/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 11 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> The per-organization breakdown of the license survey is interesting.
  15. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Implementers and unaffiliated people are overwhelmingly in favor of some type of free license.
  16. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> But if you do a count by organization and ignore unaffiliated people, non-free licenses would win, because the non-implementer organizations lean strongly against free licenses.
  17. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> In fact, only one non-implementer organization (Intel) said that it couldn't live with option 3, while eight non-implementer organizations said they preferred or could live with it.
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  20. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> This pattern is interesting, because the AC is made up almost entirely of non-implementer organizations, and unaffiliated people get no say.
  21. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> And, of course, it voted against free licenses.
  22. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> I always find it interseting that there is such a disconnect between the orgs that actually have a stake in the tech and those that don't.
  23. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> It suggests to me that perhaps implementers and individuals are involved in the W3C because they have a stake in the issue and don't care so much about the W3C itself, while non-implementer organizations are more likely to be interested in influencing the standards through the W3C, and so would be unhappy with the W3C losing power.
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  25. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> Implementers will control the specs anyway, and unaffiliated individuals have no say anyway, so it doesn't make a big difference to them whether the specs are edited at the W3C or someplace else.
  26. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Except Microsoft. Who knows who made Microsoft's decision and why.
  27. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Of course, the W3C is dependent on having lots of members that don't have a big stake in things, because that's the only way it can get enough membership dues to support its bureaucracy.
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  29. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> So I don't think the W3C is likely to be fixable, in the end.
  30. # [00:37] * Parts: demet8 (~demet8@7.186.8.67.cfl.res.rr.com)
  31. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> To fix it, you'd have to give the power to the people who have an actual stake in things, and that would disenfranchise the other members.
  32. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Who would either not permit it, or leave and take away the W3C's funding.
  33. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> I guess the implementers aren't going to actually leave the W3C anytime soon, though, since the job it does isn't sufficiently bad to warrant the trouble, so we're stuck with the status quo.
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  44. # [00:53] <Hixie> jgraham: yt? (or any other opera peeps)
  45. # [00:55] <wilhelm_> \o
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  53. # [01:16] <karlcow> AryehGregor: I didn't understand the breakdown by organizations. Because basically it is not really the voice of the organization but the voice of people inside the organization which is slightly different.
  54. # [01:16] <karlcow> I guess the AC vote is the real breakdown by organizations
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  80. # [02:37] <erlehmann> AryehGregor, any rationale why non-implementors do not like free licenses in general?
  81. # [02:38] * erlehmann just doesn't get it
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  83. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Based on the responses that were given, it's mostly because they dont' understand copyright law or history.
  84. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> It's possible that some of the people who voted but didn't give a response have some reasonable objections, but nobody who actually gave a response did.
  85. # [02:43] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
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  87. # [02:43] <erlehmann> how unfortunate. but based on my experience regarding voting on technical issues, it seems plausible.
  88. # [02:45] <TabAtkins> For example, several people seem to believe that by restricting forking with copyright they can actually prevent forking, which is obviously incorrect (it just makes it more difficult, as we saw with HTML5).
  89. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> Others seem to believe that the mere presence of a fork is automatically harmful, despite the fact that forks are only as strong as the implementors who support them, as evidenced by the multitude of existing forks that are completely irrelevant.
  90. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> Finally, one crazy person believes that forking the HTML spec may allow dictators to oppress their populace more effectively. I... I just don't know what that one's about.
  91. # [02:49] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Quit: ap)
  92. # [02:49] <erlehmann> Because, obviously, autocrats will respect copyright.
  93. # [02:49] <TabAtkins> Yes, that's certainly part of the reason why that objection is crazy.
  94. # [02:51] <erlehmann> There should be some “civilized” form to say that something is wrong in an entirely wrong way.
  95. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> "You're not even wrong."\
  96. # [02:51] <erlehmann> Oh, I may use that :3
  97. # [02:51] <Hixie> ah, pauli
  98. # [02:52] <TabAtkins> Yus.
  99. # [02:52] <Hixie> not entirely apropos here, but yeah
  100. # [02:52] <Hixie> i prefer "fractally wrong" for this kind of thing
  101. # [02:52] <Hixie> wrong at every level
  102. # [02:56] <othermaciej> those with Member access should look at the survey the Team actually posted to the AC
  103. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> Ooh, where?
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  106. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> Unrelated: Yo, people in Japan, I've lost the super-convenient site for getting info/booking for the shinkansen. Any help?
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  111. # [03:07] <stefan-_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXtOv0QlYao
  112. # [03:09] <TabAtkins> Japanese people: found it, it was hyperdia.com
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  266. # [09:42] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have a demo with a a long WebM file for testing if seeking works over HTTP Range requests?
  267. # [09:42] <hsivonen> it's supposed to work, right?
  268. # [09:47] <hsivonen> testing with http://lachy.id.au/log/2010/05/webm seems to work if Firefox and Opera
  269. # [09:48] <hsivonen> also Chrome 12
  270. # [09:48] <hsivonen> not in Chromium 11
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  275. # [10:04] <hsivonen> what's the deal with it appearing that Range request-based seeking is in Chrome 12 but not in Chromium 11. Were they really this late to add it, am I testing wrong or do Chrome and Chromium have very different video code paths?
  276. # [10:04] <hsivonen> I tested Google-provided Chrome and Canonical-provided Chromium
  277. # [10:06] <nessy> maybe ask over in #chrome channel?
  278. # [10:06] <hsivonen> nessy: does the result that Firefox and Opera support Range-based seeking seem correct to you?
  279. # [10:07] <nessy> I know they do
  280. # [10:07] <hsivonen> nessy: ok. thanks
  281. # [10:07] <nessy> and yes, from what you are describing it seems chromium doesn't
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  285. # [10:07] <nessy> which I find strange
  286. # [10:07] <nessy> like you :-)
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  288. # [10:08] <hsivonen> I just tried Chrome 11 on Mac
  289. # [10:09] <hsivonen> it seems to support range-based seeking
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  291. # [10:13] <nessy> (ups, channel is #chromium)
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  301. # [10:44] <hsivonen> nessy: thanks for offending people about what is "Web content". Now I'm not the only one. :-) See also http://hsivonen.iki.fi/web-stack/
  302. # [10:45] <nessy> hsivonen: I was hoping there were some people that support my view :-)
  303. # [10:45] <nessy> I was very amused at that discussion
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  305. # [10:47] <hsivonen> folks at the W3C can be pretty sensitive about getting called on doing stuff that's not Webby in the sense of being part of the interoperable platform implemented in browsers
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  309. # [10:51] <doublec> I'd be surprised if chromium didn't support range requests with video
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  312. # [10:52] <hsivonen> nessy: seen this? http://schepers.cc/webmandering
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  314. # [10:53] <hsivonen> doublec: I'm just guessing here, but it's plausible that getting the index data out of WebM into the browser requires some ffmpeg API that's not in the system ffmpeg
  315. # [10:53] <doublec> hsivonen: ah,right. possibly.
  316. # [10:53] <hsivonen> doublec: based on how the Chromium packaging in Ubuntu is structured, it seems that ffmpeg is still involved
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  318. # [10:54] <hsivonen> I wonder if they'll drop ffmpeg and use the Xiph libs and libvpx directly when they drop H.264
  319. # [10:55] <doublec> I think ffmpeg's webm decoder is faster than libvpx
  320. # [10:55] <doublec> or at least, that was the claim at one point
  321. # [10:55] <doublec> http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/499
  322. # [10:55] <hsivonen> doublec: is Chrome using the ffmpeg VP8 decoder or libvpx-wrapped-in-ffmpeg?
  323. # [10:57] <hsivonen> wow. Dark Shikari's blog has been really quiet for a year now
  324. # [10:57] <doublec> hsivonen: there's a post in april
  325. # [10:58] <doublec> hsivonen: or february - depending on what date format he's using
  326. # [10:58] <hsivonen> doublec: yeah, but that one doesn't say much
  327. # [10:58] <doublec> true
  328. # [10:58] <doublec> maybe he's working on some super secret project
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  335. # [11:10] <hsivonen> doublec: I was wishing Dark Shikari was working on a VP8 encoder
  336. # [11:10] <hsivonen> doublec: but, curiously, he broke the news that another person was
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  344. # [11:21] <hsivonen> I wonder why the git and release activity around the WebM QuickTime Component has ceased
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  351. # [11:31] <Lachy> If Microsoft really does by Skype, then I wonder what will happen to the support for VP8 currently in Skype 5?
  352. # [11:34] <jgraham> It will go the same way as the Linux client?
  353. # [11:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: which way is that?
  354. # [11:35] <jgraham> Well, I can't imagine that Microsoft buying skype is going to *improve* the already third-rate linux support
  355. # [11:36] <jgraham> (the latest download for linux is a version of 2 labelled beta)
  356. # [11:37] <jgraham> (although cynical people might point out that 2-anything is a win over 5-anything)
  357. # [11:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: I thought the 2.x Mac version was first-rate, Linux was second-rate and Windows was third-rate
  358. # [11:37] <Lachy> the Mac Skype 5 sucks. 2.8 is still superior for usability.
  359. # [11:37] <jgraham> Well I haven't really used it on windows much
  360. # [11:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: at least the Mac and Linux versions don't stick junk into Firefox
  361. # [11:38] <jgraham> Well that kind of behaviour seems to be more tolerated on Windows in general
  362. # [11:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: unfortunately, yes
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  366. # [11:49] <hsivonen> jgraham: if they bought Skype for the userbase, it would be silly to drop support for various platforms, since availability on pretty much all platforms is what drives the network effects
  367. # [11:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: They would be insane to drop Mac for that reason
  368. # [11:50] <jgraham> But Linux is already pretty much unsupported
  369. # [11:50] <jgraham> and likely has a negligible fration of the users
  370. # [11:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: hard to tell what effect dropping Linux support would have on userbase
  371. # [11:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/05/microsoft-will-invest-and-support-skype-on-linux/
  372. # [11:56] <hsivonen> anyway, it's pretty clear that the world needs VOIP that's not tied to a particular app vendor
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  374. # [11:56] <hsivonen> too bad SIP sucks
  375. # [11:56] <hsivonen> what happened to libjingle? why didn't it go anywhere?
  376. # [11:56] <jgraham> Hard to tell what "non-Microsoft platforms" menas
  377. # [11:57] <jgraham> I mean they won't drop OSX support
  378. # [11:57] <jgraham> That would be insanity
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  380. # [11:59] <hsivonen> one of the big problems with getting cross-vendor VOIP is that if you leave e.g. the mobile part to traditional vendors in that space, they will want to use a proprietary codec and will let carriers impose ridiculous restrictions
  381. # [12:00] <hsivonen> the other big problem is addressing
  382. # [12:01] <hsivonen> do you require a phone number (what about desktops?), do you require an XMPP ID (how you make people get one)?
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  403. # [12:38] <nessy> hsivonen: those graphics from before make for a fun read :-) not that I really care: for every purpose you can draw something else
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  469. # [16:07] <jgraham> Why is HTMLPropertiesCollection.namedItem a caller and a getter?
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  472. # [16:14] <AryehGregor> erlehmann, although you aren't here anymore: I'd hazard a guess that implementers like free licenses because it means the W3C has no control over the specs in the end, which means the implementers will have de facto control. Non-implementers will have no control over the spec outside the W3C. Also, one or two of the implementers are ideologically committed to open-source type stuff, which practically no companies are.
  473. # [16:15] <AryehGregor> What's this survey that the Team submitted to the AC that Maciej mentioned?
  474. # [16:16] <AryehGregor> Hmm, visited links on this W3C page are lighter than unvisited links. How incredibly confusing.
  475. # [16:17] <AryehGregor> Oh, is this it? http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/doclic201105/
  476. # [16:17] <Lachy> yes
  477. # [16:20] <AryehGregor> Oh, the Intel AC rep is Wayne Carr? Like, the guy who said we shouldn't adopt free licenses because it will allow dictators to suppress their citizens' Internet access? That's a shame.
  478. # [16:20] <Lachy> wtf?
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  482. # [16:21] <Lachy> oh, are you referring to his comments about governements forking the spec and stuff?
  483. # [16:21] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  484. # [16:22] <Lachy> oh, yeah. Perhaps he doesn't realise that governements can and do pass crazy laws all the time without forking specs
  485. # [16:23] <jgraham> That is one possibility
  486. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> Seriously, what stake does Intel have in HTML5 anyway?
  487. # [16:23] <Philip`> Pentiums make the web faster, if I remember the adverts
  488. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> Then they should have left the W3C when they stopped making Pentiums, surely?
  489. # [16:25] <jgraham> There are a large number of Members with no obvious stake in the web
  490. # [16:25] <jgraham> ]I assume that is why W3C does so many non-Web things
  491. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Which is why it's kind of a puzzle how they get to run the W3C. Or really it's not, it's because they give the W3C money.
  492. # [16:26] * AryehGregor keeps the AC survey results open in a tab to look at occasionally as they progress, although being unable to talk about them publicly is kind of annoying
  493. # [16:27] <Lachy> AryehGregor, it's useful to keep such members in the W3C even if they have no obvious stake in current specifications, since a) the W3C gets membership fees from them, and b) such companies with large patent portfolios continue to be bound by the patent policy
  494. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> They're only bound by the patent policy for WGs that they're members of.
  495. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> But even non-HTMLWG members are voting on the HTML5 license.
  496. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> So that part is weak.
  497. # [16:28] <Lachy> Intel is a WG member
  498. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> I know.
  499. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> That's how Wayne Carr answered the HTMLWG survey.
  500. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> As for (a), maybe if the W3C were less bureaucratic, it wouldn't need so much money.
  501. # [16:29] <AryehGregor> Or maybe implementers would be willing to pay more of the bill if they were the ones that controlled the organization.
  502. # [16:29] <Lachy> they need to cover operational costs somehow.
  503. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> What's the W3C's budget? A few tens of millions of dollars, probably? That would be a pretty small burden if split between Microsoft, Apple, and Google.
  504. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> Plus they could get rid of a lot of the operational costs if they didn't have to have decision-making structures independent of implementer consensus.
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  506. # [16:32] <Philip`> All companies have a stake in the web to the extent that they are heavy users of it and benefit from improvements to the platform - I assume that's largely why Google started Chrome (they're not doing it to sell an OS, they're doing it to drive progress in the technology their business depends on) but other companies that haven't bothered doing their own browser development may have a similar desire for improvements
  507. # [16:32] <jgraham> To be fair giving even more control to those with the deepest pockets doesn't sound like a winning move
  508. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> It's not about deep pockets, it's about market share. Mozilla has very shallow pockets compared to Apple or Google, but it has more clout in web standards.
  509. # [16:35] <AryehGregor> Look at WebSQL. Apple+Google+Opera = more money than Microsoft+Mozilla, but nowhere close to enough market share to make it tenable to ignore them, so they lose.
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  592. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> lazyirc, what's the correct behavior when a <script> has both a @src and content? Which is run?
  593. # [19:04] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: @src
  594. # [19:08] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: Cool, thanks.
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  606. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Ah, so the Chromebook announcement has finally come.
  607. # [19:56] <AryehGregor> Seems there's no firm pricing info.
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  609. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> "Chromebook" is the most natural-sounding name my wife and I came up with. Glad they went with it.
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  613. # [20:07] <reggna> AryehGregor: I think they said $28 per user monthly subscription, for businesses.
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  661. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Ooh, we announced ChromeVox too, cool!
  662. # [21:43] <smaug____> TabAtkins: what is ChromeVox?
  663. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> browser-native screen reader.
  664. # [21:44] <bga_> nice
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  667. # [21:50] * weinig is now known as weinig|food
  668. # [21:51] <jgraham> Hmm, there seem to be posts about that from before today
  669. # [21:51] <jgraham> http://www.rightnow.com/accessibility/uncategorized/accessibility-and-google-chrome-os/
  670. # [21:53] <jgraham> Sounds cooler than a web-only device though
  671. # [21:54] <jgraham> (I mean I like the vision of a web-only device but I expect it is a few years early yet)
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  677. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> It works pretty well for me, actually, especially now that I have a desktop to pick up the slack.
  678. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> The fact that it's light and has extra-long battery life makes it a good bathroom computer, personally. ^_^
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  682. # [22:05] <jgraham> Three hundred dollars for a device that is best used on the toilet?
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  684. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> We also use it in the kitchen, for non-toilet-related purposes.
  685. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Come eat at our house!
  686. # [22:10] * TabAtkins needs to learn to use colons better, instead of just overusing dashes.
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  703. # [22:34] <jamesr> Hixie: i don't fully grok the difference between the os ring and the custom ring apis
  704. # [22:37] <jamesr> the difference is that drawCustomRing will not draw a "normal" focus ring if the u-a would normally render one, only a "special" ring?
  705. # [22:41] * weinig|food is now known as weinig
  706. # [22:41] <zcorpan> jamesr: that's my understanding
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  708. # [22:42] <jamesr> that's very weird
  709. # [22:42] <zcorpan> why?
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  712. # [22:47] <cgcardona> TabAtkins: can I send you a pm?
  713. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Yes, of course.
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  758. # [23:57] <jamesr> Hixie: around?
  759. # [23:57] <Hixie> yo
  760. # [23:57] <Hixie> sup
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  762. # [23:58] <jamesr> what about ctx.strokeStyle="focusRing"; ctx.beginPath(); // build path; ctx.somethingElement = e; ctx.stroke();
  763. # [23:59] <jamesr> not sure exactly what to call the element associated with the stroke
  764. # Session Close: Thu May 12 00:00:00 2011

The end :)