/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 06 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <jgraham> Two different Microsoft employees responded
  4. # [00:04] <jgraham> (at least)
  5. # [00:04] <jgraham> which is unusual
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  8. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Oddly, it gives the e-mail addresses of non-respondents but not respondents.
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  10. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> I'm counting Adrian Bateman, Eliot Graf, Kris Krueger, Frank Olivier, and Cynthia Shelly.
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  12. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Speculation: Adrian posted the official answer, and sent out a memo to other MS people to agree with the party line.
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  15. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> (Did any of them disagree?)
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  17. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Are you implying a Microsoft Cabal?
  18. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> Unsurprising, since this is an individual vote rather than organizational.
  19. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's fair to call a publicly-traded corporation a "cabal".
  20. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> That carries some implications of secrecy that are unlikely to apply.
  21. # [00:13] <Dashiva> But then there's no need to speculate about cabal-like activities
  22. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> Well, right, granted.
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  25. # [00:14] <bga_> heh in old opera 9.64 win.onmessage does not works but win.addEventListener('message' is ok
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  28. # [00:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the copyright notice has a link to http://www.ercim.org/ which redirects to http://www.ercim.eu/
  29. # [00:17] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: should i change the link to http://www.ercim.eu/ ?
  30. # [00:19] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I guess the saving grace is that these "votes" are not actually votes
  31. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> There are tallies, though.
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  33. # [00:23] <jgraham> In theory the analysis isn't "most votes wins" I think
  34. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Not exactly, no, but if it has any impact at all, I expect the tallies to be a large part of it.
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  36. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> I mean, almost no one *said* anything in their response other than "we like forking" or "we don't like forking".
  37. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> It's not like you can get much out of the survey other than the tallies.
  38. # [00:26] <jgraham> You could infer that there isn't consensus to adopt any of the PSIG licenses for any reasonable definition of consensus
  39. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> Well, you can get that out of the tallies.
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  42. # [00:29] <jgraham> Yes, I'm not saying that the prose is very valuable
  43. # [00:29] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11452#c9 is fun
  44. # [00:30] <jgraham> I doubt anyone said anything that will convince anyone else
  45. # [00:30] <Hixie> AryehGregor: did anyone say "we like forking"? Not "we like the ability to fork"? I doubt anyone actually likes forking per se...
  46. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I was using it as shorthand.
  47. # [00:30] <Hixie> oh ok
  48. # [00:32] <jgraham> is ★ a non-BMP character? I think we have problems with non-BMP characters in file names
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  51. # [00:34] <zcorpan> U+2605 - BMP
  52. # [00:35] <jcranmer> 9733
  53. # [00:35] <jcranmer> definitely BMP
  54. # [00:36] <jcranmer> ☃ is still BMP ... o_O
  55. # [00:36] <jgraham> Oh well it must be a differnet bug then
  56. # [00:37] <Hixie> opera failed hard on that test
  57. # [00:37] <Hixie> it let me pick the file and then said "what file? there's no file here"
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  59. # [00:40] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12611 - clearly html-differences needs a proper review
  60. # [00:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: there is no spoon
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  63. # [00:46] <zcorpan> Philip`: let me know if you make changes to the splitter
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  74. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: it's OK to change that ERCIM URL if you want, but you it's not a requirement
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  76. # [01:05] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: as far as the content, there are a few other recent changes I can think of that you should list
  77. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> e.g., new mediagroup attribute
  78. # [01:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: pls file bugs :)
  79. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> OK
  80. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> I was just going to ask if you wanted me to do that :)
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  83. # [01:07] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12223 - anyone care enough to get rel=help nuked?
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  88. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: well, it's on the microformats "existing rel values" page, so it remains valid anyway
  89. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> which is true also for pretty much all the other link-relation names that have been dropped
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  91. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> so from a user/author POV, it makes little difference in practice if it's dropped from the spec or not
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  93. # [01:14] <zcorpan> useless features should be moved to the invalid department imho
  94. # [01:15] <zcorpan> but i don't feel strongly about it
  95. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> it's a wiki
  96. # [01:15] <zcorpan> now time to sleep
  97. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> おやすみ
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  100. # [01:15] <zcorpan> don't make me translate that; i'm going to bed
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  108. # [01:30] <jamesr> someone is wondering why there isn't a delta on onscroll events
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  112. # [01:33] <jamesr> anyone know why?
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  114. # [01:36] <heycam> smaug____ may know
  115. # [01:36] <smaug____> jamesr: hmm. I'd say at least because of historical reasons
  116. # [01:37] <smaug____> jamesr: also, what kinds of values would you expect?
  117. # [01:37] <smaug____> and, scroll event happens after scrolling
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  120. # [01:38] <smaug____> ...so I'm not quite sure what the delta would mean
  121. # [01:38] <smaug____> especially if the size of viewport changes while scrolling
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  123. # [01:38] <jamesr> the difference in scroll offsets relative to the previous scroll event, i suppose
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  126. # [01:39] <jamesr> the top/left offsets shouldn't depend on the viewport size
  127. # [01:39] <jamesr> just the possible max values for them
  128. # [01:40] <smaug____> at which point would you calculate offset to top/left?
  129. # [01:41] <smaug____> when user scrolls, or when the scroll event is dispatched?
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  131. # [01:41] <jamesr> when the event dispatches
  132. # [01:42] <jamesr> if i scroll down 53px then the next scroll event would have scrollDeltaY = 53 (or -53, i can never remember which way the coord system goes)
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  134. # [01:44] <smaug____> jamesr: and if you after that scroll say 10px, scrollDeltaY would be 63?
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  136. # [01:44] <smaug____> or 10?
  137. # [01:44] <jamesr> the next scroll event would say 10
  138. # [01:45] <jamesr> or i suppose each event could have the scrollTop/scrollLeft pair for the thing it was scrolling
  139. # [01:45] <smaug____> that would be tricky to implement, I think
  140. # [01:45] <smaug____> since layout may change during scrolling
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  142. # [01:45] <smaug____> so how to decide that 10px was scrolled
  143. # [01:45] <jamesr> well, we have to do layout to scroll at all
  144. # [01:46] <smaug____> it would be easier to report offset to top/left
  145. # [01:47] <smaug____> but, we have that kinds of offset already elsewhere
  146. # [01:47] <jamesr> not sure i agree
  147. # [01:47] <jamesr> in webkit all the scrolls are internally done with deltas
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  149. # [01:48] <smaug____> sure, in gecko, scrolling works with deltas too
  150. # [01:50] <smaug____> what would be the use case for adding offsets or deltas to scroll event?
  151. # [01:57] <smaug____> Seems like in gecko adding such delta would be quite easy. But since scroll event is async, I'm not quite sure how useful the delta would be. Perhaps there is some good use case ...
  152. # [01:58] <jamesr> some pages react to scroll events to lazy load parts of the DOM when they are close to scrolling into view, so currently they listen to scroll events and then in the handler have to figure out which way the scroll actually went
  153. # [01:58] <jamesr> there's buffering so it's ok if the event is later
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  156. # [02:00] <smaug____> ah, that is a good use case
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  159. # [02:03] <jamesr> i'm not totally sure why they want a delta instead of just querying scrollTop/scrollLeft in the handler - maybe that's just a PITA to keep track of
  160. # [02:04] <smaug____> is this some bug report where some web devs want a new feature?
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  162. # [02:06] <smaug____> If such additional properties were to added to scroll event, I think cssom-view would be the right place to define that all
  163. # [02:06] <jamesr> an email, but yes
  164. # [02:08] <smaug____> jamesr: but don't they still need to check if the view port has been scrolled long enough before loading some new data to page?
  165. # [02:08] <jamesr> oh? do they cover dom events?
  166. # [02:08] <jamesr> yes, they internally use it to calculate their view offset thingy
  167. # [02:08] <smaug____> in that case delta might not be useful
  168. # [02:09] <jamesr> why's that? they listen to resize to detect viewport size changes
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  170. # [02:10] <smaug____> I mean, perhaps having just some flag to indicate the direction might be enough
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  173. # [02:12] <smaug____> Though, deltaX/Y are that kinds of flags with a bit more information
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  175. # [02:15] <smaug____> so, the delta needs to be calculated when scrolling happens, not when the event is dispatched
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  181. # [02:24] <jamesr> does firefox aggregate multiple user scrolls into one scroll event?
  182. # [02:25] <jamesr> or are they 1:!?
  183. # [02:25] <jamesr> 1:1*
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  185. # [02:27] <smaug____> IIRC 1:1
  186. # [02:28] * smaug____ tries to remember if there is some special case when handling Win7 touch screen panning
  187. # [02:29] <smaug____> ...there shouldn't be
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  190. # [02:33] <smaug____> oh, smoothscrolling may change the default 1:1
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  195. # [02:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins, ap: who should i cc on bugs that affect for webkit's form controls implementation?
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  197. # [02:43] <Hixie> (the bug in this case being http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11212 )
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  202. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> Kent Tamura
  203. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> maybe
  204. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> oh
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  206. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> I meant if it's about HTML5 forms stuff
  207. # [02:50] * MikeSmith looks at the bug
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  211. # [02:52] <Hixie> it's about required="" on <input typeradio>
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  222. # [03:10] <ap> Hixie: yes, tkent is the right person for that. And I'll see the bug anyway, and might CC someone else
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  224. # [03:12] <ap> oh, if it's a w3.org bug, I won't see it anyway, I as thinking of webkit.org
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  346. # [08:46] <hsivonen> Hmm. is there some SEO scam that's based on translating Web pages into the mother tongue of the translator
  347. # [08:47] <hsivonen> something like the translations actually being machine translations but the links to them give Google juice to a scam?
  348. # [08:48] <hsivonen> so far, I've always permitted my pages to be translated and the translations seemed legitimate, but now I got a permission request that I don't know what to think of
  349. # [08:48] <hsivonen> kinda sad, though, that I even have to consider the possibility of a scam
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  351. # [08:50] <hsivonen> hmm. googling around for the guy sure makes it look like the translations are all about building google juice for hosting-related domains
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  358. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: there's some guy like that who has contributed translations of the CSS info hosted at W3C
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  360. # [09:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I made this the first time I declined a translation permission
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  378. # [09:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if you have not read http://greggkellogg.net/2011/05/05/cme-and-the-semantic-web yet, it's worth reading
  379. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> [[
  380. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> the fact is, though, that proprietary metadata formats are much simpler to implement and manage. According to a key opinion maker: “I bet the average developer can get a simple XML-based music metadata system up and running in less time than it would take to read the Music Ontology document. We can get most (all?) of the benefits of RDF through simpler means.
  381. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> ]]
  382. # [09:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  383. # [09:53] <hsivonen> "a key opinion maker" sounds like weasel language, though
  384. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> heh
  385. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> indeed
  386. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> kind of suspicious
  387. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> but the piece overall seems pretty well-considered
  388. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: do you know if Opera has an public plan to implement CSP?
  389. # [09:57] <zcorpan> i don't
  390. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> ok
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  397. # [10:10] <zcorpan> bet browsers aren't going to call all keyboard events LegacyKeyboardEvent http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#legacy-key-attributes
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  399. # [10:10] * zcorpan will review more closely later
  400. # [10:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I commented on the music/SemWeb post. Got stuck in moderation
  401. # [10:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: my comment was http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1219593
  402. # [10:15] * MikeSmith reads
  403. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> yeah
  404. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> "astounding uptake" does not seem the most apt description
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  647. # [21:51] <Hixie> jgraham: yt?
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  649. # [21:51] <Hixie> jgraham: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12299#c9
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  667. # [22:24] <Hixie> Ms2ger: hah, i hadn't noticed it was you filing the bug in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12187. I wouldn't have asked if it was a trick question if I had! :-P
  668. # [22:25] <Ms2ger> :)
  669. # [22:26] * Ms2ger is happy to see bugs being fixed :)
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  686. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> Has anyone thought about the fact that you can use the CSS cursor property to make it look like the cursor is anywhere you like on the page? Like, security-wise?
  687. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Maybe there are easier ways to make the cursor look like it's pointing at the wrong thing, though.
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  706. # Session Close: Sat May 07 00:00:00 2011

The end :)