. # [20:55] <jgraham> So one can say "pass in the interface object in the frame that generates the caller" and we can look up the same object in the local window
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  1176. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> The string representation actually isn't very standard.
  1177. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> I mean, you can just special-case it.
  1178. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> WebKit does function DOMException() { [native code] }, everyone else is [object DOMException].
  1179. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> I wish there were a better way to get the actual interface object, though.
  1180. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> s/better //
  1181. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> . . . still, that's orthogonal.
  1182. # [20:58] <jgraham> Well that sucks
  1183. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> Insofar as I would like to fix the DOM Range tests so that they actually work, and cannot do that with the current implementation of assert_throws(), what do you suggest I do?
  1184. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> Since you don't want me to special-case RangeException the way DOMException is special-cased.
  1185. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> I mean, look at it this way. If you rewrite it to some generalized form, you're going to have to support old callers anyway.
  1186. # [20:59] <AryehGregor> So is it really a big deal to support old callers using RangeException as well as DOMException?
  1187. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> I'd like to fix the DOM Range tests right now, and I can't without fixing assert_throws() to actually sanely accept non-DOMException inputs.
  1188. # [21:00] <jgraham> For now could you just add RangeException in the most non-invasive way posible whilse I think about it?
  1189. # [21:00] <jgraham> *possib;e
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  1191. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Well, if I'm allowed to refactor assert_throws() in unrelated ways at the same time to improve its error reporting, that would be my patch minus the TypeError stuff. :)
  1192. # [21:01] <jgraham> Sure, but don't be too surprised if I change it again :)
  1193. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> As long as you don't break back-compat without telling me.
  1194. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Also, it just occurred to me:
  1195. # [21:02] * Joins: cying_ (~cying@173.13.176.101)
  1196. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> In most cases, the exception will actually be from the current window.
  1197. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> So we can test that if e instanceof Object, e instanceof DOMException (or whatever) also.
  1198. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Like assert(e instanceof DOMException || !(e instanceof Object), ...)
  1199. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Not perfect, but better than nothing.
  1200. # [21:03] <jgraham> Maybe
  1201. # [21:03] <jgraham> It is times like these that I hate the CaJa people
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  1206. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> CaJa?
  1207. # [21:07] <jgraham> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caja_project
  1208. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> . . . why do you hate them?
  1209. # [21:08] <jgraham> They were the main drivers behind requirments on it being impossible to get at the global object
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  1211. # [21:08] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  1212. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> According to that page, they restrict themselves to a subset of JS anyway, so why do they care? They can just leave out the way to get at the global object.
  1213. # [21:09] * Parts: tw2113 (~tw2113@fedora/tw2113) ("There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and BSD. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.")
  1214. # [21:09] <jgraham> I don't really recall
  1215. # [21:09] <jgraham> Possibly they wanted the main lanuage to enforce more of their invariants for them
  1216. # [21:10] <jgraham> *language
  1217. # [21:10] <jgraham> Or maybe it is hard to enforce by restricting features
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  1219. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Oh . . . Firefox breaks on the assumption that it will be an instanceof Object/DOMException on the same windows.
  1220. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
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  1222. # [21:14] <gsnedders> Basically nothing around the existance of multiple globals is speced
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  1226. # [21:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: Check [[Class]] of the exception object?
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  1232. # [21:23] <AryehGregor> jgraham, okay, pushed.
  1233. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Tell me if you want to break it.
  1234. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> (so I can fix the DOM Range tests)
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  1238. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> Ack.
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  1241. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, you know that the RangeException removal breaks compat, right?
  1242. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> And tests?
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  1244. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> What's the reasoning for that?
  1245. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> I mean, granted that it shouldn't have existed in the first place, but it does, and everyone implements it.
  1246. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> I think it's worth trying to kill it
  1247. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Why? There are vastly more horrible things we don't bother trying to kill.
  1248. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Do you think you have implementer buy-in?
  1249. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> I really don't see it as worth it.
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  1255. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, we should at least put an XXX in the spec.
  1256. # [21:42] * Quits: jdavenport (~jdavenpor@027cc02f.bb.sky.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  1257. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> If you want to keep it this way, though, I'll update the tests.
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  1261. # [21:45] <sicking> Ms2ger, AryehGregor: I think a better solution is to create two new exceptions which both inherit from RangeException. This would follow the better new WebIDL pattern and be backwards compatible
  1262. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> As far as my tests go, that would be the same as the status quo ante, and I'm fine with it.
  1263. # [21:46] <sicking> we *might* even be able to get away with making the new exceptions not inherit RangeException or have .code, but that would break backwards compat
  1264. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Although that pattern does break confusingly in the presence of multiple globals.
  1265. # [21:46] <sicking> AryehGregor: no more or less than current behavior
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  1269. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Well, with the current behavior the only way to more-or-less reliably test that it's the right error code is something like e.code == e.INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR, which happens to sidestep the interface issue.
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  1271. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Your way would encourage authors to do e instanceof InvalidNodeTypeException or whatever the case may be, which will break in weird corner cases.
  1272. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Currently there's no real reason to do e instanceof RangeException, it's not realistically going to pass e.code == e.INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR otherwise.
  1273. # [21:48] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: And what do you do about the Object/Array case?
  1274. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, what?
  1275. # [21:49] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: {} instanceof otherglobal.Object returns false
  1276. # [21:49] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: This behaviour is consistent with everything in JS varying on globals
  1277. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> On an unrelated note: I guess there's no way in hg to just throw away my local commits, like git rebase --hard some_commit && git pull?
  1278. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, well, yeah. So I'm saying instanceof is broken and we shouldn't encourage authors to rely on it.
  1279. # [21:50] <sicking> AryehGregor: Actually, right now you should both check |e instanceof DOMException && e.code = e.INVALID_...|
  1280. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> sicking, you should, but the e instanceof DOMException part is superfluous in practice.
  1281. # [21:50] <sicking> AryehGregor: but we don't need to encourage people to use instanceof. We can just tell them to use .type
  1282. # [21:50] <sicking> AryehGregor: it's not, there are multiple exception types floating around
  1283. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but how many of them have an error code called INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR?
  1284. # [21:51] <sicking> AryehGregor: SVGException, RangeException, DOMException, I'm sure there are more
  1285. # [21:51] <sicking> hmm...
  1286. # [21:51] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: But it's not broken, they're fundementally different objects
  1287. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> If authors should rely on .type, why define the extra interfaces at all?
  1288. # [21:51] <sicking> that is a good point actually
  1289. # [21:51] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Someone could've mutated the object in one global scope but not another
  1290. # [21:51] <sicking> AryehGregor: to follow javascript patterns
  1291. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess that's a fair reason.
  1292. # [21:52] <sicking> AryehGregor: not all code crosses globals
  1293. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Yeah, very little does, which is why the bug will be extremely confusing when it happens.
  1294. # [21:52] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The point of instanceof is to tell whether something is in the prototype chain, and hence any property that exists on an object that instanceof returns true for exists on that object. You're violating that semantic with the behaviour you want.
  1295. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> Okay, so is there any way in hg to just throw out some local commits, or do I have to reclone?
  1296. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I didn't say I wanted it to behave differently, I just said authors should avoid it.
  1297. # [21:53] <sicking> i agree that instanceof is problematic. But the way we're heading now is bad too. And checking .type seems to solve all problems
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  1299. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Yeah, a .type property would be great if everyone implemented it.
  1300. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Of course, so would a .name property, or any other property, if everyone implemented it consistently . . .
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  1302. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> But I'm fine with ES5 compat.
  1303. # [21:53] <sicking> err..
  1304. # [21:53] <sicking> sorry, it's called .name actually
  1305. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  1306. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Well, that's convenient, isn't it?
  1307. # [21:53] <sicking> i don't know why i keep thinking it's .type
  1308. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> That's what the spec already says, then.
  1309. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Other than the extra interfaces.
  1310. # [21:54] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4172753/how-to-get-rid-of-some-changeset-in-hg
  1311. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> sicking, what do you think about Ms2ger's change to get rid of RangeException entirely? Do you think Gecko would do that?
  1312. # [21:54] <sicking> AryehGregor: what does the spec say .name should be on current exceptions?
  1313. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> sicking, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#dom-domexception-name
  1314. # [21:55] <sicking> AryehGregor: i'd be fine with trying to get rid of RangeException, but only if it's replaced with something better
  1315. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Well, actually that conflicts, right?
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  1317. # [21:55] <sicking> AryehGregor: so "DOMException" then?
  1318. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> Because the ES way would have .name be IndexSizeErrException or something?
  1319. # [21:55] <sicking> AryehGregor: that's not what i'm proposing
  1320. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> No, like "INDEX_SIZE_ERR".
  1321. # [21:55] <sicking> no
  1322. # [21:56] <sicking> IndexSizeException is what i'd propose
  1323. # [21:56] <sicking> all exceptions are errors, no need to include "Err"
  1324. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Okay, so you're proposing that browsers change the meaning of .name on DOMException? Because it already exists and has a different value from that.
  1325. # [21:57] <sicking> AryehGregor: yup, that's what i'm proposing
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  1327. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Well, no two browsers currently agree on the meaning of .name for DOMException, so I guess it's not too bad . . .
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  1332. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Chrome gives "HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR", Gecko gives "NS_ERROR_DOM_HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR", Opera gives "Error", IE gives undefined.
  1333. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> It makes me a bit less enthusiastic about the proposal.
  1334. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yeah, so as I expected, it's not supported. Yay hg, as usual.
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  1336. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> So what I have to do is wipe out the whole repo and make a new one. That's so much better than in git, where the commits would be accessible for the next few weeks until garbage-collected in case I wanted them.
  1337. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> And of course, the clone command also changes hgrc, and possibly other things that I'm not aware of.
  1338. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Seems like there's no good bridge for git users who are forced to use Mercurial, only the other way around.
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  1342. # [22:11] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I think you can do waht you want with mq but that is deep magic to me
  1343. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> mq is a separate queue on top of hg, not a way of managing hg commits, right?
  1344. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> So it would only work if I didn't actually commit locally yet?
  1345. # [22:13] <Philip`> There's a way to convert hg commits into mq patches, so you can edit them and re-commit them
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  1347. # [22:14] <Philip`> (See hg qimport --help)
  1348. # [22:14] <Philip`> (I think)
  1349. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Personally, I'm still going to go with hating hg and wishing I could use git.
  1350. # [22:16] <jgraham> I think in this case git is better
  1351. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> I have yet to find any nontrivial case where I consider hg better.
  1352. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> And I've been using it for a few months now.
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  1354. # [22:17] <jgraham> In general I have come over to the idea that git's more mutable history is better for team work than mercurial's desire to preserve everything
  1355. # [22:18] * Philip` likes Hg because it works better in trivial cases, and almost everything he does is trivial cases
  1356. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> I don't find it works better in trivial cases.
  1357. # [22:18] <jgraham> because the commits that you want to make locally are not usually the same as the ones you eant to share
  1358. # [22:18] <jgraham> *want
  1359. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Well, I should say that git has sometimes gotten me into some crazy state where I have no idea what it's doing, but on the other hand, hg has eaten my data, so it's more than equal.
  1360. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> git is certainly harder to understand.
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  1363. # [22:21] <jgraham> I wonder how easy it is to delete commits using the internal api
  1364. # [22:21] <jgraham> The mercurial internal API turns out to be quite easy to understand
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  1386. # [22:56] <jamesr> heycam: yt?
  1387. # [22:58] * Joins: david_carlisle (~chatzilla@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1388. # [22:58] <heycam> hi jamesr
  1389. # [22:59] <jamesr> are you in the web perf call or planning to dial in to the second half?
  1390. # [22:59] * Quits: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) (Quit: Reading http://davidwalsh.name)
  1391. # [22:59] <heycam> I'm going to dial in for the second half
  1392. # [22:59] <jamesr> k, me too. i want to propose that we try to keep technical discussions on the mailing list and not the telecon
  1393. # [22:59] <jamesr> but i'm not sure how that will go over
  1394. # [22:59] <jamesr> what's your preference?
  1395. # [22:59] <heycam> yes, I agree with that
  1396. # [23:01] <heycam> I also agree I'm not sure how it will go over :)
  1397. # [23:01] <heycam> there didn't seem to be too much push back when it was mentioned at the f2f
  1398. # [23:01] <jamesr> philippe seemed skeptical later on in email
  1399. # [23:01] <heycam> I guess it is up to the chairs, anyway
  1400. # [23:02] * Quits: msucan (~robod@109.96.201.56) (Quit: .)
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  1402. # [23:02] <heycam> I think we may need to demonstrate that we can make good progress without having technical discussion on the calls
  1403. # [23:02] <jamesr> yeah
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  1405. # [23:02] <heycam> i.e. drive mailing list discussion of issues
  1406. # [23:02] <jamesr> guess the best thing is to lead by example
  1407. # [23:02] <heycam> yep
  1408. # [23:02] <Hixie> if you just don't call in... :-)
  1409. # [23:02] <heycam> :)
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  1413. # [23:12] <jgraham> technical discussion in mail ++
  1414. # [23:14] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1415. # [23:14] <jgraham> (also I very occasionally read Web Perf. mail and I can't do that if it is hidden away)
  1416. # [23:14] <jgraham> (as telecon)
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  1419. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> Hmm, Opera has non-standard default styles for <blockquote>.
  1420. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> I should write some tests for HTML5's Rendering section.
  1421. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> That would be useful.
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  1425. # [23:32] <jamesr> heycam: i'd be a lot happier if this discussion started on the mailing list
  1426. # [23:32] <jamesr> and/or ended there
  1427. # [23:32] <jamesr> i've just zoned uot
  1428. # [23:32] <heycam> me too. this isn't being minuted very well either.
  1429. # [23:33] <AryehGregor> CSS question: why does a <br> immediately after a <div> take effect, while one immediately before a <div> does not? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/962
  1430. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> Is this specced somewhere? IIRC, CSS doesn't have too much to say about <br>.
  1431. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> (in that link, there's extra whitespace between "Foo" and "Bar", but not "Bar" and "Baz", in the browsers I tested in)
  1432. # [23:35] * AryehGregor looks in CSS 2.1
  1433. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> I think it's because of whitespace collapsing.
  1434. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> That migh not make sense.
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  1436. # [23:35] <jamesr> here we go again
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  1438. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> "Line boxes that contain no text, no preserved white space, no inline elements with non-zero margins, padding, or borders, and no other in-flow content (such as images, inline blocks or inline tables), and do not end with a preserved newline must be treated as zero-height line boxes for the purposes of determining the positions of any elements inside of them, and must be treated as not existing for any other purpose."
  1439. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> That's probably it, somehow.
  1440. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Although I don't know how.
  1441. # [23:37] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.58.132) (Quit: nn)
  1442. # [23:38] * eric_carlson is now known as ericc|away
  1443. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> So it seems like the last <br> in a block box is eaten, but not the first.
  1444. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's it. The first <br> creates an empty linebox, but the linebreak is preserved (due to being generated by a <br>). The second <br>'s linebreak, though, is on the same line as "Bar". The third line box which would otherwise be created has no preserved whitespace, so it's killed.
  1445. # [23:40] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: I've always see it as <br> moves the insertion point from the current location to the next line (but takes up no space). So "text<br><div></div>" would move the insertion point from end of "text" to a new line, and the div would be inserted there. Since <br> takes up no space, the div remains on that new line. However, with "<div></div><br>text", the <br> is moved onto the next line automatically because <div> is a block element. The
  1446. # [23:40] <bfrohs> n, it adds an additional lines... and the text follows that.
  1447. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, ah -- that must be it.
  1448. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> It's kind of weird. You wouldn't think of a newline as being part of any line box at all, really.
  1449. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  1450. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Np.
  1451. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Characters aren't allowed to exist outside of lineboxes, and \A is a character.
  1452. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> bfrohs, also makes sense, but not really precise in the sense of CSS 2.1.
  1453. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Anyway, either way is good enough for me.
  1454. # [23:42] <bfrohs> AryehGregor: Yeah, just how I've always made sense out of it in my head based on what browsers actually do ;)
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  1460. # [23:50] <jamesr> heycam: do you use anolis?
  1461. # [23:51] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@smtp.forewordinternal.com)
  1462. # [23:51] <heycam> jamesr, I do not, but many other people here do
  1463. # [23:51] <heycam> would you rather switch to that from my custom xslt thingo?
  1464. # [23:51] <jamesr> yeah, or teach me how your xslt thing works
  1465. # [23:51] <heycam> either way is fine with me
  1466. # [23:52] <heycam> as long as the output looks nice :)
  1467. # [23:53] <heycam> if you are more familiar with anolis I'm happy to switch to that
  1468. # [23:53] <jamesr> k, then i'll try to construct a version of your most recent draft minus the native animation stuff, get it into a format anolis likes, and then push that to HG once i figure out how that works
  1469. # [23:53] <jamesr> is the idea we'd check in the input and output to HG?
  1470. # [23:53] <heycam> great, thanks!
  1471. # [23:53] <heycam> I think so, so that we can view the final form document on http://dvcs.w3.org/
  1472. # [23:55] <heycam> jamesr, btw we'll probably be making some changes to align with the webkit version: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647517 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647518
  1473. # [23:58] <jamesr> ah ok
  1474. # [23:59] <jamesr> i could add in my text for those too
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  1476. # Session Close: Thu Apr 28 00:00:00 2011

The end :)