/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 02 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [01:00] <Hixie> can someone explain why Lawrence Rosen keeps talking about patents when we're trying to discuss the copyright license?
  18. # [01:00] <Hixie> isn't he a lawyer? you'd think he'd know better that to try to confuse these unrelated matters.
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  28. # [01:19] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i updated the wiki page with some recent arguments
  29. # [01:19] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Forking
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  54. # [02:38] <llrcombs> ohai
  55. # [02:38] <llrcombs> about the cache manifest spec
  56. # [02:40] <llrcombs> may I suggest that the manifest spec include another field for each vile, specifying the last-modified date of the file, so that the client can auto-update the file if it's been modified since the cache was stored?
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  88. # [05:34] <MikeSmith> hmm
  89. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> the spec doesn't say anything about what the allowed value of the mediagroup attribute is
  90. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> clearly it's not meant to be a list of tokens
  91. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> so any string?
  92. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess if no additional constraints are specified for any particular attribute, by default it's just text
  93. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> or text and character references
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  181. # [09:45] <zcorpan> "Whether the W3C allows forking or not, and even if we grant that a license could stop this, this scenario could already happen because the entire HTML spec is already under a liberal license at the W3C." http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Forking - s/W3C./WHATWG./ ?
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  191. # [10:08] <othermaciej> I think Lawrence Rosen only likes the Option 1 and Option 3 licenses because he came up with them
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  193. # [10:18] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think the right response is "it's a wiki". But I noticed the same mistake and didn't fix it so…
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  195. # [10:20] <zcorpan> fixed
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  200. # [10:26] <othermaciej> hmm
  201. # [10:27] <othermaciej> I'm not sure it's right to call either CHTML or HDML "WC-hosted forks"
  202. # [10:27] <jgraham> A reasonable response to "there is nothing special about W3C sanctioned forks" might be that non-W3C forks aren't covered by the same IP commitments as W3C forks; so W3C forks are equivalent from a brand-dilution, confusion, fragmentation point of view, but not from a "people injecting stuff and charging for it later" point of view
  203. # [10:27] <othermaciej> they were both originally developed outside the W3C, published as member submission notes, and then rejected and developed outside the W3C
  204. # [10:27] <othermaciej> (afaik)
  205. # [10:36] <jgraham> (I don't know if there is a good response to that other than "the risk is outweight by the positive effects that the ability to fork brings")
  206. # [10:37] <othermaciej> whaoh
  207. # [10:37] <othermaciej> never heard of this before, HTML 4.0 Mobile: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/NOTE-html40-mobile-19990315/
  208. # [10:37] <othermaciej> (has its own DTD and everything)
  209. # [10:38] <othermaciej> also, XHTML+SMIL Profile: http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-XHTMLplusSMIL-20020131/
  210. # [10:39] <othermaciej> (not entirely sure if that is an HTML/XHTML fork)
  211. # [10:39] <jgraham> Ah, another entry from the graveyard "mobile will never be able to browse the real web"
  212. # [10:39] <jgraham> +of
  213. # [10:40] <othermaciej> it seems like the W3C forks HTML more than the rest of the world put together
  214. # [10:40] <jgraham> othermaciej: Interesting. A design goal of XHTML and XHTML2 was modularity so that people could take parts of specs and recombine them into a different form. That seems a lot like forking
  215. # [10:40] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-215.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: estellevw)
  216. # [10:40] <othermaciej> the whole XHTML Modularization thing?
  217. # [10:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM1-112-166-190.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  218. # [10:41] <jgraham> Yeah
  219. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I do not know what that is all about
  220. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I am not even sure whether XHTML 1.1 could reasonably be called an incompatible fork of 1.0
  221. # [10:42] * Joins: simplicity- (~simpli@unaffiliated/simplicity-)
  222. # [10:42] <jgraham> "This modularization provides a means for subsetting and extending XHTML, a feature needed for extending XHTML's reach onto emerging platforms"
  223. # [10:42] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/
  224. # [10:42] <jgraham> That sounds a lot like "forking" to me
  225. # [10:42] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  226. # [10:43] <jgraham> Albeit that you were probably not supposed to change the modules you reused. But you could add or subtract modules
  227. # [10:43] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc11-seac19-2-0-cust116.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  228. # [10:43] <othermaciej> I guess advocates of this approach would distinguish reusability and extensibility from forking
  229. # [10:43] <othermaciej> though forkability is really just reusability with arbitrarily fine granularity
  230. # [10:43] <jgraham> I don't see the practical difference
  231. # [10:44] <jgraham> In particular I don't see the difference from the point of view of IP
  232. # [10:44] <othermaciej> restricting the granularity of reuse may encourage greater pockets of interoperability (in theory)
  233. # [10:45] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  234. # [10:45] <othermaciej> it's funny to me that opinions on allowing forking per license, and on allowing free extension via "distributed extensibility" seem to be anticorrelated
  235. # [10:45] <jgraham> Yeah, that seems like a very theoretical outcome
  236. # [10:45] * Joins: hasather (~davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  237. # [10:45] <othermaciej> with the exception of notable individuals like Sam Ruby, who favors allowing both, which strikes me as a laudably consistent set of views
  238. # [10:46] <othermaciej> (note: I mean that sincerely, not trying to be snarky in any way)
  239. # [10:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: wow. indeed the whole Modularization thing is interesting in the context of being scared of licenses that allow forking
  240. # [10:46] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-231-245.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  241. # [10:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: I had forgotten about Modularization
  242. # [10:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: Lucky you ;)
  243. # [10:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: :-)
  244. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I'd never hear of HTML 4.0 Mobile either
  245. # [10:46] <othermaciej> I am amazed at how many different HTML forks have been published in some form by the W3C
  246. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> HTML 4.0 Mobile looks like a proto-"Mobile Web Best Practices"
  247. # [10:47] <jgraham> othermaciej: I don't think distributed extensibility and forking have much to do with each other really. At least the main arguments in favour of allowing forking aren't the same as the main arguments people use for DE
  248. # [10:47] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@196.207.205.183)
  249. # [10:47] <othermaciej> that's not even counting the mainline successor specs, even though you could argue that XHTML1 is an incompatible fork of HTML4, and perhaps likewise for XHTML 1.1
  250. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> hmm, the did actually publish a HTML 4.0 Mobile DTD - HTML 4.0 Mobile
  251. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/NOTE-html40-mobile-19990315/DTD/html40-mobile.dtd
  252. # [10:47] <othermaciej> HTML5 plausibly is a successor to HTML4 and XHTML1 so I'll give the W3C a pass on that
  253. # [10:48] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: yeah, I thought it might be a "best practices" but it has its own DTD
  254. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
  255. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: btw, you are right about CHTML and HDML, afaik -- I don't think they ever had any organizational support from any standards body at all
  256. # [10:49] <othermaciej> I mean, I was not around at the time
  257. # [10:49] <othermaciej> but from what I can tell, they were published in a totally unofficial way
  258. # [10:50] <othermaciej> oh hey, another fork, the html4all "HTML 4.1" draft: http://html4all.org/HTMLDraft.html
  259. # [10:50] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@77.222.73.150)
  260. # [10:52] <espadrine> I think crockford has its own html5 fork
  261. # [10:52] <Lachy> FWIW, developers.whatwg.org is also technically a fork
  262. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> crockford's draft is vaporware
  263. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> or vapor-spec
  264. # [10:52] <Lachy> espadrine, where is crockford's draft?
  265. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.crockford.com/html/
  266. # [10:53] <espadrine> Lachy: no idea, but he said in a talk I saw that he did have it!
  267. # [10:53] * othermaciej has CNN on in the background going on about Bin Laden
  268. # [10:54] <espadrine> MikeSmith: "That's it." Whaa, so soon?
  269. # [10:54] <jgraham> I think calling Crockford's effort a fork is insulting to all serious forkers everywhere
  270. # [10:54] <abarth> "No more framesets, frames, or iframes. The security properties of these were problematic. Instead we'll have modules."
  271. # [10:55] <abarth> "The only character encoding permitted in HTML 5 is UTF-8." <-- I like that part.
  272. # [10:55] * Joins: jochen___ (~jochen@nat/google/x-wkliaksxttwzdxta)
  273. # [10:56] <othermaciej> so I added a section for "W3C-published but disavowed forks"
  274. # [10:56] <othermaciej> I am not sure if XHTML2 should go in that section or in "W3C-hosted forks"
  275. # [10:57] <othermaciej> did the ex-XHTML2 folks ever follow through on their plan to continue development outside the W3C?
  276. # [10:58] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-ykgsrqvxmtpbetek) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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  278. # [10:58] <jgraham> (FWIW I think that wiki page would be better without all the nonsense about governments creating incompatible forks to restrict access to the web. There is only ~1 person who can possibly seriously believe that)
  279. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: not that I've heard
  280. # [10:59] <Lachy> That wiki page you're working on seems to be using a strange definition of forking. Many of those specs listed are not forks of previous specs, but rather newly created versions.
  281. # [11:00] <othermaciej> does JHTML count as an HTML fork: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JHTML
  282. # [11:00] <othermaciej> Lachy: mostly they fork the language without textually forking a previous spec document
  283. # [11:00] <Lachy> but then, I guess that just proves that the W3C's fear of forks that could be prevented by stricter copyright are a very limited subset.
  284. # [11:01] <othermaciej> or how about FBML
  285. # [11:01] <Lachy> ok
  286. # [11:01] * Joins: tomasf (~tom@c-5ed9e555.024-204-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  287. # [11:02] <Lachy> then I think it may be useful to more clearly distinguish between language forks and specification forks. The former would include ISO-HTML, EPUB, etc. The latter would include specs like developers.whatwg.org
  288. # [11:03] <othermaciej> by that standard, you could claim the HTML5 author view is a spec fork
  289. # [11:03] <Lachy> it is
  290. # [11:03] <othermaciej> but indeed, it is possible to fork the spec text without changing any normative requirements
  291. # [11:03] <Lachy> and it would be prevented by the W3C's strict licence
  292. # [11:03] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@92.103.127.226)
  293. # [11:03] <jgraham> Lachy: I think the point is that the supposed risks of forking are independent of whether one rewrites or one juct changes the existing text
  294. # [11:04] <Lachy> it's also an example of why the W3C should permit forking
  295. # [11:04] <espadrine> the dangerous part isn't about forking, it is the intent that the forker has
  296. # [11:04] <espadrine> if he just wants to confuse people, it will confuse people
  297. # [11:04] <Lachy> jgraham, yes, but it's also useful to show the examples of forking that are beneficial, in order to illustrate the risk of preventing forks
  298. # [11:05] <othermaciej> I can't find a spec for FBML that makes clear whether it is actually an HTML fork or not
  299. # [11:05] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  300. # [11:05] <jgraham> othermaciej: FBML was abandonded so I think it might be hard to find documentation
  301. # [11:05] <othermaciej> Wikipedia says it is a customized version of HTML with extra tags, but I can't verify that with facebook's docs
  302. # [11:06] <jgraham> They have now forked RDFa instead...
  303. # [11:06] <jgraham> (in the sense that their processing requirments are, by design, entirely different to those in the RDFa spec)
  304. # [11:06] <abarth> fbml is still used
  305. # [11:06] <abarth> e.g., for the like button
  306. # [11:07] <jgraham> Lachy: I agree
  307. # [11:07] <abarth> http://developers.facebook.com/docs/reference/plugins/like/
  308. # [11:07] <abarth> <fb:like ref="top_left"></fb:like>
  309. # [11:07] <jgraham> Does it count as forking if you use colons? :)
  310. # [11:08] <abarth> that i can't tell you
  311. # [11:08] <abarth> but fbml uses lots of colons
  312. # [11:08] <Lachy> that looks more like "distributed extensibility"
  313. # [11:08] <hsivonen> colons are definitely distributed
  314. # [11:08] <othermaciej> it adds a bunch of tags with colons in them
  315. # [11:08] <jgraham> Although, having said the arguments in favour of the two are totally different, the arguments against forking also work against DE
  316. # [11:08] <othermaciej> what I am not sure of is whether you mix those with HTML, or use only the funky fb: tags
  317. # [11:08] <abarth> it also changes the semantics of existing tags
  318. # [11:08] <abarth> like <script>
  319. # [11:09] <othermaciej> abarth: do you know of anything close to a spec for this?
  320. # [11:09] <jgraham> Unless you think that the before-colon part is enough to avoid confusion or whatever
  321. # [11:09] <othermaciej> I wonder why all the anchors on CNN seem to have australian accents
  322. # [11:10] <othermaciej> or it might be kiwi accents, I'm not totally sure I can hear the difference
  323. # [11:11] <Lachy> othermaciej, what's the anchor's name? I'll tell you if (s)he is Aussie
  324. # [11:11] <abarth> XFBML
  325. # [11:11] <abarth> omg
  326. # [11:11] <abarth> http://developers.facebook.com/docs/reference/javascript/
  327. # [11:11] <abarth> those script tags have really wonky semantics
  328. # [11:12] <abarth> but i'm not sure how much else they've changed about HTML semantics
  329. # [11:12] <abarth> i suspect they've changed things like autofocus
  330. # [11:12] <abarth> there isn't a spec so much as "try it on our site"
  331. # [11:12] * Parts: kor (~kor@a83-161-211-173.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  332. # [11:12] <othermaciej> Lachy: they're not showing or mentioning their names
  333. # [11:14] * jgraham wonders why Lachy has memorised all the Australian anchor's names on CNN
  334. # [11:17] <hsivonen> does anyone want to make predictions about the how Web pages will fail when the blink rate returned is -1?
  335. # [11:17] <jgraham> I predict that web pages won't fail because they won't use that API
  336. # [11:17] <othermaciej> that's assuming they try to use it to drive a timer?
  337. # [11:18] <othermaciej> what happens if you pass a negative number to setTimeout()?
  338. # [11:19] <hsivonen> othermaciej: assuming the most obvious failure wouldn't be Web-like. The Web can fail in more creative ways. :-)
  339. # [11:20] <othermaciej> I could certainly believe results like an infinite loop due to a poor termination condition
  340. # [11:21] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  341. # [11:22] <hsivonen> it would be rather tragic, though, if -1 lead to a seizure-inducing rate due to getting clamped to blinking avery 10 milliseconds.
  342. # [11:22] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i predict that it will fail in the following way: the page's background color will be hot pink instead of dark blue
  343. # [11:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: let's file that away for the claim chowder
  344. # [11:23] <jgraham> I'm reasonably sure 10ms blinks wouldn't induce seziures in most photo-sensitive epileptics
  345. # [11:24] <jgraham> But I need a citation for that
  346. # [11:25] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  347. # [11:25] <jgraham> "Most people with photosensitive epilepsy are sensitive to 16-25 Hz, although some people may be sensitive to rates as low as 3 Hz and as high as 60 Hz."
  348. # [11:25] <othermaciej> Lachy: I think I'm watching Rosemary Church, who is indeed an ozzie
  349. # [11:25] <jgraham> http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/photosensitive-epilepsy
  350. # [11:26] <othermaciej> I wonder what the default frequencies are
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  352. # [11:31] <jgraham> (I wonder how common it is to have caret-induced seziures in general. It seems that a person susceptible to such a stimulus would have a very high chance of having a seziure induce by many random things they would encounter in day to day life. Which is of course quite possible)
  353. # [11:31] <Lachy> jgraham, because a lot of the CNN anchors were formerly anchors on Australian News programs
  354. # [11:31] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  355. # [11:31] <Lachy> or are at least still used as foreign correspondants
  356. # [11:32] <Lachy> eg. Rosemary Church was on ABC News in Australia
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  362. # [11:44] <jgraham> gprof is so slow :(
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  364. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, I implemented schematron checking for img alt exceptions
  365. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> it turned out less ugly than I thought it would be
  366. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/validator/syntax/changeset/cb28748fbe89
  367. # [11:49] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: cool. I'll try to get to the Java review today.
  368. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> great if you can, but no rush
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  371. # [11:55] <hsivonen> so if a Web author is implementing a pseudo-caret as a span outline/border and not as pixels on a canvas, the author needs to use canvas APIs to discover the desired blink rate?
  372. # [11:55] * Joins: yijun (~yijun@210.192.97.43)
  373. # [11:56] <othermaciej> hsivonen: Hixie's proposal is to put this API on the navigator object instead
  374. # [11:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: ok. I guess I've lost track of all the proposals. did the placement on navigator get an objection yet?
  375. # [11:57] <othermaciej> I don't recall anyone objecting to it
  376. # [11:58] <hsivonen> exceptional
  377. # [11:58] <jgraham> Well people objected to having this API at all
  378. # [11:58] <othermaciej> but that's just an off-the-cuff statement, I did not double-check the email record
  379. # [11:58] <othermaciej> indeed, Jonas provided potential information to reopen the issue on the basis of objecting to this API
  380. # [11:58] <othermaciej> I believe Mac OS X has no obvious user-visible UI to set the caret blink rate
  381. # [11:59] <othermaciej> you can only change it via a hidden command-line setting
  382. # [11:59] <othermaciej> another command-line setting lets you turn off blinking entirely
  383. # [11:59] <othermaciej> I have not heard of anyone complaining about this
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  424. # [14:13] <zcorpan> hmm. how come firefox doesn't support contenteditable in text/xml?
  425. # [14:14] <zcorpan> or application/xml, but does support it in application/xhtml+xml
  426. # [14:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan: Firefox predates the HTML5 requirement of having all Documents implement all the HTMLDocument, SVGDocument, etc., interfaces
  427. # [14:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: and for whatever historical reason, only HTMLDocuments can be editable
  428. # [14:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: or something like that
  429. # [14:16] <zcorpan> ah
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  464. # [15:31] <wilhelm_> WTF. Take a look at the DOM of the first paragraph here: https://www.uka.no/program/oktoberfest2011/
  465. # [15:31] <wilhelm_> Who comes up with that kind of madness?
  466. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> the <cufon> element is a clue
  467. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> Lord Cufon
  468. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> the Merciless
  469. # [15:35] <hsivonen> wilhelm_: I was rather surprised the first time I realized that Cufon works in Opera Mini
  470. # [15:35] <wilhelm_> MikeSmith: Looks like the guy is currently in Shinjuku. Could you please head over there with a baseball bat and say hello from me?
  471. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> I will look around the neighborhood for him
  472. # [15:36] <wilhelm_> Good, thanks.
  473. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> it's a small place so he should be easy to find
  474. # [15:36] <wilhelm_> Definitely.
  475. # [15:37] <hsivonen> I hope Cufon could be declared obsolete already, but Opera Mini is one browser where Cufon works but @font-face doesn't...
  476. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Cufon is some real thing?
  477. # [15:37] <hsivonen> for some visual definition of "works"
  478. # [15:38] <wilhelm_> Yes, it's real: http://cufon.shoqolate.com/generate/
  479. # [15:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it's a Web font thing that predates wide @font-face support
  480. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> ah
  481. # [15:38] <hsivonen> IIRC, there are font foundries that like Cufon more than @font-face
  482. # [15:38] <hsivonen> which is really sad
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  484. # [15:55] <zcorpan> shelley says there's a pending comment to approve, and Wordpress needs updating in the blog
  485. # [15:56] * hsivonen looks for a comment to approve
  486. # [15:57] <hsivonen> ok. I approved the comment
  487. # [15:57] <zcorpan> thanks
  488. # [15:57] <zcorpan> i don't even know where to log in to the admin interface
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  490. # [15:58] <hsivonen> I'll defer to Lachy on updating WP
  491. # [15:58] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I could try the update...
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  493. # [15:58] <jgraham> There isn't a link afaict. One has to try random page names until one remembers the right one
  494. # [15:58] <hsivonen> hmm. I think I'll leave updating to Lachy after all
  495. # [15:58] <zcorpan> Lachy: ^
  496. # [15:59] <Lachy> hsivonen, WP should be able to update automatically if you just click the link in Dashboard
  497. # [15:59] <hsivonen> since I don't know how to make a backup of the data before updating
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  499. # [15:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, but I don't know how to take any precautions
  500. # [16:00] <Lachy> I don't usually bother. I have DB backups emailed to me weekly, so we're protected there
  501. # [16:00] <Lachy> I updated it.
  502. # [16:00] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks
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  506. # [16:22] <matjas_> zcorpan: so efficient :’)
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  511. # [16:33] <zcorpan> matjas_: heh
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  513. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> jgraham: amen
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  519. # [16:51] <zcorpan> is forums.whatwg.org slow for everyone or just me?
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  523. # [16:59] <zcorpan> is http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ a fork?
  524. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> yeah, I suppose it is
  525. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> though it does not claim to be a technical specification
  526. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> it claims only to be a reference
  527. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> at this point
  528. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> one that does not normatively define anything
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  530. # [17:00] <zcorpan> added to the wiki
  531. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> hmm, I think I should also make it more clear that http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ is non-normative
  532. # [17:02] <Philip`> Is http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/annotated-spec/canvas.html a fork?
  533. # [17:02] <zcorpan> yeah
  534. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> I have "Because this document does not provide implementation conformance criteria, UA implementors should not rely on it, but should instead refer to the full specification.", but I guess I should also have that part explicitly state, "This document is non-normative."
  535. # [17:03] <zcorpan> is that W3C-hosted or other?
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  562. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: fwiw, I don't think non-normative documents can really be considered forks
  563. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> though I guess they are in the context of the current license discussion
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  566. # [18:06] <jgraham> "forks" is a misleading term
  567. # [18:06] <jgraham> What licenses care about is "derivative works"
  568. # [18:07] <jgraham> "forks" are what (some) people want to avoid
  569. # [18:07] <jgraham> attempting to prevent all "derivative works" seems to be their favoured method
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  571. # [18:10] <Lachy> MikeSmith, a fork of a specification does not have to be a normative specification to be considered a fork, in the software development sense
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  573. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> Lachy: says you
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  575. # [18:12] <Lachy> MikeSmith, define fork?
  576. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah
  577. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> no
  578. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> can't be bothered
  579. # [18:13] <jgraham> Lachy: The sense in which github uses "fork" is not really the same as the older meaning
  580. # [18:13] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I just want to understand why you're excluding some derivative works that use the existing work as the basis as not being a fork
  581. # [18:14] <jgraham> The older meaning is a deliberate decison to create incompatible changes to a project without the intent to merge them back in
  582. # [18:14] <jgraham> or really with the intent not to merge them back in
  583. # [18:14] <Lachy> jgraham, that's basically the way I'm using it.
  584. # [18:15] <Lachy> but they don't necessarily have to be incompatible changes
  585. # [18:16] <jgraham> Lachy: Not really. A authoring guide that subsets the spec text isn't a fork; it doesn't compete with the original in any way. It is a derivative work however
  586. # [18:16] <Lachy> e.g. You could fork a piece of software, cut out some modules, and distribute it without any other modification to what was left it. That would still be a fork.
  587. # [18:16] <Lachy> there's no requirement about competing with the original
  588. # [18:16] <jgraham> I disagree
  589. # [18:17] <Lachy> "In software engineering, a project fork happens when developers take a legal copy of source code from one software package and start independent development on it, creating a distinct piece of software." -- Wikipedia
  590. # [18:17] <jgraham> Right. So a subset of a spec isn't independent
  591. # [18:17] <jgraham> It is tied to the original
  592. # [18:17] <jgraham> It is still a derivative work, however
  593. # [18:18] <jgraham> A new spec like HTML-Mobile is a fork
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  595. # [18:18] <jgraham> It has independent requirments that the original didn't have
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  598. # [18:19] <jgraham> It makes sense to distinguish these things because often people who dislike *forks* will nevertheless like some classes of *derivative work*
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  601. # [18:19] <jgraham> So licenses that stop any derivative work will be less acceptable to them
  602. # [18:20] <jgraham> (this is more or less why the W3C has tried to come up with licenses that allow some derivative works but prevent forks)
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  604. # [18:21] <jgraham> (but haven't dealt with the fact that many useful derivative works are OSS and the fact that the ability to fork itself is can be a positive thing)
  605. # [18:21] <Lachy> jgraham, no, there is no difference. A fork is simply a derivative work. It's just that some people are confused and think that a fork is a special subset of derivative works.
  606. # [18:21] <jgraham> Well I agree that some people are confused
  607. # [18:21] <zewt> well, "fork" in software terms usually implies competition: you don't like how software is maintained or they won't accept your patches, so you make a copy and try to get people to use it instead; a fork of a program often has a lot of overlap with the original
  608. # [18:21] <jgraham> I disagree about which set of people :)
  609. # [18:22] <zewt> forking a spec *can* have that effect ... but the ratio may be different, anyway
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  611. # [18:24] <zewt> Lachy: taking a small subsection from a spec to use in your own is a derivative work, but I don't think I'd call it a fork
  612. # [18:24] <zewt> (you might call it a fork of that subsection, but I don't think that's how most people think of the term)
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  614. # [18:28] <Lachy> zewt, you're just applying arbitrary restrictions to your definition of fork, and discounting the modifications that have been made in deriviative works like developers.whatwg.org
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  616. # [18:28] <zewt> eh, no, I'm saying what the word "fork" means to most people
  617. # [18:28] <zewt> how, exactly, did I discount anything?
  618. # [18:29] <zewt> it's not "forking" that needs to be allowed, it's "arbitrary derivative works", whether it's a fork or anything else
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  620. # [18:30] <jgraham> Lachy: applying "arbitary restrictions" to the definitions of words so that they mean a specific thing rather than all meaning very general things is often considered a desirable property of language
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  623. # [18:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: The concept referred to by a referent will be different between different people, because denotation and connotation are not definite things, and vary over time.
  624. # [18:33] <gsnedders> Lachy: So expecting everyone to have the same denotations/connotations for referents as you is unrealistic
  625. # [18:33] <zewt> ... however, "derivative works" is a legal term, and while it likely varies by jurisdiction, it's far more clearly-defined than "fork" :)
  626. # [18:34] <jgraham> In other news gsnedders learnt some posh words in his langauge course :p
  627. # [18:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: Nothing I didn't know before (well, that's untrue, but I knew the above before :P)
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  629. # [18:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well you're not really sayign anything particularly difficult
  630. # [18:35] <jgraham> Just dressing it up in a fancy way
  631. # [18:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: meh
  632. # [18:35] <jgraham> :)
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  634. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> cours de linguistique générale
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  640. # [18:39] <Lachy> jgraham, say for example, you take source of some free software, like VLC player. All you do is remove a few codecs you don't need/want to support and change the name/icon. Then you start distributing that. Is that a fork or not?
  641. # [18:39] <zewt> yes
  642. # [18:39] <gsnedders> I'd say no
  643. # [18:39] <Lachy> How is that different from taking the specification text, removing bits you don't need/want, changing the title, and then distributing that
  644. # [18:39] <Lachy> gsnedders, why?
  645. # [18:40] <jgraham> Lachy: If you're distributing the result *as a specification* I would call it a fork
  646. # [18:40] <jgraham> For the specification case
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  648. # [18:41] <jgraham> Well it is a bit complex
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  650. # [18:41] <Lachy> gsnedders, what about GNU IceCat vs. Firefox? Pretty much all they did there was change the branding to work around some licence restritions, and otherwise keep up with Firefox's modifications. Is that a fork or not?
  651. # [18:41] <jgraham> Certainly if you removed <canvas> and <img> and <video> and distributed the result as "Accessible HTML5" I would call that a fork
  652. # [18:42] <zewt> "fork" is a very fuzzy term; for what it's worth I don't think it should matter--you should be able to make derivative works for any purpose (including whatever each person's intuitive understanding of "fork" means)
  653. # [18:42] <jgraham> Lachy: (I would call the specific example of IceCat "petulant whining", but that could just be me)
  654. # [18:42] <zewt> heh
  655. # [18:43] <gsnedders> Lachy: I would claim a fork implies a branch that won't really be resynced.
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  657. # [18:44] <Lachy> gsnedders, what about Ubuntu and Debian? Ubuntu gets resynced with Debian all the time, but is still a fork
  658. # [18:44] <zewt> (I suppose some part of my intuitive understanding of "fork" is the implication that it goes in a different direction--that development forks off and does something else--but that's all fuzzy and intuitive and subjective and all those things that have no place around licensing)
  659. # [18:44] <jgraham> Lachy: Ubuntu has long-lived changes
  660. # [18:44] <jgraham> it is only a partial resync
  661. # [18:45] <gsnedders> Lachy: what jgraham said
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  672. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Dear Mike,
  673. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> As a developer for HTML5, I would like to know why native support for Flash was not built-in like video and audio. HTML5 only hurts web developers by not supporting the most popular animation software ever created.
  674. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> Developers must now resort to writing Javascripts to add website animation much like back in the 90s. HTML5 appears to be a big backwards step for web standards.
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  678. # [18:57] <zewt> does he write javascripts to manipulate his HTMLs?
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  680. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Joyent should trademark the phrase "Back to the future"
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  684. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> >
  685. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> >
  686. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> >
  687. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> >
  688. # [19:06] <jgraham> <
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  691. # [19:11] <karlcow> ⪥
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  694. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> Um.
  695. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> I... don't know how that happened.
  696. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> I was reading backlog when I apparently did it.
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  725. # [19:19] <miketaylr> MikeSmith: seen at jsconf party last night (re: node.js TM) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5821876/IMAG0605.jpg
  726. # [19:21] <JoePeck> does ValidityState typeMismatch make sense if an input type has a value sanitization algorithm?
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  730. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> miketaylr: heh
  731. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> lovely
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  733. # [19:24] <miketaylr> from one of the 'nodejitsu' guys shirts :)
  734. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> ah
  735. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> yeah, that figures
  736. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> those dudes are sharp
  737. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> well, most of them
  738. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> the ones I've met personally seem so
  739. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> the ones I've seen only on youtube videos and abusing the #Node.js channel less so
  740. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> but I guess I should shut up
  741. # [19:26] <miketaylr> haha
  742. # [19:26] <miketaylr> 'nuff said
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  783. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: to be clear, that "requirement" that Larry mentions in his message is not one that there was ever any discussion or agreement about
  784. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> it made it into that Wiki page because he added it there
  785. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> Which requirement?
  786. # [20:33] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I'm not going to get into it with Larry
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  789. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> just like the stuff at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/IriWorkGoals#HTML5EditorRequirements made it into that page because I added it there after he neglected to include it in the original version of the page when he created it
  790. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, understood
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  801. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2011May/0000.html
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  867. # [23:02] <AryehGregor> It's amazing how complicated something like "insertOrderedList" or "indent" can be.
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  907. # Session Close: Tue May 03 00:00:00 2011

The end :)