/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-04-28 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 28 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <heycam> yeah, I think that's fine
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# [00:16] <AryehGregor> Plaintext e-mail has RTL in visual order, not logical? Really?
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# [00:17] <TabAtkins> Plaintext doesn't mean "see the bytes in order". It just means no styling. Bidi algorithms aren't styling.
# [00:18] <AryehGregor> I guess I have to test.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> Testing turned out to be too tiresome, what with encoding issues, so I'll live in ignorance.
# [00:21] <AryehGregor> There's such a thing as encoding RTL in visual order, although it makes no sense if you have to do line breaking. I just saw someone say that the convention for plaintext e-mail is visual rather than logical.
# [00:22] <AryehGregor> I mean, plaintext e-mail does predate the Unicode RTL algorithm by a wide margin.
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> Am I crazy, or is wikipedia completely unstyled now?
# [00:23] <AryehGregor> You're crazy.
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Hm.
# [00:23] <AryehGregor> (if it persists, #wikimedia-tech)
# [00:23] <TabAtkins> Let's check another browser.
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# [00:26] <TabAtkins> Okay, my computer just went crazy and lost my network drive.
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# [00:50] <TabAtkins> My computer has gone totally crazy. Time to reboot, I guess.
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# [01:19] <TabAtkins> ...huh. I'm not sure how this happened, but somehow an unsaved file persisted in my text editor across two reboots.
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# [01:30] <TabAtkins> People come up with the craziest hacks. I've got an email from somebody who is trying to avoid preloading all their slide images individually by first compiling them all into a video, one slide per frame, then drawing the video to <canvas> to extract the images back out.
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# [01:59] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, madness. you should start a blog, html5fail or something like that :>
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# [04:42] <MikeSmith> abarth: congrats on the RFC publication
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# [07:37] <abarth> MikeSmith: thanks!
# [07:40] <MikeSmith> abarth: btw, tools.ietf.org doesn't seem to have the draft-abarth-url-01 yet
# [07:40] <abarth> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-url-01
# [07:40] <abarth> works for me
# [07:40] <MikeSmith> ah
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> I was going to http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-url-00
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> and expecting it to have an 01 link there
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> after Versions:
# [07:41] <abarth> i see the 01 link
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> ah dammit
# [07:41] <MikeSmith> caching
# [07:42] <MikeSmith> yeah, wfm now too
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# [07:44] <MikeSmith> abarth: btw, I don't quite know what to make of Julian's comment about the draft not "having any resemblance to the kind of document the WG should deliver"
# [07:44] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2011Apr/0059.html
# [07:45] <MikeSmith> I've not gotten the impression that others in the IRI group see it that way
# [07:45] <abarth> he doesn't like the document because it's different from previous specs
# [07:45] <abarth> it's not clear anyone besides browsers should care about this document
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# [07:46] <MikeSmith> well, both those things are somewhat true about a lot of recent specs
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# [07:47] <MikeSmith> I think the answer to the last one is, applications that what to interoperate with browser behavior should do know what browsers do, and do it too
# [07:47] <MikeSmith> *want to interoperate
# [07:47] <abarth> that's true
# [07:47] <abarth> my plan is to just continue working on the doc
# [07:47] <MikeSmith> good
# [07:48] <abarth> i think there's a good chance that the working group won't like it in the end
# [07:48] <abarth> or it will get knocked down to informational
# [07:48] <abarth> or whatever
# [07:48] <abarth> but that's all fine
# [07:48] <abarth> the important part is to get it written down and get folks to improve their interoperability
# [07:48] <MikeSmith> yes
# [07:49] <MikeSmith> to and to have something that the HTML5 spec can reference
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# [07:57] <Hixie> wget should care about this document
# [07:58] <Hixie> google's crawler should care about this document
# [07:58] <Hixie> wysiwyg editors should care about this document
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# [09:53] <MikeSmith> touch events landed in mozilla central?
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> does it need be enabled through a compile flag, or is it enabled by default?
# [09:54] <MikeSmith> hmm, user pref?
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# [10:24] <zcorpan> should we add ownerWindow to everything so that we can do foo instanceof foo.ownerWindow.Bar ?
# [10:26] <zcorpan> or call it defaultView to match up with document.defaultView
# [10:26] <jgraham> zcorpan: That sounds mildly hideous
# [10:27] <zcorpan> have a better suggestion? :)
# [10:28] * jgraham wonders if the model driven views people have thought of using attributes and elements for their templating rather than {{foo}}
# [10:29] <jgraham> zcorpan: Realise it is an edge case you only hit when running tests and move on?
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# [10:29] <hsivonen> was the model-driven views thing a plan for a JS lib or for a Chrome feature_
# [10:29] <hsivonen> ?
# [10:29] <jgraham> (as gsnedders pointed out it wouldn't help for ES builtins)
# [10:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: AIUI it is a plan for a platform feature
# [10:30] <jgraham> that has been demoed as a js lib
# [10:30] <zcorpan> jgraham: i like that suggestion
# [10:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: so why does it need to be a platform feature rather than a JS lib?
# [10:30] <MikeSmith> jgraham: pimpmyspec is generating 2010 in the W3C copyright
# [10:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: "FAQ item also coming for this.
# [10:31] <jgraham> "
# [10:31] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Umm, does that have anything to do with me? Where does it get that year from?
# [10:31] <MikeSmith> from anolis
# [10:31] <MikeSmith> doesn't it?
# [10:32] <MikeSmith> oh wait
# [10:32] <jgraham> No idea
# [10:32] <MikeSmith> maybe my fault
# [10:32] <jgraham> I just provide the hosting :p
# [10:32] <MikeSmith> probably I have to change it in the boilerplate
# [10:36] <othermaciej> hsivonen: the guy working on it thinks it should be a Web platform feature
# [10:37] <othermaciej> not all folks in the WebKit community are necessarily in tune with his thinking
# [10:37] <othermaciej> I asked him what is wrong with leaving it a library and he had a very short list of things that couldn't be made efficient from pure JS/DOM code
# [10:37] <othermaciej> and I said, "why not just make a modest platform enhancement to fix those few things, so all the existing JS library templating systems can benefit"
# [10:38] <othermaciej> he didn't really have a good argument except for his belief that his JS templating library that he just invented is better than all others ever written
# [10:40] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I was guessing it was something like that. :-(
# [10:41] <othermaciej> well, if other folks in the relevant standards body express similar views, then it will likely influence the direction of what gets standardized and/or implemented
# [10:41] <jgraham> I haven't studied it in detail but it seems like something that is becoming increangly common, but might be a world of pain to implement in the browser
# [10:42] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I even told him the parable of querySelector() and how it seems more important to make a feature that can be smoothly adopted by JS libs than one that aims to replace them through direct use
# [10:42] <othermaciej> there's also the fact that this is similar to but not quite the same as XBL
# [10:42] <othermaciej> I wasn't clear on why it needs to be separate
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# [10:43] <jgraham> Like all the special casing they seem to want for their stuff is freaking me out a bit
# [10:45] <jgraham> Oh and they want magic comments :(
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# [11:05] <othermaciej> ok, replied to it
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# [11:27] <zcorpan> does transitioning between height:0 and height:auto work yet?
# [11:29] <jgraham> I don't think so
# [11:29] <jgraham> It really needs to though
# [11:30] <zcorpan> yeah. truly annoying
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# [11:31] <zcorpan> that's basically the only thing i want to transition
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# [11:31] <zcorpan> well that and opacity
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# [13:04] <hsivonen> Has the Chrome team yet announced which Chrome release train will drop H.264?
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# [14:29] <mpilgrim> hsivonen: no. last i heard, google was still "working with partners" and get them to convert to webm or something
# [14:30] <mpilgrim> not sure which partners, and i probably couldn't tell you even if i was in the loop, which i'm not
# [14:31] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: I see. Thanks.
# [14:31] <mpilgrim> but it's still in the cards, AFAIK
# [14:31] <mpilgrim> "real soon now" :)
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# [14:33] <jgraham> I guess I was naive to assume it already happened months ago
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# [14:34] <hsivonen> It seems to me that in Finland, WebM-enabled browser have already surpassed H.264-enabled browsers in StatCounter usage share, but the numbers would be more impressive if Chrome didn't count towards both
# [14:34] <hsivonen> *browsers
# [14:35] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: really? that's pretty surprising
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# [14:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Safari 3.1 or higher plus IE9: 9%
# [14:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Opera 10.6 or higher plus Firefox 4: 15%
# [14:37] <mpilgrim> my dog is sleeping on my foot
# [14:37] <mpilgrim> and now my foot is asleep
# [14:37] <mpilgrim> the circle of life
# [14:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: excludes phone browsers but includes iPad, AFAICT
# [14:38] <mpilgrim> chrome 12.0.742.9 dev still supports H.264, that's the latest version i have
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# [14:42] <hsivonen> I'm now at the point with about:blank where I can't trust test cases because getElementsByTagName and getElementById stopped working
# [14:42] <jgraham> ?
# [14:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have no idea, either
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> mpilgrim: I wishes I had a dog that falls asleep on my foot
# [14:46] <MikeSmith> I want a french bulldog that slobbers all over everything
# [14:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I am struggling with this case of nested figure/figcaption and determining if the have text content that makes img alt required
# [14:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: putting the flags on the stack node didn't help?
# [14:49] <mpilgrim> i have a 48 lb. beagle/basset named Beauregard who slobbers all over everything
# [14:49] <mpilgrim> he's awesome
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# [14:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it helps but when I am in the characters method, I don't know how to check for text nodes only within the nested figure/figcaption, rather than all the way up through all the figure/figcaption in the tree
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# [14:51] <MikeSmith> mpilgrim: if I had a 48 lb dog in my apartment in tokyo, I would have little room left to move around
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> the biggest living thing I've had staying in my apartment is Anne
# [14:52] <MikeSmith> who's just slightly more than 48 lb.
# [14:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you need to walk up the stack and flip flags on all the figcaptions or figures on the stack if I've understood the requirements right
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> ok
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> dammit
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> I thought that's what you were going to say
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> this thing is a PITA man
# [14:53] <MikeSmith> fwiw, I knew I hadn't addressed the nested case when I sent you the patch for review
# [14:54] <MikeSmith> I just think the nested case if pathological
# [14:54] <MikeSmith> but oh well
# [14:55] <MikeSmith> it's not unique in that regard
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# [15:17] <MikeSmith> wilhelm_: ping
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# [15:19] <wilhelm_> MikeSmith: Pong.
# [15:20] <MikeSmith> wilhelm_: are you in Sweden or in Oslo?
# [15:21] <MikeSmith> I'm trying to figure out when would be the best time to visit to talk to you all about testing stuff
# [15:22] <MikeSmith> and I can go to Oslo if needed, but going to Linköping would be easier
# [15:23] <wilhelm_> MikeSmith: Oslo.
# [15:23] <wilhelm_> Linkøping is in the neighbourhood, though. Doesn't matter much to me. (c:
# [15:23] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [15:23] <MikeSmith> you cats can just al come and visit me
# [15:23] <MikeSmith> ok
# [15:23] <wilhelm_> Oh, yes. An excuse to come to Japan? (c;
# [15:24] <MikeSmith> yeah man
# [15:24] <MikeSmith> come here and sweat the pounds away during the summer time
# [15:25] <gsnedders> Talk about a hard sell.
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> wilhelm_: basically, what I want to do is this summer is either get some kind of common testing framework set up -- cross-WG/ cross-spec -- or…
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> the "or…" part I dunno
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> Philippe will kick my ass if we don't manage to get something set up
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> or maybe by that time I'll be working somewhere else anyway
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> wilhelm_: gsnedders and jgraham have been a big help so far in getting some useful stuff set up
# [15:29] <MikeSmith> so would really be great to see if we can get their help and yours on expanding things a bit further
# [15:29] <MikeSmith> Peter Lins has also been doing great stuff with getting test automation set up for CSS specs
# [15:30] <MikeSmith> so it would also make a lot of sense to take a look at what he's done and see if we can generalize it
# [15:30] <MikeSmith> or whatever the proper term is
# [15:32] <wilhelm_> MikeSmith: Sounds great.
# [15:34] <MikeSmith> wilhelm_: OK, so please get approval for you and jgraham and gsnedders to fly to Tokyo this summer for a visit
# [15:34] <MikeSmith> and also zcorpan
# [15:35] <jgraham> Heh
# [15:35] <MikeSmith> I'll make some arrangements for accomodations
# [15:35] <zcorpan> wait what?
# [15:35] <MikeSmith> heh
# [15:36] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you are coming to Tokyo!
# [15:36] <zcorpan> oh!
# [15:36] <zcorpan> nice!
# [15:36] <MikeSmith> yes
# [15:36] <MikeSmith> thanks to wilhelm_
# [15:36] <MikeSmith> we gonna have a great time
# [15:37] <zcorpan> how are we gonna fit in your apartment if you can't fit a dog?
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# [15:37] <MikeSmith> you dudes are going to have to all curl up
# [15:37] <MikeSmith> snuggle
# [15:38] * jgraham doesn't like this plan much now
# [15:38] <MikeSmith> or we can sleep in the park
# [15:38] <MikeSmith> it'll be like a camping trip
# [15:39] <MikeSmith> is gsnedders planning to go to Linköping this summer?
# [15:40] <jgraham> No, apparently
# [15:40] <jgraham> Or at least not for much of the summer
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> well, that sucks
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> what the hell is he doing that's so important?
# [15:42] * zcorpan has 5 open bugs on html-differences, all seem trivial
# [15:44] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: glad to see you closed out a bunch of them a couple weeks back
# [15:44] <MikeSmith> those other ones
# [15:45] <MikeSmith> so, thanks for that
# [15:46] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Sex, drugs, rock and roll.
# [15:47] <MikeSmith> word.
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# [15:47] <froggy> Hello
# [15:47] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: tl;dr version: I'll be in Oslo 15th–30th June, and then Göteborg till 4th July. I'll probably also be in Oslo near the end of the summer.
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# [15:48] <MikeSmith> huh?
# [15:48] <jgraham> gsnedders: Liquorice is not a drug
# [15:48] <MikeSmith> why Göteborg ?
# [15:49] <MikeSmith> will jgraham and zcorpan and wilhelm_ be in Göteborg then too?
# [15:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: huh?
# [15:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, duh
# [15:49] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: btw, in place of "sex", you need to "nastiness"
# [15:49] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Iron Maiden are playing. I have ticket from when I planned to be in Lkpg over the summer.
# [15:49] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10036 - should i remove the pointer to public-html-comments altogether?
# [15:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I will be in England
# [15:50] <jgraham> When gsnedders is in Göteborg
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# [15:50] <zcorpan> and i may be in one of Örebro, Linköping or Göteborg
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# [15:50] <jgraham> Well I might not be in England
# [15:51] <jgraham> But I won't be in Göteborg
# [15:51] <gsnedders> But you will be in !Lkpg
# [15:51] <MikeSmith> seeing Iron Maiden perform live trumps everything
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# [15:51] <MikeSmith> no joke
# [15:52] <zcorpan> >> !Lkpg
# [15:52] <zcorpan> false
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# [15:52] <MikeSmith> Bruce Dickison is a god walking the earth
# [15:52] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: There's a slight temptation to just see them here instead, but the SCEE is a terrible venue.
# [15:53] <jgraham> zcorpan right shifted by !Lkpg gives false?
# [15:53] <jgraham> What kind of messed up type system do you have?
# [15:53] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: about bug 10036
# [15:53] <MikeSmith> I don't know what t suggest
# [15:54] <MikeSmith> other than, "use your discrection"
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# [15:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham: making it difficult for me
# [15:56] <MikeSmith> I am personally very happy to be in the same place as you all at the same time
# [15:56] <MikeSmith> …
# [15:56] <gsnedders> :D
# [15:56] <MikeSmith> if we can find a place and time
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# [15:56] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Are you still limited to May, or what's the plan now?
# [15:57] <MikeSmith> I have no limits
# [15:58] <MikeSmith> other than, I may have to pay the flight costs from my own pocket
# [15:58] <gsnedders> Ow.
# [15:58] <MikeSmith> no
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# [15:58] <MikeSmith> I am happy to do that if we can actually get together f2f and talk
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# [16:06] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: From my POV anytime apart from the above dates (or over them, for that matter, but given those specific locations) and the few days following them WFM.
# [16:08] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: "above dates" = what?
# [16:09] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: 14:44 < gsnedders> MikeSmith: tl;dr version: I'll be in Oslo 15th–30th June, and then Göteborg till 4th July.
# [16:11] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Of course, if wilhelm_ gets us all to Tokyo, all the better :P
# [16:11] <MikeSmith> no joke
# [16:12] <MikeSmith> youse should all just come to Tokyo for a couple weeks
# [16:12] <MikeSmith> you will learn something
# [16:13] <jgraham> How to survive an earthquake?
# [16:14] <gsnedders> How to train your dragon?
# [16:14] <MikeSmith> heh
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# [16:16] <MikeSmith> anyway, wring i Japan, you can focus on developing products according to actual paying-customer requiremenrts (rather than vague notions about end-users needs)
# [16:17] <gsnedders> Customers? Pff.
# [16:18] <MikeSmith> exactley
# [16:18] <MikeSmith> let them eat cake
# [16:18] <wilhelm_> Mm. Cake.
# [16:19] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: You know, saying that the week after Portal 2 came out…
# [16:19] <bfrohs> The cake is a lie.
# [16:19] <Philip`> That game's got almost nothing to do with cake :-(
# [16:20] <zcorpan> Zarro Boogs found.
# [16:20] <zcorpan> w00t
# [16:20] <jgraham> Zarro Cake also
# [16:20] <jgraham> :(
# [16:21] <zcorpan> mmm, cake. reminds me, time to stop working, make coffee, wake up wife and eat cake
# [16:21] <jgraham> I take it she is working quite strange hours?
# [16:22] <zcorpan> she's a baker
# [16:22] <jgraham> Otherwise it sounds a bit like Marie Anoinette
# [16:22] <jgraham> Well yes, I know
# [16:22] <zcorpan> not so strange hours if you're a baker :)
# [16:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Better than sounding like Othello, though
# [16:23] <jgraham> zcorpan: Fair enough
# [16:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: Get back to work!
# [16:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yeah, true, I have an exam tomorrow.
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# [16:26] <gsnedders> jgraham: But I had to go and get a copy of Still Alive
# [16:26] <Philip`> Tomorrow morning, or do you still have plenty of time?
# [16:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: 9:30 tomorrow morning
# [16:27] <Philip`> Ah, not so much then
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# [16:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Also: Portal has *plenty* to do with cake. GLaDOS keeps promising me some. :'(
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# [16:36] <Philip`> But Portal 2 doesn't, because Valve are better at moving on from tired memes than the rest of the internet is :-p
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# [16:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: I have exams. I am avoiding playing Portal 2 until at least tomorrow afternoon. :P
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# [16:39] <Philip`> Pfft, you could start it now and finish it before going to bed
# [16:39] <gsnedders> Philip`: I HAVE AN EXAM AT 9:30 TOMORROW MORNING. GO AWAY.
# [16:41] <Philip`> (Might not have enough time for the co-op, though)
# [16:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: YOU HAVE AN EXAM AT 9:30 TOMORROW MORNING. GO AWAY.
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# [17:49] <erlehmann> interesting idea: don't load full image information when scaling the image down. implementors, does something like this already exist? <http://freigeist.org/2011/04/28/interlaced-images-for-dynamic-image-sizes>
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# [17:54] <Philip`> erlehmann: That seems non-ideal for quality, since it's effectively nearest-neighbour filtering
# [17:57] <erlehmann> Philip`, it is more about bandwith anyway, i did not write that article. i suggest you comment there, if you think the idea is bogus – otherwise the poor soul might just implement it. ;)
# [17:57] <bfrohs> On that note, what about sending a width and/or height header when fetching an image?
# [17:57] <TabAtkins> Philip`: That's not necessarily true. You can use better interpolation methods than NN.
# [17:58] <erlehmann> bfrohs, requires massive infrastructure change. range requests exist.
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# [18:00] <Philip`> TabAtkins: Not when using interlaced formats, since the point of interlacing is you receive one source pixel per NxN block, I think
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Yes, I understand, but that's roughly identical to scaling up an image. We can and do perform more attractive scaling than NN.
# [18:01] <Philip`> (Presumably progressive JPEG is different though, and not interlacing in image space)
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> Oh, hm, wait, you're right.
# [18:01] <TabAtkins> Never mind.
# [18:02] <Philip`> I mean that if the browser has a whole 2x2 block it can use nice filtering to scale it to 1 pixel on the display, but the interlaced format only gives you one pixel so you have no choice
# [18:02] <TabAtkins> I wasn't thinking correctly - when the iamge is smaller than normal and you just use enough of the interlaced data to fill the pixels you need, yeah, that's NN-based scale-down.
# [18:03] <TabAtkins> I was caught on the idea that you can display a full-size image progressively with more attractive scaling than NN.
# [18:03] <TabAtkins> Which is effectively a scale-up.
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# [18:38] <zewt> it's effectively nearest-neighbor with PNG, but it's more useful with JPEG, where reading fewer scans effectively just lowers the JPEG compression quality
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# [18:57] <Workshiva> So who enjoys reading the es5 spec?
# [18:58] <bfrohs> No one?
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# [18:58] <Workshiva> I'm sure there's someone
# [18:58] <jgraham> "enjoy"?
# [18:59] <jgraham> Not really
# [18:59] <jgraham> But what is the question?
# [18:59] <Workshiva> I'm looking into the interaction between global namespace pollution from element ids and global variables
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# [18:59] <Workshiva> From my reading it looks like <div id=a></div><script>var a;</script> will leave a pointing to the div
# [19:00] <jgraham> I have a feeling this is a aknown bug
# [19:00] <jgraham> in HTML5
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# [19:01] <Workshiva> Could be. Is there a known bug report too?
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# [19:02] <jgraham> Ah I am thinking of what bz said "The id lookup happens after all other property resolution in browsers (but NOT in the current spec text, note), so if you had <div id="location"> and accessed window.location you would get a Location object, not the <div>."
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# [19:02] <Workshiva> That's different
# [19:02] <jgraham> Dunno if there is a bug
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# [19:02] <Workshiva> (Your case is global property first, then element appears. My case is element appears, then global property appears.)
# [19:02] <jgraham> Because the order is different?
# [19:03] <jgraham> Yeah
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# [19:03] <Workshiva> bz's case should actually work as expected I think
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# [19:04] <Workshiva> (Becauase HasProperty will be true when the named property for the element is attempted created)
# [19:06] <jgraham> Yes WebIDL seems to have fixed up that case
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# [19:12] <Workshiva> I'm not sure how to fix the other case short of a willful violation
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# [19:15] <jgraham> Workshiva: How do you figure it's not supposed to work?
# [19:16] <jgraham> Because the getter is [[Configurable]] false?
# [19:17] <Workshiva> Variable declarations are parsed in es5 10.5. Step 8 says not to set the variable to undefined if it already exists.
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# [19:19] <jgraham> Does an accessor property count as a binding? It isn't really clear to me how ES5 interacts with WebIDL here
# [19:19] <jgraham> I sort of think this can't happen in ES5
# [19:19] <Workshiva> WebIDL defines the accessor using [[DefineOwnProperty]] on the global object
# [19:20] <Workshiva> And the global environment uses a object environment record based on the global object
# [19:22] <jgraham> Is the text in [[DefineOwnProperty]] "Create an own accessor property named P of object O whose..." equivalent to creating a mutable binding?
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# [19:23] <Workshiva> Yes, CreateMutableBinding actually delegates to DefineOwnProperty
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# [19:23] <Workshiva> (10.2.1.2.2)
# [19:23] <jgraham> Yes I just found that
# [19:23] <jgraham> I was reading the wrong CreateMutableBinding
# [19:25] <jgraham> OK, I agree this case doesn't work
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# [19:26] <jgraham> (I assume it *does* work in browsers?)
# [19:27] <Workshiva> It fails in webkit, apparently
# [19:27] <Workshiva> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=80591
# [19:29] <jgraham> Nice
# [19:29] <mven> hixie you here ?
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# [19:32] <Hixie> mven: am now, what's up?
# [19:32] <mven> hey was browsing the html5 spec
# [19:32] <mven> particularly http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#a-quick-introduction-to-html
# [19:32] <mven> the part where it says n the following fragment, however, the attribute's value is actually "?art?", not the intended "?art&copy
# [19:33] <mven> i think its missing the semicolon
# [19:33] <mven> or i could be reading it wrong
# [19:33] <mven> heh
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# [19:35] <Workshiva> Hixie: By the way, should I make a separate report for the outdated WebIDL terminology?
# [19:36] <bfrohs> mven: That is referring to the example provided below that sentence where, in fact, &copy is provided *without* a semicolon.
# [19:37] <bfrohs> mven: It's basically explaining why it's important to use & instead of just &
# [19:38] * Workshiva cries at non-multipage spec links
# [19:39] <Hixie> mven: looking...
# [19:39] <bfrohs> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#syntax-errors
# [19:40] <Hixie> Workshiva: just add multipage/ to the URL
# [19:40] <Hixie> Workshiva: or use a better browser
# [19:40] <bfrohs> Under 'Errors involving fragile syntax contructs'
# [19:41] <Hixie> mven: the fact that the semicolon is missing is the point :-)
# [19:41] <Hixie> mven: i'll see if i can clarify this
# [19:41] <mven> ah k. yea, I was a bit confused but it could've been just me. but thanks for clarifying.
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# [19:46] <Hixie> mven: reload, tell me if it's more clear now
# [19:46] <mven> loading
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# [19:47] <mven> Yep. Much more explicit. Thanks!
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# [19:50] <Hixie> np
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# [19:51] <Workshiva> Want to fix "indexed for property retrieval" while you're at it? :)
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# [19:55] <Hixie> Workshiva: file a bug, i was only able to fix the other one because i was briefly in a state where i didn't have a major change ongoing :-)
# [19:55] <Hixie> i thought i'd fixed all the "indexed for property retrieval" things to use the latest terminology, though
# [19:55] <Hixie> did i miss one?
# [19:56] <Workshiva> Oh, maybe I'm just reading the wrong terminology then
# [19:57] <Hixie> i might well have missed one
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# [19:58] <Workshiva> Oh, I see. The indexing fragment refers to a different thing.
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# [19:58] <Workshiva> What I should have said is that "return the value obtained using the following steps" doesn't specify that it refers to "determine the value of a named property"
# [19:59] <Workshiva> But that's minor
# [19:59] <Hixie> file a bug :-)
# [19:59] <Hixie> there's a litle widget in the spec to make it easy :-)
# [19:59] <Hixie> easier even than irc :-P
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# [20:00] <Workshiva> Man, I have a bugzilla account, I feel like I'm doing it wrong when I use the widget :P
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# [20:00] <Hixie> i just got a question from a guy writing an html5 book asking me if html's syntax was strict like xml or loose like older versions of html
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# [20:00] * Hixie has a little concern for the quality of said book
# [20:01] * bfrohs isn't surprised... sadly
# [20:01] <gsnedders> Hixie: Just "a little"?
# [20:01] <Workshiva> I'm still working on teaching all my team members that <html> is an optional tag
# [20:04] <Philip`> That sounds like a waste of effort
# [20:05] <Philip`> since usually you'll want to add a lang and can't make use of the optionality
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# [20:06] <Philip`> Better to just teach them that </head> is optional, because that's a rule you can always apply, and it's much more fun because it'll randomly break certain pages in old browsers
# [20:07] <AryehGregor> Even if you add <body>?
# [20:07] <Philip`> Hmm, probably not in that case
# [20:07] <Hixie> </head> being optional is a pain when the first thing in the <body> is something that goes in <head> too (e.g. <script>)
# [20:07] <Philip`> but only crazy people add <body>
# [20:07] <Hixie> that's why the live dom viewer starts with "..." in the body :-)
# [20:08] <AryehGregor> Philip`, MediaWiki adds about four million classes to <body>.
# [20:08] <AryehGregor> Why it doesn't add them to <html>, I don't know.
# [20:08] <AryehGregor> Probably too late to change.
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# [20:09] <AryehGregor> Will old browsers not auto-open <body> on hitting a <div> or something?
# [20:10] <Philip`> They won't on hitting a <header>, I think
# [20:11] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's an issue.
# [20:11] <AryehGregor> Where "old" means "IE8".
# [20:11] <AryehGregor> Or maybe only IE7?
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# [20:13] <Workshiva> I'm too busy supporting IE5 to care
# [20:14] <Workshiva> Hixie: The issue with fixing it in WebIDL isn't that heycam won't cooperate, it's that I don't see how WebIDL _can_ fix it
# [20:14] <mpilgrim> you could always insert a div id=body to trigger the implicit body rule
# [20:15] <hober> AryehGregor: <head class> was invalid in HTML4, so people used to use <body class> instead
# [20:15] <AryehGregor> hober, you mean <html class> was invalid?
# [20:15] <hober> sorry, yes
# [20:15] <AryehGregor> That would explain it.
# [20:15] <hober> <html> only took dir="" and lang=""
# [20:16] <mpilgrim> don't forget xml:lang!
# [20:16] <Ms2ger> Like style@class
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# [20:34] <Hixie> Workshiva: if a browser can implement it, it can be specced
# [20:36] <Workshiva> Yeah, but I think it should be in HTML, not WebIDL
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# [20:37] <Hixie> why?
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# [20:39] <Ms2ger> Hixie, that's not a question I'd ever expected you to ask ;)
# [20:39] <Workshiva> Because it's a caused by window == global object, which is also in HTML
# [20:39] <Hixie> so it wouldn't happen on HTMLFormElement?
# [20:40] <Hixie> if you made an HTMLFormElement be the ThisBinding of a function that had a 'var', you'd want different behaviour than if you did it for Window?
# [20:41] <Workshiva> It's specific to object environment records, so it would have to be with (formel) {}
# [20:41] <Workshiva> And when you're doing with (anything) you get that behavior
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# [20:43] <Hixie> i have no idea what what you just said means :-)
# [20:43] <Workshiva> To put it another way, when using with people expect exactly that behavior
# [20:43] <Workshiva> It's a problem with element id lookups because those pollute the global object from the outside
# [20:44] <Hixie> oh, |with|
# [20:44] <Hixie> sorry i didn't realise that was a keyword there
# [20:44] <Workshiva> Ah. Yes.
# [20:44] <Hixie> that made your sentences very hard to parse :-)
# [20:44] <Workshiva> ... I can see that now.
# [20:44] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be with |with|
# [20:44] <Hixie> consider .apply()
# [20:45] <Hixie> or even form.foo = function () { var x; ...; return x; }; form.foo();
# [20:45] <Hixie> no?
# [20:45] <Workshiva> Functions use declarative environment records, not object environment records
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# [20:47] <Workshiva> If you have an object with a propery x, doing object.method(); requires you to do this.x, just x won't work so it can't collide with var x.
# [20:47] <Hixie> ah
# [20:47] <Hixie> well i don't really see what you want HTML to say
# [20:48] <Hixie> it's the WebIDL algorithms that make this all happen, no?
# [20:49] <Workshiva> jgraham summarized the wanted behavior neatly as "id lookup should happen after all other property resolution"
# [20:49] <Workshiva> WebIDL tries to integrate it with the normal variable environment, but this doesn't work because that has no concept of two levels, so the necessary shadowing can't happen
# [20:50] <Workshiva> I guess you could say the global environment actually has an outer environment which is the evil global namespace polluting element access environment
# [20:51] <Workshiva> So to make this work, it would be necessary to define a deviation from es5 on that or a similar level
# [20:52] <Workshiva> It's not specific to named property access, it just happens to manifest there
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# [20:52] <Hixie> it has to happen like webidl says it to some extent so that |'foo' in window| works, no?
# [20:53] <Workshiva> Yeah
# [20:53] <Hixie> i mean, it has to actually have a property
# [20:53] <Hixie> i think the solution is just to have 'var' override the property in this case
# [20:53] <Hixie> so whatever check 'var' does should not return true or whatever when it's being done for 'var' for these properties
# [20:54] <Workshiva> That sounds like it would solve the problem, but there's no existing mechanism that gives that behavior
# [20:55] <Workshiva> And we don't want this to happen when an object is used with |with|, so it can't be a general mechanism
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# [20:59] <Hixie> Workshiva: my suggestion would be for a mechanism like this to be added to WebIDL, keyed on some attribute i can put on Window, then
# [20:59] <Hixie> or somethig like that
# [20:59] <Hixie> unless you're saying Window shouldn't act like this ever for 'var'
# [21:00] <Hixie> what browsers do what you want, again? is it just IE? or IE and Firefox?
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# [21:01] <Workshiva> IE, Firefox and Opera do it my way.
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# [21:02] <Workshiva> Safari and Chrome do it the other way.
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# [21:03] <Hixie> yeah so clearly we just need to make the spec match everyone but WebKit
# [21:04] <Hixie> so post to public-webapps that we need to do this, get heycam to say how he thinks we should fix it, and then we'll fix it
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# [21:06] <otherarun> On another note, DOMException has lots of error codes on it, and some things should just be NOT_ALLOWED. I'm wondering whether we should have a separate exception called NotAllowedException and just throw that.
# [21:07] <otherarun> In particular, for multiple reads (reader.readAsxxx) on the same Blob by the same FileReader
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# [21:08] <Hixie> i just use INVALID_STATE_ERR or similar in those cases
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# [21:16] <otherarun> Hixie, do you disagree with a separate exception? Would you prefer to reuse?
# [21:17] <Hixie> personally i'm a fan of all of our APIs using only DOMException
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# [21:39] <Hixie> anyone know if anything is going on with the tab visibility api?
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# [22:11] <jamesr> Hixie: yeah
# [22:11] <jamesr> Hixie: the web perf WG added it to its charter and has a draft up
# [22:11] <jamesr> http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webperf.html
# [22:11] <jamesr> Hixie: i was gonna reply to the thread
# [22:15] <jgraham> jamesr: No, the right response was "Tab has his own API now?"
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# [22:24] <jwalden> AryehGregor: if you want to have cross-window-safe-instanceof, you could take your exception, walk the prototype chain to Object.prototype with Object.getPrototypeOf, grab a function off that, get the Function constructor from that, evaluate (Function("return this")()), then extract the relevant interface constructor from that
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> . . . wow.
# [22:24] <jwalden> AryehGregor: although that's going to fail in Firefox right now, I think, for the cross-window case, in some cases
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> Um, good to know?
# [22:24] <jwalden> bug 631135
# [22:24] <AryehGregor> jgraham, ^^
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# [22:28] <jwalden> this makes a fair handful of assumptions and/or requirements on what tests must not do
# [22:29] <jwalden> but no test should be mutating a prototype chain with __proto__ = ..., tests shouldn't be deleting Function.prototype.constructor (or such tests could probably be made to not use this method), and tests probably generally wouldn't delete a DOM constructor from the global object and then need to test with it
# [22:29] <jwalden> or something
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# [22:54] <zcorpan> Philip`, Hixie: including </head> does not help with the <script> case if you omit <body> anyway
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# [22:59] <jgraham> jwalden: Evil! I like it ;)
# [22:59] <jwalden> :-)
# [23:00] <jwalden> arguably it would have been better to have windows be entirely separate creatures, maybe with message passing as the only interface between them
# [23:00] <jwalden> then instanceof wouldn't be half-broken for this case
# [23:01] <jwalden> sixteen years too late
# [23:01] <Hixie> jamesr: k cool
# [23:02] <jamesr> Hixie: i'm pretty confident that the web perf wg will end up with something fairly dumb
# [23:02] <zcorpan> jwalden: sounds like an acid test in itself
# [23:03] <jwalden> zcorpan: dunno, I'm pretty sure all of those bits (except Object.getPrototypeOf, or a __proto__-based backwards-compatibility hackaround, so I guess the trick excludes <IEmumble) should be reliable
# [23:04] <Hixie> jamesr: hopefully if it's dumb it won't be implemented
# [23:04] <jwalden> "good will triumph because dumb is dumb"
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# [23:05] <AryehGregor> Hixie, that's only a possibility if the people coming up with it aren't implementers. Is that the case?
# [23:05] <AryehGregor> Seems unlikely.
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# [23:06] <jamesr> well i can't tell what the IE implementors in the group think
# [23:06] <jamesr> or how likely they are to implement dumb things
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# [23:06] <AryehGregor> IE team members are ever inscrutable.
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# [23:39] <jamesr> given w3 spec stored in hg and i have a link to the latest ED with 'tip' in the URL, how do i get a permalink to this draft?
# [23:44] <AryehGregor> jamesr, use hgweb to find the current revision id and substitute that for "tip".
# [23:44] <AryehGregor> jamesr, what's the specific example?
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# [23:45] <jamesr> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/PageVisibility/Overview.html
# [23:46] <jamesr> mkay, it's http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/rev/62eb533e186b so i want http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/62eb533e186b/specs/PageVisibility/Overview.html
# [23:46] <jamesr> thanks!
# [23:46] <AryehGregor> At http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/, if you click at the latest rev you get http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/rev/b51b296242fc.
# [23:47] <AryehGregor> 62eb533e186b is old, but maybe it's the last commit that touched your file or something.
# [23:47] <AryehGregor> Doesn't seem so.
# [23:47] <AryehGregor> You probably want b51b296242fc.
# [23:47] <jamesr> yeah later commits were to other files
# [23:47] <jamesr> ah yeah
# [23:48] <jamesr> actually c46bff617f9e
# [23:48] <AryehGregor> (prefixes of revision id's work too, even as short as "b5" in this case, as long as they're unique)
# [23:48] <jamesr> b51b was to a different spec
# [23:48] <AryehGregor> Doesn't matter, it's the same repo, so it will still work.
# [23:48] <AryehGregor> The latest in the repo is fine for your purposes.
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# [23:55] <AryehGregor> Stuff like Array.prototype.every.call(foo, ...) is a pain in the neck. Why can't array-like objects just inherit these methods somehow, the way you'd do it in standard OO?
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# [23:59] <AryehGregor> . . . have I mentioned before that IE9 has the best URL bar of any current browser?
# [23:59] <Lachy> AryehGregor, what's so good about it?
# Session Close: Fri Apr 29 00:00:00 2011

The end :)