/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 27 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:20] <Yuhong> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.browsers.mac/browse_thread/thread/44db96d108412b66/84961a8fa90a26ff?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=netscape+vs+%22html+3.0%22+tables+border+attribute#84961a8fa90a26ff
  10. # [00:21] <Yuhong> (about the history behind issue-155 table-border)
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  14. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> "3D video games are in wide use today." http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/2011/05/bringing-the-first-3d-html5-video-to-the-web-with-firefox-nvidia-and-youtube/
  15. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Um, like which ones?
  16. # [00:34] <Hixie> do they mean in general?
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  19. # [00:41] <AryehGregor> I used to do a lot of gaming and read PC Gamer every month, and I don't know of any 3D video games.
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  21. # [00:47] <Hixie> there have been 3D video games since the early nineties at least
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  23. # [00:47] <Hixie> "Time Traveler" being the first one I know of
  24. # [00:47] <Hixie> dunno about "wide use" though, i'll grant you that
  25. # [00:48] <Hixie> most modern ones tend to be rather elaborate affairs in labs or theme parks
  26. # [00:48] <jamesr> 3ds games?
  27. # [00:48] <jamesr> those are fairly widely used
  28. # [00:49] <jamesr> dunno how well the 3ds is selling
  29. # [00:49] <Hixie> oh yeah, forgot about the 3ds
  30. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> Is that some console? I never followed console gaming.
  31. # [00:49] <Hixie> handheld
  32. # [00:49] <jamesr> nintendo 3ds handheld
  33. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> I know there have been 3D games since the 1990s, but at least on the PC, there have never been any of importance that I know of.
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  36. # [00:51] <jamesr> as of late april nintendo claims to have shipped over 9million games for the 3Ds, presumably all of those 3d
  37. # [00:52] <jamesr> 3.6m devices
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  39. # [00:53] <Lachy> There are some console games that can be played in 3D if you've got a 3D TV.
  40. # [00:54] <Lachy> The PS3 supports for some games
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  56. # [01:10] <jamesr> AryehGregor: i keep replying to that thread without reading the whole thin
  57. # [01:10] <jamesr> i might just be making a fool of myself
  58. # [01:10] <jamesr> ah well
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  61. # [01:16] <zewt> jamesr: i already said that it's sort of silly to think about adding a complex feature to the platform so mirrors don't have to mirror a version of a file with a few lines of code wrapped around it :)
  62. # [01:17] <zewt> not sure whether that works trivially with complex script sets like jquery (eg. to just boilerplate it automatically) or if it needs more work than that
  63. # [01:17] <jamesr> i think it's brave to assume that script authors will step up to the plate here
  64. # [01:17] <jamesr> it's also extra bytes that not all users of the script will want to care about
  65. # [01:17] <zewt> given that the only scripts we're really talking about here are big ones, adding a dozen or two lines of code around them doesn't seem worth worrying about
  66. # [01:18] <jamesr> not necessarily big ones, ones that have expensive top-level statements
  67. # [01:18] <jamesr> it could be a tiny-ass script that does a full DOM walk in some top-level statement
  68. # [01:20] <jamesr> and even small scripts can be expensive to download if the RTT is high
  69. # [01:20] <jamesr> like it is on mobile
  70. # [01:20] <jamesr> so you might want to start the download asap because it takes a few seconds to set up a new HTTP connection
  71. # [01:20] <zewt> you'd also want a little more framework for this sort of thing in any case; for example, to do things like say "load this script, and run this callback when it's available or immediately if it's already loaded"
  72. # [01:21] <zewt> but again it doesn't seem like we need browser-level help there
  73. # [01:22] <zewt> hmm, is it possible for an external script to get its own URL? can't say I've ever tried
  74. # [01:23] <zewt> just thinking of APIs like load_script(url, callback), with the script looking like registerScript(my_url, top_level_function)
  75. # [01:23] <zewt> (without hardcoding the URL in the file)
  76. # [01:26] <zewt> (user-library APIs, that is, not suggesting a browser API like that)
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  81. # [01:36] <heycam> Hixie, ping
  82. # [01:39] <Hixie> yo
  83. # [01:39] <Hixie> sup
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  85. # [01:41] <heycam> hey, I'm trying to work out what to do with Date
  86. # [01:41] <heycam> as used in HTMLInputElement and HTMLTimeElement
  87. # [01:41] <heycam> Dates in JS are mutable
  88. # [01:41] <Hixie> yeah, the attributes in question say to return a new object each time iirc
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  91. # [01:42] <heycam> that sounds like the same kind of undesirable behaviour that led to the "don't allow sequences to be the type of attributes" decision recently
  92. # [01:42] <Yuhong> Hixie: BTW, I hate that the DOM viewer breaks the back button. Can that be fixed?
  93. # [01:43] <heycam> do we have implementations of those Date attributes yet?
  94. # [01:43] <Hixie> heycam: it's bad for sequences because they almost always get used in loops
  95. # [01:43] <Hixie> heycam: for dates, it doesn't seem like a big deal
  96. # [01:43] <heycam> Hixie, true, it's probably not as bad
  97. # [01:43] <Hixie> heycam: especially since dates can be implemented in js engines as a native very fast type
  98. # [01:43] <Hixie> heycam: so creating a new one need not be expensive
  99. # [01:43] <heycam> so what I'm wondering about really is what's the semantics of the IDL type "Date"
  100. # [01:44] <heycam> is it a mutable or immutable value?
  101. # [01:44] <Hixie> it's just an object type, no?
  102. # [01:44] <Hixie> like RegExp or HTMLElement or Object
  103. # [01:44] <Hixie> a reference type, i should say
  104. # [01:44] <heycam> mm
  105. # [01:45] <heycam> so you would be able to modify it
  106. # [01:45] <heycam> but the current uses of the type happen to have "always return a new one" behaviour
  107. # [01:45] <heycam> so would never see the modifications
  108. # [01:45] <heycam> but future APIs could
  109. # [01:45] <Hixie> yeah, you could imagine an attribute that kept a reference to the object so that you could modify it
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  111. # [01:46] <heycam> there's something that doesn't feel quite right about native JS object mutation causing something to happen in the DOM
  112. # [01:46] <Hixie> wow, the webidl and html validators got huge numbers of new warnings since i last regenned the spec a few hours ago
  113. # [01:46] <Hixie> heycam: yeah i don't think we'd ever do that in practice
  114. # [01:47] <heycam> but you would be ok with having a DOM object / future API look at the "current value" of a Date object
  115. # [01:47] <Hixie> "Interface CanvasRenderingContext2D.drawImage() has a non-optional argument after an optional one" that's not a bug is it?
  116. # [01:47] <heycam> yes it is
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  118. # [01:48] <Hixie> it's hard to comment on future APIs without a concrete example
  119. # [01:48] <heycam> sure
  120. # [01:48] <Hixie> why is that not valid now?
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  122. # [01:48] <heycam> what do you want it to mean?
  123. # [01:48] * heycam pulls up the spec
  124. # [01:48] <Yuhong> Hixie: BTW, I hate that the DOM viewer breaks the back button. Can that be fixed?
  125. # [01:48] <Hixie> i thought it used to mean "you can truncate here"
  126. # [01:48] <heycam> ah right
  127. # [01:48] <Hixie> Yuhong: oops, sorry, forgot to reply to you before
  128. # [01:48] <Hixie> Yuhong: how does it break it?
  129. # [01:48] <heycam> you are right, that used to be valid, and I took it out
  130. # [01:49] <heycam> I think it looks quite confusing in the IDL
  131. # [01:49] <Hixie> k
  132. # [01:49] <heycam> as if you can omit just that middle parameter
  133. # [01:49] <Hixie> i can just list all the variants i guess
  134. # [01:49] <heycam> yeah
  135. # [01:49] <heycam> 12 of them then? :)
  136. # [01:49] <Yuhong> Hixie: Try typing in the textbox, and then click back several times.
  137. # [01:49] <Hixie> Yuhong: it seems to work... it goes back through the various states of the iframe, per spec, no?
  138. # [01:50] <Hixie> heycam: some large number :-)
  139. # [01:50] <Yuhong> Hixie: Yea, but the textbox doesn't update making it useless for undo
  140. # [01:51] <Hixie> Yuhong: true. don't hit back :-)
  141. # [01:51] <Yuhong> Hixie: and if you do a lot of typing it is easy to lose track.
  142. # [01:51] <Hixie> heycam: btw i just checked in an update for websockets that introduces an attribute whose value is a type, which might be controversial
  143. # [01:51] <heycam> um
  144. # [01:51] <heycam> what now? :)
  145. # [01:51] <Yuhong> Hixie: I try to open it in a separate tab.
  146. # [01:52] <heycam> Hixie, link?
  147. # [01:52] <Hixie> heycam: lets you pick whether you want binary data to be Blob or ArrayBuffer, so the attribute's allowed values are literally the Blob and ArrayBuffer interface objects
  148. # [01:52] <Yuhong> Hixie: and if you do a lot of typing it is easy to lose track of where you were before.
  149. # [01:52] <Hixie> heycam: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#dom-websocket-binarytype
  150. # [01:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: is there some way to mute the "not yet implemented" warnings? i use unimplemented stuff on purpose :-)
  151. # [01:55] <heycam> Hixie, yeah I'm not sure I like that :)
  152. # [01:55] <heycam> as a general mechanism for mentioning types, it wouldn't handle anything that doesn't have an interface object
  153. # [01:55] <heycam> or primitive types
  154. # [01:55] <heycam> well, I guess you could use Number, Boolean, ...
  155. # [01:55] <Hixie> yeah what i really want is a native type type in js
  156. # [01:55] <Yuhong> BTW, in IE8/9 the browser and document mode if you set them using developer tools override everything else, which is why I do that in a separate tab too.
  157. # [01:56] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I remember Descent had various 3D modes, like a red-green one and a uncrossed-eye one, I think, and that was a fairly important game
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  159. # [01:59] <Hixie> heycam: only 9 drawImage()s it seems, so not so bad
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  162. # [02:00] <Hixie> heycam: what's the practical difference between Foo[] and sequence<Foo> when used as a host object argument type?
  163. # [02:02] <heycam> Hixie, none if there is no way to pass in an actual, existing array host object
  164. # [02:02] <heycam> if you pass in a JS native array both will "do the right thing"
  165. # [02:02] <Hixie> k
  166. # [02:02] <heycam> sequence probably capture the semantics better if there is no way to pass in an array host object
  167. # [02:02] <Hixie> in that case i'm just changing MessagePortArray from a sequence to an array and not making any other changes and it should just be better now
  168. # [02:03] <Hixie> since it's used for attributes and arguments
  169. # [02:03] <heycam> so you can take an existing array host object (got from an attribute) and pass it in as an argument
  170. # [02:03] <heycam> when you pass it in to that argument will the object keep a hold of that object reference?
  171. # [02:03] <heycam> and possibly react to it changing from user script?
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  173. # [02:04] <Hixie> no
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  175. # [02:04] <heycam> so the function will just grab out all the array element values when you call it and do something with them?
  176. # [02:05] <Hixie> yeah
  177. # [02:05] <heycam> ok
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  179. # [02:05] <Hixie> except for MessageEvent.initMessageEvent(), where it's undefined, i guess
  180. # [02:05] <heycam> so there are no practical differences between using array and sequence
  181. # [02:05] <Hixie> a Foo[] attribute always returns a new object right?
  182. # [02:05] <heycam> sequence captures this "passing in a copy, a refererence to it can never be kept"
  183. # [02:05] <heycam> captures it better
  184. # [02:06] <heycam> no, a Foo[] attribute returns what you want it to
  185. # [02:06] <Hixie> ah
  186. # [02:06] <Hixie> so wait, what's the difference between sequence<> and [] for attributes? i thought we were changing this because sequence<>s returned the same object and []s returned a new one
  187. # [02:07] <heycam> no, it's sequences that would always return a new object
  188. # [02:07] <heycam> hence being disallowed
  189. # [02:07] <heycam> a T[] could return a new object or the same one, it's up to you
  190. # [02:07] <Hixie> ah
  191. # [02:07] <Hixie> hm
  192. # [02:07] <heycam> but I would say that returning a new one wouldn't be good, for the reasons we disallow sequences there
  193. # [02:07] <heycam> *a new one always
  194. # [02:08] <Hixie> oh wait, []s can be made readonly right?
  195. # [02:08] <Hixie> that's how we get around this
  196. # [02:08] <heycam> the array object itself, yes
  197. # [02:08] <heycam> its contents can be made read only
  198. # [02:08] <Hixie> k
  199. # [02:08] <heycam> #dfn-read-only-array or something in Web IDL
  200. # [02:08] <Hixie> ok so i just need to make initMessageEvent copy the array and then .ports return a readonly one
  201. # [02:09] <heycam> make it return a read only one, and make it return the same one always, yeah?
  202. # [02:09] <Hixie> and then the only messages dom's idl checker will be giving me are 50 messages about [Supplemental] and one about some other attribute
  203. # [02:09] <Hixie> yeah
  204. # [02:09] <heycam> having the initMessageEvent argument be a sequence<MessagePort> captures the copying semantics
  205. # [02:09] <heycam> so you wouldn't have to state that explicitly
  206. # [02:09] <Hixie> yeah but then i have to have two types
  207. # [02:10] <heycam> you don't need to typedef these btw
  208. # [02:10] <Hixie> oh, good
  209. # [02:10] <Hixie> then i'll just do that then
  210. # [02:10] <heycam> there was a requirement to typedef them ages ago, but that got removed
  211. # [02:10] <Hixie> sweet
  212. # [02:10] <Hixie> that makes this much neater
  213. # [02:10] <heycam> cool
  214. # [02:13] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Minecraft has a 3d mode.
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  216. # [02:22] <Hixie> heycam: fyi, i get 50+ of the first one of these and one of the second:
  217. # [02:22] <Hixie> Line 0 of IDL #0:Extended attribute of Supplemental is unknown in WebIDL.
  218. # [02:22] <Hixie> Line 0 of IDL #0:Extended attribute of ReplaceableNamedProperties is unknown in WebIDL.
  219. # [02:22] <Hixie> [ReplaceableNamedProperties] is apparently http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8241
  220. # [02:23] <Hixie> oh hey you aslked me a question there
  221. # [02:24] <Hixie> hm
  222. # [02:24] <Hixie> heycam: didn't we recently discuss doing this by having Window inherit from something or the other way around or something?
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  224. # [02:26] <heycam> Hixie, what's the context there?
  225. # [02:26] <Hixie> the bug
  226. # [02:27] <Hixie> making <script> foo = 1; status = 2; var bar = 3; </script> do the right thing
  227. # [02:28] <heycam> I do remember discussing something about having an extra object in the proto chain or Window
  228. # [02:28] <heycam> it unfortunately doesn't seem to be paged in to my head at the moment :)
  229. # [02:28] <Hixie> yeah me either
  230. # [02:29] <heycam> I'll read up on it again next week and work out what's going on there
  231. # [02:29] <Hixie> oh well k
  232. # [02:30] <Hixie> er
  233. # [02:30] <Hixie> "k"
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  236. # [02:38] <heycam> Hixie, s/methos/method/ in that recent commit
  237. # [02:38] <Hixie> thanks
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  255. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> I forget - is <link itemprop href> allowed in <body>?
  256. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> Or do you need to use <meta> to embed a link?
  257. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> Never mind, answered my own question.
  258. # [03:17] <TabAtkins> (Yes.)
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  296. # [04:45] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think what guha was suggesting is slightly different
  297. # [04:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: he wants the value to be an item with an id, not a url
  298. # [04:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: as far as i can tell, he just wants to be able to omit the itemscope="" attribute for brevity
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  327. # [06:21] <heycam> Hixie, I added a date type, but I called it "date" rather than "Date" (for consistency with "object" (but inconsistency with "DOMString"!))
  328. # [06:23] <Hixie> why not Date? that's what it is in JS
  329. # [06:24] <heycam> I was going for "built in types are lowercase" (except for DOMString because people complained about that)
  330. # [06:25] <Hixie> i'd go with all primitive types are lowercase
  331. # [06:25] <Hixie> and reference types are capitalised
  332. # [06:26] <Hixie> and then change 'object' to 'Object', mostly because that's how I always spell it anyway
  333. # [06:26] <heycam> hmm
  334. # [06:26] <Hixie> to the point that I've seriously considered a typedef
  335. # [06:26] <Hixie> :-)
  336. # [06:26] <heycam> I didn't particularly want to rename object again!
  337. # [06:26] <Hixie> well i was mostly kidding with that last bit
  338. # [06:26] <heycam> :)
  339. # [06:26] <Hixie> though i do really always type it Object
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  341. # [06:27] <Hixie> at the end of the day I don't really mind either way, but Date would be mildly less inconvenient because it's what I've used already and it's what JS has
  342. # [06:27] <Hixie> so I don't have to have inside-baseball notes about how a "date" is a "Date" and so on
  343. # [06:27] <heycam> all right
  344. # [06:28] <Hixie> from a blackbox perspective, Date isn't really any more native than HTMLElement
  345. # [06:28] <Hixie> if that helps
  346. # [06:28] <Hixie> i mean, it's in a different spec, but that's a conway's law detail
  347. # [06:28] <Hixie> not "real"
  348. # [06:29] <heycam> suppose so
  349. # [06:29] <heycam> I also made it more "value like" for now
  350. # [06:29] <heycam> i.e. returns new objects each time you get the attribute
  351. # [06:29] <heycam> references don't get held by dom objects
  352. # [06:30] <Hixie> k
  353. # [06:32] <heycam> ok, renamed to "Date"
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  371. # [07:41] <JonathanNeal> ahoy
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  418. # [09:39] <zcorpan> what's the procedure to check why webgl doesn't work in latest safari?
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  428. # [09:51] <zcorpan> Hixie: why is binaryType not a string?
  429. # [09:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: xhr's responseType uses strings "arraybuffer" and "blob"
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  443. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so, OK if I flip the Unicode Normalization checker to emitting a warning instead of an error?
  444. # [10:10] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8798e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  445. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also, I chatted with r12a about it and from that I got the impression he kind of hit a brick wall with it in previous discussions with Hixie and/or others in the group
  446. # [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  447. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> thanks
  448. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm not sure what concrete plans Richard or others from the i18n wg have for re-pursusing it
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  450. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> but, I think his and their position remains that it should be a requirement in specs
  451. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> actually, he said specifically that they now recommend late normalization but only for id and class names and selectors
  452. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> and not for content
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  454. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: he pointed me at the following as an example of the kind of reporting he thinks is useful (and that he's implemented himself)
  455. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> http://validator.w3.org/i18n-checker/index?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Frishida.net%2Ftools%2Fi18nchecker%2Ftest.php&async=true
  456. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> in particular, see errors and warnings in the "Detailed report" section
  457. # [10:17] <hsivonen> so the key here is that normalization is a warning rather than an error?
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  459. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: well, along with the fact that it doesn't do checking of content
  460. # [10:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what's the reason not to check content?
  461. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> because they now do not recommend late normalization for content, but only for id and class names and selectors
  462. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> if I understand correctly
  463. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> dunno, maybe they do for early normalization?
  464. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> I have to admit that I'm not clear on what the distinction is between early normalization and late normalization
  465. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> or if that distinction might have relevance to whether to check for it in content rather than just in attribute values
  466. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> but I can ask him again
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  468. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok, r12a says, thet do generally recommend that people save content as NFC
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  470. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> so a validator can warn if they don't, to be helpful
  471. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> but he says there may be occasions where someone who knows what they are doing actually *wants* to write something in NFD
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  474. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> and gives as an example, if, say, you write some javascript to do normalization, you have to be able to write some of the data in NFD for the algorithm to work
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  477. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> so, summary from discussion with him is that, yeah, it's appropriate for it to be a warning (as opposed to an error)
  478. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> and that it's appropriate for that warning to be emitted for content as well as attribute values
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  483. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: r12a points me to this:
  484. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011AprJun/0085.html
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  537. # [13:38] <Shiningnorance> hello
  538. # [13:38] <Shiningnorance> did you guys actually write html5?
  539. # [13:40] <Workshiva> If you mean the actual spec text, Hixie did that, yes
  540. # [13:41] <Shiningnorance> oh man, hixie is actually here!
  541. # [13:42] <Shiningnorance> according to Introducing HTML5, Hixie moved to Google!
  542. # [13:42] <Ms2ger> Well, he did
  543. # [13:43] <Shiningnorance> He's awesome!
  544. # [13:48] <Shiningnorance> It's funny, most of you guys have Pokemon-like names :>
  545. # [13:51] <Philip`> Hixie is everywhere
  546. # [13:52] * hsivonen thought Dashimon was the only pokemon name around here
  547. # [13:53] <Shiningnorance> Oh that may explain why I felt something weird in my pants
  548. # [13:55] <Workshiva> hsivonen: Pokemon names don't actually end in mon
  549. # [13:55] <Workshiva> A better guess would be Digimon
  550. # [13:56] <hsivonen> Workshiva: shows how little I know about *mon
  551. # [14:01] <Workshiva> hsivonen: Then you should be careful about labeling names as pokemon, people might think you're an expert ;)
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  553. # [14:02] * Shiningnorance thought hsivonen was a pokemon expert.
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  555. # [14:06] <hsivonen> Workshiva: sorry
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  560. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> I know all about pokeman
  561. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> I have a 7th-degree experts status in pokeman
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  566. # [14:49] <Workshiva> MikeSmith: I guess that's required to get residence in Japan?
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  586. # [16:18] <Shiningnorance> exit
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  689. # [19:32] * Philip` wonders if someone has mentioned that if there's some way to improve script loading by modifying scripts and you want to load jQuery with it, it'd be much easier to get jQuery modified than to add features into every browser engine to work around hypothetical unmodifiability
  690. # [19:32] * Joins: torvalamo (~loriisacu@12-31-232.connect.netcom.no)
  691. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> I'm afraid you're wrong, jquery has been set in stone
  692. # [19:35] <Philip`> Oh, in that case browsers could just bundle jQuery and maybe even port it all to C++ so they don't have to do run-time compilation at all
  693. # [19:35] <Philip`> So the problem's solved either way
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  695. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: Port it to C++ when browser vendors are moving stuff to JS? :P
  696. # [19:36] <tomasf> implement jQuery in hardware and sell it as a dongle
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  698. # [19:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: JS is overrated
  699. # [19:38] <Philip`> C++ is the language of the future
  700. # [19:39] <jcranmer> Philip`: pssh, everyone knows that basic is where its at
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  702. # [19:40] <Philip`> Someone needs to write a BASIC-to-LLVM compiler, and then attach it to that LLVM-to-JS compiler
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  704. # [19:42] <Philip`> http://stevehanov.ca/blog/index.php?id=92 - ooh
  705. # [19:45] <zewt> Philip`: i did point that out, yes :)
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  708. # [19:46] <Philip`> zewt: Ah, good, then I don't need to have said anything :-)
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  711. # [19:48] <zewt> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-May/031799.html
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  713. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, browser vendors are only moving non-performance-sensitive stuff to JS, right? Parts of jQuery are probably performance-sensitive.
  714. # [19:50] <paul_irish> 10min of playing Snake later... thanks Philip` ;)
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  718. # [19:54] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You like poking sleeping bears I see :)
  719. # [19:54] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  720. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Occasionally.
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  729. # [20:14] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Depends what you mean by perf-sensitive. Moz playing around with NodeList in JS, that seems fairly perf vital.
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  731. # [20:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: The vital point is the gain from being able to inline stuff (and potentially optimize based upon that), the removal of the cost of calling into host code, versus the less good general optimization it'll get from the compiler
  732. # [20:16] <AryehGregor> Interesting point.
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  734. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, that's still written in C++, though
  735. # [20:17] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I saw something from someone (bz?) about experimenting with it.
  736. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> With proxies, but not in JS
  737. # [20:18] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Ah.
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  739. # [20:20] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: An obvious simple optimization made possible by moving, say, Node.prototype.cloneNode(boolean deep) to JS is you can inline it and then possibly remove the irrelevant deep branch if it is called with a constant argument
  740. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> That's one jump. Surely that can't be a significant perf improvement.
  741. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> Conditional jump, I should say.
  742. # [20:21] <AryehGregor> But still, one instruction.
  743. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> Jumps are hard, let's go shopping
  744. # [20:22] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: That depends if you do it as foreach (children as child) if (deep) or the other way around
  745. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Well, so just do it the other way around.
  746. # [20:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also branch prediction isn't perfect, removing jumps can give you gains.
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  749. # [20:29] <gsnedders> Does anyone know what happened in the end wrt all the discussions about having two interoperable implementations before finalizing ES3.1?
  750. # [20:31] <gsnedders> (Because, well, obviously we don't. There are known compatibility issues with actually implementing the spec.)
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  756. # [20:42] <bga_> gsnedders es3 and es5/6?
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  760. # [20:55] <gsnedders> bga_: ES3.1 == ES5
  761. # [20:56] <bga_> es5 nonstrict
  762. # [20:57] <gsnedders> bga_: It's the progressive update before Harmony, so it's all of ES5.
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  764. # [20:57] <bga_> ok
  765. # [21:01] <bga_> i hope - vendors will continue to support es3 (i mean, improve jit, optimizations, etc)
  766. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Vendors use the exact same engine for all JS versions, I hope.
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  768. # [21:03] <bga_> one asi -> bytecode engine and many parsers
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  791. # [22:17] <Hixie> jgraham: getting 500s again
  792. # [22:18] <Ms2ger> You could set anolis up locally ;)
  793. # [22:18] <Hixie> woah, getting 500s even for the non-w3c one this time
  794. # [22:18] <Hixie> Ms2ger: no, i hit CPU limits if i do that
  795. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> Hmmm
  796. # [22:19] <Ms2ger> You could write smaller specs? :)
  797. # [22:19] <Hixie> our specs are already too small and spread out
  798. # [22:19] * AryehGregor is glad he doesn't have to deal with these crazy VPS things, dedicated hosting FTW
  799. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, VPS would be okay if it were pay-by-usage instead of flat fees. Then you could use some extra CPU or memory occasionally and not have to pay much extra for it.
  800. # [22:21] <AryehGregor> nearlyfreespeech.net is pay-by-usage, but it's shared hosting only, alas. They observe that they can absorb Slashdottings at a one-time cost to you of a few dollars, as compared to a fixed-resources model where you'd have to pay a fortune to be able to withstand a Slashdotting.
  801. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> Sounds like that would be somewhat harder to set up with non-shared hosting
  802. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Well, I really meant that the problem is they only allow you to run websites off the servers, not run random processes on them.
  803. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Shared servers where you can run random processes along with other users would work okay.
  804. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> Like a job-server setup.
  805. # [22:25] * AryehGregor estimates that running a low-traffic site on nearlyfreespeech.net that consists solely of a modest amount of static content would cost <$0.10/month, which is nice, because that's in line with how much they actually pay to provide it
  806. # [22:26] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  807. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> I'd totally look into it if I didn't have unlimited root access to two dedicated 16-core servers with 16 GB of RAM each, paid bandwidth of 10Mbps at 95th percentile, and a total of ~2.1TB of raw 10k RPM storage.
  808. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> For free.
  809. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yes, that's about what I paid at first. At this point my montly hosting runs around 50c/month.
  810. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, ah, you use them? So does my brother (ephraimgregor.com), and the site he runs for my mother (writingaboutart.org).
  811. # [22:29] <Hixie> i'd consider moving too if i didn't have unlimited disk, bandwidth, users, domains, etc at dreamhost basically for free
  812. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I've used nfsn for several years.
  813. # [22:29] <Hixie> lunch, bbl
  814. # [22:30] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Pay-by-RAM-usage VPS doesn't seem particularly technically easy, since OSes and applications are generally all designed to eat as much RAM as possible
  815. # [22:30] <Philip`> so it'd be no different to simply paying up-front for a fixed amount
  816. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Philip`, Linux can change the amount of RAM it uses at runtime, for instance if it's a VM and the hypervisor gives it more RAM.
  817. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> (maybe also if you physically install new RAM, but I dunno if the hardware supports that, never tried)
  818. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> There are also "balloon drivers", recently, which try to free up RAM so it can be given back to the host if not enough is free.
  819. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> s/host/hypervisor/
  820. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> So in theory, you could have it configured to automatically request more RAM as needed and forfeit it when not needed.
  821. # [22:32] <Philip`> That seems a bit more indirect than measuring actual usage, but there are certainly VPSes that let you buy more RAM and pay per hour and it's immediately available to the machine
  822. # [22:32] * Quits: msucan (~robod@92.86.247.27) (Quit: .)
  823. # [22:33] <Philip`> and you can probably tie it into some load monitoring system so it changes automatically, if you like living dangerously
  824. # [22:33] <AryehGregor> I dunno if virtualization is awesome enough yet to be able to do this kind of thing seamlessly.
  825. # [22:34] <Philip`> I've used gandi.net and added more RAM/CPU/bandwidth dynamically and it's worked seamlessly
  826. # [22:34] <AryehGregor> Well, unless your host is running clustering or is massively overprovisioned, it's unlikely your RAM is going to be able to upgrade itself by more than a few gigabytes.
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  828. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> Unless they can shift the VM between machines transparently, which I'm under the impression can't be easily done yet, although maybe I'm wrong.
  829. # [22:36] <Philip`> The cloudy way to do it is to split your application across multiple machines so you don't have to worry too much about running out of physical resources on one, I guess
  830. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> I'd argue that VMWare Cluster should count as cloudy too.
  831. # [22:36] * Philip` 's demands are modest enough to not need anything that fancy
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  845. # [23:16] <jamesr> nfsn ftw
  846. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> nfsn?
  847. # [23:18] <jamesr> NearlyFreeSpeech.Net
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  858. # [23:38] <Hixie> AryehGregor: dreamhost's vps lets you change the ram and cpu you're paying for any time you want, and prorates you
  859. # [23:38] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it even has an API, so if i cared i could make anolis switch to 4GB of RAM, run the sync, and then drop down to 400MB again
  860. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> I was about to suggest that.
  861. # [23:38] <Hixie> but it's easier for me to let jgraham maintain anolis :-)
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  864. # [23:43] <Philip`> (Anolis needs 4GB of RAM?)
  865. # [23:46] <Hixie> that was just an example
  866. # [23:46] <Hixie> i think it's CPU it actually needs
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  873. # Session Close: Sat May 28 00:00:00 2011

The end :)